Some additional changes to better change the divide between Iron Vanguard as a Tank/Control option and Swordmaster as a raw damage dealing option
Guardian Fighter: Weaponmaster's Strike: This power now deals ~48% more damage.
Guardian Fighter: Flourish: This power now deals ~55% more damage and stuns for 3 seconds (2 seconds on players).
These changes will bring the damage in line with what a GWF is capable of using the same powers. Great Weapon Fighters will be getting the reverse treatment on Iron Vangaurd powers (so they will deal the same damage a Guardian Fighter would with the same power).
Can we then remove the nerf of FLS from IV for GF? put it back to 5 target cap that prones players or 25% increase damage with 3 target cap and prone players
Some additional changes to better change the divide between Iron Vanguard as a Tank/Control option and Swordmaster as a raw damage dealing option
Guardian Fighter: Weaponmaster's Strike: This power now deals ~48% more damage.
Guardian Fighter: Flourish: This power now deals ~55% more damage and stuns for 3 seconds (2 seconds on players).
These changes will bring the damage in line with what a GWF is capable of using the same powers. Great Weapon Fighters will be getting the reverse treatment on Iron Vangaurd powers (so they will deal the same damage a Guardian Fighter would with the same power).
With just this swordmaster is VIABLE in pvp and pve woohoo lol.
Main-Lothor Syralth Guardian Fighter
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
As for the reasoning as to why we changed block the way we did I have to explain how old block worked and why it was problematic. Old block functioned as a secondary HP bar that was calculated based on your maximum HP and feats, and could not be drained more than 20% in any single hit. While this sounds good on paper in practice it actually means that when you manage to pull aggro on enough targets you end up getting the whole meter drained out rapidly (sometimes in only 5 hits depending on how strong the foes were). This then left the Guardian with no tools left in his kit. It also provided complete damage protection which meant that healers had to be ready for large spikes of incoming burst damage, and the only way to respond to that in time was to have a lot of heal over time effects rolling so that when those spikes of damage came in there were heals already coming in.
I did some testing against the Alpha Wolf in IWD, and his AoE's were smacking 8k's through my shield =S...
I did some testing against the Alpha Wolf in IWD, and his AoE's were smacking 8k's through my shield =S...
IWD is what I had in mind thinking that if that's the Mod3 content what will Mod4 hit like? Ever take and un-guarded hit from that beholder? Blocking that thing is most of an AP meter.
Regarding threatening rush, who really uses this skill on their GF?.
Rush has been crucial for me since beta. I always use Rush between my combo (FLS - Rush - Bull - Rush - Lunging) in PvP, and use it to close the gap against CW, HR or dodgy DC. In PvE I use it to position myself better in big fight and ofc for threat generation.
Idk how to kill decent PvP spec'd CW or HR in PvP without Threatening Rush, and I really appreciate the recent change for GF's Threatening Rush, it was needed.
Yes that was just a simple illustration so i could try and understand the math but under a different scenario for example pvp with high burst damage:
CW hits you for 20K ice knife. (assume you have DR 50% and 10% tenacity)
Old system: You block all damage, but prob have almost no guard meter.
New system: You block and take 20,000 times 0.2 equals 4000 then take DR/Tenacity which is 4000 times 0.4 therefore 1600 damage but you (if you timed it correct and didnt turtle for long behind shield) have 3-4 secs of block.
You need to boost crescendo damage to because ATM it deals less damage than indomitable and if swordmaster is goint in the DPS direction it needs to to hit alot harder.
You just answered yourself right there.
A TR in this game is a very triangular tank.
Look pal, it is easy yet you cannot seem to understand it somehow. In order to deflect (i even explained to you what a deflection is...) the two things colliding have to be solid and a TR has nothing solid to offer in order to justify such a high deflection base rate aswell as deflection severity.
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No clue if this is a communication issue, because a person in itself, cannot be a triangle.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
CON = 4% HP and 1% ARP
DEX = 1% DEFLECT and .5% CRIT
Just boosted tankiness for GFs AND damage from crit now being on stats (the ONLY class without crit stat buff)
Also PLEASE re-work the Capstone Conqueror Feat if doing this change to block. Two ideas off the top of my head:
1) Increased damage based on missing HP of the GF - "reckless attacker"
2) gain stacks while attacking - almost like GWFs Destroyer - but stacks disappear if/once you block. So again "reckless attacker"
I mean even the official DnD rules "Reckless Attacker" grants you an "extra attack" on a crit. So shoot, give GFs crit on Dexterity, enable crit builds this way, and change this feat to grant like a damage bonus for 6 seconds after a crit or something....
ALOT of ways to swing this.
Negative, we're not a DPS class. Also, if they correct the high general set so there isn't an internal cooldown, we'd crit too much.
Negative, we're not a DPS class. Also, if they correct the high general set so there isn't an internal cooldown, we'd crit too much.
Im so lost.... Adding a small single digit % crit chance based on stats makes us crit too much? You do realize High General adds only crit severity not crit so im lost there...
And one of the GF TREEs is a DPS/Striker build... A fighter can be a striker too...
@ayroux
The issue for me having Con giving ARP is the fact you excluding Action point gain,my best friend for tanking,since i need the action point gain so i keep using SoS, and then steel defense takes place.Unless they just add crit and still keep AP gain in there also,but Action points are a very big deal to my GF.
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zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
Mr. GMC, what about conqueror specs? All i keep seeing is tank this, tank that , tank here, tank there. For example, i am not going to play my GF as a tank. Can we address it's damage output and stat passives a little further? There's already plenty of suggestions on this thread about how to accomplish that.
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Do your internal testing against a perma stealth TR, a dodge crazy HR, a sprinting GWF, please. If our block depeletes just by holding our shield up... what's going to happen? Considered these classes have ways to literally get immune from damage for more than 5 seconds or just are able to run away. Especially with the 80% mitigation, what is going to happen, if a TR attacks us from stealth? We will be left with 50% power, an already damaged health pool and then certain classes can just finish us off, with ease.
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Thanks for reading.
This by simply raising my shield, i'll be loosing power from my reckless attacker, in PVP by raising your shield an good player with practically just stare at you while you loose your guard meter vs in Live they are force to actually attack you if they want to deplete that meter.
So think about this changes in your block meter
ALSO
since you have been updating/upgrading the capstone feat of GWF/HR/CW - why don't you also update the GF capstone as it is simply lackster atm.
GWF
Sentinel capstone - increase the effectiveness of your defense stat by 20% and increase the effectiveness of restoring strike and you will be adding a new line here (DR increase by 5x during unstoppble)
Destroyer capstone - you gain determination by dealing damage+ 10% damage during unstoppable + desryoyer purposes stack of 2% damage per stack max of 20
GF
Conqueror - double your power in proportion to your guardmeter
Protector - debuff enemy for every strike (2% per strike and a max of 10% debuff)
clearly the capstone of both our fighters need to be almost on par to better make both class balance*
This by simply raising my shield, i'll be loosing power from my reckless attacker, in PVP by raising your shield an good player with practically just stare at you while you loose your guard meter vs in Live they are force to actually attack you if they want to deplete that meter.
I've been told shield no longer blocks CC as well. Can someone confirm this for me? In pvp especially if you aren't protected from cc while facing off against someone, you're toast. Having that shield up is really about the only option to prevent the other classes from just walking all over you.
Edit: Couple more things I forgot to mention/ask.
1. It seems a bit over the top to give GWF's even more CC immunity. I can see more damage reduction, but more CC immunity seems a bit much while sprinting. If sprint were only used to get away I could understand, but now they can close the distance to other pvp'ers without them having an ability to keep them at distance.
2. If it's about reducing damage on the CW's, why not just reduce the damage the moves do and not adjust the times to execute?
I've been told shield no longer blocks CC as well. Can someone confirm this for me? In pvp especially if you aren't protected from cc while facing off against someone, you're toast. Having that shield up is really about the only option to prevent the other classes from just walking all over you.
Edit: Couple more things I forgot to mention/ask.
1. It seems a bit over the top to give GWF's even more CC immunity. I can see more damage reduction, but more CC immunity seems a bit much while sprinting.
2. If it's about reducing damage on the CW's, why not just reduce the damage the moves do and not adjust the times to execute?
I've been told shield no longer blocks CC as well. Can someone confirm this for me? In pvp especially if you aren't protected from cc while facing off against someone, you're toast. Having that shield up is really about the only option to prevent the other classes from just walking all over you.
Edit: Couple more things I forgot to mention/ask.
1. It seems a bit over the top to give GWF's even more CC immunity. I can see more damage reduction, but more CC immunity seems a bit much while sprinting. If sprint were only used to get away I could understand, but now they can close the distance to other pvp'ers without them having an ability to keep them at distance.
2. If it's about reducing damage on the CW's, why not just reduce the damage the moves do and not adjust the times to execute?
As of right now block does not block CC. With the upcoming changes block with have CC immunity as well.
- B
OMG ! This idea is a fatal error, please don't do it ! The GF is not very played because is not really a tank in that game, is more a runner than a tank. All experienced players think that. The GF guard is too weak. For exemple, when we fight with a lot of monsters, it is impossible to stand, it breaks very fast. So if you make going down the GF guard, the GF will become useless at all ! Please don't do that error. Trust me, i have a guild with experienced players, who have experience in a lot of MMORPG (40+ years old), and they all think that the tank is useless in that game. So if you do that, you will kill the little tanking game stilling alive.
I just played with a GF and witnessed taht he knows how to play his class. We talked about the proposed changes to block attacj, and i agree with him, that these changes must NOT go live. (sry fo my english, i hope poeple will understand).
As for the reasoning as to why we changed block the way we did I have to explain how old block worked and why it was problematic. Old block functioned as a secondary HP bar that was calculated based on your maximum HP and feats, and could not be drained more than 20% in any single hit. While this sounds good on paper in practice it actually means that when you manage to pull aggro on enough targets you end up getting the whole meter drained out rapidly (sometimes in only 5 hits depending on how strong the foes were).
Interesting, I didn't know guard was based off HP or if I did I've since forgotten.
I certainly noticed the guard become much less useful with the release of Icewind Dale and the harder hitting enemies. I've adapted to use the guard less as a result. The plus of the new system is that's it's now independent of damage and therefore shouldn't have the same sort of issues scaling with content that the old one had.
I am cool with guard being <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> if a GF rolls DPS, but I expect some good damage in return? If I roll Sword master DPS give me some damage! Raise my crit for the love of god??????????? Give me some potential to DPS
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I disagree. Conqueror is a DPS tree, by definition. If you want to play as a tank, roll a protector.
GF isn't a DPS Class, but yes, we have Conqueror which is the DPS tree, but I still think that DPS shouldn't be the most important aspect even for a conqueror, just like a Nature HR wouldn't surpass a DC, a Conqueror GF shouldn't surpass a DPS Class.
Comments
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Can we then remove the nerf of FLS from IV for GF? put it back to 5 target cap that prones players or 25% increase damage with 3 target cap and prone players
With just this swordmaster is VIABLE in pvp and pve woohoo lol.
PvP, I can understand. But PvE how so? Flourish replaces frontline (5 target AoE) encounter for single target.
I did some testing against the Alpha Wolf in IWD, and his AoE's were smacking 8k's through my shield =S...
Does it do a lot of black ice damage (asking since I haven't done that one in ages and the shield might not block black ice damage).
I am pretty sure that attack is a ton of black ice damage, which I'd assume can't be mitigated by blocking any more than any other normal mitigation.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
IWD is what I had in mind thinking that if that's the Mod3 content what will Mod4 hit like? Ever take and un-guarded hit from that beholder? Blocking that thing is most of an AP meter.
I use Threatening Rush on my GF both in PVE and PVP.
As has been mentioned previously by numerous people, Threatening Rush is a good Power that enables a GF to close quickly with a target.
Please consider that your play style is not the only play style possible or viable.
Thanks for the clarification and response Gentlemancrush. I appreciate it!
Idk how to kill decent PvP spec'd CW or HR in PvP without Threatening Rush, and I really appreciate the recent change for GF's Threatening Rush, it was needed.
You need to boost crescendo damage to because ATM it deals less damage than indomitable and if swordmaster is goint in the DPS direction it needs to to hit alot harder.
Look pal, it is easy yet you cannot seem to understand it somehow. In order to deflect (i even explained to you what a deflection is...) the two things colliding have to be solid and a TR has nothing solid to offer in order to justify such a high deflection base rate aswell as deflection severity.
---
No clue if this is a communication issue, because a person in itself, cannot be a triangle.
Negative, we're not a DPS class. Also, if they correct the high general set so there isn't an internal cooldown, we'd crit too much.
Right, that's why we have a burst aswell as dps tree available in our specs. Stick to PvE with your meatshield nonesense, my friend.
+100 to this(been playng GF for over 6 months)
Im so lost.... Adding a small single digit % crit chance based on stats makes us crit too much? You do realize High General adds only crit severity not crit so im lost there...
And one of the GF TREEs is a DPS/Striker build... A fighter can be a striker too...
The issue for me having Con giving ARP is the fact you excluding Action point gain,my best friend for tanking,since i need the action point gain so i keep using SoS, and then steel defense takes place.Unless they just add crit and still keep AP gain in there also,but Action points are a very big deal to my GF.
This by simply raising my shield, i'll be loosing power from my reckless attacker, in PVP by raising your shield an good player with practically just stare at you while you loose your guard meter vs in Live they are force to actually attack you if they want to deplete that meter.
So think about this changes in your block meter
ALSO
since you have been updating/upgrading the capstone feat of GWF/HR/CW - why don't you also update the GF capstone as it is simply lackster atm.
GWF
Sentinel capstone - increase the effectiveness of your defense stat by 20% and increase the effectiveness of restoring strike and you will be adding a new line here (DR increase by 5x during unstoppble)
Destroyer capstone - you gain determination by dealing damage+ 10% damage during unstoppable + desryoyer purposes stack of 2% damage per stack max of 20
GF
Conqueror - double your power in proportion to your guardmeter
Protector - debuff enemy for every strike (2% per strike and a max of 10% debuff)
clearly the capstone of both our fighters need to be almost on par to better make both class balance*
I've been told shield no longer blocks CC as well. Can someone confirm this for me? In pvp especially if you aren't protected from cc while facing off against someone, you're toast. Having that shield up is really about the only option to prevent the other classes from just walking all over you.
Edit: Couple more things I forgot to mention/ask.
1. It seems a bit over the top to give GWF's even more CC immunity. I can see more damage reduction, but more CC immunity seems a bit much while sprinting. If sprint were only used to get away I could understand, but now they can close the distance to other pvp'ers without them having an ability to keep them at distance.
2. If it's about reducing damage on the CW's, why not just reduce the damage the moves do and not adjust the times to execute?
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?692701-Official-Feedback-Thread-Guardian-Fighter-Changes&p=8241371&viewfull=1#post8241371
As of right now block does not block CC. With the upcoming changes block with have CC immunity as well.
- B
I just played with a GF and witnessed taht he knows how to play his class. We talked about the proposed changes to block attacj, and i agree with him, that these changes must NOT go live. (sry fo my english, i hope poeple will understand).
Interesting, I didn't know guard was based off HP or if I did I've since forgotten.
I certainly noticed the guard become much less useful with the release of Icewind Dale and the harder hitting enemies. I've adapted to use the guard less as a result. The plus of the new system is that's it's now independent of damage and therefore shouldn't have the same sort of issues scaling with content that the old one had.
I disagree. Conqueror is a DPS tree, by definition. If you want to play as a tank, roll a protector.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
GF isn't a DPS Class, but yes, we have Conqueror which is the DPS tree, but I still think that DPS shouldn't be the most important aspect even for a conqueror, just like a Nature HR wouldn't surpass a DC, a Conqueror GF shouldn't surpass a DPS Class.