From the very beginning of Neverwinter, CW has been a DPS class while being Controllers. After 2 years with 6 major changes to the game, if the devs wanted to relegate CW to putting carrots on the noses of snowmen, it would have happened by now.
It's like you have no idea who designed this game. Yes, the very same devs you are so fond of misquoting. Dev is short for developer and they've never shared your opinion that AoE damage should be worth less than single target damage (i.e. Controller vs Striker).
As to the nerf, Cryptic can't even begin to adjust classes until the environment and gear we wear is balanced and everything works correctly. Until that happens, they're building houses on wet sand. They could have simply adjusted the Lostmauth set and CWs damage would have been about perfect compared to other classes, instead they treat the symptom and ignore the cause.
Ok lol how, pray tell, did my thread become a GWF b itching thread? And why does it suddenly require Google Translate? Seriously, grow up, people. My entire point was that CW's HAVE been nerfed before (and badly), and we more or less managed a workaround because there were other compensations to make up for it (damage got nerfed, Shard got nerfed, Sing got nerfed, but Chill was better, Steal Time was better, Storm Spell got a greater chance to proc...so we switch some powers around and voila, good as new).
BUT this time around with the Storm Spell crit nerf, there were no compensating factors, it was just a raw deal. There's no acceptable rewiring that can be done for a Spellstorm Mage to work around it. It was a petty, shortsighted slap in the face. I really don't want to have to respec to MoF, but I'm starting to feel railroaded into it. I will also never get back those 250k AD's I had spent on Augmentation Cubes to obtain the Artifact weapon power for extra SS strikes (before this patch), only to have them now make that virtually worthless.
I have 3266 IS, P. Vorp, base 43% crit, Power 18k with all the bells and whistles and boons to power up like a friggin nuclear reactor within seconds of combat starting, and now I can't keep up dps with a well-geared HR in a skirmish...AND the HR has better control!! Tell me how that's balanced?? Should that much damage have been wrapped up in a single CW class feature like Storm Spell in the first place? No, but it was, and we worked within the limitations and potential available! Who wouldn't?!
Now it doesn't seem to matter how skilled you are, how well geared or slotted in powers, Spellstorm Mage is s crewed. With no viable alternatives. Yeah, I'm QQing, and hard. If I had more trust in the devs and their decisions, I may feel better about it, but the painful truth is that trust has been utterly eroded over the past several months with a lot of bad changes, lackluster content and bugged items. I can no longer feel confident that everything will balance out in the end; I don't think it will. So I feel like my only recourse is to post a thread here on the forums and start a dialogue in the hopes they will see it and take it into consideration. The more people that pipe up, the more likely that is to occur. That's it. But please, can we try and stay on topic?
Thanks.
It didn't so much turn into a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> thread just one guy doing it more or less lol.
Before the update I was sitting around 3277 myself, roughly the same crit chance, power was around 15.9k. Only difference was I didn't use P.vorp. Actually I've been using Plague Fire. With me being Thaum/Opp it seems to work well for me. I like the numbers. Now yeah if someone has like the Lostmauth set with complet rank 10/11-12 enchants I'm going to get blown out the water (and >80 crit severity) But I make it work. And surprisingly well with only having Rank 8s and no Lostmauth set. It's actually fun.
But this does not excuse what has happened up to this point.
stop, zick. YOU asked about gwf after, again, confuse projection-execution and role-class. and will still dont understand like the guy above.
about the notes of your changes, of course that is a "excuse." that is the dev projection
As far as not critically striking, because of the way the power functions it was *always* critically striking and could never not crit, which meant that vorpal and other effects that boost critical severity were worth several times more value on this feature than intended when it originally got buffed. Since it cannot just natively crit (because it actually latches on to your powers so their targeting is inherited), I've opted to prevent it from critically striking instead of lowering the damage, which puts it more in line with where it should be. This is the bigger of the two nerfs. In cases where it was making up 30% of your damage, it will probably fall closer to 18%, which is much more in line with what we wanted from this feature in comparison with the options MoF brings to the table.
you guys need read more and think less (and no, i dont know if the idea is give real numbers or general expeculations... seens a general expeculation).
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prettycelt, sorry for that, that is my last post. i started in that discussion when that thread are created in "general discussion": and i can not imagine that will become so long because... god...
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just to answer some objections about "the past of cws" w/o create another post to response the same craps; m3 note:
To be perfectly frank, the CW is very much out of line right now. They provide too much damage and their AoEs don't really conform to the same damage rules as they ideally should. But we have looked at various reasons as to why they cause problems and some of that lies in their feats, some in their base ratios, some in target caps, and that is really quite a few dials to tune all at once. We are looking at where they belong and what role they need to fit into in combat, as well as ways to preserve some roles that players enjoy without making them the best option at all times.
some peoples need read more and think less (and that including know what is a contraction and a paradox; a simple figure of language).
