I've had a few people, particularly Xboxers message me about a gear update now that Mod 6 is coming to Xbox. I'll probably work on getting an updated gear guide done this week, guys.
Can't wait to see this. Long time Xbox player who has been using your guide and REALLY appreciate it. Can't wait till we get mod 6 next week!
Hi, if someone could give me some advice please... I'm about to get a zen companion. I got 1500 zen. Not sure if I should go with Ioun Stone of Allure or Acolyte of Kelemvor. I'm at level 20 following this build for my CW. Thanks
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
My advice would be to save it until you get close to level 70.
Hey ironzerg was wondering what order do you use as a rotation? Say for pve quests ?
Usually lead with CoI, teleport in, drop Icy Terrain, then Oppressive Force if I have a daily, or else I scoot back a bit and Steal Time, Disintegrate, then repeat if necessary.
In dungeons, I'll generally CoI, Oppressive Force or Steal Time, then Icy Terrain once the monsters are stunned, if it's a heavy pull. If not, I just sort of wade right in and start casting like I'm made of adamantium...with the recent dungeon changes, it's starting to feel like that again.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Hey ironzerg was wondering what order do you use as a rotation? Say for pve quests ?
Usually lead with CoI, teleport in, drop Icy Terrain, then Oppressive Force if I have a daily, or else I scoot back a bit and Steal Time, Disintegrate, then repeat if necessary.
In dungeons, I'll generally CoI, Oppressive Force or Steal Time, then Icy Terrain once the monsters are stunned, if it's a heavy pull. If not, I just sort of wade right in and start casting like I'm made of adamantium...with the recent dungeon changes, it's starting to feel like that again.
Only starting? With a 2k group we doing 9 min etos, just running from 1 boss to another and mass clearing. A CW or HR are all you really need in order for the support to be able to cope with the damage, assuming its a gf and dc, if the support is in the form of a pally, well, then you can just run regardless. We tried ecc and egwd but ecc has too many doors, you effectively have to clear pack by lack and due to the mechanics of the last fight in egwd, the fight drags on for too long.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Haha...right.
If you bring the right group in, it's a breeze now. We did eGWD without a healer last night. I didn't even notice until we got to the last boss. And we burned the boss down in 2 or 3 transformation phases. We don't pop caskets on Valindra, and I can remember the last time she lived long enough to actually summon skeletons. You actively have to try to die on Fulminorax, and the only thing that kills most people in Lostmauth is getting pinballed by fireball lag.
Temple of the Spider is a breeze...I'm actually wondering how soon it will be before I can solo it. And the entire walk to the Pirate at the end of Cragmire is a yawner, but it's hard to remember when that boss was so challenging. I can't believe I hear about groups that actually need to exploit that fight.
I'm hoping that Module 8 brings some new, harder dungeons. I don't mind that we're in a situation where people who struggled in Mod 6 with the dungeons can now catch up in Mod 7, but all the dungeon content is pretty trivial for a guild that knows what it's doing now.
I change my mind about this build. After gearing up some more I realize this is way better than any other build I've tried, it does well on the boards as well as help others do well on the board helping bosses die making my ego feel very good. When mod 6 comes to Xbox in two days I will be keeping this build and hoping for cw to get buffed
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
If you bring the right group in, it's a breeze now. We did eGWD without a healer last night. I didn't even notice until we got to the last boss. And we burned the boss down in 2 or 3 transformation phases. We don't pop caskets on Valindra, and I can remember the last time she lived long enough to actually summon skeletons. You actively have to try to die on Fulminorax, and the only thing that kills most people in Lostmauth is getting pinballed by fireball lag.
Temple of the Spider is a breeze...I'm actually wondering how soon it will be before I can solo it. And the entire walk to the Pirate at the end of Cragmire is a yawner, but it's hard to remember when that boss was so challenging. I can't believe I hear about groups that actually need to exploit that fight.
I'm hoping that Module 8 brings some new, harder dungeons. I don't mind that we're in a situation where people who struggled in Mod 6 with the dungeons can now catch up in Mod 7, but all the dungeon content is pretty trivial for a guild that knows what it's doing now.
