So many misleading, uninformed posts about GWFs by people who clearly don't play it and didn't play it back before module 2/ iron vanguard...
First of all, it must be stated that what we talk about is, obviously, 1v1 situations.
Before Iron Vanguard path was introduced, Swordmaster sentinels needed a very specific setup and rotation in End-game to vs permastealth TRs and CWs. Mainly, we're talking about Bravery and Roar. Not cause Roar is bugged, but cause Roar even if not bugged was supposed to root enemies.
ummmmm no roar is actually just supposed to interupt enemies so you are wrong on that regard read the tooltip. so it is bugged and has never been working as intended. it was never suppose to "root' enemies i have no idea where you got that from so stop misleading everyone with faulty info.nowhere is an interupt a "root" if that was the case feated lunging strike from the tactician tree of GF should work in the same regard as your "root" roar but it doesnt you are so very wrong.
you also forgot to mention that sprinting makes you cc immune now and if you spec/gear right you can have almost a 100% uptime on that , but hey thats besides the point and fyi FLS & takedown give you enough time to land an IBS on an opponent on preview.
personally imho GWF should never have been given the IV path as GF's should have never been given Swordmaster path it's laughable that you can even compare the two to each other vs classes
where as IV GWF gained so much more as opposed to GF's getting swordmaster but this is due to the oversight that the devs never scaled the IV path to GWF dmg. it was a mistake and a cop out on the devs part maybe because they were rushed for time who the hell knows..
i have never ever used roar till module 3 when destroyer purpose was introduced , and have killed perma TR and CW with florish, takedown and IBS b4 mod 2 and FS, takedown and IBS after it.
and its possible to catch CW after activating florish and using takedown as prone and not stun , i may not have been that good in PVP b4 mod 2 but wasnt that bad too . certainly roar makes it easy but florish and takedown were more than enough to kill perma tr but takedown should do prone to land IBS.
but after mod 4 it will be near impossible to kill perma TR and very hard to kill others without a prone .
and for those who think IBS aoe effect is more than enough to do significant dmg plz tell me hom much dmg it actually does.
as the name stated by takedown if it does not prone whats the use of it naming like that .
and lets talk about using sprint and IBS , both there animation takes .66+ sec , nether they are suitable for dodging after other person has activated there encounters nor IBS is suitable for landing it , till the animation it finishes it allows other party to move way b4 that.
without prone or root effect of roar it will be very hard for GWF to survive in next module.
i have never ever used roar till module 3 when destroyer purpose was introduced , and have killed perma TR and CW with florish, takedown and IBS b4 mod 2 and FS, takedown and IBS after it.
and its possible to catch CW after activating florish and using takedown as prone and not stun , i may not have been that good in PVP b4 mod 2 but wasnt that bad too . certainly roar makes it easy but florish and takedown were more than enough to kill perma tr but takedown should do prone to land IBS.
but after mod 4 it will be near impossible to kill perma TR and very hard to kill others without a prone .
and for those who think IBS aoe effect is more than enough to do significant dmg plz tell me hom much dmg it actually does.
as the name stated by takedown if it does not prone whats the use of it naming like that .
and lets talk about using sprint and IBS , both there animation takes .66+ sec , nether they are suitable for dodging after other person has activated there encounters nor IBS is suitable for landing it , till the animation it finishes it allows other party to move way b4 that.
without prone or root effect of roar it will be very hard for GWF to survive in next module.
If they speed up IBS I think that would fix the problem. Otherwise the main damage encounter of the class will be unusable in pvp against anyone that's paying attention.
But yeah, I'll do a vid of GWF PvP on Preview. It'll have CC and DPS, but it won't need Roar to do well. Because GWFs haven't needed Roar to do well in Mod3-onward.
Herpaderpaferp.
GWFs so far needed either FLS or Roar against end game permas and CWs. I'd say even more in module 4 since it seems that CWs now can Dodge more and faster. Also, CC chains are not done cause GWFs are lazy. IBS needs the enemy to ne CCed to land, else, Any half decent TR-CW-HR-GF-DC will Dodge or block it in 1v1. Ranged stuns and prones are used has a 1st move for a couple of reasons:
- contesting a node against a strong perma, the only seconds he's vulnerable, he's far from you. He will be in ITC first, then dodge rolling away into stealth and rolling again, then bunnyhopping around, and they usually are faster than a GWF even if you use bravery. But if you can show me a vs against a end game perma where you catch him without a ranged stun, i'm in for it
- flourish is slow and easily dodged in end game pvp. Same goes for takedown. GWFs rely on chain prones to max damage and also cause basically they have the most dodgeable encounters, while being the class that can avoid damage the less (unstoppable si used in exchange for damage you take).
I'm testing a mix of threat rush/ punishing charge for mobility, and takedown/IBS. Takedown con be useful to open, expecially Since the animation is faster than flourish and there's a 3 secs CD upon missing. Still, it can be easily dodged in end game PvP.
Destroyers damage come from DP feat, which requires you to actually hit the enemy a lot during unstoppable. With modo 4 nerfs, GWFs will be kit ed a lot, which means an indirect nerf to destroyers damage in PvP top.
