One thing I wasn't aware of is that with all base DR neutralized with RI and debuffs, your tenacity acts as a DR floor so at, say, 19% TeR your DR can't go any lower than 19%.
I have taken 90% damage even thought I had 19% DR from tenacity. So how do you explain that?
thats currently possible in live after mod 4 FLS dmg is nerfed by 38% i think and it CD is still 15-17 sec depending on recovery , with stuns and not prone so it still is same as florish so useless .
the stuns def give you enough time to land a takedown into an ibs it works on preview server. also the damage needed a reduction for GWF because it was never scaled corrrectly when you guys got the IV path so now it should be doing that damage like it should have been in the first place thats why it feels like a nerf.
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zankardMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If a regular geared rainbow party (around 14ks all members) can make CN 4/4 on Preview [i tryed 2 times with different groups and 0 success (with the first group, we couldn't pass from Valindra's pet)] , i will retract from everything i said here.
Not sure about what's been previously told, I'll just jump on this from my experience: We have done CN 4/4 with a rainbow group on Live, numerous times. It took more time and everyone was above 16k gs, but if anything it was never that impossible as people make it to be. I don't know about preview though, so I can't have an opinion on that.
I have taken 90% damage even thought I had 19% DR from tenacity. So how do you explain that?
What game are YOU playing? GWF is stealing GF's role? And what role is that exactly?
having 19% tenacity, that means your Damage resistance increasese with 19% and that means it's 19% out of 45% damage resistance for example or 3k+ defense... i think ..
the stuns def give you enough time to land a takedown into an ibs it works on preview server. also the damage needed a reduction for GWF because it was never scaled corrrectly when you guys got the IV path so now it should be doing that damage like it should have been in the first place thats why it feels like a nerf.
the latency in preview and live are diffrent , u have to count every possibility, with 20% control resist from tenacity+10% CR from abilty points +5% CR from artifact , thats the minimum any1 can get there CR from many things , and latency in live for large amount of players is 300ms+ (except players who r near the server location) it reduces stun duration less then 1 sec , now tell me what is the possibility of landing IBS?
having 19% tenacity, that means your Damage resistance increasese with 19% and that means it's 19% out of 45% damage resistance for example or 3k+ defense... i think ..
tenacity is ,multiplicative index. if u have 40% DR and 20% tenacity and the other player has 25% armor penetration
the dmg reduction = base dmg*(1-.4+.25)*(1-.2)
u can add other DR to ur base DR but cant add tenacity to it.
55% stamina reduction is just plain class breaking
lol so much this slot bravery and feat fast runner and fleat footed and this class can just run circles around anyone forever looks like the new meta will be sprint in blow cooldowns sprint in circles while cc immune come in repeat pop unstoppable when unstoppable ends keep running in circles lol. nice move devs if your gonna give GWF this unstoppable needs to be like 10-15% DR. what is the deal with trying to make these guys the ultimate tank and killing machine.
if we run around how will we kill? and its 40% not 55%
if we run around how will we kill? and its 40% not 55%
He's assuming every GWF will take the 15% Heroic feat (5 feat points) just like he's assuming every GWF will wait until their determination bar is only full before they use Unstoppable.
the stuns def give you enough time to land a takedown into an ibs it works on preview server. also the damage needed a reduction for GWF because it was never scaled corrrectly when you guys got the IV path so now it should be doing that damage like it should have been in the first place thats why it feels like a nerf.
The only problem is, you can't open a combo with takedown. It's an easily dodged move. You can try, but every good TR/ CW/ HR will just kite you forever if you try to use takedown as your first move. That's why chain prone combos were the way to go, with a ranged stun/ prone as an opening. Way before IVs and threat rush on GWFs, the good ones used to slot Roar to face perma TRs and CWs.
Flourish is too slow and easily dodged. Plus, it will at best connect following a dodging enemy. Which means, after that you've to sprint at the enemy and start takedown. With tenacity and CC resistances it's hardly enough to chain stun. Same for FLS.
This means that a GWF will need to just try and land a takedown directly, to follow then with IBS. I'm pretty sure any good CW/ TR is laughing now, thinking at how easy it'll be to kite GWFs like that, with them trying to catch them with a direct takedown...Lol
Also, when i say takedown is dodged, i don't mean the full dodge that sends it to a 3 seconds shorter cooldown. I mean that it crushes on the enemy dodge immunity and goes to a full cooldown.
