Uhhh the CW has to press the button to cause it to pop ?
Be so much easier to deal with if when it broke, it like.. Actually broke. and when broken it no longer provides DR.Then there was an actual downtime on shield. It'd still do its job of blocking high damage burst openings , and adding some survivability, but it would be able to be taken down and cause cw's to have to play more like a cloth wearing wizard and like, Not face-tank anything they feel like.
I also get that control wizards are a Control Primary class (Not a Striker Primary), and require having a lot of CC (Thus should not double or triple the dps of Primary Strikers as shown by pretty much every combatlog / video) , But its frustrating when I play my GWF or TR and get knocked back off the edge's of platforms / maps by their pushes, sometimes even when unstoppable or in a dodgeroll/ITC, This push feels WAY too far sometimes. I know that CW have it as a "gap-creator" which makes sense given what I said above about playing like an actual cloth wearing wizard, But when CC-immune, you should be just that. (same with Cleric push, But I believe that was fixed). I'm not saying here to nerf the control powers, I'm just saying they should respect immunity.
Why has no one posted that Shield Disappears after being hit a certain amount of times, and it is really hard to recast while dodging and trying not to die. try to do this in a dungeon with mobs on you, or a very deadly boss has is focused on you..
It truely is saddening to see how an honest attempt to explain a an often misunderstood CW mechanic quickly turned into a nerf/rant thread. Honestly. Really, really sad. Almost none of it is constructive, and only serves to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> eachother off. Why can't we argue using actual factual evidence, without insulting eachother or anything of the sort?
To answer your question
- Most people on this forum seem to play only 1 class at a time from what I can tell, so if you ask for a nerf/buff on X class, they will take it emotionally instead of logically. They have alot invested in that one character/class, therefore they react the way they do.
- People have posted critism with facts/math to back up their position such as “Ayroux”. The problem is people find it easier, including the OP, to ignore such posts and pick apart weaker posts.
- People thinking a power/mechanic is too powerful will turn a thread into a nerf/debate thread, that's just natural.
The fact we even need to compare the damage resistance of a CW to a tank class should raise enough red flags.
Also, for those argueing against GWFs, the shield is up 24/7 as a 25% minimum. A GWF needs to build determination usually by taking large amounts of damage to pop Unstopable which is then up for a few seconds, there is a huge difference, and then they're Gfs who cannot use encounters/dailys while blocking. Not only that, but a CW shield can stop a one shot, a GWF cannot survive a one shot.
Really? CW CC is next to useless in PvP unless you're fighting another CW. Every single class with the exception of CW has a way to get "on demand" CC immunity.
Go on then, how does a SW break free of CC? How about a HR? DC? GF? Pally?
Also, the CW ignores 67% of tenacity last time I checked, and it still seems to do fine in PvP when I have a match.
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Now, what would be a nice solution would be something like black ice damage, which they're sadly removing. What could happen is a simple “physical” and “magical” damage and damage resistance to start things off and allow more varied roles.
For example, a CW would be better at resisting magical attacks than a GWF, and a GWF would be better at resisting physical attacks than a CW.
Another idea could be to change Shield into a X stack ability that after X attacks breaks. For example it goes from 80% - 60% - 40% - 20% - 0, when it hits 0 it breaks and needs to be recast after a cooldown.
I'll tell you what this is really about. This isn't about balance, it is about agendas. Since day 1 of this game, players have been demanding CW nerf after CW nerf for one misguided reason after another.
Back in the Mod 0/Mod 1 days when it took a strong 3xCW party to finish CN, players demanded CW nerfs because it was "unfair" that CWs "got rich" off of CN. Never mind that at the time, that dungeon wasn't even realistically doable by less than 3xCWs.
When CWs were pure control singbots, players demanded CW nerfs because it took so many CWs to control the adds, so other players were "locked out" of parties. When CWs focused on AOE damage, players demanded CW nerfs because "control doesn't mean damage dealer" (which is a lie, but whatevs, it didn't stop the nerf calls).
When the Oppressor path finally got a much-deserved buff in Mod 4 to make that path viable for, you know, *control*, the PVP QQ was so overwhelming that it was nerfed again within 1 week, and now Oppressor is back to useless again.
When CWs focus on control, players demand nerfs. When CWs focus on damage, players demand nerfs. When CWS have one - ONE - tool that gives them extra DR in PVP against the overbuffed single-target striker class, players demand nerfs.
No matter what CWs say or do, it is never enough. So of course I'm going to get defensive whenever there is yet one more CW nerf thread on these forums.
I really don't see what the vision is that these complainers have for CW. I think that these people want CWs to be pure control bots that deal no damage in PVE, and to be free kills in PVP. That is what I have gathered anyway. So yes, naturally I object to that.
