So after today, will it become; "Control is the best control"?
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited June 2015
Please don't fill up my build thread with complaints and doomsaying over the death of CWs. I've seen CWs declared officially dead about 4 times now, and every time we come back better and stronger.
If you're interested in adapt to the changes and intelligently discussing these changes, please continue. Otherwise, there's plenty of threads to lament the changes in other parts of the forum.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
0
kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
So after today, will it become; "Control is the best control"?
Not as an oppressor, soon as there is another CW in the party, your capstone has issues (if the other CW freezes the target, your capstone isn't in play). But then again, pvp is your thing, so you will probably not have to worry about that.
Crowd Control has more than one meaning, and immune targets aren't impressed by anything but DPS....
Can you explain the change, i dont understand, whats 0.5 ICD? And if does not crit, then what will it do?
The ICD appears to be counted on a per-target basis, this means that SS can still proc on multiple enemies at once from AOEs. The real hit here is that crit severity will no longer increase it's damage, you will never see an SS proc over 50k again (this is assuming it's damage is still based on the attack that procced it, removing this would be a third nerf).
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited June 2015
If the ICD is on a per target basis, then that's actually very fair. I'm not crazy about it not being able to crit, but I understand why they're doing it...to be fair I hope that "procs can't crit" becomes consistent across the board.
But anyway, it just might mean that Crit Severity becomes substantially less important for CWs. All that really means is we don't use Vorpals any more, maybe back to PF or Terror. Or Feytouched?
However, I'm one of the few (apparently) CW's here who's not too worried about it. The reality is in most dungeon groups I'm running, I'm doubling the damage of most other classes (with the exception of some of my really well geared SW and GWF friends, but even them I'm still coming out 20-40% ahead). If the nerf puts our overall DPS down about 20%, that's probably justified.
And we knew when they tried to "balance" Storm Spell by making it only proc on crits, but upping the chance from 20% to 30% (which had the side effect of making it ALWAYS crit) that it was a gift.
Anyway, if you're a CW and you're reading this, please let's show the rest of the classes that we hold ourselves to a higher standard when it comes to nerfs and buffs. Don't feed the doomsayers, and don't yourself lament the changes.
Remember what is best in life. To crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of their women. I'm pretty sure we'll still be able to do all three on Thursday afternoon
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
0
aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited June 2015
If we lose 15%, I'll still end up on top, 90% of the time. Being on top is not even something I care about.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
As long as the boss dies and everyone gets loot, I could care less who wins Paingiver.
I've finished at the top thousands and thousands of times...never got anything special for it
Do you think your basic Thama Spellstorm will still be the god to build, or do you think MoF might have some light shown to it?
Im just curious on how much it will affect us (Lets be honest, a super nice part of SS was when you had multiple spells ticking off and criting, so the .5 ICD might be a big deal).
Do you think your basic Thama Spellstorm will still be the god to build, or do you think MoF might have some light shown to it?
Im just curious on how much it will affect us (Lets be honest, a super nice part of SS was when you had multiple spells ticking off and criting, so the .5 ICD might be a big deal).
Have look at this here post. It was merely a 5min Test in WoD but should give you a rough guesstimate what to expect. Read the lines beneath the graph and table in particular.
Have look at this here post. It was merely a 5min Test in WoD but should give you a rough guesstimate what to expect. Read the lines beneath the graph and table in particular.
Hm so if it IS per source it is a slap on the wrist and not the end of the world as it seems (as most spells dont tick per .5 seconds)
ironzerg I have a question about the Acolyte of Kelemvor. I'm currently using the Zhentarim Warlock exactly as per your guide and the Companion's Gift procs very fast, which I'm happy with.
The question about the Acolyte is: how much slower the proc is with it? Can I still benefit from fast procs using it? I have it al rank 33 and it procs quite slow so I'm not sure what to expect if I get it to legendary... Any light into this would be helpful.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
If the ICD is on a per target basis, then that's actually very fair. I'm not crazy about it not being able to crit, but I understand why they're doing it...to be fair I hope that "procs can't crit" becomes consistent across the board.
