That's usually what happens when the arguments change and the conclusion remains the same. It was the just different twaddle back in the mod 4 preview thread. If he actually gave a toss about the roles he's so fond of playing word games with he's be calling for a drastic gwf damage nerf and a corresponding increase in tankiness.
That's usually what happens when the arguments change and the conclusion remains the same. It was the just different twaddle back in the mod 4 preview thread. If he actually gave a toss about the roles he's so fond of playing word games with he's be calling for a drastic gwf damage nerf and a corresponding increase in tankiness.
What a load of bull, you've spent half the time talking about trs in pvp to distort the discussion. You just hate cws. Also well done, you have a dev quote about talking about mod 3 balance. That's super useful when talking about mod 6 balance. And the damage is only is insane in your mind because you think cw should not be allowed damage, that's your own mental problem. Nothing in the game has ever justified it.
sir, first, iam talking about rogue-pvp to specify the mobility of the class and your ignorance about be striker= have damage, only (like you guys saying control is not only cc, but, in my case, iam correct, you guys dont). just a example, nothing more. i dont will respond the rest because, you have some lecture problems, and that is not only because of my english. in fact, that discussion is a ironic and hilarious situation.
zick, you are lost because that is not a discussion of one thread and two persons. you have 3948649869 cws here - some are trolls, other are confused - and everyone have a specific reason to defend the fact that class be so strong by 5 modules in pve. of course to not go crazy and fall into this infernal dialectic, I "created" a general defense to answer everyone. but of course that still need some work.
What a load of bull, you've spent half the time talking about trs in pvp to distort the discussion. You just hate cws. Also well done, you have a dev quote about talking about mod 3 balance. That's super useful when talking about mod 6 balance. And the damage is only is insane in your mind because you think cw should not be allowed damage, that's your own mental problem. Nothing in the game has ever justified it.
sir, first, iam talking about rogue-pvp to specify the mobility of the class. just a example, nothing more. i dont will respond the rest because, you have some lecture problems, and that is not only because of my english. in fact, that discussion is a ironic and hilarious situation.
zick, you are lost because that is not a discussion of one thread and two persons. you have 3948649869 cws here - some are trolls, other are confused - and everyone have a specific reason to defend the fact that class be so strong by 5 modules in pve. of course to not go crazy and fall into this infernal dialectic, I "created" a general defense to answer everyone. but of course that still need some work.
I understand the defending of class. But when you start suggesting nerfing a class/buffing beyond what's actually needed is a bit crazy. I understand the need for things to be balanced but make it fair across the board. For you it seems like "I HATE CW'S! NERF NERF NERF MAKE THEM UNPLAYABLE NERF NERF NERF!" And that's what I can understand.
ok, about that part. you have some cws saying "why the concept of trinity now"? or "cw should be a "jack of... i dont know". because a note of gc about your changes in renegade, etc.
of course, all that to justify the broken damage of ss over the top all that great things of cw today (not against IF respect the primary function of other classes).
what i say is "Ok, nothing against that. but why dont bring that for all classes? cw be a top damage today is a necessity? no. but you want that. is not the primary function of the class, but you want that. well, i want a sw defender, a paladin striker, a gwf leader, why not?
in general the response is : ah, but cw is a wizard, and wizards can everthing. look the book.
in general that is to defend shield. just to be honest(and consistent).
the nerfs, in this case, is a tradeoff. if you will change the internal hiearchy of the class, that is, cw will be what sws should be, so you will need cut cc, utility and all that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. for exemple, gwf suffer a lot of tradeoffs to have a great damage today. gc give a note about that, +/- like "that damage is because the danger to be a exposed melee etc". and gwf is secundary defender. in short, he LOST your secundary function - not in solo or basic encounters - and that, just that justify your damage.
that players are ready to do that or just want buffs because... the best control is kill or wizards is a mimimi, bla,bla,bla, dnd?
ok, about that part. have some cws saying "why the concept of trinity now"? or "cw should be a "jack of... i dont know". because a note of gc about your changes in renegade, etc.
of course, all that to justify the broken damage of ss over the top all that great things of cw today (not against IF respect the primary function of other classes).
what i say is "Ok, nothing against that. but why dont bring that for all classes? cw be a top damage today is a necessity? no. but you want that. is not the primary function of the class, but you want that. well, i want a sw defender, a paladin striker, a gwf leader, why not?
in general the response is : ah, but cw is a wizard, and wizards can everthing. look the book.
in general that is to defend shield. just to be honest(and consistent).
the nerfs, in this case, is a tradeoff. if you will change the internal hiearchy about the class, that is, cw will be what sws should be, so you will need cut cc, utility and all that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. for exemple, gwf suffer a lot of tradeoffs to have a great damage today. gc give a note about that "that damage is because the danger that the class have today". and gwf is secundary defenders.
that players are redy to do that or just want buffs because... the best control is kill or wizards is a mimimi, bla,bla,bla, dnd?