But my guess si that, like in the past, good GWFs will find new builds and rotations to make good use of the new weapons they will gwf, lazy players will complain about sprint/ whatever else Going OP cause it's easier than learning to counter the enemy moves, and everything will start over and over again...
i have never ever used roar till module 3 when destroyer purpose was introduced , and have killed perma TR and CW with florish, takedown and IBS b4 mod 2 and FS, takedown and IBS after it.
and its possible to catch CW after activating florish and using takedown as prone and not stun , i may not have been that good in PVP b4 mod 2 but wasnt that bad too . certainly roar makes it easy but florish and takedown were more than enough to kill perma tr but takedown should do prone to land IBS.
but after mod 4 it will be near impossible to kill perma TR and very hard to kill others without a prone .
and for those who think IBS aoe effect is more than enough to do significant dmg plz tell me hom much dmg it actually does.
as the name stated by takedown if it does not prone whats the use of it naming like that .
and lets talk about using sprint and IBS , both there animation takes .66+ sec , nether they are suitable for dodging after other person has activated there encounters nor IBS is suitable for landing it , till the animation it finishes it allows other party to move way b4 that.
without prone or root effect of roar it will be very hard for GWF to survive in next module.
umm try using FLS and then takedown it still works to land an IBS in pvp, destroyer wont be as tanky as it was in mod 3 most will go sent now.
But my guess si that, like in the past, good GWFs will find new builds and rotations to make good use of the new weapons they will gwf, lazy players will complain about sprint/ whatever else Going OP cause it's easier than learning to counter the enemy moves, and everything will start over and over again...
correct new builds will be found , play style will change but GWF will have to move too much like ranged class , which is not GWF class is made for .
as for build it will mainly revolve around sent and movement and SM path instead of IV since it is useless till further notice from DEV.
and this new build be mainly for surviving rather than killing. which is what pisses me off. we will be put in same category as DC , but DC can heal , we will just run around and prone and try to land IBS. the only GWF who will be able to land there IBS are plyers with net speed below 100ms, any more than that and player will be able to dodge. the stun duration havent been consider for players with 300ms+.
umm try using FLS and then takedown it still works to land an IBS in pvp, destroyer wont be as tanky as it was in mod 3 most will go sent now.
thats currently possible in live after mod 4 FLS dmg is nerfed by 38% i think and it CD is still 15-17 sec depending on recovery , with stuns and not prone so it still is same as florish so useless .
i have never ever used roar till module 3 when destroyer purpose was introduced , and have killed perma TR and CW with florish, takedown and IBS b4 mod 2 and FS, takedown and IBS after it.
and its possible to catch CW after activating florish and using takedown as prone and not stun , i may not have been that good in PVP b4 mod 2 but wasnt that bad too . certainly roar makes it easy but florish and takedown were more than enough to kill perma tr but takedown should do prone to land IBS.
Before IV was introduced, this was what you'd get if you tried to 1v1 a BiS CW with just flourish and takedown:
And i pretty much recall all the other elite players commenting on this video how the GWF was using wrong setup and wrong rotation. Plus, keep in mind this video shows an old regeneration monster. Nowadays, GWFs do not regenerate like that.
Against permas it's usually the same. Flourish is slow, so 99% of the times the enemy will be dodging while you use it. Now the point is if by luck the timing of the enemy dodge will not match the latency and allow the power to follow him and hit him when he comes out of the dodging/ teleporting animation. Else, your flourish would crush on the enemy's immunity. Takedown is easily dodged, usually.
The other problem is that the base stun is 2 seconds, but then we have tenacity and racial traits for halflings or gear/ passives, further reducing CC duration. Animations on flourish, takedown and IBS should then be changed to be much faster.
I also used to go for a takedown/regenerating strike/IBS combo before tenacity (after tenacity, restoring strike healing was cut in half). Simple reason was, i liked the challenge of catching the enemy with just takedown, and RS animation linked wonderfully with IBS (you use RS and then hit IBS exactly at the end of RS animation when the sword is raised above the GWF's head, you cut all the part of animation from IBS where the toon raises the sword above his head) so i was able to hit with RS and IBS while the enemy was prone from takedown.
With tenacity, prone time was greatly reduced and healing from RS was cut in half, sadly.
Would be even less possible to use it with a 2 seconds stun on takedown...
Stunning flourish is on instigator tree and you would need to sacrifice too much to get it.
Perma TRs, if good, are usually in ITC when fighting melee, then they are rolling away (immune) and going stealth. Pretty much you should be able to time flourish, taking lag into account, to follow them and hit when their rolling animation is over. Or, else, be able to guess how the TR moves during stealth (many of them just bunnyhop in circle, but not the good ones), sprint where he is and flourish. But any half good TR is able to quietly time his dodge roll immunity to match the slow animation of flourish...
Just guessing based on my experience, but it seems to me just a lot of stuff together. Survivability+ CC+ damage all nerfed a lot... We'll see.
I like to adapt, just hope we will be left with enough weapons to fight.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
One thing I wasn't aware of is that with all base DR neutralized with RI and debuffs, your tenacity acts as a DR floor so at, say, 19% TeR your DR can't go any lower than 19%.
I have taken 90% damage even thought I had 19% DR from tenacity. So how do you explain that?
thats currently possible in live after mod 4 FLS dmg is nerfed by 38% i think and it CD is still 15-17 sec depending on recovery , with stuns and not prone so it still is same as florish so useless .
the stuns def give you enough time to land a takedown into an ibs it works on preview server. also the damage needed a reduction for GWF because it was never scaled corrrectly when you guys got the IV path so now it should be doing that damage like it should have been in the first place thats why it feels like a nerf.
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zankardMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If a regular geared rainbow party (around 14ks all members) can make CN 4/4 on Preview [i tryed 2 times with different groups and 0 success (with the first group, we couldn't pass from Valindra's pet)] , i will retract from everything i said here.
Not sure about what's been previously told, I'll just jump on this from my experience: We have done CN 4/4 with a rainbow group on Live, numerous times. It took more time and everyone was above 16k gs, but if anything it was never that impossible as people make it to be. I don't know about preview though, so I can't have an opinion on that.
I have taken 90% damage even thought I had 19% DR from tenacity. So how do you explain that?
What game are YOU playing? GWF is stealing GF's role? And what role is that exactly?
having 19% tenacity, that means your Damage resistance increasese with 19% and that means it's 19% out of 45% damage resistance for example or 3k+ defense... i think ..
the stuns def give you enough time to land a takedown into an ibs it works on preview server. also the damage needed a reduction for GWF because it was never scaled corrrectly when you guys got the IV path so now it should be doing that damage like it should have been in the first place thats why it feels like a nerf.
the latency in preview and live are diffrent , u have to count every possibility, with 20% control resist from tenacity+10% CR from abilty points +5% CR from artifact , thats the minimum any1 can get there CR from many things , and latency in live for large amount of players is 300ms+ (except players who r near the server location) it reduces stun duration less then 1 sec , now tell me what is the possibility of landing IBS?
having 19% tenacity, that means your Damage resistance increasese with 19% and that means it's 19% out of 45% damage resistance for example or 3k+ defense... i think ..
tenacity is ,multiplicative index. if u have 40% DR and 20% tenacity and the other player has 25% armor penetration
the dmg reduction = base dmg*(1-.4+.25)*(1-.2)
u can add other DR to ur base DR but cant add tenacity to it.
55% stamina reduction is just plain class breaking
lol so much this slot bravery and feat fast runner and fleat footed and this class can just run circles around anyone forever looks like the new meta will be sprint in blow cooldowns sprint in circles while cc immune come in repeat pop unstoppable when unstoppable ends keep running in circles lol. nice move devs if your gonna give GWF this unstoppable needs to be like 10-15% DR. what is the deal with trying to make these guys the ultimate tank and killing machine.
if we run around how will we kill? and its 40% not 55%
if we run around how will we kill? and its 40% not 55%
He's assuming every GWF will take the 15% Heroic feat (5 feat points) just like he's assuming every GWF will wait until their determination bar is only full before they use Unstoppable.
the stuns def give you enough time to land a takedown into an ibs it works on preview server. also the damage needed a reduction for GWF because it was never scaled corrrectly when you guys got the IV path so now it should be doing that damage like it should have been in the first place thats why it feels like a nerf.
The only problem is, you can't open a combo with takedown. It's an easily dodged move. You can try, but every good TR/ CW/ HR will just kite you forever if you try to use takedown as your first move. That's why chain prone combos were the way to go, with a ranged stun/ prone as an opening. Way before IVs and threat rush on GWFs, the good ones used to slot Roar to face perma TRs and CWs.
Flourish is too slow and easily dodged. Plus, it will at best connect following a dodging enemy. Which means, after that you've to sprint at the enemy and start takedown. With tenacity and CC resistances it's hardly enough to chain stun. Same for FLS.
This means that a GWF will need to just try and land a takedown directly, to follow then with IBS. I'm pretty sure any good CW/ TR is laughing now, thinking at how easy it'll be to kite GWFs like that, with them trying to catch them with a direct takedown...Lol
Also, when i say takedown is dodged, i don't mean the full dodge that sends it to a 3 seconds shorter cooldown. I mean that it crushes on the enemy dodge immunity and goes to a full cooldown.
He's assuming every GWF will take the 15% Heroic feat (5 feat points) just like he's assuming every GWF will wait until their determination bar is only full before they use Unstoppable.
every class gets CC immunity when they press shift and when GWF have it they have problem , if GWF starts running around , the amount of dmg done by GWF is quite negligible if he doesnt attack and then it will be easier for other class to heal if gwf dont attack and run , they all see the no. but never see wheteher its will be practically good for GWF or not , and if every GWF starts investing there points in stamina feat , they loose points in other , so ffs to gain stamina GWF will loose either offense or defense by fair amount , so dont start assuming everything.
Flourish problem is not range, but animation time.
Everytime you read another class complaining about GWFs, they always focus on what must be taken away or what is OP, and tend to forget what is left when nerfs are applied.
Their main problem is "it's too easy with Roar/ FLS/ Threat Rush. Take away/ nerf these. Prones too. Take them away.
Ok.
Now, we have flourish. Which is so slow that a blind monkey could dodge it. Same for takedown, plus takedown does not have great range, just a short follow-up effect. And the shortened cooldown if it does not connect.
Too bad the problem of a flourish or a takedown, is not to conncect, but to be so slow that in a 1v1 situation any half-good CW-DC-TR-HR-GF can time his block/ immunity move to make them crush on it.
Plus, with just stuns, if you increase the range of flourish you still have the issue of GWFs reaching the enemy too late to land takedown. If you can't land takedown, you can't land IBS.
Now, i'm all in for "no prones" and no ranged stuns/ CC.
But in exchange, if you want it to be fair, IBS and Flourish must have 4x faster animations. Else it's the opposite problem: it's to easy for any other class to dodge them.
Funny thing is, you read people complaining cause using roar or FLS or Threat Rush is too easy and requires no skills, but on the other side they think that kiting a GWF that can only use very slowly animated moves that even a blind monkey can dodge, is all thanks to their amazing skills.
I'd say no increased range, just then make our moves as fast as a TR/ HR move so that it's not that easy to dodge our attacks.
I just came from Test again and, right now, i think DEVs should make Flourish a ranged stun move like frontline surge. It should have the range of Creshendo (because is a single target stun instead of being a multi target stun like Front), prone the target BUT leaving GWF at the spot like it does right now, Make it CC inmune due is really easy to counter due its slowness and give the prone on Frontline Surge back, keeping other nerfs on this move
Flourish need faster animation and CC immunity on cast
Disagree on first, agree on second. Why? Flourish shouldnt be a "takedown" but its renplacement and to give SM path a range stun move like Surge. That is why i suggested CC inmunity, prone and ranged attack and bring prone on surge back.
GWF are already plenty CC immune what with your new perma sprint(sprint giving cc immunity) and unstoppable are you kidding me that you want some more easy mode cheese that now your skills need to be cc immune to? no sorry but this idea is so beyond anything it's laughable if anything flourish could have its animation time increased so that it would benefit gwf and gf's and thats it. lol i cant believe your all suggesting to make you cc immune while casting it lol
GWF are already plenty CC immune what with your new perma sprint(sprint giving cc immunity) and unstoppable are you kidding me that you want some more easy mode cheese that now your skills need to be cc immune to? no sorry but this idea is so beyond anything it's laughable if anything flourish could have its animation time increased so that it would benefit gwf and gf's and thats it. lol i cant believe your all suggesting to make you cc immune while casting it lol
I like how everyone talks about the new sprint. It's still bugged, will rubber-band wicked strike, and generally the added bonus does nothing for the GWF unless he's running around all the time, offering nothing to his group. Even in pvp the argument is funny, you'll have a class that can't kill anyone but might get away sometimes. Most of the times not though.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited July 2014
Folks, if your comments are more discussionary in measure than straight feedback,
please use these discussion threads provided instead. Thanks!
We included each of these discussion threads as a link in the [ List ] sticky.
Flourish problem is not range, but animation time.
Everytime you read another class complaining about GWFs, they always focus on what must be taken away or what is OP, and tend to forget what is left when nerfs are applied.
Their main problem is "it's too easy with Roar/ FLS/ Threat Rush. Take away/ nerf these. Prones too. Take them away.
Ok.
Wait a minute! They did NOT take those away? Your argument is over abilities that were either "Bugged" or were way to good for a class that had a spammable "Unstoppable"
The GWF complaining about losing Roar on live is beyond ridiculous as its bugged to give an AOE 3 CC's in one!
FLS is no longer a prone in pvp, it still stuns the target you just don't get the extra delay time on them falling on their back animation prone... You will be fine, you will still have time to hit them.
Threatening Rush on a class with now ( 2 ) FREE CC immunities that are not encounters, really? You're going to complain? You and every other GWF no **** well it was abused to no end having an at will that hit for 5k damage and closed gaps was to good!
You will have to actually try harder now, instead of using bugged abilities and ranged prones, and exploiting an at will to close distance over and over you will need to use it on its 3 charge rotation.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Wait a minute! They did NOT take those away? Your argument is over abilities that were either "Bugged" or were way to good for a class that had a spammable "Unstoppable"
The GWF complaining about losing Roar on live is beyond ridiculous as its bugged to give an AOE 3 CC's in one!
FLS is no longer a prone in pvp, it still stuns the target you just don't get the extra delay time on them falling on their back animation prone... You will be fine, you will still have time to hit them.
Threatening Rush on a class with now ( 2 ) FREE CC immunities that are not encounters, really? You're going to complain? You and every other GWF no **** well it was abused to no end having an at will that hit for 5k damage and closed gaps was to good!
You will have to actually try harder now, instead of using bugged abilities and ranged prones, and exploiting an at will to close distance over and over you will need to use it on its 3 charge rotation.
You don't even read what people write, seriously...You just keep repeating the same things even if they are wrong.
I said guys like you focus on what they want taken away and, knowing nothing about the class, try to "guess" what will happen.
Roar was not just "fixed", it was nerfed too. Originally it was meant to root the enemy. It was in the description. You get this? This was taken away entirely. So it's not a fix on something bugged, it's a fix+nerf. It was fixed (no more stun, no more going through CC immunities, no more silencing players), then it was NERFED with rooting effect taken away AND damage nerfed. So now it does even less damage and gives some determination depending on how many targets you hit. Useless in PvP (enemies never stay grouped) and arguably useful in PvE for Destroyers to keep Stacks of DP up. So GWFs do not complain about the FIXES, they complain cause Roar is getting nerfed to the ground with the original rooting effect taken away. You get it? Go read the Power description, cause it seems you don't even know that much.
Also, Unstoppable was not "spammable". As explained many times, if you lock a GWF in a CC rotation (any class can prone and CC) and use you encounters, he then goes unstoppable and you kite+ at wills, then again CC and encounters when he's out of unstoppable, he will go big and red few times. GWFs can "spam" Unstoppable only if bad players spam at-wills when they are normal, feeding their determination with minimum damage. It's been said multiple times already. End-game PvPers already said multiple times that GWFs are easy to cancel in end-game PvP. Only bad players keep repeating that "Unstoppable is spammable". It's spammable if you are a bad player, expecially after healing depression introduction. And this is a fact any end-game PvPer will confirm.
As we already said, FLS stun is NOT enough to land takedown or IBS. Did you test it? No. You "guess" it will be enough. It is not. 2 seconds stun get reduced a lot by tenacity and other stuff like racial traits and passives/ gear. So the GWF has like 1 second to get to the enemy using threat rush or sprint and then hit him. It is not enough.
You can link takedown and IBS still, but takedown as an opening move is easy to dodge, just like flourish.
The 2 "FREE CC immunities" you talk about are:
Unstoppable: It's not free. You take damage, lose HP, THEN you go unstoppable. So it's not free. Plus: in module 4, if you test it, determination gain is a lot slower. To make you understand: the GWF takes a ****LOAD of damage, then he can go unstoppable 4 seconds. It looks free to you only.
Sprint: again, as i said previously, it's the gap closer. Threat rush now has 3 charges with 9 seconds cooldown. So to close gaps against the multiple immunity dodges of CWs/ TRs/ HRs you will need to sprint. You sprint to close the gap OR to avoid being CCed. And you know, stamina is not "free" or infinite. It got increased by 40% even if now it is used for both defense AND gap closing. The meaning is: a GWF can close the gap without being CCed, but to use sprint as an immunity dodge is a completely different matter. Expecially since sprint is slower than other immunity dodges and has only damage reduction while TR/ HR/ CW/ DC dodges have damage IMMUNITY.
As said, however, stamina is not endless. It ends, so sprint is not "free". And GWFs are not ranged like CWs and HRs, and can't go stealth like TRs.
So your "free CC immunities" are not "free" at all. But you can keep repeating that nonsense to convince yourself.
The wrong thing you fail to understand is that playng GF and CW only you have a very limited insight of what a GWF can and cannot do, and you know nothing about how a HR vs GWF or GWF vs Perma-TR goes. And i can tell you, both classes are for sure laughing their asses off right now cause for them, in mdoule 4, vsing a GWF will be a kiting fest.
So, as i said, just to change you could stop your endless raging nonsense and actually start to focus on what will be really left and think about it.
As we said, GWFs will have:
- Less determination gain, which means, they will take more damage and go Unstoppable few times. Expecially considering how Unstoppable already is "delayed" when you get CC (you can't go Unstoppable for a short period of time). It's already like that on live.
- Less DR on Unstoppable for destroyers. Same DR on sentinels.
- Less damage, much less damage on sentinels due to the damage nerfs on many powers (30% less damage on takedown).
- More stamina, more sprint, but will need to be split into defensive use and gap closing use.
- 3 charges of threat rush, less mobility.
- No more Roar rooting effect (which was the intended effect originally described for the power), apart from all the fixes needed. So, no more roar in PvP since the rooting effect was why it was used in PvP to avoid being kited in module 1.
- No more prone on FLS, whic means along with tenacity and CC resistances, no more FLS-takedown chains. Put together with the above, no more ranged CC moves for GWFs on top of the reduced survivability and mobility.
- Flourish damage increased and stun increased. Animation still very slow and easily dodged if used to open.
- Takedown stun in place of prone, which means enemies can deflect IBS.
The way it is now, GWFs have less survivability, and lack an effective opening move to actually counter the kiting of other classes. Could be useful against CW the sprint CC immunity, but against semi-perma TRs or HRs it's a huge nerf. No effective ranged CC, less mobility and lack of an opening move to, say, catch a semi perma doing his usual ITC-dodge roll immunity-permastealth rotation.
The suggestion is still the same: reduce by 4 times the duration of flourish and IBS rotation. It's ok to take away chain prones/ chain CC combos, but not if then you leave the class with slow, easily dodgeable melee moves. On top of reduced survivability and mobility.
Comments
ummmmm no roar is actually just supposed to interupt enemies so you are wrong on that regard read the tooltip. so it is bugged and has never been working as intended. it was never suppose to "root' enemies i have no idea where you got that from so stop misleading everyone with faulty info.nowhere is an interupt a "root" if that was the case feated lunging strike from the tactician tree of GF should work in the same regard as your "root" roar but it doesnt you are so very wrong.
you also forgot to mention that sprinting makes you cc immune now and if you spec/gear right you can have almost a 100% uptime on that , but hey thats besides the point and fyi FLS & takedown give you enough time to land an IBS on an opponent on preview.
personally imho GWF should never have been given the IV path as GF's should have never been given Swordmaster path it's laughable that you can even compare the two to each other vs classes
where as IV GWF gained so much more as opposed to GF's getting swordmaster but this is due to the oversight that the devs never scaled the IV path to GWF dmg. it was a mistake and a cop out on the devs part maybe because they were rushed for time who the hell knows..
and its possible to catch CW after activating florish and using takedown as prone and not stun , i may not have been that good in PVP b4 mod 2 but wasnt that bad too . certainly roar makes it easy but florish and takedown were more than enough to kill perma tr but takedown should do prone to land IBS.
but after mod 4 it will be near impossible to kill perma TR and very hard to kill others without a prone .
and for those who think IBS aoe effect is more than enough to do significant dmg plz tell me hom much dmg it actually does.
as the name stated by takedown if it does not prone whats the use of it naming like that .
and lets talk about using sprint and IBS , both there animation takes .66+ sec , nether they are suitable for dodging after other person has activated there encounters nor IBS is suitable for landing it , till the animation it finishes it allows other party to move way b4 that.
without prone or root effect of roar it will be very hard for GWF to survive in next module.
GWFs so far needed either FLS or Roar against end game permas and CWs. I'd say even more in module 4 since it seems that CWs now can Dodge more and faster. Also, CC chains are not done cause GWFs are lazy. IBS needs the enemy to ne CCed to land, else, Any half decent TR-CW-HR-GF-DC will Dodge or block it in 1v1. Ranged stuns and prones are used has a 1st move for a couple of reasons:
- contesting a node against a strong perma, the only seconds he's vulnerable, he's far from you. He will be in ITC first, then dodge rolling away into stealth and rolling again, then bunnyhopping around, and they usually are faster than a GWF even if you use bravery. But if you can show me a vs against a end game perma where you catch him without a ranged stun, i'm in for it
- flourish is slow and easily dodged in end game pvp. Same goes for takedown. GWFs rely on chain prones to max damage and also cause basically they have the most dodgeable encounters, while being the class that can avoid damage the less (unstoppable si used in exchange for damage you take).
I'm testing a mix of threat rush/ punishing charge for mobility, and takedown/IBS. Takedown con be useful to open, expecially Since the animation is faster than flourish and there's a 3 secs CD upon missing. Still, it can be easily dodged in end game PvP.
Destroyers damage come from DP feat, which requires you to actually hit the enemy a lot during unstoppable. With modo 4 nerfs, GWFs will be kit ed a lot, which means an indirect nerf to destroyers damage in PvP top.
But my guess si that, like in the past, good GWFs will find new builds and rotations to make good use of the new weapons they will gwf, lazy players will complain about sprint/ whatever else Going OP cause it's easier than learning to counter the enemy moves, and everything will start over and over again...
umm try using FLS and then takedown it still works to land an IBS in pvp, destroyer wont be as tanky as it was in mod 3 most will go sent now.
correct new builds will be found , play style will change but GWF will have to move too much like ranged class , which is not GWF class is made for .
as for build it will mainly revolve around sent and movement and SM path instead of IV since it is useless till further notice from DEV.
and this new build be mainly for surviving rather than killing. which is what pisses me off. we will be put in same category as DC , but DC can heal , we will just run around and prone and try to land IBS. the only GWF who will be able to land there IBS are plyers with net speed below 100ms, any more than that and player will be able to dodge. the stun duration havent been consider for players with 300ms+.
thats currently possible in live after mod 4 FLS dmg is nerfed by 38% i think and it CD is still 15-17 sec depending on recovery , with stuns and not prone so it still is same as florish so useless .
Before IV was introduced, this was what you'd get if you tried to 1v1 a BiS CW with just flourish and takedown:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIH6FNiwbxI
And i pretty much recall all the other elite players commenting on this video how the GWF was using wrong setup and wrong rotation. Plus, keep in mind this video shows an old regeneration monster. Nowadays, GWFs do not regenerate like that.
Against permas it's usually the same. Flourish is slow, so 99% of the times the enemy will be dodging while you use it. Now the point is if by luck the timing of the enemy dodge will not match the latency and allow the power to follow him and hit him when he comes out of the dodging/ teleporting animation. Else, your flourish would crush on the enemy's immunity. Takedown is easily dodged, usually.
The other problem is that the base stun is 2 seconds, but then we have tenacity and racial traits for halflings or gear/ passives, further reducing CC duration. Animations on flourish, takedown and IBS should then be changed to be much faster.
I also used to go for a takedown/regenerating strike/IBS combo before tenacity (after tenacity, restoring strike healing was cut in half). Simple reason was, i liked the challenge of catching the enemy with just takedown, and RS animation linked wonderfully with IBS (you use RS and then hit IBS exactly at the end of RS animation when the sword is raised above the GWF's head, you cut all the part of animation from IBS where the toon raises the sword above his head) so i was able to hit with RS and IBS while the enemy was prone from takedown.
With tenacity, prone time was greatly reduced and healing from RS was cut in half, sadly.
Would be even less possible to use it with a 2 seconds stun on takedown...
Stunning flourish is on instigator tree and you would need to sacrifice too much to get it.
Perma TRs, if good, are usually in ITC when fighting melee, then they are rolling away (immune) and going stealth. Pretty much you should be able to time flourish, taking lag into account, to follow them and hit when their rolling animation is over. Or, else, be able to guess how the TR moves during stealth (many of them just bunnyhop in circle, but not the good ones), sprint where he is and flourish. But any half good TR is able to quietly time his dodge roll immunity to match the slow animation of flourish...
Just guessing based on my experience, but it seems to me just a lot of stuff together. Survivability+ CC+ damage all nerfed a lot... We'll see.
I like to adapt, just hope we will be left with enough weapons to fight.
What game are YOU playing? GWF is stealing GF's role? And what role is that exactly?
the stuns def give you enough time to land a takedown into an ibs it works on preview server. also the damage needed a reduction for GWF because it was never scaled corrrectly when you guys got the IV path so now it should be doing that damage like it should have been in the first place thats why it feels like a nerf.
Not sure about what's been previously told, I'll just jump on this from my experience: We have done CN 4/4 with a rainbow group on Live, numerous times. It took more time and everyone was above 16k gs, but if anything it was never that impossible as people make it to be. I don't know about preview though, so I can't have an opinion on that.
having 19% tenacity, that means your Damage resistance increasese with 19% and that means it's 19% out of 45% damage resistance for example or 3k+ defense... i think ..
tenacity is ,multiplicative index. if u have 40% DR and 20% tenacity and the other player has 25% armor penetration
the dmg reduction = base dmg*(1-.4+.25)*(1-.2)
u can add other DR to ur base DR but cant add tenacity to it.
He's assuming every GWF will take the 15% Heroic feat (5 feat points) just like he's assuming every GWF will wait until their determination bar is only full before they use Unstoppable.
The only problem is, you can't open a combo with takedown. It's an easily dodged move. You can try, but every good TR/ CW/ HR will just kite you forever if you try to use takedown as your first move. That's why chain prone combos were the way to go, with a ranged stun/ prone as an opening. Way before IVs and threat rush on GWFs, the good ones used to slot Roar to face perma TRs and CWs.
Flourish is too slow and easily dodged. Plus, it will at best connect following a dodging enemy. Which means, after that you've to sprint at the enemy and start takedown. With tenacity and CC resistances it's hardly enough to chain stun. Same for FLS.
This means that a GWF will need to just try and land a takedown directly, to follow then with IBS. I'm pretty sure any good CW/ TR is laughing now, thinking at how easy it'll be to kite GWFs like that, with them trying to catch them with a direct takedown...Lol
Also, when i say takedown is dodged, i don't mean the full dodge that sends it to a 3 seconds shorter cooldown. I mean that it crushes on the enemy dodge immunity and goes to a full cooldown.
We'll see...
No other class has Unstoppable tho.
Everytime you read another class complaining about GWFs, they always focus on what must be taken away or what is OP, and tend to forget what is left when nerfs are applied.
Their main problem is "it's too easy with Roar/ FLS/ Threat Rush. Take away/ nerf these. Prones too. Take them away.
Ok.
Now, we have flourish. Which is so slow that a blind monkey could dodge it. Same for takedown, plus takedown does not have great range, just a short follow-up effect. And the shortened cooldown if it does not connect.
Too bad the problem of a flourish or a takedown, is not to conncect, but to be so slow that in a 1v1 situation any half-good CW-DC-TR-HR-GF can time his block/ immunity move to make them crush on it.
Plus, with just stuns, if you increase the range of flourish you still have the issue of GWFs reaching the enemy too late to land takedown. If you can't land takedown, you can't land IBS.
Now, i'm all in for "no prones" and no ranged stuns/ CC.
But in exchange, if you want it to be fair, IBS and Flourish must have 4x faster animations. Else it's the opposite problem: it's to easy for any other class to dodge them.
Funny thing is, you read people complaining cause using roar or FLS or Threat Rush is too easy and requires no skills, but on the other side they think that kiting a GWF that can only use very slowly animated moves that even a blind monkey can dodge, is all thanks to their amazing skills.
I'd say no increased range, just then make our moves as fast as a TR/ HR move so that it's not that easy to dodge our attacks.
Flourish need faster animation and CC immunity on cast
GWF are already plenty CC immune what with your new perma sprint(sprint giving cc immunity) and unstoppable are you kidding me that you want some more easy mode cheese that now your skills need to be cc immune to? no sorry but this idea is so beyond anything it's laughable if anything flourish could have its animation time increased so that it would benefit gwf and gf's and thats it. lol i cant believe your all suggesting to make you cc immune while casting it lol
I like how everyone talks about the new sprint. It's still bugged, will rubber-band wicked strike, and generally the added bonus does nothing for the GWF unless he's running around all the time, offering nothing to his group. Even in pvp the argument is funny, you'll have a class that can't kill anyone but might get away sometimes. Most of the times not though.
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Wait a minute! They did NOT take those away? Your argument is over abilities that were either "Bugged" or were way to good for a class that had a spammable "Unstoppable"
The GWF complaining about losing Roar on live is beyond ridiculous as its bugged to give an AOE 3 CC's in one!
FLS is no longer a prone in pvp, it still stuns the target you just don't get the extra delay time on them falling on their back animation prone... You will be fine, you will still have time to hit them.
Threatening Rush on a class with now ( 2 ) FREE CC immunities that are not encounters, really? You're going to complain? You and every other GWF no **** well it was abused to no end having an at will that hit for 5k damage and closed gaps was to good!
You will have to actually try harder now, instead of using bugged abilities and ranged prones, and exploiting an at will to close distance over and over you will need to use it on its 3 charge rotation.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
You don't even read what people write, seriously...You just keep repeating the same things even if they are wrong.
I said guys like you focus on what they want taken away and, knowing nothing about the class, try to "guess" what will happen.
Roar was not just "fixed", it was nerfed too. Originally it was meant to root the enemy. It was in the description. You get this? This was taken away entirely. So it's not a fix on something bugged, it's a fix+nerf. It was fixed (no more stun, no more going through CC immunities, no more silencing players), then it was NERFED with rooting effect taken away AND damage nerfed. So now it does even less damage and gives some determination depending on how many targets you hit. Useless in PvP (enemies never stay grouped) and arguably useful in PvE for Destroyers to keep Stacks of DP up. So GWFs do not complain about the FIXES, they complain cause Roar is getting nerfed to the ground with the original rooting effect taken away. You get it? Go read the Power description, cause it seems you don't even know that much.
Also, Unstoppable was not "spammable". As explained many times, if you lock a GWF in a CC rotation (any class can prone and CC) and use you encounters, he then goes unstoppable and you kite+ at wills, then again CC and encounters when he's out of unstoppable, he will go big and red few times. GWFs can "spam" Unstoppable only if bad players spam at-wills when they are normal, feeding their determination with minimum damage. It's been said multiple times already. End-game PvPers already said multiple times that GWFs are easy to cancel in end-game PvP. Only bad players keep repeating that "Unstoppable is spammable". It's spammable if you are a bad player, expecially after healing depression introduction. And this is a fact any end-game PvPer will confirm.
As we already said, FLS stun is NOT enough to land takedown or IBS. Did you test it? No. You "guess" it will be enough. It is not. 2 seconds stun get reduced a lot by tenacity and other stuff like racial traits and passives/ gear. So the GWF has like 1 second to get to the enemy using threat rush or sprint and then hit him. It is not enough.
You can link takedown and IBS still, but takedown as an opening move is easy to dodge, just like flourish.
The 2 "FREE CC immunities" you talk about are:
Unstoppable: It's not free. You take damage, lose HP, THEN you go unstoppable. So it's not free. Plus: in module 4, if you test it, determination gain is a lot slower. To make you understand: the GWF takes a ****LOAD of damage, then he can go unstoppable 4 seconds. It looks free to you only.
Sprint: again, as i said previously, it's the gap closer. Threat rush now has 3 charges with 9 seconds cooldown. So to close gaps against the multiple immunity dodges of CWs/ TRs/ HRs you will need to sprint. You sprint to close the gap OR to avoid being CCed. And you know, stamina is not "free" or infinite. It got increased by 40% even if now it is used for both defense AND gap closing. The meaning is: a GWF can close the gap without being CCed, but to use sprint as an immunity dodge is a completely different matter. Expecially since sprint is slower than other immunity dodges and has only damage reduction while TR/ HR/ CW/ DC dodges have damage IMMUNITY.
As said, however, stamina is not endless. It ends, so sprint is not "free". And GWFs are not ranged like CWs and HRs, and can't go stealth like TRs.
So your "free CC immunities" are not "free" at all. But you can keep repeating that nonsense to convince yourself.
The wrong thing you fail to understand is that playng GF and CW only you have a very limited insight of what a GWF can and cannot do, and you know nothing about how a HR vs GWF or GWF vs Perma-TR goes. And i can tell you, both classes are for sure laughing their asses off right now cause for them, in mdoule 4, vsing a GWF will be a kiting fest.
So, as i said, just to change you could stop your endless raging nonsense and actually start to focus on what will be really left and think about it.
As we said, GWFs will have:
- Less determination gain, which means, they will take more damage and go Unstoppable few times. Expecially considering how Unstoppable already is "delayed" when you get CC (you can't go Unstoppable for a short period of time). It's already like that on live.
- Less DR on Unstoppable for destroyers. Same DR on sentinels.
- Less damage, much less damage on sentinels due to the damage nerfs on many powers (30% less damage on takedown).
- More stamina, more sprint, but will need to be split into defensive use and gap closing use.
- 3 charges of threat rush, less mobility.
- No more Roar rooting effect (which was the intended effect originally described for the power), apart from all the fixes needed. So, no more roar in PvP since the rooting effect was why it was used in PvP to avoid being kited in module 1.
- No more prone on FLS, whic means along with tenacity and CC resistances, no more FLS-takedown chains. Put together with the above, no more ranged CC moves for GWFs on top of the reduced survivability and mobility.
- Flourish damage increased and stun increased. Animation still very slow and easily dodged if used to open.
- Takedown stun in place of prone, which means enemies can deflect IBS.
The way it is now, GWFs have less survivability, and lack an effective opening move to actually counter the kiting of other classes. Could be useful against CW the sprint CC immunity, but against semi-perma TRs or HRs it's a huge nerf. No effective ranged CC, less mobility and lack of an opening move to, say, catch a semi perma doing his usual ITC-dodge roll immunity-permastealth rotation.
The suggestion is still the same: reduce by 4 times the duration of flourish and IBS rotation. It's ok to take away chain prones/ chain CC combos, but not if then you leave the class with slow, easily dodgeable melee moves. On top of reduced survivability and mobility.