But anyway, it just might mean that Crit Severity becomes substantially less important for CWs. All that really means is we don't use Vorpals any more, maybe back to PF or Terror. Or Feytouched?
However, I'm one of the few (apparently) CW's here who's not too worried about it.
I have my suspicions that my own CW isn't going to notice a lot of difference. I use a Terror enchant, which means her crit damage is good but not HOLYFARK. I've never even considered putting her in a Lostmauth set, although I'm currently missing the bit of arpen and the int point lost from switching a purple BI belt for blue Valindra. It'll sort itself out. /shrug
ironzerg I have a question about the Acolyte of Kelemvor. I'm currently using the Zhentarim Warlock exactly as per your guide and the Companion's Gift procs very fast, which I'm happy with.
The question about the Acolyte is: how much slower the proc is with it? Can I still benefit from fast procs using it? I have it al rank 33 and it procs quite slow so I'm not sure what to expect if I get it to legendary... Any light into this would be helpful.
You can estimate how well a companion will proc companion's gift based on the cooldown times listed on its power tooltips. The Acolyte is a fairly fast caster, but I'm not sure there is anything out there as zippy as the Warlock.
ironzerg I have a question about the Acolyte of Kelemvor. I'm currently using the Zhentarim Warlock exactly as per your guide and the Companion's Gift procs very fast, which I'm happy with.
The question about the Acolyte is: how much slower the proc is with it? Can I still benefit from fast procs using it? I have it al rank 33 and it procs quite slow so I'm not sure what to expect if I get it to legendary... Any light into this would be helpful.
The Acolyte is more about surviving. If you're soloing tough encounters, the bonus to your lifesteal is going to substantially outweigh the benefit from faster proccing stacks of Companions Gift (or using an augment).
On a hard HE, like in IWD, surviving is more important that the moderate damage boost, as when you're dead, the game is over.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited June 2015
I'll take some time to work on any tweaks this weekend, but for now, I've updated the front page a bit:
I'll take some time to work on any tweaks this weekend, but for now, I've updated the front page a bit:
Haha well played:) Anyway I am looking forward to your testing, and just in case you dont know it already, we are a lot of players that really appriciate the Work you put into these posts:)
Haha well played:) Anyway I am looking forward to your testing, and just in case you dont know it already, we are a lot of players that really appriciate the Work you put into these posts:)
Yes we do!
Ive done some runs and while my damage seems a bit lower (Im getting less of the OMGCRITPROCCRITPROCCRITPROC feedback loops of massive damage) im still doing very good damage. Our single target damage is basically the same (a bit lower), while our AoE has been hit a little- atleast thats how it feels.
You can estimate how well a companion will proc companion's gift based on the cooldown times listed on its power tooltips. The Acolyte is a fairly fast caster, but I'm not sure there is anything out there as zippy as the Warlock.
Thanks for the info, although I already knew that. I was more concerned about how the "Expert Leader" / "Master Leader" ... 'powers' really affected those cooldowns (4s and 7s for it's 2 actual casted powers). Are those reduced somehow?
ironzerg I was asking mostly for dungeons.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Also, did some Temple of the Spider runs last night, and found that Storm Spell + Chilling Presence was still the best combination.
Here's one of the overall runs, just playing with the same set up from pre-nerf:
Here's the parse from the fight versus the last boss:
So still over 70k DPS for the trash clearing, and almost 110k DPS in the last boss fight? I'm not going to cry about that.
