Feedback: thoughts about some preview PvP
- CW seems in a slightly better off position, overall
- the damage from Thaum spec is decent and adequate; the DoTs roll off each other and proccing stuff on your targets is pretty fun
- survivability has increased new Shield to the point where it's (almost) adequate for a robe-wearing class
- CC is decent even outside Oppressor, Orb of Imposition is working quite fine
These are pretty much the good points. As for the bad points... they were expressed by other CWs before me:
- Assailant requires NO SKILL to land. Guaranteed 4K+ hit.
- Shield requires NO SKILL to use. Guaranteed tankyness.
- Shard, oh my god, shard. You completely, utterly destroyed it. I got hit for less that 2K on my HR. This is RIDICULOUS. Shard is a high risk, high reward encounter. BUFF IT UP to where it was (pvp only), nothing less.
So what you did is basically take the skill out of PvP CW. Now you shoot stuff at the opponent and stuff will proc other stuff that hurts. Same is true for Shield. Can you please give CW better ACTIVE protections?!? Not passive absorption/mitigation, we're not tanks?
Example: Feat: Frost Shield. After a successful dodge of an enemy encounter or daily, you become encased in ice for 0.5 secs absorbing 33/66/100% incoming damage.
To be honest, this is quite a lazy move when it comes to CWs. You have made it easy even for inexperienced people to perform adequately. This is not OK.
Suggestion:
Please reward SKILLFUL PLAY by bringing Shard/Mastery where it is today: a hard hitting CC - if it lands. What am I talking about, shard only hits really hard on squishies, if you spec for it and if you're geared.
Agree 100%. Honestly I dont know why they dont just build a damage stacking capstone like other classes have instead of this "proc chance" Assailing Force thing...
GWF - builds stacks while unstoppable for up to 50% Dmg boost
GF - Builds stacks when taking damage for 25% dmg and crit boost
HRs - Mark a target for (20%?) damage boost.
Give CWs a nice damage boost capstone, and bring back shard damage - it actually took skill to use....
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kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
edited August 2014
Yeah, but it's still a 5 feat point penalty. Let's face it the PVE buy in Renegade is essentially 21 points in mod3. In mod4 it will be 25 points to get the necessary feats (phantasmal destruction, nightmare wizardry, and master arcane theft). Assuming you still buy the capstone you looking at a 5 point disadvantage over Thaum or Oppressor.
The alternative T1 feat, is one of the basically bad ideas - using an at-will at point blank. Just the thing to get you nuked pointlessly.
While the buff to MoC is nice, it's still a skill with little real use (even with the fixes to it and bufs). It's buggy, and inferior to OF. It has some niche uses, but I see little point in feating a Daily of dubious utility. The only reason I can see to feat a daily skill is if you are going to use it, every other rotation. Add in the slow casting animation and the slow casting time (ie waiting for the targeting circle to appear...), it's not going to see much use with my 2 CW's.
Feedback: thoughts about some preview PvP
- CW seems in a slightly better off position, overall
- the damage from Thaum spec is decent and adequate; the DoTs roll off each other and proccing stuff on your targets is pretty fun
- survivability has increased new Shield to the point where it's (almost) adequate for a robe-wearing class
- CC is decent even outside Oppressor, Orb of Imposition is working quite fine
These are pretty much the good points. As for the bad points... they were expressed by other CWs before me:
- Assailant requires NO SKILL to land. Guaranteed 4K+ hit.
- Shield requires NO SKILL to use. Guaranteed tankyness.
- Shard, oh my god, shard. You completely, utterly destroyed it. I got hit for less that 2K on my HR. This is RIDICULOUS. Shard is a high risk, high reward encounter. BUFF IT UP to where it was (pvp only), nothing less.
So what you did is basically take the skill out of PvP CW. Now you shoot stuff at the opponent and stuff will proc other stuff that hurts. Same is true for Shield. Can you please give CW better ACTIVE protections?!? Not passive absorption/mitigation, we're not tanks?
Example: Feat: Frost Shield. After a successful dodge of an enemy encounter or daily, you become encased in ice for 0.5 secs absorbing 33/66/100% incoming damage.
To be honest, this is quite a lazy move when it comes to CWs. You have made it easy even for inexperienced people to perform adequately. This is not OK.
Suggestion:
Please reward SKILLFUL PLAY by bringing Shard/Mastery where it is today: a hard hitting CC - if it lands. What am I talking about, shard only hits really hard on squishies, if you spec for it and if you're geared.
It<s most of all false: you actually have for CW only one config that can work on only one kind of opponen : melee opponen. and it for reason below:
1 you have no choice but thauma way mean assaillant.
2 to make assaillant proc enough you need spellplague enchant (or other enchant that actually do overtime damage). all Enchant like vorpal enchant are simply unuseable. If you don<t use that assaillant will not proc more than once between 20 second to 1 min depending of your spell.
3 last lvl of ice (freeze) can only proc with icy terrain or your at will icy ray. the rest of spell may stack ice but not freeze
4 CW have only 3 overtime spell: ice conduct,fanning the flamm and icy terrain.
5 So if you had shield you already have your 4 slot taken
6 As you can see there is no control spell there and any other spell and since buff power does not work with assaillant, using ray of enfeeblement is no use
Now let see the problem of this.
1 you have one build at all and 5 point that are in choice. (have to choose between, more dodge,little healing or little more effecient for shard )
2 this build is really poor for pve and do really low dammage .
3 this build is dedicate against melee fighting in pvp and have nothing for ranged class + need to be in close fight. problematic in domination match since you will be probably nuked way before landing a single hit due to the poor def you have.
4 even for the passive power you are quite limited since you need also the passiv that activate combustion on crit of ice power to make sure having an extra 16-20 hit to proc assaillant
5 it an over time system for both dammage and control that mean it not effective in pvp group but also depend of your oponen nuking capacity.
Any other build as those actually in live hav more than hard time (thauma old build is simply no more) and renegade build is same as live with around 20-30% less damage.