He's assuming every GWF will take the 15% Heroic feat (5 feat points) just like he's assuming every GWF will wait until their determination bar is only full before they use Unstoppable.
every class gets CC immunity when they press shift and when GWF have it they have problem , if GWF starts running around , the amount of dmg done by GWF is quite negligible if he doesnt attack and then it will be easier for other class to heal if gwf dont attack and run , they all see the no. but never see wheteher its will be practically good for GWF or not , and if every GWF starts investing there points in stamina feat , they loose points in other , so ffs to gain stamina GWF will loose either offense or defense by fair amount , so dont start assuming everything.
Flourish problem is not range, but animation time.
Everytime you read another class complaining about GWFs, they always focus on what must be taken away or what is OP, and tend to forget what is left when nerfs are applied.
Their main problem is "it's too easy with Roar/ FLS/ Threat Rush. Take away/ nerf these. Prones too. Take them away.
Ok.
Now, we have flourish. Which is so slow that a blind monkey could dodge it. Same for takedown, plus takedown does not have great range, just a short follow-up effect. And the shortened cooldown if it does not connect.
Too bad the problem of a flourish or a takedown, is not to conncect, but to be so slow that in a 1v1 situation any half-good CW-DC-TR-HR-GF can time his block/ immunity move to make them crush on it.
Plus, with just stuns, if you increase the range of flourish you still have the issue of GWFs reaching the enemy too late to land takedown. If you can't land takedown, you can't land IBS.
Now, i'm all in for "no prones" and no ranged stuns/ CC.
But in exchange, if you want it to be fair, IBS and Flourish must have 4x faster animations. Else it's the opposite problem: it's to easy for any other class to dodge them.
Funny thing is, you read people complaining cause using roar or FLS or Threat Rush is too easy and requires no skills, but on the other side they think that kiting a GWF that can only use very slowly animated moves that even a blind monkey can dodge, is all thanks to their amazing skills.
I'd say no increased range, just then make our moves as fast as a TR/ HR move so that it's not that easy to dodge our attacks.
I just came from Test again and, right now, i think DEVs should make Flourish a ranged stun move like frontline surge. It should have the range of Creshendo (because is a single target stun instead of being a multi target stun like Front), prone the target BUT leaving GWF at the spot like it does right now, Make it CC inmune due is really easy to counter due its slowness and give the prone on Frontline Surge back, keeping other nerfs on this move
Flourish need faster animation and CC immunity on cast
Disagree on first, agree on second. Why? Flourish shouldnt be a "takedown" but its renplacement and to give SM path a range stun move like Surge. That is why i suggested CC inmunity, prone and ranged attack and bring prone on surge back.
GWF are already plenty CC immune what with your new perma sprint(sprint giving cc immunity) and unstoppable are you kidding me that you want some more easy mode cheese that now your skills need to be cc immune to? no sorry but this idea is so beyond anything it's laughable if anything flourish could have its animation time increased so that it would benefit gwf and gf's and thats it. lol i cant believe your all suggesting to make you cc immune while casting it lol
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zankardMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
GWF are already plenty CC immune what with your new perma sprint(sprint giving cc immunity) and unstoppable are you kidding me that you want some more easy mode cheese that now your skills need to be cc immune to? no sorry but this idea is so beyond anything it's laughable if anything flourish could have its animation time increased so that it would benefit gwf and gf's and thats it. lol i cant believe your all suggesting to make you cc immune while casting it lol
I like how everyone talks about the new sprint. It's still bugged, will rubber-band wicked strike, and generally the added bonus does nothing for the GWF unless he's running around all the time, offering nothing to his group. Even in pvp the argument is funny, you'll have a class that can't kill anyone but might get away sometimes. Most of the times not though.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited July 2014
Folks, if your comments are more discussionary in measure than straight feedback,
please use these discussion threads provided instead. Thanks!
We included each of these discussion threads as a link in the [ List ] sticky.
Flourish problem is not range, but animation time.
Everytime you read another class complaining about GWFs, they always focus on what must be taken away or what is OP, and tend to forget what is left when nerfs are applied.
Their main problem is "it's too easy with Roar/ FLS/ Threat Rush. Take away/ nerf these. Prones too. Take them away.
Ok.
