ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited June 2015
Makes sense. When I was testing stuff this weekend, the DPS from Smolder was 1/2 to 1/4 of Storm Spell.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
edited June 2015
My Smolder/Rimefire procs went up to 10k+ against frozen targets, along with 14-15k procs from the lostmauth set.
provp
Swath
chilling
ray of enfeeblement
... and the usual companions.
I think you are very much talking down onto MoF. In my opinion, they are only slightly weaker than SS, but the damage increase coming from Swath and the constant freezes from Icy Veins are huge for a group and for yourself. Rene + Icy Veins is the way to go. While SS relies on actively casting to proc storm spell and therefore relies heavily on Spell Twisting, MoF is able to run Icy Veins, since Smolder/Rimefire only has to be applied once and after that it's all about amplifying the damage. MoF has more time to kite, contributes a ton more to the party through freezes and damage amplification and is the better addition to a competitive group. Stop testing stuff on paper (aka dummies), get a sense for what and where the paragon path does best/better and compare it that way.
MoF capitalizes on the lostmauth set way more and Vorpal is still a thing because stuff actually crits.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Stop testing stuff on paper (aka dummies), get a sense for what and where the paragon path does best/better and compare it that way.
I posted parses of a run through ToS a couple pages ago. All I use dummies for is to determine magnitude or delve into triggers. They're useless these days for actual real world testing.
So since you called me out, post some screenshots of your MoF runs in eToS. Here's one of my parses from last week versus Syndryth. It showed my SS procs were averaging 30k, with a max of 118k. So saying that you lay down a ton of debuffs and that you get 10k crits on smolder doesn't impress me.
But we'll wait to see what your numbers actually look like, then we can talk more.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
Why should those numbers impress you? That part was directed towards the gentlement posting right before me.
Also you are bragging about big numbers with god knows how much gear and with a party behind you with various effects coming into play? How is that even remotely relevant, unless you're here to show off your e-peen? Why would you try to race me in terms of big hits? You are obviously better geared than me. Sorry but I expected more from someone who pretends to know a lot and tries to guide a whole community than just to talk down on people. But again... you are showing us numbers, have you tried analysing the environment, party composition and other factors? A lot remains hidden, even with that screenshot of yours.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited June 2015
No need to resort to ad hominems here. If you all you have to add is personal attacks directed to me, please use the PM system.
But numbers are numbers. They give us a place to start a discussion. Sure, gear matters and group composition matters. But we can look at the magnitude of the numbers, percentages, etc. Saying you need to do X DPS isn't super helpful, because as you pointed out, DPS isn't consistent.
However, I HAVE tested MoF vs Stormspell pretty extensively over the last 4 mods. If you remember (if you're been around long enough, but probably not likely), I was one of the early advocates alongside Chemboy for the Master of Flame. If you find his MoF Dracoslaying guide from a few mods ago, you'll see I argue passionately for the viability of the MoF build as superior to the SS for boss killing, including numbers and parses to back that up. And it was proven that while a SS (at the time) would win the Paingiver, MoF would be SUBSTANTIALLY more damage in boss fights, particularly in the toughest fight in the game at the time, the Dracolich in CN.
But that was then, this is now. And unfortunately, the changes to the CW class over the last 3 modules have put the SS way ahead of the MoF in terms of damage. It's a fact.
So if you want to have this debate, you need to provide some actual data, and not just insult me.
If you can't do that, this conversation is over.
EDIT: And to you last point, if you're hitting 10K-ish with Smolder, then my earlier statement is accurate. That's about 1/4 to 1/2 the damage most people should see with Storm Spell.
EDIT: And to you last point, if you're hitting 10K-ish with Smolder, then my earlier statement is accurate. That's about 1/4 to 1/2 the damage most people should see with Storm Spell.
Smolder AND Rimefire. So it's 10k twice, ticking away while the SS CW is waiting for it's cooldowns.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
EDIT: And to you last point, if you're hitting 10K-ish with Smolder, then my earlier statement is accurate. That's about 1/4 to 1/2 the damage most people should see with Storm Spell.
Smolder AND Rimefire. So it's 10k twice, ticking away while the SS CW is waiting for it's cooldowns.
You can't have smolder AND rimfire going at the same time. When a target afflicted with smolder gets hit with a chill it turns to rimfire.
