This is a really big post I invested alot of time writing and thinking about, it works with things coming with m6 and things that are hanging from m4 and m5. This whole post is a feedback that's exisiting as a seperate thread on the forums right now, if you wish to discuss what I posted here, do so in my other thread please. It concerns everything wrong and bad about warlocks and improvement potential for mod 6 to make the class more balanced. This feedback is coming from a high GS warlock player who's played this class since it was out, the release of the warlock class was the reason I started playing Neverwinter in early mod 4. Anyways, let's get down to it!
All things PvE
Let's be blunt, in live, our dps and survival for PvE is trough the roof. Any good warlock player with DC sigil will put out massive amounts of damage in every dungeon he does, even if he's not the DPS tree. So let's analyze what makes us good in PvE, and I will tackle them and other issues in order:
-DoTs / Fury Capstone
-Acursed diabolist set bonus/ glyphs
-Tyranical threat (Cleric artifact)
-Life Steal
-Class Features compared to other classes
-Damnation tree
Curse mechanics All right, so one of the improvements I can see to the core mechanics of the class itself is the 'curse consume' aspect. I suggest to replace it with 'Curse Synergy'. For example, a SW gets 20% bonus damage when damaging cursed opponents, but alot of powers cannot benefit from this because casting them consumes the curse. So if you curse your target then cast dreadtheft, you will lose your curse damage bonus. This is also true for the fury capstone, powers that consume the curse requires you to recast a curse more often than should be necessary simply to benefit from your capstone, and powers that are channel-type like dreadtheft you simply cannot cancel to recurse because you lose the power by the same time. Some of you experienced warlocks probably know by now that using Warlock's bargain puts a curse on the target which is not consumed by powers, so if you warlock's bargain + curse + dreadtheft you still get your curse damage bonus and fury capstone. I don't think it should be this way, I think improving the mechanic to 'if the target is cursed when casting - gain x benefits' aka curse synergy and not remove the curse from the target would avoid curse spamming and problems like not being able to benefit from curse damage bonus when using curse consume channel powers like dreadtheft.
Accursed diabolist set bonus/Glyphs. This was a huge thing in our DPS arsenal, the reason is many of the warlock powers are Damage over Time effects and each 'tick' of those powers count as an encounter power of it's own. As a rule of thumb the set bonus is 3% hp(max 2k) for every encounter cast. Now that would be an ordinary(I mean not OP) set if not for the fact that each tick of DoT powers count for an encounter power of their own. Let me just mention that dreadtheft ticks 24 total times (4/sec) and if you're using this set bonus for each dreadtheft cast you stack 24x the damage bonus. On a high HP monster like tiamat your dreadtheft will literally proc 48k damage before debuffs and buffs every time you cast dreadtheft, and it goes higher if you use more DoT powers like Warlock's bargain etc. Arguably this can be a good or a bad thing depending on the viewer, it's a big factor in why warlocks are so high in the damage chart (along with tyranical threat). a Typical dreadtheft can do 15k damage on it's own + 40k per target you hit consistently with it, damage racks up really fast. This is why removing our set bonus will hurt the class really badly, because it depends on it to perform, and when you compare this class to others for balance, people factor in this enormous DPS boost. If you take the same warlock but not using this armor bonus it will perform significantly less, making armor choice practicly non existant, because everyone will wear this over draconic or even black ice for PvE. The same concept applies to glyphs even if I didn't really cover it up.While there is no immediate improvement for this situation, when making changes to the warlock class you must take this factor into account. Removing the set bonus would probably hurt the class more than it should be while making every other armor set bonus as good as this one is probably not the answer. Without changing the underlying mechanics of multi encounter procs there's little we can do about this specific matter right now. And if it was indeed changed, then we would need something to compensate for the loss otherwise the class will lose alot of it's performance in comparison to other classes
Tyranical Threat This power is the only daily any warlock will ever use in PvE. It's ridiculously powerful, it's completely out of line with every other daily in the game except opressive force and a couple oddballs. While having a powerful daily is well and all that, the difference between us warlocks and wizards is we're very dependant on these features to score that DPS. What does that mean in practical terms? To be a good warlock you need to SPAM Tyranical threat as much as humanly possible in every good encounter. Remove that and the set bonus mentionned above(or glyphs + encounter multi ticks) and the class becomes very mediocre at DPS. And that's bad because the class doesn't do much other than DPS. Unlike CWs, if you nerf their damage they still got their CC to fall back on, roll a opressor and CC everything to death. Nerf the damage of a warlock and you have... nothing, life steal which is the core mechanic for defence on a SW is dependant on damage, even temptation tree's healing is dependant on damage. A warlock that doesn't deal damage is a weight in the group that's got no uses. So it is to be expected of a class whose primary role is DPS that it would deal alot of it. It would be cool to tone down Tyranical threat only if it was replaced by something else, not only would that add diversity from the old TT spamming but it would also solve the gap between this daily and other dailies available. Another really important point is that applying curses with tyranical threat is a slow animation, it can take 3 to 5 seconds simply applying curses to ennemies, effectively cutting down the time by 1/4 of its duration, being 20s currently, and that's if your targets don't die and you have to recast your curses again then you pretty much wasted your daily power. I think a way to solve this problem would be that casting curses with tyranical threat active be sped up by the same amount of time it takes to cast normal curses(instantaneous) and increase it's total duration but lower it's damage link %. The daily power would be easier to use and it would also be easier to re link new targets with it after initial targets died. Because of the fact players do not generate AP while using Tyranical threat it would not threaten balance to increase it's duration and speeding up animation for a lower damage link trade off.
Life Steal Now this issue has been created with the changes to life steal with mod 6. When we look at it, every class has means of defending themselves. For example, rangers use roots and dodges as defence, CWs have control powers, GFs block and GWFs determination among others, ETC. What about SW? Our main defence is shift and life steal. The thing with life steal is every class can have it, not just warlock. While only wizards have real control powers, everyone has life steal, including said wizards. That is why I feel like life steal is a seperate case when we look at warlocks, because it is at the core of our class defensive mechanism, unlike other classes. If you removed Life steal from the game completely, Wizards would still have control powers, GFs would still block, while we would only have shift left. By putting our main defense mechanics as a 'chance' to happen the problem is that we cannot rely on our main defence system. It's the same as saying to a wizard you control powers have a 15% chance of actually working, you can stack up control bonus and it increases your chance to succeed at controlling powers. What if he's low HP and casts that power to disable mobs and save time until that cleric hits him with a heal and it so turns out that he rolled the wrong numbers and he's left defenceless because his control powers didn't work. Nobody wants that right?This is how warlocks feel about life steal chance. Because it's at the core of our defense system, there's two ways things should go- 1. make adjusments to the old system to make it reliable again for warlocks at a lower rate % if necessary. 2- Give a new defensive mechanism to the class, whatever that might be. One cannot make the main defensive aspect of a class work only in x% of situations, it hurts the class really badly, in this case warlock. A GF doesn't block x% of attacks, a GWF doesn't have a random proc chance on his determination, it's only fair that our main defence is not random either. This change for life steal should only affect warlocks because unlike other classes, I say it again, it's at the core of our class. If it cannot be done we need something else to replace that defensive system to even things out with other classes.
Class features So class features, our feats are weaker in comparison to other classes features.
Dark one's blessing 1k hp restored for killing a target that is cursed, the problem is that a majority of powers consume curse, how often do you actually kill a cursed target? Not often, not only that but the healing done by it is too low to be useful. If it offered something like increased life steal or another benefit and increased healing(3/6/9/12% total hp?) (+changes to curse consume not consuming curse but rather synergizing with it) ...then yes!
Deadly Curse 1k ish damage on cursing target. The idea of curses doing damage is not bad, however it's very limited in usefulness because of it's really low damage. Especially if curses were changed to curse synergy instead of curse consume, then this might need to be changed to something else entirely. How about increasing damage done by x% on targets afflicted with Warlock's Curse. That seems like a much better feat already.
Warding Curse 10% less damage from cursed targets.. that's not a bad feat in itself, but as mentionned earlier the curse consuming aspect of powers has a terrible synergy with it, changing that to my first suggestion would definitly improve this feat at the same time.
Prince of Hell - This feat was useless before but I can see it becoming good in mod 6.. somewhat. I still think this feat should be a % increase of ArP not a stat increase.
Dust to Dust, this feat doesn't generate AP when your borrowed time ticks, I think it should. The description says when your soul sparks heal you, borrowed time makes my spark heal me, so why not? As of now, I don't see much of a reason to slot this on my bar.
Snuff out. A single spark out of 30 for one target dying.. with an internal cooldown. That is definitly an underwhelming feat. I can see this reworked in two ways. 1: Same ability but instead of generating 1 soul spark per kill, you generate a full bar (6 sparks). 2: Remove the cooldown and rework the ability that each kill grants a single spark, and ranks up grant more sparks per kill. For example, rank 1 = 1 spark, rank 2= 2 sparks, etc.
Shadow Walk. GWF gets the same thing but 30% run and 3% deflection chance we get.. 30% run and.. nothing, why not add 3% life steal along with it? Rogue master infiltrator - 15% run speed, 3% crit, 3% deflect, why don't we get something cool like that too? Between that and Snuff out my choice would be obvious. I could see dark one's blessing becoming this % life steal, 3% crit,15% run speed. Why not? Rogues got the same thing :P
Soul reaping and hope stealer give a 'stat bonus' like 1k life steal, which gets outdated very quickly in most cases because as time goes gear gets stronger and devalues those feats. Why don't we move them to a percentage chance and be done with it? you won't need to change it everytime you change the cap or everytime the gear gap gets too big for what you orginally developped it for. The biggest majority of feats are designed in percentages, which is good. These two deserve the same treatment IMO.
Constitution and HP contributions In mod 4 and 5 one of the advantages of warlock over classes was that constitution is an important stat for the class. Meaning that the average warlock invests alot of points into constitution returns with better damage and more HP. In mod 6 however, this changes (this affects all classes not just warlock) Tankier classes have lost an edge because constitution plays a role on your character base hit points, HP from gear is not factored in, and gear HP bonuses is the same for every class. Meaning the difference between total HP for a non tanky, and a tanky class is not as noticeable as before. I made some preview testing with a control wizard for constitution contribution, here's the results.
The First two pictures are lv 70 mod 6 and two pieces of elemental fire (so there's another 20k missing from gear + enchants I don't have yet.)
These two are mod 5 (Live) at level 60 at 17.5k GS
67k vs 64k and 30.5k vs 33k
In the first case I was missing 2 pieces of gear from elemental fire gear, which is roughly 20k more HP, so for testing's sake let's make it 87k and 84k because that's what it'll be when you gear up at 70. So that means 8 point of con contribute to about 3% of my total HP. For 8 points of Con the stat shows +16% because it's 2% per Con points, we're actually getting 3% of our HP from these 8 points of Con.
In the second scenario we're talking more of 8-10% for 6 points of Con, which is two less than the first example. The game stats simply note +12% HP, this is vaguely more true here than it is for the second one. This is what I mean by underwhelming, constitution on preview feels useless, and I dont think it should be this way. Adjusting gear hp to tanky/non tanky classes will not fix these issues because someone who decides to raise con on a character that doesn't have it as a primary or secondary stat will still be penalized in both aspects instead of losing DPS but gaining more HP you get losing DPS and mediocre HP. That would force people to roll out DPS stats for characters and kill the idea of spreading the stats as you wish them to be. In any case, the warlock's advantage of higher con over his brother casters will vanish if something is not done about this and tip the balance more towards other casters in mod 6. Pair this with the loss of life steal as our main mechanic for survival and warlock's uniqueness starts to fade away in face of CWs
Damnation This tree path is viewed as everyone as inferior to the other two by every warlock for one simple reason: the soul puppet dies too frequently. Our feats depend on the puppet to be alive for us to benefit from most of the damnation feats and since the puppet dies so easily it takes away the strenght from this path. If the puppet was made much harder to kill this path would improve tenfolds. The synergy between the puppet drawing agro with mocking spirit is bad because it kills your puppet fast, and then you don't benefit from your feats anymore. If you intended damnation to rely soul puppet to do some agro management you also need to give it proportional HP so it won't get two hit KO'd by random mobs in WoD.
All things PvP
All right here's a list of the things I will cover in this section.
-Encounter powers and casting speed/times
-Soul Sparks
-Shift/shadow slip
Casting Speed Most of the warlock spells are too slow casting, the biggest loser in that category being Harrowstorm at first place, then soul scorch, curse bite, Blades of vanquished armies, wraith shadow. So warlocks get some very slow spells and the rest are medium-slow, there really is only a very few fast casting warlock spell. Unlike rangers fast casting roots or wizards fast casting stuns, the problem is that on even grounds the warlock needs to cast 1 second before the wizard to actually hit him with spells. Especially when you pit up Harrowstorm VS entangling Force, increasing casting times to be on par with other classes would solve many problems the SW face in pvp.
Encounter powers Curse bite: I could see this power becoming an instant cast spell. To add some niche to it and make it really interesting you could go as far that it damages your cursed targets even if you don't maintain line of sight with them, that means it damages your cursed targets, period, no matter where they are. Remembering there's a timer to how long curses last it would balance it to not be unbalanced, or simply after x uses the curse disapears to prevent people from abusing it. It would give a very nice application when fighting rogues for example, curse - stealth - curse bite, still takes damage.
Harrowstorm: casting 2x faster is a big improvement, the spell is extremely slow and hard to land, sometimes you will notice that when you start casting your targets will run the opposite direction or go stealth while you cast and it will cancel your poor power and do nothing. I think this power should be the same casting speed as chill spike from the wizards list to be on par.
Warlock's bargain, this spell sacrifices HP for life steal, usually a good choice in PvE, since it's considered life steal in PvP you get half the benefits, and in reality when you use this spell you barely break even in terms how much hp restored/sacrificed with it, and that's if your opponent doesn't deflect/dodge/block it, in which case you pretty much take your HP and throw it in the garbage can. I get the idea of some spells are better for PvE and some for PvP but I think it could do with some improvements for PvP. However if you are a DPS build, you will get more returns from this spell because it is one of the only high damage instant cast necrotic spells available. I think it should be modified to not be affected by healing depression, so that the rewards/sacrifice HP ratio is better than 1:1 or lower than 1:1.
Vampiric Embrace: This power has low damage, I think it deserves an increase in it, most powers will give better returns even if you're temptation warlock with capstone. The biggest problem is that there is healing depression on both the healing then on the temporary HP. Couple that with low damage and you get a not so useful power.
Soul Sparks The speed at which you lose your soul sparks is overwhelming, you stop combat for a second and you're out, all your buffs and stacks are gone. As a Soulbinder's strength compared to a Hellbringer is the added survival, if you remove our stacks of soul sparks instantly as soon as combat ends that means that 95% of the time there's no benefit to not running an hellbringer in PvP.
What I suggest is the once combat ends, you lose soul sparks based of a rate of x per second. For example, if you managed to get all your sparks up in combat, once it ends you would lose 1 spark per seconds, or 1 spark per two seconds. That gives you 30seconds/1 minute to re enter combat before it's gone and you have to build up again. I don't mind the aspect of building stacks up, what I don't like is how fast you lose those stacks. I honestly believe it would be very beneficial for warlocks to remove the HP healed from consuming sparks when combat end and inputing a system that makes you lose sparks overtime instead. A good compromise would be that your sparks heal you progressively as you lose them after the combat end, that would likely be ideal.
Or if anything, give Soulbinders the potential to reach 30 stacks quickly via daily uses or some other method. Like a wizard have feats to get instantly 5 stacks of arcane mastery when casting the lightning daily, I don't see why we couldn't get something similar too.
Shift mechanic Alot of warlocks feel like they shouldn't have shadow slip but it be replaced by a dodge, while this could help with alot of the problems we face about damage mitigation, by simply dodging a big hit. currently you cannot help but taking the big hit, and some classes can do it alot.Where a wizard or cleric can dodge the rogue's shocking execution, you can only look at it coming in your face. I understand GWF are in the same situation, however GWFs have determination, and we do not. I'm not going to get started on GWF though that's for another thread, so back to SW, there's alot of optimization that needs attention IMO for warlocks to be able to survive spike damage. Because currently rogues simply run up to you, SE, you're dead, that's it, one hit KO, nothing you can do about it, at least other classes can dodge it, we can't. Removing the shadow slip would take away the flavor of the class and I don't think that's what we need. I only have a vague idea bout this, but I think having an ability or method of mitigating a single high spike damage would be an enormous help to our class. Something similar to wizard's shield would be extremely helpful for warlocks because they cannot avoid the damage, just mitigate it, I think the shield belongs better on warlocks than wizards. But it could be something new entirely I'm sure we could come up with some smart idea about it.We have a suggestion made by overdriver that sounds really interesting to me, here is the quote:
For shadow sprint, I would love to see it have an effect identical to Impossible to Catch that is only in effect for the duration of the sprint. It currently does not resist all control effects as indicated in the tooltip.
Making it identical to ITC would give the SW the ability to break free from non-prone cc, and would help deflect spike damage without making the shift ability a true dodge. This would be far more wai (in my opinion) than the way shadow slip works now.
PvP armor set bonus As you may be aware, alot of people think that the warlock set bonus for the pvp armor is useless. ''Grants 9% damage increase to enemies below 20% HP''. Seeing as the majority of warlocks use Killing Flames at this moment, and the fact that the set bonus grants no synergy to any warlock abilities, I understand that alot of us warlocks would like a different set bonus. What I suggest is something that will synergize with warlock abilities or use class mechanic curses in the set bonus. Here's a couple example:
1. Cursed targets take 10% more damage from all sources.
2. Cursed targets move 25% slower.
3. Warlock's curse roots enemies for 2sec.
4. Shadow slipping grants 50% DR instead of 30%.
5. Shadow slip costs 20% less stamina.
6. Or any current existing set bonus that is better than the one we have, such as accursed diabolists' for example, which fits in well with our DoT DPS caster role.
Conclusion So that sums it up, it's a very big thread but there's alot to say about warlocks right now, because on preview they're in pretty bad shape, this is why i took so much of my time (many hours) to dedicate to this massive thread that goes about every thing good and bad about warlocks and what changes can be made to return it to good shape. With the delay of mod 6, I hope this extra time will be used to consider our suggestions. Also note that if you wish to discuss this post, do so in my other thread on the preview forum, because it is not permitted in official feedback threads.
Side note: I don't think we have a new class advocate since kitten left the role a while back. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks for your time,
Warlock Zek
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
Bug: Dark Revelry gives to allies 20% of the warlock's Power, not of their own
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited March 2015
Feedback: SW (temp)
I find it really usefull but if some mobs hit me i die almost instant cuz i am lack of DR and deflection the party do not benefit from my LS if i am all time on the floor pls take my feedback to change shadow sprint and increase the dr to at least 50% + this DR shoud work like CWs shild encounter or GF block.
Hey all, wanted to drop in and let you all know we are monitoring the PVP performance.
To clarify some things, we are generally fairly happy with where GWFs are in PVE. They are competitive, and do very solid damage for the risks they take being in melee range (where there are more consistent threats to worry about).
Very nice, they're monitoring pvp performance and the weakest class on pvp got more nerfs, nice work panderus
There are few things that you as designer should reconsider.
Overal damage nerf is too big for SW. Tyranical Threat half dmg and Accursed Diabolist set is gone.
On many SW TT is 20-40% of their damage, AC is another 20%.
It means minimum 40% less damage just like that, it's way too much
While we dont see many direct nerfs it will impact SW gameplay a lot.
At same gs lvl on live I was able to outdamage most CWs,
which is fine, because SW lack any real control power and does not bring anything more than pure dps in party.
Now with dmg nerfed I don't see why any1 would take SW over CW in a party for difficult dungeons or skirmishes.
Second important thing is CON bonuses affecting only part of character total HP.
Which means low CON classes are almost on the same level as high CON (gf, gwf, sw).
Difference between 15 and 26 should be much more than 2-3k HP if your total is in 50-100k range.
While CON stat says you have extra 16% with 26CON, its only 2-3% in real.
Compared to critical chances or damage buff from other stats it's not good.
There are few things that you as designer should reconsider.
Overal damage nerf is too big for SW. Tyranical Threat half dmg and Accursed Diabolist set is gone.
On many SW TT is 20-40% of their damage, AC is another 20%.
It means minimum 40% less damage just like that, it's way too much
While we dont see many direct nerfs it will impact SW gameplay a lot.
At same gs lvl on live I was able to outdamage most CWs,
which is fine, because SW lack any real control power and does not bring anything more than pure dps in party.
Now with dmg nerfed I don't see why any1 would take SW over CW in a party for difficult dungeons or skirmishes.
Second important thing is CON bonuses affecting only part of character total HP.
Which means low CON classes are almost on the same level as high CON (gf, gwf, sw).
Difference between 15 and 26 should be much more than 2-3k HP if your total is in 50-100k range.
While CON stat says you have extra 16% with 26CON, its only 2-3% in real.
Compared to critical chances or damage buff from other stats it's not good.
They effectively killed off the class. TT wasn't OP, it's just that it was the only option available to put out any real damage as an SW.
If anything, they needed to buff other skills/dailies.
SWs were always a one hit wonder (DPS). Without proper mobs that stick around for the duration, TT wasn't effective. In Mod6 With lower DPS, why would anyone want to play an SW over a CW? CW's get damage plus CC. An SW MUST be able to significantly out damage a CW to be considered an asset.
There are few things that you as designer should reconsider.
Overal damage nerf is too big for SW. Tyranical Threat half dmg and Accursed Diabolist set is gone.
On many SW TT is 20-40% of their damage, AC is another 20%.
It means minimum 40% less damage just like that, it's way too much
While we dont see many direct nerfs it will impact SW gameplay a lot.
At same gs lvl on live I was able to outdamage most CWs,
which is fine, because SW lack any real control power and does not bring anything more than pure dps in party.
Now with dmg nerfed I don't see why any1 would take SW over CW in a party for difficult dungeons or skirmishes.
Second important thing is CON bonuses affecting only part of character total HP.
Which means low CON classes are almost on the same level as high CON (gf, gwf, sw).
Difference between 15 and 26 should be much more than 2-3k HP if your total is in 50-100k range.
While CON stat says you have extra 16% with 26CON, its only 2-3% in real.
Compared to critical chances or damage buff from other stats it's not good.
And you forgot the Creeping death 40% nerf so, it's 50% damage nerf or more!
From a PVP perspective it's probably a good thing that they nerfed TT and that the AC 4 pc bonus is going away. Devs seem to focus more on PVE balance, and SWs were always strong at PVE dps because TT and AC were doing a larger percentage of our total damage then they should've done. Which wouldn't be that bad except that TT and AC aren't useful in PVP, so there's a big disparity between PVE effectiveness and PVP effectiveness. So even though SWs have clearly been the worst PVP class in mod 5, they've gotten nothing but nerfs because their PVE dps was so high.
Now that AC 4 pc is gone, and TT is nerfed, SWs will be equally terrible at both PVE and PVP. So now instead of only the PVP SWs complaining about the class, the PVE only SWs will join in as well. Also maybe now the devs will start to notice how much the class is underperforming in their internal dungeon runs and buff some of our other abilities that are useful in both PVE and PVP. I just hope they notice soon enough to add some buffs before mod 6 launches. Otherwise we'll be stuck at the bottom of the totem pole in both PVE and PVP until Mod 7 or later.
From a PVP perspective it's probably a good thing that they nerfed TT and that the AC 4 pc bonus is going away. Devs seem to focus more on PVE balance, and SWs were always strong at PVE dps because TT and AC were doing a larger percentage of our total damage then they should've done. Which wouldn't be that bad except that TT and AC aren't useful in PVP, so there's a big disparity between PVE effectiveness and PVP effectiveness. So even though SWs have clearly been the worst PVP class in mod 5, they've gotten nothing but nerfs because their PVE dps was so high.
Now that AC 4 pc is gone, and TT is nerfed, SWs will be equally terrible at both PVE and PVP. So now instead of only the PVP SWs complaining about the class, the PVE only SWs will join in as well. Also maybe now the devs will start to notice how much the class is underperforming in their internal dungeon runs and buff some of our other abilities that are useful in both PVE and PVP. I just hope they notice soon enough to add some buffs before mod 6 launches. Otherwise we'll be stuck at the bottom of the totem pole in both PVE and PVP until Mod 7 or later.
Yeah this class is such a messed up class. It seems they never really put much work into balance and it always felt rushed to me.
Personally, from a NON-SW player, it seems like Shift should make the SW un-target-able and invisible during use. Also the Damage Resist gained should be on its own layer of DR (like GF block) this would atleast give some survival tools to the class for PVP. Not much, but still some.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
From a PVP perspective it's probably a good thing that they nerfed TT and that the AC 4 pc bonus is going away. Devs seem to focus more on PVE balance, and SWs were always strong at PVE dps because TT and AC were doing a larger percentage of our total damage then they should've done.
Those were things that allowed the SW to even keep up with the CW. A SW without fury capstone, AC, or use of TT is a very very weak striker.
From testing dungeons on Preview, thus far, SW has far and away been the top DPSer.
You need a Tank. You need a healer. CWs can no longer run ahead and just nuke things, they will get melted. Thus they have to slot more control oriented powers as much as possible.
Positioning and teamwork is super important, without it you will wipe.
You cannot burst bad guys down, thus DoT damage gets plenty of time to work it's magic. What do SWs have a lot of? DoTs, yay! :cool:
Now if your testing/experience on the test shard is different, I'd love to have legitimate conversations with you about builds, etc.
If you are simply spouting off opinions based on only reading the patch notes, and/or simply running around trying to solo HEs, please do some actual testing.
Capiche? Good! *high five*
It's a whole new world of challenging fun in Mod 6 my friends, enjoy it!
PS - The above post does not mean some mechanics of the SW can/should not be improved. I'm simply stating we are still viable, and will be desired, in PvE dungeons! :cool:
From testing dungeons on Preview, thus far, SW has far and away been the top DPSer.
You need a Tank. You need a healer. CWs can no longer run ahead and just nuke things, they will get melted. Thus they have to slot more control oriented powers as much as possible.
Positioning and teamwork is super important, without it you will wipe.
You cannot burst bad guys down, thus DoT damage gets plenty of time to work it's magic. What do SWs have a lot of? DoTs, yay! :cool:
Now if your testing/experience on the test shard is different, I'd love to have legitimate conversations with you about builds, etc.
If you are simply spouting off opinions based on only reading the patch notes, and/or simply running around trying to solo HEs, please do some actual testing.
Capiche? Good! *high five*
It's a whole new world of challenging fun in Mod 6 my friends, enjoy it!
An honest question: are you having any difficulty running campaign dailies solo on your sw (on preview)? One legitimate side of the conversation is "SWs can survive in a quest that is designed to be group content provided all the class roles are filled and the team works as a team". Another legitimate side of the conversation is "SWs will struggle in a quest that is designed to be solo content". Where is the middle ground?
You are one of the very few SW players who seems to be saying mod6 is just kosher for SWs with the smallest of tweeks. I would hate for the devs to see one post telling them what they want to hear out of 700 posts that do not tell them what they want to hear and after seeing that one post say, "well sws COULD be better, heck guys, ANY CLASS "could" be better, so we will just let the class be as it is till some future date".
You are good with where SW sands in pvp come mod6???
You are good with where SW sands in pvp come mod6???
Please see my above comment where I said I was speaking from a PvE standpoint.
I also mentioned SW could still use some T.L.C., and that goes doubly so for PvP. I am not saying SW is perfect, but I am saying that SW is going to be ok in PvE and desirable as an inclusion in Dungeon parties.
Currently I am running Soulbinder Fury with a Defender Companion, and I can solo 2-3 man HEs fairly dang well. 3-5 man HEs are a no go, and that's ok!
I've finished Biggrins Tomb in IWD, and Drake Pen / Cult Prison / Thayan Magical Shelter in WoD, all on my own.
So yea, SW definitely can do the content! :cool:
Please see my above comment where I said I was speaking from a PvE standpoint.
I also mentioned SW could still use some T.L.C., and that goes doubly so for PvP. I am not saying SW is perfect, but I am saying that SW is going to be ok in PvE and desirable as an inclusion in Dungeon parties.
Hope that clarifies!
It does clarify and it is good to have a counterpoint to the landslide full on negative view that a lot of sw's are taking. The view is justified to an extent.
You are not an average/causal player, which should also be taken into account. You have at least 2 build/play guides on these forums for two separate classes.
Looking at the average player and the difficulty curve of sw as compared to any other class, I think it is reasonable to say the class can use more than its rationed dose of dev love, along with most other classes. It has some pretty dire issue that need fixed in order for about 90% of the nwo playerbase to find even close to the utility in sw that they find in other classes.
I do think it is the only class that will be able to fill a pure dps role in mod6 (in a group) and mainly because that is all it can do. CW will go cc. I think most people will find the class a very expensive luxury to support during a dungeon. Its damage will make runs go faster but its lack of effective innate defense means it will be much more heavily reliant on support classes than other classes are.
After some testing, and experience in pvp with cast times, I propose a slight buff to SW. I don't know about game mechanics like the stats and how to balance out abilities, I'll leave that to the pros. But I propose that one, you make our shift ability a dodge like TR/HR/CW, and that you either remove all cast times from abilites, or make our casts uninterruptible. I think that either leaving lifesteal the way it is at 60 on preview or somehow removing the harshness of the stats curve at higher levels would do wonders for survivability, but also you could look at buffing our armor and damage resist, thats out of my league though so talk to some number crunchers from the community about that. Just my two cents...
The hit to Creeping Death really has me at a loss...
I understand the Tyrannical Threat thing, to a point. However, Creeping Death is just... Blargh.
TBH, I don't understand even the first one.
First, the class is so build that everyone spams TT in dungeons because they have nothing else that comes even close to it in terms of being useful... so they react by taking it away because it's OP. When, you know, running TT through a properly huddled mob still makes you a middle class, if not poor man's version of some CW specs.
The second nerf is just comedy gold, given the relatively pitiful damage output the supposed "striker" class already has.
I do think it is the only class that will be able to fill a pure dps role in mod6 (in a group) and mainly because that is all it can do. CW will go cc. I think most people will find the class a very expensive luxury to support during a dungeon. Its damage will make runs go faster but its lack of effective innate defense means it will be much more heavily reliant on support classes than other classes are.
I see SW as almost a necessity, as our DPS is significantly higher then other classes in Mod 6 over the course of a Dungeon. At least in my experiences thus far...
If you can't kill the bad guys in a timely manner you will fall as you will be eventually overwhelmed. Just like DPS classes in other MMO's sole job is to kill things, thus the SW may be in Mod 6. It's a necessary role, and one I accept for the class in PvE. It's symbiotic... As just cause I can kill something doesn't mean I can kill it before it kills me w/o the help of others: Threat Managers, Heals, Buff/Debuff, etc.
Mod 6, really brings teamwork to the forefront with the difficulty of the content. I'm cool with it! :cool:
I see SW as almost a necessity, as our DPS is significantly higher then other classes in Mod 6 over the course of a Dungeon. At least in my experiences thus far...
If you can't kill the bad guys in a timely manner you will fall as you will be eventually overwhelmed. Just like DPS classes in other MMO's sole job is to kill things, thus the SW may be in Mod 6. It's a necessary role, and one I accept for the class in PvE. It's symbiotic... As just cause I can kill something doesn't mean I can kill it before it kills me w/o the help of others: Threat Managers, Heals, Buff/Debuff, etc.
Mod 6, really brings teamwork to the forefront with the difficulty of the content. I'm cool with it! :cool:
Pitiful? Are you speaking PvE or PvP?
Because in PvE, comparatively to other classes, on live right now and in Mod 6, we are DPS Gods.
Is your SW 25k or something? Where is all this amazing power you speak of? My TR/CW/DC have no issues wiping mobs with ease compared to my SW who slowly melts things while being bashed over the head. As for team play, the SW is among the worst, too dependent on the right position for max damage while the TR has zero issues quickly dealing the most possible with ease. Also, please stop with the emotes.
TBH, I don't understand even the first one.
First, the class is so build that everyone spams TT in dungeons because they have nothing else that comes even close to it in terms of being useful...
My HB Fury doesn't use TT, doesn't need TT, never needed TT, but I was never one to follow build guides and whatnot, so I discovered everything for myself instead of following the crowd. Flames is a nice one, it does AOE to things around it, gates is a nice one if you can get the mobs to stand still long enough to take an old time photo(but it hits really hard).
so they react by taking it away because it's OP. When, you know, running TT through a properly huddled mob still makes you a middle class, if not poor man's version of some CW specs.
That is always their overreaction, nerf it into the ground, as far as the middle class, porr mans version of the cw... nah, i was out damaging a 18k cw when my lock was 14k, never felt anything like a cw until the release of the blatant ripoff of entangling force "hadars grasp"
The second nerf is just comedy gold, given the relatively pitiful damage output the supposed "striker" class already has.
The second nerf just further took away survivability, since LS was nerfed bargain was kind of the backup plan, but even after the change it isnt that bad, learn to play a little different, more tactics, less gung ho. And again with the reference to the SW being sub par... don't like the SW class? I've not had a single problem with feeling like I'm not doing damage, and as I stated earlier, I was out damaging CW hands down... in everything, still do on live(short of those OP r10 in every slot people), and I don't need TT to do it. So, just maybe... its not the class.
I see SW as almost a necessity, as our DPS is significantly higher then other classes in Mod 6 over the course of a Dungeon. At least in my experiences thus far...
If you can't kill the bad guys in a timely manner you will fall as you will be eventually overwhelmed. Just like DPS classes in other MMO's sole job is to kill things, thus the SW may be in Mod 6. It's a necessary role, and one I accept for the class in PvE. It's symbiotic... As just cause I can kill something doesn't mean I can kill it before it kills me w/o the help of others: Threat Managers, Heals, Buff/Debuff, etc.
Mod 6, really brings teamwork to the forefront with the difficulty of the content. I'm cool with it! :cool:
Pitiful? Are you speaking PvE or PvP?
Because in PvE, comparatively to other classes, on live right now and in Mod 6, we are DPS Gods.
I feel you on the teamwork where other mmos are concerned. But NWO teamwork is meh at best and to me that is easily as much on the players as it is on the game its self. I think it has to do with d&d's faulty combat role set-up with striker and leader an so on. The standard mmo setup being healer, tank, dps. So simple so streamlined. NWO is far from streamlined and that is true for everything from the dozens of types of currencies to party make up and class parity and roles.
So it comes down to what is that party like WITHOUT SW? What is the +/- of no sw + one of another class vs the +/- of one sw minus any other class that could fit that spot.
I still don't think sw will be THAT necessary. Another cw playing damage oor an hr could ft that role. Less damage, slower completion time but also the team does not have to have the hr or cw linked to lifesupport the entire time. Would love to see sw in the kind of spot light where its like, "omg we need this sw. Tank, you need to agro the adds more, kee em off the sw! Healer, you need to keep that sw alive, geez, we need him!"
I see it going more like this, "sw why do you die so much we knew we should have taken the hr instead".
Without some strong inherent defense mechanism equivalent to the other classes, I think it is inevitable that sw will be seen as a liability more than an asset most runs. WITH some inherent effective defense mechanism equivalent to other classes, sw WILL shine. Otherwise, I strongly feel it will fail. And most players who do not have a character worth writing an entire guide around agree with me entirely.
Because in PvE, comparatively to other classes, on live right now and in Mod 6, we are DPS Gods.
Well, CD nerf ****s up both. And since it makes for the majority of Fury damage output, well, I infer the obvious.
Admittedly I haven't played preview but I don't see where you're bringing the "DPS Gods" from, given that if anything , the class's capabilities got worse (asides from hadar grasp CC which sounds nice)
My HB Fury doesn't use TT, doesn't need TT, never needed TT, but I was never one to follow build guides and whatnot, so I discovered everything for myself instead of following the crowd. Flames is a nice one, it does AOE to things around it, gates is a nice one if you can get the mobs to stand still long enough to take an old time photo(but it hits really hard).
Well. I don't hugely use TT because I tend to be a bit overly sparing with dailies given how fast they actually recharge, and with certain groups, unless I go ahead, the fight tends to be pretty much over by the time the spell+curse actually happens XD. (My favourite mob tactic tends to be Dreadtheft railgun - basically DT a nice juicy target then run around so as to line the most monsters into the beam. Usual move makeup is Harrowstorm, Soul Scorch (my favourite for high HP targets since no cooldown and nice stackable dot with curse consume), DT) But, damage dealt suffers proportionally compared to what I've seen fury builds do, unless the rest of the group sucks or gets killed, which is when it kinda shines.
That is always their overreaction, nerf it into the ground, as far as the middle class, porr mans version of the cw... nah, i was out damaging a 18k cw when my lock was 14k, never felt anything like a cw until the release of the blatant ripoff of entangling force "hadars grasp"
The problem is when such overreaction comes from the fact that they did it to a class that doesn't have much else to go on. And... well, outdamaging a CW with a fury build isn't proof that all is well as much as the opposite would show things are screwed - besides I kinda doubt it was one of those Flames massive dot builds.
The second nerf just further took away survivability, since LS was nerfed bargain was kind of the backup plan, but even after the change it isnt that bad, learn to play a little different, more tactics, less gung ho. And again with the reference to the SW being sub par... don't like the SW class? I've not had a single problem with feeling like I'm not doing damage, and as I stated earlier, I was out damaging CW hands down... in everything, still do on live(short of those OP r10 in every slot people), and I don't need TT to do it. So, just maybe... its not the class.
Eh. Now, I play damnation spec which asides from ****ing up TT wasn't hit that badly, mainly because where there's nothing even death doesn't take, and at least one of the new feats, if they make it work properly (AKA the stated half weapon damage) will be appreciated. In live, at present, it's fun PvE even though I can't say the damage output is impressive, but like, the way I stay alive is soulsparks, LS from puppet through that feat, and to a lesser extent my own LS when lazoring crowds. So, understandably, the talk about survivability being even worse than it presently is, combined with other changes, like supposed massive drop of benefits from stat bonuses is frankly making me unexcited for the future. And that's all PvE
As far as PvP, pretty much the only viable build there was got broken by the CD nerf and lifesteal change and its creator seems to have quit, which kinda sums up the state of things at the moment.
This power summons 2 spirits to fight for you, however they stare blankly and do nothing for roughly 5 seconds after being summoned, wasting 1/3rd of the time it should be doing damage.
Can it be improved so that the spirits start attacking immediately after being summoned?
Feedback: Soul Puppet Is too squishy, it needs more hit points to live trough the new content. It doesn't manage to live longer than 4 seconds when fighting trough my dailies, not to mention how fast they die in dungeons. (1 hit KO), this is particularly problematic for Damnation SWs.
I will post more information when the preview goes back up, I'm going to run some ACT logs tonight.
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
Admittedly I haven't played preview but I don't see where you're bringing the "DPS Gods" from...
I will respond more in depth later on this weekend, but might I suguest you test things out on the Preview Shard? It will really help out your preparation for Mod 6.
Arm chair QBing is fine and dandy, but when the QB on the field is describing why things are not as you interpreted them to be, directly to you, might want to give it a bit more credence. :cool:
I will respond more in depth later on this weekend, but might I suguest you test things out on the Preview Shard? It will really help out your preparation for Mod 6.
Arm chair QBing is fine and dandy, but when the QB on the field is describing why things are not as you interpreted them to be, directly to you, might want to give it a bit more credence. :cool:
Not trying to be snarky, just being honest bud!
Well, not like I took any offense. Just that, your reaction is fairly different from what I have seen from others, and what my sense tells me from how it plays on live now, and what the changelogs actually say. Looking forwards to your post, anyhow.
I see SW as almost a necessity, as our DPS is significantly higher then other classes in Mod 6 over the course of a Dungeon. At least in my experiences thus far...
If you can't kill the bad guys in a timely manner you will fall as you will be eventually overwhelmed. Just like DPS classes in other MMO's sole job is to kill things, thus the SW may be in Mod 6. It's a necessary role, and one I accept for the class in PvE. It's symbiotic... As just cause I can kill something doesn't mean I can kill it before it kills me w/o the help of others: Threat Managers, Heals, Buff/Debuff, etc.
Mod 6, really brings teamwork to the forefront with the difficulty of the content. I'm cool with it! :cool:
Pitiful? Are you speaking PvE or PvP?
Because in PvE, comparatively to other classes, on live right now and in Mod 6, we are DPS Gods.
I have to second this and second it from new dungeon exp on preview.
PS. My new hardware came this evening...will be back in action soon.
OK here's my line of testing for tonight with Damnation. If the pictures are too small for you right click copy URL and open them in a new tab.
Bug: Wrathful Souls Wrathful souls does not grant the correct amount of hit points stolen from the target when my soul puppet deals damage.
The first picture is the amount of damage my soul puppet dealt, 'Wraith Claw' is my puppet attacking.
The second picture is the amount of HP my wrathful souls feat restored.
According to the 38k damage done by the puppet I should have been healed for 5800 (15%). The actual amount was 725.
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
Feedback: Soul Puppet and Immolation Spirits hit points
The total hit points for both the soul puppet and Immolation spirits (Daily power summon) should be increased accordingly with the new mod Total HP. The current situation being that they can get one shot by bigger monsters or simply die within 3 seconds of combat.
Here is recorded the total HP of my soul puppet, being roughly 25k. The weakest monster deals 3k-10k damage per hit in dread ring dailies. That means if the puppet gets hit by all 3 at once he's dead in 1 second. And we're speaking of the weakest monsters in dread ring, not the big ones. Case being the 'Thayan Servitors' that scream Neverwinter Fools
Here is the soul puppet total HP.
Here is the min and max damage of dread ring servitor.
I've also managed to estimate the HP of Immolation spirits summon, it should be 20-25k too. In this picture the spirit was close to death with 16k damage.
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
Comments
All things PvE
Let's be blunt, in live, our dps and survival for PvE is trough the roof. Any good warlock player with DC sigil will put out massive amounts of damage in every dungeon he does, even if he's not the DPS tree. So let's analyze what makes us good in PvE, and I will tackle them and other issues in order:
-DoTs / Fury Capstone
-Acursed diabolist set bonus/ glyphs
-Tyranical threat (Cleric artifact)
-Life Steal
-Class Features compared to other classes
-Damnation tree
Curse mechanics
All right, so one of the improvements I can see to the core mechanics of the class itself is the 'curse consume' aspect. I suggest to replace it with 'Curse Synergy'. For example, a SW gets 20% bonus damage when damaging cursed opponents, but alot of powers cannot benefit from this because casting them consumes the curse. So if you curse your target then cast dreadtheft, you will lose your curse damage bonus. This is also true for the fury capstone, powers that consume the curse requires you to recast a curse more often than should be necessary simply to benefit from your capstone, and powers that are channel-type like dreadtheft you simply cannot cancel to recurse because you lose the power by the same time. Some of you experienced warlocks probably know by now that using Warlock's bargain puts a curse on the target which is not consumed by powers, so if you warlock's bargain + curse + dreadtheft you still get your curse damage bonus and fury capstone. I don't think it should be this way, I think improving the mechanic to 'if the target is cursed when casting - gain x benefits' aka curse synergy and not remove the curse from the target would avoid curse spamming and problems like not being able to benefit from curse damage bonus when using curse consume channel powers like dreadtheft.
Accursed diabolist set bonus/Glyphs.
This was a huge thing in our DPS arsenal, the reason is many of the warlock powers are Damage over Time effects and each 'tick' of those powers count as an encounter power of it's own. As a rule of thumb the set bonus is 3% hp(max 2k) for every encounter cast. Now that would be an ordinary(I mean not OP) set if not for the fact that each tick of DoT powers count for an encounter power of their own. Let me just mention that dreadtheft ticks 24 total times (4/sec) and if you're using this set bonus for each dreadtheft cast you stack 24x the damage bonus. On a high HP monster like tiamat your dreadtheft will literally proc 48k damage before debuffs and buffs every time you cast dreadtheft, and it goes higher if you use more DoT powers like Warlock's bargain etc. Arguably this can be a good or a bad thing depending on the viewer, it's a big factor in why warlocks are so high in the damage chart (along with tyranical threat). a Typical dreadtheft can do 15k damage on it's own + 40k per target you hit consistently with it, damage racks up really fast. This is why removing our set bonus will hurt the class really badly, because it depends on it to perform, and when you compare this class to others for balance, people factor in this enormous DPS boost. If you take the same warlock but not using this armor bonus it will perform significantly less, making armor choice practicly non existant, because everyone will wear this over draconic or even black ice for PvE. The same concept applies to glyphs even if I didn't really cover it up.While there is no immediate improvement for this situation, when making changes to the warlock class you must take this factor into account. Removing the set bonus would probably hurt the class more than it should be while making every other armor set bonus as good as this one is probably not the answer. Without changing the underlying mechanics of multi encounter procs there's little we can do about this specific matter right now. And if it was indeed changed, then we would need something to compensate for the loss otherwise the class will lose alot of it's performance in comparison to other classes
Tyranical Threat
This power is the only daily any warlock will ever use in PvE. It's ridiculously powerful, it's completely out of line with every other daily in the game except opressive force and a couple oddballs. While having a powerful daily is well and all that, the difference between us warlocks and wizards is we're very dependant on these features to score that DPS. What does that mean in practical terms? To be a good warlock you need to SPAM Tyranical threat as much as humanly possible in every good encounter. Remove that and the set bonus mentionned above(or glyphs + encounter multi ticks) and the class becomes very mediocre at DPS. And that's bad because the class doesn't do much other than DPS. Unlike CWs, if you nerf their damage they still got their CC to fall back on, roll a opressor and CC everything to death. Nerf the damage of a warlock and you have... nothing, life steal which is the core mechanic for defence on a SW is dependant on damage, even temptation tree's healing is dependant on damage. A warlock that doesn't deal damage is a weight in the group that's got no uses. So it is to be expected of a class whose primary role is DPS that it would deal alot of it. It would be cool to tone down Tyranical threat only if it was replaced by something else, not only would that add diversity from the old TT spamming but it would also solve the gap between this daily and other dailies available. Another really important point is that applying curses with tyranical threat is a slow animation, it can take 3 to 5 seconds simply applying curses to ennemies, effectively cutting down the time by 1/4 of its duration, being 20s currently, and that's if your targets don't die and you have to recast your curses again then you pretty much wasted your daily power. I think a way to solve this problem would be that casting curses with tyranical threat active be sped up by the same amount of time it takes to cast normal curses(instantaneous) and increase it's total duration but lower it's damage link %. The daily power would be easier to use and it would also be easier to re link new targets with it after initial targets died. Because of the fact players do not generate AP while using Tyranical threat it would not threaten balance to increase it's duration and speeding up animation for a lower damage link trade off.
Life Steal
Now this issue has been created with the changes to life steal with mod 6. When we look at it, every class has means of defending themselves. For example, rangers use roots and dodges as defence, CWs have control powers, GFs block and GWFs determination among others, ETC. What about SW? Our main defence is shift and life steal. The thing with life steal is every class can have it, not just warlock. While only wizards have real control powers, everyone has life steal, including said wizards. That is why I feel like life steal is a seperate case when we look at warlocks, because it is at the core of our class defensive mechanism, unlike other classes. If you removed Life steal from the game completely, Wizards would still have control powers, GFs would still block, while we would only have shift left. By putting our main defense mechanics as a 'chance' to happen the problem is that we cannot rely on our main defence system. It's the same as saying to a wizard you control powers have a 15% chance of actually working, you can stack up control bonus and it increases your chance to succeed at controlling powers. What if he's low HP and casts that power to disable mobs and save time until that cleric hits him with a heal and it so turns out that he rolled the wrong numbers and he's left defenceless because his control powers didn't work. Nobody wants that right?This is how warlocks feel about life steal chance. Because it's at the core of our defense system, there's two ways things should go- 1. make adjusments to the old system to make it reliable again for warlocks at a lower rate % if necessary. 2- Give a new defensive mechanism to the class, whatever that might be. One cannot make the main defensive aspect of a class work only in x% of situations, it hurts the class really badly, in this case warlock. A GF doesn't block x% of attacks, a GWF doesn't have a random proc chance on his determination, it's only fair that our main defence is not random either. This change for life steal should only affect warlocks because unlike other classes, I say it again, it's at the core of our class. If it cannot be done we need something else to replace that defensive system to even things out with other classes.
Class features
So class features, our feats are weaker in comparison to other classes features.
Dark one's blessing 1k hp restored for killing a target that is cursed, the problem is that a majority of powers consume curse, how often do you actually kill a cursed target? Not often, not only that but the healing done by it is too low to be useful. If it offered something like increased life steal or another benefit and increased healing(3/6/9/12% total hp?) (+changes to curse consume not consuming curse but rather synergizing with it) ...then yes!
Deadly Curse 1k ish damage on cursing target. The idea of curses doing damage is not bad, however it's very limited in usefulness because of it's really low damage. Especially if curses were changed to curse synergy instead of curse consume, then this might need to be changed to something else entirely. How about increasing damage done by x% on targets afflicted with Warlock's Curse. That seems like a much better feat already.
Warding Curse 10% less damage from cursed targets.. that's not a bad feat in itself, but as mentionned earlier the curse consuming aspect of powers has a terrible synergy with it, changing that to my first suggestion would definitly improve this feat at the same time.
Prince of Hell - This feat was useless before but I can see it becoming good in mod 6.. somewhat. I still think this feat should be a % increase of ArP not a stat increase.
Dust to Dust, this feat doesn't generate AP when your borrowed time ticks, I think it should. The description says when your soul sparks heal you, borrowed time makes my spark heal me, so why not? As of now, I don't see much of a reason to slot this on my bar.
Snuff out. A single spark out of 30 for one target dying.. with an internal cooldown. That is definitly an underwhelming feat. I can see this reworked in two ways. 1: Same ability but instead of generating 1 soul spark per kill, you generate a full bar (6 sparks). 2: Remove the cooldown and rework the ability that each kill grants a single spark, and ranks up grant more sparks per kill. For example, rank 1 = 1 spark, rank 2= 2 sparks, etc.
Shadow Walk. GWF gets the same thing but 30% run and 3% deflection chance we get.. 30% run and.. nothing, why not add 3% life steal along with it? Rogue master infiltrator - 15% run speed, 3% crit, 3% deflect, why don't we get something cool like that too? Between that and Snuff out my choice would be obvious. I could see dark one's blessing becoming this
Soul reaping and hope stealer give a 'stat bonus' like 1k life steal, which gets outdated very quickly in most cases because as time goes gear gets stronger and devalues those feats. Why don't we move them to a percentage chance and be done with it? you won't need to change it everytime you change the cap or everytime the gear gap gets too big for what you orginally developped it for. The biggest majority of feats are designed in percentages, which is good. These two deserve the same treatment IMO.
Constitution and HP contributions
In mod 4 and 5 one of the advantages of warlock over classes was that constitution is an important stat for the class. Meaning that the average warlock invests alot of points into constitution returns with better damage and more HP. In mod 6 however, this changes (this affects all classes not just warlock) Tankier classes have lost an edge because constitution plays a role on your character base hit points, HP from gear is not factored in, and gear HP bonuses is the same for every class. Meaning the difference between total HP for a non tanky, and a tanky class is not as noticeable as before. I made some preview testing with a control wizard for constitution contribution, here's the results.
The First two pictures are lv 70 mod 6 and two pieces of elemental fire (so there's another 20k missing from gear + enchants I don't have yet.)
These two are mod 5 (Live) at level 60 at 17.5k GS
67k vs 64k and 30.5k vs 33k
In the first case I was missing 2 pieces of gear from elemental fire gear, which is roughly 20k more HP, so for testing's sake let's make it 87k and 84k because that's what it'll be when you gear up at 70. So that means 8 point of con contribute to about 3% of my total HP. For 8 points of Con the stat shows +16% because it's 2% per Con points, we're actually getting 3% of our HP from these 8 points of Con.
In the second scenario we're talking more of 8-10% for 6 points of Con, which is two less than the first example. The game stats simply note +12% HP, this is vaguely more true here than it is for the second one. This is what I mean by underwhelming, constitution on preview feels useless, and I dont think it should be this way. Adjusting gear hp to tanky/non tanky classes will not fix these issues because someone who decides to raise con on a character that doesn't have it as a primary or secondary stat will still be penalized in both aspects instead of losing DPS but gaining more HP you get losing DPS and mediocre HP. That would force people to roll out DPS stats for characters and kill the idea of spreading the stats as you wish them to be. In any case, the warlock's advantage of higher con over his brother casters will vanish if something is not done about this and tip the balance more towards other casters in mod 6. Pair this with the loss of life steal as our main mechanic for survival and warlock's uniqueness starts to fade away in face of CWs
Damnation
This tree path is viewed as everyone as inferior to the other two by every warlock for one simple reason: the soul puppet dies too frequently. Our feats depend on the puppet to be alive for us to benefit from most of the damnation feats and since the puppet dies so easily it takes away the strenght from this path. If the puppet was made much harder to kill this path would improve tenfolds. The synergy between the puppet drawing agro with mocking spirit is bad because it kills your puppet fast, and then you don't benefit from your feats anymore. If you intended damnation to rely soul puppet to do some agro management you also need to give it proportional HP so it won't get two hit KO'd by random mobs in WoD.
All things PvP
All right here's a list of the things I will cover in this section.
-Encounter powers and casting speed/times
-Soul Sparks
-Shift/shadow slip
Casting Speed
Most of the warlock spells are too slow casting, the biggest loser in that category being Harrowstorm at first place, then soul scorch, curse bite, Blades of vanquished armies, wraith shadow. So warlocks get some very slow spells and the rest are medium-slow, there really is only a very few fast casting warlock spell. Unlike rangers fast casting roots or wizards fast casting stuns, the problem is that on even grounds the warlock needs to cast 1 second before the wizard to actually hit him with spells. Especially when you pit up Harrowstorm VS entangling Force, increasing casting times to be on par with other classes would solve many problems the SW face in pvp.
