No. It should be a single target encounter such as flourish, not an AoE at-will. Else there won't be a reason to choose IV anymore.
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
edited February 2015
That would work rly for the favor of SM solely, IV has TR (threatening rush), but in PVE only TR advantage is marking, its quite a PvP tool, but only in term of closing distance. I think many ppl would not be happy that SM at-will would become a better copy of they TR, coz that what would happend with ur proposal implemented. Im aware that giving mark for passive or feat will make TR obsolete in pve, but i think many ppl would be happy to have a possibility to drop this at-will.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
No. It should be a single target encounter such as flourish, not an AoE at-will. Else there won't be a reason to choose IV anymore.
I think u just totaly messed somthing here. We r not speaking about WMS being and aoe or not as issue (and i personaly think WMS is doing great job as a aoe, and this should not be changed. from what this idea in first place? IV is better as pvp, SM is better pve...). We r searching for new marking possibility, coz its what restict gwfs right now...
I think u just totaly messed somthing here. We r not speaking about WMS being and aoe or not as issue (and i personaly think WMS is doing great job as a aoe, and this should not be changed. from what this idea in first place? IV is better as pvp, SM is better pve...). We r searching for new marking possibility, coz its what restict gwfs right now...
(Sin)cerely
Kain
I didn't mess anything here. I'm saying that WMS would be the worst choice for mark. Reasons:
1. AoE
2. At-will with no charges / cooldowns
3. Does great damage
Whereas TR has charges with 9s cooldown, glitches on uneven terrain and does super <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> damage. Its only advantages are aoe mark and glitchy gapclosing. Add mark to WMS and there will be no reason to choose IV at all. Simple logic.
I didn't mess anything here. I'm saying that WMS would be the worst choice for mark. Reasons:
1. AoE
2. At-will with no charges / cooldowns
3. Does great damage
Whereas TR has charges with 9s cooldown, glitches on uneven terrain and does super <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> damage. Its only advantages are aoe mark and glitchy gapclosing. Add mark to WMS and there will be no reason to choose IV at all. Simple logic.
PvP players would still go IV, because gapcloser. And tr has aoe mark
Why does WMS need mark? Why not just give WMS the same benefits AS mark? i.e. you deal 20% more dmg to the target AND it has CA against it for however long the debuff lasts?
Btw gtfo to discussion topic this will be cleaned out, didnt notice its the feedback topic
Paladin Master Race
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
edited February 2015
That why i said it should work with crits or something like that, to give both paragons a addictional mark source, i know it will have impact on IV, but still u r not choising IV for TR itself. TR is pvp tool with closing gapes and breaking CC ability (immobilizes). Beside that IV always was a bit worse in pve, prones from FLS were good, but in dps terms itself its nothing...
Speaking of, with incoming changes to GWF (as cursh mentioned), Destro IVs will also prefer combo sure + wicked and marking from crits. Even with crit having much lower chance to proc, it still will be workable.
Until devs wont twist this idea and give mark on crit to same useless feat like Steel Blitz or whatever.
Why does WMS need mark? Why not just give WMS the same benefits AS mark? i.e. you deal 20% more dmg to the target AND it has CA against it for however long the debuff lasts?
Done.
Well, kinda marks work for whole party, WMS has buff for gwf solely. So if gwf at some point want to replace gf/op (like sent lets hope will, if it will get incrased surivability) one buff on at-will, at will working wile only1 path, will do nothing.
Well, kinda marks work for whole party, WMS has buff for gwf solely. So if gwf at some point want to replace gf/op (like sent lets hope will, if it will get incrased surivability) one buff on at-will, at will working wile only1 path, will do nothing.
We dont want to leave IV behind.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
Well its like I said. Give WMS the same benefits as Mark. Done. It doesnt have to be mark, it can be its own thing.
Also the entire class needs a buff to increased survivability. Classes like Pally/DC/CW and even the HR will be able to self heal. Classes like TR can leave combat whenever they like by stealthing away. GFs can choose when to block and given the right setup can block for 20 seconds +
GWFs and SWs are the only classes that dont have any tools for survival. Not only is it because of Shift (sprint) being a not so great mechanic, but because we dont have a way to regenerate our HP. Im not saying give us heals, but we should be given MUCH more TEMP HP in unstoppable and the TEMP HP needs to last OUTSIDE unstoppable as well (NOT go away once it ends).
This way GWFs have a tool to help them survive longer. Right now they dont.
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
Well its like I said. Give WMS the same benefits as Mark. Done. It doesnt have to be mark, it can be its own thing.
Ok, it dont need to be mark, as long as it works similiar to mark. but still i think it will be giving many troubles and buggs, maybe double benefits in CA from u proposed tool and mark. Thats first, second, it will trow SM much ahead of IV, and as i have said, i dont want to brings troubles onto IVs. So if we want to solve this that way, we need to focus on encounter (as i have said NFS or mighty) or on wicked instead of WMS. Otherways IV will be left behind.
We are making some adjustments to GWF sustained throughput as well as remove some debuffs that were rather difficult to understand on the fly. Additionally the Swordmaster buffs will also affect Guardian Fighters. These buffs should help round out several powers that were underperforming and improve GWF damage overall, putting them in a more competitive place in longer fights.