I'll tell you what this is really about. This isn't about balance, it is about agendas. Since day 1 of this game, players have been demanding CW nerf after CW nerf for one misguided reason after another.
Back in the Mod 0/Mod 1 days when it took a strong 3xCW party to finish CN, players demanded CW nerfs because it was "unfair" that CWs "got rich" off of CN. Never mind that at the time, that dungeon wasn't even realistically doable by less than 3xCWs.
When CWs were pure control singbots, players demanded CW nerfs because it took so many CWs to control the adds, so other players were "locked out" of parties. When CWs focused on AOE damage, players demanded CW nerfs because "control doesn't mean damage dealer" (which is a lie, but whatevs, it didn't stop the nerf calls).
When the Oppressor path finally got a much-deserved buff in Mod 4 to make that path viable for, you know, *control*, the PVP QQ was so overwhelming that it was nerfed again within 1 week, and now Oppressor is back to useless again.
When CWs focus on control, players demand nerfs. When CWs focus on damage, players demand nerfs. When CWS have one - ONE - tool that gives them extra DR in PVP against the overbuffed single-target striker class, players demand nerfs.
No matter what CWs say or do, it is never enough. So of course I'm going to get defensive whenever there is yet one more CW nerf thread on these forums.
I really don't see what the vision is that these complainers have for CW. I think that these people want CWs to be pure control bots that deal no damage in PVE, and to be free kills in PVP. That is what I have gathered anyway. So yes, naturally I object to that.
I have an idea, stop playing the victim and be constructive. Seriously, you're doing yourself no favors going "everyone just hates us, leave us alone!!".
If you think CW as a class has no issues that need fixing, you're in denial.
Another idea could be to change Shield into a X stack ability that after X attacks breaks. For example it goes from 80% - 60% - 40% - 20% - 0, when it hits 0 it breaks and needs to be recast after a cooldown.
See. this would be great. even give it a .25 second icd on layers per level in the skill. so at rank 4 it lasts for 4 seconds of constant damage. which is very strong. enough time to repel or dodge away and then kite / CC / rely on allies until shield is back up. it can still have a recharge after x seconds of no damage on it. and it would be strong in PVE still.
I have an idea, stop playing the victim and be constructive. Seriously, you're doing yourself no favors going "everyone just hates us, leave us alone!!".
If you think CW as a class has no issues that need fixing, you're in denial.
CWs have no issues that need fixing ahead of about 100 other more glaring issues.
Complain about Storm Spell all you want. If we actually do have pure control SS Oppressor CW's running around - and we are likely to have many more of them come Mod 6 - Storm Spell will be about the only source of damage that these CW's will have. So no, let's not nerf Storm Spell quite yet.
And Shield - once again it is the only source of additional DR that CW's have access to. And it takes up a valuable encounter slot. DCs and HRs get to be more tanky via passive feats. GFs and GWFs get more tanky via their class mechanic. So no I don't think it is an incredible problem that CWs get to be roughly as tanky as these other classes *TEMPORARILY* with an unstable encounter that gives CWs the same number of encounters as every other class, with their DR granted to them via feats or class mechnaics.
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
edited March 2015
U rly should test gwf tankiness in mod6 pointsman...
CWs have no issues that need fixing ahead of about 100 other more glaring issues.
Complain about Storm Spell all you want. If we actually do have pure control SS Oppressor CW's running around - and we are likely to have many more of them come Mod 6 - Storm Spell will be about the only source of damage that these CW's will have. So no, let's not nerf Storm Spell quite yet.
And Shield - once again it is the only source of additional DR that CW's have access to. And it takes up a valuable encounter slot. DCs and HRs get to be more tanky via passive feats. GFs and GWFs get more tanky via their class mechanic. So no I don't think it is an incredible problem that CWs get to be roughly as tanky as these other classes *TEMPORARILY* with an unstable encounter that gives CWs the same number of encounters as every other class, with their DR granted to them via feats or class mechnaics.
Much better response quality than the last one, however I disagree with you completely. Things such as Storm Spell are far too powerful, just like Tyrant, just like Diabolist, and it needs to be dealt with, the sooner the better. But I would love to hear what you think needs fixing more than a Cws ability to do 30-45% of their damage from ONE feature.
Next is the issue of the shield. The DR it gives is too high in my opinion and in the opinion of others in comparison to other classes, GWF and GF in particular, and i'll repeat the explanation.
A GWF needs determination which is gained from losing health most of the time, so it doesn't help vs one shots, and it needs you to be damaged, then it only lasts for a few seconds, where as the shield is a 25% minimum passive and has a 80% maximum potential.
A GF uses block, which is the same as a Cws dodge, not their class mechanic. Secondly, while using block they cannot use encounters or daily’s, a CW can still move at will and cast power they wish while being passively defended by the shield power.
