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Official Feedback Thread: Stat Changes

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    ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    kalina311 wrote: »
    Mr Crush ...

    The adjusted Curve For movement rate seems the most harsh and the least deserved..
    On test Server 2000 movement is giving a 3% boost to run speed ?
    .

    This is what also worries me. I think it a LITTLE silly that a rank 10 enchant wouldnt even give you 1% more movement..... Maybe you need a rank 12 ;)

    But in all seriousness. I get why some of the stats are the way they are, but if rank 10s are to only be ~400 stat points more. It would seem a little silly to me that any stat would require MORE than 400 for 1%.....
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    denvalddenvald Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 702 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    A couple things guys.
    /snip
    Life Steal and AoE - Given the posts I have seen thus far, the Life Steal changes are having basically the desired effect (with some tuning still to be done to the Life Steal chance) of bringing it more in line with other stats as far as efficacy. With one exception. Currently Life Steal just gets linearly better as you affect more targets and it really shouldn't. Given that we will be exploring some options in regards to tuning life steal on area of effect powers, possibly by reducing the severity or chance to activate on AoE powers to match our Single Target/AoE desired break point.

    Classes/Specs that Relied on Life Steal - We will be monitoring classes and specs that relied heavily on life steal (namely Temptation Warlocks and their capstone feat) will likely be getting some form of overhaul to fit with the new Life Steal paradigm.

    Feedback: Life Steal and AoE
    How about making AoE life steal severity 1/3rd or 1/4th of the severity it is for single target powers? Ofc then you would be left with AoE DoTs which probably counts as single target powers once they start hitting but maybe you can work around that.

    Feedback: Classes/Specs with life steal
    I'm pretty glad about that, I was worried about my temptation warlock the instant you mentioned life steal nerf. Can we expect these changes for warlock temptation to be available for mod 6 or will I be playing Fury for a while?

    Feedback: Genereal Changes, stat curves and lv 70 chars
    I'm overall pretty happy about the tone down, otherwise things would have gone beyond ridiculous IMO. I can't imagine running a 60% crit lol. I also think Movement curves needs to be revisited, it currently isn't worth having dark enchants for movement speed. Endless consumption, last boon of dread ring might need to be revisited too.

    Side note: I really hope something is done about the refinement system for mod 6
    I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
    It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
    You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.

    More threads by me / Click on it B)
    My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
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    mh0rammh0ram Member Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Feedback / Concerns: I'm a bit concerned with the current gear dropping off so quickly. I'm an all 10's HR, archery spec. Leveling to 61 I lose 10% Crit chance, 9% DR, and 8% Lifesteal Chance. That's just leveling to 61. I'll continue to provide feedback as I level up, I used a 5,000 zen XP booster to make the process go more quickly.

    I compared a fully "twinked" out rank 4 (So 5 Rank 10 Radiants) leveling up to Rank 5. The drop off isn't as steep there as it is in going from 60-61. Something seriously needs looked at there.
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    rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    can we at least leave unchanged the old curves for movement speed, lifesteal and regen?
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    umscheumsche Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 461 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    wixxgs1cht wrote: »
    Having thought about the whole stat thing for quite some more time now makes me wonder - why not get rid of the whole "stat" thing and just opt for a path that was successful in many other games before: As opposed to granting "423 Critical Strike/Armor Penetration/younameit" just add a straight bonus like "+1.2% critical chance/+2% Damage Resistance Ignored/+4% Max HP/...." saves you the whole ermagherdwhatdowedoaboutthestatcurves-hassle and us - the players - from reverse engineering numbers and fiddling around with an obscenely intransparent gear progression system. But well. I dare say it's far too late for that now.

    I've seen that in another MMO, and it doesn't work.

    It allows little improvement possibilities and when the game ages, it leads to ridicul stats like everyone having 100% crit chance all the time and 400% crit severity.
    When I discovered this system intermediate stat system, I found it very clever.
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    wixxgs1chtwixxgs1cht Member Posts: 430 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    umsche wrote: »
    I've seen that in another MMO, and it doesn't work.

    It allows little improvement possibilities and when the game ages, it leads to ridicul stats like everyone having 100% crit chance all the time and 400% crit severity.
    When I discovered this system intermediate stat system, I found it very clever.

    I've seen that in another MMO, and it worked out well.

    Anyways, nobody hinders you from not using linear stat increments from module to module. That way you could do essentially the same but have transparency for all users. For example: T1: +1% crit chance, T2: +1.2% crit chance, T3: +1.3%, T4 +1.35% and so on. Essentially the same but it's easier to tweak and grasp thanks to enhanced transparency. I don't see how this would result in ridiculous stats like you mentioned.

    But again, this was just an idea that came up which however will never be implemented given how long NW is around already.
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    norcaine1990norcaine1990 Member Posts: 93
    edited January 2015
    Feedback: Classess/Specs based on lifesteal
    I'm gonna be honest, I'm worried about Fury locks in mod 6. Their only defence is offence and with the lifesteal rework and massive randomness in lifesteal procs, I feel like Fury SW can be seriously hampered. We don't have crowd control CW does, we don't have tankiness GF/GWF/HR/OP does, we don't have heals DC/OP does and we don't have stealth TR does. The only way to prevail in solo content was a heavy reliance on lifesteal as SW lacks CC. With lifesteal being unreliable source of our survivability, there's something that has to be done to improve SWs ability to not lie dead while doing dailies, not to mention surviving harder content.

    Also, I believe that lifesteal rework is the time you should rething cooldowns on healing potions.
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    mh0rammh0ram Member Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Feedback: Classess/Specs based on lifesteal
    I'm gonna be honest, I'm worried about Fury locks in mod 6. Their only defence is offence and with the lifesteal rework and massive randomness in lifesteal procs, I feel like Fury SW can be seriously hampered. We don't have crowd control CW does, we don't have tankiness GF/GWF/HR/OP does, we don't have heals DC/OP does and we don't have stealth TR does. The only way to prevail in solo content was a heavy reliance on lifesteal as SW lacks CC. With lifesteal being unreliable source of our survivability, there's something that has to be done to improve SWs ability to not lie dead while doing dailies, not to mention surviving harder content.

    Also, I believe that lifesteal rework is the time you should rething cooldowns on healing potions.

    I disagree. HR is only tanky if built that way. If you were to go for straight DPS you'd die just like an SW. Oh, we're not allowed to disagree here are we...
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    a097832846a097832846 Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Feedback: Relative value of Defense, Deflect, and HP under new stat formulae

    The changes to the scaling of Defense and Deflect mean that the relative value of HP as a defensive stat increases even more. It is already the best stat to stack for defense on live in all but extreme edge cases, and this change will make it more so. Radiant enchantments are currently the only ones worth considering for offense and defense slots due to the superior returns of power and HP vs alternative stats, which is reflected in their price.

    Example: My control wizard on live has 784 deflect, 1197 defense, and 26109 HP. The next 100 points of stat invested for Deflect and defense give a survivability return of .6% and 1.39% respectively. Adding 400 HP gives a return of 1.53% survivability and continues to be be superior to defense for another 3000 HP.

    The same character on test at 70 (based on what we know of the linear gains in defense) should continue investing in HP until 150,000 HP before considering investing in defense further, and it is probable that there will never be a point in which deflect makes any sense to consider.

    One possible solution would be to offer a 1:1 ratio of HP to other stats on gear and enchants. The returns of deflect are still vastly inferior to other choices, so the curve for that may need to be adjusted as with feedback in other threads about movement.
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    deathbeezdeathbeez Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 789 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Has it even been considered to nerf just the lifesteal on ranged units?

    They don't really face the same threat from 30 feet back as you do purposely agroing 20 mobs, going toe-to-toe. Why nerf all the same?

    I've invested tons of time, AD, and real-life $ on adding life-steal to my GF, including a lifedrinker.
    I'm waiting to cast final judgement till I can access the test server.

    But the way it sounds, I'm going to leave. I can't accept redo-ing almost a year's worth of work and $.

    Alot of DC's are DPS clerics, and pets don't have survivable AI. Killing regen too, makes the GF completely dependent a DC. Not like we already weren't since epic content of last mod.

    Why do tanks have to bare the brunt of the nerf-hammer (again) to change content difficulty? We're already an endangered species.
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    ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    deathbeez wrote: »
    I've invested tons of time, AD, and real-life $ on adding life-steal to my GF, including a lifedrinker.
    I'm waiting to cast final judgement till I can access the test server.

    Why would the LS change affect your lifedrinker enchant?
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
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    blazious11blazious11 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 331 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    Why would the LS change affect your lifedrinker enchant?

    It will affect only in a positive manner, it will be a viable option, (and more expensive i guess). Seems like crit gets a nerf - so does vorpal, it makes the other enchantments much more desirable.
    My story is truly a grand tale! Of course, any story about me is going to be grand simply by virtue of the main character.
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    nickitysplitnickitysplit Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    warpet wrote: »
    rayrdan wrote: »
    Lifesteal:
    the problem is hardly solved.
    single target classes no longer will want a single point of lifesteal.
    cw is still the one that can go full hp every 5 seconds.

    and cws are reason for life steel nerf and in the end it dont impact them at all since they have multi hit encounter and huge target caps i think cws should have reduced effectiveness of lifesteel in some way

    I hope that's a joke seriously....i have 9% LS atm, so around basic level. STILL have to chug pots like there's no tomorrow, STILL die to some encounters (last one was cult prison in WoD). Not everyone is 17k+ gs ya know, and those of us that aren't? royally screwed by the new LS. The only time i ever heal to full health mid-combat without pots, is when my capstone procs chaotic growth, or maybe people forgot about that + endless consumption and just decided to blame lifesteal eh....
    - Carpe diem -
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    duhbreothadhduhbreothadh Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    a097832846 wrote: »
    Feedback: Relative value of Defense, Deflect, and HP under new stat formulae

    The changes to the scaling of Defense and Deflect mean that the relative value of HP as a defensive stat increases even more. It is already the best stat to stack for defense on live in all but extreme edge cases, and this change will make it more so. Radiant enchantments are currently the only ones worth considering for offense and defense slots due to the superior returns of power and HP vs alternative stats, which is reflected in their price.

    Example: My control wizard on live has 784 deflect, 1197 defense, and 26109 HP. The next 100 points of stat invested for Deflect and defense give a survivability return of .6% and 1.39% respectively. Adding 400 HP gives a return of 1.53% survivability and continues to be be superior to defense for another 3000 HP.

    The same character on test at 70 (based on what we know of the linear gains in defense) should continue investing in HP until 150,000 HP before considering investing in defense further, and it is probable that there will never be a point in which deflect makes any sense to consider.

    One possible solution would be to offer a 1:1 ratio of HP to other stats on gear and enchants. The returns of deflect are still vastly inferior to other choices, so the curve for that may need to be adjusted as with feedback in other threads about movement.

    This ^^ occurred to me too with the added dimension of Armour Penetration in PvP. Arpen seems to scale at 70 very similar to how it does on live at 60, while defence now has much harsher return on investment. This kind of makes defence a dead stat in pvp unless I'm missing something here since it will be possible to void a large percent of the targets damage resistance with a comparatively low investment in arpen.
    Azran Graves, lvl 70 SW | Lochavar, CW | Cain, TR | Panthe, HR | Karis Copperleaf, DC
    Axios Guild Officer,
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    ryugasiriusryugasirius Member Posts: 996 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Firstly, Stat Curves - The curves appear far more punitive to higher amounts of stat because they are. When you enter level 61 you move into the new curves, which are scaled for the new gear and higher values of stat that you can get on them. This means that each piece of new equipment you pick up is a pretty big power swing. This is also to give us more room for the end game to grow stat and equipment wise. There was no reasonable way to let players maintain the degree of power they had withe the old diminishing returns (1~60) and still create enough gear tiers where interesting stat choices could be made, and so we have opted to make the stat curves require more stat overall. This is far less obvious at 61 and will steadily increase until you hit 70.

    This doesn't really appear to make sense, unless every post-60 item (including every piece of equipment and every boon) is reworked with much higher stats (in the range of 3x-5x), including T2, T2.5, Black Ice and Draconic stuff, and all boons (a boon adding 200 to a stat seems meaningless at level 70).

    Classes/Specs that Relied on Life Steal - We will be monitoring classes and specs that relied heavily on life steal (namely Temptation Warlocks and their capstone feat) will likely be getting some form of overhaul to fit with the new Life Steal paradigm.

    TR/Scoundrel also relies heavily on LS, please check that one too!
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    katbozejziemikatbozejziemi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 856 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I hope that's a joke seriously....i have 9% LS atm, so around basic level. STILL have to chug pots like there's no tomorrow, STILL die to some encounters (last one was cult prison in WoD). Not everyone is 17k+ gs ya know, and those of us that aren't? royally screwed by the new LS. The only time i ever heal to full health mid-combat without pots, is when my capstone procs chaotic growth, or maybe people forgot about that + endless consumption and just decided to blame lifesteal eh....
    Sorry, but if you have 9% LS with endless consumption as a CW and have problems not dying then you either need to rethink your play style or your build.
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    arakk00arakk00 Member Posts: 166 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Question/Feedback: Life Steal and Temptation Warlocks
    How are you going to fix Temptation's capstone feat before you put this on Live? You're removing their ability to heal viably whatsoever by subjecting them to a RNG that favors true AOE (Control Wizards) and makes the healing available to them difficult to control and patchy! As things stand now? If you need burst healing, you blow a high-damage encounter. If you need sustained healing while you tap on some adds, you drop a DoT. With a 15% chance to proc lifesteal, this doesn't work and the capstone of the

    Temptation tree needs to branch off from Lifesteal to directly heal a flat percentage of damage dealt- PLUS a small percentage of lifesteal, to keep the stat helpful. If these changes are made, of course- LOOK AT THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY HATE for these changes. If anything, nerf AOE spells to grant reduced lifesteal on secondary targets. You have two trees who sacrifice things for the reliability of lifesteal as it is now (stealth rogues and Temptation warlocks both need it the way it is to reliably do their jobs. It's not fair to take that away!)
    A <Friendly Dragon>!
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    schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Feedback: I really like those stat changes at lvl 70 its more about gear and good build .
    Then stack up legendary stuff + rank 10-12 enchants . No more P2W issue .
    At 70 its feel like rank 10 enchants are a smal addon smal bonus nothing else i think its really cool.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
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    rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Feedback: I really like those stat changes at lvl 70 its more about gear and good build .
    Then stack up legendary stuff + rank 10-12 enchants . No more P2W issue .
    At 70 its feel like rank 10 enchants are a smal addon smal bonus nothing else i think its really cool.

    there are literally no reasons to have enchants regardless the rank xD
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    schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    rayrdan wrote: »
    there are literally no reasons to have enchants regardless the rank xD

    Now enchant can be a small addon .
    Or you can focus on one stat crit power etc etc, to gain bigger boost 6-7k stat .
    I think this is a good idea a great move from devs .
    So you can have 12 k crit stat and 60% crit rate nice but you will not have 12 k power so p. vorpal will not be the top enchant in the game only if you spec for it.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
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    asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Feedback: I really like those stat changes at lvl 70 its more about gear and good build .
    Then stack up legendary stuff + rank 10-12 enchants . No more P2W issue .
    At 70 its feel like rank 10 enchants are a smal addon smal bonus nothing else i think its really cool.

    You know, that artefact equipment will get a initial stat raise from lvl 60 to lvl 90 and on top of that, there will be the grind to lvl them even more.

    Add legendary companions with 15% of their Stats as bonus (if it works, they will give you at max equip 3000+ stats) and you will have a AD/RP sinkhole for 10+ millions.

    This is no equilizer, but the gap will grow more. Ppl will just stack power, armor pen and HP while crit etc. will have to come from the build itself.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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    rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Now enchant can be a small addon .
    Or you can focus on one stat crit power etc etc, to gain bigger boost 6-7k stat .
    I think this is a good idea a great move from devs .

    a full rank 10 azure toon has 3-4% more critical chance than a toon without enchants at all. I dont know how this can be "a great idea"
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    asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    rayrdan wrote: »
    a full rank 10 azure toon has 3-4% more critical chance than a toon without enchants at all. I dont know how this can be "a great idea"

    It would be a good idea, if you could change gear to the new stat curve. Thing is, I wont spent 3,5+ RP to change a leg artefact that boosts dmg for the one that gives crit. If I could drop, for example, my CWs int belt into a charisma belt for insta leg. artefact, like with artefacts, it would be another thing. Respec to renegade and you will have 30%+ crit from stats and boons.

    With the current stat curves all enchants besides radiant and dark are not worth to slot.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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    schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    You can have 37 % Crit chance as CW(rene) w/o any azur enchant . In mod 6
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
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    loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Radiants remain much too strong. HP got upgraded even more and unless you get heavy utility from other stats, 400 Power for 1% damage will be vastly superior to what other enchants offer in an offensive slot once you've hit the new ArPen cap. So it's not really progress in terms of bringing the enchants on par.

    Also as others have noted, DR is now a wasted stat in PVP, because it's so easy to stack ArPen.
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    schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    loboguild wrote: »
    Radiants remain much too strong. HP got upgraded even more and unless you get heavy utility from other stats, 400 Power for 1% damage will be vastly superior to what other enchants offer in an offensive slot once you've hit the new ArPen cap. So it's not really progress in terms of bringing the enchants on par.

    Also as others have noted, DR is now a wasted stat in PVP, because it's so easy to stack ArPen.

    W/o LS and regen somthing must be buffed .
    Hp is much more desire stat all other stuff are addon.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
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    loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    You can have 37 % Crit chance as CW(rene) w/o any azur enchant . In mod 6

    The problem is the new ratio between stuff that gives flat percentages and stuff that gives stat ratings. As you laid out, the crit chance from feats and ability scores will be like 80%+ of your crit in Mod6, compared to 60% in Mod5. That's a balancing problem.

    Other examples are the amount of LifeSteal a HR can get and the amount of Deflect a TR can get. These things are still balanced according to the old stat curve.
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    schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    loboguild wrote: »
    Radiants remain much too strong. HP got upgraded even more and unless you get heavy utility from other stats, 400 Power for 1% damage will be vastly superior to what other enchants offer in an offensive slot once you've hit the new ArPen cap. So it's not really progress in terms of bringing the enchants on par.

    Also as others have noted, DR is now a wasted stat in PVP, because it's so easy to stack ArPen.

    This can fix ARP problem:
    Tenacity is a new stat to all existing and upcoming PVP equipment. Tenacity increases resistance to various effects caused by players including control powers, like stuns and knock backs, critical hits, and damage. Tenacity on your equipment to reduceDamage from players, Control Effects on your class and increase your Control Resist. And it will be a crucial stat to have along with Armor Penetration, Critical Strike, Power, and other stats.


    First time "-% to Arp" wast to in Tenacity stat but they removed it in the final patch.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
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