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TR Change's 12/12/14
dersidius
Member Posts: 452 Arc User
Initial thoughts on the TR Changes
Stealth Changes
At first I thought it wasn't going to be an issue; however I did believe it needed to be brought back from a 2 second reveal to a 1 second reveal, but after playing with the new changes there are a lot of situations that need to be addressed.
First and for most, this change has a lot of clunky attributes the pretty much made any range style of TR impossible to play
Whisper Knife:
Disheartening Strike: If you use this at will, and range class now has the chance to counter attack you from any distance for 2 seconds, this is extremely unfair for this tree's capstone, and due to some classes having some undodgeable CC, will drastically shorten the lifespan of said TR - not to mention this TR also dosen't have ITC.
Master Infiltrator:
Gloaming Cut + sneaky stabber: So every time I gloaming cut I get stealth back right? Not like it matters, because If I gloaming cut someone they now see me..
TR in General
Cloud of steel is now useless, out of stealth it does an average of 500 per hit (with max gear on max gear targets) and in stealth you just reveal your location and drain whats left of your stealth bar while also opening yourself up to counter attack
with the 2 Second reveal (Which also has no cap on range), Doing damage from stealth, basically means the following situation has to happen
Hit, Dodge 2 times untill stealth reveal wheres off, and pray that your target dosent use Icy rays, any form of HR roots, sunburst, Dread theft..fill in the blank
Damage
Bloodbath has been adjusted pretty well, might need a further 10% nerf
SE Still needs to be dropped back a little, again probably 10%
Everything else I think falls together pretty nicely for damage, except for the fact that it means you'll probably die in a competitive premade, or you can run around in circles again with Bait & switch..
My personal suggestion is to rework the stealth reveal so that
A) dosent affect ranged abilities
has a range cap so that if the TR hits with a melee ability and walks out of a certain range he regains invisibility
C) Cut down time of reveal (Hr's have the ability to land 3 hits before the reveal leaves.. that basically removes your stealth bar)
or D), Remove this change completely, and nerf over all damage a bit more.
Talking in the spectrum of End Game PvP, this will most likely remove the TR's ability to live longer then a minute on the back cap, which will basically reduce the overall game time of a match.
if the game lasts under 20 minutes, its basically at the point where if you rotate once poorly, you lose. This doesn't foster intelligent team play and cooperation and removes a lot of appeal to PvP in general.
Stealth Changes
At first I thought it wasn't going to be an issue; however I did believe it needed to be brought back from a 2 second reveal to a 1 second reveal, but after playing with the new changes there are a lot of situations that need to be addressed.
First and for most, this change has a lot of clunky attributes the pretty much made any range style of TR impossible to play
Whisper Knife:
Disheartening Strike: If you use this at will, and range class now has the chance to counter attack you from any distance for 2 seconds, this is extremely unfair for this tree's capstone, and due to some classes having some undodgeable CC, will drastically shorten the lifespan of said TR - not to mention this TR also dosen't have ITC.
Master Infiltrator:
Gloaming Cut + sneaky stabber: So every time I gloaming cut I get stealth back right? Not like it matters, because If I gloaming cut someone they now see me..
TR in General
Cloud of steel is now useless, out of stealth it does an average of 500 per hit (with max gear on max gear targets) and in stealth you just reveal your location and drain whats left of your stealth bar while also opening yourself up to counter attack
with the 2 Second reveal (Which also has no cap on range), Doing damage from stealth, basically means the following situation has to happen
Hit, Dodge 2 times untill stealth reveal wheres off, and pray that your target dosent use Icy rays, any form of HR roots, sunburst, Dread theft..fill in the blank
Damage
Bloodbath has been adjusted pretty well, might need a further 10% nerf
SE Still needs to be dropped back a little, again probably 10%
Everything else I think falls together pretty nicely for damage, except for the fact that it means you'll probably die in a competitive premade, or you can run around in circles again with Bait & switch..