It is NOT in fact, ticking twice.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
You can't have smolder AND rimfire going at the same time. When a target afflicted with smolder gets hit with a chill it turns to rimfire.
It is NOT in fact, ticking twice.
Yea, it doesn't. I appearently played through mod 5 and mod 6 with a bug exclusive to me then.
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
edited June 2015
I assume then that you didn't know about the "Fanning the Flame" being able to burst either?
Normal Fanning:
Fanning Burst:
The numbers on screen are hard to catch, but here is a shot of the log:
Fanning Burst:
Normal Fanning:
This can be achieved with most DoT companions as well.
I also know why and when the double smolder+rimefire and fanning burst happen, because I test and not just look at numbers in a 3rd party software. That way you just overlook things that numbers don't tell you.
also I forgot to thank you for the guide, great job it gave me a place to start and is working out nicely.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
@romotheone Great. We should run together sometime then so I can parse out exactly what you're doing. Look me up in game (@ironzerg) and we'll do something easy like eToS.
Thanks for the guide Zerg. I was lost after Mod 6 killed off LS. I was built as a heavy MoF with lots of control and over 8k LS. It took a while for me to get the job done, but I was nigh unkillable. Now I am a squishy little thing.
But with your guide, I have respec'd and it is working well. I die easier all alone, but I do benefit the team more. It will matter more when I hit 70 and start grinding away.
But I did notice that Arcane Sing seems to grab more than 8. I manage to grab about 12 on one blast. Weird.
This guide is great, I'm using it right now. I'm currently level 57 and the crowd control is real folks! Instead of Sudden Storm I've been using Avalanche though.
Hi, i just used retraining token, you dont explain much of arcane powerfield and frostwave, i have 5 points left and want to put it on something nice, + 2 extra points for lvl (IV)
Are they worth it?
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Critical Strike: More is better. Critical Strike use to severely diminish after about 2500. With the new stat curves, my first instinct is to see how high I can stack critical strike, since it's so important for this build. Ultimately this change should make us even stronger. I'll be waiting for the next double RP weekend to start building more Azures instead of Radiant enchantments for my offensive slots, and report the results.
I'm curious how the Weapon Enchant testing is going. Im running PF atm, any word on how Feytouched or Terror compare? I was considering switching to one of them.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited June 2015
Terror is currently broken, so it buffs mobs instead of debuffing them.
Feytouched is likely the "go to" for personal DPS (as long as no one else is using it, they don't stack...whoever debuffs the mob first gets the buff). But it's only slightly better than Vorpal, and you don't run into the stacking issue, so if you already have a Vorpal, I wouldn't switch.
I'm using PF at the moment. The overall debuff is stronger, and it's really cheap...so who can argue with that?
Terror is currently broken, so it buffs mobs instead of debuffing them.
Feytouched is likely the "go to" for personal DPS (as long as no one else is using it, they don't stack...whoever debuffs the mob first gets the buff). But it's only slightly better than Vorpal, and you don't run into the stacking issue, so if you already have a Vorpal, I wouldn't switch.
I'm using PF at the moment. The overall debuff is stronger, and it's really cheap...so who can argue with that?
I can't.
I know it's not Feytouch/Vorpal but how do you like it damage wise?
Terror is currently broken, so it buffs mobs instead of debuffing them.
Feytouched is likely the "go to" for personal DPS (as long as no one else is using it, they don't stack...whoever debuffs the mob first gets the buff). But it's only slightly better than Vorpal, and you don't run into the stacking issue, so if you already have a Vorpal, I wouldn't switch.
I'm using PF at the moment. The overall debuff is stronger, and it's really cheap...so who can argue with that?
So for flat personal DPS atm assuming Transcendant Feytouched > Transcendant Vorpal > Transcendant PF?
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Right, with the caveat on the TFT. I can't whole-heartedly recommend it, because if all the CW's start running with TFT, it won't work. That's why I think sticking to Vorpal is the smarter choice. The difference between the two is pretty small.
TFT is going to be 18% plus the extra damage.
TV is going to be harder to calculate exactly, but I think if you subtract your average % Storm Spell damage, then multiple that by your average critical rate times 28%, then that should do it.
So for me, Storm Spell is still about 25% of my damage. And my average crit rate is about 80%. So 75% x 80% x 28% is about 17% damage increase. I guess you can then count the extra 2% resistance reduction from Vorpal and compare that to the value of reducing the damage of an enemy by 18% and it's probably a wash.
As far as PF, I would stop at Pure. The AOE from the T version is pretty weak, and not really worth the cost. Once they fix Terror, it'll be really, really nice at T level, but very expensive.
But for the CW on a budget, in terms of AD:Effectiveness, PF is the clear winner.
Hi. I'm lvl50 atm. and my build looks like this: (sorry, can't put link, I can send it on PM) Am I giving points in skills the right way (I try to follow this guide). Howewer I don't know how to stack Magic Mastery, or whatever is it called in english (Polish version here), because I need to use Magic Missile to stack it, while the guide says to use Chilling Cloud and RoF.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Don't worry too much about Arcane Stacks. You'll get some from Steal Time and Oppressive Force, but you're not doing a lot Arcane damage, so they aren't critical.
Third, I noticed that on your post, you listed single target, but then for your scenario, it was slightly different. I believe it was specifically:
Icy Rays (on tab)
chill strike
Disintegrate
Ray of Enfeeblement
But then you mentioned you do:
CoI on Tab
Chill Strike
Disintegrate
Ray of Enfeeblement
May I inquire why? Just personal preference?
Thank you again, I found your posting very helpful and informative.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Yeah, I got distracted midway through the powers update, and didn't really finish the single target section out very well.
For me, it's still CoI on tab, Disintegrate, and Ray of Enfeeblement. If I feel good about getting close to the target, I'll keep Icy Terrain slotted.
As for Disintegrate, I'm not worried about the tooltips, or DPS testing on dummies. Tooltips are fairly unreliable in this game. Typically in any given dungeon run, Disintegrate will be 15% +/- of my total damage, usually the highest out of any encounter spell. Plus, the very short cooldown helps with Spell Twisting procs, so for me it's never leaving my bar.
Comments
provp
Swath
chilling
ray of enfeeblement
... and the usual companions.
I think you are very much talking down onto MoF. In my opinion, they are only slightly weaker than SS, but the damage increase coming from Swath and the constant freezes from Icy Veins are huge for a group and for yourself. Rene + Icy Veins is the way to go. While SS relies on actively casting to proc storm spell and therefore relies heavily on Spell Twisting, MoF is able to run Icy Veins, since Smolder/Rimefire only has to be applied once and after that it's all about amplifying the damage. MoF has more time to kite, contributes a ton more to the party through freezes and damage amplification and is the better addition to a competitive group. Stop testing stuff on paper (aka dummies), get a sense for what and where the paragon path does best/better and compare it that way.
MoF capitalizes on the lostmauth set way more and Vorpal is still a thing because stuff actually crits.
I posted parses of a run through ToS a couple pages ago. All I use dummies for is to determine magnitude or delve into triggers. They're useless these days for actual real world testing.
So since you called me out, post some screenshots of your MoF runs in eToS. Here's one of my parses from last week versus Syndryth. It showed my SS procs were averaging 30k, with a max of 118k. So saying that you lay down a ton of debuffs and that you get 10k crits on smolder doesn't impress me.
But we'll wait to see what your numbers actually look like, then we can talk more.
Also you are bragging about big numbers with god knows how much gear and with a party behind you with various effects coming into play? How is that even remotely relevant, unless you're here to show off your e-peen? Why would you try to race me in terms of big hits? You are obviously better geared than me. Sorry but I expected more from someone who pretends to know a lot and tries to guide a whole community than just to talk down on people. But again... you are showing us numbers, have you tried analysing the environment, party composition and other factors? A lot remains hidden, even with that screenshot of yours.
But numbers are numbers. They give us a place to start a discussion. Sure, gear matters and group composition matters. But we can look at the magnitude of the numbers, percentages, etc. Saying you need to do X DPS isn't super helpful, because as you pointed out, DPS isn't consistent.
However, I HAVE tested MoF vs Stormspell pretty extensively over the last 4 mods. If you remember (if you're been around long enough, but probably not likely), I was one of the early advocates alongside Chemboy for the Master of Flame. If you find his MoF Dracoslaying guide from a few mods ago, you'll see I argue passionately for the viability of the MoF build as superior to the SS for boss killing, including numbers and parses to back that up. And it was proven that while a SS (at the time) would win the Paingiver, MoF would be SUBSTANTIALLY more damage in boss fights, particularly in the toughest fight in the game at the time, the Dracolich in CN.