I did get beaten by a Warlock, but there's something crazy going on with the Damnation spec that's causing the Soul Puppet to hit for 1 million+ points of damage. 54% of her damage came from the Soul Puppet's claw swipe, so that definitely needs to be investigated
(so don't worry, our tears will soon be overrun by those of the SW soon)
EDIT: As for possible changes? I think the only major change might be the enchantment. Since a good chunk of our damage can critically hit anymore, Vorpal isn't quite as good. It might be worth it to look at Plague Fire or Terror (when it's fixed) as great team enchants, and possible Feytouched as a personal DPS alternative (although the debuff should be very useful in a dungeon). My only issue with Feytouch is it doesn't stack, so if multiple people in a group are using it, only one person is going to get the buff from it.
I did get beaten by a Warlock, but there's something crazy going on with the Damnation spec that's causing the Soul Puppet to hit for 1 million+ points of damage. 54% of her damage came from the Soul Puppet's claw swipe, so that definitely needs to be investigated
Thats reported a lot of times. I got a SW in german channel that claims "ok..maybe it scales a bit to hard, but its wai". Lol....
Thats obvious a bug. Hope they fix that soon. And this bug only works in dungeons. Got a SW in grp and his puppet mad 2,6 mio hits in tos. Well.. nn to say anymore about "its wai".
Also, did some Temple of the Spider runs last night, and found that Storm Spell + Chilling Presence was still the best combination.
Here's one of the overall runs, just playing with the same set up from pre-nerf:
.
Dear Ironzerg,
I was wondering how you succeed to get the extremely high 8% crit in regards to Storm Spell during the run you mentionned above.
Here is my ACT capture for a run of eCC last night with my main (CW Renegade with SS+Chilling Presence slotted) and I definitely did only 0% crit for SS as I was expecting after the patch.
Thanks !! (and definitely looking to read your comments on your Guide about How to adapt...:cool:)
I was wondering how you succeed to get the extremely high 8% crit in regards to Storm Spell during the run you mentionned above.
Here is my ACT capture for a run of eCC last night with my main (CW Renegade with SS+Chilling Presence slotted) and I definitely did only 0% crit for SS as I was expecting after the patch.
Thanks !! (and definitely looking to read your comments on your Guide about How to adapt...:cool:)
SS artifact Offhand Feature.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Total damage with CA and CRIT = base damage * (1+ 0.75 + sum of all crit severity bonuses + 0.15 + CHA bonus + CAbonus) * (1+blink dog %) * (1+ intellect devourer %)
The damage is additive, not multiplicative. Basically Base * (Critical Strike Bonus + Combat Advantage Bonus) * Blink Dog * Intellect Devourer
So, the first part of the nerf, the ICD/target isn't really a factor. BUT, when you talk about the overall damage, only one part of the total equation really got hit. In regards to this build, which thrives off combat advantage bonuses, the hit to overall damage is there, but combat advantage really helps mitigate a lot of the hit.
That (15% + CHA + CA Bonus) * 5% * 5% is still very relevant and still very powerful.
Had the CA Bonus been multiplicative with the Critical Bonus, the change would have been much more severe.
It just reinforces in my mind how powerful (and often underrated) CA really is.
Total damage with CA and CRIT = base damage * (1+ 0.75 + sum of all crit severity bonuses + 0.15 + CHA bonus + CAbonus) * (1+blink dog %) * (1+ intellect devourer %)
The damage is additive, not multiplicative. Basically Base * (Critical Strike Bonus + Combat Advantage Bonus) * Blink Dog * Intellect Devourer
So, the first part of the nerf, the ICD/target isn't really a factor. BUT, when you talk about the overall damage, only one part of the total equation really got hit. In regards to this build, which thrives off combat advantage bonuses, the hit to overall damage is there, but combat advantage really helps mitigate a lot of the hit.
That (15% + CHA + CA Bonus) * 5% * 5% is still very relevant and still very powerful.
Had the CA Bonus been multiplicative with the Critical Bonus, the change would have been much more severe.
