I've done more extensive testing on the preview shard today with various different builds/gear/powers and I'd like to share here what I've discovered. I will discuss the mechanics of GWF's vs. other classes. This isn't to complain about other classes only to show the PVP dynamics currently represented on the preview shard.
GWF vs. GWF: IV has very large advantage over SM. Having a gap closer and passives that allow for more damage makes IV the meta for PVP still.
GWF vs. HR: No chance to survive with any build against a thorn ward HR, sentinel isn't tanky enough and Destroyer doesn't do enough burst damage. Will always be a loss 1v1. Thornward eats GWF's for breakfast.
GWF vs. CW: With changes to CW shield can be a close fight. However with blinks/severe reaction/ungodly powerful repel it is nigh impossible to get to them to do damage with limited threatening rush charges. Repel shoots us completely across the map and we spend most of our time simply trying to gap close them.
GWF vs. GF: GF have gotten to keep prones. Prone vs. stun, prone will always win. Against end game GF's you have to be very lucky and jump behind them (their shield mechanic is broken and you are unable to tell when it goes down) because their shield is basically always up. Their damage buffs make GF the newer, better GWF for mod 4.
GWF vs. TR: Much better now against Perma TR's because we have more sprint to find them with, and destroyers can still do a bit of burst damage to low DR/deflect TR's. The one plus to this mod for GWF's.
GWF vs. DC: GWF is unable to kill DC's in mod 4. Simply an impossible feat end game. Destroyer/Sentinel, it doesn't matter. We can't do enough dps to kill a healer. That is a poignant and perplexing truth.
GWF vs. Warlock: Not enough testing to give constructive feedback yet.
These are some possible solutions to the balancing issues that still plague our class on the preview server:
1) If we can't have prones, noone should have them. Much of our damage came from proning before IBS, why should GWF's get that nerfed and allow GF/HR/CW/DC to maintain prones? Doesn't make sense from a balancing perspective.
2) If stuns are the new prones they need an animation to show they've hit successfully, it's impossible to tell if you've controlled your target for IBS. Even a mechanic like the one that TR's have with shadow strike to show stun would be an improvement.
3) If Classes are going to be allowed 5 + shifts/blinks/severe reactions, we need an equal number of gap closers. This makes it a level playing field. Then they must strategize to make us waste our gap closers and control us. Not just do damage and always blink out of the way or repel us completely across a node/map.
4)Make Sent GWF's tankier, and Destroyer GWF's higher dps to bring us back in line with the buffs other classes have recieved.
5)Make the SM GWF viable again by giving them a gap closer or a slow mechanic to keep targets close. Otherwise they are useless in PVP.
6)Give Sent's some feat that gives a damage reduction or immunity to DOT's like assailing or Thornward which would make them pertinent again in PVP. As is stands they are tankier but not by much considering how nerfed their damage is.
7)When a two handed weapon wielding master of disaster cannot even best a DC in mod 4 there is a problem. When a DC is no longer support but now is a node holder that I cannot possibly hope to best as a GWF then I will not be asked to come along in premade PVP. Considering I can't best any class now efficiently/consistently excepting perhaps TR's, as they are currently built, I find that there is still work needed on GWF's to make them relevant in mod 4.
As always I appreciate the Dev's considerations in these matters and I have faith in the Dev's ability to make GWF's fun and playable end game in mod 4. Thanks for your time.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Great Weapon Fighters provided unparalleled mobility and striking power in PVP combat, and because of the way Unstoppable functioned they also gained incredible survivability at nearly no cost. We wanted to make this more of a choice and reduce the tankiness of high damage dealing builds, while still preserving how much survivability tanks can get. In addition we toned back their mobility with some changes to Threatening Rush.
These are the nerfs you applied to GWFs:
Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized.
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 15~30% damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%)
Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs. (
Takedown: This power now deals ~30% less damage.
Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds.
Frontline Surge: This power now deals ~35% less damage.
Threatening Rush: This power now deals ~35% less damage.
And these are the buffs you applied to GWFs:
Sentinel's Aegis: This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects.
Flourish: This power now deals ~15% more damage and stuns for 3 seconds (2 seconds on players).
Intimidation: Not So Fast and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.
Takedown: Base stun duration increased to 3 seconds on players (up from 1.2).
Weaponmaster's Strike: This power now deals ~10% more damage.
Great Weapon Fighter Sprint: Stamina cost reduced by roughly 40%.
Mark: Now provides 20% increased damage on the target for the Great Weapon Fighter.