Wait a minute! They did NOT take those away? Your argument is over abilities that were either "Bugged" or were way to good for a class that had a spammable "Unstoppable"
The GWF complaining about losing Roar on live is beyond ridiculous as its bugged to give an AOE 3 CC's in one!
FLS is no longer a prone in pvp, it still stuns the target you just don't get the extra delay time on them falling on their back animation prone... You will be fine, you will still have time to hit them.
Threatening Rush on a class with now ( 2 ) FREE CC immunities that are not encounters, really? You're going to complain? You and every other GWF no **** well it was abused to no end having an at will that hit for 5k damage and closed gaps was to good!
You will have to actually try harder now, instead of using bugged abilities and ranged prones, and exploiting an at will to close distance over and over you will need to use it on its 3 charge rotation.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Wait a minute! They did NOT take those away? Your argument is over abilities that were either "Bugged" or were way to good for a class that had a spammable "Unstoppable"
The GWF complaining about losing Roar on live is beyond ridiculous as its bugged to give an AOE 3 CC's in one!
FLS is no longer a prone in pvp, it still stuns the target you just don't get the extra delay time on them falling on their back animation prone... You will be fine, you will still have time to hit them.
Threatening Rush on a class with now ( 2 ) FREE CC immunities that are not encounters, really? You're going to complain? You and every other GWF no **** well it was abused to no end having an at will that hit for 5k damage and closed gaps was to good!
You will have to actually try harder now, instead of using bugged abilities and ranged prones, and exploiting an at will to close distance over and over you will need to use it on its 3 charge rotation.
You don't even read what people write, seriously...You just keep repeating the same things even if they are wrong.
I said guys like you focus on what they want taken away and, knowing nothing about the class, try to "guess" what will happen.
Roar was not just "fixed", it was nerfed too. Originally it was meant to root the enemy. It was in the description. You get this? This was taken away entirely. So it's not a fix on something bugged, it's a fix+nerf. It was fixed (no more stun, no more going through CC immunities, no more silencing players), then it was NERFED with rooting effect taken away AND damage nerfed. So now it does even less damage and gives some determination depending on how many targets you hit. Useless in PvP (enemies never stay grouped) and arguably useful in PvE for Destroyers to keep Stacks of DP up. So GWFs do not complain about the FIXES, they complain cause Roar is getting nerfed to the ground with the original rooting effect taken away. You get it? Go read the Power description, cause it seems you don't even know that much.
Also, Unstoppable was not "spammable". As explained many times, if you lock a GWF in a CC rotation (any class can prone and CC) and use you encounters, he then goes unstoppable and you kite+ at wills, then again CC and encounters when he's out of unstoppable, he will go big and red few times. GWFs can "spam" Unstoppable only if bad players spam at-wills when they are normal, feeding their determination with minimum damage. It's been said multiple times already. End-game PvPers already said multiple times that GWFs are easy to cancel in end-game PvP. Only bad players keep repeating that "Unstoppable is spammable". It's spammable if you are a bad player, expecially after healing depression introduction. And this is a fact any end-game PvPer will confirm.
As we already said, FLS stun is NOT enough to land takedown or IBS. Did you test it? No. You "guess" it will be enough. It is not. 2 seconds stun get reduced a lot by tenacity and other stuff like racial traits and passives/ gear. So the GWF has like 1 second to get to the enemy using threat rush or sprint and then hit him. It is not enough.
You can link takedown and IBS still, but takedown as an opening move is easy to dodge, just like flourish.
The 2 "FREE CC immunities" you talk about are:
Unstoppable: It's not free. You take damage, lose HP, THEN you go unstoppable. So it's not free. Plus: in module 4, if you test it, determination gain is a lot slower. To make you understand: the GWF takes a ****LOAD of damage, then he can go unstoppable 4 seconds. It looks free to you only.
Sprint: again, as i said previously, it's the gap closer. Threat rush now has 3 charges with 9 seconds cooldown. So to close gaps against the multiple immunity dodges of CWs/ TRs/ HRs you will need to sprint. You sprint to close the gap OR to avoid being CCed. And you know, stamina is not "free" or infinite. It got increased by 40% even if now it is used for both defense AND gap closing. The meaning is: a GWF can close the gap without being CCed, but to use sprint as an immunity dodge is a completely different matter. Expecially since sprint is slower than other immunity dodges and has only damage reduction while TR/ HR/ CW/ DC dodges have damage IMMUNITY.
As said, however, stamina is not endless. It ends, so sprint is not "free". And GWFs are not ranged like CWs and HRs, and can't go stealth like TRs.
So your "free CC immunities" are not "free" at all. But you can keep repeating that nonsense to convince yourself.
The wrong thing you fail to understand is that playng GF and CW only you have a very limited insight of what a GWF can and cannot do, and you know nothing about how a HR vs GWF or GWF vs Perma-TR goes. And i can tell you, both classes are for sure laughing their asses off right now cause for them, in mdoule 4, vsing a GWF will be a kiting fest.
So, as i said, just to change you could stop your endless raging nonsense and actually start to focus on what will be really left and think about it.
As we said, GWFs will have:
- Less determination gain, which means, they will take more damage and go Unstoppable few times. Expecially considering how Unstoppable already is "delayed" when you get CC (you can't go Unstoppable for a short period of time). It's already like that on live.
- Less DR on Unstoppable for destroyers. Same DR on sentinels.
- Less damage, much less damage on sentinels due to the damage nerfs on many powers (30% less damage on takedown).
- More stamina, more sprint, but will need to be split into defensive use and gap closing use.
- 3 charges of threat rush, less mobility.
- No more Roar rooting effect (which was the intended effect originally described for the power), apart from all the fixes needed. So, no more roar in PvP since the rooting effect was why it was used in PvP to avoid being kited in module 1.
- No more prone on FLS, whic means along with tenacity and CC resistances, no more FLS-takedown chains. Put together with the above, no more ranged CC moves for GWFs on top of the reduced survivability and mobility.
- Flourish damage increased and stun increased. Animation still very slow and easily dodged if used to open.
- Takedown stun in place of prone, which means enemies can deflect IBS.
The way it is now, GWFs have less survivability, and lack an effective opening move to actually counter the kiting of other classes. Could be useful against CW the sprint CC immunity, but against semi-perma TRs or HRs it's a huge nerf. No effective ranged CC, less mobility and lack of an opening move to, say, catch a semi perma doing his usual ITC-dodge roll immunity-permastealth rotation.
The suggestion is still the same: reduce by 4 times the duration of flourish and IBS rotation. It's ok to take away chain prones/ chain CC combos, but not if then you leave the class with slow, easily dodgeable melee moves. On top of reduced survivability and mobility.
The GWF will be harder, I agree but in comparison to other Melee he will still be king... You can filibuster or interpret what I say to justify your means all you want. The GWF has been a MONSTER for a long time! You are getting some nerfs, but you will still be king. You want survivability spec for it, the fact you guys could spec for survival and massive DPS was not WAI. You have the option to roll DPS , or Tank choose your path or decide on a hybrid build like everyone else.
Sorry if you take everything I say as anything but the mere truth, GWF are a wrecking force and had to much, now they will have some weakness heaven forbid!
I know what those subsequent classes can do to us the GF your castaway brothers and Yes, it sucks a good HR can completely nullify me. I have a block when thats gone I can Villains to try and gain ground unlike you that can Sprint or unstoppable. So in terms of GF vs HR and GWF vs HR you are still better!
Your suggested changes in the SM paragon would also benefit the GF as we too, are stuck with the same paragons remember...
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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zankardMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
ripyourlipsoff, seriously, just let it go, you are foul.
pando83, I don't get just how many times we have to repeat all those simple facts to everyone until they understand.
Yea well in another thread Pando said this! Heaven forbid you guys have a challenge.
Well I'm not going to defend someone just because I agreed with his last post here. But if anything, I wasn't talking about Live. I know GWF is pretty stong (but no, HRs are lame and ridiculously OP and if you can take one down easily he's not built properly) and perhaps need to be toned down, but instead of nerfing damage or defense (well they did, both) they go ahead and change the gameplay mechanics dramatically, for a much much worse outcome. The points pando83 made in this last post were all solid and that's on what I commented on.
Yea well in another thread Pando said this! Heaven forbid you guys have a challenge.
Yeah, and forbid you actually stop just rageposting and try to give useful feedback.
About your quote on me:
ow, i usually take down with my GWF most players easily, and usually can hold my own even against BiS players from other classes
the fact i can take down most players easily means just i have
strong attack
experience
and means my attack is good, usually.
Being a destroyer hybrid my attack power is usually enough to take down even tanky opponents. Which does not mean i am also very survivable or can tank multiple enemies. The thread was about a HR being able to tank me plus 1-2 other players, so it's quite obvious for me to talk about my attack.
So what you basically can read in my quote is that i have good attack and i am experienced enough to "hold my own" against BiS enemies (which, again, does not mean i win, just i can keep them occupied for long enough).
But obviously for you that is some kind of "i can beat anyone easily".
Please, stop trolling and, again, try to actually read what people say instead of writing your own conclusion.
Can you? So we can go back to feedback and don't have to clarify every wrong assumption you make in your own crusade against GWFs.
I am posting feedback in counter to yours, I too have Experience and a Strong attack, that's moot... You guys wont be happy until they revert your class to Faceroll again! It's nauseating
Destroyers shouldn't be able to be tanky, your a DPS class that does 40% more DPS then a tanky HR. You could go low DPS high survival too!
As far as HR I totally agree with you they're ridiculous atm, but that doesn't mean GWF need to be boosted!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I am posting feedback in counter to yours, I too have Experience and a Strong attack, that's moot... You guys wont be happy until they revert your class to Faceroll again! It's nauseating
Destroyers shouldn't be able to be tanky, your a DPS class that does 40% more DPS then a tanky HR. You could go low DPS high survival too!
As far as HR I totally agree with you they're ridiculous atm, but that doesn't mean GWF need to be boosted!
But you don't play it. There is a reason I don't post in the GF feedback threads. I don't play it and I don't have a good understanding of all the abilities and requirements of the class. You don't understand how the GWF works, how it's feats work, what gear it needs to make things work, what is required to play one well, how to counter one well.
But you don't play it. There is a reason I don't post in the GF feedback threads. I don't play it and I don't have a good understanding of all the abilities and requirements of the class. You don't understand how the GWF works, how it's feats work, what gear it needs to make things work, what is required to play one well, how to counter one well.
But you don't play it. There is a reason I don't post in the GF feedback threads. I don't play it and I don't have a good understanding of all the abilities and requirements of the class. You don't understand how the GWF works, how it's feats work, what gear it needs to make things work, what is required to play one well, how to counter one well.
Thats fair, however if the GF was facerolling everyone with ease for the last year, you would have some game play experience against them and see what their strengths / weaknesses were. So feedback is not just for the class and he whom plays it its also about the classes that play against it. Just like in this thread another user asks for buffs because of HRs...
You cannot deny GWF have been TOP DOG for the last year? I think there is a difference between you guys playing well, and slotting burst powers to destroy people in 3-4 hits! I think the class has become so complacent with being so powerful now, you will actually have to be tactful!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited July 2014
Simmer down please, before I have to end up sending half of this thread to the depths. Thanks!
Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl PWE Community Moderator
Thats fair, however if the GF was facerolling everyone with ease for the last year, you would have some game play experience against them and see what their strengths / weaknesses were. So feedback is not just for the class and he whom plays it its also about the classes that play against it. Just like in this thread another user asks for buffs because of HRs...
You cannot deny GWF have been TOP DOG for the last year? I think there is a difference between you guys playing well, and slotting burst powers to destroy people in 3-4 hits! I think the class has become so complacent with being so powerful now, you will actually have to be tactful!
Some changes to unstoppable were needed for pvp, however everything else is wrong. Good pvp'ers were able to dodge fls, takedown, and ibs with dodge or block. TR probably needed something. I would have just gone for a damage nerf or a charges nerf not both however. Have you actually watched the GWF and seen how long the animations are before they hit?
Comments
What game are YOU playing? GWF is stealing GF's role? And what role is that exactly?
the stuns def give you enough time to land a takedown into an ibs it works on preview server. also the damage needed a reduction for GWF because it was never scaled corrrectly when you guys got the IV path so now it should be doing that damage like it should have been in the first place thats why it feels like a nerf.
Not sure about what's been previously told, I'll just jump on this from my experience: We have done CN 4/4 with a rainbow group on Live, numerous times. It took more time and everyone was above 16k gs, but if anything it was never that impossible as people make it to be. I don't know about preview though, so I can't have an opinion on that.
having 19% tenacity, that means your Damage resistance increasese with 19% and that means it's 19% out of 45% damage resistance for example or 3k+ defense... i think ..
tenacity is ,multiplicative index. if u have 40% DR and 20% tenacity and the other player has 25% armor penetration
the dmg reduction = base dmg*(1-.4+.25)*(1-.2)
u can add other DR to ur base DR but cant add tenacity to it.
He's assuming every GWF will take the 15% Heroic feat (5 feat points) just like he's assuming every GWF will wait until their determination bar is only full before they use Unstoppable.
The only problem is, you can't open a combo with takedown. It's an easily dodged move. You can try, but every good TR/ CW/ HR will just kite you forever if you try to use takedown as your first move. That's why chain prone combos were the way to go, with a ranged stun/ prone as an opening. Way before IVs and threat rush on GWFs, the good ones used to slot Roar to face perma TRs and CWs.
Flourish is too slow and easily dodged. Plus, it will at best connect following a dodging enemy. Which means, after that you've to sprint at the enemy and start takedown. With tenacity and CC resistances it's hardly enough to chain stun. Same for FLS.
This means that a GWF will need to just try and land a takedown directly, to follow then with IBS. I'm pretty sure any good CW/ TR is laughing now, thinking at how easy it'll be to kite GWFs like that, with them trying to catch them with a direct takedown...Lol
Also, when i say takedown is dodged, i don't mean the full dodge that sends it to a 3 seconds shorter cooldown. I mean that it crushes on the enemy dodge immunity and goes to a full cooldown.
We'll see...
No other class has Unstoppable tho.
Everytime you read another class complaining about GWFs, they always focus on what must be taken away or what is OP, and tend to forget what is left when nerfs are applied.
Their main problem is "it's too easy with Roar/ FLS/ Threat Rush. Take away/ nerf these. Prones too. Take them away.
Ok.
Now, we have flourish. Which is so slow that a blind monkey could dodge it. Same for takedown, plus takedown does not have great range, just a short follow-up effect. And the shortened cooldown if it does not connect.
Too bad the problem of a flourish or a takedown, is not to conncect, but to be so slow that in a 1v1 situation any half-good CW-DC-TR-HR-GF can time his block/ immunity move to make them crush on it.
Plus, with just stuns, if you increase the range of flourish you still have the issue of GWFs reaching the enemy too late to land takedown. If you can't land takedown, you can't land IBS.
Now, i'm all in for "no prones" and no ranged stuns/ CC.
But in exchange, if you want it to be fair, IBS and Flourish must have 4x faster animations. Else it's the opposite problem: it's to easy for any other class to dodge them.
Funny thing is, you read people complaining cause using roar or FLS or Threat Rush is too easy and requires no skills, but on the other side they think that kiting a GWF that can only use very slowly animated moves that even a blind monkey can dodge, is all thanks to their amazing skills.
I'd say no increased range, just then make our moves as fast as a TR/ HR move so that it's not that easy to dodge our attacks.
Flourish need faster animation and CC immunity on cast
GWF are already plenty CC immune what with your new perma sprint(sprint giving cc immunity) and unstoppable are you kidding me that you want some more easy mode cheese that now your skills need to be cc immune to? no sorry but this idea is so beyond anything it's laughable if anything flourish could have its animation time increased so that it would benefit gwf and gf's and thats it. lol i cant believe your all suggesting to make you cc immune while casting it lol
I like how everyone talks about the new sprint. It's still bugged, will rubber-band wicked strike, and generally the added bonus does nothing for the GWF unless he's running around all the time, offering nothing to his group. Even in pvp the argument is funny, you'll have a class that can't kill anyone but might get away sometimes. Most of the times not though.
please use these discussion threads provided instead. Thanks!
We included each of these discussion threads as a link in the [ List ] sticky.
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Wait a minute! They did NOT take those away? Your argument is over abilities that were either "Bugged" or were way to good for a class that had a spammable "Unstoppable"
The GWF complaining about losing Roar on live is beyond ridiculous as its bugged to give an AOE 3 CC's in one!
FLS is no longer a prone in pvp, it still stuns the target you just don't get the extra delay time on them falling on their back animation prone... You will be fine, you will still have time to hit them.
Threatening Rush on a class with now ( 2 ) FREE CC immunities that are not encounters, really? You're going to complain? You and every other GWF no **** well it was abused to no end having an at will that hit for 5k damage and closed gaps was to good!
You will have to actually try harder now, instead of using bugged abilities and ranged prones, and exploiting an at will to close distance over and over you will need to use it on its 3 charge rotation.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
You don't even read what people write, seriously...You just keep repeating the same things even if they are wrong.
I said guys like you focus on what they want taken away and, knowing nothing about the class, try to "guess" what will happen.
Roar was not just "fixed", it was nerfed too. Originally it was meant to root the enemy. It was in the description. You get this? This was taken away entirely. So it's not a fix on something bugged, it's a fix+nerf. It was fixed (no more stun, no more going through CC immunities, no more silencing players), then it was NERFED with rooting effect taken away AND damage nerfed. So now it does even less damage and gives some determination depending on how many targets you hit. Useless in PvP (enemies never stay grouped) and arguably useful in PvE for Destroyers to keep Stacks of DP up. So GWFs do not complain about the FIXES, they complain cause Roar is getting nerfed to the ground with the original rooting effect taken away. You get it? Go read the Power description, cause it seems you don't even know that much.
Also, Unstoppable was not "spammable". As explained many times, if you lock a GWF in a CC rotation (any class can prone and CC) and use you encounters, he then goes unstoppable and you kite+ at wills, then again CC and encounters when he's out of unstoppable, he will go big and red few times. GWFs can "spam" Unstoppable only if bad players spam at-wills when they are normal, feeding their determination with minimum damage. It's been said multiple times already. End-game PvPers already said multiple times that GWFs are easy to cancel in end-game PvP. Only bad players keep repeating that "Unstoppable is spammable". It's spammable if you are a bad player, expecially after healing depression introduction. And this is a fact any end-game PvPer will confirm.
As we already said, FLS stun is NOT enough to land takedown or IBS. Did you test it? No. You "guess" it will be enough. It is not. 2 seconds stun get reduced a lot by tenacity and other stuff like racial traits and passives/ gear. So the GWF has like 1 second to get to the enemy using threat rush or sprint and then hit him. It is not enough.
You can link takedown and IBS still, but takedown as an opening move is easy to dodge, just like flourish.
The 2 "FREE CC immunities" you talk about are:
Unstoppable: It's not free. You take damage, lose HP, THEN you go unstoppable. So it's not free. Plus: in module 4, if you test it, determination gain is a lot slower. To make you understand: the GWF takes a ****LOAD of damage, then he can go unstoppable 4 seconds. It looks free to you only.
Sprint: again, as i said previously, it's the gap closer. Threat rush now has 3 charges with 9 seconds cooldown. So to close gaps against the multiple immunity dodges of CWs/ TRs/ HRs you will need to sprint. You sprint to close the gap OR to avoid being CCed. And you know, stamina is not "free" or infinite. It got increased by 40% even if now it is used for both defense AND gap closing. The meaning is: a GWF can close the gap without being CCed, but to use sprint as an immunity dodge is a completely different matter. Expecially since sprint is slower than other immunity dodges and has only damage reduction while TR/ HR/ CW/ DC dodges have damage IMMUNITY.
As said, however, stamina is not endless. It ends, so sprint is not "free". And GWFs are not ranged like CWs and HRs, and can't go stealth like TRs.
So your "free CC immunities" are not "free" at all. But you can keep repeating that nonsense to convince yourself.
The wrong thing you fail to understand is that playng GF and CW only you have a very limited insight of what a GWF can and cannot do, and you know nothing about how a HR vs GWF or GWF vs Perma-TR goes. And i can tell you, both classes are for sure laughing their asses off right now cause for them, in mdoule 4, vsing a GWF will be a kiting fest.
So, as i said, just to change you could stop your endless raging nonsense and actually start to focus on what will be really left and think about it.
As we said, GWFs will have:
- Less determination gain, which means, they will take more damage and go Unstoppable few times. Expecially considering how Unstoppable already is "delayed" when you get CC (you can't go Unstoppable for a short period of time). It's already like that on live.
- Less DR on Unstoppable for destroyers. Same DR on sentinels.
- Less damage, much less damage on sentinels due to the damage nerfs on many powers (30% less damage on takedown).
- More stamina, more sprint, but will need to be split into defensive use and gap closing use.
- 3 charges of threat rush, less mobility.
- No more Roar rooting effect (which was the intended effect originally described for the power), apart from all the fixes needed. So, no more roar in PvP since the rooting effect was why it was used in PvP to avoid being kited in module 1.
- No more prone on FLS, whic means along with tenacity and CC resistances, no more FLS-takedown chains. Put together with the above, no more ranged CC moves for GWFs on top of the reduced survivability and mobility.
- Flourish damage increased and stun increased. Animation still very slow and easily dodged if used to open.
- Takedown stun in place of prone, which means enemies can deflect IBS.
The way it is now, GWFs have less survivability, and lack an effective opening move to actually counter the kiting of other classes. Could be useful against CW the sprint CC immunity, but against semi-perma TRs or HRs it's a huge nerf. No effective ranged CC, less mobility and lack of an opening move to, say, catch a semi perma doing his usual ITC-dodge roll immunity-permastealth rotation.
The suggestion is still the same: reduce by 4 times the duration of flourish and IBS rotation. It's ok to take away chain prones/ chain CC combos, but not if then you leave the class with slow, easily dodgeable melee moves. On top of reduced survivability and mobility.
Sorry if you take everything I say as anything but the mere truth, GWF are a wrecking force and had to much, now they will have some weakness heaven forbid!
I know what those subsequent classes can do to us the GF your castaway brothers and Yes, it sucks a good HR can completely nullify me. I have a block when thats gone I can Villains to try and gain ground unlike you that can Sprint or unstoppable. So in terms of GF vs HR and GWF vs HR you are still better!
Your suggested changes in the SM paragon would also benefit the GF as we too, are stuck with the same paragons remember...
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
pando83, I don't get just how many times we have to repeat all those simple facts to everyone until they understand.
Yea well in another thread Pando said this! Heaven forbid you guys have a challenge.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Well I'm not going to defend someone just because I agreed with his last post here. But if anything, I wasn't talking about Live. I know GWF is pretty stong (but no, HRs are lame and ridiculously OP and if you can take one down easily he's not built properly) and perhaps need to be toned down, but instead of nerfing damage or defense (well they did, both) they go ahead and change the gameplay mechanics dramatically, for a much much worse outcome. The points pando83 made in this last post were all solid and that's on what I commented on.
Yeah, and forbid you actually stop just rageposting and try to give useful feedback.
About your quote on me:
the fact i can take down most players easily means just i have
strong attack
experience
and means my attack is good, usually.
Being a destroyer hybrid my attack power is usually enough to take down even tanky opponents. Which does not mean i am also very survivable or can tank multiple enemies. The thread was about a HR being able to tank me plus 1-2 other players, so it's quite obvious for me to talk about my attack.
So what you basically can read in my quote is that i have good attack and i am experienced enough to "hold my own" against BiS enemies (which, again, does not mean i win, just i can keep them occupied for long enough).
But obviously for you that is some kind of "i can beat anyone easily".
Please, stop trolling and, again, try to actually read what people say instead of writing your own conclusion.
Can you? So we can go back to feedback and don't have to clarify every wrong assumption you make in your own crusade against GWFs.
Destroyers shouldn't be able to be tanky, your a DPS class that does 40% more DPS then a tanky HR. You could go low DPS high survival too!
As far as HR I totally agree with you they're ridiculous atm, but that doesn't mean GWF need to be boosted!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
This does not happen on my GWF. Its a bonus DR from what you already have, so I would assume Sentinel's Aegis works the same.
But you don't play it. There is a reason I don't post in the GF feedback threads. I don't play it and I don't have a good understanding of all the abilities and requirements of the class. You don't understand how the GWF works, how it's feats work, what gear it needs to make things work, what is required to play one well, how to counter one well.
Have to agree with this.
Thats fair, however if the GF was facerolling everyone with ease for the last year, you would have some game play experience against them and see what their strengths / weaknesses were. So feedback is not just for the class and he whom plays it its also about the classes that play against it. Just like in this thread another user asks for buffs because of HRs...
You cannot deny GWF have been TOP DOG for the last year? I think there is a difference between you guys playing well, and slotting burst powers to destroy people in 3-4 hits! I think the class has become so complacent with being so powerful now, you will actually have to be tactful!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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Archmage Zebular of Mystryl
PWE Community Moderator
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Some changes to unstoppable were needed for pvp, however everything else is wrong. Good pvp'ers were able to dodge fls, takedown, and ibs with dodge or block. TR probably needed something. I would have just gone for a damage nerf or a charges nerf not both however. Have you actually watched the GWF and seen how long the animations are before they hit?