It just reinforces in my mind how powerful (and often underrated) CA really is.
if I have this active companion:
Black Dragon Ioune Stone/Acolyte Kelemvor
Blink dog
Erinyes
Air Archon
Fire Archon
If I understand well, it's will be better for me to replace the Erinyes by the Intellect devourer to attenuate the change of spell storm,
because "non critical formula CA bonus" are multiplicative and StormSpell will be more boosted from the Intellect devourer than the Erinyes when CA is active.
is it right or I missed something?
And I Want to know if you have tested the Perfect Vorpal versus Perfect Plague Fire?
Thanks for all your work...
“He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
“He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
Comments
If you're interested in adapt to the changes and intelligently discussing these changes, please continue. Otherwise, there's plenty of threads to lament the changes in other parts of the forum.
Not as an oppressor, soon as there is another CW in the party, your capstone has issues (if the other CW freezes the target, your capstone isn't in play). But then again, pvp is your thing, so you will probably not have to worry about that.
Crowd Control has more than one meaning, and immune targets aren't impressed by anything but DPS....
The ICD appears to be counted on a per-target basis, this means that SS can still proc on multiple enemies at once from AOEs. The real hit here is that crit severity will no longer increase it's damage, you will never see an SS proc over 50k again (this is assuming it's damage is still based on the attack that procced it, removing this would be a third nerf).
But anyway, it just might mean that Crit Severity becomes substantially less important for CWs. All that really means is we don't use Vorpals any more, maybe back to PF or Terror. Or Feytouched?
However, I'm one of the few (apparently) CW's here who's not too worried about it. The reality is in most dungeon groups I'm running, I'm doubling the damage of most other classes (with the exception of some of my really well geared SW and GWF friends, but even them I'm still coming out 20-40% ahead). If the nerf puts our overall DPS down about 20%, that's probably justified.
And we knew when they tried to "balance" Storm Spell by making it only proc on crits, but upping the chance from 20% to 30% (which had the side effect of making it ALWAYS crit) that it was a gift.
Anyway, if you're a CW and you're reading this, please let's show the rest of the classes that we hold ourselves to a higher standard when it comes to nerfs and buffs. Don't feed the doomsayers, and don't yourself lament the changes.
Remember what is best in life. To crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of their women. I'm pretty sure we'll still be able to do all three on Thursday afternoon
As long as the boss dies and everyone gets loot, I could care less who wins Paingiver.
I've finished at the top thousands and thousands of times...never got anything special for it
This
/10char
Do you think your basic Thama Spellstorm will still be the god to build, or do you think MoF might have some light shown to it?
Im just curious on how much it will affect us (Lets be honest, a super nice part of SS was when you had multiple spells ticking off and criting, so the .5 ICD might be a big deal).
Have look at this here post. It was merely a 5min Test in WoD but should give you a rough guesstimate what to expect. Read the lines beneath the graph and table in particular.
Hm so if it IS per source it is a slap on the wrist and not the end of the world as it seems (as most spells dont tick per .5 seconds)
The question about the Acolyte is: how much slower the proc is with it? Can I still benefit from fast procs using it? I have it al rank 33 and it procs quite slow so I'm not sure what to expect if I get it to legendary... Any light into this would be helpful.
I have my suspicions that my own CW isn't going to notice a lot of difference. I use a Terror enchant, which means her crit damage is good but not HOLYFARK. I've never even considered putting her in a Lostmauth set, although I'm currently missing the bit of arpen and the int point lost from switching a purple BI belt for blue Valindra. It'll sort itself out. /shrug
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
You can estimate how well a companion will proc companion's gift based on the cooldown times listed on its power tooltips. The Acolyte is a fairly fast caster, but I'm not sure there is anything out there as zippy as the Warlock.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
The Acolyte is more about surviving. If you're soloing tough encounters, the bonus to your lifesteal is going to substantially outweigh the benefit from faster proccing stacks of Companions Gift (or using an augment).
On a hard HE, like in IWD, surviving is more important that the moderate damage boost, as when you're dead, the game is over.
Ha. I needed a smile. It's hard to after you've been mugged.