Frontline Surge: Base stun increased to 3 seconds (up from 2 seconds).
Mark: Marks applied by Great Weapon Fighters are no longer removed upon taking damage.
(You may notice that I ignored bug fixes, like Roar, and threat-related changes, since they're not important on PvP)
You said you would tone back the GWF mobility a little bit by changing Threatening Rush; okay, but you decreased the Stamina consumption of Sprint.
You said you would tone back the GWF survivability a little bit by changing Unstoppable; okay, but you gave Control Immunity and 30% damage reduction to Sprint.
The nerf on Takedown and Frontline Surge was issued because they gave high damage and the best form of control on PvP (prone), but these nerfs are ignored by the buffs increasing the stun time of these powers to 3s and the 20% damage increase for any power from Mark.
Please: take a hard look at the changes you made to GWFs in this new mod, watch how GWFs are doing on Live and on Preview and please, think if this is going to change something in the future.
(´･ ω ･`)
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
edited August 2014
Why is a CW QQ'ing in the GWF feedback thread? Why don't you go to your own class thread and ask for buffs instead of being here asking for nerfs? This make you look so bad.
Why is a CW QQ'ing in the GWF feedback thread? Why don't you go to your own class thread and ask for buffs instead of being here asking for nerfs? This make you look so bad.
I must lol at this have you read the other class forums they are MORE qqing from gwfs there then feedback talk about throwing stones in a glass house ( just had to write this )....
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
I must lol at this have you read the other class forums they are MORE qqing from gwfs there then feedback talk about throwing stones in a glass house ( just had to write this )....
In what way do you figure that out as our forum is littered with gwf qqing about nerfing hrs and yet I dont see any hr here talking about nerfing gwfs. It has gone so far that even the devs has commented that they are tired of clearing all post from gwfs that isent feedback but just asking for nerfs to futher themselfs.
Please: take a hard look at the changes you made to GWFs in this new mod, watch how GWFs are doing on Live and on Preview and please, think if this is going to change something in the future.
Yes, please do take a hard look at the changes you made, watch how poorly we GWFs do against all the other classes on preview. If you have spent any time at all on the preview shard fighting real end game players, you should know that GWF's are nerfed into irrelevancy. If you feel I am in err, send me a tell in game and we will get some real end game PVPers on the preview shard and demonstrate the lack of viability of GWFs. What I see more often is that GWF's are so unpopular due to the destroyer build of mod 3 that other classes are hoping, praying that they get nerfed into oblivion so that they may rue the day that they ever rolled a GWF. This is not the way to approach balancing PVP. I believe this will be apparent to the Devs and they will make good on allowing all classes to be fun and playable by not destroying the destroyers
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
edited August 2014
Feedback:
As the Great Weapon Fighter is a heavily armed combatant in heavy armor, they should not be able to get a Deflection chance of more than 20%.
This would make this class balanced, as they can reach significantly higher amounts of Damage Reduction than other classes, on top of having a CC Break/Immunity, now doubled up with Sprint.
Calculations prove that a Sentinel GWF can easily reach a Deflection Chance of over 50% in PvP Gear, a Destroyer is able to at least reach around 44%, further augmented by their higher DR.
This all then gets topped off with Sprint, Unstoppable or an outright Multi-Second (while it activates) Immunity from a possible use of 'Avalance of Steel'.
In addition, the Great Weapon Fighter, due to an easier to aquire high amount of Hitpoints, gets a significantly higher amount of return from Regeneration, further augmented with Lifesteal and Restoring Strike, which can also be used as a heal, on a fairly regular base on top of that.
I just wish instead of making all these drastic changes to GWF/HR/CW/GF they just made minor tweaks....
Crush, the GWF class really wasnt far from being balanced, just like the HR class wasnt far nor the CW class....
I can only speak to GWF because thats what I know inside and out,
GWFs didnt need many changes...
Roar did need to be "fixed". Frontline - sure, turn it into a stun.
Unstoppable DIDNT need a nerf, takedown didnt need a nerf....
I really suggest removing CC immunity from sprint, but! for that lack of "survivability" give takedown back its prone and in all truth, bring Unstoppable back to 25-50% - Especially with HR/CW feats that bypass DR this wont even be a BIG beef up.
Mark didnt need to be 20%, Id suggest bumping that back down to 8% and keep the "perma" aspect of mark - in that it doesnt disappear.
Unstoppable Recovery got a fix (which REALLY cut down tankiness).
All of these changes, would make the GWF alot more balanced.