My personal suggestion is to rework the stealth reveal so that
A) dosent affect ranged abilities
has a range cap so that if the TR hits with a melee ability and walks out of a certain range he regains invisibilityC) Cut down time of reveal (Hr's have the ability to land 3 hits before the reveal leaves.. that basically removes your stealth bar)
or D), Remove this change completely, and nerf over all damage a bit more.
Talking in the spectrum of End Game PvP, this will most likely remove the TR's ability to live longer then a minute on the back cap, which will basically reduce the overall game time of a match.
if the game lasts under 20 minutes, its basically at the point where if you rotate once poorly, you lose. This doesn't foster intelligent team play and cooperation and removes a lot of appeal to PvP in general.
DERSIDIUS
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Comments
1) You seem to only want the TR to be able to 1vX
2) Premades lasting 15 minutes now, so what? People have lives and they get bored. 1hour premades is a torture.
3) To add to #2, not everything stays the same in this game, things change.
4) It's cute that you post such polite words on the forums but your POV was much more aggressive ingame.
But yeah, we all know the song about you rofl.
I haven't yet entered preview but let me guess, you were there as usual, nobody noticed your presence, but you tried to pick fights with other people, resulting in them ignoring you further, I bet my right hand cut off that happened yet again.
Essentially a double nerf because first our at wills drain stealth, and now you remove our stealth completely to who we are attacking. Consider reducing the stealth lose from at-wills if this is the direction you want to take.
it cannot be said enough what this change does to any TR that goes against range classes.
Not trying to be over negative. The TR changes in this mod make it more fun to play but you gotta realize that out of stealth we melt. Deflect would go a long way here
It can be a 1 second reveal if they remove 100% crit chance and (moderately) toned down the amount of piercing damage. (Honestly, the piercing damage may be fine with just the removal of 100% crit chance.)
First and foremost, Whisper Knife TR has dagger threat, meaning they deal more damage in close range. They should be close to begin with and start with Disheartening Strike to begin a combo. They should *NOT* be throwing a Critting Dot from ultra range and then running and hiding the entire time.
You get 100% crit chance in stealth. People should be able to fight back, not have to run around looking for people that spend 99% of their combat time in stealth.
I guess you fail to mention the extensive length of Dazing Strike now, that allows you to fully utilize Cloud of Steel or any other damage abilities. Still ignoring the fact that you have Vengeance's Pursuit (a teleport to target) or Impossible to Catch at your disposal.
I can agree with the damage on the dailies, especially with the amount of Free Action points being given with the Cloaks.
1) Disagree because then we will have the exact same problems with Whisper Knife just running around killing people with no counters with Disheartening strike. They would be able to literally apply the *critting* DoT and just run far away with no recourse.
2)Also disagree, given the TR's ability for multiple rolls and innate speed boosters.
3) Strongly disagree, given the speed at which I've seen Gloaming Cut-> Evasive Roll combos, if the reveal was any shorter, there'd be no option for a counterplay due to immunity frames on your Roll.
4) I'd agree with removing the change completely if they also removed the 100% critical strike chance and tone down the piercing damage as balance.
First off, being able to handle 2 people solo on a backcap does not show a good deal of balance in general. If you're worried about survivability, use more defensive maneuvers and encounters (like Smoke Cloud) or switch to single target abilities only as you're not revealed to anybody else. Maybe even ask for help from your team.
If anything, this change fosters more cooperation in team play as this will force TR's to use abilities with much more finesse and intelligence than currently required. It may even involve sending them mid instead of backcap due to their inherent ability to burst down high priority targets which works well in cooperation with any CC from another class.
Whisper Knifes have no CC immunity, because of this their only defense is stealth. If they attack, you take away their only defense and open them up to a 1 rotation counter play - TR's lack the defensive stats to not get 1 rotationed by multiple classes, espically without ITC
The only people who had an issue finding a stealth TR are new players, or people who never practiced vs a TR; As for the 100% crit, that is indeed a lazy means of giving the class more damage and completely removed the point for using the crit stat in general. This should be removed and re-supplemented with different damage increases.
Extensive length of DS? It's 1 Second, and other classes can still attack me before the reveal is gone even if I start with Dazing strike, because the reveal is 2 seconds from the last hit. Utilize Cloud of steel? it's useless now, it's better for getting yourself killed with a double whammy of show where your hiding, and drain your stealth. Yes, in a perfect world we always have our CC breaks up, just like my Artifact is always off cooldown and I always have a full HP bar..
1) Then Whisper Knife is even more useless
2) So every time we want to deal damage we're forced to have to dodge as well? So what happens when were stamina starved outside of stealth? Does it make sense that you can see a "stealthed" target 80 feet away?
3) The reveal honestly shouldnt allow more then 1 hit of counter play - right now it allows 3 - and anybody that knows how to use their class properly (with the exception of CW) now has a distinct advantage over TR
Correction, this dosent force TR's to use more skill, this forces the team to not even take TR into a match anymore....
And for god sakes yes, running around a node with a bait and switch dummy all day, that's exactly how I want to play again!
at will are basically dead for me, back to full perma and wait for AP to refill
It seems like the path of Whisper Knife is shifting towards a more offensive build in this case. A quick Dazing Strike followed by a Disheartening Strike and then either following through with a daily or kiting can be viable strategies that will take some skill to do with the visibility now. This is a bit of a hit and run, but it's wholly counterable. In any case, they have Vengeance's pursuit available which is a CC breaker along with Advantageous Position. People seem to entirely underestimate taking Defensive Class Features on Offensive Classes.
This is false, as experienced players are noticing too now that Trickster Rogues are very hard to find in stealth. How would you explain the remarkably high K/D ratios of Tricksters if that were not the case? As for the crit, yes they went overboard with that. I think piercing damage from stealth would have been a more acceptable compromise in the rework, but introducing that now would have implications for single target dps in PvE, so unless you have a good suggestion in that area, this might have to stay.
Dazing Strike can still be quickly followed up by any encounter, which from stealth, can easily put your target on the defensive rather than the offensive, with the possibility of flat out executing them with a daily. They haven't increased the visibility on stealth when not attacking, so you can easily save all your rolls for exiting combat after doing the aforementioned combo. As for cloud of steel, you're only visible to your target, so choose your target carefully, like a healing DC. You will only be visible to whoever you attack.
For everything else in this section, the current leaderboard on rogues will show their status on how often their health bars hit 0 with no soulforge available.
1) In this very post I described methods that can be used with regards to these changes. These require a bit more technique to accomplish while being something that can actively be countered. The damage from at wills and encounters themselves are untouched so they are still very formidable and can easily kill people that do not have full CD's or at a health disadvantage.
2)Every other class in this game has to weave in dodges into attacks either for positioning or evasive maneuvers. TR should not be different. And what happens when you're out of stamina and stealth? Pretty much what happens to *every other class in this game with no CD's and no stamina*. You die. In any case, does it make sense that I can put a bleed on a TR and not be able to track his blood? I'm pretty sure if somebody threw a knife at me and I'm ready for a fight, I'd be able to determine from where the knife was thrown. Or, if I were stabbed in the back, I'm sure I'd know that the guy is right behind me.
3)Except that the TR can use Dazing Strike and follow up with considerable burst. The TR gets a first hit and continues to have 100% crit from stealth. To ignore the very impact of getting first hit (while doing huge amounts of damage) and then having tools such as Impossible to Catch is not the best plan of action.
I'm sure bursting down healing DC's and taking out targets with copious amounts of piercing damage will prevent that. Not to mention Scoundrel has near perma CC (that can be an aoe with smoke cloud) or Executioners being literal executioners in single target damage. It's just that they will now require some skill in adjusting for counterplay.
Oh yes, because they're reverting all the changes made in mod 5! Not really, no.
Yeah i got your point but none of you got mine.
this applies every time a land a knife!!
they are not countering permastealth they are making stealth useless.
and you ( as forumers ) can say all you want about our tankiness but i dare to say we are the most squishy out here after an archery HR.
They wanted to make perma stealth more difficult and reduce the reward from it. These changes are crude and lacking in finess
75% deflect severity, deflect rate from 2 stats, 4 extremely long dodges, huge movement speed, ITC, dazes, stealth... yeah right. Squishy as a tank.
What, you can't kite for 2 seconds after hitting a target?? Hit with daze first then.
you will see.
i m not going to give any feedback this time.
i will just try to adapt and see what happens
Well that's exactly what they are doing. You gotta see stealth more like a tool to regain control of a fight or do high burst damage, not a defensive ability like many TRs claim it to be. It's really just a change in playstyle, a major one admittedly.
What I really don't like is that the difference in skill cap between the classes this change brings.
You are obviously delusional. Lies like you believe no one agreed with him. You can't say for everyone because it is you who did not agree. For one simple reason. You are playing op hr and you are scared that TR will be still able to kill you.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Uh, that's the point I was making in response to another post. Anyway, whilst it would appear to target one aspect of perma stealth, it's an indescriminate approach that doesnt affect just Sabs but also the other two paths.
what is needed and or should be changed:
-at wills should not deplete stealth anymore, it was done to counter permastealth but now i m just VISIBLE so what's the point???? at least give me full use of stealth secondary bonuses (crit chance and combat advantage).
- receiving damage should not deplete stealth anymore hence REWORK TENACIOUS CONCILEMENT. Suggestion : DR or Deflect.
- No saboteurs are going to use at wills anymore hence piercing damage and feats around being in stealth are useless.
Change it in something based around being stealth and able to regenerate HP.
TR is the only class without self-sustain.
As compensation: remove piercing.
- shadow strike should not be affected by visibility.
The offensiveness Only comes from stealth, and all the encounters you mentioned break stealth and should only be used for safety, the mechanics you described are relevant to a pug match and only that. In a equal gear match, you do what you just mentioned, you get blown up.
False? Dude, you might not be experienced then, all the people I play with on the BIS level have little to no difficulty knowing where a rogue is in stealth. As for the K/D, thats a joke in itself, any and all tricksters that ACTUALLY play people their same gear level and not pugs barely average + k/d's in a match, so don't pull up the "I kill and hide to inflate my K/D" strategy like it means anything
Yes lets use less skill and never combo our abilities! while also being useless and never putting people on the defensive!
FYI Cloud of steel gets you BLOWN UP against a DPS dc, lol.
Leaderboard is a joke, don't use it to state facts
1. You describe methods that are flawed and won't work, I'm not even certain you have a level 60 TR
2. FYI, if you turn your graphics up, you can see a stealthed TR by a large amount of visiual tells already... like I said, EXPERIENCED players have no issues finding a rogue.
3.God Forbid the Solo target DPS King has burst damage with a means to actually land it...
Scoundrels damage is Laughable at best and it's CC provides on par help for a 2v2, Executioner is useless wherever theres a DC, GF, or or purple shield CW in any 2v2 or higher
Um yea... they kinda are, but this time we won't even have stealth when its over!
That's exactly why I said use Dazing Strike, to prevent the counter (which is now possible due to the reveal). In any case, TR's still have plenty of Deflect and Deflect Severity. Whisperknife won't have ITC, but that just means it follows a different tactic.
Uh, EoA people have said that the stealth is BS. Exodus people have called the stealth BS. How is the K/D not indicative of the *overly extreme and uncounterable* capabilities of stealth on live server? Not even talking about place on leaderboard, just raw data upon all TR's amongst the Invincible Overlord Rank.
Let's talk about *your K/D ratio*. Apparently you're NOT doing the "hide to inflate your K/D" and yet your K/D is at a staggering 2287/43 from 171 total matches. You're from Absolute, so surely you fight pure premades all the time, and you're telling me that fighting the best of the best, a good 1 month into mod 5, you haven't even died 50 times. Then you have the nerve to say people can easily find you in stealth.
I've had numerous Dazing->Lashing, and the infamous Dazing->Daily. You have plenty of combos, it's just that now you have a counter.
Btw, a dps DC is not a healing DC. I guess you should pick targets more carefully or use a different tactic.
It applies here, I mean you are in Absolute and fight mostly in premades, right? So then your k/d in those conditions should be reflective how how PvP is functioning among the best of the best, correct?
1. No they're not flawed, because I've taken them to the face and they're quite annoying. Maybe you should get some tips from Nocturnal?
2. My graphics are on the highest they can be. And it doesn't even matter because the range at which they can be targeted is just a little less than the range at which they can attack. And if you haven't stuck them with an ability that would outline them in stealth, they simply just jump and roll around being completely untargetable, using ITC should they get sloppy. Btw, to reiterate again right here:Let's talk about *your K/D ratio*. Apparently you're NOT doing the "hide to inflate your K/D" and yet your K/D is at a staggering 2287/43 from 171 total matches. You're from Absolute, so surely you fight pure premades all the time, and you're telling me that fighting the best of the best, a good 1 month into mod 5, you haven't even died 50 times. Then you have the nerve to say people can easily find you in stealth.
3. Ok so you say the Dazing->anything else combo is flawed in #1 of this very list. Now you're saying that you deserve to have it. Pick one and only one. And you're ignoring that you can still land it as you have the advantage of the first attack. You are stealthed to all targets until your first attack and only visible to your target after that attack. Stealth (100% crit) still applies to you.
Scoundrel is more about lockdown, yet it still provides ample Damage against targets with inherently low defensive stats. Executioner has extreme piercing damage in the form of Shadow of Demise. I guarantee you that an Executioner + any class with a stun/CC will take out a healing DC.
Once again, you're stealthed prior to your first attack, giving you the advantage of making the first strike, and you're only visible for 2 seconds only to your target.
Iyon the Dark
Scoundrel and Exe in my eyes are not affected by this whatsoever, they were using stealth to set up their one-shot/daze rotations anyway.
6 sec of stealth - and 2 sec visible, so what happens if I use a dot and go into stealth? Do i just become completely visible? Why do roguess have all these painfully slow activation times that we will now be exposed while using? Isn't the reason they are slow is because they cab be used while unseen? If you take that away, it seems like many of these reworks were just pointless.
Terrible knee-jerk change, find a better way.
Shadowy opportunity is not proccing anymore on duelist flurry
These changes seem to be driven completely off forum whining, wait on it for at least a few months, im sure people can figure out how to counter what you are meddling with, without tearing down what you've just done.
Stop <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with it.
Lmfao @ you. YOU are delusional.
If you were here in the channel yesterday (Doubt you even have it) you would know nobody agreed with him and were making fun of him for being on his high horse as usual.
HR > TR after this change, it's confirmed.
Are you irate?
First and foremost my K/D is an exception, and not based on premades either, my 43 deaths all come from real premades and 0 from pugs.
I honestly don't care what you think about stealth because not only do I know how much of a falsity stealth is, I have trained people to notice it as well, In fact the top two teams on the server constantly train 2 classes to deal with stealth with near effortless ease (with the exception of the daily damage trs used to have). Anyone who cannot mimic the results hasn't practiced enough, and if you think that you should win without practice, your a self entitled brat.
As it stands with the recent reveal changes,trs went from top 1v1 class to barely the middle man, that is a HUGE drastic change which is again based on taking more skill out of the game
Sometimes I wonder If everyone just wants to convert back to the click and cast of WoW
And the dazing combo that you mentioned is again, easily countered, And with the stealth changes,if they deflect any of the dazes your tr just got whacked because of something left up to chance and out of The trs control
Well, I guess it's time for HR to return to it's status of godmode class, our 3 weeks were fun while they lasted
so duelist flurry full depletes a stealth bar but it applies once shadowy opportunity......wai you say??
so lets consider it just an at will strike