Then after all that, the shield cannot be mitigated, and it is not “Temporary” at all. The shield from a CW gives a passive 25% minimum unless you break the shield for the damage power.
Now after all that, CW is a ranged class, with a dodge, while neither of those classes can dodge (Which mitigates 100% of the damage) and are melee classes. Seeing any issue yet?
1. Once again - for the pure controller CW that you envision, how do you expect this CW to deal any damage? CWs have to do dailies too you know. The pure controlling encounters - Entangling Force, Repel, Arcane Singularity - deal very little damage. These CWs have to deal damage via feats and class features because they are choosing NOT to deal damage via encounters, you know, like you all WANT us to. By wanting to nerf Storm Spell, you are indirectly wanting to nerf the pure controller CW that you all claim to want.
Demanding that CWs deal no AOE damage via encounters and deal no damage via passives is not an acceptable answer, sorry.
You are upset with CWs having 35% of their damage coming from Storm Spell? Well just wait until Mod 6 when you will see SS Oppressors with 60+% of their damage coming from Storm Spell, because that will be basically their only source of damage.
2. You are asking the wrong question. The question is not, "should every class have the ability to be as tanky as fighter classes?" The answer to this question is settled, and the answer is YES, for EVERY class. Every class has the ability, via class features, feats and encounters, to buff their DR, AC, defense and/or deflect. The question is, "how much should each class have to sacrifice in order to reach a high degree of tankiness?" And the answer to this question, as far as CW's are concerned, is that CW's have to sacrifice the most. CW's have zero - ZERO - feats or class features that grant defense, deflect, AC or DR. NONE. ZERO.
EVERY OTHER CLASS has the ability to increase their tankiness passively via feats and class features. But not CW. CW has to use an encounter slot to do it, via Shield. So while every other class has the ability to be tanky passively, and get to use 3 encounters, AND get to use their class mechanic, CW's get only 3 encounters total and essentially have to give up their class mechanic in order to place Shield in that fourth encounter spot.
No other class has to make that deep of a sacrifice in order to obtain that level of tankiness.
Plus you have misrepresented Shield. Not even with Rank 3 Shield in Spell Mastery can a CW achieve 80% DR. The DR from Shield is multiplicative with base DR, not additive. So a CW would have to have a base DR of 44% in order to achieve total 80% DR with Rank 3 Shield in Spell Mastery. And a CW with a base DR of over 40% is fiction, and especially so with the new stat curves in Mod 6.
A CW with a Rank 1 shield in a normal encounter spot, with a base DR of 20% (which is typical), would see the DR boosted all the way up to... 25%. (20% x 1.25) This is not "OMG" levels of DR.
So if you insist on having Shield nerfed, then I insist that CWs obtain a way to increase their DR or defense or AC passively either via feats or class features, so that CWs retain the ability, along with every other class, to become as tanky as fighter classes.
1. Once again - for the pure controller CW that you envision, how do you expect this CW to deal any damage? CWs have to do dailies too you know. The pure controlling encounters - Entangling Force, Repel, Arcane Singularity - deal very little damage. These CWs have to deal damage via feats and class features because they are choosing NOT to deal damage via encounters, you know, like you all WANT us to. By wanting to nerf Storm Spell, you are indirectly wanting to nerf the pure controller CW that you all claim to want.
Demanding that CWs deal no AOE damage via encounters and deal no damage via passives is not an acceptable answer, sorry.
I am going to say this as politely as humanly possible. You made all of that up, you are making a straw-man out of thin air, and you are really starting to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> me off.
Cite me where I said ANYTHING about wanting a “pure control wizard that deals no damage”. Do it.
I'll even make it easier for you, this is from one of my posts in a previous thread on the topic: “And finally, part of being a controller in D/D is AoE damage.”
Keep lying, and no one will take you seriously, get a grip.
You are upset with CWs having 35% of their damage coming from Storm Spell? Well just wait until Mod 6 when you will see SS Oppressors with 60+% of their damage coming from Storm Spell, because that will be basically their only source of damage.
Right, and 60% is perfectly balanced, no issue there what-so-ever.
This is pointless. Even when there is a huge glaring issue you do not care, and that's the issue ever time balance is discussed in a game where people become emotionally attached to their class/character/race, what have you, this garbage comes up. “Oh it's overpowered, but we need it”. Right then, give GWFs back their powers from mod 2-3. Give SW's the ability to gain AP while tyrant is up and keep it at 40%. Apparently balance means nothing.
1. Once again - for the pure controller CW that you envision, how do you expect this CW to deal any damage? CWs have to do dailies too you know. The pure controlling encounters - Entangling Force, Repel, Arcane Singularity - deal very little damage. These CWs have to deal damage via feats and class features because they are choosing NOT to deal damage via encounters, you know, like you all WANT us to. By wanting to nerf Storm Spell, you are indirectly wanting to nerf the pure controller CW that you all claim to want.