The problem with these changes, is it doesnt fix the pure brokenness of HRs and CWs. Any post made there about how stupid wilds medicine is, or how good and best geared HRs run around with 50-60% deflect, cant die and reflect like monsters...
I cant even imagine that wilds medicine was even tested... Unless your ONLY looking at PVE...
Assailing Force is as skillless mechanic, Just give CWs a damage boost feat instead - like 25% more damage for 6 seconds after controlling a target or something weird like that.
Im REALLY just sad to see this module take such a bad turn for the worse, and I dont blame Crush, because most of the people posting in the CW and HR threads are frankly just morons and have no idea the capabilities of their class, and their "testing" from heroics is supposed to show "its balanced?" - makes ZERO sense....
Feedback: CC immunity on sprint
Too much CC immunity uptime when fighting controller classes, sprinting isn't so much a dodge as it's a means to get from point a to b quicker then anyone else, the unstoppable mode is all the cc immunity the gwf needs because there is no cooldown on it and can be used quite frequently in PvP
That Prone shouldn't last 4 seconds on players and is getting fixed in the next build. And the general desire to have prone be something that is a little more difficult to get (because it does shut off a not insubstantial portion of your defenses on many classes), is still part of this. Harrowstorm requires you to sacrifice all the damage it can deal for the prone (or time it well and only clip the end, which is a substantial skill play).
Feedback:
Prone: Not disable " insubstantial portion of your defenses on many classes"
i just logged in on live yesterday proned ower 300 player in dpvp i dont saw any difference after prone effect, they have deflect deffense mignation everything only 1 have big disadvantage if proned GWF he cannot use unstoppable.
So can i ask agan what was the "Intention" to remove all prones from GWF? Take down is not easy to land.
And in the mean time all other class(only TR have no prone but he have many daze ) can keep they prone?
someonediesMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,257Arc User
edited August 2014
Feedback: Swordmaster dying.
Crescendo: Easy dodgeble like Flourish.
30 Range 4' Cylinder Stun. Your enemy with a flurry of attacks, and then attack from many angles simultaneously to send them Prone.
If you have been proned during power activation you lose daily and all action points - not grant CC immunity on cast like Avalanche of Steel.
Same bug against the power Marauder's Escape.
Punishing Charge:
should grant cc immunity while active.
So before we'll go into changes in "module 4" we made some real PvP tests on Rus server.
We were fighting on a point 3v3:
HR, Rogue and GWF - side 1
Heal and 2 GWF - side 2.
I was on the side 2 between one of the GWF.
Every person in this fight had pvp builds, maximum hp, parry and so on.
So between HR, Rogue and GWF who do you think was more easier to kill? - Answer is GWF.
Not to mention he had more hp than the other two guys from side 1, but nevertheless he was targeted number 1.
Because he had no dodge, immune/avoid things and it was easier to catch him because of his running speed.
Right now it's almost impossible to kill 1on1 HR on the point in high regen build. He'll just jump around and you'll die from the aoe...
So let's go to the module 4 where GWF will get damage reduction, no prone effect and damage resistance reduction in Bers mode. This is real nerf and I will probably leave this game after this, because I don't see any playable class except GWF for me.
As of other posts I agree that Dev's need to do some testing and take a look at the videos. This is real nerf that's not needed because GWF do not dominate PvP right now. Just check top pvp matches and you'll see the difference.
Also we desperately need more PvP modes because PvP overall is dying.
Point's capturing is not the mode you need to keep it interesting. 99% of my guild are pvp oriented and will probably quit soon because they have nothing to do in this game.
We just need MORE PvP Modes like:
- Deathmatch
- Capture the Flag(EGG)
- Kill/guard the Dragon.
and so on.
Proposal for Module 4 for GWF:
1. Fix the Roar.
2. Do not touch everything else. Damage, determination and crit reduction will be dead end.
Went on the Preview shard with my gwf. Standard, maybe even a bit sub-standard gwf, not the P2W kind. No Vorpal for instance. Still, 18k gs, and a build oriented towards survivability in solo pve. 3000 Def, LifeDrinker, capped regen and lifeSteal. Not that much power, but definitely a gwf that should never die while completing dailies.
Well in Preview he does die. Not in Sharandar or Dread ring of course but in IWD it dies. Against pretty much everything, except the trolls, but the trolls are notoriously weak, arguably even weaker than redcaps.
Against grizzlies, giants, marauders, also against yetis if fighting simultaneously another group, say wolves, he dies. How should it be otherwise, by the way? Having both no damage and no mitigation is quite a concern for a Melee class.