Something I think that is important to note, especially with your build, is that it is heavily gear dependent. Whilst it is probably along the lines of the optimal way to play a CW in pve, if you are suggesting a build to someone sitting at around 2k, its probably better for them to play MoF. This is because whenever they are running with any dps who are better geared then them, the MoF debuffs will be causing more death (your ideal form of crown control, as defined by your title ) then the loss of personal damage. This is the route I have opted for, as my CW is sitting at about 2.5k and as I have the privilege of running with some 4k players who know what they doing some times, its probably for the best that they get the benefit of those debuffs.
Tbh, the fact that I really couldn't care less about gearing up characters at this point has shifted me more towards support chars this mod. This is because they are much less gear dependent whilst still being an asset in a group when played correctly. Whilst I would like to take up my CW as my main again at some stage, I am just not willing to put in the level of grind required in order to do that, especially now that its really difficult to farm dungeon drops for AD (I know this firsthand, I got 13 elol horn drops to my name combined from mod 6 and 7 ) and I am not willing to play the leadership alt game.
This build isn't gear dependent to work. It works as you level up, as you turn 70 and as you get more gear. But what is does do is GET BETTER the more gear you get. It's not a build were you do one thing to a certain point, then do something completely different at another point. And that's by design. There's no piece of gear or magic trick that makes this build work.
And to your point about buffing a group with four other 4k+ iLevel players...What's easier for a person to find? Four 4k+ iLevel friends who are always going to be there to run with, or getting geared up yourself. And even to that point if that's who you're running with, you should be carried to a 2500-3000 iLevel in a night or two of dungeons, anyway
And unless I'm mistaken, the only thing a MoF has debuff wise that a SS doesn't is SoD. Now a 20% damage buff is great, but it's hardly makes or breaks a group. And it's just one of another possible stack of buffs that a SS CW brings to the table anyway. +5% crit strike for the group. Nearly perfect combat advantage up-time. Big boosts from Chaos Magic...so sure, SoD is the icing on the cake, no doubt...but the SS CW is still bring A LOT of cake to the party. Plus, when you don't have your friends around to carry you, and you're expected to step up and lead a group, I think it's the better build.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
This build isn't gear dependent to work. It works as you level up, as you turn 70 and as you get more gear. But what is does do is GET BETTER the more gear you get. It's not a build were you do one thing to a certain point, then do something completely different at another point. And that's by design. There's no piece of gear or magic trick that makes this build work.
And to your point about buffing a group with four other 4k+ iLevel players...What's easier for a person to find? Four 4k+ iLevel friends who are always going to be there to run with, or getting geared up yourself. And even to that point if that's who you're running with, you should be carried to a 2500-3000 iLevel in a night or two of dungeons, anyway
And unless I'm mistaken, the only thing a MoF has debuff wise that a SS doesn't is SoD. Now a 20% damage buff is great, but it's hardly makes or breaks a group. And it's just one of another possible stack of buffs that a SS CW brings to the table anyway. +5% crit strike for the group. Nearly perfect combat advantage up-time. Big boosts from Chaos Magic...so sure, SoD is the icing on the cake, no doubt...but the SS CW is still bring A LOT of cake to the party. Plus, when you don't have your friends around to carry you, and you're expected to step up and lead a group, I think it's the better build.
We will have to agree to disagree then, I know from when I have run with players on my CW, they are far happier to have a MoF around then a SS ren. The reason being big numbers. When you say, "A 20% damage buff is great, but it hardly makes or breaks a group" think about it this way. In mod 5 and prior mods, the hv set was considered BiS because it was a 30% debuff. Now, assume that the debuff worked only for your allies and not for you, would that make it any less relevant? Say you in a group with equally geared players and are bashing a boss with 100M life. Lets say that atm you are SS ren and that swapping would lose you 33% of your damage. Lets say you did 36M damage over the coarse of the fight and the other 2 did 32M each. Swapping to MoF ren would lose you 12M damage, taking you down to 24M, but would gain the other two would gain 6.4M damage each, resulting in a gain of .8M damage. That means in this situation where you are doing the most damage in the group and in every single situation where you deal less damage then this, its better for you to be MoF.
Yes, SS ren is better at trash clearing, this is always a given, but is trash clearing what dungeons are about? No, the big hurdle in dungeons is the bosses. The bosses are the most time consuming things to kill and more often then not, a MoF ren will boost the party damage more then an SS ren will contribute. That was only looking at a situation with 3mmain dps contributors, say you were running with a righteous dc and a 4th dps player, suddenly, in almost every single case, running as a MoF will net out more damage in a party then an SS ren.
Also, by gear dependency, I mean it in the sense that the classes effectiveness scales HEAVILY off of its gear. That is, if there was a graph showing how effective the CW is, the gradient would be steeper for a CW then for a cleric. This is the nature of a dps class, its easy to draw a correlation between its gear and its power, where as the power of clerics mainly stems from the buffs they provide and the power of a devotion paladin scales off only recovery, arp, hp and defense anyhow.
Obviously, when you are running with bad groups of players, its probably better to run as a SS ren then a MoF. However, I am going to make the educated guess that you don't often run dungeons with bad players and when running with a good GWF who is similarly geared, the damage they output will either be equal to or greater then yours. The same is true for whoever the 3rd, (or even 4th and 5th) dps is in your party, unless they are tr's and so for the purposes of bursting down that boss, MoF ren is almost always better.
I understand the benefits of SS ren, Ive played it from mod 0-mod 5 and I had a great time doing so. However, I have also come to understand the benefits of MoF ren. It isn't so visible when you can burst down everything in a matter of seconds, but in any horribly geared group, the difference becomes apparent. For your amazing geared group, this is how you check it, you take out a stopwatch at traven blackdagger at the start of the fight and you time how long it takes you to kill him as a group, both as SS ren and as MoF ren. You will then see the difference in speed. In a horribly geared group its much easier to see, its generally the difference between wiping and not wiping from the adds.
At the end of the day, lets look at it this way. From a purely objective standpoint, if you were running with me, would you rather I was playing MoF or SS ren? It is a given that with the vast differences in our gear, you are going to do far more damage then me anyhow, so what would benefit the party more? The argument I am trying to make is one of relative gearing. If you are a 2k ilvl CW, almost everyone you group with will be better geared then you and if they know what they doing, better gear does, (for all classes except devotion paladin) equal better dps. Now anyone running in groups that intend to beat traven backdagger, is probably in a group that knows what its doing. So from my perspective and anyone in my shoes, is it not better to play MoF ren?
Finally, a little bit of defending ones own ego here, I do not get "carried" through dungeons, being carried implies that I would not be able to manage without them As an aside note, I think its about time Chems CW compendium gets retired as everything you once needed to know, whilst there is still a lot of valid info there, much of it is also out of date and because of this, the guide should probably not be the thing stickied right at the top as the first thing people see when looking for how to build a CW.
I am on Xbox and have used ironzergs build(which I love) for most of my play time but would be interested in playing around with another build just for fun. The spell storm Renegade build is awesome but 9 out of 10 CW run with it and I'm guessing have a different build could be beneficial.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited September 2015
@thefabricant I've done both. Prior to the Spellstorm buffs, I was exclusively a MoF (and one of the first big advocates for that path, alongside Chemboy). Following the Module 4 and 5 changes, I tested both builds extensively in dungeon settings, doing EXACTLY what you described with the exact same group make up. The only difference was that I was MoF for some of the runs, and SS for others...and literally respecing in between runs to get more precise comparisons.
And I found that even with the SoD +20% buff, the overall damage of the group was still higher running my SS Renegade build than with any other MoF build I could put together. Since Module 5, I've respec'd back and forth probably 20 times figuring out the differences between both, and each time, in a real-world, live-fire dungeon, the groups (regardless of gear level) always performed better overall when I was spec'd as an SS vs MoF.
I had started sketching out an MoF section to my guide...if you read back a few pages, I even made mention of it...but after doing more testing, I just found it so underperformed in nearly every situation, it really wasn't worth the time to put a guide up.
I'm anxious to see what changes to classes happen in Module 8. And I've said it many times before, the MoF needs a few tweaks to help make it more competitive with SS builds, and we'll see greater parity. I think a small change like having the MoF apply smolder on crits by default (and just eliminating the Rimfire mechanic) would be a big step in the right direction.
I WANT both Paragon Paths to be on par. I'm not married to the SS builds. I don't care which is "better". Heck, the only reason I took the effort to put this guide together months and months ago was because people were adamant that the Thaumaturge path was THE path for CWs, and nothing else matter. I put together this guide to show people that a CW who was focused on buffing the team, while still doing very competitive damage, was more effective in groups than a CW whose soul focus was their own damage. I've also been a huge advocate of building for boss fights, not trash clearing.
And that's what this build does extremely well.
Great personal damage - Check Great team buffs - Check Great crowd control - Check Great at trash - Check Great on bosses - Check
But the other part is this. I've put out a guide. My build and philosophy is 100% transparent for everyone to see. And judging by the 230k+ views it's gotten, I'd say people like it because it works.
If you have other ideas, put them out there. Share your build, you data and let's evaluate it. I'm always open to new ideas and builds, but besides the nerf to Storm Spell, nothing much has changed for CW's in the last few months.
Maybe Module 8 changes that...and hopefully it does. One of my favorite parts of MMOs is theorycrafting and optimizing builds, and there hasn't been much need for that in the last few months.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
A that was a big tl:dr.
So let me emphasis this, because it's important that everyone reading this thread understands it:
I would love to be able to add an MoF section to this guide for Module 8, and expand the guide to cover EVERYTHING Renegade. More choices are good. Always have been, always will. But given the current state of things, I'm not comfortable recommending MoF as an optimal build choice right now.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
So let me emphasis this, because it's important that everyone reading this thread understands it:
I would love to be able to add an MoF section to this guide for Module 8, and expand the guide to cover EVERYTHING Renegade. More choices are good. Always have been, always will. But given the current state of things, I'm not comfortable recommending MoF as an optimal build choice right now.
As I said, I am sure we can agree to disagree and then move on. At the end of the day, were I in a position similar to yours, with access to similar resources, I would be running a build similar to yours. I feel in my circumstances though MoF is the better choice, but to pretty much everyone around, I would probably recommend firstly to try building a CW yourself, testing to see what works and learning about the class, then I would recommend your guide.
I do feel a lot of emphasis needs to be put on the idea of self testing though, because players learn a lot more from making mistakes (at least thats the way I feel and I have made a lot of them) then they do from simply reading.
hey ironzerg i may of missed it but what artifact set would u suggest for the cw in mod 6. (Belt Cloack and Artifact) Should we be using lostmauth set even tho the belt has strength and dex
What Artifact Class Feature is best in your opinion: Storm Spell or Chilling?
Storm Spell, it's a nobrainer. The 2nd hit can crit and also ignores the 0,5 sec ICD.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
That's correct. Storm Spell is still the stronger of the two. The bonus hit can proc off any damage, and it can still critically hit.
As for Artifact Suggestions...that's tough. Lostmauth's Set is the no-brainer here, although it's horribly, horribly, without doubt broken. I relented last week a purchased the set on the cheap, and the amount of damage it adds is absolutely insane. It might be 20-30% of your total damage done, which means it's actually a 30-40% damage increase in certain cases.
I was sure for the longest time it would be nerfed...maybe with Module 8 changes coming? So I can't in good conscious recommend something that's broken. Buy it, but beware...it can't possibly last forever.
Otherwise, right now there's no set that's super strong for CWs. The Valindra set bonus is fairly weak, so I just went with the Valindra Belt for the +2 int/cha, and then the Dragon cloak, since it was essentially free for me with the extra Linu's favors. But really, anything that gives you +AP gain.
Prior to the Spellstorm buffs, I was exclusively a MoF (and one of the first big advocates for that path, alongside Chemboy). Following the Module 4 and 5 changes, I tested both builds extensively in dungeon settings, doing EXACTLY what you described with the exact same group make up. The only difference was that I was MoF for some of the runs, and SS for others...and literally respecing in between runs to get more precise comparisons.
And I found that even with the SoD +20% buff, the overall damage of the group was still higher running my SS Renegade build than with any other MoF build I could put together. Since Module 5, I've respec'd back and forth probably 20 times figuring out the differences between both, and each time, in a real-world, live-fire dungeon, the groups (regardless of gear level) always performed better overall when I was spec'd as an SS vs MoF.
Have you done this same level of testing after the Storm Spell nerf? According to the following testing on dummies, a MoF build with SoD and CP out-performed all tested SS builds:
With the extra +20% group damage bonus from SoD, it seems like MoF could be the more optimal path (post-nerf). Granted, the testing was on dummies, so it's not the same as running several controlled dungeon parses back-to-back with the same group.
I'm on Xbox, so I don't have the luxury of running parses on the combat log.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
What I've done for my testing (due to the lack of reliability on spells consistently hitting multiple dummies, etc during tests) is utilize the single testing dummy in IWD at the end of the docks, and testing out AOE and ST rotations. I find otherwise DPS testing the Trade of Blades or in Dread Ring versus multiple dummies doesn't provide very accurate results.
I'd be curious to see what your tests showed in single target testing vs the solitary dummy in IWD, MoF vs SS.
When I get home this weekend, I'll run a few more tests myself.
I'd be curious to see what your tests showed in single target testing vs the solitary dummy in IWD, MoF vs SS.
Those weren't my tests. I found the article while searching for info about the SS nerf. As I said, I'm on Xbox, so I can't run a parse of the combat log - there is no reliable way to test builds on Xbox.
When capped at over 66% ARP, and sitting at 70% Crit and 27K Power and 20% LS, does it make sense to go back to the 99 ilv crit/LS rings or move to the Power/Recovery rings?
When capped at over 66% ARP, and sitting at 70% Crit and 27K Power and 20% LS, does it make sense to go back to the 99 ilv crit/LS rings or move to the Power/Recovery rings?
PVE, I would go for power/ recovery. Loking at your stats, you went for R 12 brutals and you might nt have that much recovery.
Zerg, , First off thank you for the guide. I found it an excellent, easy to read, step by step breakdown of what you have found. I've poured over it for some time now in anticipation of this release on Xbox and have changed from a Thaum to Renegade. I was hoping to pick your brain some regarding some things I'm seeing on the xbox Rene.
I'm currently at 10k Power, 50% Crit Chance (unbuffed), 41% Arm Pen (unbuffed), 11% AP gain, and 7% Comb Adv Bonus. My gems are all 8's and 9's and I'm still working on rounding out my personalized rings for this mod, armors, and artifact gear set. My pets are very well aligned to what you have listed, as is the feats/powers set-up. All my regular spells are at rank 4.
I am able to rotate between adding chill stacks, controlling, and freezing mobs very effectively in the new zones (Sharandar, Dread Ring, and IWD) but am seeing a huge difference in my effectiveness in dungeons. Especially compared to other wizards running different builds. For instance, my crits fly all over the place in regular zones, but seem to fizzle in dungeons. Also, my ability to utilize spells like Icy Terrain and COI (TAB) on dungeon mobs seems to go to pot altogether. What I'm seeing is "Immune" pop up on almost everything when using these spells. I'm assuming this could possibly lead to lack of ability to add chill stacks; therefore, missing out on many personal damage buffs as a result. Group buffs remain exceptional.
Did you notice anything like this while you were building up your CW? I'm sure I could very well be missing some key ingredient in my rotations or proc's, but I'm a little concerned with my personal lackluster damage output while running dungeons. Please note, this is in no way intended to be a criticism of the build, rather an inquiry as to what I may be missing.
I have fully expected to trade some damage output for team buffing, and I do welcome the change. I find this build rather fun to play, watch, and react to. My concern is what I am doing wrong to warrant such low damage output. I was hoping you'd have some input, despite only being able to test on PC.
Comments
Thanks @ironzerg79
if someone could give me some advice please...
I'm about to get a zen companion. I got 1500 zen.
Not sure if I should go with Ioun Stone of Allure or Acolyte of Kelemvor. I'm at level 20 following this build for my CW.
Thanks
In dungeons, I'll generally CoI, Oppressive Force or Steal Time, then Icy Terrain once the monsters are stunned, if it's a heavy pull. If not, I just sort of wade right in and start casting like I'm made of adamantium...with the recent dungeon changes, it's starting to feel like that again.
If you bring the right group in, it's a breeze now. We did eGWD without a healer last night. I didn't even notice until we got to the last boss. And we burned the boss down in 2 or 3 transformation phases. We don't pop caskets on Valindra, and I can remember the last time she lived long enough to actually summon skeletons. You actively have to try to die on Fulminorax, and the only thing that kills most people in Lostmauth is getting pinballed by fireball lag.
Temple of the Spider is a breeze...I'm actually wondering how soon it will be before I can solo it. And the entire walk to the Pirate at the end of Cragmire is a yawner, but it's hard to remember when that boss was so challenging. I can't believe I hear about groups that actually need to exploit that fight.
I'm hoping that Module 8 brings some new, harder dungeons. I don't mind that we're in a situation where people who struggled in Mod 6 with the dungeons can now catch up in Mod 7, but all the dungeon content is pretty trivial for a guild that knows what it's doing now.
Tbh, the fact that I really couldn't care less about gearing up characters at this point has shifted me more towards support chars this mod. This is because they are much less gear dependent whilst still being an asset in a group when played correctly. Whilst I would like to take up my CW as my main again at some stage, I am just not willing to put in the level of grind required in order to do that, especially now that its really difficult to farm dungeon drops for AD (I know this firsthand, I got 13 elol horn drops to my name combined from mod 6 and 7
This build isn't gear dependent to work. It works as you level up, as you turn 70 and as you get more gear. But what is does do is GET BETTER the more gear you get. It's not a build were you do one thing to a certain point, then do something completely different at another point. And that's by design. There's no piece of gear or magic trick that makes this build work.
And to your point about buffing a group with four other 4k+ iLevel players...What's easier for a person to find? Four 4k+ iLevel friends who are always going to be there to run with, or getting geared up yourself. And even to that point if that's who you're running with, you should be carried to a 2500-3000 iLevel in a night or two of dungeons, anyway
And unless I'm mistaken, the only thing a MoF has debuff wise that a SS doesn't is SoD. Now a 20% damage buff is great, but it's hardly makes or breaks a group. And it's just one of another possible stack of buffs that a SS CW brings to the table anyway. +5% crit strike for the group. Nearly perfect combat advantage up-time. Big boosts from Chaos Magic...so sure, SoD is the icing on the cake, no doubt...but the SS CW is still bring A LOT of cake to the party. Plus, when you don't have your friends around to carry you, and you're expected to step up and lead a group, I think it's the better build.
Yes, SS ren is better at trash clearing, this is always a given, but is trash clearing what dungeons are about? No, the big hurdle in dungeons is the bosses. The bosses are the most time consuming things to kill and more often then not, a MoF ren will boost the party damage more then an SS ren will contribute. That was only looking at a situation with 3mmain dps contributors, say you were running with a righteous dc and a 4th dps player, suddenly, in almost every single case, running as a MoF will net out more damage in a party then an SS ren.
Also, by gear dependency, I mean it in the sense that the classes effectiveness scales HEAVILY off of its gear. That is, if there was a graph showing how effective the CW is, the gradient would be steeper for a CW then for a cleric. This is the nature of a dps class, its easy to draw a correlation between its gear and its power, where as the power of clerics mainly stems from the buffs they provide and the power of a devotion paladin scales off only recovery, arp, hp and defense anyhow.
Obviously, when you are running with bad groups of players, its probably better to run as a SS ren then a MoF. However, I am going to make the educated guess that you don't often run dungeons with bad players and when running with a good GWF who is similarly geared, the damage they output will either be equal to or greater then yours. The same is true for whoever the 3rd, (or even 4th and 5th) dps is in your party, unless they are tr's and so for the purposes of bursting down that boss, MoF ren is almost always better.
I understand the benefits of SS ren, Ive played it from mod 0-mod 5 and I had a great time doing so. However, I have also come to understand the benefits of MoF ren. It isn't so visible when you can burst down everything in a matter of seconds, but in any horribly geared group, the difference becomes apparent. For your amazing geared group, this is how you check it, you take out a stopwatch at traven blackdagger at the start of the fight and you time how long it takes you to kill him as a group, both as SS ren and as MoF ren. You will then see the difference in speed. In a horribly geared group its much easier to see, its generally the difference between wiping and not wiping from the adds.
At the end of the day, lets look at it this way. From a purely objective standpoint, if you were running with me, would you rather I was playing MoF or SS ren? It is a given that with the vast differences in our gear, you are going to do far more damage then me anyhow, so what would benefit the party more? The argument I am trying to make is one of relative gearing. If you are a 2k ilvl CW, almost everyone you group with will be better geared then you and if they know what they doing, better gear does, (for all classes except devotion paladin) equal better dps. Now anyone running in groups that intend to beat traven backdagger, is probably in a group that knows what its doing. So from my perspective and anyone in my shoes, is it not better to play MoF ren?
Finally, a little bit of defending ones own ego here, I do not get "carried" through dungeons, being carried implies that I would not be able to manage without them
I am on Xbox and have used ironzergs build(which I love) for most of my play time but would be interested in playing around with another build just for fun. The spell storm Renegade build is awesome but 9 out of 10 CW run with it and I'm guessing have a different build could be beneficial.
And I found that even with the SoD +20% buff, the overall damage of the group was still higher running my SS Renegade build than with any other MoF build I could put together. Since Module 5, I've respec'd back and forth probably 20 times figuring out the differences between both, and each time, in a real-world, live-fire dungeon, the groups (regardless of gear level) always performed better overall when I was spec'd as an SS vs MoF.
I had started sketching out an MoF section to my guide...if you read back a few pages, I even made mention of it...but after doing more testing, I just found it so underperformed in nearly every situation, it really wasn't worth the time to put a guide up.
I'm anxious to see what changes to classes happen in Module 8. And I've said it many times before, the MoF needs a few tweaks to help make it more competitive with SS builds, and we'll see greater parity. I think a small change like having the MoF apply smolder on crits by default (and just eliminating the Rimfire mechanic) would be a big step in the right direction.
I WANT both Paragon Paths to be on par. I'm not married to the SS builds. I don't care which is "better". Heck, the only reason I took the effort to put this guide together months and months ago was because people were adamant that the Thaumaturge path was THE path for CWs, and nothing else matter. I put together this guide to show people that a CW who was focused on buffing the team, while still doing very competitive damage, was more effective in groups than a CW whose soul focus was their own damage. I've also been a huge advocate of building for boss fights, not trash clearing.
And that's what this build does extremely well.
Great personal damage - Check
Great team buffs - Check
Great crowd control - Check
Great at trash - Check
Great on bosses - Check
But the other part is this. I've put out a guide. My build and philosophy is 100% transparent for everyone to see. And judging by the 230k+ views it's gotten, I'd say people like it because it works.
If you have other ideas, put them out there. Share your build, you data and let's evaluate it. I'm always open to new ideas and builds, but besides the nerf to Storm Spell, nothing much has changed for CW's in the last few months.
Maybe Module 8 changes that...and hopefully it does. One of my favorite parts of MMOs is theorycrafting and optimizing builds, and there hasn't been much need for that in the last few months.
So let me emphasis this, because it's important that everyone reading this thread understands it:
I would love to be able to add an MoF section to this guide for Module 8, and expand the guide to cover EVERYTHING Renegade. More choices are good. Always have been, always will. But given the current state of things, I'm not comfortable recommending MoF as an optimal build choice right now.
I do feel a lot of emphasis needs to be put on the idea of self testing though, because players learn a lot more from making mistakes (at least thats the way I feel and I have made a lot of them) then they do from simply reading.
Storm Spell, it's a nobrainer. The 2nd hit can crit and also ignores the 0,5 sec ICD.
As for Artifact Suggestions...that's tough. Lostmauth's Set is the no-brainer here, although it's horribly, horribly, without doubt broken. I relented last week a purchased the set on the cheap, and the amount of damage it adds is absolutely insane. It might be 20-30% of your total damage done, which means it's actually a 30-40% damage increase in certain cases.
I was sure for the longest time it would be nerfed...maybe with Module 8 changes coming? So I can't in good conscious recommend something that's broken. Buy it, but beware...it can't possibly last forever.
Otherwise, right now there's no set that's super strong for CWs. The Valindra set bonus is fairly weak, so I just went with the Valindra Belt for the +2 int/cha, and then the Dragon cloak, since it was essentially free for me with the extra Linu's favors. But really, anything that gives you +AP gain.
Have you done this same level of testing after the Storm Spell nerf? According to the following testing on dummies, a MoF build with SoD and CP out-performed all tested SS builds:
http://blog.nwo-uncensored.com/cw-pve-dps-test-after-the-storm-spell-nerf/
With the extra +20% group damage bonus from SoD, it seems like MoF could be the more optimal path (post-nerf). Granted, the testing was on dummies, so it's not the same as running several controlled dungeon parses back-to-back with the same group.
I'm on Xbox, so I don't have the luxury of running parses on the combat log.
I'd be curious to see what your tests showed in single target testing vs the solitary dummy in IWD, MoF vs SS.
When I get home this weekend, I'll run a few more tests myself.
When capped at over 66% ARP, and sitting at 70% Crit and 27K Power and 20% LS, does it make sense to go back to the 99 ilv crit/LS rings or move to the Power/Recovery rings?
,
First off thank you for the guide. I found it an excellent, easy to read, step by step breakdown of what you have found. I've poured over it for some time now in anticipation of this release on Xbox and have changed from a Thaum to Renegade. I was hoping to pick your brain some regarding some things I'm seeing on the xbox Rene.
I'm currently at 10k Power, 50% Crit Chance (unbuffed), 41% Arm Pen (unbuffed), 11% AP gain, and 7% Comb Adv Bonus. My gems are all 8's and 9's and I'm still working on rounding out my personalized rings for this mod, armors, and artifact gear set. My pets are very well aligned to what you have listed, as is the feats/powers set-up. All my regular spells are at rank 4.
I am able to rotate between adding chill stacks, controlling, and freezing mobs very effectively in the new zones (Sharandar, Dread Ring, and IWD) but am seeing a huge difference in my effectiveness in dungeons. Especially compared to other wizards running different builds. For instance, my crits fly all over the place in regular zones, but seem to fizzle in dungeons. Also, my ability to utilize spells like Icy Terrain and COI (TAB) on dungeon mobs seems to go to pot altogether. What I'm seeing is "Immune" pop up on almost everything when using these spells. I'm assuming this could possibly lead to lack of ability to add chill stacks; therefore, missing out on many personal damage buffs as a result. Group buffs remain exceptional.
Did you notice anything like this while you were building up your CW? I'm sure I could very well be missing some key ingredient in my rotations or proc's, but I'm a little concerned with my personal lackluster damage output while running dungeons. Please note, this is in no way intended to be a criticism of the build, rather an inquiry as to what I may be missing.
I have fully expected to trade some damage output for team buffing, and I do welcome the change. I find this build rather fun to play, watch, and react to. My concern is what I am doing wrong to warrant such low damage output. I was hoping you'd have some input, despite only being able to test on PC.
Any thoughts would be appreciate.