"To your first point, you're basically defeating your own argument (not to insult but you're proving mine and a lot of other people that are saying the exact same thing) Based on what we have to work with we are using what we have to work with. If dps is all we can do and you limit that what else is there? If our CC is useless, then we are going to make the best of our class. And if that means doing damage regardless of how top it is well so be it."
my god, just stop... the main role of cws is not about damage. is about control. control is not damage (all that is not a discussion, or my words).
if your control is uselees - you say that, your opinion - so your control need be buffed. if a secundary controller have better control, need be nerfed. that is all. dont scream "xeque mate" after lose a poker match.
"To your first point, you're basically defeating your own argument (not to insult but you're proving mine and a lot of other people that are saying the exact same thing) Based on what we have to work with we are using what we have to work with. If dps is all we can do and you limit that what else is there? If our CC is useless, then we are going to make the best of our class. And if that means doing damage regardless of how top it is well so be it."
my god, just stop... the main role of cws is not about damage. is about control. control is not damage. if your control is uselees - you say that - so your control need be buffed. that is all. dont scream "xeque mate" after lose a poker match.
"first point - the last time i will say that - and you guys have a terrible difficulty to understand is that when I talk about "roles" I'm not "debating" I'm not wondering your opinion. I'm showing that contained in the primary sources of the designe of the game that we have access. what work like indeed, what be a leader means, etc." - Zacazu
IN THE DESIGN OF THE GAME. That means taking into account this game and how it was designed. So within that realm, yes we do damage and so does our control. At the same time. Why can't we have that option to do damage. Just like having the ability to tank as a DPS? And I'm not saying that, EVERYONE IS. The most we do is for about 1-3 seconds? Most of the time like I said it's pointless because things are already dead.
What I'm saying is if you nerf one give us something on the other end of the spectrum. If you nerf our damage give us more CC and vice versa. I know what the main role of a CW is. Matter a fact I say when people are looking for a dps in PE, CC CW or dps CC CW cause I do control what little I can while mixing some secondary dps. I'm not screaming "xeque mate" as you so put it after a loss in a poker match. I'm screaming at the sudden change in rules right before I decide to either go all in or fold in the middle of the game for that matter.
Again it still seems like right now, which most people in MMO's have gotten past, you simply don't like a support class doing dps. And that's something you're going to have to live with. If it pisses you off like one person said on here, make your class better. We have to do it, why should you be the exception? It's almost like you're taking the current way things are fixed as an approach to "balancing" CW's: We will basically break everything about this one thing that is op instead of trying to fix it. Then do nothing about it.
in the designe of the game - the role of the classes and what that means second the devs notes - you guys are CONTROLLERS. gf is a defender, rogues is a striker, dc is a leader, cws are CONTROLLERS. be striker is your SECUNDARY ROLE, competitive in top because of some bugs.
why buff the secundary role until the class destroy the primary role of others 4 classes if you can FIRST TRY buff the primary role - control - being cw the SINGLE MAIN CONTROLLER OF THE GAME and NO ONE can complain about that? (next module, maybe he will have a new by the way)
if you like that type of argument that i used here, look for willian lane craig on youtube. just a hint and have fun. hahahah
what point? bad arguments (trying imitad my style) and callme a liar - liar? what is next histerical response? accuse me of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>? ahahha. I stopped with both
romotheone, will be really hard do a list after the dev tracker be excluded. during m2/m3 you have that problem:
some cws - like me - do 100/150k by shard in dungeons just explointing feats like ww,ms and AE. (in my defence, i dont know that are bugs in the past). and like you can see, my cw have a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gear.
i dont need know that to say: if a controller are doing more damage than a striker, need be fixed (if that is because of bugs) OR TONED DOWN.
Post edited by zacazu on
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
edited June 2015
:DDDDDDD I'm actually laughing now IRL. Did you seriously upload and post a mod 3 screenshot, you used it as solid ground for your argument and this is what you base your whole outcry on? Get the f. out of here you troll :DDDD Everything you say from now on has exactly 0 value here. This is exactly what I meant when I referred to Strumslinger filtering <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that is being forwarded to the dev team.
what iam saying here is: the differencial of cw damage aways come come to bugs, OF COURSE that include the PAST (so the nerfs in shard is not a argument pro the fixed SS by the way). EVERY CW IS A FUNCTIONAL ILLITERATE?
my god, that is surreal! iam a "good writer" but dont know english, you guys know that language but can not fallow a minimally complex reasoning line, a figure of language. NOTHING. my... god... that is soooooooo frustrating.
chega de gringo burro, foda-se este thread. É coincidência que esse povo defenda o dano bizarro que esta classe teve durante toda a sua história baseado em interpretações textuais primárias e em confusões quanto ao significado de determinadas termos em diferentes jogos e fontes? não, não é. TUDO faz sentido agora.