But that was then, this is now. And unfortunately, the changes to the CW class over the last 3 modules have put the SS way ahead of the MoF in terms of damage. It's a fact.
So if you want to have this debate, you need to provide some actual data, and not just insult me.
If you can't do that, this conversation is over.
EDIT: And to you last point, if you're hitting 10K-ish with Smolder, then my earlier statement is accurate. That's about 1/4 to 1/2 the damage most people should see with Storm Spell.
Smolder AND Rimefire. So it's 10k twice, ticking away while the SS CW is waiting for it's cooldowns.
You can't have smolder AND rimfire going at the same time. When a target afflicted with smolder gets hit with a chill it turns to rimfire.
It is NOT in fact, ticking twice.
Whatever you feel the need to add after that. I don't use anything else past 60 except for Disintegrate.
Yea, it doesn't. I appearently played through mod 5 and mod 6 with a bug exclusive to me then.
Normal Fanning:
Fanning Burst:
The numbers on screen are hard to catch, but here is a shot of the log:
Fanning Burst:
Normal Fanning:
This can be achieved with most DoT companions as well.
I also know why and when the double smolder+rimefire and fanning burst happen, because I test and not just look at numbers in a 3rd party software. That way you just overlook things that numbers don't tell you.
But with your guide, I have respec'd and it is working well. I die easier all alone, but I do benefit the team more. It will matter more when I hit 70 and start grinding away.
But I did notice that Arcane Sing seems to grab more than 8. I manage to grab about 12 on one blast. Weird.
Are they worth it?
So then i should get imprisoment?
I might put one point into it just in case, but that's it.
How high have you got so far?
Feytouched is likely the "go to" for personal DPS (as long as no one else is using it, they don't stack...whoever debuffs the mob first gets the buff). But it's only slightly better than Vorpal, and you don't run into the stacking issue, so if you already have a Vorpal, I wouldn't switch.
I'm using PF at the moment. The overall debuff is stronger, and it's really cheap...so who can argue with that?
I can't.
I know it's not Feytouch/Vorpal but how do you like it damage wise?
So for flat personal DPS atm assuming Transcendant Feytouched > Transcendant Vorpal > Transcendant PF?
TFT is going to be 18% plus the extra damage.
TV is going to be harder to calculate exactly, but I think if you subtract your average % Storm Spell damage, then multiple that by your average critical rate times 28%, then that should do it.
So for me, Storm Spell is still about 25% of my damage. And my average crit rate is about 80%. So 75% x 80% x 28% is about 17% damage increase. I guess you can then count the extra 2% resistance reduction from Vorpal and compare that to the value of reducing the damage of an enemy by 18% and it's probably a wash.
As far as PF, I would stop at Pure. The AOE from the T version is pretty weak, and not really worth the cost. Once they fix Terror, it'll be really, really nice at T level, but very expensive.
But for the CW on a budget, in terms of AD:Effectiveness, PF is the clear winner.
(sorry, can't put link, I can send it on PM)
Am I giving points in skills the right way (I try to follow this guide). Howewer I don't know how to stack Magic Mastery, or whatever is it called in english (Polish version here), because I need to use Magic Missile to stack it, while the guide says to use Chilling Cloud and RoF.
Second, I'm not sure if you've seen this:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1192994/control-wizard-disintegrate-does-only-50-damage-it-should
But I'm still keeping disintegrate.
Third, I noticed that on your post, you listed single target, but then for your scenario, it was slightly different. I believe it was specifically:
Icy Rays (on tab)
chill strike
Disintegrate
Ray of Enfeeblement
But then you mentioned you do:
CoI on Tab
Chill Strike
Disintegrate
Ray of Enfeeblement
May I inquire why? Just personal preference?
Thank you again, I found your posting very helpful and informative.
For me, it's still CoI on tab, Disintegrate, and Ray of Enfeeblement. If I feel good about getting close to the target, I'll keep Icy Terrain slotted.
As for Disintegrate, I'm not worried about the tooltips, or DPS testing on dummies. Tooltips are fairly unreliable in this game. Typically in any given dungeon run, Disintegrate will be 15% +/- of my total damage, usually the highest out of any encounter spell. Plus, the very short cooldown helps with Spell Twisting procs, so for me it's never leaving my bar.