Encounter powers
Curse bite: I could see this power becoming an instant cast spell. To add some niche to it and make it really interesting you could go as far that it damages your cursed targets even if you don't maintain line of sight with them, that means it damages your cursed targets, period, no matter where they are. Remembering there's a timer to how long curses last it would balance it to not be unbalanced, or simply after x uses the curse disapears to prevent people from abusing it. It would give a very nice application when fighting rogues for example, curse - stealth - curse bite, still takes damage.
Harrowstorm: casting 2x faster is a big improvement, the spell is extremely slow and hard to land, sometimes you will notice that when you start casting your targets will run the opposite direction or go stealth while you cast and it will cancel your poor power and do nothing. I think this power should be the same casting speed as chill spike from the wizards list to be on par.
Warlock's bargain, this spell sacrifices HP for life steal, usually a good choice in PvE, since it's considered life steal in PvP you get half the benefits, and in reality when you use this spell you barely break even in terms how much hp restored/sacrificed with it, and that's if your opponent doesn't deflect/dodge/block it, in which case you pretty much take your HP and throw it in the garbage can. I get the idea of some spells are better for PvE and some for PvP but I think it could do with some improvements for PvP. However if you are a DPS build, you will get more returns from this spell because it is one of the only high damage instant cast necrotic spells available. I think it should be modified to not be affected by healing depression, so that the rewards/sacrifice HP ratio is better than 1:1 or lower than 1:1.
Vampiric Embrace: This power has low damage, I think it deserves an increase in it, most powers will give better returns even if you're temptation warlock with capstone. The biggest problem is that there is healing depression on both the healing then on the temporary HP. Couple that with low damage and you get a not so useful power.
Soul Sparks
The speed at which you lose your soul sparks is overwhelming, you stop combat for a second and you're out, all your buffs and stacks are gone. As a Soulbinder's strength compared to a Hellbringer is the added survival, if you remove our stacks of soul sparks instantly as soon as combat ends that means that 95% of the time there's no benefit to not running an hellbringer in PvP.
What I suggest is the once combat ends, you lose soul sparks based of a rate of x per second. For example, if you managed to get all your sparks up in combat, once it ends you would lose 1 spark per seconds, or 1 spark per two seconds. That gives you 30seconds/1 minute to re enter combat before it's gone and you have to build up again. I don't mind the aspect of building stacks up, what I don't like is how fast you lose those stacks. I honestly believe it would be very beneficial for warlocks to remove the HP healed from consuming sparks when combat end and inputing a system that makes you lose sparks overtime instead. A good compromise would be that your sparks heal you progressively as you lose them after the combat end, that would likely be ideal.
Or if anything, give Soulbinders the potential to reach 30 stacks quickly via daily uses or some other method. Like a wizard have feats to get instantly 5 stacks of arcane mastery when casting the lightning daily, I don't see why we couldn't get something similar too.
Shift mechanic
Alot of warlocks feel like they shouldn't have shadow slip but it be replaced by a dodge, while this could help with alot of the problems we face about damage mitigation, by simply dodging a big hit. currently you cannot help but taking the big hit, and some classes can do it alot.Where a wizard or cleric can dodge the rogue's shocking execution, you can only look at it coming in your face. I understand GWF are in the same situation, however GWFs have determination, and we do not. I'm not going to get started on GWF though that's for another thread, so back to SW, there's alot of optimization that needs attention IMO for warlocks to be able to survive spike damage. Because currently rogues simply run up to you, SE, you're dead, that's it, one hit KO, nothing you can do about it, at least other classes can dodge it, we can't. Removing the shadow slip would take away the flavor of the class and I don't think that's what we need. I only have a vague idea bout this, but I think having an ability or method of mitigating a single high spike damage would be an enormous help to our class. Something similar to wizard's shield would be extremely helpful for warlocks because they cannot avoid the damage, just mitigate it, I think the shield belongs better on warlocks than wizards. But it could be something new entirely I'm sure we could come up with some smart idea about it.We have a suggestion made by overdriver that sounds really interesting to me, here is the quote:
PvP armor set bonus
As you may be aware, alot of people think that the warlock set bonus for the pvp armor is useless. ''Grants 9% damage increase to enemies below 20% HP''. Seeing as the majority of warlocks use Killing Flames at this moment, and the fact that the set bonus grants no synergy to any warlock abilities, I understand that alot of us warlocks would like a different set bonus. What I suggest is something that will synergize with warlock abilities or use class mechanic curses in the set bonus. Here's a couple example:
1. Cursed targets take 10% more damage from all sources.
2. Cursed targets move 25% slower.
3. Warlock's curse roots enemies for 2sec.
4. Shadow slipping grants 50% DR instead of 30%.
5. Shadow slip costs 20% less stamina.
6. Or any current existing set bonus that is better than the one we have, such as accursed diabolists' for example, which fits in well with our DoT DPS caster role.
Conclusion
So that sums it up, it's a very big thread but there's alot to say about warlocks right now, because on preview they're in pretty bad shape, this is why i took so much of my time (many hours) to dedicate to this massive thread that goes about every thing good and bad about warlocks and what changes can be made to return it to good shape. With the delay of mod 6, I hope this extra time will be used to consider our suggestions. Also note that if you wish to discuss this post, do so in my other thread on the preview forum, because it is not permitted in official feedback threads.
Side note: I don't think we have a new class advocate since kitten left the role a while back. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks for your time,
Warlock Zek
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
SW (temp)
I find it really usefull but if some mobs hit me i die almost instant cuz i am lack of DR and deflection the party do not benefit from my LS if i am all time on the floor pls take my feedback to change shadow sprint and increase the dr to at least 50% + this DR shoud work like CWs shild encounter or GF block.
To clarify some things, we are generally fairly happy with where GWFs are in PVE. They are competitive, and do very solid damage for the risks they take being in melee range (where there are more consistent threats to worry about).
Very nice, they're monitoring pvp performance and the weakest class on pvp got more nerfs, nice work panderus
4th rank of this power INCREASES it's cooldown instead of reducing it.
Overal damage nerf is too big for SW. Tyranical Threat half dmg and Accursed Diabolist set is gone.
On many SW TT is 20-40% of their damage, AC is another 20%.
It means minimum 40% less damage just like that, it's way too much
While we dont see many direct nerfs it will impact SW gameplay a lot.
At same gs lvl on live I was able to outdamage most CWs,
which is fine, because SW lack any real control power and does not bring anything more than pure dps in party.
Now with dmg nerfed I don't see why any1 would take SW over CW in a party for difficult dungeons or skirmishes.
Second important thing is CON bonuses affecting only part of character total HP.
Which means low CON classes are almost on the same level as high CON (gf, gwf, sw).
Difference between 15 and 26 should be much more than 2-3k HP if your total is in 50-100k range.
While CON stat says you have extra 16% with 26CON, its only 2-3% in real.
Compared to critical chances or damage buff from other stats it's not good.
They effectively killed off the class. TT wasn't OP, it's just that it was the only option available to put out any real damage as an SW.
If anything, they needed to buff other skills/dailies.
SWs were always a one hit wonder (DPS). Without proper mobs that stick around for the duration, TT wasn't effective. In Mod6 With lower DPS, why would anyone want to play an SW over a CW? CW's get damage plus CC. An SW MUST be able to significantly out damage a CW to be considered an asset.
Now that AC 4 pc is gone, and TT is nerfed, SWs will be equally terrible at both PVE and PVP. So now instead of only the PVP SWs complaining about the class, the PVE only SWs will join in as well. Also maybe now the devs will start to notice how much the class is underperforming in their internal dungeon runs and buff some of our other abilities that are useful in both PVE and PVP. I just hope they notice soon enough to add some buffs before mod 6 launches. Otherwise we'll be stuck at the bottom of the totem pole in both PVE and PVP until Mod 7 or later.
Yeah this class is such a messed up class. It seems they never really put much work into balance and it always felt rushed to me.
Personally, from a NON-SW player, it seems like Shift should make the SW un-target-able and invisible during use. Also the Damage Resist gained should be on its own layer of DR (like GF block) this would atleast give some survival tools to the class for PVP. Not much, but still some.
Those were things that allowed the SW to even keep up with the CW. A SW without fury capstone, AC, or use of TT is a very very weak striker.
You need a Tank. You need a healer. CWs can no longer run ahead and just nuke things, they will get melted. Thus they have to slot more control oriented powers as much as possible.
Positioning and teamwork is super important, without it you will wipe.
You cannot burst bad guys down, thus DoT damage gets plenty of time to work it's magic. What do SWs have a lot of? DoTs, yay! :cool:
Now if your testing/experience on the test shard is different, I'd love to have legitimate conversations with you about builds, etc.
If you are simply spouting off opinions based on only reading the patch notes, and/or simply running around trying to solo HEs, please do some actual testing.
Capiche? Good! *high five*
It's a whole new world of challenging fun in Mod 6 my friends, enjoy it!
An honest question: are you having any difficulty running campaign dailies solo on your sw (on preview)? One legitimate side of the conversation is "SWs can survive in a quest that is designed to be group content provided all the class roles are filled and the team works as a team". Another legitimate side of the conversation is "SWs will struggle in a quest that is designed to be solo content". Where is the middle ground?
You are one of the very few SW players who seems to be saying mod6 is just kosher for SWs with the smallest of tweeks. I would hate for the devs to see one post telling them what they want to hear out of 700 posts that do not tell them what they want to hear and after seeing that one post say, "well sws COULD be better, heck guys, ANY CLASS "could" be better, so we will just let the class be as it is till some future date".
You are good with where SW sands in pvp come mod6???
I've finished Biggrins Tomb in IWD, and Drake Pen / Cult Prison / Thayan Magical Shelter in WoD, all on my own.
So yea, SW definitely can do the content! :cool:
Please see my above comment where I said I was speaking from a PvE standpoint.
I also mentioned SW could still use some T.L.C., and that goes doubly so for PvP. I am not saying SW is perfect, but I am saying that SW is going to be ok in PvE and desirable as an inclusion in Dungeon parties.
Hope that clarifies!
It does clarify and it is good to have a counterpoint to the landslide full on negative view that a lot of sw's are taking. The view is justified to an extent.
You are not an average/causal player, which should also be taken into account. You have at least 2 build/play guides on these forums for two separate classes.
Looking at the average player and the difficulty curve of sw as compared to any other class, I think it is reasonable to say the class can use more than its rationed dose of dev love, along with most other classes. It has some pretty dire issue that need fixed in order for about 90% of the nwo playerbase to find even close to the utility in sw that they find in other classes.
I do think it is the only class that will be able to fill a pure dps role in mod6 (in a group) and mainly because that is all it can do. CW will go cc. I think most people will find the class a very expensive luxury to support during a dungeon. Its damage will make runs go faster but its lack of effective innate defense means it will be much more heavily reliant on support classes than other classes are.
Just my opinion. We will see.
TBH, I don't understand even the first one.
First, the class is so build that everyone spams TT in dungeons because they have nothing else that comes even close to it in terms of being useful... so they react by taking it away because it's OP. When, you know, running TT through a properly huddled mob still makes you a middle class, if not poor man's version of some CW specs.
The second nerf is just comedy gold, given the relatively pitiful damage output the supposed "striker" class already has.
If you can't kill the bad guys in a timely manner you will fall as you will be eventually overwhelmed. Just like DPS classes in other MMO's sole job is to kill things, thus the SW may be in Mod 6. It's a necessary role, and one I accept for the class in PvE. It's symbiotic... As just cause I can kill something doesn't mean I can kill it before it kills me w/o the help of others: Threat Managers, Heals, Buff/Debuff, etc.
Mod 6, really brings teamwork to the forefront with the difficulty of the content. I'm cool with it! :cool:
Pitiful? Are you speaking PvE or PvP?
Because in PvE, comparatively to other classes, on live right now and in Mod 6, we are DPS Gods.
Is your SW 25k or something? Where is all this amazing power you speak of? My TR/CW/DC have no issues wiping mobs with ease compared to my SW who slowly melts things while being bashed over the head. As for team play, the SW is among the worst, too dependent on the right position for max damage while the TR has zero issues quickly dealing the most possible with ease. Also, please stop with the emotes.
My HB Fury doesn't use TT, doesn't need TT, never needed TT, but I was never one to follow build guides and whatnot, so I discovered everything for myself instead of following the crowd. Flames is a nice one, it does AOE to things around it, gates is a nice one if you can get the mobs to stand still long enough to take an old time photo(but it hits really hard).
That is always their overreaction, nerf it into the ground, as far as the middle class, porr mans version of the cw... nah, i was out damaging a 18k cw when my lock was 14k, never felt anything like a cw until the release of the blatant ripoff of entangling force "hadars grasp"
The second nerf just further took away survivability, since LS was nerfed bargain was kind of the backup plan, but even after the change it isnt that bad, learn to play a little different, more tactics, less gung ho. And again with the reference to the SW being sub par... don't like the SW class? I've not had a single problem with feeling like I'm not doing damage, and as I stated earlier, I was out damaging CW hands down... in everything, still do on live(short of those OP r10 in every slot people), and I don't need TT to do it. So, just maybe... its not the class.
I feel you on the teamwork where other mmos are concerned. But NWO teamwork is meh at best and to me that is easily as much on the players as it is on the game its self. I think it has to do with d&d's faulty combat role set-up with striker and leader an so on. The standard mmo setup being healer, tank, dps. So simple so streamlined. NWO is far from streamlined and that is true for everything from the dozens of types of currencies to party make up and class parity and roles.
So it comes down to what is that party like WITHOUT SW? What is the +/- of no sw + one of another class vs the +/- of one sw minus any other class that could fit that spot.
I still don't think sw will be THAT necessary. Another cw playing damage oor an hr could ft that role. Less damage, slower completion time but also the team does not have to have the hr or cw linked to lifesupport the entire time. Would love to see sw in the kind of spot light where its like, "omg we need this sw. Tank, you need to agro the adds more, kee em off the sw! Healer, you need to keep that sw alive, geez, we need him!"
I see it going more like this, "sw why do you die so much we knew we should have taken the hr instead".
Without some strong inherent defense mechanism equivalent to the other classes, I think it is inevitable that sw will be seen as a liability more than an asset most runs. WITH some inherent effective defense mechanism equivalent to other classes, sw WILL shine. Otherwise, I strongly feel it will fail. And most players who do not have a character worth writing an entire guide around agree with me entirely.
Well, CD nerf ****s up both. And since it makes for the majority of Fury damage output, well, I infer the obvious.
Admittedly I haven't played preview but I don't see where you're bringing the "DPS Gods" from, given that if anything , the class's capabilities got worse (asides from hadar grasp CC which sounds nice)
Well. I don't hugely use TT because I tend to be a bit overly sparing with dailies given how fast they actually recharge, and with certain groups, unless I go ahead, the fight tends to be pretty much over by the time the spell+curse actually happens XD. (My favourite mob tactic tends to be Dreadtheft railgun - basically DT a nice juicy target then run around so as to line the most monsters into the beam. Usual move makeup is Harrowstorm, Soul Scorch (my favourite for high HP targets since no cooldown and nice stackable dot with curse consume), DT) But, damage dealt suffers proportionally compared to what I've seen fury builds do, unless the rest of the group sucks or gets killed, which is when it kinda shines.
The problem is when such overreaction comes from the fact that they did it to a class that doesn't have much else to go on. And... well, outdamaging a CW with a fury build isn't proof that all is well as much as the opposite would show things are screwed - besides I kinda doubt it was one of those Flames massive dot builds.
Eh. Now, I play damnation spec which asides from ****ing up TT wasn't hit that badly, mainly because where there's nothing even death doesn't take, and at least one of the new feats, if they make it work properly (AKA the stated half weapon damage) will be appreciated. In live, at present, it's fun PvE even though I can't say the damage output is impressive, but like, the way I stay alive is soulsparks, LS from puppet through that feat, and to a lesser extent my own LS when lazoring crowds. So, understandably, the talk about survivability being even worse than it presently is, combined with other changes, like supposed massive drop of benefits from stat bonuses is frankly making me unexcited for the future. And that's all PvE
As far as PvP, pretty much the only viable build there was got broken by the CD nerf and lifesteal change and its creator seems to have quit, which kinda sums up the state of things at the moment.
This power summons 2 spirits to fight for you, however they stare blankly and do nothing for roughly 5 seconds after being summoned, wasting 1/3rd of the time it should be doing damage.
Can it be improved so that the spirits start attacking immediately after being summoned?
Feedback: Soul Puppet
Is too squishy, it needs more hit points to live trough the new content. It doesn't manage to live longer than 4 seconds when fighting trough my dailies, not to mention how fast they die in dungeons. (1 hit KO), this is particularly problematic for Damnation SWs.
I will post more information when the preview goes back up, I'm going to run some ACT logs tonight.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
Arm chair QBing is fine and dandy, but when the QB on the field is describing why things are not as you interpreted them to be, directly to you, might want to give it a bit more credence. :cool:
Not trying to be snarky, just being honest bud!
Well, not like I took any offense. Just that, your reaction is fairly different from what I have seen from others, and what my sense tells me from how it plays on live now, and what the changelogs actually say. Looking forwards to your post, anyhow.
I have to second this and second it from new dungeon exp on preview.
PS. My new hardware came this evening...will be back in action soon.
Bug: Wrathful Souls
Wrathful souls does not grant the correct amount of hit points stolen from the target when my soul puppet deals damage.
The first picture is the amount of damage my soul puppet dealt, 'Wraith Claw' is my puppet attacking.
The second picture is the amount of HP my wrathful souls feat restored.
According to the 38k damage done by the puppet I should have been healed for 5800 (15%). The actual amount was 725.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
The total hit points for both the soul puppet and Immolation spirits (Daily power summon) should be increased accordingly with the new mod Total HP. The current situation being that they can get one shot by bigger monsters or simply die within 3 seconds of combat.
Here is recorded the total HP of my soul puppet, being roughly 25k. The weakest monster deals 3k-10k damage per hit in dread ring dailies. That means if the puppet gets hit by all 3 at once he's dead in 1 second. And we're speaking of the weakest monsters in dread ring, not the big ones. Case being the 'Thayan Servitors' that scream Neverwinter Fools
Here is the soul puppet total HP.
Here is the min and max damage of dread ring servitor.
I've also managed to estimate the HP of Immolation spirits summon, it should be 20-25k too. In this picture the spirit was close to death with 16k damage.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread