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The new artifact changes actually BENEFIT players. Here's why:
ironzerg79
Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
Here's my question. You have the choice of two items below. Which do you chose?
Be honest:
Option A or Option B?
Now the reveal (and this is obvious to anyone who's been on test).
This is what happened when I made my new Artifact Weapon, and fed my level 60 Legendary Orb into it. The result? I got a better weapon. Even without the extra gem slot, it's a far superior weapon.
That's right. It's an upgrade in every sense of the word. If you had given me a choice of trading my Legendary Orb in for the other Epic Orb, I would have taken it in a heart beat.
And what I've viewing as a bonus is this. I can still (if I'm crazy enough) invest more RP into the new orb to make it even better:
Granted, refining my "sacred" Legendary weapon only got me 40% to the new Legendary tier. But if I had the discipline to wait until a 2x RP Weekend, that will get me 80% there, and "only" about 900k RP to the new Legendary status. Which ain't bad considering the enormous upgrade being presented to me.
So after looking at things side by side like that, I'm perfectly fine with the changes. Most players should actually see the RP they invested in their current stock of weapons stretched farther than in their current situation.
Nobody is moving backwards. Nothing is being taken away.
It's fine. In fact, players are going to get a boost by these changes.
Be honest:
Option A or Option B?
Now the reveal (and this is obvious to anyone who's been on test).
This is what happened when I made my new Artifact Weapon, and fed my level 60 Legendary Orb into it. The result? I got a better weapon. Even without the extra gem slot, it's a far superior weapon.
That's right. It's an upgrade in every sense of the word. If you had given me a choice of trading my Legendary Orb in for the other Epic Orb, I would have taken it in a heart beat.
And what I've viewing as a bonus is this. I can still (if I'm crazy enough) invest more RP into the new orb to make it even better:
Granted, refining my "sacred" Legendary weapon only got me 40% to the new Legendary tier. But if I had the discipline to wait until a 2x RP Weekend, that will get me 80% there, and "only" about 900k RP to the new Legendary status. Which ain't bad considering the enormous upgrade being presented to me.
So after looking at things side by side like that, I'm perfectly fine with the changes. Most players should actually see the RP they invested in their current stock of weapons stretched farther than in their current situation.
Nobody is moving backwards. Nothing is being taken away.
It's fine. In fact, players are going to get a boost by these changes.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
You dare to bring LOGIC, and well thought out facts, to the Preview Shard? What kind of monster are you!?!?
BURN THE WITCH!!!
:cool:
PS - I agree with eveverything you said. There is way to much Chicken Little "The Sky is Falling" going around, so thanks for this dose of reality!
Which I'm not understanding. Why are people complaining that their Artifact Equipment is going to essentially be upgraded in Module 6?
It's not immediately obvious, and someone might initially think they're getting screwed over, when in fact they're being given MORE.
That's all I'm trying to point out here.
Since I haven't seen any plan to change the inclusion requirements for Tiamat, I'm pretty annoyed at this expansion tending toward "hey lets do that SUPER FUN thing again, cause really.. it wasn't so annoying the first time that I gave up".
I think you are missing the pain points.
To clarify, everyone looks forward to an upgrade, be it miniscule or major.
An upgrade IS an upgrade.
The community hates the refining model.
Would you like to do a poll and try see?
Let's look at the model now and perhaps people can judge better. (figures quoted are rough for easier understanding)
Scenario now:
You have Artifact weapon A (needs 4million rp to fully upgrade. invested 4million rp)
Mod6 introduces Artifact weapon A+ (needs 10million rp to fully upgrade. can feed A+ with A and get 1.6million, 2.4million LOST)
NOW, multiply this by 7 artifact slots. (2.4mil x 7 = 16.8million <--- this is 16,800,000 rp LOST)
This figure will be exponential everytime there're new introductions since new items will always require more rp.
A+ coming mod, A++ in future, A+++ next year?
You keep losing and lose more.
2x refinement weekend?
Oh com'on, you serious? How often do we see this? A quarter of the year?
The recent one is an obvious move to expend and deplete resources so that people can spend MORE when the new artifacts are introduced on 17th.
Preview testers who bleeped out the news, the smart ones mostly decided there's no point and dabbled a bit just on enchantments and prepped a bit for the mythical artifacts.
Back on track, there's no reason why there should be a loss in rp investment since effort and time is being put in to see the numbers.
Hypothetically, if the situation had been:
- A invested with 4mil
- A+ needs 10mil
- Player works hard and tops off with another 6mil after feeding A into A+
Sounds fair? You bet! And half the complaints on this forums wouldn't have surfaced at all.
The lost shouldn't even be warranted as, in order to obtain 'upgrades', people will still need to invest more to get the new statuses.
Got the gist of it now?