AtWills: WMS is slow, capped, and base damage is sub-par. Solo Atwills just have zero use in pve.
Encounters: BattleFury delivers no damage, roar, takedown have seen all their damage removed. IBS is ok when target life is lower than 30%, problem is, how do you ever remove the first 70% ?
Dailies: nothing. Not even one daily like TR's SE or CW's IK
Mitigation: nothing. No Unstoppable, no heal, no shield, no hide, no dodge, to untargettable, no stealth. Sprinting away is useless in pve.
To make a long story short: on liver server my gwf wins against field mobs b/c he delivers more damage than he takes, in preview he dies b/c he takes more damage than he gives.
Mod4 gwf is not playable in pve.
Give a free respec-into-scourge button to the gwfs, and create an NPC shop where they can exchange their gwf gear for scourge gear.
ToD = ..........
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
Feedback:
The only thing I can say is: fix Roar and leave everything else as it is. I dont even understand why you, the devs, creating work that is not needed?? As others have said, the gwf was nearly balanced.
Your changing like everything that matters on this class.
Why??
I dont even play my gwf anymore since mod2, but I want a challange and not see hundrets of disappointed gwf players leave the game due these changes. I really cant understand these heavy changes. I really cant.
Rationale: Destroyers are increasingly looking at single target damage with Feats like Executioner's style and Focused Destroyer. So you might as well buff them to make them viable for Boss fights (where Boss HP will take quite some hitting with GWF skills to bring below 30%). Following suggestion will increase damage for Restoring strike & Flourish (since many have pointed out that IBS is AoE, it should not have any impact). Suggestion: Steel grace-Your skills with weaponry increase, increasing your single target encounter damage by 10%. Rank 2+10%. Rank 3. +10%.
OR Allow the SM Destroyers to be what they were truly intended to be.. AoE damage beasts. This has little impact on PvP but will be a remarkable QoL improvement for SMs
Rationale: Improve AoE damage of SM Destroyers with buff to Weapon Master strike. Suggestion: Weapon Master's Strike now also reduces your target Mitigation to your Encounter powers 4/8/12/16/20%.
With just a week or so left, I am losing hope. It is increasingly looking like IV or nothing for GWFs. (Hope I did not miss any SM Destroyer updates ; could not find any on the dev tracker recently).
Bug Threatening Rush:
As previously mentioned, I'm just reiterating to ensure notice - Threatening Rush only places a Mark on the target of the ability, it does not Mark any other NPC's, no matter how close.
Spinning Strike:
This doesn't appear to be interrupted as I had earlier thought, it is broken when I try to move. Is this WIA? If so, why do we get increased Run Speed while active? This seems counterintuitive.
Feedback
Encounters:
Have the encounter dragons received a substantial buff, or have defensive abilities/DR been modified in some manner? In the last couple of days, I'm noticing I'm receiving *substantially* more damage from the encounter dragons, sometimes even one-shotting me, even in their minor "red zone" attacks, like the AOE knockbacks.
Threat:
Additionally, I've noticed some issues with threat not being able to be maintained/not latching. For example, yesterday with the Whispering Caverns dragon, I had multiple issues with the dragon not being "taunted" on to me even though I TR'd multiple times. There were only a few of us at the encounter - a DC, SW, and an HR. Even if I was being substantially outdamaged, which I was not, shouldn't I have been able to maintain or achieve threat lock? I TR'd 3 times and the dragon continued to assault others for 8-10 seconds afterwards (1 charge to close, then rapidly burnt the other two charges trying to "regain" threat). Other situations *may* have had other players as contributing factors, but in this case, I can't see anything that should have caused this.
Threatening Rush/Melee Mobility:
The more I use this, the more I'd like to ask for A) more charges, shorter cooldowns on charges, C) Remove charges and just have a short ICD, or D) only have the charge mechanic in PVP. As our only real closer, it places a pretty severe handicap on high mobility fights - I'm having to burn my Sprint to get out of AOE or major attacks, and this is the primary tool for repositioning/closing.
I may have a some Sprint left to run back to the fight, but since we are pretty much a "point blank" DPS design, our damage will and does suffer on fights with a high degree of disconnects - I've parsed up to 40-50% delta's. If our charge is going to include a taunt, we need ways to be able to re-engage the mob, particularly boss types. Too many times I have to run from the mob to avoid major attacks, I run back to the mobs to engage again - oh, wait - now his PB attack is winding up, have to run away again, start back towards the boss, now I have to dodge the mini circles.
Closing Notes:
When will we see some love to the Instigator tree? I'd love to see some options for our class other than cookie cutter Destro or cookie cutter Sentinel. As the tree currently sits, I can't find any real viability for it, and it seems a shame to let something that could provide more utility to the class lie fallow.
Thank you for your consideration, and your time. I'm really looking forward to Mod 4.
I just try in ice wind, the combo daring shout / battle fury / ibs in an attempt to try to sustain a good single target ending the combo with a ibs aoe.
the problem:
the gap between the minimum damage and maximum damage is unreasonably high (or there is some inconsistency in the critical severity). reaching 30k critical difference (perfect vorpal).
problem already pointed out because of the new mechanics of the destroyer.
suggestion: steel grace (more useless than ever) could act as a regulator to gwf damage (up in 10/20/30% the minimum damage) or a more generous bonus for encounters.
is a common power in mmos, with the difference that, in this case, is critical exchange for "guaranteed hit" (a problem that does not exist here).
would give an opportunity for the sm in pvp and would cause the gwf not be excluded from pve.
please think about it. the fact that the arp be working on two useless powers not make them less useless. only show the gulf that existed previously. is a reasonable suggestion.
feedback:sm vs iv. i short: the autonomy of iv tanks to Trample the Fallen+Frontline Surge is so big... i really dont understand this "balance". i need spend 10 points in destroyer to do the same ibs to iv.
Comments
GWF vs. GWF: IV has very large advantage over SM. Having a gap closer and passives that allow for more damage makes IV the meta for PVP still.
GWF vs. HR: No chance to survive with any build against a thorn ward HR, sentinel isn't tanky enough and Destroyer doesn't do enough burst damage. Will always be a loss 1v1. Thornward eats GWF's for breakfast.
GWF vs. CW: With changes to CW shield can be a close fight. However with blinks/severe reaction/ungodly powerful repel it is nigh impossible to get to them to do damage with limited threatening rush charges. Repel shoots us completely across the map and we spend most of our time simply trying to gap close them.
GWF vs. GF: GF have gotten to keep prones. Prone vs. stun, prone will always win. Against end game GF's you have to be very lucky and jump behind them (their shield mechanic is broken and you are unable to tell when it goes down) because their shield is basically always up. Their damage buffs make GF the newer, better GWF for mod 4.
GWF vs. TR: Much better now against Perma TR's because we have more sprint to find them with, and destroyers can still do a bit of burst damage to low DR/deflect TR's. The one plus to this mod for GWF's.
GWF vs. DC: GWF is unable to kill DC's in mod 4. Simply an impossible feat end game. Destroyer/Sentinel, it doesn't matter. We can't do enough dps to kill a healer. That is a poignant and perplexing truth.
GWF vs. Warlock: Not enough testing to give constructive feedback yet.
These are some possible solutions to the balancing issues that still plague our class on the preview server:
1) If we can't have prones, noone should have them. Much of our damage came from proning before IBS, why should GWF's get that nerfed and allow GF/HR/CW/DC to maintain prones? Doesn't make sense from a balancing perspective.
2) If stuns are the new prones they need an animation to show they've hit successfully, it's impossible to tell if you've controlled your target for IBS. Even a mechanic like the one that TR's have with shadow strike to show stun would be an improvement.
3) If Classes are going to be allowed 5 + shifts/blinks/severe reactions, we need an equal number of gap closers. This makes it a level playing field. Then they must strategize to make us waste our gap closers and control us. Not just do damage and always blink out of the way or repel us completely across a node/map.
4)Make Sent GWF's tankier, and Destroyer GWF's higher dps to bring us back in line with the buffs other classes have recieved.
5)Make the SM GWF viable again by giving them a gap closer or a slow mechanic to keep targets close. Otherwise they are useless in PVP.
6)Give Sent's some feat that gives a damage reduction or immunity to DOT's like assailing or Thornward which would make them pertinent again in PVP. As is stands they are tankier but not by much considering how nerfed their damage is.
7)When a two handed weapon wielding master of disaster cannot even best a DC in mod 4 there is a problem. When a DC is no longer support but now is a node holder that I cannot possibly hope to best as a GWF then I will not be asked to come along in premade PVP. Considering I can't best any class now efficiently/consistently excepting perhaps TR's, as they are currently built, I find that there is still work needed on GWF's to make them relevant in mod 4.
As always I appreciate the Dev's considerations in these matters and I have faith in the Dev's ability to make GWF's fun and playable end game in mod 4. Thanks for your time.
You stated this in the first post of this topic:
These are the nerfs you applied to GWFs:
And these are the buffs you applied to GWFs:
(You may notice that I ignored bug fixes, like Roar, and threat-related changes, since they're not important on PvP)
You said you would tone back the GWF mobility a little bit by changing Threatening Rush; okay, but you decreased the Stamina consumption of Sprint.
You said you would tone back the GWF survivability a little bit by changing Unstoppable; okay, but you gave Control Immunity and 30% damage reduction to Sprint.
The nerf on Takedown and Frontline Surge was issued because they gave high damage and the best form of control on PvP (prone), but these nerfs are ignored by the buffs increasing the stun time of these powers to 3s and the 20% damage increase for any power from Mark.
Please: take a hard look at the changes you made to GWFs in this new mod, watch how GWFs are doing on Live and on Preview and please, think if this is going to change something in the future.
I must lol at this have you read the other class forums they are MORE qqing from gwfs there then feedback talk about throwing stones in a glass house ( just had to write this )....
Words written by a HR, talking about hypocrisy.
In what way do you figure that out as our forum is littered with gwf qqing about nerfing hrs and yet I dont see any hr here talking about nerfing gwfs. It has gone so far that even the devs has commented that they are tired of clearing all post from gwfs that isent feedback but just asking for nerfs to futher themselfs.
So tell me where is the hypocrisy....
Yes, please do take a hard look at the changes you made, watch how poorly we GWFs do against all the other classes on preview. If you have spent any time at all on the preview shard fighting real end game players, you should know that GWF's are nerfed into irrelevancy. If you feel I am in err, send me a tell in game and we will get some real end game PVPers on the preview shard and demonstrate the lack of viability of GWFs. What I see more often is that GWF's are so unpopular due to the destroyer build of mod 3 that other classes are hoping, praying that they get nerfed into oblivion so that they may rue the day that they ever rolled a GWF. This is not the way to approach balancing PVP. I believe this will be apparent to the Devs and they will make good on allowing all classes to be fun and playable by not destroying the destroyers
As the Great Weapon Fighter is a heavily armed combatant in heavy armor, they should not be able to get a Deflection chance of more than 20%.
This would make this class balanced, as they can reach significantly higher amounts of Damage Reduction than other classes, on top of having a CC Break/Immunity, now doubled up with Sprint.
Calculations prove that a Sentinel GWF can easily reach a Deflection Chance of over 50% in PvP Gear, a Destroyer is able to at least reach around 44%, further augmented by their higher DR.
This all then gets topped off with Sprint, Unstoppable or an outright Multi-Second (while it activates) Immunity from a possible use of 'Avalance of Steel'.
In addition, the Great Weapon Fighter, due to an easier to aquire high amount of Hitpoints, gets a significantly higher amount of return from Regeneration, further augmented with Lifesteal and Restoring Strike, which can also be used as a heal, on a fairly regular base on top of that.
Devs, use DnD gwf to design NWO gwf.
Crush, the GWF class really wasnt far from being balanced, just like the HR class wasnt far nor the CW class....
I can only speak to GWF because thats what I know inside and out,
GWFs didnt need many changes...
Roar did need to be "fixed". Frontline - sure, turn it into a stun.
Unstoppable DIDNT need a nerf, takedown didnt need a nerf....
I really suggest removing CC immunity from sprint, but! for that lack of "survivability" give takedown back its prone and in all truth, bring Unstoppable back to 25-50% - Especially with HR/CW feats that bypass DR this wont even be a BIG beef up.
Mark didnt need to be 20%, Id suggest bumping that back down to 8% and keep the "perma" aspect of mark - in that it doesnt disappear.
Unstoppable Recovery got a fix (which REALLY cut down tankiness).
All of these changes, would make the GWF alot more balanced.
The problem with these changes, is it doesnt fix the pure brokenness of HRs and CWs. Any post made there about how stupid wilds medicine is, or how good and best geared HRs run around with 50-60% deflect, cant die and reflect like monsters...
I cant even imagine that wilds medicine was even tested... Unless your ONLY looking at PVE...
Assailing Force is as skillless mechanic, Just give CWs a damage boost feat instead - like 25% more damage for 6 seconds after controlling a target or something weird like that.
Im REALLY just sad to see this module take such a bad turn for the worse, and I dont blame Crush, because most of the people posting in the CW and HR threads are frankly just morons and have no idea the capabilities of their class, and their "testing" from heroics is supposed to show "its balanced?" - makes ZERO sense....
Too much CC immunity uptime when fighting controller classes, sprinting isn't so much a dodge as it's a means to get from point a to b quicker then anyone else, the unstoppable mode is all the cc immunity the gwf needs because there is no cooldown on it and can be used quite frequently in PvP
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
Example of what is not feedback: R.I.P.
Next R.I.P. will be in regards to the users ability to post in this thread.
Feedback:
Prone: Not disable " insubstantial portion of your defenses on many classes"
i just logged in on live yesterday proned ower 300 player in dpvp i dont saw any difference after prone effect, they have deflect deffense mignation everything only 1 have big disadvantage if proned GWF he cannot use unstoppable.
So can i ask agan what was the "Intention" to remove all prones from GWF? Take down is not easy to land.
And in the mean time all other class(only TR have no prone but he have many daze ) can keep they prone?
Crescendo:
Easy dodgeble like Flourish.
If you have been proned during power activation you lose daily and all action points - not grant CC immunity on cast like Avalanche of Steel.
Same bug against the power Marauder's Escape.
Punishing Charge:
should grant cc immunity while active.
Dead🔪We were fighting on a point 3v3:
HR, Rogue and GWF - side 1
Heal and 2 GWF - side 2.
I was on the side 2 between one of the GWF.
Every person in this fight had pvp builds, maximum hp, parry and so on.
So between HR, Rogue and GWF who do you think was more easier to kill? - Answer is GWF.
Not to mention he had more hp than the other two guys from side 1, but nevertheless he was targeted number 1.
Because he had no dodge, immune/avoid things and it was easier to catch him because of his running speed.
Right now it's almost impossible to kill 1on1 HR on the point in high regen build. He'll just jump around and you'll die from the aoe...
So let's go to the module 4 where GWF will get damage reduction, no prone effect and damage resistance reduction in Bers mode. This is real nerf and I will probably leave this game after this, because I don't see any playable class except GWF for me.
As of other posts I agree that Dev's need to do some testing and take a look at the videos. This is real nerf that's not needed because GWF do not dominate PvP right now. Just check top pvp matches and you'll see the difference.
Also we desperately need more PvP modes because PvP overall is dying.
Point's capturing is not the mode you need to keep it interesting. 99% of my guild are pvp oriented and will probably quit soon because they have nothing to do in this game.
We just need MORE PvP Modes like:
- Deathmatch
- Capture the Flag(EGG)
- Kill/guard the Dragon.
and so on.
Proposal for Module 4 for GWF:
1. Fix the Roar.
2. Do not touch everything else. Damage, determination and crit reduction will be dead end.
Well in Preview he does die. Not in Sharandar or Dread ring of course but in IWD it dies. Against pretty much everything, except the trolls, but the trolls are notoriously weak, arguably even weaker than redcaps.
Against grizzlies, giants, marauders, also against yetis if fighting simultaneously another group, say wolves, he dies. How should it be otherwise, by the way? Having both no damage and no mitigation is quite a concern for a Melee class.
AtWills: WMS is slow, capped, and base damage is sub-par. Solo Atwills just have zero use in pve.
Encounters: BattleFury delivers no damage, roar, takedown have seen all their damage removed. IBS is ok when target life is lower than 30%, problem is, how do you ever remove the first 70% ?
Dailies: nothing. Not even one daily like TR's SE or CW's IK
Mitigation: nothing. No Unstoppable, no heal, no shield, no hide, no dodge, to untargettable, no stealth. Sprinting away is useless in pve.
To make a long story short: on liver server my gwf wins against field mobs b/c he delivers more damage than he takes, in preview he dies b/c he takes more damage than he gives.
Mod4 gwf is not playable in pve.
Give a free respec-into-scourge button to the gwfs, and create an NPC shop where they can exchange their gwf gear for scourge gear.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
The only thing I can say is: fix Roar and leave everything else as it is. I dont even understand why you, the devs, creating work that is not needed?? As others have said, the gwf was nearly balanced.
Your changing like everything that matters on this class.
Why??
I dont even play my gwf anymore since mod2, but I want a challange and not see hundrets of disappointed gwf players leave the game due these changes. I really cant understand these heavy changes. I really cant.
Rationale: Destroyers are increasingly looking at single target damage with Feats like Executioner's style and Focused Destroyer. So you might as well buff them to make them viable for Boss fights (where Boss HP will take quite some hitting with GWF skills to bring below 30%). Following suggestion will increase damage for Restoring strike & Flourish (since many have pointed out that IBS is AoE, it should not have any impact).