I think I'm starting to see what you mean. If a CW can do damage why can't like a GWF tank etc.? That..hmm. Well I can speak on half of how I play CW's and other roles similar to this in other games. I would like to do both, control and do damage. and not really sacrifice too much. Right now I really can't spec Thaum/Opp and not sacrifice a good portion of damage. For example, if I was doing average of 10mil a dungeon and I spec'd Opp a little bit and gave up like 2 mil, ok. Not that big of a deal. But giving up what seems like half? That's a bit crazy. Even more so with the control aspect not really being needed. Although it is pretty awesome to freeze SOMETHING for some bit of time (regardless of how small to keep a team going but I digress.
It would be cool to see hybrids in builds and for them to be viable. At the same time that could eliminate other classes. As we saw in mod4-5. You could run VT or even CN with no tank.
So with that do bring EVERYTHING into align not just one class. At the same time, don't eliminate other aspects of a class.
+/-. about balance, you have 2 strands here, ok? lets ignore cws.
the first say: gwf SHOULD TANK because that is your secundary function. but dont should tank like gfs or paladins. because THAT is the primary function of gfs and paladins.
seens fair? seens fair.
the second say (letme be extremist): "why a class need fit a main role? why dont create a paladin striker? a sw controler"? and burn the bra.
seens fair? seens crazy, but fair. the most close to do that (and sounds funny) is unify the trees of every class. you choose a capstone and build the charater like you want (you still need expend x points to got a t5, but can pick any t5).
THAT will solve a lot of criative problems of the game today (and create some imbalance ones, of course... hahah).
if you ask about m4/m5 and run a dungeon w/o tank,,, ok, why roll a defender if you dont have who need be defended? why roll any other class if a single one can do everthing better and/or alone? dont make sense. well, in a single player game, yes.
CW is dps, all the classes have utility powers, get over it.
ok, then lets scale back cw utility(aka cc) level to smth of another dps class, like SW or GWF ok ?
only a completely blind moron could argue cw being THE best pve class til mod6, and it still being one of the best now, as well as being one of top PvP classes(2nd highest win rate among top15 players of each class, only DC is higher, and i suspect that many of DCs do premades instead of soloq)
cw is above average and if you dont see that then you should learn to play your damn class
CW is dps, all the classes have utility powers, get over it.
ok, then lets scale back cw utility(aka cc) level to smth of another dps class, like SW or GWF ok ?
only a completely blind moron could argue cw being THE best pve class til mod6, and it still being one of the best now, as well as being one of top PvP classes(2nd highest win rate among top15 players of each class, only DC is higher, and i suspect that many of DCs do premades instead of soloq)
cw is above average and if you dont see that then you should learn to play your damn class
Being up or down in a prior mod isn't an argument about how balance should be in this mod. Its just nursing a grudge. You know, like a child.
Gwf has a fair amount of utility, they just don't use those powers. Come and get it, avalance, frontline surge, not so fast, roar, punishing charge. sw utility used to be in lifesteal sharing. I don't mind losing the utility. Not much will change. Anyone who has played a cw this mod knows full well that the only real control is oppressive force spam and the rest is just really brief interrupts.
This topic is about pve. Anyway in pvp a tr and an op are clearly better choices and a hr and a gf should normally beat a cw. The number breakdown doesn't mean much. Geared cws smashing pugs from legit with no tenacity and no hp doesn't mean the class is the best.
CW is dps, all the classes have utility powers, get over it.
ok, then lets scale back cw utility(aka cc) level to smth of another dps class, like SW or GWF ok ?
only a completely blind moron could argue cw being THE best pve class til mod6, and it still being one of the best now, as well as being one of top PvP classes(2nd highest win rate among top15 players of each class, only DC is higher, and i suspect that many of DCs do premades instead of soloq)
cw is above average and if you dont see that then you should learn to play your damn class
I swear this thread turned into a CW hate thread
yeah its is nothing but hate and nerfing the cw into the ground. theyll justify it any way they can.
CW is dps, all the classes have utility powers, get over it.
ok, then lets scale back cw utility(aka cc) level to smth of another dps class, like SW or GWF ok ?
only a completely blind moron could argue cw being THE best pve class til mod6, and it still being one of the best now, as well as being one of top PvP classes(2nd highest win rate among top15 players of each class, only DC is higher, and i suspect that many of DCs do premades instead of soloq)
cw is above average and if you dont see that then you should learn to play your damn class
I swear this thread turned into a CW hate thread
yeah its is nothing but hate and nerfing the cw into the ground. theyll justify it any way they can.