So to resume. it<s a one way, one build, one feat, one enchant,one kind of target, one kind of play(PVP)
edit: it also have huge weakness if player even gwf and gf use their brain a little
edit this is as the current state without last annouced change putted on test server
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
I'm a bit confused by the need to make such serious changes to the CW damage output. Quite frankly, CWs SHOULD have much higher damage output than other characters. I played D&D for many years, and playing a wizard was similar to how it had been in Neverwinter with the current CW setups. You have a really had time at lower levels, and once you have a fully geared and upgraded wizard, things drop easily. My D&D wizards could ALWAYS kill things much easier than the other classes, that why parties would focus on keeping the wizard alive.
After putting 7 months into my CW and getting her to 16.3k GS, and finally getting to a point where I have a strong DSP, I was so disheartened by playing on the preview server I almost outright quit Neverwinter. My rotation (CoI tab, SoEA, ST, and SS) is no longer viable on the preview server. Quite frankly, this is insulting and ridiculous. My character is better named of enchants and companions in Mod 3 that fully geared in Mod 4. That is NOT balancing.....It's a disaster.
Your proposed changes with such drastic reductions in damage and control are making it so the CW has less flexibility in builds, and is going to force many of us with great characters to completely rework what has become fun to play. As such, it will be significantly less fun. And that means I will spend fewer dollars, or maybe even quit. Also, by changing so many things after I have invested so much time into my character reflects very poorly on how PerfectWorld treats their customers. Believe me when I say that this will influence what games I choose to play in the future.
Regarding the degree of "nerf" to my personal CW, I issue an open invitation to all developers to come and do a few runs with me in both Mod 3, and on the preview and see exactly what the changes do. You're taking the fun out of Neverwinter, and as such will end up with a decreased customer base.
Kreg (16.3k CW)
Quite frankly, these are exactly the reason why playing a non-caster sucked in D&D before 4e, as it does in many dungeons in NWO on live when you go with CWs and GWF that make everybody else feel useless. 4e (which is the base for Neverwinter) changed that and by the looks of the introductory PDF 5e is going the same way (you can really see how they went out of their head to avoid caster dominance).
CWs already bring control to the game, which is a great asset for the group. Damage should be the area of others (TR, Archer and Melee Rangers, Warlocks and GWFs). CWs should not be better single-target damage dealers than TRs or Combat HRs. They should be more AoE and control focused. I´ve been running approximately thirty dungeons on preview so far, some of them with CWs and some without and my feeling is that CWs are now closer to what they should be. Still powerful, still able to provide control and area damage but not the uber-gods we have seen in the last months.
On live everybody would always prefer a CW to a TR or DPS Ranger (Nature and Trapper are different animals) when fighting Valindra and that´s plain wrong. On preview a DPS Ranger is a good alternative to a CW in the final fight (never had the chance to do a Dungeon with TRs on preview unfortunately, so I can´t rate them (the fact that there was no change to TRs probably meant that TR players were not really interested in losing time on preview only to provide benchmarks to others. And when I say it is an alternative I mean that the CW can still do his job and be valuable but it will not overshadow others.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
And when I say it is an alternative I mean that the CW can still do his job and be valuable but it will not overshadow others. [/COLOR]
This is a real problem. The CW SHOULD overshadow others when it comes to damage. In what D&D game or almost any other fantasy game does an archer do as much damage as a high powered wizard?
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
This is a real problem. The CW SHOULD overshadow others when it comes to damage. In what D&D game or almost any other fantasy game does an archer do as much damage as a high powered wizard?
in D&D 4e definitely and in 5e most likely (though the PHB will come out only in a few days, but looking at the free PDF the wizard is not an heavy single-target damage dealer). And a Melee Ranger does far more. It is called "Control" wizard, not "Nuclear Bomb" wizard. Kudos to Devs for understanding that. By the way I think they are doing that also to give a common proposition across the D&D universe, so that people transitioning from Tabletop to the CRPG or the other way around should not feel off-place.
I guess this is the best feedback I can give: the CRPG feeling is starting to match the TTRPG feeling closer. Strikers (DPS classes) do more damage, Controllers (basically the CW and Trapper in NWO) have more control than others, Defenders (the GF) feel more "defending" (had a great experience yesterday with Lostmauth when one of our main GFs in the guild joined us for the first time on preview when we tested the final fight with and without the use of Into the Fray). They still have to find a neat place for Rogues and Clerics but they already said they are going to tackle them later on.
And a big part of the change in feeling is due to the changes to the CW.
The only thing that I don´t like is that due to the constant whining of PvPers they are starting to go back on the intial changes too much.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
CWs already bring control to the game, which is a great asset for the group. Damage should be the area of others (TR, Archer and Melee Rangers, Warlocks and GWFs). CWs should not be better single-target damage dealers than TRs or Combat HRs. They should be more AoE and control focused. I´ve been running approximately thirty dungeons on preview so far, some of them with CWs and some without and my feeling is that CWs are now closer to what they should be. Still powerful, still able to provide control and area damage but not the uber-gods we have seen in the last months.
On live everybody would always prefer a CW to a TR or DPS Ranger (Nature and Trapper are different animals) when fighting Valindra and that´s plain wrong.
The problem is not how many damage a CW but how dongeon are builded. with the amount of ads that are appear AOE damage are practicaly always at full target shot. An AOE power should provide more damage than a single target power when you hit 2 mob or more. gentleman put the ratio at 1.6. the problem that for trying to solve that for CW, they drop most AOE damage spell as shard to a lvl that when hit max target it provide same damage amount as other dps class with single target hit (ex: shard max hit 5 target: 3K *5 = 15k damage) but to maintain the 1.6 ratio then they also reduce single target power for wizard. it lead to have a class that hit less than other. What the problem then, well simply this class is already the weakest in defense. then they give more control to compensate ok well. but then give other class gf and gwf 3 second stun on their base power . it actually over any of the base time of any of CW spell (shard 2.5 second, entrangling force and steal time 2 second, the rest 1 second). for pve stun or prone doesn t change a thing since mob stop moving and attack in both case.
The mutli CW part was an other problem that have nothing to do with the damage but due to the fact that debuf power coming from multi CW where stacking. it no more the case.Ex if i<m the only CW on party i<m debuf target with ice conduct and ray of enfeeblement. next shot for all party have damage *2 so to speak if everyone use a 10-20k shot at that moment it give a damage summ of 100-200k. if you take 5 CW doing the same damage are *6 (1+5*1)it give 300-600k on next shot. And with control 5 CW were able to control all ads but this part can be done by a multi class group when there is less ads.
And if you say that TR and combat HR should have better single power damage ok but in opposite they should not have better defense than CW. that a basis of making choice the highest offense class should have the lowest defense and opposite and a class that have both lowest DPS and lowest defense should have something to compensate and it is suppose to be control but even here due to how CW control work, due to immun everywhere and due to the fact that at least 2 other class have better control time than us it neither compensate. the only thing that actually still give some illusion on pvp part on test server is the fact that GWF and GF is that most of those who come to test those class does not think neither try adjustment in both equip and stat to make adjust to their change and to see how to optimise their character and playstile but when the fiew that use their brain will post config it will be end. (ex for GWF use small run and mix it with inflexible and you have a perma CC immun not stay on ctrl until your run bar is down).
So to resume if dongeon where the only thing provided by the game, it would have been ok but it is not the only part and i would say it even not the major part for most player. (solo part is for me the major part followed by pvp and then only dongeon)
For exemple in my case here how it pass: 1 2 or 3 PVP domi match to do daily, then if i have time I,m doing or a small run in the ring of terror and/or the daily quest in IWD and most of time it stay here since i<m working and i have to get up tomorrow.
By the way i<m tired of this and since the last announced point by GC will be the last change due to the short time remain before V4 So there is no more need to speak about right and wrong.IF DEV and non CW player are right well CW will remain but if result give a broken or nearly broken class as many CW player think there will be massiv dissmiss from this class (by leaving game or changing character). that will lead to react point from dev to correct and then you will be back on the beggining point of this mess (those two point are really what is actually in mind of 80% at least of CW player that i spoke with)
in D&D 4e definitely and in 5e most likely (though the PHB will come out only in a few days, but looking at the free PDF the wizard is not an heavy single-target damage dealer). And a Melee Ranger does far more. It is called "Control" wizard, not "Nuclear Bomb" wizard. Kudos to Devs for understanding that. By the way I think they are doing that also to give a common proposition across the D&D universe, so that people transitioning from Tabletop to the CRPG or the other way around should not feel off-place.
I guess this is the best feedback I can give: the CRPG feeling is starting to match the TTRPG feeling closer. Strikers (DPS classes) do more damage, Controllers (basically the CW and Trapper in NWO) have more control than others, Defenders (the GF) feel more "defending" (had a great experience yesterday with Lostmauth when one of our main GFs in the guild joined us for the first time on preview when we tested the final fight with and without the use of Into the Fray). They still have to find a neat place for Rogues and Clerics but they already said they are going to tackle them later on.
And a big part of the change in feeling is due to the changes to the CW.
The only thing that I don´t like is that due to the constant whining of PvPers they are starting to go back on the intial changes too much.
If you want to start apply the rule of apply it all and not just take the part you want. if you apply rule completly wizard(not control wizard) will effectivly nuke every thing in both pve and pvp and that because of two things. 1 the limit of AOE spell is the area and not: area + max target amount. all target inside the area will take effect. The second point that absolutly non existant here is the adaptability, wizard available spell are far from being limited by what we have now in this game. the main and major point of a wizard is what to choose on his spell choice to adapt the situation also where are defensive spell.Where is invisible spell
Maelstrom of chaos:
Increase AoE radius
Increase the maximum target affected (to compensate the change of Arcane Singularity)
Increase the prone time
Suppress the 50% Action Point loss when you cancel your casting.[/COLOR]
That's exactly what should be done to MoC. I'm willing to give it a chance, it crits nice now. But you wouldn't even catch a mouse in its tiny aoe. And if you cancel to re-position you loose 50% AP. I think this AP loss from cancelling MoC wasn't just noticed when new dodge mechanics was introduced. So there we are reminding you Devs that MoC needs update due to new dodge system.
Replace the most useless bonus with this (Renegades players can tell you which one to choose):
All encounters on cool down are reduce by a number of seconds.
It could make renegade to be the path for those who like to be quick, to have burst damage, to play strategic (You will need to cast your encounters at the right time ...)
This! Since we can't re-do the damage nerf, out of all possible things that could make Renegade a choice to consider is to give its capstone faster encounter casting ability. Cap-stone that reduces CD, ICD and casting time on all at wills, dailies and encounters. This would make renes unique, could make up a bit for damage loss (unless CW will use control abilities only), and Renegade would be interesting in PvP again. Otherwise every one who likes both PvE and PvP will have to go thauma way because renegade has no place in PvP: can't control the way Oppressor can, can't Dps the way that thauma can. If we could at least have capstone of some practical use, that would make us faster casters, I'd consider it fun to play. Hell, I'd even try shard again.
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
CW-class deal a lot of damage, have prones and a lot of control with any build to other classes. The class should have all these stats halved against players
yes CW have lot of thing as all other class does, and as same as other class we have to choose between those aspect. if you want control you don't deal many damage. it always a trade matter as most of class. it same thing as saying that GWF are the tankiest and the hardest hitting class and after fighting one sentinell and one destructor.
and prone we have only one spell and it is shard and if someone kil lyou with that you should rework your character. because damadge potential are almost nothing and because only explosion give a 2 second prone even the tab is no use. (the non explosion only prone for a short 1 sec.
And among the change annouced but not yet on server it is much a double edge sword since it is affecting the actual most viable build for pvp who depend on ice conduct icy terrain to do dammage (-16% dammage or -6 if you don't take the new feat)
The only class that stands a somewhat good chance of winning a control wizard that is as geared as the same control wizard is their overpowered contender, HR
can you formulate it in other way, i will help you: you are the only GF, GWF player that is not able to construct your class and that not skilled enough to not have a better or a 50/50 match again CW and that think that competing again one of the top actual CW pvp player (with the actual CW in live it really something) should end up with always your victory
can you formulate it in other way, i will help you: you are the only GF, GWF player that is not able to construct your class and that not skilled enough to not have a better or a 50/50 match again CW and that think that competing again one of the top actual CW pvp player (with the actual CW in live it really something) should end up with always your victory
You assumption is incorrect, i am a gf and i do beat control wizards on live, yes and i also beat cw on the test shard because i build a daily before the fight and then use my DC artifact to use villains menace back to back. if i dont kill the control wizard within that time period as in the deflection and their shield and dmg not resistance and a lot of my crit, if i do crit. I can win them. But after my daily wears off i cant frozen, and then repelled. and then while icy terrain is on the ground also helping to build their frost stacks, i get frozen again, mind you these aren't the shorter length cc from live, these are long CC. I cant block the frost stacks so i must attack and interrupt them but if though i do i will be forced to get into icy terrain and then i prone the control wizard with bull charge and i get frozen also. he stands up and uses entangling force on me because i am unfrozen and then he pops oppressive force and mind you while all of this is happening assailant force is ticking away at my health.
It has some factor to do with skills but the problem is that as a gf you cannot guard frost stacks and now that the cc is so long, once you are caught you are dead. it is a very easy fight for a control wizard. You seem angry but i know how good i am. i pay attention to everything and dont let the control wizard even dodge my attacks. the only way to win is to get a huge burst on the control wizard with villains menace but that doesnt happen often because of shield and i crit for 3k as conqueror.
Listen you can lie and try to say i suck but i know i dont. I have found out that i can never kill a control wizard with just one daily. i did to build and use 2 dailies back to back for cc immunity.
AND WITH ALL THESE HAPPENING SEVERE REACTION IS PUNTING ME BACK MAILES AWAY.
You assumption is incorrect, i am a gf and i do beat control wizards on live, yes and i also beat cw on the test shard because i build a daily before the fight and then use my DC artifact to use villains menace back to back. if i dont kill the control wizard within that time period as in the deflection and their shield and dmg not resistance and a lot of my crit, if i do crit. I can win them. But after my daily wears off i cant frozen, and then repelled. and then while icy terrain is on the ground also helping to build their frost stacks, i get frozen again, mind you these aren't the shorter length cc from live, these are long CC. I cant block the frost stacks so i must attack and interrupt them but if though i do i will be forced to get into icy terrain and then i prone the control wizard with bull charge and i get frozen also. he stands up and uses entangling force on me because i am unfrozen and then he pops oppressive force and mind you while all of this is happening assailant force is ticking away at my health.
It has some factor to do with skills but the problem is that as a gf you cannot guard frost stacks and now that the cc is so long, once you are caught you are dead. it is a very easy fight for a control wizard. You seem angry but i know how good i am. i pay attention to everything and dont let the control wizard even dodge my attacks. the only way to win is to get a huge burst on the control wizard with villains menace but that doesnt happen often because of shield and i crit for 3k as conqueror.
Listen you can lie and try to say i suck but i know i dont. I have found out that i can never kill a control wizard with just one daily. i did to build and use 2 dailies back to back for cc immunity.
AND WITH ALL THESE HAPPENING SEVERE REACTION IS PUNTING ME BACK MAILES AWAY.
the main reason you are actually able to completly beat CW while having more difficult in test server as nothing to do with change neither assaillant. the main reason is the corrected bug about armor pen that is not apply for most of wizard spell on live . that why wizard have actually so much problem in live and why simply counting of damage resist to fight wizard to nullify damage from wizard. That mean you have to rethink your GF or GWF and stop counting exlusivly on DR to win and have easy fight, you have to rethink your build, you have to understand how CW power work, and you have also to rethink your campaign gift. i already find at least one way with GF to destroy some CW build (i really mean destroy with really big winning chance). But you have to find and also what you want to do with your build
if you not get it 1000 80% DR on live with let say 25% armor pen from CW = 1000*(1-0.8) =200
same in test with armor pen working: 1000*(1-0.8+0.25)=450.
When you see some players are worrying about fighting with CW, that means the change to CW is in the right direction!
Finally, Control Wizard's title is starting to mean something. Good job, GC!
yup and the last change not implement yet on test server are not big change and will more give to renegade than the two other. Once the bug corrected on alacrity(opressor way t4) it will give really 3 differents kind of playing with the non damage full control opressor, the over time damage thauma and the one shot crit debuf renegade and each will be strong against some build but more vulnerable agains other kind of build
When are the latest changes to CW's going to the preview shard? As it stands now, my renegade is dead and a thaum does half the damage my renegade does on live. Both are unacceptable. I am eager to test the changes and decide whether to continue investing any more time into my Wizard. Update please.
When are the latest changes to CW's going to the preview shard? As it stands now, my renegade is dead and a thaum does half the damage my renegade does on live. Both are unacceptable. I am eager to test the changes and decide whether to continue investing any more time into my Wizard. Update please.
This update is primarily to test some performance and stability changes in a more live and busy environment. There is still currently a planned update for later this week that will have other gameplay and polish fixes.
So probably tonight or tomorrow .
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited August 2014
Hopefully soon, because they're a pretty substantial change to everything.
They should have good cc, but they shouldnt be tanky, hit hard, and have good cc.
yup and they aren't, if we want good cc we have to take oppressor and control feat that not do damage, tanky sorry but we are not tanky not at all shield only give a little more def but mean 1 spell blocked, hit hard mean using spell that hit hard and are poor or no control spell and imply to build or the actual thauma with over time spell that will be good against melee or the future renegade that will be better against ranged with one shot high crit spell. you are simply actually doing a melting pot of the 3 tree available in CW and simply apply a reasonning that we can take all the 3 tree at once
Yeah in module 4 you are probably going to have to think about using Thaumaturge for damage or Oppressor for control , there are a couple of changes coming this week hopefully that might increase Renegade DPS quite a lot but Shard is not going to be adjusted anymore unfortunately.
I've heard new EotS will help Renegades. Can someone explain to me how?
I imagine it will just increase their damage output but I agree that it probably won't be enough to make you choose Renegade over Thaum , did they add a patch last night with the EotS and Storm spell changes or didn't it go up yet? I wouldn't mind trying the changes out just to see.
Gcrush mentioned that the reason this encounter was nerfed is due to the fact that shard outperformed several encounters in many situations on Live and is essentially BiS or always a better option than slotting a single target encounter at times when single target powers should be better. With the nerf, the encounter has been taken to a complete opposite end of the spectrum, an extreme low, where shard is never a better option in place of another single target or aoe encounter.
Actually not that much.
SotEA is currently the only encounter power that provides AoE prone for an amazing time. On PvP if you use it on tab you can provide the same damage as any other power on single target, such as Chill Strike.
In my opinion the problem with this power right now is that using it on tab makes you feel like it's just "another power" and not "The Power in the Mastery". It feels unworthy to use on PvP because the CD is too long and consumes too much of our tab mechanic potential, while if you use it in a normal slot it's terrible to be managed on PvP and consumes too much time to be finalized on PvE for such a low reward.
In my opinion, I don't feel like this power lacks on damage if you use it properly, the problem is that it takes too much time to do so and if you're unlucky it can be useless due to Control Immunity.
My suggestion is to make this power on normal encounter slots be like the Mastery version, and in the Mastery slot... idk.
We all have our opinions on the planned changes, but I'd suggest we test them first, parse some combats against different classes + PvE.
My surface impression of it: The powerful EotS should be Renegade-specific and accessible through feats. As it looks now, it's obvious that MoF is behind. But then again, Smolder procs Assailant. Is it worth choosing MoF over Spellstorm? Probably not. Is the crit boost from the new EotS worth choosing Renegade over Thaum? Probably not. With Magic Missile and RoF dealing the same damage, who would willingly choose Renegade over Thaum?
My surface impression of it: The powerful EotS should be Renegade-specific and accessible through feats. As it looks now, it's obvious that MoF is behind. But then again, Smolder procs Assailant. Is it worth choosing MoF over Spellstorm? Probably not. Is the crit boost from the new EotS worth choosing Renegade over Thaum? Probably not. With Magic Missile and RoF dealing the same damage, who would willingly choose Renegade over Thaum?
I'm not an expert of MoF but, doesn't the damage debuff of Swath of Destruction benefit all your party?
If yes, if the 15% debuff of it was increased through a Renegade feat it would be incredibly useful in a group.
The real killer for MoF is the recent buff to Eye of the Storm. It's pretty difficult to justify giving up 6 seconds of 100% crit chance at the start of every combat. Combine it with the necessity of running Orb of Imposition and I don't think anyone will be running MoF in PvP any more. Which is a real shame as I love that paragon.
Yeah, but it should never be about nerfing one paragon to balance the other (or nerfing one class to balance another).
MoF just needs to be more viable by adding more options to add smoulder if we can't slot Critical Conflagration.
FtF is the easiest option for this as it doesn't currently add smolder unless assigned to TAB. On live it's a nuke ability off TAB, and a nuke + smolder add on TAB; but on test it's not a nuke at all (with the 33% damage reduction and 22 second cool-down increase); so basically it is a smolder add on TAB and that's it; and off TAB its a waste of an encounter slot all together. But there are much more viable options for the TAB encounter now, which means that slotting FtF all together is a waste of time (because it doesn't nuke or add smolder if not slotted into TAB). If it got reverted back to live, + added smolder off TAB, we would still be less DPS then spell storm.
SB is fine for PvE, but for PvP it's not viable as a skill as we need to use RoF. So basically there isn't much point being a MoF in PvP anymore as we have to cripple ourselves in one way or another.
Examples that i've used (using Thaum):
TAB: FtF
Encounters: Shield, CoI, Choke
Features: CC and SoD
I found that my survivability here was lacking. Shield off TAB isn't a great option, and choke without the new improved orb of imposition is pretty weak. Basically all you do here is smolder, coi and hope that assailing kills them. This is probably the most viable MoF option at this stage.
TAB: Shield
Encounters: FtF, CoI, Choke
Features: CC and SoD
I found here my survivability went up with shield on TAB. I had to rely on critical hits to add smolder here (via CC), but that's a gamble. Again, choke without orb doesn't give enough control and my damage was pretty weak, and i relied on assailing again.
TAB: Shield
Encounters: FtF, CoI, Choke
Features: SoD and Orb
Survivability was still constant with the last. Control went up because of the slotted Orb, which was fantastic. No way to add smolder though with this set-up though, so no point.
TAB: Shield
Encounters: FtF, CoI, Choke
Features: CC and Orb
Survivability was still constant with the last. Control went up because of the slotted Orb, which was fantastic. Smolder adding was again though critical hits, so a gamble, but smolder was a waste of time now (doesn't get the 45% increase or 15% debuff via SoD).
Basically we HAVE to slot CC and SoD. Which leaves us without any control, which all these updates are pretty much about. We don't have the burst damage of a spell storm, even with the new EoTS because storm spell is so good (it's probably a better DoT then smolder is LOL); and now we have to choose between smolder adding ability, or control. So what's the point of being a MoF then?
tldr; need to have ftf add smolder off TAB so MoF have better options for class features and/or revert back to live damage/cool-down.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited August 2014
You won't have to change very much at all. Most of the feats for a Thaumaturge are going to stay the same, and you'll probably just have to swap around a couple powers.
Just wanted to share some of my thoughts. I have to say, I'm feeling a little frustrated. Not that I blame the devs or anyone. They have a tough job to do and also seem to be understaffed.
That said, I think I am going to take a break from the CW for a while and maybe see what is in store for Mod 5 and check out some new builds. I'm a pve player and I was just getting the hang of how to properly play the class and run T2's. I wanted to get some Vizier pieces before Mod 4 hit but unfortunately the chests have been bugged for the last month. Add to that having to respec and maybe learn a new play style... it is kind of killing my enthusiasm.
Maybe I'll feel differently after testing this week.
Can I offer you a couple of suggestions? Copy your wizard over to preview and play there for a few days trying out different specs. Full respecs and race respecs are free on preview. If you chose to do this look me in game Houndaeer@cayapp or just @cayapp, I am pretty much always around. I am always up for running any thing.
Here is the link to copy a character over. Once you have copied it over start your NWO client. Let it start patching then stop it. Go to your directory for Perfectworld, find where it has playtest folder and copy over every thing from the folder named live. Then restart your client and it will only download what files have changed. This will save you from having to download everything again.
Unless you are truly just burnt out then by all means take a break, lord knows I take mini breaks all the time and then decide I need to take a break from drinking so back to play...LOL
Comments
Agree 100%. Honestly I dont know why they dont just build a damage stacking capstone like other classes have instead of this "proc chance" Assailing Force thing...
GWF - builds stacks while unstoppable for up to 50% Dmg boost
GF - Builds stacks when taking damage for 25% dmg and crit boost
HRs - Mark a target for (20%?) damage boost.
Give CWs a nice damage boost capstone, and bring back shard damage - it actually took skill to use....
The alternative T1 feat, is one of the basically bad ideas - using an at-will at point blank. Just the thing to get you nuked pointlessly.
While the buff to MoC is nice, it's still a skill with little real use (even with the fixes to it and bufs). It's buggy, and inferior to OF. It has some niche uses, but I see little point in feating a Daily of dubious utility. The only reason I can see to feat a daily skill is if you are going to use it, every other rotation. Add in the slow casting animation and the slow casting time (ie waiting for the targeting circle to appear...), it's not going to see much use with my 2 CW's.
It<s most of all false: you actually have for CW only one config that can work on only one kind of opponen : melee opponen. and it for reason below:
1 you have no choice but thauma way mean assaillant.
2 to make assaillant proc enough you need spellplague enchant (or other enchant that actually do overtime damage). all Enchant like vorpal enchant are simply unuseable. If you don<t use that assaillant will not proc more than once between 20 second to 1 min depending of your spell.
3 last lvl of ice (freeze) can only proc with icy terrain or your at will icy ray. the rest of spell may stack ice but not freeze
4 CW have only 3 overtime spell: ice conduct,fanning the flamm and icy terrain.
5 So if you had shield you already have your 4 slot taken
6 As you can see there is no control spell there and any other spell and since buff power does not work with assaillant, using ray of enfeeblement is no use
Now let see the problem of this.
1 you have one build at all and 5 point that are in choice. (have to choose between, more dodge,little healing or little more effecient for shard )
2 this build is really poor for pve and do really low dammage .
3 this build is dedicate against melee fighting in pvp and have nothing for ranged class + need to be in close fight. problematic in domination match since you will be probably nuked way before landing a single hit due to the poor def you have.
4 even for the passive power you are quite limited since you need also the passiv that activate combustion on crit of ice power to make sure having an extra 16-20 hit to proc assaillant
5 it an over time system for both dammage and control that mean it not effective in pvp group but also depend of your oponen nuking capacity.
Any other build as those actually in live hav more than hard time (thauma old build is simply no more) and renegade build is same as live with around 20-30% less damage.
So to resume. it<s a one way, one build, one feat, one enchant,one kind of target, one kind of play(PVP)
edit: it also have huge weakness if player even gwf and gf use their brain a little
edit this is as the current state without last annouced change putted on test server
Quite frankly, these are exactly the reason why playing a non-caster sucked in D&D before 4e, as it does in many dungeons in NWO on live when you go with CWs and GWF that make everybody else feel useless. 4e (which is the base for Neverwinter) changed that and by the looks of the introductory PDF 5e is going the same way (you can really see how they went out of their head to avoid caster dominance).
CWs already bring control to the game, which is a great asset for the group. Damage should be the area of others (TR, Archer and Melee Rangers, Warlocks and GWFs). CWs should not be better single-target damage dealers than TRs or Combat HRs. They should be more AoE and control focused.
I´ve been running approximately thirty dungeons on preview so far, some of them with CWs and some without and my feeling is that CWs are now closer to what they should be. Still powerful, still able to provide control and area damage but not the uber-gods we have seen in the last months.
On live everybody would always prefer a CW to a TR or DPS Ranger (Nature and Trapper are different animals) when fighting Valindra and that´s plain wrong.
On preview a DPS Ranger is a good alternative to a CW in the final fight (never had the chance to do a Dungeon with TRs on preview unfortunately, so I can´t rate them (the fact that there was no change to TRs probably meant that TR players were not really interested in losing time on preview only to provide benchmarks to others. And when I say it is an alternative I mean that the CW can still do his job and be valuable but it will not overshadow others.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Bring back shard damage or just take it out of the game altogether. It has no use as it is on preview, and we have nothing to replace it with.
This is a real problem. The CW SHOULD overshadow others when it comes to damage. In what D&D game or almost any other fantasy game does an archer do as much damage as a high powered wizard?
in D&D 4e definitely and in 5e most likely (though the PHB will come out only in a few days, but looking at the free PDF the wizard is not an heavy single-target damage dealer). And a Melee Ranger does far more. It is called "Control" wizard, not "Nuclear Bomb" wizard. Kudos to Devs for understanding that. By the way I think they are doing that also to give a common proposition across the D&D universe, so that people transitioning from Tabletop to the CRPG or the other way around should not feel off-place.
I guess this is the best feedback I can give: the CRPG feeling is starting to match the TTRPG feeling closer. Strikers (DPS classes) do more damage, Controllers (basically the CW and Trapper in NWO) have more control than others, Defenders (the GF) feel more "defending" (had a great experience yesterday with Lostmauth when one of our main GFs in the guild joined us for the first time on preview when we tested the final fight with and without the use of Into the Fray). They still have to find a neat place for Rogues and Clerics but they already said they are going to tackle them later on.
And a big part of the change in feeling is due to the changes to the CW.
The only thing that I don´t like is that due to the constant whining of PvPers they are starting to go back on the intial changes too much.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
The mutli CW part was an other problem that have nothing to do with the damage but due to the fact that debuf power coming from multi CW where stacking. it no more the case.Ex if i<m the only CW on party i<m debuf target with ice conduct and ray of enfeeblement. next shot for all party have damage *2 so to speak if everyone use a 10-20k shot at that moment it give a damage summ of 100-200k. if you take 5 CW doing the same damage are *6 (1+5*1)it give 300-600k on next shot. And with control 5 CW were able to control all ads but this part can be done by a multi class group when there is less ads.
And if you say that TR and combat HR should have better single power damage ok but in opposite they should not have better defense than CW. that a basis of making choice the highest offense class should have the lowest defense and opposite and a class that have both lowest DPS and lowest defense should have something to compensate and it is suppose to be control but even here due to how CW control work, due to immun everywhere and due to the fact that at least 2 other class have better control time than us it neither compensate. the only thing that actually still give some illusion on pvp part on test server is the fact that GWF and GF is that most of those who come to test those class does not think neither try adjustment in both equip and stat to make adjust to their change and to see how to optimise their character and playstile but when the fiew that use their brain will post config it will be end. (ex for GWF use small run and mix it with inflexible and you have a perma CC immun not stay on ctrl until your run bar is down).
So to resume if dongeon where the only thing provided by the game, it would have been ok but it is not the only part and i would say it even not the major part for most player. (solo part is for me the major part followed by pvp and then only dongeon)
For exemple in my case here how it pass: 1 2 or 3 PVP domi match to do daily, then if i have time I,m doing or a small run in the ring of terror and/or the daily quest in IWD and most of time it stay here since i<m working and i have to get up tomorrow.
By the way i<m tired of this and since the last announced point by GC will be the last change due to the short time remain before V4 So there is no more need to speak about right and wrong.IF DEV and non CW player are right well CW will remain but if result give a broken or nearly broken class as many CW player think there will be massiv dissmiss from this class (by leaving game or changing character). that will lead to react point from dev to correct and then you will be back on the beggining point of this mess (those two point are really what is actually in mind of 80% at least of CW player that i spoke with)
If you want to start apply the rule of apply it all and not just take the part you want. if you apply rule completly wizard(not control wizard) will effectivly nuke every thing in both pve and pvp and that because of two things. 1 the limit of AOE spell is the area and not: area + max target amount. all target inside the area will take effect. The second point that absolutly non existant here is the adaptability, wizard available spell are far from being limited by what we have now in this game. the main and major point of a wizard is what to choose on his spell choice to adapt the situation also where are defensive spell.Where is invisible spell
That's exactly what should be done to MoC. I'm willing to give it a chance, it crits nice now. But you wouldn't even catch a mouse in its tiny aoe. And if you cancel to re-position you loose 50% AP. I think this AP loss from cancelling MoC wasn't just noticed when new dodge mechanics was introduced. So there we are reminding you Devs that MoC needs update due to new dodge system.
This! Since we can't re-do the damage nerf, out of all possible things that could make Renegade a choice to consider is to give its capstone faster encounter casting ability. Cap-stone that reduces CD, ICD and casting time on all at wills, dailies and encounters. This would make renes unique, could make up a bit for damage loss (unless CW will use control abilities only), and Renegade would be interesting in PvP again. Otherwise every one who likes both PvE and PvP will have to go thauma way because renegade has no place in PvP: can't control the way Oppressor can, can't Dps the way that thauma can. If we could at least have capstone of some practical use, that would make us faster casters, I'd consider it fun to play. Hell, I'd even try shard again.
yes CW have lot of thing as all other class does, and as same as other class we have to choose between those aspect. if you want control you don't deal many damage. it always a trade matter as most of class. it same thing as saying that GWF are the tankiest and the hardest hitting class and after fighting one sentinell and one destructor.
and prone we have only one spell and it is shard and if someone kil lyou with that you should rework your character. because damadge potential are almost nothing and because only explosion give a 2 second prone even the tab is no use. (the non explosion only prone for a short 1 sec.
And among the change annouced but not yet on server it is much a double edge sword since it is affecting the actual most viable build for pvp who depend on ice conduct icy terrain to do dammage (-16% dammage or -6 if you don't take the new feat)
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
can you formulate it in other way, i will help you: you are the only GF, GWF player that is not able to construct your class and that not skilled enough to not have a better or a 50/50 match again CW and that think that competing again one of the top actual CW pvp player (with the actual CW in live it really something) should end up with always your victory
You assumption is incorrect, i am a gf and i do beat control wizards on live, yes and i also beat cw on the test shard because i build a daily before the fight and then use my DC artifact to use villains menace back to back. if i dont kill the control wizard within that time period as in the deflection and their shield and dmg not resistance and a lot of my crit, if i do crit. I can win them. But after my daily wears off i cant frozen, and then repelled. and then while icy terrain is on the ground also helping to build their frost stacks, i get frozen again, mind you these aren't the shorter length cc from live, these are long CC. I cant block the frost stacks so i must attack and interrupt them but if though i do i will be forced to get into icy terrain and then i prone the control wizard with bull charge and i get frozen also. he stands up and uses entangling force on me because i am unfrozen and then he pops oppressive force and mind you while all of this is happening assailant force is ticking away at my health.
It has some factor to do with skills but the problem is that as a gf you cannot guard frost stacks and now that the cc is so long, once you are caught you are dead. it is a very easy fight for a control wizard. You seem angry but i know how good i am. i pay attention to everything and dont let the control wizard even dodge my attacks. the only way to win is to get a huge burst on the control wizard with villains menace but that doesnt happen often because of shield and i crit for 3k as conqueror.
Listen you can lie and try to say i suck but i know i dont. I have found out that i can never kill a control wizard with just one daily. i did to build and use 2 dailies back to back for cc immunity.
AND WITH ALL THESE HAPPENING SEVERE REACTION IS PUNTING ME BACK MAILES AWAY.
the main reason you are actually able to completly beat CW while having more difficult in test server as nothing to do with change neither assaillant. the main reason is the corrected bug about armor pen that is not apply for most of wizard spell on live . that why wizard have actually so much problem in live and why simply counting of damage resist to fight wizard to nullify damage from wizard. That mean you have to rethink your GF or GWF and stop counting exlusivly on DR to win and have easy fight, you have to rethink your build, you have to understand how CW power work, and you have also to rethink your campaign gift. i already find at least one way with GF to destroy some CW build (i really mean destroy with really big winning chance). But you have to find and also what you want to do with your build
if you not get it 1000 80% DR on live with let say 25% armor pen from CW = 1000*(1-0.8) =200
same in test with armor pen working: 1000*(1-0.8+0.25)=450.
Amor pen actually bug on most of distant feat
yup and the last change not implement yet on test server are not big change and will more give to renegade than the two other. Once the bug corrected on alacrity(opressor way t4) it will give really 3 differents kind of playing with the non damage full control opressor, the over time damage thauma and the one shot crit debuf renegade and each will be strong against some build but more vulnerable agains other kind of build
Taken from Tuesdays patch notes -
So probably tonight or tomorrow .
yup and they aren't, if we want good cc we have to take oppressor and control feat that not do damage, tanky sorry but we are not tanky not at all shield only give a little more def but mean 1 spell blocked, hit hard mean using spell that hit hard and are poor or no control spell and imply to build or the actual thauma with over time spell that will be good against melee or the future renegade that will be better against ranged with one shot high crit spell. you are simply actually doing a melting pot of the 3 tree available in CW and simply apply a reasonning that we can take all the 3 tree at once
Yeah in module 4 you are probably going to have to think about using Thaumaturge for damage or Oppressor for control , there are a couple of changes coming this week hopefully that might increase Renegade DPS quite a lot but Shard is not going to be adjusted anymore unfortunately.
I imagine it will just increase their damage output but I agree that it probably won't be enough to make you choose Renegade over Thaum , did they add a patch last night with the EotS and Storm spell changes or didn't it go up yet? I wouldn't mind trying the changes out just to see.
Not up yet.
Actually not that much.
SotEA is currently the only encounter power that provides AoE prone for an amazing time. On PvP if you use it on tab you can provide the same damage as any other power on single target, such as Chill Strike.
In my opinion the problem with this power right now is that using it on tab makes you feel like it's just "another power" and not "The Power in the Mastery". It feels unworthy to use on PvP because the CD is too long and consumes too much of our tab mechanic potential, while if you use it in a normal slot it's terrible to be managed on PvP and consumes too much time to be finalized on PvE for such a low reward.
In my opinion, I don't feel like this power lacks on damage if you use it properly, the problem is that it takes too much time to do so and if you're unlucky it can be useless due to Control Immunity.
My suggestion is to make this power on normal encounter slots be like the Mastery version, and in the Mastery slot... idk.
My surface impression of it: The powerful EotS should be Renegade-specific and accessible through feats. As it looks now, it's obvious that MoF is behind. But then again, Smolder procs Assailant. Is it worth choosing MoF over Spellstorm? Probably not. Is the crit boost from the new EotS worth choosing Renegade over Thaum? Probably not. With Magic Missile and RoF dealing the same damage, who would willingly choose Renegade over Thaum?
I'm not an expert of MoF but, doesn't the damage debuff of Swath of Destruction benefit all your party?
If yes, if the 15% debuff of it was increased through a Renegade feat it would be incredibly useful in a group.
Yeah, but it should never be about nerfing one paragon to balance the other (or nerfing one class to balance another).
MoF just needs to be more viable by adding more options to add smoulder if we can't slot Critical Conflagration.
FtF is the easiest option for this as it doesn't currently add smolder unless assigned to TAB. On live it's a nuke ability off TAB, and a nuke + smolder add on TAB; but on test it's not a nuke at all (with the 33% damage reduction and 22 second cool-down increase); so basically it is a smolder add on TAB and that's it; and off TAB its a waste of an encounter slot all together. But there are much more viable options for the TAB encounter now, which means that slotting FtF all together is a waste of time (because it doesn't nuke or add smolder if not slotted into TAB). If it got reverted back to live, + added smolder off TAB, we would still be less DPS then spell storm.
SB is fine for PvE, but for PvP it's not viable as a skill as we need to use RoF. So basically there isn't much point being a MoF in PvP anymore as we have to cripple ourselves in one way or another.
Examples that i've used (using Thaum):
TAB: FtF
Encounters: Shield, CoI, Choke
Features: CC and SoD
I found that my survivability here was lacking. Shield off TAB isn't a great option, and choke without the new improved orb of imposition is pretty weak. Basically all you do here is smolder, coi and hope that assailing kills them. This is probably the most viable MoF option at this stage.
TAB: Shield
Encounters: FtF, CoI, Choke
Features: CC and SoD
I found here my survivability went up with shield on TAB. I had to rely on critical hits to add smolder here (via CC), but that's a gamble. Again, choke without orb doesn't give enough control and my damage was pretty weak, and i relied on assailing again.
TAB: Shield
Encounters: FtF, CoI, Choke
Features: SoD and Orb
Survivability was still constant with the last. Control went up because of the slotted Orb, which was fantastic. No way to add smolder though with this set-up though, so no point.
TAB: Shield
Encounters: FtF, CoI, Choke
Features: CC and Orb
Survivability was still constant with the last. Control went up because of the slotted Orb, which was fantastic. Smolder adding was again though critical hits, so a gamble, but smolder was a waste of time now (doesn't get the 45% increase or 15% debuff via SoD).
Basically we HAVE to slot CC and SoD. Which leaves us without any control, which all these updates are pretty much about. We don't have the burst damage of a spell storm, even with the new EoTS because storm spell is so good (it's probably a better DoT then smolder is LOL); and now we have to choose between smolder adding ability, or control. So what's the point of being a MoF then?
tldr; need to have ftf add smolder off TAB so MoF have better options for class features and/or revert back to live damage/cool-down.
Can I offer you a couple of suggestions? Copy your wizard over to preview and play there for a few days trying out different specs. Full respecs and race respecs are free on preview. If you chose to do this look me in game Houndaeer@cayapp or just @cayapp, I am pretty much always around. I am always up for running any thing.
Here is the link to copy a character over. Once you have copied it over start your NWO client. Let it start patching then stop it. Go to your directory for Perfectworld, find where it has playtest folder and copy over every thing from the folder named live. Then restart your client and it will only download what files have changed. This will save you from having to download everything again.
http://nw.perfectworld.com/preview
Unless you are truly just burnt out then by all means take a break, lord knows I take mini breaks all the time and then decide I need to take a break from drinking so back to play...LOL