Anyone else see the problem with this? GWFs are never around for "Longer Fights" because they are so squishy - especially with removal of Regen. This is not as apparent in PVE content but seen amplified ALOT in PVP. Targets blow you up so fast and there is no way for GWFs to eat that much damage or sustain themsevles over longer fights.
This is why it is SO important for GWFs to be given tools to help sustain us during those longer fights.
Self-healing is NOT the solution, higher/longer DR is not the solution either.
What IS the solution (I believe) is to REMOVE the Temp HP granted upon unstoppable activation and replace it with:
You now gain 4-5% Temp HP each time you are struck in unstoppable (can only happen once per second). The Temp HP gained will also no longer be removed when Unstoppable Ends.
Yep and thats why i keep saying DMG dosent matter at this point, If can't live long enough to do the dmg OR i have to take away from stats i need for the dmg and put them into def. stuff we.. diminished DMG anyway.
But at least they did a few things we do like
tnx
Its not even about that. Because you only have so much flexibility in stats. There are only so many defensive slots, so much gear you can get. Its not like we can take our offensive slots and make them defensive slits for more HP to live.
Its not a dichotomy of tanky versus dps. Its that the class has NO tools to survive for long durations. This is a single primary function of lack of sustainability.
While other classes have "regen-like" mechanics (DC/CW/Pally/HR etc) Other classes have "escape" mechanics (TR) other classes have massive DR/wall mechanics (GF). What does the GWF have? We can get 15% more DR for 4 seconds but only AFTER we have lost 25% of our life. We dont regen anything back, we dont get really any way to "Escape".
So once we eat that damage, whether we gain dps boost or not, we cannot survive in long duration fights. This forces you to rely on lifesteal - which works in PVE, however it is not sustainable in PVP. Which is why tests around this will not show you the whole truth.
This is not JUST a function of removing regen. Removing regen just amplifies the dire need to address this point. The classes that can self-heal or have some type of self heal will have a HUGE advantage over other classes.
What we need as a GWF is not self healing - that would make it OP and remove the need for a healer. What we need are Temp HP. Temp HP solves the problem because its temporary so it gives us a solid "buffer" of extra HP points to use, allowing us to stay in the fights longer without actually giving healing.
I dislike just flat out buffing the TEMP HP granted upon Unstoppable activation because in some scenarios itll be more than you need and in others it wont be enough. This is why I VERY MUCH like the 4-5% each time you are struck, meaning the more times you are attacked during unstoppable the more temp HP you generate.The ability to have that Temp HP extend past unstoppable ALSO alleviates our Base HP consumption between unstoppable pops. Meaning we can "sustain" ourselves for longer durations of time.
Great Weapon Fighter: Feats: Intimidation: This feat now deals 25/50/75/100/125% of your weapon damage (instead of scaling on your power). This damage is amplified by power. Intimidated targets now take 100/200/300/400/500% more threat from you (up from 10/20/30/40/50%).
Great Weapon Fighter: Feats: Sentinel's Aegis: Now also passively increases threat generation by 250%
mmm ... ONLY 125% .. ?!? This damage is amplified by power ? .. power will be nerfed ..
WHY POWER ?!?
REWORK :
Great Weapon Fighter: Feats: Intimidation: This feat now deals 350% of your weapon damage (up to 125%) [Instead scaling on your Power] .. THIS DAMAGE IS AMPLIFIED BY POWER , COMBAT ADVANTAGE , CRIT.SEV , STR , MARK ...
mmm ... ONLY 125% .. ?!? This damage is amplified by power ? .. power will be nerfed ..
WHY POWER ?!?
REWORK :
Great Weapon Fighter: Feats: Intimidation: This feat now deals 350% of your weapon damage (up to 125%) [Instead scaling on your Power] .. THIS DAMAGE IS AMPLIFIED BY POWER , COMBAT ADVANTAGE , CRIT.SEV , STR , MARK ...
Id rather have this be a DoT effect.
So 100% weapon damage PER SECOND for 10 seconds.
Guys lets focus on the MAJOR issue of the class. Intimidation was already going to be worthless in PVP due to Vorpal and Terror reducing power. So its a moot point. The BIGGEST issue with the class is the lack of "self-sustainability" in both PVE and PVP.
With in combat regen gone, how is a tank (Sentinel) supposed to tank? He cant deal enough damage for lifesteal to heal and cant self heal at all.
In PVP its worse since lifesteal is HALVED and its too random to count on. Other classes have tools, we dont.
We NEED a way to be viable and "self-sustainable" in situations. I am not asking for "Chaotic Growth" - Like CWs have. I am MERELY asking for some form of extra Temp HP during unstoppable that scales based on how much "fire" you are taking.
If it isnt something LIKE this itll either be too good or too bad. This is why I really think the Temp HP per second of being attacked generating ~5% TempHP per second will drastically help the class. Given that the Temp HP SHOULD last after unstop ends, this gives us a way to "self sustain" or "hold out" if you will for a healer.
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
mmm ... ONLY 125% .. ?!? This damage is amplified by power ? .. power will be nerfed ..
WHY POWER ?!?
REWORK :
Great Weapon Fighter: Feats: Intimidation: This feat now deals 350% of your weapon damage (up to 125%) [Instead scaling on your Power] .. THIS DAMAGE IS AMPLIFIED BY POWER , COMBAT ADVANTAGE , CRIT.SEV , STR , MARK ...