This fellow likes to go on about the supposed role of CW and clearly forgets how CWs do their damage.
The damage of CWs accumulates from AOE spells. That's why it seems big in paingiver. THAT IS THEIR ROLE.
Against single targets CWs will lose to just about every other striker class there is.
I cant believe why its so hard to understand.
I honestly think that he's lost the ridiculous paingiver chart to some random CW and just gone mental for some reason.
stop, zick. YOU asked about gwf after, again, confuse projection-execution and role-class. and will still dont understand like the guy above.
about the notes of your changes, of course that is a "excuse." that is the dev projection
As far as not critically striking, because of the way the power functions it was *always* critically striking and could never not crit, which meant that vorpal and other effects that boost critical severity were worth several times more value on this feature than intended when it originally got buffed. Since it cannot just natively crit (because it actually latches on to your powers so their targeting is inherited), I've opted to prevent it from critically striking instead of lowering the damage, which puts it more in line with where it should be. This is the bigger of the two nerfs. In cases where it was making up 30% of your damage, it will probably fall closer to 18%, which is much more in line with what we wanted from this feature in comparison with the options MoF brings to the table.
you guys need read more and think less (and no, i dont know if the idea is give real numbers or general expeculations... seens a general expeculation).
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prettycelt, sorry for that, that is my last post. i started in that discussion when that thread are created in "general discussion": and i can not imagine that will become so long because... god...
*sigh* Again with this?
Ok. I'll clarify. I'm not complaining about GWFs. Yes I did ask as a point to be made in some cases and to prove. But not as a complaint to change subjects.
Read more and think less.......................................................................But reading to understand which you are implying requires us to think, thus understand. Lets not contradict yourself here. And no need to try to add insult. If you want to have a decent debate/conversation fine. But you're not (and you haven't yet) gotten your point across insulting and speaking in another language as if you're on some other higher plain of existence that no one else can understand.
Really all that any of us gathered from you is the fact that you don't want CW's to be top dps or dps in any fashion. But that's where I'll leave it.
stop, zick. YOU asked about gwf after, again, confuse projection-execution and role-class. and will still dont understand like the guy above.
about the notes of your changes, of course that is a "excuse." that is the dev projection
As far as not critically striking, because of the way the power functions it was *always* critically striking and could never not crit, which meant that vorpal and other effects that boost critical severity were worth several times more value on this feature than intended when it originally got buffed. Since it cannot just natively crit (because it actually latches on to your powers so their targeting is inherited), I've opted to prevent it from critically striking instead of lowering the damage, which puts it more in line with where it should be. This is the bigger of the two nerfs. In cases where it was making up 30% of your damage, it will probably fall closer to 18%, which is much more in line with what we wanted from this feature in comparison with the options MoF brings to the table.
you guys need read more and think less (and no, i dont know if the idea is give real numbers or general expeculations... seens a general expeculation).
****************************************
prettycelt, sorry for that, that is my last post. i started in that discussion when that thread are created in "general discussion": and i can not imagine that will become so long because... god...
***************************************
just to answer some objections about "the past of cws" w/o create another post to response the same craps; m3 note:
To be perfectly frank, the CW is very much out of line right now. They provide too much damage and their AoEs don't really conform to the same damage rules as they ideally should. But we have looked at various reasons as to why they cause problems and some of that lies in their feats, some in their base ratios, some in target caps, and that is really quite a few dials to tune all at once. We are looking at where they belong and what role they need to fit into in combat, as well as ways to preserve some roles that players enjoy without making them the best option at all times.
That quote is irrelevent and was in mod3 before the 2 pages of great mod4 CW nerf. I remember well since you guys put it on forums a hundred times.
And for the other one. It was just a technical explanation of the nerfs mechanism.
twoheadedpuig giveme a "historical" (and irrelevant) argument:
"zacazu, everything you say is wrong.
From the very beginning of Neverwinter, CW has been a DPS class while being Controllers. After 2 years with 6 major changes to the game, if the devs wanted to relegate CW to putting carrots on the noses of snowmen, it would have happened by now."
my response? dev quote
m3 (past)
"To be perfectly frank, the CW is very much out of line right now. They provide too much damage and their AoEs don't really conform to the same damage rules as they ideally should. But we have looked at various reasons as to why they cause problems and some of that lies in their feats, some in their base ratios, some in target caps, and that is really quite a few dials to tune all at once. We are looking at where they belong and what role they need to fit into in combat, as well as ways to preserve some roles that players enjoy without making them the best option at all times."
m6 (present)
"As far as not critically striking, because of the way the power functions it was *always* critically striking and could never not crit, which meant that vorpal and other effects that boost critical severity were worth several times more value on this feature than intended when it originally got buffed. Since it cannot just natively crit (because it actually latches on to your powers so their targeting is inherited), I've opted to prevent it from critically striking instead of lowering the damage, which puts it more in line with where it should be. This is the bigger of the two nerfs. In cases where it was making up 30% of your damage, it will probably fall closer to 18%, which is much more in line with what we wanted from this feature in comparison with the options MoF brings to the table."
past+"present"=history of the class
you need think less and read more. be sarcastic (or try) in your case is just bad irony of destiny.
Eu não quero voltar mais aqui, mas vocês pedem por uma surra.
ps: por isto eu falei em discutir em duas linhas. são incapazes de entender o que leem, e isto inclui o argumento de outros que TAMBÉM não entendem o que leem. trágico. (ou fingem; o que atribuo a algum tipo de fetiche)
Lets do this: make some mimimi below and I'll try ignore this time.
I wouldn't bother trying to argue with the player base. Most players can't understand that a CW should almost always top paingiver charts simply because of their intended role (which is, aoe damage dealer). Go read the 4th edition definition of a controller and MAYBE, MAYBE you'll finally understand. In term of single target damage, a CW is much lower dps than a GWF or TR.
Wrong. Striker classes should top damage charts. In other words, HR, SW, and TR. GWF should be next, because they are a hybrid striker/defender. Then CW, because they are supposed to do aoe damage to a large number of abilities, but their main purpose is to control. Also, the damage dealing wizards are known as war wizards. Control wizards are just control. GF should be next, because fighters are suppose to do good damage for a defender. Then OP, because defenders still.come above leaders. And finally DC, because the entire purpose of leaders is support, not damage. By the way, control is CC effects and rebuffs, making control wizards have a secondary role of leader, not striker. They should be able to up respectable damage, on par with say a control or support focused striker, but even a damage path should not beat a true striker trying to be a striker. This is the truth, and the fact CWs were the best damage dealers for 5 modules was a mistake that is finally being fixed. I for one am glad. I enjoy CW, but my favorite build is a MoF Oppressor with spell twisting. Watching my enemies be unable to do anything while my striker buddies beat them up is an amazing feeling. And I know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of having a good CW. I believe CW will remain the most wanted class for dungeons if we give up our dreams of being a striker and just try to help our party in the way we do best; by controlling the living sh*t out of them
I wouldn't bother trying to argue with the player base. Most players can't understand that a CW should almost always top paingiver charts simply because of their intended role (which is, aoe damage dealer). Go read the 4th edition definition of a controller and MAYBE, MAYBE you'll finally understand. In term of single target damage, a CW is much lower dps than a GWF or TR.
Wrong. Striker classes should top damage charts. In other words, HR, SW, and TR. GWF should be next, because they are a hybrid striker/defender. Then CW, because they are supposed to do aoe damage to a large number of abilities, but their main purpose is to control. Also, the damage dealing wizards are known as war wizards. Control wizards are just control. GF should be next, because fighters are suppose to do good damage for a defender. Then OP, because defenders still.come above leaders. And finally DC, because the entire purpose of leaders is support, not damage. By the way, control is CC effects and rebuffs, making control wizards have a secondary role of leader, not striker. They should be able to up respectable damage, on par with say a control or support focused striker, but even a damage path should not beat a true striker trying to be a striker. This is the truth, and the fact CWs were the best damage dealers for 5 modules was a mistake that is finally being fixed. I for one am glad. I enjoy CW, but my favorite build is a MoF Oppressor with spell twisting. Watching my enemies be unable to do anything while my striker buddies beat them up is an amazing feeling. And I know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of having a good CW. I believe CW will remain the most wanted class for dungeons if we give up our dreams of being a striker and just try to help our party in the way we do best; by controlling the living sh*t out of them
This I gotta disagree with. For all classes there should be some versatility. You should have the option to be either a controller or dps, Dps or tank, etc. Just saying keep support as support and dps as dps is crazy. And it destroys game play for people.
Like I said before and many others. If you limit our dps give us CC to fall back on. But don't leave us with nothing.
Me person I like my sudo hybrid build. It works. It CC's for a good amount of time and I do a bit of damage. I'm not totally concerned with paingiver but I'm normally number 2. And I'm just fine with that. I don't mind being a back up dps that's not too far off from the main dps in a group. I have that niche and it works. But to out right limit a class and saying they should only do that isn't right. Even more so when the game was not set up originally like that. If they where to nerf CW to the point where it did no damage, that is a lot of Radiant Enchantments that the devs would need to swap out for other enchantments.
Also, just because you feel as though (you in a general since not you in specific) that a class should be a curtain way that is your opinion. Not you speaking for every other person who plays a CW.
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
This legion guy is the new wave of troll, pretending to be one of the CWs who have been enlightened and trying to force his agenda onto naive players. Don't try to argue with him, he is not worth your time.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
This legion guy is the new wave of troll, pretending to be one of the CWs who have been enlightened and trying to force his agenda onto naive players. Don't try to argue with him, he is not worth your time.
I always check post history before I get too deep in the weeds with these guys. Looks like he's pretty much an HR who's mad that he gets beat by CW's in dungeons. Here's one of his posts from The Wilds forum.
Yeah, I guess. I might be biased, I'm almost BiS geared with a 4.2k IL, so I tend to go for max dps and let the natural hp and defense on the sets keep me alive. It works decently, but unfortunately it is required to do so if we want to compete for Paingiver in dungeons
I remember a time when I was a king...
So there you have it. He's arguing that CWs shouldn't being doing damage because they should be a control class, while posting in HIS class forum that he goes all out DPS so he can "compete" for the Paingiver title.
Seriously people, just play your class and play it well...I just don't get what the fascination is with "Paingiver". I've never gotten anything special for "winning" a dungeon like that.
This legion guy is the new wave of troll, pretending to be one of the CWs who have been enlightened and trying to force his agenda onto naive players. Don't try to argue with him, he is not worth your time.
I always check post history before I get too deep in the weeds with these guys. Looks like he's pretty much an HR who's mad that he gets beat by CW's in dungeons. Here's one of his posts from The Wilds forum.
Yeah, I guess. I might be biased, I'm almost BiS geared with a 4.2k IL, so I tend to go for max dps and let the natural hp and defense on the sets keep me alive. It works decently, but unfortunately it is required to do so if we want to compete for Paingiver in dungeons
I remember a time when I was a king...
So there you have it. He's arguing that CWs shouldn't being doing damage because they should be a control class, while posting in HIS class forum that he goes all out DPS so he can "compete" for the Paingiver title.
Seriously people, just play your class and play it well...I just don't get what the fascination is with "Paingiver". I've never gotten anything special for "winning" a dungeon like that.
Exactly my point. I swear paingiver, it's like a placebo effect. Makes people feel important.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
You know what makes me feel important? Dead bosses.
This legion guy is the new wave of troll, pretending to be one of the CWs who have been enlightened and trying to force his agenda onto naive players. Don't try to argue with him, he is not worth your time.
I always check post history before I get too deep in the weeds with these guys. Looks like he's pretty much an HR who's mad that he gets beat by CW's in dungeons. Here's one of his posts from The Wilds forum.
Yeah, I guess. I might be biased, I'm almost BiS geared with a 4.2k IL, so I tend to go for max dps and let the natural hp and defense on the sets keep me alive. It works decently, but unfortunately it is required to do so if we want to compete for Paingiver in dungeons
I remember a time when I was a king...
So there you have it. He's arguing that CWs shouldn't being doing damage because they should be a control class, while posting in HIS class forum that he goes all out DPS so he can "compete" for the Paingiver title.
Seriously people, just play your class and play it well...I just don't get what the fascination is with "Paingiver". I've never gotten anything special for "winning" a dungeon like that.
You misunderstand. I play HR yes. I also play GF. I also play CW. I also play GWF. I have played every class at endgame. HR is my favorite, but that doesn't mean I'm just "the new wave of troll". I'm also not mad I get beat by CWs in dungeons. I'm just a little perturbed when any average player can do it. That post is referring to the poor damage of HRs currently, especially my old favprite, combat. I also tend to care more about paingiver when I'm playing a striker class. Paingiver matters in that case, because I prefer to know how much damage I'm doing. If I'm rolling with BiS geared strikers, I don't care about place. But when I'm the main striker, I do. I also do compete for paingiver, I find it a fun way to ensure I am fulfilling my role and I like competition. It pushes me to do my best. That's why I want to win paingiver.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
If your favorite class isn't performing as you want it to, talk to the devs about it. You're not going to get much help with HR's here.
This legion guy is the new wave of troll, pretending to be one of the CWs who have been enlightened and trying to force his agenda onto naive players. Don't try to argue with him, he is not worth your time.
I always check post history before I get too deep in the weeds with these guys. Looks like he's pretty much an HR who's mad that he gets beat by CW's in dungeons. Here's one of his posts from The Wilds forum.
Yeah, I guess. I might be biased, I'm almost BiS geared with a 4.2k IL, so I tend to go for max dps and let the natural hp and defense on the sets keep me alive. It works decently, but unfortunately it is required to do so if we want to compete for Paingiver in dungeons
I remember a time when I was a king...
So there you have it. He's arguing that CWs shouldn't being doing damage because they should be a control class, while posting in HIS class forum that he goes all out DPS so he can "compete" for the Paingiver title.
Seriously people, just play your class and play it well...I just don't get what the fascination is with "Paingiver". I've never gotten anything special for "winning" a dungeon like that.
You misunderstand. I play HR yes. I also play GF. I also play CW. I also play GWF. I have played every class at endgame. HR is my favorite, but that doesn't mean I'm just "the new wave of troll". I'm also not mad I get beat by CWs in dungeons. I'm just a little perturbed when any average player can do it. That post is referring to the poor damage of HRs currently, especially my old favprite, combat. I also tend to care more about paingiver when I'm playing a striker class. Paingiver matters in that case, because I prefer to know how much damage I'm doing. If I'm rolling with BiS geared strikers, I don't care about place. But when I'm the main striker, I do. I also do compete for paingiver, I find it a fun way to ensure I am fulfilling my role and I like competition. It pushes me to do my best. That's why I want to win paingiver.
This legion guy is the new wave of troll, pretending to be one of the CWs who have been enlightened and trying to force his agenda onto naive players. Don't try to argue with him, he is not worth your time.
I always check post history before I get too deep in the weeds with these guys. Looks like he's pretty much an HR who's mad that he gets beat by CW's in dungeons. Here's one of his posts from The Wilds forum.
Yeah, I guess. I might be biased, I'm almost BiS geared with a 4.2k IL, so I tend to go for max dps and let the natural hp and defense on the sets keep me alive. It works decently, but unfortunately it is required to do so if we want to compete for Paingiver in dungeons
I remember a time when I was a king...
So there you have it. He's arguing that CWs shouldn't being doing damage because they should be a control class, while posting in HIS class forum that he goes all out DPS so he can "compete" for the Paingiver title.
Seriously people, just play your class and play it well...I just don't get what the fascination is with "Paingiver". I've never gotten anything special for "winning" a dungeon like that.
You misunderstand. I play HR yes. I also play GF. I also play CW. I also play GWF. I have played every class at endgame. HR is my favorite, but that doesn't mean I'm just "the new wave of troll". I'm also not mad I get beat by CWs in dungeons. I'm just a little perturbed when any average player can do it. That post is referring to the poor damage of HRs currently, especially my old favprite, combat. I also tend to care more about paingiver when I'm playing a striker class. Paingiver matters in that case, because I prefer to know how much damage I'm doing. If I'm rolling with BiS geared strikers, I don't care about place. But when I'm the main striker, I do. I also do compete for paingiver, I find it a fun way to ensure I am fulfilling my role and I like competition. It pushes me to do my best. That's why I want to win paingiver.
But.........it's pointless........
Simply, I play this game to have fun, and while completing a dungeon is fun, having a little competition is fun too. It also makes me feel good about myself, which is a draw. It's simply a fun thing to "win". Its not a priority, just a small measure of success.
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
Following that logic, you shouldn't have come here complaining about CWs damage either. Or are you trying to win the competition by dragging everyone down through nerf/boost posts and misleading topics?
This legion guy is the new wave of troll, pretending to be one of the CWs who have been enlightened and trying to force his agenda onto naive players. Don't try to argue with him, he is not worth your time.
I always check post history before I get too deep in the weeds with these guys. Looks like he's pretty much an HR who's mad that he gets beat by CW's in dungeons. Here's one of his posts from The Wilds forum.
Yeah, I guess. I might be biased, I'm almost BiS geared with a 4.2k IL, so I tend to go for max dps and let the natural hp and defense on the sets keep me alive. It works decently, but unfortunately it is required to do so if we want to compete for Paingiver in dungeons
I remember a time when I was a king...
So there you have it. He's arguing that CWs shouldn't being doing damage because they should be a control class, while posting in HIS class forum that he goes all out DPS so he can "compete" for the Paingiver title.
Seriously people, just play your class and play it well...I just don't get what the fascination is with "Paingiver". I've never gotten anything special for "winning" a dungeon like that.
You misunderstand. I play HR yes. I also play GF. I also play CW. I also play GWF. I have played every class at endgame. HR is my favorite, but that doesn't mean I'm just "the new wave of troll". I'm also not mad I get beat by CWs in dungeons. I'm just a little perturbed when any average player can do it. That post is referring to the poor damage of HRs currently, especially my old favprite, combat. I also tend to care more about paingiver when I'm playing a striker class. Paingiver matters in that case, because I prefer to know how much damage I'm doing. If I'm rolling with BiS geared strikers, I don't care about place. But when I'm the main striker, I do. I also do compete for paingiver, I find it a fun way to ensure I am fulfilling my role and I like competition. It pushes me to do my best. That's why I want to win paingiver.
But.........it's pointless........
Simply, I play this game to have fun, and while completing a dungeon is fun, having a little competition is fun too. It also makes me feel good about myself, which is a draw. It's simply a fun thing to "win". Its not a priority, just a small measure of success.
Competition is fun, then again that's what PVP is for lol.
But on a serious note. If there are two tanks in a party, would the competition for most damage taken be a measure of success since they are both keeping mobs off the party? Same with two healers and healing out even though they a both keeping the party alive and topped off?
See where I'm getting at?
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited July 2015
The reality is the best players of their respective classes bring all their milkshakes to the yard.
Good tanks hold agro and are tough to kill. Great tanks hold agro, are tough to kill and bring the buffs. Amazing tanks hold agro, are tough to kill, bring buffs AND do great damage.
Good healers keep people alive. Great healers keep people alive while buffing and debuffing. Amazing healers keep people alive, buff/debuff AND do great damage.
Good CWs do amazing damage. Great CWs do amazing damage and CC. Amazing CWs do amazing damage, CC and Buff/Debuff.
See where I'm getting at? The best at their class bring the best of all the tools the class has, not just one.
If you're only doing damage, you're a bad CW.
If you're only doing crowd control, you're a bad CW.
If you're only trying to buff/debuff, you're a bad CW.
The reality is the best players of their respective classes bring all their milkshakes to the yard.
Good tanks hold agro and are tough to kill. Great tanks hold agro, are tough to kill and bring the buffs. Amazing tanks hold agro, are tough to kill, bring buffs AND do great damage.
Good healers keep people alive. Great healers keep people alive while buffing and debuffing. Amazing healers keep people alive, buff/debuff AND do great damage.
Good CWs do amazing damage. Great CWs do amazing damage and CC. Amazing CWs do amazing damage, CC and Buff/Debuff.
See where I'm getting at? The best at their class bring the best of all the tools the class has, not just one.
If you're only doing damage, you're a bad CW.
If you're only doing crowd control, you're a bad CW.
If you're only trying to buff/debuff, you're a bad CW.
pve and pvp in the game need to be completely split apart and powers need to be balanced separately depending on whether you are in pve or pvp..
Maybe the best thing I've ever read on this board.
The constant "balancing" nerf/buff/nerf ebb & flow is getting old.
I really think that the class juggling is often related to the very vocal PvP population complaining about nerfing one thing and buff the other. All the while some pve content has become almost unplayable.
Sure PvP should have their say, but I don't think their is enough of them to pay the bills. And contrary to their vocal presence, are not the majority.
I think PvP/PvE should have different rules and it could let the people that want to play without worrying about leader boards, play content where you won't die in 1 hit and classes are strong in what D&D designed them to be strong in for over 30 years now. D&D 1-3, Wizards post-lv 30 were gods, but in Neverwinter, you can be out DPSed by a OP wacking with a dog-bone; even with a major gear-difference, this should not be possible...
It'll never happen, but it's nice to think it might, because the current solution is, IMO, a total failure and all the numbers shine light on it.
True! In D&D 2.5-3 (like in Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale and the old Neverwinter series) Wizards were amazing they pwnd whole armies with aoe spells like fireballs, meteor swarms. Spells like command spells, triggered-sequencer spells and (real!) Time stop were amazing. They were more like nuke aoe Wizards in WoW which this game starting to lack after mod3.
This D&D4 and this whole strike-controller thing is misleading and a nonsense.
This strike-controller concept was wiped out in D&D5 btw.
DPS matters even if you look down on paingiver as a measurement of who runs to the next room fastest. Ours isn't up to much right now. This is immediatly obvious in a group with built gwfs and sws. We are a dps class and we aren't up to much even before the nerf. I'm sorry but the holy trinity is relevant in mod 6. The control aspect, lol :phantomjerk:
Comments
From the very beginning of Neverwinter, CW has been a DPS class while being Controllers. After 2 years with 6 major changes to the game, if the devs wanted to relegate CW to putting carrots on the noses of snowmen, it would have happened by now.
It's like you have no idea who designed this game. Yes, the very same devs you are so fond of misquoting. Dev is short for developer and they've never shared your opinion that AoE damage should be worth less than single target damage (i.e. Controller vs Striker).
As to the nerf, Cryptic can't even begin to adjust classes until the environment and gear we wear is balanced and everything works correctly. Until that happens, they're building houses on wet sand. They could have simply adjusted the Lostmauth set and CWs damage would have been about perfect compared to other classes, instead they treat the symptom and ignore the cause.
It didn't so much turn into a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> thread just one guy doing it more or less lol.
Before the update I was sitting around 3277 myself, roughly the same crit chance, power was around 15.9k. Only difference was I didn't use P.vorp. Actually I've been using Plague Fire. With me being Thaum/Opp it seems to work well for me. I like the numbers. Now yeah if someone has like the Lostmauth set with complet rank 10/11-12 enchants I'm going to get blown out the water (and >80 crit severity) But I make it work. And surprisingly well with only having Rank 8s and no Lostmauth set. It's actually fun.
But this does not excuse what has happened up to this point.
about the notes of your changes, of course that is a "excuse." that is the dev projection
As far as not critically striking, because of the way the power functions it was *always* critically striking and could never not crit, which meant that vorpal and other effects that boost critical severity were worth several times more value on this feature than intended when it originally got buffed. Since it cannot just natively crit (because it actually latches on to your powers so their targeting is inherited), I've opted to prevent it from critically striking instead of lowering the damage, which puts it more in line with where it should be. This is the bigger of the two nerfs. In cases where it was making up 30% of your damage, it will probably fall closer to 18%, which is much more in line with what we wanted from this feature in comparison with the options MoF brings to the table.
you guys need read more and think less (and no, i dont know if the idea is give real numbers or general expeculations... seens a general expeculation).
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prettycelt, sorry for that, that is my last post. i started in that discussion when that thread are created in "general discussion": and i can not imagine that will become so long because... god...
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just to answer some objections about "the past of cws" w/o create another post to response the same craps; m3 note:
To be perfectly frank, the CW is very much out of line right now. They provide too much damage and their AoEs don't really conform to the same damage rules as they ideally should. But we have looked at various reasons as to why they cause problems and some of that lies in their feats, some in their base ratios, some in target caps, and that is really quite a few dials to tune all at once. We are looking at where they belong and what role they need to fit into in combat, as well as ways to preserve some roles that players enjoy without making them the best option at all times.
some peoples need read more and think less (and that including know what is a contraction and a paradox; a simple figure of language).
The damage of CWs accumulates from AOE spells. That's why it seems big in paingiver. THAT IS THEIR ROLE.
Against single targets CWs will lose to just about every other striker class there is.
I cant believe why its so hard to understand.
I honestly think that he's lost the ridiculous paingiver chart to some random CW and just gone mental for some reason.
*sigh* Again with this?
Ok. I'll clarify. I'm not complaining about GWFs. Yes I did ask as a point to be made in some cases and to prove. But not as a complaint to change subjects.
Read more and think less.......................................................................But reading to understand which you are implying requires us to think, thus understand. Lets not contradict yourself here. And no need to try to add insult. If you want to have a decent debate/conversation fine. But you're not (and you haven't yet) gotten your point across insulting and speaking in another language as if you're on some other higher plain of existence that no one else can understand.
Really all that any of us gathered from you is the fact that you don't want CW's to be top dps or dps in any fashion. But that's where I'll leave it.
That quote is irrelevent and was in mod3 before the 2 pages of great mod4 CW nerf. I remember well since you guys put it on forums a hundred times.
And for the other one. It was just a technical explanation of the nerfs mechanism.
Some ppl mastered this requirement already...
"zacazu, everything you say is wrong.
From the very beginning of Neverwinter, CW has been a DPS class while being Controllers. After 2 years with 6 major changes to the game, if the devs wanted to relegate CW to putting carrots on the noses of snowmen, it would have happened by now."
my response? dev quote
m3 (past)
"To be perfectly frank, the CW is very much out of line right now. They provide too much damage and their AoEs don't really conform to the same damage rules as they ideally should. But we have looked at various reasons as to why they cause problems and some of that lies in their feats, some in their base ratios, some in target caps, and that is really quite a few dials to tune all at once. We are looking at where they belong and what role they need to fit into in combat, as well as ways to preserve some roles that players enjoy without making them the best option at all times."
m6 (present)
"As far as not critically striking, because of the way the power functions it was *always* critically striking and could never not crit, which meant that vorpal and other effects that boost critical severity were worth several times more value on this feature than intended when it originally got buffed. Since it cannot just natively crit (because it actually latches on to your powers so their targeting is inherited), I've opted to prevent it from critically striking instead of lowering the damage, which puts it more in line with where it should be. This is the bigger of the two nerfs. In cases where it was making up 30% of your damage, it will probably fall closer to 18%, which is much more in line with what we wanted from this feature in comparison with the options MoF brings to the table."
past+"present"=history of the class
you need think less and read more. be sarcastic (or try) in your case is just bad irony of destiny.
Eu não quero voltar mais aqui, mas vocês pedem por uma surra.
ps: por isto eu falei em discutir em duas linhas. são incapazes de entender o que leem, e isto inclui o argumento de outros que TAMBÉM não entendem o que leem. trágico. (ou fingem; o que atribuo a algum tipo de fetiche)
Lets do this: make some mimimi below and I'll try ignore this time.
The second quote was something he knew when he made the power proc on crit
Wrong. Striker classes should top damage charts. In other words, HR, SW, and TR. GWF should be next, because they are a hybrid striker/defender. Then CW, because they are supposed to do aoe damage to a large number of abilities, but their main purpose is to control. Also, the damage dealing wizards are known as war wizards. Control wizards are just control. GF should be next, because fighters are suppose to do good damage for a defender. Then OP, because defenders still.come above leaders. And finally DC, because the entire purpose of leaders is support, not damage. By the way, control is CC effects and rebuffs, making control wizards have a secondary role of leader, not striker. They should be able to up respectable damage, on par with say a control or support focused striker, but even a damage path should not beat a true striker trying to be a striker. This is the truth, and the fact CWs were the best damage dealers for 5 modules was a mistake that is finally being fixed. I for one am glad. I enjoy CW, but my favorite build is a MoF Oppressor with spell twisting. Watching my enemies be unable to do anything while my striker buddies beat them up is an amazing feeling. And I know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of having a good CW. I believe CW will remain the most wanted class for dungeons if we give up our dreams of being a striker and just try to help our party in the way we do best; by controlling the living sh*t out of them
This I gotta disagree with. For all classes there should be some versatility. You should have the option to be either a controller or dps, Dps or tank, etc. Just saying keep support as support and dps as dps is crazy. And it destroys game play for people.
Like I said before and many others. If you limit our dps give us CC to fall back on. But don't leave us with nothing.
Me person I like my sudo hybrid build. It works. It CC's for a good amount of time and I do a bit of damage. I'm not totally concerned with paingiver but I'm normally number 2. And I'm just fine with that. I don't mind being a back up dps that's not too far off from the main dps in a group. I have that niche and it works. But to out right limit a class and saying they should only do that isn't right. Even more so when the game was not set up originally like that. If they where to nerf CW to the point where it did no damage, that is a lot of Radiant Enchantments that the devs would need to swap out for other enchantments.
Also, just because you feel as though (you in a general since not you in specific) that a class should be a curtain way that is your opinion. Not you speaking for every other person who plays a CW.
I always check post history before I get too deep in the weeds with these guys. Looks like he's pretty much an HR who's mad that he gets beat by CW's in dungeons. Here's one of his posts from The Wilds forum.
So there you have it. He's arguing that CWs shouldn't being doing damage because they should be a control class, while posting in HIS class forum that he goes all out DPS so he can "compete" for the Paingiver title.
Seriously people, just play your class and play it well...I just don't get what the fascination is with "Paingiver". I've never gotten anything special for "winning" a dungeon like that.
Exactly my point. I swear paingiver, it's like a placebo effect. Makes people feel important.
Cheers to that lol.
You misunderstand. I play HR yes. I also play GF. I also play CW. I also play GWF. I have played every class at endgame. HR is my favorite, but that doesn't mean I'm just "the new wave of troll". I'm also not mad I get beat by CWs in dungeons. I'm just a little perturbed when any average player can do it. That post is referring to the poor damage of HRs currently, especially my old favprite, combat. I also tend to care more about paingiver when I'm playing a striker class. Paingiver matters in that case, because I prefer to know how much damage I'm doing. If I'm rolling with BiS geared strikers, I don't care about place. But when I'm the main striker, I do. I also do compete for paingiver, I find it a fun way to ensure I am fulfilling my role and I like competition. It pushes me to do my best. That's why I want to win paingiver.
I didn't come here to talk about HRs. You brought that up, and I was simply clarifying.
But.........it's pointless........
Simply, I play this game to have fun, and while completing a dungeon is fun, having a little competition is fun too. It also makes me feel good about myself, which is a draw. It's simply a fun thing to "win". Its not a priority, just a small measure of success.
Competition is fun, then again that's what PVP is for lol.
But on a serious note. If there are two tanks in a party, would the competition for most damage taken be a measure of success since they are both keeping mobs off the party? Same with two healers and healing out even though they a both keeping the party alive and topped off?
See where I'm getting at?
Good tanks hold agro and are tough to kill. Great tanks hold agro, are tough to kill and bring the buffs. Amazing tanks hold agro, are tough to kill, bring buffs AND do great damage.
Good healers keep people alive. Great healers keep people alive while buffing and debuffing. Amazing healers keep people alive, buff/debuff AND do great damage.
Good CWs do amazing damage. Great CWs do amazing damage and CC. Amazing CWs do amazing damage, CC and Buff/Debuff.
See where I'm getting at? The best at their class bring the best of all the tools the class has, not just one.
If you're only doing damage, you're a bad CW.
If you're only doing crowd control, you're a bad CW.
If you're only trying to buff/debuff, you're a bad CW.
Makes sense to me lol
The constant "balancing" nerf/buff/nerf ebb & flow is getting old.
I really think that the class juggling is often related to the very vocal PvP population complaining about nerfing one thing and buff the other. All the while some pve content has become almost unplayable.
Sure PvP should have their say, but I don't think their is enough of them to pay the bills. And contrary to their vocal presence, are not the majority.
I think PvP/PvE should have different rules and it could let the people that want to play without worrying about leader boards, play content where you won't die in 1 hit and classes are strong in what D&D designed them to be strong in for over 30 years now. D&D 1-3, Wizards post-lv 30 were gods, but in Neverwinter, you can be out DPSed by a OP wacking with a dog-bone; even with a major gear-difference, this should not be possible...
It'll never happen, but it's nice to think it might, because the current solution is, IMO, a total failure and all the numbers shine light on it.
This D&D4 and this whole strike-controller thing is misleading and a nonsense.
This strike-controller concept was wiped out in D&D5 btw.