Yes there are some that leveled their artifacts up when it was not a double rp weekend, but those people also are the ones that had legendaries before anyone else and had months of an advantage over other people.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
I just do not want to run it again to get the new off-hand for my six "main" characters. I don't.
ok so you had artifact with 3 slots open.
assuming you got your main hand on first try.
with offhand invested in opening right power in it. and capping 2nd bonus to at least 350.
B.
ok I see. now you close 3rd slot. Stat wise it is still better. Hope you got it on first try right?
You lost offhand if you refined it into new. You will need to have grind for 15 more linus to get it first. and invest in opening right stat again.
See what is the problem?
People don't hate new artifact for better stats. People hate work they did to get those, to get that orange achievement, all thoose extra things they did to get it, being nerfed.
If they'd waited until mod 7 to trot out lvl 70 artifact gear, I'd be 100% fine with it. It's inevitable that the current artifact gear would be trumped one day, but for this mod it feels like it's too soon and makes what I've invested in my artifact gear feel like a bit of a waste.
But the reason I'd be fine with it in mod 7 is that I think the level 60 stuff's good enough for the new mod 6 content, which might make my above complaining pointless.
EDIT: yet the artifact gear are still mainly AD sinks, so at it's core them dumping new AD sinks on us like this and this soon is always going to have a stench to it.
CW: Rodrant Turnbul
TR: Rodran
DC: Rodrat
GWF: ROARdrant TurnBRAWL
Other GWF: Shieldrant
HR: Bowdrant
SW: Wardrant Turnlock (my main!)
OP: Paladrant (on Preview!)
1) A lot of resources are wasted and had little benefit.
2) Even though it's an upgrade it doesn't change the fact that it causes a huge gap in power. If you got yourself broke getting legendaries, then it's going to be very hard to get there again and hence you will be behind those that do decided to pay or managed to hoard a lot of cheap stones, or ones that bot themselves. Yes it's better, but to reach epic is like 2 stacks of lesser res stones therefore it was wasted effort in getting legendaries. Legendaries are meant to be long term, and when they're not what's the point in trying when you can't legitimately get there before something better comes along?
Which would I prefer, drops like CN that gave BiS drops with no refining, or this monstrosity of refining that gives us more stats? The drops like CN because you have to work for it and it doesn't cause massive balance issues because there's such a huge gap in player effectiveness which has a massive effect in pvp and makes pve a joke because it is balanced so that the ones who can't spend hundreds on their gear can complete it.
Your argument is similar to they way people argue for and against an ad refining cap rise. Sure you may get a little more ad when over the cap, but the value would be deflated by those that often can earn more. It's not as simple as, "oh it's better".
People don't like the enchantment increases either, but their enchantments still give the same stats. No effort was lost there. Legendaries are a ridiculous investment, but a wasted one that's only purpose is to beat people up in pvp. It was bad enough in the first place without denying your average player to make meaningful progress on what could be a permanent basis.
If you want an easy mode casual game (since they decided to go on that side rather than make it challenging and more of a pain for lesser geared toons), then it's somewhat ok if you don't pvp. If you want to take this game at least a tiny bit seriously, then the game hugely falls short. That's my problem.
Mostly the complaints about the new gear are just proxies for larger complaints, about the refining system generally, about having to do Tiamat 15 more times, about the lvl 61-70 content generally, or whatever.
It is like this. Suppose you buy a brand new car for $10,000. Then, a few years go by and you want to trade in your car for a newer, shinier car. The car dealer says "well you can buy this new car also for $10,000, and I will even give you $8,000 in trade-in towards the purchase of the new car, so you only have to spend $2,000 to get the new model". That's a pretty good deal, right?
Maybe the system should have been designed to be usable each day instead of a weekend every few months. On the other hand, regular artifacts get more than 100% return rate. The whole defence is pretty much this:
Lockboxes are a good investment because there was a time when people got inferno nightmares multiple times a second, we just need to wait for a repeat.
The base rate is 40%. No need to pretend it's anything else. That's what the system is designed at. If it was always 80% during or before 2x rp then maybe I'd side a little closer to the it's not so bad, but it's not. 80% would still be pushing it though. Likewise if they system was based on something like xp instead of rp, I could be more accepting. As it is,, I can't say that it's friendly in any way. Also 80% is close to the cost of a perfect enchantment lost if we go ah prices. Personally I'm surprised you'd still defend it after how much time it took you to get your legendary. A long term system doesn't work if you're only making them short term...
Better yet, how about a system that isn't heavily monetised like it used to be. People have less issues when gear is obsolete that way. Though there's still issues when for example you make a profession useless after a module.
waiting a x2 event you dont even need 1m more rp, just 500k which i can do in a week or so. its not even a problem.
its the trend to release things for the sake of releasing them while forcing again players to rng <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and tiamat again.
Why? That's not even reasonable. It is the same concept as depreciation. You would not buy a new car for $10,000, use it for a while, then attempt to sell it and demand that you get $10,000 back? No one will buy a used car for the same price as a new car.
I agree that they should have waited maybe 1 more mod before releasing new replacement artifact gear. But whenever it was released - and we all KNEW that it was going to be released, at some point in the future - we would have seen the exact same complaints here on the forums.
I think at this point the devs must think that they can do whatever they want with refining and artifact gear, because they must think that we the players will complain no matter what they do.
Enchantments don't degrade, artifacts at a high level only degrade slightly when it's not 2x rp. Both of those things are long term just like artifact equipment should be. The reason the devs do it is because they think they can get away with it (well not the devs since moetisation isn't their area but still). People complain because the system has been designed poorly. It's the people who accept it that make these trends continue.
The point is, if you do nothing but refine your existing Level 60 artifact mainhand into the new Level 70 artifact mainhand, you will get a better mainhand. No additional work required.
If you wanted to stop right there and never put any more RP into the Level 70 mainhand, you would still have a better mainhand.
Suppose you buy a new car for $10,000. You use it for a while and then you want to trade it in to get a better car. The car salesman says: I will take your existing car, and give you a brand new car that is BETTER than your current car, and you don't have to invest any additional money into it at all. If you WANT to put more money into it to get some extra features, like a better engine, you CAN but you don't have to.
Power is relative.
If you would like to have a point you'd have to proof that the current Main relative to the endgame is worse than the new purple relative to the new endgame. I know what you wanna say, but I don't like absolute comparisons in any shape or form. They are misleading at best.
It's like saying that the fact that green items at lvl61 are better than purple stuff at 60 does benefit players as well because these items are dropping all over the place and are really easy to obtain. But relative to the stuff we own now they are still <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
I personally think feeding a BiS weapon into the new one on a x2 weekend and then invest another two stacks of Lesser Resonance Stones to get BiS again is reasonable though. Plus it's an understated bonus that the new Artifact gear does not need more RPs like the new Artifacts and Enchants levels.
But situations where gear is outdated within one module absolutely have to be avoided in the future even if there's a level cap increase. An incremental approach might have been better. They introduced Enchants and Artifact (gear) one after another. They deliver all the new BiS Artifact 70 gear right now, so what's in stock for future modules?
Yeah? And what about Stat increase? Class feat bonus? The enchant slots you lose? Slipped your mind?
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
Got up this morning to check the thread, and that's the only response I see. It's more hyperbole and deflection.
The reason I posted this comparison is because there's AT LEAST 6 threads within the first two pages of this forum complaining about how players are getting shafted on the new equipment, which isn't true.
Exactly!
When Module 6 launches, if you're sick of refining and sick of upgrading your Artifact Equipment, all you need to do is get the new stuff, drop your old stuff into it and you have BETTER STUFF. Nothing is wasted and nothing is really obsolete.
I know people aren't big fans of the RP system, but I also think whats driving some of the complaints is that the new module is going to make them "waste" RP or make their current stuff "obsolete", and it's not.
And everyone here should know I'm a critic of the current system, and I've proposed in a few places a new system I think would be a lot more fun for players. But what's happening with the new Artifact Equipment and the Refinement system are two related, but separate issues.
But let's also keep these complaints grounded in facts.
And the fact is that every single player in Module 6 is going to have the opportunity to earn a substantial upgrade to all their Artifact Equipment relatively easily.
It's better on the mainhand. You'll have a single weapon that has the at-will features of ALL the previous Artifact Weapons. If you want to change your build, or a patch buffs or nerfs a certain at-will, your Legendary weapon that you worked so hard for isn't ruined. You just simply pay a small AD cost to switch the weapon power to a new at-will.
I've also had some friends lament that they're not as powerful as they want to be in PvE/PvP because their Artifact Weapon power is for the "wrong" at-will. These new Artifact Weapons solve that problem. If you're PvPing, you can swap in the best PvP power. If you're PvEing, you can swap in the best PvE power.
And finally...and this is a big one. It looks like the power is the same whether it's green or legendary, which closes a big, big gap between players.
So again, no matter which way you slice it, it's a huge upgrade for everyone.
If all artifacts can crit when fed into another artifact, then 80% return (on next 2x RP event) + chance to crit.
If you crit, then, correct me if I'm wrong, you will get more than 100% return.
My plan is to level professions to 25 in order to craft level 70 fomorian or Fallen dragon weapons.
By the time the next 2xRP event starts, I will be level 70 and should have obtained the new Elemental artifact gear and be ready to refine it.
I'm sorry, but as I've pointed out, this is simply not correct. The stuff you get is worse relative to the new content. Stop using absolute numbers, they are faulty.
This might actually be a good approach. The profession weapons are relatively cheap and a good temporary replacement.