[...] to struggle and over come a challenge with a party. Something which DnD is known for (if I'm correct) [...]
Party - yes. Struggle... ...well, this first of all depends on your DM. Autowin DMs are just as boring as sadistic ones, and tend to play with very small groups. But basically, death is a way more expensive thing in P&P AD&D...
Also, typically the struggle is more on the riddle-solving and tactical side. Not on learning the fatest way from the campfire back to where the critter OSKed you by endless repetition...
a secundary striker fill a secundary roll of damage in a party (like the op said, the third place now) is not a legitimate reason to complain. is mimimi. need a tank or healer, etc, is not a legitimate reason to complain. stop the drama. you just have ONE BUG of one paragon fixed.
Probably this "secondary role striker" thingy is decorated all over your room walls, isnt it?
"mimimi" is your doing and some others whose highjacking every CW topic...
It wasn't bug it was obviously a nerf! And obviously from pvp balancing or something like that.
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
I'm curious tho, since Zacazu seems to know this class so well, what other bugs are there that need fixing and wouldn't have a positive effect on the CW? Please everyone, let Zacazu answer, don't reply to this topic until he does.
god, what is the relevance?
zicky: iam not against every cw request. iam against cw be a top damage. remember, control is CC and ONLY CC, not aoe damage.
help: just giveup.
Lol.
And I am against this big difference between dps classes. Even if I admit that CWs should do less dmg (nope) than others I am against this big difference where some classes doubles others dmg.
I support a balanced maximum difference between dps classes. Lets say 10-20%.
Which can be different in dungeons where lots of aoe or single target but not double dmg...
Post edited by commanderdata002 on
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
what point? bad arguments (trying imitad my style) and callme a liar - liar? what is next histerical response? accuse me of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>? ahahha. I stopped with both
romotheone, will be really hard do a list after the dev tracker be excluded. during m2/m3 you have that problem:
some cws - like me - do 100/150k by shard in dungeons just explointing feats like ww,ms and AE. (in my defence, i dont know that are bugs in the past). and like you can see, my cw have a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gear.
i dont need know that to say: if a controller are doing more damage than a striker, need be fixed (if that is because of bugs) OR TONED DOWN.
lol
It was not a bug.
And again striker means only higher single target dmg not the dps masters of the Universe as it exists in someone's head.
CW dmg was nerfed because SWs had to be introduced as some dps arcane caster class.
Mod3 CW was pretty strong and few would chose Warlock over it as arcane caster type.
Storm spell was some compensation for shard, oppforce burst dmg.
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
[...] to struggle and over come a challenge with a party. Something which DnD is known for (if I'm correct) [...]
Party - yes. Struggle... ...well, this first of all depends on your DM. Autowin DMs are just as boring as sadistic ones, and tend to play with very small groups. But basically, death is a way more expensive thing in P&P AD&D...
Also, typically the struggle is more on the riddle-solving and tactical side. Not on learning the fatest way from the campfire back to where the critter OSKed you by endless repetition...
Ah ok thanks for clearing that up. I'm pretty ignorant in the paper/pen D&D. So the knowledge drop was appreciated
what point? bad arguments (trying imitad my style) and callme a liar - liar? what is next histerical response? accuse me of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>? ahahha. I stopped with both
romotheone, will be really hard do a list after the dev tracker be excluded. during m2/m3 you have that problem:
some cws - like me - do 100/150k by shard in dungeons just explointing feats like ww,ms and AE. (in my defence, i dont know that are bugs in the past). and like you can see, my cw have a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gear.
i dont need know that to say: if a controller are doing more damage than a striker, need be fixed (if that is because of bugs) OR TONED DOWN.
lol
It was not a bug.
And again striker means only higher single target dmg not the dps masters of the Universe as it exists in someone's head.
CW dmg was nerfed because SWs had to be introduced as some dps arcane caster class.
Mod3 CW was pretty strong and few would chose Warlock over it as arcane caster type.
Storm spell was some compensation for shard, oppforce burst dmg.
Yeah as you can tell this is going to be one giant circle jerk. The guy just is narrow minded, and really starting to seem like a troll.
1- One of the primary questions we received was Regarding the design goal of the Great Weapon Fighter. From a systems perspective design, the Great Weapon Fighter is designed to be the class that excels at AoE DPS and taking hits while providing a bit of control to the fight.
FORGET GWF; focus here: how a class can "excels in aoe dps" and just providing a bit control if aoe dps is control? how a striker can be designe to excels in aoe dps if be striker in this game is excels in single target?
2 -Control Wizards filled too many roles in groups and were more often than not the “right” choice for a group over other class, and this was very frustrating for people who played other classes.
Overall the changes will leave Control Wizards with more direct competition in group content and will let them more strongly fill the position of controlling all the foes on the battle field or doing heavy damage, but not both at once.
even if you say "Ok, aoe damage is a expectre of control" - consequence of the big cap, you have less monsters now - have aoe damage in this game is a expectre to a striker too, and, by every definition, striker is the guy that kill enemies fast. that means KILL MULTIPLES FAST IS THE PAPER OF A STRIKER, 1 or 10. and cws are secundary in that.
no one NEVER disagree about cw be a primary controller. just dont understand or accept the definition of controller, justifyng the inbalance of the secundary function - striker.
that is not a matter of opinion. is simple interpretation! and the nerf/fix is there! what is the projection?
This is primarily an AoE nerf in practice, but in some rare cases could affect single target rotations as well depending on your attack frequency.
if you DONT AGREE to the solution or dont see the problem, that is another discussion.
eu não estou falando sobre o cw, seu animal. hahahha.
o lugar do cw é a consequência lógica do argumento. eu estou falando sobre SIGNIFICADO DOS CONCEITOS. como você pode discutir qualquer assunto se você não consegue sequer entender o significado dos conceitos ou ANTES, muito antes, a mera intenção de um texto? MEU DEUS; É A DEFINIÇÃO ENCARNADA DO QUE É SER UM ANALFABETO FUNCIONAL (ou o troll mais sem vergonha que eu já vi).
alfabetizados e honestos entenderam. cansei de surrar idiota, já disse.
Post edited by zacazu on
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
1- One of the primary questions we received was Regarding the design goal of the Great Weapon Fighter. From a systems perspective design, the Great Weapon Fighter is designed to be the class that excels at AoE DPS and taking hits while providing a bit of control to the fight.
FORGET GWF; focus here: how a class can "excels in aoe dps" and just providing a bit control if aoe dps is control? how a striker can be designe to excels in aoe dps if be striker in this game is excels in single target?
2 -Control Wizards filled too many roles in groups and were more often than not the “right” choice for a group over other class, and this was very frustrating for people who played other classes.
Overall the changes will leave Control Wizards with more direct competition in group content and will let them more strongly fill the position of controlling all the foes on the battle field or doing heavy damage, but not both at once.
even if you say "Ok, aoe damage is a expectre of control" - consequence of the big cap, you have less monsters now - have aoe damage in this game is a expectre to a striker too, and, by every definition, striker is the guy that kill enemies fast. that means KILL MULTIPLES FAST IS THE PAPER OF A STRIKER, 1 or 10. and cws are secundary in that.
no one NEVER disagree about cw be a primary controller. just dont understand or accept the definition of controller, justifyng the inbalance of the secundary function - striker.
that is not a matter of opinion. is simple interpretation! and the nerf/fix is there! what is the projection?
This is primarily an AoE nerf in practice, but in some rare cases could affect single target rotations as well depending on your attack frequency.
if you DONT AGREE to the solution or dont see the problem, that is another discussion.
Well all of us (or at least most of us as CW's) understand this more than anything. Even more so the CW's the completely spec in CC.
The problem is though there is contradiction in what they said.
They state a GWF is suppose to excel at AoE dps. But they don't (correct me if I'm wrong gwf players) Like the most I've seen is them spin around in a circle and try to hit everything at once. So far the only reason why I see they do so much damage is due to the buffs they received in damage because of mod6 (the amount of crit strike is crazy).
With regards to CW's and there notes in general. All of what they said in theory does not reflect what they did in practice. If anything it's the opposite.
zick, that is a response is for a specific niche that still bring back that discussion using ironies and that bad tentatives of trollings. not against you or the majority of cws. cleare?
that " gwf is supposed to excel at aoe dps" etc is just to show the concept of striker, controller, etc. not to discuss gwfs or my opinion about how the class should work." is the dev designe, cleare? can work or not.
if you want know about gwfs today, every big damage of the class come to multiplicative boosts. if you hit one, will do great damage against one, if hit 5, the same big damage against 5. 90% of the powers have the possibility to hit between 3-5-x. ok?
now you have bad gwfs and bad controllers spreading the enemies. gwf - destroyer - have a great dps damage, but is not a controller to manipulate the board OR tank enough today to sustain the threat w/o suffer a big counter. now he need both, a defender and a controller working together.
And whats more it has severely weakened icy terrain and conduit of ice in practice.
The damage of those two was pathetic to begin with and their primary use was to proc SS.
And seeing as CoI cant even freeze anything i'm having hard time in justifying keeping it ( IT is mandatory for the freeze even as weak as it is ).
Comments
my god, just stop... the main role of cws is not about damage. is about control. control is not damage (all that is not a discussion, or my words).
if your control is uselees - you say that, your opinion - so your control need be buffed. if a secundary controller have better control, need be nerfed. that is all. dont scream "xeque mate" after lose a poker match.
"first point - the last time i will say that - and you guys have a terrible difficulty to understand is that when I talk about "roles" I'm not "debating" I'm not wondering your opinion. I'm showing that contained in the primary sources of the designe of the game that we have access. what work like indeed, what be a leader means, etc." - Zacazu
IN THE DESIGN OF THE GAME. That means taking into account this game and how it was designed. So within that realm, yes we do damage and so does our control. At the same time. Why can't we have that option to do damage. Just like having the ability to tank as a DPS? And I'm not saying that, EVERYONE IS. The most we do is for about 1-3 seconds? Most of the time like I said it's pointless because things are already dead.
What I'm saying is if you nerf one give us something on the other end of the spectrum. If you nerf our damage give us more CC and vice versa. I know what the main role of a CW is. Matter a fact I say when people are looking for a dps in PE, CC CW or dps CC CW cause I do control what little I can while mixing some secondary dps. I'm not screaming "xeque mate" as you so put it after a loss in a poker match. I'm screaming at the sudden change in rules right before I decide to either go all in or fold in the middle of the game for that matter.
Again it still seems like right now, which most people in MMO's have gotten past, you simply don't like a support class doing dps. And that's something you're going to have to live with. If it pisses you off like one person said on here, make your class better. We have to do it, why should you be the exception? It's almost like you're taking the current way things are fixed as an approach to "balancing" CW's: We will basically break everything about this one thing that is op instead of trying to fix it. Then do nothing about it.
why buff the secundary role until the class destroy the primary role of others 4 classes if you can FIRST TRY buff the primary role - control - being cw the SINGLE MAIN CONTROLLER OF THE GAME and NO ONE can complain about that? (next module, maybe he will have a new by the way)
if you like that type of argument that i used here, look for willian lane craig on youtube. just a hint and have fun. hahahah
Yeah I'm going to stop with him. He's not getting the point. Btw your siggy is awesome.
What bugs?
romotheone, will be really hard do a list after the dev tracker be excluded. during m2/m3 you have that problem:
some cws - like me - do 100/150k by shard in dungeons just explointing feats like ww,ms and AE. (in my defence, i dont know that are bugs in the past). and like you can see, my cw have a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gear.
i dont need know that to say: if a controller are doing more damage than a striker, need be fixed (if that is because of bugs) OR TONED DOWN.
my god, that is surreal! iam a "good writer" but dont know english, you guys know that language but can not fallow a minimally complex reasoning line, a figure of language. NOTHING. my... god... that is soooooooo frustrating.
chega de gringo burro, foda-se este thread. É coincidência que esse povo defenda o dano bizarro que esta classe teve durante toda a sua história baseado em interpretações textuais primárias e em confusões quanto ao significado de determinadas termos em diferentes jogos e fontes? não, não é. TUDO faz sentido agora.
Party - yes. Struggle... ...well, this first of all depends on your DM. Autowin DMs are just as boring as sadistic ones, and tend to play with very small groups. But basically, death is a way more expensive thing in P&P AD&D...
Also, typically the struggle is more on the riddle-solving and tactical side. Not on learning the fatest way from the campfire back to where the critter OSKed you by endless repetition...
nah... te espancar perdeu a graça. você não vale sequer o trabalho de traduzir.
respondo quando aparecer - SE APARECER - alguém capaz de formar uma linha de raciocínio válida sobre o assunto.
Probably this "secondary role striker" thingy is decorated all over your room walls, isnt it?
"mimimi" is your doing and some others whose highjacking every CW topic...