Yeah exactly. If we (CW's) have a legitimate reason to complain, regardless of how valid it is, it seems like CW's will always be treated as that kid that should just shut up and never complain.
a secundary striker fill a secundary roll of damage in a party (like the op said, the third place now) is not a legitimate reason to complain. is mimimi. need a tank or healer, etc, is not a legitimate reason to complain. stop the drama. you just have ONE BUG of one paragon fixed.
a secundary striker fill a secundary roll of damage in a party (like the op said, the third place now) is not a legitimate reason to complain. is mimimi. need a tank or healer, etc, is not a legitimate reason to complain. stop the drama. you just have ONE BUG of one paragon fixed.
we are complaining that we dont have enough control here dude. no one is bitching about damage. but when mobs are 90% control immune its ridiculous and needs fixing. its driving us nuts.
a secundary striker fill a secundary roll of damage in a party (like the op said, the third place now) is not a legitimate reason to complain. is mimimi. need a tank or healer, etc, is not a legitimate reason to complain. stop the drama. you just have ONE BUG of one paragon fixed.
we are complaining that we dont have enough control here dude. no one is bitching about damage. but when mobs are 90% control immune its ridiculous and needs fixing. its driving us nuts.
"no one" is hard to say... about control, and only control, you can OVERBUFF cws. have my blessing if serving to some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. is your main role.
1: A geared well played cw should be able to do damage in the range or another dps class who plays well and has the same amount of gear
2:No, you were too strong in prior mods
1: We are talking about balance in game module not mean reversion
2: Well you have all the control and none of us have anything that can add to that kind of utility in anyway so why should you have damage too
1: Hardly true, we all know that tanks do the meaningful control work this mod and the absolute best control a cw can provide is a stun from oppressive force, also plenty of you have utility powers.
2: I read on the wiki you are supposed to be secondary strikers, less damage
1: Sorry there isn't room in clean t2 runs for a half damage dps and this role stuff has only ever been fluff. Interpreting it like its a religous text is mad when the devs have clearly disregarded it in their design choices.
2: But there are lots of cws in pvp.
1: I don't care. I'll grant that its easier to pugsmash on a cw but that doesn't mean anything when it comes to what's the strongest class. tr and op are obviously always better and a gf and and hr should always beat a cw anyway. The worst thing you can say about pvp cw even before the stormspell nerf was that shield provides too much mitigation but its only a real issue in a universe where perfect+ negation and shield and tenacity are different impenetrable levels of protection.
2: Your damage has come from bugs
1: You might not like where the damage is coming from but that doesn't mean it was bugged. Its especially rich coming from people who benefited from deep gash, offhand bonus that gives too much critical chance, roar spam, puppets hitting for millions of damage and I could go on.
2: You should learn to play your class
1: Thanks for adding to the discussion
0
Options
lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
But as I see it the complaints stem from the OP (CW) not blowing everything up like he/she used to before the SS nerf. It was absolutely ridiculous that a passive power was able to contribute such a high percentage of damage. And when it is absolutely the best set-up bar none it is in line for a nerf. Take Aspect of the Lone Wolf as an example. Every single HR was slotting it in Mod 3 prior to the nerf/change as it was far and away the best feature to use. When it never leaves your action bar and is moons better than every other one available you can expect a nerf to come.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
0
Options
romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
I'm curious tho, since Zacazu seems to know this class so well, what other bugs are there that need fixing and wouldn't have a positive effect on the CW? Please everyone, let Zacazu answer, don't reply to this topic until he does.
a secundary striker fill a secundary roll of damage in a party (like the op said, the third place now) is not a legitimate reason to complain. is mimimi. need a tank or healer, etc, is not a legitimate reason to complain. stop the drama. you just have ONE BUG of one paragon fixed.
we are complaining that we dont have enough control here dude. no one is bitching about damage. but when mobs are 90% control immune its ridiculous and needs fixing. its driving us nuts.
"no one" is hard to say... about control, and only control, you can OVERBUFF cws. have my blessing if serving to some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. is your main role.
This really doesn't make sense at all. But it's exactly what a lot of us as CW's are saying. Not all. If you nerf damage just give us more of a CC
I'm curious tho, since Zacazu seems to know this class so well, what other bugs are there that need fixing and wouldn't have a positive effect on the CW? Please everyone, let Zacazu answer, don't reply to this topic until he does.
god, what is the relevance?
zicky: iam not against every cw request. iam against cw be a top damage. remember, control is CC and ONLY CC, not aoe damage.
But as I see it the complaints stem from the OP (CW) not blowing everything up like he/she used to before the SS nerf. It was absolutely ridiculous that a passive power was able to contribute such a high percentage of damage.
You are obviously not very in the know so I'll clear up some misconceptions. cw even before the stormspell nerf was miles behind gwf and sw in pve dps. Not even in the same ballpark. Maybe you knew cws that were absolutely outdamaging everyone else in mod 6 but if you did the other people were either massively outgeared or simply incapable of maximising what their class could do.
Stormspell was a mitigation to a nerf to encounter damage that came in in mod 4. No one ever wanted it. We played the game we given. Like the intimidation gwfs did in mod 4/5.
Being up or down in a prior mod isn't an argument about how balance should be in this mod. Its just nursing a grudge. You know, like a child.
Gwf has a fair amount of utility, they just don't use those powers. Come and get it, avalance, frontline surge, not so fast, roar, punishing charge. sw utility used to be in lifesteal sharing. I don't mind losing the utility. Not much will change. Anyone who has played a cw this mod knows full well that the only real control is oppressive force spam and the rest is just really brief interrupts.
want to know whats in common to all those skills - they are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> useless either in terms of damage(and frontline isnt available for SM) or simply useless , while CW skills work too well with storm spell, and most of the good spells provide cc, like if Daggers, IBS and Daring shout would have cc on top of that
This topic is about pve. Anyway in pvp a tr and an op are clearly better choices and a hr and a gf should normally beat a cw. The number breakdown doesn't mean much. Geared cws smashing pugs from legit with no tenacity and no hp doesn't mean the class is the best.
about everybody is in the same boat and still cw have higher win % than other classes, and amount for 1/4 of players in top100 that shows that cw are above average, and dont need any buffs
Being up or down in a prior mod isn't an argument about how balance should be in this mod. Its just nursing a grudge. You know, like a child.
Gwf has a fair amount of utility, they just don't use those powers. Come and get it, avalance, frontline surge, not so fast, roar, punishing charge. sw utility used to be in lifesteal sharing. I don't mind losing the utility. Not much will change. Anyone who has played a cw this mod knows full well that the only real control is oppressive force spam and the rest is just really brief interrupts.
want to know whats in common to all those skills - they are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> useless either in terms of damage(and frontline isnt available for SM) or simply useless , while CW skills work too well with storm spell, and most of the good spells provide cc, like if Daggers, IBS and Daring shout would have cc on top of that
This topic is about pve. Anyway in pvp a tr and an op are clearly better choices and a hr and a gf should normally beat a cw. The number breakdown doesn't mean much. Geared cws smashing pugs from legit with no tenacity and no hp doesn't mean the class is the best.
about everybody is in the same boat and still cw have higher win % than other classes, and are amount for 1/4 of players in top100 that shows that cw are above average, and dont need any buffs
dc's are well above other classes but thats because they can keep every other class alive very well and not die. cw;s are above average because of pre nerf damage amount. the nerf just happened and leaderboard needs time to let that happen. but most of us arent talking pvp. a lot of us seem to be talking pve where mobs are control immune and damage rules everything.
I'm curious tho, since Zacazu seems to know this class so well, what other bugs are there that need fixing and wouldn't have a positive effect on the CW? Please everyone, let Zacazu answer, don't reply to this topic until he does.
god, what is the relevance?
zicky: iam not against every cw request. iam against cw be a top damage. remember, control is CC and ONLY CC, not aoe damage.
help: just giveup.
Great got to flush that out more. Now I can actually start an actual debate.
So I'm going to take the high ground and not insult you, saying how simple, one track minded, and selfish you actually are. Oh wait...............................................................................................
If we happen to be top damage for a time so be it. At the same time I will say every class depending should have the ability. With that comes the spiderman saying "great power comes great responsibility. If you have a party of 5 people going into a dungeon. All of them should have the ability to do top damage. Makes it fun, fine, ok. But at the same time here comes that great responsibility part. Just because you have the power to do the damage does not mean you should use it. What I'm saying is that you can role into a dungeon (at least in mod6 forward it seems) and face roll it. Yes a DC may be able to out damage a GWF (dramatization here). But if you're going to que for CN (lets imagine its in mod six with the current difficulty level) Then no a DC should play the traditional role as being a healer first then dps second.
In the hypothetical scenario: If you where to go into CN I it was in mod6 and you have an all DC party. And lets say one can DPS spec, then yes its great to have the double role. Being able to switch up like that on the fly (if I'm not mistaken) is at the very heart of most MMORGPs.
Saying you don't think a CW shouldn't be top damage is like saying any other class should not have that ability too. I'll use DC universe as an example. You have a Green Lantern power that was made controller, but could do DPS. Same with there powers. You had the ability to control fire and tank (doesn't make sense but follow me) But they could still do dps and make it work. And be top dps.
I believe everyone should have this ability, but we shouldn't ignore out actual class either.