Demanding that CWs deal no AOE damage via encounters and deal no damage via passives is not an acceptable answer, sorry.
You are upset with CWs having 35% of their damage coming from Storm Spell? Well just wait until Mod 6 when you will see SS Oppressors with 60+% of their damage coming from Storm Spell, because that will be basically their only source of damage.
2. You are asking the wrong question. The question is not, "should every class have the ability to be as tanky as fighter classes?" The answer to this question is settled, and the answer is YES, for EVERY class. Every class has the ability, via class features, feats and encounters, to buff their DR, AC, defense and/or deflect. The question is, "how much should each class have to sacrifice in order to reach a high degree of tankiness?" And the answer to this question, as far as CW's are concerned, is that CW's have to sacrifice the most. CW's have zero - ZERO - feats or class features that grant defense, deflect, AC or DR. NONE. ZERO.
EVERY OTHER CLASS has the ability to increase their tankiness passively via feats and class features. But not CW. CW has to use an encounter slot to do it, via Shield. So while every other class has the ability to be tanky passively, and get to use 3 encounters, AND get to use their class mechanic, CW's get only 3 encounters total and essentially have to give up their class mechanic in order to place Shield in that fourth encounter spot.
No other class has to make that deep of a sacrifice in order to obtain that level of tankiness.
Plus you have misrepresented Shield. Not even with Rank 3 Shield in Spell Mastery can a CW achieve 80% DR. The DR from Shield is multiplicative with base DR, not additive. So a CW would have to have a base DR of 44% in order to achieve total 80% DR with Rank 3 Shield in Spell Mastery. And a CW with a base DR of over 40% is fiction, and especially so with the new stat curves in Mod 6.
A CW with a Rank 1 shield in a normal encounter spot, with a base DR of 20% (which is typical), would see the DR boosted all the way up to... 25%. (20% x 1.25) This is not "OMG" levels of DR.
So if you insist on having Shield nerfed, then I insist that CWs obtain a way to increase their DR or defense or AC passively either via feats or class features, so that CWs retain the ability, along with every other class, to become as tanky as fighter classes.
as a trickster, i need to waste an encounter slot to use my own tab mechanic and another one for itc.
your argument is much invalid.
we have then screenshots showing 1M hits reduced to 130k ... that is not 40% mitigation
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
edited March 2015
As a gwf i need to waste my encounter slot for sake of dealing any viable dmg (CA + mark thanks to Daring Shout)
Poor cw's they need to waste one of 4 (!) encounter slot to stack DR greater than gwf will ever have in mod6 w/ unstoppable.
Geez. We can go like that all day long. One thing i want is that SECONDARY striker will be acctualy worse at least for 1/3 than PRIMARY striker, both in they BiS dmg build. And maybe not being better tank that SECONDARY deferder, while being no defender at all.
Edit: and no, we cant buff other classes any firther, we dont want next power race.
I am going to say this as politely as humanly possible. You made all of that up, you are making a straw-man out of thin air, and you are really starting to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> me off.
Cite me where I said ANYTHING about wanting a “pure control wizard that deals no damage”. Do it.
I'll even make it easier for you, this is from one of my posts in a previous thread on the topic: “And finally, part of being a controller in D/D is AoE damage.”
Keep lying, and no one will take you seriously, get a grip.
Right, and 60% is perfectly balanced, no issue there what-so-ever.
This is pointless. Even when there is a huge glaring issue you do not care, and that's the issue ever time balance is discussed in a game where people become emotionally attached to their class/character/race, what have you, this garbage comes up. “Oh it's overpowered, but we need it”. Right then, give GWFs back their powers from mod 2-3. Give SW's the ability to gain AP while tyrant is up and keep it at 40%. Apparently balance means nothing.
If I had 1 AD for every time someone came to these forums whining "CWs are CONTROLLERS they aren't supposed to deal damage!!!!" then I would have 1,000 Tenser Disks by now.
So while you are good enough to recognize that CWs *are* in fact supposed to deal AOE damage in their role as controllers, most of your fellow CW haters are not. I get the distinct impression that most of the CW haters around here want CWs to be running around just grouping mobs together and casting Singularity all the time, and pretty much nothing else. For a CW which chooses to spec as pure control via Oppressor, their sources of damage are very limited. There is one feat that boosts damage based on chill (by a whopping 5%, and has an ICD, and was already nerfed once), and then there is Storm Spell. That's pretty much it. GWF Sentinels get the Intimidation feat that massively boosts their damage *from a passive feat*. Even GF Protectors have a feat that directly boosts their at-will damage. Oppressor CWs have nothing comparable.
So if you make life more difficult for Oppressor CWs who choose to go the control path, don't be surprised if very few CWs choose to play in a manner that is unnecessarily difficult. So you and your fellow CW haters will get fewer pure control CWs, not more.
And lastly, you have entered into this discussion with an arrogant, haughty attitude, dismissing all arguments even valid ones that contradict your premises, and are basically telling CWs that you know more about the class than we do and we should all just shut up and listen to your wise words. Well forgive us for having a different opinion, and for acting defensively when you enter this discussion with that type of attitude.
Wrong: that kind of CW should NOT do damage at all due they sacrificed it in favor of CONTROL. I do not get why is this that hard to understand. The same is applied to GWF-class from mod 4 onwards : If i want "damage" (notice quotes), i go destroyer. If i want "survival" (again, notice quotes), i go sent. If i want to waste my time, i go Instigator.
But even GWF Sentinels have passive features that let them deal damage while in their role as tank. The reason for this is so GWF Sentinels can serve as a tank in parties, but still can deal enough damage while soloing and doing dailies to get their jobs. done. So if CW Oppressors are supposed to be analogous to GWF Sentinels, where is the CW equivalent of Intimidation? Hmm?
And I don't think Instigator is a waste of time, personally, but that is just my view I suppose.
Wrong, again. The right questions are:
- "Should all non-fighter classes be able to get defenses?". Answer: yes, they should. (I think, we agree on this due seems like this is your first question with a bit of imagination over what you typed)
- "Should be all non-fighter classes be able to be as tanky as fighter classes?". Answer: Not even close. AND HERE, we agree on what you say: "how much they must sacrifice to get "tanky" ". And, basically, what CW-class sacrificed to get EVEN more tanky than fighter classes, is just 1 slot encounter (TAB) while both fighter classes must sacrifice POWER/DAMAGE to do so yet not as good as Shield...
If you don't think every class should be able to be as tanky as fighter classes, then please start demanding nerfs to DCs, HRs, SWs and everyone else who are able to boost their DR, defense, deflect, life steal, etc. to comparable levels of GFs and GWFs via passive feats and class features. I don't see you complaining though about immortal DC tanks or HRs with huge deflect chances. When you do then I'll start taking you seriously.
If you nerf shield but buff teleport and defense mechanics, it will be worse than before... cause you can slot another (buffed) single target encounter on TAB!
Conlusion: Even more defensive advantages mainly because of teleport and more damage/control through 4th offensive slottable encounter.
If Shield is nerfed without a comparable defensive boost somewhere else, then CW's CC becomes his only real defense. And since CC is short duration and can be deflected in PVP, that means CWs will be free kills again. Which is basically what you all want anyway.
And why is it that you think every class should get to boost their DR via passive features EXCEPT CW?
If you nerf passive sources of damage for CW, then CWs will naturally respond by choosing NOT to go to the pure control path (Oppressor), but instead to the AOE damage dealing paths, because very few people want to spend forever just doing dailies. You have to give pure control CWs some source of damage that makes it rewarding enough for them to choose the control path.
If you nerf Shield, which, let I remind you all, is the ONLY means by which CW has the ability to boost his DR, and has to essentially give up his class mechanic in order to use it, then it means CWs will be free kills again in PVP. Every class EXCEPT CW have passive abilities that can boost DR, so if you really want Shield nerfed, then grant CW one of these passive abilities that lets CWs boost their defenses somehow.
If Shield is nerfed without a comparable defensive boost somewhere else, then CW's CC becomes his only real defense. And since CC is short duration and can be deflected in PVP, that means CWs will be free kills again. Which is basically what you all want anyway.
And why is it that you think every class should get to boost their DR via passive features EXCEPT CW?
Since they are so great, how about we trade some of those passives from other classes for a non tab version shield? Quite a few of those oh so tanky DCs would gladly trade feated foresight at 11% mitigable resistance for shield and any semi useful T2 feat. Even if it means giving up an encounter spot for waht was a class feature.. Even if you consider shield vital for CWs viability it's far from true to say that other classes have something equally good.
Personally I think part of the issue here is umitigable damage being mitigated by unmitigable resistance, it's a vicious cycle that should be done away with. This would bring shield enough in line with other abilities to make this a non issue.
tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
The good news (for me) is that TR players are actually having a good time. No one complain about us nowadays.
The only problem is that it is because they are crying after the big bad CW.
Please accept my sincere condolence, guys.
It would be easier if people were able to listen instead of telling you that they have a better understanding than you about the class that you play, while they don't own a character with this class.
All class in this game would require a rework, but they never try to think on global balance, they just ask for nerf without realizing where it will conduce us.
Anyway, this topic is really useful, I've learned plenty of things about a class I've never played at HL.
Keep up the constructive feedback, and don't let the trolls beat you down.;)
Comments
Be so much easier to deal with if when it broke, it like.. Actually broke. and when broken it no longer provides DR.Then there was an actual downtime on shield. It'd still do its job of blocking high damage burst openings , and adding some survivability, but it would be able to be taken down and cause cw's to have to play more like a cloth wearing wizard and like, Not face-tank anything they feel like.
I also get that control wizards are a Control Primary class (Not a Striker Primary), and require having a lot of CC (Thus should not double or triple the dps of Primary Strikers as shown by pretty much every combatlog / video) , But its frustrating when I play my GWF or TR and get knocked back off the edge's of platforms / maps by their pushes, sometimes even when unstoppable or in a dodgeroll/ITC, This push feels WAY too far sometimes. I know that CW have it as a "gap-creator" which makes sense given what I said above about playing like an actual cloth wearing wizard, But when CC-immune, you should be just that. (same with Cleric push, But I believe that was fixed). I'm not saying here to nerf the control powers, I'm just saying they should respect immunity.
8 Days till launch. We will see what happens.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
this^^^^ becks....
i note that sometimes my shield is gone. and no i didnt pop it.. (im talking about pvp here, thats where ive noticed it)
If Soulforged procs, the shield vanishes without popping.
To answer your question
- Most people on this forum seem to play only 1 class at a time from what I can tell, so if you ask for a nerf/buff on X class, they will take it emotionally instead of logically. They have alot invested in that one character/class, therefore they react the way they do.
- People have posted critism with facts/math to back up their position such as “Ayroux”. The problem is people find it easier, including the OP, to ignore such posts and pick apart weaker posts.
- People thinking a power/mechanic is too powerful will turn a thread into a nerf/debate thread, that's just natural.
The fact we even need to compare the damage resistance of a CW to a tank class should raise enough red flags.
Also, for those argueing against GWFs, the shield is up 24/7 as a 25% minimum. A GWF needs to build determination usually by taking large amounts of damage to pop Unstopable which is then up for a few seconds, there is a huge difference, and then they're Gfs who cannot use encounters/dailys while blocking. Not only that, but a CW shield can stop a one shot, a GWF cannot survive a one shot.
Go on then, how does a SW break free of CC? How about a HR? DC? GF? Pally?
Also, the CW ignores 67% of tenacity last time I checked, and it still seems to do fine in PvP when I have a match.
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Now, what would be a nice solution would be something like black ice damage, which they're sadly removing. What could happen is a simple “physical” and “magical” damage and damage resistance to start things off and allow more varied roles.
For example, a CW would be better at resisting magical attacks than a GWF, and a GWF would be better at resisting physical attacks than a CW.
Another idea could be to change Shield into a X stack ability that after X attacks breaks. For example it goes from 80% - 60% - 40% - 20% - 0, when it hits 0 it breaks and needs to be recast after a cooldown.
Back in the Mod 0/Mod 1 days when it took a strong 3xCW party to finish CN, players demanded CW nerfs because it was "unfair" that CWs "got rich" off of CN. Never mind that at the time, that dungeon wasn't even realistically doable by less than 3xCWs.
When CWs were pure control singbots, players demanded CW nerfs because it took so many CWs to control the adds, so other players were "locked out" of parties. When CWs focused on AOE damage, players demanded CW nerfs because "control doesn't mean damage dealer" (which is a lie, but whatevs, it didn't stop the nerf calls).
When the Oppressor path finally got a much-deserved buff in Mod 4 to make that path viable for, you know, *control*, the PVP QQ was so overwhelming that it was nerfed again within 1 week, and now Oppressor is back to useless again.
When CWs focus on control, players demand nerfs. When CWs focus on damage, players demand nerfs. When CWS have one - ONE - tool that gives them extra DR in PVP against the overbuffed single-target striker class, players demand nerfs.
No matter what CWs say or do, it is never enough. So of course I'm going to get defensive whenever there is yet one more CW nerf thread on these forums.
I really don't see what the vision is that these complainers have for CW. I think that these people want CWs to be pure control bots that deal no damage in PVE, and to be free kills in PVP. That is what I have gathered anyway. So yes, naturally I object to that.
I have an idea, stop playing the victim and be constructive. Seriously, you're doing yourself no favors going "everyone just hates us, leave us alone!!".
If you think CW as a class has no issues that need fixing, you're in denial.
See. this would be great. even give it a .25 second icd on layers per level in the skill. so at rank 4 it lasts for 4 seconds of constant damage. which is very strong. enough time to repel or dodge away and then kite / CC / rely on allies until shield is back up. it can still have a recharge after x seconds of no damage on it. and it would be strong in PVE still.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
CWs have no issues that need fixing ahead of about 100 other more glaring issues.
Complain about Storm Spell all you want. If we actually do have pure control SS Oppressor CW's running around - and we are likely to have many more of them come Mod 6 - Storm Spell will be about the only source of damage that these CW's will have. So no, let's not nerf Storm Spell quite yet.