It wasn't bug it was obviously a nerf! And obviously from pvp balancing or something like that.
Lol.
And I am against this big difference between dps classes. Even if I admit that CWs should do less dmg (nope) than others I am against this big difference where some classes doubles others dmg.
I support a balanced maximum difference between dps classes. Lets say 10-20%.
Which can be different in dungeons where lots of aoe or single target but not double dmg...
lol
It was not a bug.
And again striker means only higher single target dmg not the dps masters of the Universe as it exists in someone's head.
CW dmg was nerfed because SWs had to be introduced as some dps arcane caster class.
Mod3 CW was pretty strong and few would chose Warlock over it as arcane caster type.
Storm spell was some compensation for shard, oppforce burst dmg.
Ah ok thanks for clearing that up. I'm pretty ignorant in the paper/pen D&D. So the knowledge drop was appreciated
Yeah as you can tell this is going to be one giant circle jerk. The guy just is narrow minded, and really starting to seem like a troll.
<Removed reply - please don't respond to forum violations. Thanks! ~Zeb>
1- One of the primary questions we received was Regarding the design goal of the Great Weapon Fighter. From a systems perspective design, the Great Weapon Fighter is designed to be the class that excels at AoE DPS and taking hits while providing a bit of control to the fight.
FORGET GWF; focus here: how a class can "excels in aoe dps" and just providing a bit control if aoe dps is control? how a striker can be designe to excels in aoe dps if be striker in this game is excels in single target?
2 -Control Wizards filled too many roles in groups and were more often than not the “right” choice for a group over other class, and this was very frustrating for people who played other classes.
Overall the changes will leave Control Wizards with more direct competition in group content and will let them more strongly fill the position of controlling all the foes on the battle field or doing heavy damage, but not both at once.
even if you say "Ok, aoe damage is a expectre of control" - consequence of the big cap, you have less monsters now - have aoe damage in this game is a expectre to a striker too, and, by every definition, striker is the guy that kill enemies fast. that means KILL MULTIPLES FAST IS THE PAPER OF A STRIKER, 1 or 10. and cws are secundary in that.
no one NEVER disagree about cw be a primary controller. just dont understand or accept the definition of controller, justifyng the inbalance of the secundary function - striker.
that is not a matter of opinion. is simple interpretation! and the nerf/fix is there! what is the projection?
This is primarily an AoE nerf in practice, but in some rare cases could affect single target rotations as well depending on your attack frequency.
if you DONT AGREE to the solution or dont see the problem, that is another discussion.
o lugar do cw é a consequência lógica do argumento. eu estou falando sobre SIGNIFICADO DOS CONCEITOS. como você pode discutir qualquer assunto se você não consegue sequer entender o significado dos conceitos ou ANTES, muito antes, a mera intenção de um texto? MEU DEUS; É A DEFINIÇÃO ENCARNADA DO QUE É SER UM ANALFABETO FUNCIONAL (ou o troll mais sem vergonha que eu já vi).
alfabetizados e honestos entenderam. cansei de surrar idiota, já disse.
How old is this guy... Or maybe its just past his naptime.
Well all of us (or at least most of us as CW's) understand this more than anything. Even more so the CW's the completely spec in CC.
The problem is though there is contradiction in what they said.
They state a GWF is suppose to excel at AoE dps. But they don't (correct me if I'm wrong gwf players) Like the most I've seen is them spin around in a circle and try to hit everything at once. So far the only reason why I see they do so much damage is due to the buffs they received in damage because of mod6 (the amount of crit strike is crazy).
With regards to CW's and there notes in general. All of what they said in theory does not reflect what they did in practice. If anything it's the opposite.
that " gwf is supposed to excel at aoe dps" etc is just to show the concept of striker, controller, etc. not to discuss gwfs or my opinion about how the class should work." is the dev designe, cleare? can work or not.
if you want know about gwfs today, every big damage of the class come to multiplicative boosts. if you hit one, will do great damage against one, if hit 5, the same big damage against 5. 90% of the powers have the possibility to hit between 3-5-x. ok?
now you have bad gwfs and bad controllers spreading the enemies. gwf - destroyer - have a great dps damage, but is not a controller to manipulate the board OR tank enough today to sustain the threat w/o suffer a big counter. now he need both, a defender and a controller working together.
The damage of those two was pathetic to begin with and their primary use was to proc SS.
And seeing as CoI cant even freeze anything i'm having hard time in justifying keeping it ( IT is mandatory for the freeze even as weak as it is ).