Normaly i would use some harsh words here, but i wont, i want this topic to live on. Let me just say, that intimidation was a mistake since it came out how it is now. 350% weapon dmg? for real?
To be fair i will say i totaly dislike brainless sent build as it is now, sent supposed to be our tanking tree, not burst dmg tree... what do u want to make out of it? 150k crits in pvp? its what this would like...
and we were pumping even 14k power, not 10k just for intimidation sake, which results were 30k hits in pvp....
Take into account what base dmg weaps will have now, and rethink it again, then again and again.
Intimidation is supposed be our threat generator, and it will work great, ofc prolly all BiS pvpers will drop this tree, but can we be surprised? for those who want to be for some reason a tank (we have 2 classes now just for this, but meh) and run with 2h sword will get they chance.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
With in combat regen gone, how is a tank (Sentinel) supposed to tank? He cant deal enough damage for lifesteal to heal and cant self heal at all.
Well look at that...
Maybe now u will need to bring a healing dc with u? Did u thought about that option? I know its weird, but maybe little AS under ur feets, maybe u wont be able to grab 10 pulls, pop unstopable and hold rmb endlessy to self heal? Maybe we wont be a hero on lvl of god anymore? Maybe u will be forced to comunicate with another player? u know like in true DnD, u will need to choose what is each player role, and stick to it. But that only dream, PWE/dev will break finnaly im afraid, and we will get buffed to god lvl again.
Simply, u asumption is going in wrong direction. I want to get ur old good "hulk smash, nobody cant smash hulk" option.
Another topic already suggested, that current t70 dungs r **** easy anyway. So what the problem? No joke here, i just dont get it. I dont feel any lack in surivability in current "end game". And if we will get true end game dung, i want it to break us, to smash us, to bring doom upon us, to drop us into the darkest cave of sadnes, and then after 100 tryes, 100 days we will finnaly take our revange on this dung and finish it. We will find the right strategy, we will find treasures behind it cold walls, and we will find that little piece of sweet cake, called preasure, like back then, when we have finished CN first time, without cheats, withot exploits. Having only 10k gs.
Dreams, dreams.
Anyway, now it looks kinda nice in my head, we will acctualy need to get party of 1 true tank, 1 healer and 3dps. Or maybe 1 tank, 1healer, 2 supporters and 1 dps? I like that idea, i never liked 5 man dps runs, even if those r just sadly easy to preform.
Tho i still agee gwf needs some more DR, but only sent, so he can become true boy.. i mean tank, tank.
And also more CA sources.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited February 2015
Would love for the destroyer/instigator to be improved upon before Mod 6 launches cause we'll be waiting for Mod 7 for them to become more viable again if they don't improve them now. Instigator needs some serious improvements overall.
So whenever we want to que for PVP we have to bring a DC to follow us around? Hmmmm lets see..
I can solo Q on my TR just fine.
Solo Q on my GF just fine.
Solo Q on my DC just fine.
DC/Pally/CW/HR all have self healing.
TR has stealth to leave combat
GF has 20+ seconds of block.
My post was not written for PVE but PVP.
Even in PVE Pally and GF will FAR out tank a GWF Sent who has no control over damage incoming.
In PVP we will yet again be the 2nd to worse class with pretty much ANY class easily about to out 1v1 us, I mean heck most classes can just facetank a GWF even, all you really need to do is dodge 1 or 2 times and watch our HP whittle away while other classes self heal.
its not brainless at all, but indeed i agree with you.
first of all it should have utility that brings to the team something useful.
CaGI buff with 30% flat damage should apply to your allies too.
Daring Shout that gives DR should apply to your allies too.
that ofcourse they should be in your range.
the thing is the damage was going out of control.
so to be changed we needed to scale from a different source rather than power.
so weapon damage would be the best takin in mind there are different new comers that go play sentinel paragon and they are not BIS to make it viable, it lacked threat too.
so i personally wanted this change , me and other people, i wanted to get rid of the one shot stuff because i had in mind people will have at most 50k HP, they wont get over it.
so i requested 350% out of weapon damage, and keep all his multipliers, and Powerfull Challenge needed to be changed.
what gentlemantcrush done is rather bad, he is makin sentinel non viable.
because
125% out of 2000 or 2500 weapon damage wont cut it out.
so either
175% out of 2000 weapon damage
or
keep 125% but bring the weapon damage up to 3000.
i dont know the max weapon damage that will be on PTR. so crush might be doing it good and i am lacking infos.
the multipliers should remain : combat advantage/ damage bonus / crit severity and other sourcers, because there will be already a lack in damage from the Power new stat curve.
but who knows on what kind of formula is multiplied by damage bonus.
another thing it's those 2 are the only source of damage the sentinel has.
so keep the 125% out of weapon damage , but multipliers should be the same power/crit sev/ mark / str etc.
but lower the cooldowns on the encounters by atleast 3 seconds.
it already got a nerfed from stat curves.
so what we have for now on sentinel tree?
only Living wall the new feat that has any utility that brings up to your allies, but in rest? how can you call it a Defender class?
this changes are perfect for sentinel.