In terms of CW after being bored and looking back on forum history, CW's might as well be a DPS class. It seems like it's been that way from the start. The problem is now all of a sudden you introduce a dungeon dynamic that should have been there, the need to control. But it's still pointless to do so because the mobs have 90% resist to it. So even if a CW does go full controller spec, by time they perma freeze anything, other classes like GWFs would have already steam rolled it. Not just that, the same GWF class will question WHY we aren't doing damage. See where I'm getting at?
Let me simplify more. People attack us for doing the most damage. Fine. They nerf SS, fine. But you leave us nothing else to go to. At least from I seen at least most other classes have a back up. When you nerf the dps of CW's we don't really have much.......at all.....no CC. It's pointless. So really we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.
So you're whole argument here is full of bs. I the game was made a different way, where it took into account where you only play one class, then we would not have an argument. But seeing as this game doesn't you're argument just comes off childish and pointless.
I'm curious tho, since Zacazu seems to know this class so well, what other bugs are there that need fixing and wouldn't have a positive effect on the CW? Please everyone, let Zacazu answer, don't reply to this topic until he does.
god, what is the relevance?
zicky: iam not against every cw request. iam against cw be a top damage. remember, control is CC and ONLY CC, not aoe damage.
help: just giveup.
Great got to flush that out more. Now I can actually start an actual debate.
So I'm going to take the high ground and not insult you, saying how simple, one track minded, and selfish you actually are. Oh wait...............................................................................................
If we happen to be top damage for a time so be it. At the same time I will say every class depending should have the ability. With that comes the spiderman saying "great power comes great responsibility. If you have a party of 5 people going into a dungeon. All of them should have the ability to do top damage. Makes it fun, fine, ok. But at the same time here comes that great responsibility part. Just because you have the power to do the damage does not mean you should use it. What I'm saying is that you can role into a dungeon (at least in mod6 forward it seems) and face roll it. Yes a DC may be able to out damage a GWF (dramatization here). But if you're going to que for CN (lets imagine its in mod six with the current difficulty level) Then no a DC should play the traditional role as being a healer first then dps second.
In the hypothetical scenario: If you where to go into CN I it was in mod6 and you have an all DC party. And lets say one can DPS spec, then yes its great to have the double role. Being able to switch up like that on the fly (if I'm not mistaken) is at the very heart of most MMORGPs.
Saying you don't think a CW shouldn't be top damage is like saying any other class should not have that ability too. I'll use DC universe as an example. You have a Green Lantern power that was made controller, but could do DPS. Same with there powers. You had the ability to control fire and tank (doesn't make sense but follow me) But they could still do dps and make it work. And be top dps.
I believe everyone should have this ability, but we shouldn't ignore out actual class either.
In terms of CW after being bored and looking back on forum history, CW's might as well be a DPS class. It seems like it's been that way from the start. The problem is now all of a sudden you introduce a dungeon dynamic that should have been there, the need to control. But it's still pointless to do so because the mobs have 90% resist to it. So even if a CW does go full controller spec, by time they perma freeze anything, other classes like GWFs would have already steam rolled it. Not just that, the same GWF class will question WHY we aren't doing damage. See where I'm getting at?
Let me simplify more. People attack us for doing the most damage. Fine. They nerf SS, fine. But you leave us nothing else to go to. At least from I seen at least most other classes have a back up. When you nerf the dps of CW's we don't really have much.......at all.....no CC. It's pointless. So really we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.
So you're whole argument here is full of bs. I the game was made a different way, where it took into account where you only play one class, then we would not have an argument. But seeing as this game doesn't you're argument just comes off childish and pointless.
first point - the last time i will say that - and you guys have a terrible difficulty to understand is that when I talk about "roles" I'm not "debating" I'm not wondering your opinion. I'm showing that contained in the primary sources of the designe of the game that we have access. what work like indeed, what be a leader means, etc.
matters of opinion is you agree or not whether the proposed changes will solve certain problematic appointed by the devs or the community. i disagree about a lot of changes and solutions, all the times, 99% of the time.
the problematic "balance between classes" is not about dcs be paingivers or cws faceroll everthing, but all classes be equally valued in their particularities.
"Faceroll" is your concept of fun, which is quite relative.
If you believe that control of your control wizard is not being valued or other class is better controller than you and put some other things on the table (like cws still do in some cases), that is another history. burk said something about the class ignore some cc resist of the mobs. seens fair.
first point - the last time i will say that - and you guys have a terrible difficulty to understand is that when I talk about "roles" I'm not "debating" I'm not wondering your opinion. I'm showing that contained in the primary sources of the designe of the game that we have access. what work like indeed, what be a leader means, etc.
matters of opinion is you agree or not whether the proposed changes will solve certain problematic appointed by the devs or the community.
the problematic "balance between classes" is not about dcs be paingivers or cws faceroll everthing, but all classes be equally valued in their particularities.
"Faceroll" is your concept of fun, which is quite relative.
If you believe that control of your control wizard is not being valued or other class is better controller than you and put some other things on the table (like cws still do in some cases), that is another history. burk said about the class ignore some cc resist of the mobs. seens fair.
To your first point, you're basically defeating your own argument (not to insult but you're proving mine and a lot of other people that are saying the exact same thing) Based on what we have to work with we are using what we have to work with. If dps is all we can do and you limit that what else is there? If our CC is useless, then we are going to make the best of our class. And if that means doing damage regardless of how top it is well so be it.
I think I see what you mean in your second point but you have to give a bit more detail.
To your third point....Yes and no. We are all pretty much subject to the devs and how they create a class. Based on what they do we adjust to. Cause and effect. Again since they made a mod where CC really doesn't matter, we need to do more damage to justify our point as a class. Or for any class for that matter. But (again correct me if I'm wrong GWF players) when they took away the ability to be more tanky, you had something major to fall back on. DPS, which is really our department. Fair enough. But I did hear from some GWFs that it was totally unfair taking that away, even more so during leveling up from 61-70.
Nah face rolling is not my concept of fun, actually it sucks all the way around. It actually defeats the whole point of a MMORPG; to struggle and over come a challenge with a party. Something which DnD is known for (if I'm correct) for doing which the devs are....lets say, ignoring blatantly it seems due to the heavy lack of acknowledgement.
Oh I know CW is being valued. A lot of times more valued than DC/Pallies/Tanks which keep us a live. It's pretty bad in some cases. BUT this is how the game is made. So we have to roll with it. I'm welcome to change. Hell nerf our damage, but give us something to use that makes us relevant to use, If you nerf damage give us some CC. Like actual CC. If no CC buff our damage or give some compensation in the nerf of SS. (though it isn't that bad)
Comments
Makes sense lol. Gotta love the hate.
sir, first, iam talking about rogue-pvp to specify the mobility of the class and your ignorance about be striker= have damage, only (like you guys saying control is not only cc, but, in my case, iam correct, you guys dont). just a example, nothing more. i dont will respond the rest because, you have some lecture problems, and that is not only because of my english. in fact, that discussion is a ironic and hilarious situation.
zick, you are lost because that is not a discussion of one thread and two persons. you have 3948649869 cws here - some are trolls, other are confused - and everyone have a specific reason to defend the fact that class be so strong by 5 modules in pve. of course to not go crazy and fall into this infernal dialectic, I "created" a general defense to answer everyone. but of course that still need some work.
I understand the defending of class. But when you start suggesting nerfing a class/buffing beyond what's actually needed is a bit crazy. I understand the need for things to be balanced but make it fair across the board. For you it seems like "I HATE CW'S! NERF NERF NERF MAKE THEM UNPLAYABLE NERF NERF NERF!" And that's what I can understand.
of course, all that to justify the broken damage of ss over the top all that great things of cw today (not against IF respect the primary function of other classes).
what i say is "Ok, nothing against that. but why dont bring that for all classes? cw be a top damage today is a necessity? no. but you want that. is not the primary function of the class, but you want that. well, i want a sw defender, a paladin striker, a gwf leader, why not?
in general the response is : ah, but cw is a wizard, and wizards can everthing. look the book.
in general that is to defend shield. just to be honest(and consistent).
the nerfs, in this case, is a tradeoff. if you will change the internal hiearchy of the class, that is, cw will be what sws should be, so you will need cut cc, utility and all that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. for exemple, gwf suffer a lot of tradeoffs to have a great damage today. gc give a note about that, +/- like "that damage is because the danger to be a exposed melee etc". and gwf is secundary defender. in short, he LOST your secundary function - not in solo or basic encounters - and that, just that justify your damage.
that players are ready to do that or just want buffs because... the best control is kill or wizards is a mimimi, bla,bla,bla, dnd?
I think I'm starting to see what you mean. If a CW can do damage why can't like a GWF tank etc.? That..hmm. Well I can speak on half of how I play CW's and other roles similar to this in other games. I would like to do both, control and do damage. and not really sacrifice too much. Right now I really can't spec Thaum/Opp and not sacrifice a good portion of damage. For example, if I was doing average of 10mil a dungeon and I spec'd Opp a little bit and gave up like 2 mil, ok. Not that big of a deal. But giving up what seems like half? That's a bit crazy. Even more so with the control aspect not really being needed. Although it is pretty awesome to freeze SOMETHING for some bit of time (regardless of how small to keep a team going but I digress.
It would be cool to see hybrids in builds and for them to be viable. At the same time that could eliminate other classes. As we saw in mod4-5. You could run VT or even CN with no tank.
So with that do bring EVERYTHING into align not just one class. At the same time, don't eliminate other aspects of a class.
the first say: gwf SHOULD TANK because that is your secundary function. but dont should tank like gfs or paladins. because THAT is the primary function of gfs and paladins.
seens fair? seens fair.
the second say (letme be extremist): "why a class need fit a main role? why dont create a paladin striker? a sw controler"? and burn the bra.
seens fair? seens crazy, but fair. the most close to do that (and sounds funny) is unify the trees of every class. you choose a capstone and build the charater like you want (you still need expend x points to got a t5, but can pick any t5).
THAT will solve a lot of criative problems of the game today (and create some imbalance ones, of course... hahah).
if you ask about m4/m5 and run a dungeon w/o tank,,, ok, why roll a defender if you dont have who need be defended? why roll any other class if a single one can do everthing better and/or alone? dont make sense. well, in a single player game, yes.
ok, then lets scale back cw utility(aka cc) level to smth of another dps class, like SW or GWF ok ?
only a completely blind moron could argue cw being THE best pve class til mod6, and it still being one of the best now, as well as being one of top PvP classes(2nd highest win rate among top15 players of each class, only DC is higher, and i suspect that many of DCs do premades instead of soloq)
cw is above average and if you dont see that then you should learn to play your damn class
I swear this thread turned into a CW hate thread
Gwf has a fair amount of utility, they just don't use those powers. Come and get it, avalance, frontline surge, not so fast, roar, punishing charge. sw utility used to be in lifesteal sharing. I don't mind losing the utility. Not much will change. Anyone who has played a cw this mod knows full well that the only real control is oppressive force spam and the rest is just really brief interrupts.
This topic is about pve. Anyway in pvp a tr and an op are clearly better choices and a hr and a gf should normally beat a cw. The number breakdown doesn't mean much. Geared cws smashing pugs from legit with no tenacity and no hp doesn't mean the class is the best.
yeah its is nothing but hate and nerfing the cw into the ground. theyll justify it any way they can.
Yeah exactly. If we (CW's) have a legitimate reason to complain, regardless of how valid it is, it seems like CW's will always be treated as that kid that should just shut up and never complain.
a secundary striker fill a secundary roll of damage in a party (like the op said, the third place now) is not a legitimate reason to complain. is mimimi. need a tank or healer, etc, is not a legitimate reason to complain. stop the drama. you just have ONE BUG of one paragon fixed.
we are complaining that we dont have enough control here dude. no one is bitching about damage. but when mobs are 90% control immune its ridiculous and needs fixing. its driving us nuts.
"no one" is hard to say... about control, and only control, you can OVERBUFF cws. have my blessing if serving to some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. is your main role.
2:No, you were too strong in prior mods
1: We are talking about balance in game module not mean reversion
2: Well you have all the control and none of us have anything that can add to that kind of utility in anyway so why should you have damage too
1: Hardly true, we all know that tanks do the meaningful control work this mod and the absolute best control a cw can provide is a stun from oppressive force, also plenty of you have utility powers.
2: I read on the wiki you are supposed to be secondary strikers, less damage
1: Sorry there isn't room in clean t2 runs for a half damage dps and this role stuff has only ever been fluff. Interpreting it like its a religous text is mad when the devs have clearly disregarded it in their design choices.
2: But there are lots of cws in pvp.
1: I don't care. I'll grant that its easier to pugsmash on a cw but that doesn't mean anything when it comes to what's the strongest class. tr and op are obviously always better and a gf and and hr should always beat a cw anyway. The worst thing you can say about pvp cw even before the stormspell nerf was that shield provides too much mitigation but its only a real issue in a universe where perfect+ negation and shield and tenacity are different impenetrable levels of protection.
2: Your damage has come from bugs
1: You might not like where the damage is coming from but that doesn't mean it was bugged. Its especially rich coming from people who benefited from deep gash, offhand bonus that gives too much critical chance, roar spam, puppets hitting for millions of damage and I could go on.
2: You should learn to play your class
1: Thanks for adding to the discussion
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
This really doesn't make sense at all. But it's exactly what a lot of us as CW's are saying. Not all. If you nerf damage just give us more of a CC
god, what is the relevance?
zicky: iam not against every cw request. iam against cw be a top damage. remember, control is CC and ONLY CC, not aoe damage.
help: just giveup.
You are obviously not very in the know so I'll clear up some misconceptions. cw even before the stormspell nerf was miles behind gwf and sw in pve dps. Not even in the same ballpark. Maybe you knew cws that were absolutely outdamaging everyone else in mod 6 but if you did the other people were either massively outgeared or simply incapable of maximising what their class could do.
Stormspell was a mitigation to a nerf to encounter damage that came in in mod 4. No one ever wanted it. We played the game we given. Like the intimidation gwfs did in mod 4/5.
want to know whats in common to all those skills - they are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> useless either in terms of damage(and frontline isnt available for SM) or simply useless , while CW skills work too well with storm spell, and most of the good spells provide cc, like if Daggers, IBS and Daring shout would have cc on top of that
about everybody is in the same boat and still cw have higher win % than other classes, and amount for 1/4 of players in top100 that shows that cw are above average, and dont need any buffs
Great got to flush that out more. Now I can actually start an actual debate.
So I'm going to take the high ground and not insult you, saying how simple, one track minded, and selfish you actually are. Oh wait...............................................................................................
If we happen to be top damage for a time so be it. At the same time I will say every class depending should have the ability. With that comes the spiderman saying "great power comes great responsibility. If you have a party of 5 people going into a dungeon. All of them should have the ability to do top damage. Makes it fun, fine, ok. But at the same time here comes that great responsibility part. Just because you have the power to do the damage does not mean you should use it. What I'm saying is that you can role into a dungeon (at least in mod6 forward it seems) and face roll it. Yes a DC may be able to out damage a GWF (dramatization here). But if you're going to que for CN (lets imagine its in mod six with the current difficulty level) Then no a DC should play the traditional role as being a healer first then dps second.
In the hypothetical scenario: If you where to go into CN I it was in mod6 and you have an all DC party. And lets say one can DPS spec, then yes its great to have the double role. Being able to switch up like that on the fly (if I'm not mistaken) is at the very heart of most MMORGPs.
Saying you don't think a CW shouldn't be top damage is like saying any other class should not have that ability too. I'll use DC universe as an example. You have a Green Lantern power that was made controller, but could do DPS. Same with there powers. You had the ability to control fire and tank (doesn't make sense but follow me) But they could still do dps and make it work. And be top dps.
I believe everyone should have this ability, but we shouldn't ignore out actual class either.
In terms of CW after being bored and looking back on forum history, CW's might as well be a DPS class. It seems like it's been that way from the start. The problem is now all of a sudden you introduce a dungeon dynamic that should have been there, the need to control. But it's still pointless to do so because the mobs have 90% resist to it. So even if a CW does go full controller spec, by time they perma freeze anything, other classes like GWFs would have already steam rolled it. Not just that, the same GWF class will question WHY we aren't doing damage. See where I'm getting at?
Let me simplify more. People attack us for doing the most damage. Fine. They nerf SS, fine. But you leave us nothing else to go to. At least from I seen at least most other classes have a back up. When you nerf the dps of CW's we don't really have much.......at all.....no CC. It's pointless. So really we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.
So you're whole argument here is full of bs. I the game was made a different way, where it took into account where you only play one class, then we would not have an argument. But seeing as this game doesn't you're argument just comes off childish and pointless.
matters of opinion is you agree or not whether the proposed changes will solve certain problematic appointed by the devs or the community. i disagree about a lot of changes and solutions, all the times, 99% of the time.
the problematic "balance between classes" is not about dcs be paingivers or cws faceroll everthing, but all classes be equally valued in their particularities.
"Faceroll" is your concept of fun, which is quite relative.
If you believe that control of your control wizard is not being valued or other class is better controller than you and put some other things on the table (like cws still do in some cases), that is another history. burk said something about the class ignore some cc resist of the mobs. seens fair.
To your first point, you're basically defeating your own argument (not to insult but you're proving mine and a lot of other people that are saying the exact same thing) Based on what we have to work with we are using what we have to work with. If dps is all we can do and you limit that what else is there? If our CC is useless, then we are going to make the best of our class. And if that means doing damage regardless of how top it is well so be it.
I think I see what you mean in your second point but you have to give a bit more detail.
To your third point....Yes and no. We are all pretty much subject to the devs and how they create a class. Based on what they do we adjust to. Cause and effect. Again since they made a mod where CC really doesn't matter, we need to do more damage to justify our point as a class. Or for any class for that matter. But (again correct me if I'm wrong GWF players) when they took away the ability to be more tanky, you had something major to fall back on. DPS, which is really our department. Fair enough. But I did hear from some GWFs that it was totally unfair taking that away, even more so during leveling up from 61-70.
Nah face rolling is not my concept of fun, actually it sucks all the way around. It actually defeats the whole point of a MMORPG; to struggle and over come a challenge with a party. Something which DnD is known for (if I'm correct) for doing which the devs are....lets say, ignoring blatantly it seems due to the heavy lack of acknowledgement.
Oh I know CW is being valued. A lot of times more valued than DC/Pallies/Tanks which keep us a live. It's pretty bad in some cases. BUT this is how the game is made. So we have to roll with it. I'm welcome to change. Hell nerf our damage, but give us something to use that makes us relevant to use, If you nerf damage give us some CC. Like actual CC. If no CC buff our damage or give some compensation in the nerf of SS. (though it isn't that bad)