And Shield - once again it is the only source of additional DR that CW's have access to. And it takes up a valuable encounter slot. DCs and HRs get to be more tanky via passive feats. GFs and GWFs get more tanky via their class mechanic. So no I don't think it is an incredible problem that CWs get to be roughly as tanky as these other classes *TEMPORARILY* with an unstable encounter that gives CWs the same number of encounters as every other class, with their DR granted to them via feats or class mechnaics.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
Much better response quality than the last one, however I disagree with you completely. Things such as Storm Spell are far too powerful, just like Tyrant, just like Diabolist, and it needs to be dealt with, the sooner the better. But I would love to hear what you think needs fixing more than a Cws ability to do 30-45% of their damage from ONE feature.
Next is the issue of the shield. The DR it gives is too high in my opinion and in the opinion of others in comparison to other classes, GWF and GF in particular, and i'll repeat the explanation.
A GWF needs determination which is gained from losing health most of the time, so it doesn't help vs one shots, and it needs you to be damaged, then it only lasts for a few seconds, where as the shield is a 25% minimum passive and has a 80% maximum potential.
A GF uses block, which is the same as a Cws dodge, not their class mechanic. Secondly, while using block they cannot use encounters or daily’s, a CW can still move at will and cast power they wish while being passively defended by the shield power.
Then after all that, the shield cannot be mitigated, and it is not “Temporary” at all. The shield from a CW gives a passive 25% minimum unless you break the shield for the damage power.
Now after all that, CW is a ranged class, with a dodge, while neither of those classes can dodge (Which mitigates 100% of the damage) and are melee classes. Seeing any issue yet?
Demanding that CWs deal no AOE damage via encounters and deal no damage via passives is not an acceptable answer, sorry.
You are upset with CWs having 35% of their damage coming from Storm Spell? Well just wait until Mod 6 when you will see SS Oppressors with 60+% of their damage coming from Storm Spell, because that will be basically their only source of damage.
2. You are asking the wrong question. The question is not, "should every class have the ability to be as tanky as fighter classes?" The answer to this question is settled, and the answer is YES, for EVERY class. Every class has the ability, via class features, feats and encounters, to buff their DR, AC, defense and/or deflect. The question is, "how much should each class have to sacrifice in order to reach a high degree of tankiness?" And the answer to this question, as far as CW's are concerned, is that CW's have to sacrifice the most. CW's have zero - ZERO - feats or class features that grant defense, deflect, AC or DR. NONE. ZERO.
EVERY OTHER CLASS has the ability to increase their tankiness passively via feats and class features. But not CW. CW has to use an encounter slot to do it, via Shield. So while every other class has the ability to be tanky passively, and get to use 3 encounters, AND get to use their class mechanic, CW's get only 3 encounters total and essentially have to give up their class mechanic in order to place Shield in that fourth encounter spot.
No other class has to make that deep of a sacrifice in order to obtain that level of tankiness.
Plus you have misrepresented Shield. Not even with Rank 3 Shield in Spell Mastery can a CW achieve 80% DR. The DR from Shield is multiplicative with base DR, not additive. So a CW would have to have a base DR of 44% in order to achieve total 80% DR with Rank 3 Shield in Spell Mastery. And a CW with a base DR of over 40% is fiction, and especially so with the new stat curves in Mod 6.
A CW with a Rank 1 shield in a normal encounter spot, with a base DR of 20% (which is typical), would see the DR boosted all the way up to... 25%. (20% x 1.25) This is not "OMG" levels of DR.
So if you insist on having Shield nerfed, then I insist that CWs obtain a way to increase their DR or defense or AC passively either via feats or class features, so that CWs retain the ability, along with every other class, to become as tanky as fighter classes.
I am going to say this as politely as humanly possible. You made all of that up, you are making a straw-man out of thin air, and you are really starting to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> me off.
Cite me where I said ANYTHING about wanting a “pure control wizard that deals no damage”. Do it.
I'll even make it easier for you, this is from one of my posts in a previous thread on the topic: “And finally, part of being a controller in D/D is AoE damage.”
Keep lying, and no one will take you seriously, get a grip.
Right, and 60% is perfectly balanced, no issue there what-so-ever.
This is pointless. Even when there is a huge glaring issue you do not care, and that's the issue ever time balance is discussed in a game where people become emotionally attached to their class/character/race, what have you, this garbage comes up. “Oh it's overpowered, but we need it”. Right then, give GWFs back their powers from mod 2-3. Give SW's the ability to gain AP while tyrant is up and keep it at 40%. Apparently balance means nothing.
your argument is much invalid.
we have then screenshots showing 1M hits reduced to 130k ... that is not 40% mitigation
Poor cw's they need to waste one of 4 (!) encounter slot to stack DR greater than gwf will ever have in mod6 w/ unstoppable.
Geez. We can go like that all day long. One thing i want is that SECONDARY striker will be acctualy worse at least for 1/3 than PRIMARY striker, both in they BiS dmg build. And maybe not being better tank that SECONDARY deferder, while being no defender at all.
Edit: and no, we cant buff other classes any firther, we dont want next power race.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
it has been 50% from module 4 and 5 http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?692711-Official-Feedback-Thread-Control-Wizard-Changes&p=8433221#post8433221
just wanna know if its been nerfed
thank you
If I had 1 AD for every time someone came to these forums whining "CWs are CONTROLLERS they aren't supposed to deal damage!!!!" then I would have 1,000 Tenser Disks by now.
So while you are good enough to recognize that CWs *are* in fact supposed to deal AOE damage in their role as controllers, most of your fellow CW haters are not. I get the distinct impression that most of the CW haters around here want CWs to be running around just grouping mobs together and casting Singularity all the time, and pretty much nothing else. For a CW which chooses to spec as pure control via Oppressor, their sources of damage are very limited. There is one feat that boosts damage based on chill (by a whopping 5%, and has an ICD, and was already nerfed once), and then there is Storm Spell. That's pretty much it. GWF Sentinels get the Intimidation feat that massively boosts their damage *from a passive feat*. Even GF Protectors have a feat that directly boosts their at-will damage. Oppressor CWs have nothing comparable.
So if you make life more difficult for Oppressor CWs who choose to go the control path, don't be surprised if very few CWs choose to play in a manner that is unnecessarily difficult. So you and your fellow CW haters will get fewer pure control CWs, not more.
And lastly, you have entered into this discussion with an arrogant, haughty attitude, dismissing all arguments even valid ones that contradict your premises, and are basically telling CWs that you know more about the class than we do and we should all just shut up and listen to your wise words. Well forgive us for having a different opinion, and for acting defensively when you enter this discussion with that type of attitude.
But even GWF Sentinels have passive features that let them deal damage while in their role as tank. The reason for this is so GWF Sentinels can serve as a tank in parties, but still can deal enough damage while soloing and doing dailies to get their jobs. done. So if CW Oppressors are supposed to be analogous to GWF Sentinels, where is the CW equivalent of Intimidation? Hmm?
And I don't think Instigator is a waste of time, personally, but that is just my view I suppose.
If you don't think every class should be able to be as tanky as fighter classes, then please start demanding nerfs to DCs, HRs, SWs and everyone else who are able to boost their DR, defense, deflect, life steal, etc. to comparable levels of GFs and GWFs via passive feats and class features. I don't see you complaining though about immortal DC tanks or HRs with huge deflect chances. When you do then I'll start taking you seriously.
If Shield is nerfed without a comparable defensive boost somewhere else, then CW's CC becomes his only real defense. And since CC is short duration and can be deflected in PVP, that means CWs will be free kills again. Which is basically what you all want anyway.
And why is it that you think every class should get to boost their DR via passive features EXCEPT CW?
If you nerf passive sources of damage for CW, then CWs will naturally respond by choosing NOT to go to the pure control path (Oppressor), but instead to the AOE damage dealing paths, because very few people want to spend forever just doing dailies. You have to give pure control CWs some source of damage that makes it rewarding enough for them to choose the control path.
If you nerf Shield, which, let I remind you all, is the ONLY means by which CW has the ability to boost his DR, and has to essentially give up his class mechanic in order to use it, then it means CWs will be free kills again in PVP. Every class EXCEPT CW have passive abilities that can boost DR, so if you really want Shield nerfed, then grant CW one of these passive abilities that lets CWs boost their defenses somehow.
Since they are so great, how about we trade some of those passives from other classes for a non tab version shield? Quite a few of those oh so tanky DCs would gladly trade feated foresight at 11% mitigable resistance for shield and any semi useful T2 feat. Even if it means giving up an encounter spot for waht was a class feature.. Even if you consider shield vital for CWs viability it's far from true to say that other classes have something equally good.
Personally I think part of the issue here is umitigable damage being mitigated by unmitigable resistance, it's a vicious cycle that should be done away with. This would bring shield enough in line with other abilities to make this a non issue.
The only problem is that it is because they are crying after the big bad CW.
Please accept my sincere condolence, guys.
It would be easier if people were able to listen instead of telling you that they have a better understanding than you about the class that you play, while they don't own a character with this class.
All class in this game would require a rework, but they never try to think on global balance, they just ask for nerf without realizing where it will conduce us.
Anyway, this topic is really useful, I've learned plenty of things about a class I've never played at HL.
Keep up the constructive feedback, and don't let the trolls beat you down.;)