-a base damage of intimidation of 3000-3500. with same multipliers
-2-3 seconds shorter cooldowns on cagi/daringshout
-cagi/daringshout should help your allies.
-remove Powerfull challenge.
that was all .
now either way you look it, gwf can stack anything else than power, so he can go full HP.
as in matter of surviability, as Damage Resistance won't cut it out, the temporary Hitpoints should get a huge buff.
like ayourx said, either a fix temp hp like its right now, but more, or either based on your missing HP just like Bloodcrystal artifact gives.
about Focused Destroyer(destroyer class feat).
why dont you change the Destroyer and give 1 stack of destroyer per each enemy you face, rather than attackin them and get the stacks up that you loose them in 4 seconds, so is better to get 1 stack when you are in combat, depending on how many enemies you are faceing up to 3.
what if you make it so when you are facing 1 enemy, you have 1 stack, and when you are facing 1vs2 , you get 2 stacks , up to 3 stacks.
this way it will be far more better than building 3 stacks that you are losing them rather quickly.
the penalty on atwills while in unstopable finally got removed, this is good.
hidden daggers is quite a good skill , but on fast movements, its rather hard of controling where you hit, as the encounter deals poorly damage, the melee 40% damage is rather good, so a fix on its animation should be done, cause this should deal damage where my POV my camera is facing, so if my Character is looking forward and my camera looks backwards, when i use blitz, , it should attack behind me, its doing that, but when i move my camera fast , it doesnt do that.
i am still wanting to see reaping strike as a tank atwill like i described it on previous post, like changin the stance into a defensive stance, blocking 80% of the incoming damage, it should keep the same charge system, you cannot attack while you have it charged, but only block, you can be attacked from behind, the movement should be similar to a GF holding his shield up.
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
edited February 2015
Well. u dont "tank" in pvp. And i have agreed with u, that sent should get surivability, only this path, Inst should be reworked to be true pvp path, with average dps and bunch of stunes/prones. Thats my idea. Also ayroux i farly agree with u idea about getting temphp with evry hit we get, still, it should only be in sent feats, and something similiar in inst. Destro should be like he is now, pure dps role, while another tank is taking tank.
Lets just dont make a unstopable stonefall, or mod7 will bring us even worse nerf.
Acctualy that solution looks like dream solution. i wish Crush would take intrest into those ideas.
Also blue, ur idea with reaping strike is also great imo. I realy hope they will take this into account and give gwf a ability which will incrase his tankines and decrase his dmg. Tho threat is mostly coming from dmg we deal, so only standing there like a piece of rock wont do much.
And yes, i see no reason for intimidation being not affected by things liek crit and so go, but it also should not hit like a truck, it should be a tool that will focus adds on us, 500% threat rate with some dmg will do.
After all u dont want to be intimidation our only weap in pvp? right? ;]
Well. u dont "tank" in pvp. And i have agreed with u, that sent should get surivability, only this path, Inst should be reworked to be true pvp path, with average dps and bunch of stunes/prones. Thats my idea. Also ayroux i farly agree with u idea about getting temphp with evry hit we get, still, it should only be in sent feats, and something similiar in inst. Destro should be like he is now, pure dps role, while another tank is taking tank.
Lets just dont make a unstopable stonefall, or mod7 will bring us even worse nerf.
Acctualy that solution looks like dream solution. i wish Crush would take intrest into those ideas.
Also blue, ur idea with reaping strike is also great imo. I realy hope they will take this into account and give gwf a ability which will incrase his tankines and decrase his dmg. Tho threat is mostly coming from dmg we deal, so only standing there like a piece of rock wont do much.
And yes, i see no reason for intimidation being not affected by things liek crit and so go, but it also should not hit like a truck, it should be a tool that will focus adds on us, 500% threat rate with some dmg will do.
After all u dont want to be intimidation our only weap in pvp? right? ;]
(Sin)cerely
Kain
While I agree that Destroyer should be the DPS role and Sent the "tank role" His point is that almost every other class can build full DPS if they want and still have more survivability than us. Its a bit silly when a cloth wearing mage is tankier than an armored fighter.
We need general changes to our overall classes sustain/survivability to help us in PvP instances, where we have a short time of CC immune and a sprint that charges slower than any other classes stamina for their dodges (ayroux tested TR Vs GWF stamina gain, and I tested my clerics vs GWF in both cases even though the GWF's had higher stamina regen %, the Cleric and TR regen considerably faster, plus the GWF stamina regen seems to have a delay of 2-3 seconds before it even starts.) and some extra DR that instantly is obsolete due to Piercing damage all over the place.
I still personally think piercing damage should not of been added, or should simply ignore deflect and some DR instead of just making some 5000-10000 stat points in defence/deflect useless
Saying that Destroyer shouldnt get any survivability makes the spec useless, because there is no point in dealing huge amounts of damage if you're as sturdy as a wet tissue. that being said, we'd still be doing less than Mages / TR and be much squishier. With a general survivability buff in the form of TEMP HP / Regen, it means we arent nessecarially a huge damage sink, but we have the sustain to continue fighting while injured and survive off a temporary boost instead of just being melted by one encounter + one daily.
The temp HP on every hit idea is based off a feat from D&D 4e. and I feel should replace the current T1 sentinel feat Unstoppable recovery. That way it is in the sentinel tree, but it is available to any GWF build. If you feel that it makes it silly that every GWF then "Needs" a Sentinel feat to be viable, replace Grit with it instead so its a heroic feat.
zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
edited February 2015
I rly have no surivability troubles in our current pve content. As a squishy destro, and destro is not and should be not a pvp path, if u want premades dont go SM destro.
While I agree that Destroyer should be the DPS role and Sent the "tank role" His point is that almost every other class can build full DPS if they want and still have more survivability than us. Its a bit silly when a cloth wearing mage is tankier than an armored fighter.
The temp HP on every hit idea is based off a feat from D&D 4e. and I feel should replace the current T1 sentinel feat Unstoppable recovery. That way it is in the sentinel tree, but it is available to any GWF build. If you feel that it makes it silly that every GWF then "Needs" a Sentinel feat to be viable, replace Grit with it instead so its a heroic feat.
The KEY to all this though is letting the Temp HP earned during unstoppable STAY even once Unstoppable ends. This allows us to use those Temp HP towards gaining back determination.
I like this as well. Either one works Frankly: OPTIONS: 1) Replace Temp HP unstoppable with INSTEAD: Gain 5% Temp HP each time you are struck in unstoppable. (Can only happen once per second)
- OR-
2) Replace Unstoppable Recovery with with "Battlerager Vigor" - Gain 1%/2%/3%/4%/5% Temp HP each time you are struck in unstoppable. (Cna only happen once per second)
-OR-
3) Replace "GRIT" with "Battlerager Vigor" - Gain 2%/3%/4% Temp HP each time you are struck in unstoppable. (Can only happen once per second)
The reason Grit is lower is because it doesnt cannibalize the other sources of healing or Temp HP> IF you cannibalize those, it NEEDS to be greater.
I actually PREFER #3 since it would give viability to being a human race again. Seems for GWF your forced into Dragonborn or Halfling due to the +2/+2 stats where Human only gets +2 but 3 more feats. As a human now you could give up +2 of a stat to have those extra 3 points.
The fact that Grit (Now Battlerager Vigor) is at the end of the heroic feats gives it a nice tradeoff between DPS and tankiness. Since it competes with other DPS feats such as: Steely Defense, Devastating Critical, and Weapon Mastery.
I like this as well. Either one works Frankly: OPTIONS: 1) Replace Temp HP unstoppable with INSTEAD: Gain 5% Temp HP each time you are struck in unstoppable. (Can only happen once per second)
- OR-
2) Replace Unstoppable Recovery with with "Battlerager Vigor" - Gain 1%/2%/3%/4%/5% Temp HP each time you are struck in unstoppable. (Cna only happen once per second)
-OR-
3) Replace "GRIT" with "Battlerager Vigor" - Gain 2%/3%/4% Temp HP each time you are struck in unstoppable. (Can only happen once per second)
Heck if any ONE of these seems too strong you could even make a "balance" between all of them and make changes to all the below:
1) Temp HP from Unstoppable now gives 10-20% (up from 8-16%)
2) Unstoppable recovery now also gives 5% Temp HP as well as its 5% heal.
3) Grit is changed to "Battlerager Vigor" but at 1/2/3% Temp HP each time your STRUCK in unstoppable.
And ofcourse ALL this Temp HP needs to last AFTER unstoppable ends as well. So it actually helps us outside unstoppable.
Comments
No. It should be a single target encounter such as flourish, not an AoE at-will. Else there won't be a reason to choose IV anymore.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
I think u just totaly messed somthing here. We r not speaking about WMS being and aoe or not as issue (and i personaly think WMS is doing great job as a aoe, and this should not be changed. from what this idea in first place? IV is better as pvp, SM is better pve...). We r searching for new marking possibility, coz its what restict gwfs right now...
(Sin)cerely
Kain
I didn't mess anything here. I'm saying that WMS would be the worst choice for mark. Reasons:
1. AoE
2. At-will with no charges / cooldowns
3. Does great damage
Whereas TR has charges with 9s cooldown, glitches on uneven terrain and does super <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> damage. Its only advantages are aoe mark and glitchy gapclosing. Add mark to WMS and there will be no reason to choose IV at all. Simple logic.
PvP players would still go IV, because gapcloser. And tr has aoe mark
Why does WMS need mark? Why not just give WMS the same benefits AS mark? i.e. you deal 20% more dmg to the target AND it has CA against it for however long the debuff lasts?
Done.
Speaking of, with incoming changes to GWF (as cursh mentioned), Destro IVs will also prefer combo sure + wicked and marking from crits. Even with crit having much lower chance to proc, it still will be workable.
Until devs wont twist this idea and give mark on crit to same useless feat like Steel Blitz or whatever.
I understood this as "WMS shoudl be single target, liek flourish is", LoL.
My bad.
Still, not single target encounter, if we want to add mark ability to one more encounter, at lest let it be aoe one, NSF or Might Leap.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
Well, kinda marks work for whole party, WMS has buff for gwf solely. So if gwf at some point want to replace gf/op (like sent lets hope will, if it will get incrased surivability) one buff on at-will, at will working wile only1 path, will do nothing.
We dont want to leave IV behind.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
Well its like I said. Give WMS the same benefits as Mark. Done. It doesnt have to be mark, it can be its own thing.
Also the entire class needs a buff to increased survivability. Classes like Pally/DC/CW and even the HR will be able to self heal. Classes like TR can leave combat whenever they like by stealthing away. GFs can choose when to block and given the right setup can block for 20 seconds +
GWFs and SWs are the only classes that dont have any tools for survival. Not only is it because of Shift (sprint) being a not so great mechanic, but because we dont have a way to regenerate our HP. Im not saying give us heals, but we should be given MUCH more TEMP HP in unstoppable and the TEMP HP needs to last OUTSIDE unstoppable as well (NOT go away once it ends).
This way GWFs have a tool to help them survive longer. Right now they dont.
Ok, it dont need to be mark, as long as it works similiar to mark. but still i think it will be giving many troubles and buggs, maybe double benefits in CA from u proposed tool and mark. Thats first, second, it will trow SM much ahead of IV, and as i have said, i dont want to brings troubles onto IVs. So if we want to solve this that way, we need to focus on encounter (as i have said NFS or mighty) or on wicked instead of WMS. Otherways IV will be left behind.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
Anyone else see the problem with this? GWFs are never around for "Longer Fights" because they are so squishy - especially with removal of Regen. This is not as apparent in PVE content but seen amplified ALOT in PVP. Targets blow you up so fast and there is no way for GWFs to eat that much damage or sustain themsevles over longer fights.
This is why it is SO important for GWFs to be given tools to help sustain us during those longer fights.
Self-healing is NOT the solution, higher/longer DR is not the solution either.
What IS the solution (I believe) is to REMOVE the Temp HP granted upon unstoppable activation and replace it with:
You now gain 4-5% Temp HP each time you are struck in unstoppable (can only happen once per second). The Temp HP gained will also no longer be removed when Unstoppable Ends.
Its not even about that. Because you only have so much flexibility in stats. There are only so many defensive slots, so much gear you can get. Its not like we can take our offensive slots and make them defensive slits for more HP to live.
Its not a dichotomy of tanky versus dps. Its that the class has NO tools to survive for long durations. This is a single primary function of lack of sustainability.
While other classes have "regen-like" mechanics (DC/CW/Pally/HR etc) Other classes have "escape" mechanics (TR) other classes have massive DR/wall mechanics (GF). What does the GWF have? We can get 15% more DR for 4 seconds but only AFTER we have lost 25% of our life. We dont regen anything back, we dont get really any way to "Escape".
So once we eat that damage, whether we gain dps boost or not, we cannot survive in long duration fights. This forces you to rely on lifesteal - which works in PVE, however it is not sustainable in PVP. Which is why tests around this will not show you the whole truth.
This is not JUST a function of removing regen. Removing regen just amplifies the dire need to address this point. The classes that can self-heal or have some type of self heal will have a HUGE advantage over other classes.
What we need as a GWF is not self healing - that would make it OP and remove the need for a healer. What we need are Temp HP. Temp HP solves the problem because its temporary so it gives us a solid "buffer" of extra HP points to use, allowing us to stay in the fights longer without actually giving healing.
I dislike just flat out buffing the TEMP HP granted upon Unstoppable activation because in some scenarios itll be more than you need and in others it wont be enough. This is why I VERY MUCH like the 4-5% each time you are struck, meaning the more times you are attacked during unstoppable the more temp HP you generate.The ability to have that Temp HP extend past unstoppable ALSO alleviates our Base HP consumption between unstoppable pops. Meaning we can "sustain" ourselves for longer durations of time.
mmm ... ONLY 125% .. ?!? This damage is amplified by power ? .. power will be nerfed ..
WHY POWER ?!?
REWORK :
Great Weapon Fighter: Feats: Intimidation: This feat now deals 350% of your weapon damage (up to 125%) [Instead scaling on your Power] .. THIS DAMAGE IS AMPLIFIED BY POWER , COMBAT ADVANTAGE , CRIT.SEV , STR , MARK ...
Id rather have this be a DoT effect.
So 100% weapon damage PER SECOND for 10 seconds.
Guys lets focus on the MAJOR issue of the class. Intimidation was already going to be worthless in PVP due to Vorpal and Terror reducing power. So its a moot point. The BIGGEST issue with the class is the lack of "self-sustainability" in both PVE and PVP.
With in combat regen gone, how is a tank (Sentinel) supposed to tank? He cant deal enough damage for lifesteal to heal and cant self heal at all.
In PVP its worse since lifesteal is HALVED and its too random to count on. Other classes have tools, we dont.
We NEED a way to be viable and "self-sustainable" in situations. I am not asking for "Chaotic Growth" - Like CWs have. I am MERELY asking for some form of extra Temp HP during unstoppable that scales based on how much "fire" you are taking.
If it isnt something LIKE this itll either be too good or too bad. This is why I really think the Temp HP per second of being attacked generating ~5% TempHP per second will drastically help the class. Given that the Temp HP SHOULD last after unstop ends, this gives us a way to "self sustain" or "hold out" if you will for a healer.
Normaly i would use some harsh words here, but i wont, i want this topic to live on. Let me just say, that intimidation was a mistake since it came out how it is now. 350% weapon dmg? for real?
To be fair i will say i totaly dislike brainless sent build as it is now, sent supposed to be our tanking tree, not burst dmg tree... what do u want to make out of it? 150k crits in pvp? its what this would like...
and we were pumping even 14k power, not 10k just for intimidation sake, which results were 30k hits in pvp....
Take into account what base dmg weaps will have now, and rethink it again, then again and again.
Intimidation is supposed be our threat generator, and it will work great, ofc prolly all BiS pvpers will drop this tree, but can we be surprised? for those who want to be for some reason a tank (we have 2 classes now just for this, but meh) and run with 2h sword will get they chance.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
Well look at that...
Maybe now u will need to bring a healing dc with u? Did u thought about that option? I know its weird, but maybe little AS under ur feets, maybe u wont be able to grab 10 pulls, pop unstopable and hold rmb endlessy to self heal? Maybe we wont be a hero on lvl of god anymore? Maybe u will be forced to comunicate with another player? u know like in true DnD, u will need to choose what is each player role, and stick to it. But that only dream, PWE/dev will break finnaly im afraid, and we will get buffed to god lvl again.
Simply, u asumption is going in wrong direction. I want to get ur old good "hulk smash, nobody cant smash hulk" option.
Another topic already suggested, that current t70 dungs r **** easy anyway. So what the problem? No joke here, i just dont get it. I dont feel any lack in surivability in current "end game". And if we will get true end game dung, i want it to break us, to smash us, to bring doom upon us, to drop us into the darkest cave of sadnes, and then after 100 tryes, 100 days we will finnaly take our revange on this dung and finish it. We will find the right strategy, we will find treasures behind it cold walls, and we will find that little piece of sweet cake, called preasure, like back then, when we have finished CN first time, without cheats, withot exploits. Having only 10k gs.
Dreams, dreams.
Anyway, now it looks kinda nice in my head, we will acctualy need to get party of 1 true tank, 1 healer and 3dps. Or maybe 1 tank, 1healer, 2 supporters and 1 dps? I like that idea, i never liked 5 man dps runs, even if those r just sadly easy to preform.
Tho i still agee gwf needs some more DR, but only sent, so he can become true boy.. i mean tank, tank.
And also more CA sources.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
So whenever we want to que for PVP we have to bring a DC to follow us around? Hmmmm lets see..
I can solo Q on my TR just fine.
Solo Q on my GF just fine.
Solo Q on my DC just fine.
DC/Pally/CW/HR all have self healing.
TR has stealth to leave combat
GF has 20+ seconds of block.
My post was not written for PVE but PVP.
Even in PVE Pally and GF will FAR out tank a GWF Sent who has no control over damage incoming.
In PVP we will yet again be the 2nd to worse class with pretty much ANY class easily about to out 1v1 us, I mean heck most classes can just facetank a GWF even, all you really need to do is dodge 1 or 2 times and watch our HP whittle away while other classes self heal.
first of all it should have utility that brings to the team something useful.
CaGI buff with 30% flat damage should apply to your allies too.
Daring Shout that gives DR should apply to your allies too.
that ofcourse they should be in your range.
the thing is the damage was going out of control.
so to be changed we needed to scale from a different source rather than power.
so weapon damage would be the best takin in mind there are different new comers that go play sentinel paragon and they are not BIS to make it viable, it lacked threat too.
so i personally wanted this change , me and other people, i wanted to get rid of the one shot stuff because i had in mind people will have at most 50k HP, they wont get over it.
so i requested 350% out of weapon damage, and keep all his multipliers, and Powerfull Challenge needed to be changed.
what gentlemantcrush done is rather bad, he is makin sentinel non viable.
because
125% out of 2000 or 2500 weapon damage wont cut it out.
so either
175% out of 2000 weapon damage
or
keep 125% but bring the weapon damage up to 3000.
i dont know the max weapon damage that will be on PTR. so crush might be doing it good and i am lacking infos.
the multipliers should remain : combat advantage/ damage bonus / crit severity and other sourcers, because there will be already a lack in damage from the Power new stat curve.
but who knows on what kind of formula is multiplied by damage bonus.
another thing it's those 2 are the only source of damage the sentinel has.
so keep the 125% out of weapon damage , but multipliers should be the same power/crit sev/ mark / str etc.
but lower the cooldowns on the encounters by atleast 3 seconds.
it already got a nerfed from stat curves.
so what we have for now on sentinel tree?
only Living wall the new feat that has any utility that brings up to your allies, but in rest? how can you call it a Defender class?
this changes are perfect for sentinel.
-a base damage of intimidation of 3000-3500. with same multipliers
-2-3 seconds shorter cooldowns on cagi/daringshout
-cagi/daringshout should help your allies.
-remove Powerfull challenge.
that was all .
now either way you look it, gwf can stack anything else than power, so he can go full HP.
as in matter of surviability, as Damage Resistance won't cut it out, the temporary Hitpoints should get a huge buff.
like ayourx said, either a fix temp hp like its right now, but more, or either based on your missing HP just like Bloodcrystal artifact gives.
about Focused Destroyer(destroyer class feat).
why dont you change the Destroyer and give 1 stack of destroyer per each enemy you face, rather than attackin them and get the stacks up that you loose them in 4 seconds, so is better to get 1 stack when you are in combat, depending on how many enemies you are faceing up to 3.
what if you make it so when you are facing 1 enemy, you have 1 stack, and when you are facing 1vs2 , you get 2 stacks , up to 3 stacks.
this way it will be far more better than building 3 stacks that you are losing them rather quickly.
the penalty on atwills while in unstopable finally got removed, this is good.
hidden daggers is quite a good skill , but on fast movements, its rather hard of controling where you hit, as the encounter deals poorly damage, the melee 40% damage is rather good, so a fix on its animation should be done, cause this should deal damage where my POV my camera is facing, so if my Character is looking forward and my camera looks backwards, when i use blitz, , it should attack behind me, its doing that, but when i move my camera fast , it doesnt do that.
i am still wanting to see reaping strike as a tank atwill like i described it on previous post, like changin the stance into a defensive stance, blocking 80% of the incoming damage, it should keep the same charge system, you cannot attack while you have it charged, but only block, you can be attacked from behind, the movement should be similar to a GF holding his shield up.
Lets just dont make a unstopable stonefall, or mod7 will bring us even worse nerf.
Acctualy that solution looks like dream solution. i wish Crush would take intrest into those ideas.
Also blue, ur idea with reaping strike is also great imo. I realy hope they will take this into account and give gwf a ability which will incrase his tankines and decrase his dmg. Tho threat is mostly coming from dmg we deal, so only standing there like a piece of rock wont do much.
And yes, i see no reason for intimidation being not affected by things liek crit and so go, but it also should not hit like a truck, it should be a tool that will focus adds on us, 500% threat rate with some dmg will do.
After all u dont want to be intimidation our only weap in pvp? right? ;]
(Sin)cerely
Kain
While I agree that Destroyer should be the DPS role and Sent the "tank role" His point is that almost every other class can build full DPS if they want and still have more survivability than us. Its a bit silly when a cloth wearing mage is tankier than an armored fighter.
We need general changes to our overall classes sustain/survivability to help us in PvP instances, where we have a short time of CC immune and a sprint that charges slower than any other classes stamina for their dodges (ayroux tested TR Vs GWF stamina gain, and I tested my clerics vs GWF in both cases even though the GWF's had higher stamina regen %, the Cleric and TR regen considerably faster, plus the GWF stamina regen seems to have a delay of 2-3 seconds before it even starts.) and some extra DR that instantly is obsolete due to Piercing damage all over the place.
I still personally think piercing damage should not of been added, or should simply ignore deflect and some DR instead of just making some 5000-10000 stat points in defence/deflect useless
Saying that Destroyer shouldnt get any survivability makes the spec useless, because there is no point in dealing huge amounts of damage if you're as sturdy as a wet tissue. that being said, we'd still be doing less than Mages / TR and be much squishier. With a general survivability buff in the form of TEMP HP / Regen, it means we arent nessecarially a huge damage sink, but we have the sustain to continue fighting while injured and survive off a temporary boost instead of just being melted by one encounter + one daily.
The temp HP on every hit idea is based off a feat from D&D 4e. and I feel should replace the current T1 sentinel feat Unstoppable recovery. That way it is in the sentinel tree, but it is available to any GWF build. If you feel that it makes it silly that every GWF then "Needs" a Sentinel feat to be viable, replace Grit with it instead so its a heroic feat.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
(Sin)cerely
Kain
The KEY to all this though is letting the Temp HP earned during unstoppable STAY even once Unstoppable ends. This allows us to use those Temp HP towards gaining back determination.
I like this as well. Either one works Frankly: OPTIONS:
1) Replace Temp HP unstoppable with INSTEAD: Gain 5% Temp HP each time you are struck in unstoppable. (Can only happen once per second)
- OR-
2) Replace Unstoppable Recovery with with "Battlerager Vigor" - Gain 1%/2%/3%/4%/5% Temp HP each time you are struck in unstoppable. (Cna only happen once per second)
-OR-
3) Replace "GRIT" with "Battlerager Vigor" - Gain 2%/3%/4% Temp HP each time you are struck in unstoppable. (Can only happen once per second)
The reason Grit is lower is because it doesnt cannibalize the other sources of healing or Temp HP> IF you cannibalize those, it NEEDS to be greater.
I actually PREFER #3 since it would give viability to being a human race again. Seems for GWF your forced into Dragonborn or Halfling due to the +2/+2 stats where Human only gets +2 but 3 more feats. As a human now you could give up +2 of a stat to have those extra 3 points.
The fact that Grit (Now Battlerager Vigor) is at the end of the heroic feats gives it a nice tradeoff between DPS and tankiness. Since it competes with other DPS feats such as: Steely Defense, Devastating Critical, and Weapon Mastery.
I CHOOSE #3 TBH.
Heck if any ONE of these seems too strong you could even make a "balance" between all of them and make changes to all the below:
1) Temp HP from Unstoppable now gives 10-20% (up from 8-16%)
2) Unstoppable recovery now also gives 5% Temp HP as well as its 5% heal.
3) Grit is changed to "Battlerager Vigor" but at 1/2/3% Temp HP each time your STRUCK in unstoppable.
And ofcourse ALL this Temp HP needs to last AFTER unstoppable ends as well. So it actually helps us outside unstoppable.