Haha well played:) Anyway I am looking forward to your testing, and just in case you dont know it already, we are a lot of players that really appriciate the Work you put into these posts:)
Yes we do!
Ive done some runs and while my damage seems a bit lower (Im getting less of the OMGCRITPROCCRITPROCCRITPROC feedback loops of massive damage) im still doing very good damage. Our single target damage is basically the same (a bit lower), while our AoE has been hit a little- atleast thats how it feels.
Thanks for the info, although I already knew that. I was more concerned about how the "Expert Leader" / "Master Leader" ... 'powers' really affected those cooldowns (4s and 7s for it's 2 actual casted powers). Are those reduced somehow?
ironzerg I was asking mostly for dungeons.
Stick with the Warlock for dungeons.
Also, did some Temple of the Spider runs last night, and found that Storm Spell + Chilling Presence was still the best combination.
Here's one of the overall runs, just playing with the same set up from pre-nerf:
Here's the parse from the fight versus the last boss:
So still over 70k DPS for the trash clearing, and almost 110k DPS in the last boss fight? I'm not going to cry about that.
I did get beaten by a Warlock, but there's something crazy going on with the Damnation spec that's causing the Soul Puppet to hit for 1 million+ points of damage. 54% of her damage came from the Soul Puppet's claw swipe, so that definitely needs to be investigated
(so don't worry, our tears will soon be overrun by those of the SW soon)
EDIT: As for possible changes? I think the only major change might be the enchantment. Since a good chunk of our damage can critically hit anymore, Vorpal isn't quite as good. It might be worth it to look at Plague Fire or Terror (when it's fixed) as great team enchants, and possible Feytouched as a personal DPS alternative (although the debuff should be very useful in a dungeon). My only issue with Feytouch is it doesn't stack, so if multiple people in a group are using it, only one person is going to get the buff from it.
Thats reported a lot of times. I got a SW in german channel that claims "ok..maybe it scales a bit to hard, but its wai". Lol....
Thats obvious a bug. Hope they fix that soon. And this bug only works in dungeons. Got a SW in grp and his puppet mad 2,6 mio hits in tos. Well.. nn to say anymore about "its wai".
Dear Ironzerg,
I was wondering how you succeed to get the extremely high
Here is my ACT capture for a run of eCC last night with my main (CW Renegade with SS+Chilling Presence slotted) and I definitely did only 0% crit for SS as I was expecting after the patch.
Thanks !! (and definitely looking to read your comments on your Guide about How to adapt...:cool:)
Total damage with CA and CRIT = base damage * (1+ 0.75 + sum of all crit severity bonuses + 0.15 + CHA bonus + CAbonus) * (1+blink dog %) * (1+ intellect devourer %)
The damage is additive, not multiplicative. Basically Base * (Critical Strike Bonus + Combat Advantage Bonus) * Blink Dog * Intellect Devourer
So, the first part of the nerf, the ICD/target isn't really a factor. BUT, when you talk about the overall damage, only one part of the total equation really got hit. In regards to this build, which thrives off combat advantage bonuses, the hit to overall damage is there, but combat advantage really helps mitigate a lot of the hit.
That (15% + CHA + CA Bonus) * 5% * 5% is still very relevant and still very powerful.
Had the CA Bonus been multiplicative with the Critical Bonus, the change would have been much more severe.
It just reinforces in my mind how powerful (and often underrated) CA really is.
if I have this active companion:
Black Dragon Ioune Stone/Acolyte Kelemvor
Blink dog
Erinyes
Air Archon
Fire Archon
If I understand well, it's will be better for me to replace the Erinyes by the Intellect devourer to attenuate the change of spell storm,
because "non critical formula CA bonus" are multiplicative and StormSpell will be more boosted from the Intellect devourer than the Erinyes when CA is active.
is it right or I missed something?
And I Want to know if you have tested the Perfect Vorpal versus Perfect Plague Fire?
Thanks for all your work...
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers