I cannot for several reasons. The first of which is that revealing underlying math that controls the game (a la stat curves) would get me in pretty serious trouble. Second reason is that they are substantially more complex to better allow us to tune them on a level by level basis. Each stat curve has additional variables that let us tune or scale how good the curves are for particular level brackets or even particular levels. This gives us a level of control that we did not have with the old flat curves where any change would affect the whole game and made tweaking them far more difficult. With the new curves we can selectively turn a lot more dials and get stats performing where we want them an individual level basis. To accurately graph these curves I would need a better way to communicate 3 and 4 dimensional graphs in visual form. As pretty as 3D graphs are, they aren't very useful for much beyond looking at overall trends
.
he just asked
how much POWER/Crit/Recovery/Deflect/Defense etc. do you need to get 1% of its value. Not the entire graph or anythin else.
this is a bad idea that at lvl 60 when you get to 61 you drop 10% of each stats and so on you lose -2% of each stats for each level, and then you get more stats just to cover this?
this is awful .
We will eventually be releasing gear that gets you back there, but not at launch of module 6. One of our primary goals with the new curves was give us better control over an end game progression and a longer time scale with which to deliver meaningful upgrades and content. Your gear now has far more room to grow than it ever did before in the old system, without becoming wildly more complicated. It is also worth keeping in mind that your raw power (damage dealt/healed or effective health as the case may be) are going up pretty drastically in these 10 levels as a factor of how steeply weapon damage has increased as well as how we are granting HP going forward. While your raw crit chance is going down, this is not a relative measure of how powerful you are any more because everything else that feeds into critical chance is changing as well. Overall you *are* getting much stronger, and will have far more room to grow and improve that power.
Thanks for your response yet again! While that all sounds pretty promising and reasonable I'm still somewhat skeptical with my main being a CW revolving all around a high crit rate (hi Storm Spell). But yeah - we shall see. (-;
Firstly, Stat Curves - The curves appear far more punitive to higher amounts of stat because they are. When you enter level 61 you move into the new curves, which are scaled for the new gear and higher values of stat that you can get on them. This means that each piece of new equipment you pick up is a pretty big power swing. This is also to give us more room for the end game to grow stat and equipment wise. There was no reasonable way to let players maintain the degree of power they had withe the old diminishing returns (1~60) and still create enough gear tiers where interesting stat choices could be made, and so we have opted to make the stat curves require more stat overall. This is far less obvious at 61 and will steadily increase until you hit 70. Monsters have been tuned to reflect these changes however. We wanted to be sure not to drastically impact the gameplay from 1~60 that players already have experience with so we opted to make these new curves exclusive to level 61+ and will be tuning how sharp that first drop off is as time goes on, but for now it appears to be having roughly the desired effect.
Life Steal and AoE - Given the posts I have seen thus far, the Life Steal changes are having basically the desired effect (with some tuning still to be done to the Life Steal chance) of bringing it more in line with other stats as far as efficacy. With one exception. Currently Life Steal just gets linearly better as you affect more targets and it really shouldn't. Given that we will be exploring some options in regards to tuning life steal on area of effect powers, possibly by reducing the severity or chance to activate on AoE powers to match our Single Target/AoE desired break point.
Classes/Specs that Relied on Life Steal - We will be monitoring classes and specs that relied heavily on life steal (namely Temptation Warlocks and their capstone feat) will likely be getting some form of overhaul to fit with the new Life Steal paradigm.
Feedback: Stat Curve Changes
Thanks for clarifying that this is indeed an intentional change. That helps me know how to move forward in evaluating the changes that are being made.
I am firmly in favor of decreasing the effectiveness of classes across the board. The content is simply too easy at this point. Most DPS classes can solo Castle Never and just about every dungeon can be run through with ease and virtually no threat of death. So a re-working of the stat curves, feats, and gear is necessary, in my opinion.
That said, I find the specific way that these stat curves have been implemented to be very problematic. I did the math and crossing from level 60 to level 61 cost me the equivalent of 6411 in gear score. Basically, my 22k CW instantaneously morphed into a 15.6k CW in effectiveness. And the curves are so harsh that in order to regain the effectiveness of my 22k CW I would need to come up another ~18k in gear score. Reading what others have observed, I get the impression that the stat curves continue to get more and more harsh as level 70 is approached. The drop-off is so steep that there for is no possible equipment that can compensate for the loss of gear score leveling imposes upon you.
Now again, I am not opposed to this, in theory. If characters are too powerful (and they are) then they should be brought back to a reasonable level. That does not bother me. But I am opposed to a game which structures character progression in such a way that a characters peak effectiveness will occur at one brief moment and then will never be attained again. A game where characters completely fall off a cliff in effectiveness once they age too far. With the stat curves the way they are currently every group composed of level 60 characters will have a far, far easier time clearing content than will a group of level 70 characters. Gaining levels with these stat curves is a severe handicap. The pop-up for achieving level 61 should read "Congratulations you have reached level 61...and an evil wizard has just placed a curse on you! You have just lost 50% of your damage resistance, 70% of your lifesteal, 55% of your Recovery, 45% of your Deflect, and 45% of your Crit. Basically, you have just taken an arrow to the knee and are no longer fit for adventuring!"
A level 70 character should be superior to a level 60 character. I should aspire to achieve level 70. Instead I fear it. I don't want it. I'd rather stay at 60. It's so bad that I'm sure people will be clamoring for you to put "experience decrease potions" in the zen store if this ever goes live. Current player snobbery centers around gear score. You see people forming parties of 16k+ GS or 18k+ GS. If this goes live I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see people forming "no one over level 65" parties.
Just to be clear: Will we be able to get to the same percentages at 70 that we have now at 60? Or will we be able to get to the same percentages at 70 if we sacrifice other stats?
If not, this is a balancing nightmare, because all feats giving or affecting certain stats or % must be tuned to the new system. HR has already been mentioned, but other classes are affected as well. CW has tons of abilities that rely on crit, GWF gets power from other stats, SW LifeSteal, list goes on.
No offense, but I've not seen changes to any existing feats or powers. Can we assume this is in the works?
Firstly, Stat Curves - The curves appear far more punitive to higher amounts of stat because they are. When you enter level 61 you move into the new curves, which are scaled for the new gear and higher values of stat that you can get on them. This means that each piece of new equipment you pick up is a pretty big power swing. This is also to give us more room for the end game to grow stat and equipment wise. There was no reasonable way to let players maintain the degree of power they had withe the old diminishing returns (1~60) and still create enough gear tiers where interesting stat choices could be made, and so we have opted to make the stat curves require more stat overall. This is far less obvious at 61 and will steadily increase until you hit 70. Monsters have been tuned to reflect these changes however. We wanted to be sure not to drastically impact the gameplay from 1~60 that players already have experience with so we opted to make these new curves exclusive to level 61+ and will be tuning how sharp that first drop off is as time goes on, but for now it appears to be having roughly the desired effect.
Feedback: Stat Curve Changes
I dislike having two sets of stat curves (i.e. 1 to 60 and after 61+). I know you said you wanted to not drastically impact the gameplay from level 1 to 60 but I wonder if you guys should not reconsider applying the new stat curves to the entire game including the pre 61. This should be far less problematic for you in the long run and it would also allow us players to progress in a meaningful way instead of being forced to accept that all of what we are doing makes no difference at all since it will change once we hit 61. I don't think many (if any) of us will mind since one of our biggest complaints was that the game was too easy. It will also correct this realization that we get weaker in ways with the proposed system after leveling beyond 61. I cannot stress enough that I think it would be wise to reconsider doing it this way.
Thanks for clarifying that this is indeed an intentional change. That helps me know how to move forward in evaluating the changes that are being made.
With the stat curves the way they are currently every group composed of level 60 characters will have a far, far easier time clearing content than will a group of level 70 characters. Gaining levels with these stat curves is a severe handicap. The pop-up for achieving level 61 should read "Congratulations you have reached level 61...and an evil wizard has just placed a curse on you! You have just lost 50% of your damage resistance, 70% of your lifesteal, 55% of your Recovery, 45% of your Deflect, and 45% of your Crit. Basically, you have just taken an arrow to the knee and are no longer fit for adventuring!"
A level 70 character should be superior to a level 60 character. I should aspire to achieve level 70. Instead I fear it. I don't want it. I'd rather stay at 60. It's so bad that I'm sure people will be clamoring for you to put "experience decrease potions" in the zen store if this ever goes live. Current player snobbery centers around gear score. You see people forming parties of 16k+ GS or 18k+ GS. If this goes live I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see people forming "no one over level 65" parties.
Yup, I highly doubt all the increments in HP and weapon dmg you have planned right now won't outweigh the colossal drop of actual returns from stats.
u also need to count in Armor and Accesory kits stats they ill be terribly low at this rate
They're introducing new kits at rank 25 professions that are +200 stat points each.
Also, to compensate for reduced stat efficacy, instead of slotting rank 5s and saying "good enough!", you need to seriously consider those rank 12s we've been promised, with all the associated costs.
so rather than killing all clases why dont you change the armor and defences of all mobs and boss to get them tuffer
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matiagronxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 251Arc User
edited January 2015
There is clearly a mathematician tampering with numbers there but he doesnt play the game AT ALL. You cant introduce a new level cap and REDUCE stats..there is no way to do this in DnD RPG MMO, not on this earth at least. You change things without living or playing the game, its crystal clear. Please stop it and listen to FREE advice that is given all over the forums.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited January 2015
To clarify, I'm not claiming it's not, only that people who actually have felt (PvE-)viable until this point at lower gear scores and without going to rank 10s and legendaries or anywhere close to them are perhaps not going to be able to continue in that vein. Which means the sudden need for a whoooooole lot of AD even if you had been pretty happy previously with being one of Neverwinter's have-nots.
so rather than killing all clases why dont you change the armor and defences of all mobs and boss to get them tuffer
because it is impossible
at existing diminishing returns, there are too many stat points. my 19.5k gs GWF is softcapped on ALL stats, so only thing i can add is more power, the only way out is reducing effect of stats, at existing diminishing returns difference between 4k Crit and 15k crit is a few %, same for all other stats that are affected by diminishing returns. High gs ppl had only 2 stats left to add - Power and HP, rest are capped(or can be)
with these changes we can stack other stats than power/hp, you can actually chose to go for lower base damage and more crit/recovery, or go for flat damage and get less crits. there are much more build options instead of the standard - 3.5~4k crit max, 3~3.5k recovery max, 24% arp and dump the rest into power build https://www.desmos.com/calculator/3dqpvhuavj here you can see how old diminishing returns go flat at certain point
this change was really needed, it THE best change they have done to this game
u ill need even more power with m6 cause there is drop in dmg from power aswell
so what ? at least i will be able to add the stats i want, and wont be forced to run gear with less total stats because im capped at certain stats and the better gear gives just those stats
I cannot for several reasons. The first of which is that revealing underlying math that controls the game (a la stat curves) would get me in pretty serious trouble. Second reason is that they are substantially more complex to better allow us to tune them on a level by level basis. Each stat curve has additional variables that let us tune or scale how good the curves are for particular level brackets or even particular levels. This gives us a level of control that we did not have with the old flat curves where any change would affect the whole game and made tweaking them far more difficult. With the new curves we can selectively turn a lot more dials and get stats performing where we want them an individual level basis. To accurately graph these curves I would need a better way to communicate 3 and 4 dimensional graphs in visual form. As pretty as 3D graphs are, they aren't very useful for much beyond looking at overall trends
The tradeoff for a black box with a lot of dials is that your bugs will never be uncovered and your playerbase will always be ill-informed.
While your raw crit chance is going down, this is not a relative measure of how powerful you are any more because everything else that feeds into critical chance is changing as well. Overall you *are* getting much stronger, and will have far more room to grow and improve that power.
well you technically got to use big numbers. This can show you overall growth/decrease measurement. Even thought I do support changing on curves and making them bracketed I do have concerns about some points
1. Since you don't realese gear at once with mod - there may be gap from old 60 player with top gear on old curves
to new 61-62 player & no gear & new curves.
2. I have to share concerns about crit going down. Cause some classes have raw +% crit chance due to feets or some combinations. CW or SW or TR (100% crit in stealth) as example. This may lead to huge balance problems where by using crit gives you overall bigger advantage on other classes and could possibly provide huge spikes of damage. Just a point to keep an eye on to prevent cry and unbalancing again.
3. As you mentioned new LS requires huge rework for LS classes when our HP pool is smaller then LS we randomly get.
And temptation SW in particular - having random LS pretty much makes this path "unreliable" even in that bad place it is now after nerfs in mod 5.
well you technically got to use big numbers. This can show you overall growth/decrease measurement. Even thought I do support changing on curves and making them bracketed I do have concerns about some points
1. Since you don't realese gear at once with mod - there may be gap from old 60 player with top gear on old curves
to new 61-62 player & no gear & new curves.
2. I have to share concerns about crit going down. Cause some classes have raw +% crit chance due to feets or some combinations. CW or SW or TR (100% crit in stealth) as example. This may lead to huge balance problems where by using crit gives you overall bigger advantage on other classes and could possibly provide huge spikes of damage. Just a point to keep an eye on to prevent cry and unbalancing again.
3. As you mentioned new LS requires huge rework for LS classes when our HP pool is smaller then LS we randomly get.
And temptation SW in particular - having random LS pretty much makes this path "unreliable" even in that bad place it is now after nerfs in mod 5.
This is a more detailed description of what I think as well. ALL feats, powers, boons, armor kits, ability score and racial bonuses have to be reworked to fit the new stat curves.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited January 2015
Mr Crush ...
The adjusted Curve For movement rate seems the most harsh and the least deserved..
On test Server 2000 movement is giving a 3% boost to run speed ?
surely that cant be working as intended....
So in mod 6 even if you have 5 dark 10s in utility slot you will lose 80% of the moment rate for 2000 invested
compared to mod 5's 15% run speed for 2000 invested ??....
P.S most people only have rank 6/7 darks in utility slots
There is very little gear in the game that grants moment bonuses at all or potions ....
Classes with slow movement rates and no feats or powers to increase it will be most effected
It will be harder to get out of the way from a red circle or get to an ally as fast or capture the point as fast in pvp .. and generally slower to get around ...
Mod 5 moment rate already is the hardest to increase compared to any other stats
with the most assets to invest to get the least return ....
Having thought about the whole stat thing for quite some more time now makes me wonder - why not get rid of the whole "stat" thing and just opt for a path that was successful in many other games before: As opposed to granting "423 Critical Strike/Armor Penetration/younameit" just add a straight bonus like "+1.2% critical chance/+2% Damage Resistance Ignored/+4% Max HP/...." saves you the whole ermagherdwhatdowedoaboutthestatcurves-hassle and us - the players - from reverse engineering numbers and fiddling around with an obscenely intransparent gear progression system. But well. I dare say it's far too late for that now.
thing i hate the most is the whole new lv 70 it was the worst thing in wow every year a new lv cap new gear and new class
that being said i understand the hard caps needed to be addressed but they could have been agusted to more of a stright line rather than a curve and then up grade the npcs so they scaled better
i do want to know whats going to become of our artifact gear is lv 60 gs where its going to stay or is there going to be new gear and if there is going to be gear to replace them how does it stack up to the artifact gear, do we need to continue pumping rp into it of should we just junk it
Something that needs to be nipped in the bud right now: If a dev says that they cannot release certain information due to internal policies, their word is final on the matter and continuing to ask for such information will result in your post being removed.
To ask for that information is not considered "asking for transparency" but asking for the release of internal development information and it's not productive.
Do not respond to or reply to this notice as such is not allowed per Rules of Conduct, but PM a member of the Community Team with your concerns.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Comments
I want to highlight this because it's true. With the new curves all boons except Power/ArPen/HP took a severe hit.
he just asked
how much POWER/Crit/Recovery/Deflect/Defense etc. do you need to get 1% of its value. Not the entire graph or anythin else.
this is a bad idea that at lvl 60 when you get to 61 you drop 10% of each stats and so on you lose -2% of each stats for each level, and then you get more stats just to cover this?
this is awful .
Thanks for your response yet again! While that all sounds pretty promising and reasonable I'm still somewhat skeptical with my main being a CW revolving all around a high crit rate (hi Storm Spell). But yeah - we shall see. (-;
Also - RP, Arti Gear, ...? ;-)
Feedback: Stat Curve Changes
Thanks for clarifying that this is indeed an intentional change. That helps me know how to move forward in evaluating the changes that are being made.
I am firmly in favor of decreasing the effectiveness of classes across the board. The content is simply too easy at this point. Most DPS classes can solo Castle Never and just about every dungeon can be run through with ease and virtually no threat of death. So a re-working of the stat curves, feats, and gear is necessary, in my opinion.
That said, I find the specific way that these stat curves have been implemented to be very problematic. I did the math and crossing from level 60 to level 61 cost me the equivalent of 6411 in gear score. Basically, my 22k CW instantaneously morphed into a 15.6k CW in effectiveness. And the curves are so harsh that in order to regain the effectiveness of my 22k CW I would need to come up another ~18k in gear score. Reading what others have observed, I get the impression that the stat curves continue to get more and more harsh as level 70 is approached. The drop-off is so steep that there for is no possible equipment that can compensate for the loss of gear score leveling imposes upon you.
Now again, I am not opposed to this, in theory. If characters are too powerful (and they are) then they should be brought back to a reasonable level. That does not bother me. But I am opposed to a game which structures character progression in such a way that a characters peak effectiveness will occur at one brief moment and then will never be attained again. A game where characters completely fall off a cliff in effectiveness once they age too far. With the stat curves the way they are currently every group composed of level 60 characters will have a far, far easier time clearing content than will a group of level 70 characters. Gaining levels with these stat curves is a severe handicap. The pop-up for achieving level 61 should read "Congratulations you have reached level 61...and an evil wizard has just placed a curse on you! You have just lost 50% of your damage resistance, 70% of your lifesteal, 55% of your Recovery, 45% of your Deflect, and 45% of your Crit. Basically, you have just taken an arrow to the knee and are no longer fit for adventuring!"
A level 70 character should be superior to a level 60 character. I should aspire to achieve level 70. Instead I fear it. I don't want it. I'd rather stay at 60. It's so bad that I'm sure people will be clamoring for you to put "experience decrease potions" in the zen store if this ever goes live. Current player snobbery centers around gear score. You see people forming parties of 16k+ GS or 18k+ GS. If this goes live I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see people forming "no one over level 65" parties.
If not, this is a balancing nightmare, because all feats giving or affecting certain stats or % must be tuned to the new system. HR has already been mentioned, but other classes are affected as well. CW has tons of abilities that rely on crit, GWF gets power from other stats, SW LifeSteal, list goes on.
No offense, but I've not seen changes to any existing feats or powers. Can we assume this is in the works?
Feedback: Stat Curve Changes
I dislike having two sets of stat curves (i.e. 1 to 60 and after 61+). I know you said you wanted to not drastically impact the gameplay from level 1 to 60 but I wonder if you guys should not reconsider applying the new stat curves to the entire game including the pre 61. This should be far less problematic for you in the long run and it would also allow us players to progress in a meaningful way instead of being forced to accept that all of what we are doing makes no difference at all since it will change once we hit 61. I don't think many (if any) of us will mind since one of our biggest complaints was that the game was too easy. It will also correct this realization that we get weaker in ways with the proposed system after leveling beyond 61. I cannot stress enough that I think it would be wise to reconsider doing it this way.
Yup, I highly doubt all the increments in HP and weapon dmg you have planned right now won't outweigh the colossal drop of actual returns from stats.
Absolutely.
They're introducing new kits at rank 25 professions that are +200 stat points each.
Also, to compensate for reduced stat efficacy, instead of slotting rank 5s and saying "good enough!", you need to seriously consider those rank 12s we've been promised, with all the associated costs.
I mean, I guess.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
because it is impossible
at existing diminishing returns, there are too many stat points. my 19.5k gs GWF is softcapped on ALL stats, so only thing i can add is more power, the only way out is reducing effect of stats, at existing diminishing returns difference between 4k Crit and 15k crit is a few %, same for all other stats that are affected by diminishing returns. High gs ppl had only 2 stats left to add - Power and HP, rest are capped(or can be)
with these changes we can stack other stats than power/hp, you can actually chose to go for lower base damage and more crit/recovery, or go for flat damage and get less crits. there are much more build options instead of the standard - 3.5~4k crit max, 3~3.5k recovery max, 24% arp and dump the rest into power build
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/3dqpvhuavj here you can see how old diminishing returns go flat at certain point
this change was really needed, it THE best change they have done to this game
so what ? at least i will be able to add the stats i want, and wont be forced to run gear with less total stats because im capped at certain stats and the better gear gives just those stats
The tradeoff for a black box with a lot of dials is that your bugs will never be uncovered and your playerbase will always be ill-informed.
well you technically got to use big numbers. This can show you overall growth/decrease measurement. Even thought I do support changing on curves and making them bracketed I do have concerns about some points
1. Since you don't realese gear at once with mod - there may be gap from old 60 player with top gear on old curves
to new 61-62 player & no gear & new curves.
2. I have to share concerns about crit going down. Cause some classes have raw +% crit chance due to feets or some combinations. CW or SW or TR (100% crit in stealth) as example. This may lead to huge balance problems where by using crit gives you overall bigger advantage on other classes and could possibly provide huge spikes of damage. Just a point to keep an eye on to prevent cry and unbalancing again.
3. As you mentioned new LS requires huge rework for LS classes when our HP pool is smaller then LS we randomly get.
And temptation SW in particular - having random LS pretty much makes this path "unreliable" even in that bad place it is now after nerfs in mod 5.
Make Critical severity have a base of 50% on all classes.
This is a more detailed description of what I think as well. ALL feats, powers, boons, armor kits, ability score and racial bonuses have to be reworked to fit the new stat curves.
The adjusted Curve For movement rate seems the most harsh and the least deserved..
On test Server 2000 movement is giving a 3% boost to run speed ?
surely that cant be working as intended....
So in mod 6 even if you have 5 dark 10s in utility slot you will lose 80% of the moment rate for 2000 invested
compared to mod 5's 15% run speed for 2000 invested ??....
P.S most people only have rank 6/7 darks in utility slots
There is very little gear in the game that grants moment bonuses at all or potions ....
Classes with slow movement rates and no feats or powers to increase it will be most effected
It will be harder to get out of the way from a red circle or get to an ally as fast or capture the point as fast in pvp .. and generally slower to get around ...
Mod 5 moment rate already is the hardest to increase compared to any other stats
with the most assets to invest to get the least return ....
that being said i understand the hard caps needed to be addressed but they could have been agusted to more of a stright line rather than a curve and then up grade the npcs so they scaled better
i do want to know whats going to become of our artifact gear is lv 60 gs where its going to stay or is there going to be new gear and if there is going to be gear to replace them how does it stack up to the artifact gear, do we need to continue pumping rp into it of should we just junk it
Something that needs to be nipped in the bud right now: If a dev says that they cannot release certain information due to internal policies, their word is final on the matter and continuing to ask for such information will result in your post being removed.
To ask for that information is not considered "asking for transparency" but asking for the release of internal development information and it's not productive.
Do not respond to or reply to this notice as such is not allowed per Rules of Conduct, but PM a member of the Community Team with your concerns.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com