Suggestion: Steel grace-Your skills with weaponry increase, increasing your single target encounter damage by 10%. Rank 2+10%. Rank 3. +10%.
OR Allow the SM Destroyers to be what they were truly intended to be.. AoE damage beasts. This has little impact on PvP but will be a remarkable QoL improvement for SMs
Rationale: Improve AoE damage of SM Destroyers with buff to Weapon Master strike.
Suggestion: Weapon Master's Strike now also reduces your target Mitigation to your Encounter powers 4/8/12/16/20%.
With just a week or so left, I am losing hope. It is increasingly looking like IV or nothing for GWFs. (Hope I did not miss any SM Destroyer updates ; could not find any on the dev tracker recently).
Threatening Rush:
As previously mentioned, I'm just reiterating to ensure notice - Threatening Rush only places a Mark on the target of the ability, it does not Mark any other NPC's, no matter how close.
Spinning Strike:
This doesn't appear to be interrupted as I had earlier thought, it is broken when I try to move. Is this WIA? If so, why do we get increased Run Speed while active? This seems counterintuitive.
Feedback
Encounters:
Have the encounter dragons received a substantial buff, or have defensive abilities/DR been modified in some manner? In the last couple of days, I'm noticing I'm receiving *substantially* more damage from the encounter dragons, sometimes even one-shotting me, even in their minor "red zone" attacks, like the AOE knockbacks.
Threat:
Additionally, I've noticed some issues with threat not being able to be maintained/not latching. For example, yesterday with the Whispering Caverns dragon, I had multiple issues with the dragon not being "taunted" on to me even though I TR'd multiple times. There were only a few of us at the encounter - a DC, SW, and an HR. Even if I was being substantially outdamaged, which I was not, shouldn't I have been able to maintain or achieve threat lock? I TR'd 3 times and the dragon continued to assault others for 8-10 seconds afterwards (1 charge to close, then rapidly burnt the other two charges trying to "regain" threat). Other situations *may* have had other players as contributing factors, but in this case, I can't see anything that should have caused this.
Threatening Rush/Melee Mobility:
The more I use this, the more I'd like to ask for A) more charges,
I may have a some Sprint left to run back to the fight, but since we are pretty much a "point blank" DPS design, our damage will and does suffer on fights with a high degree of disconnects - I've parsed up to 40-50% delta's. If our charge is going to include a taunt, we need ways to be able to re-engage the mob, particularly boss types. Too many times I have to run from the mob to avoid major attacks, I run back to the mobs to engage again - oh, wait - now his PB attack is winding up, have to run away again, start back towards the boss, now I have to dodge the mini circles.
Closing Notes:
When will we see some love to the Instigator tree? I'd love to see some options for our class other than cookie cutter Destro or cookie cutter Sentinel. As the tree currently sits, I can't find any real viability for it, and it seems a shame to let something that could provide more utility to the class lie fallow.
Thank you for your consideration, and your time. I'm really looking forward to Mod 4.
I just try in ice wind, the combo daring shout / battle fury / ibs in an attempt to try to sustain a good single target ending the combo with a ibs aoe.
the problem:
the gap between the minimum damage and maximum damage is unreasonably high (or there is some inconsistency in the critical severity). reaching 30k critical difference (perfect vorpal).
problem already pointed out because of the new mechanics of the destroyer.
suggestion: steel grace (more useless than ever) could act as a regulator to gwf damage (up in 10/20/30% the minimum damage) or a more generous bonus for encounters.
is a common power in mmos, with the difference that, in this case, is critical exchange for "guaranteed hit" (a problem that does not exist here).
would give an opportunity for the sm in pvp and would cause the gwf not be excluded from pve.
please think about it. the fact that the arp be working on two useless powers not make them less useless. only show the gulf that existed previously. is a reasonable suggestion.
well, sugestion for a new module
i short: the autonomy of iv tanks to Trample the Fallen+Frontline Surge is so big... i really dont understand this "balance". i need spend 10 points in destroyer to do the same ibs to iv.
really, rentless battle fury is a dead feet.
yeah. seems to not work.
server back to work to me and i discovery nothing has changed.
is apparently not counting appropriately with critical severity.
maybe the problem is bf (150 severity)
With approximately 40% critical for me, Daring Shout and IBS rarelly crit (about 1 crit every 20 IBS/Daring Shout)
I pointed this problem in mod3 changes GWF feedback but Chris dont reply to it .
Whit 50% rate GWF have only 30% true rate from 1000 hits. GWF crit chance is not working mybe Weapon Master is not working.
yeah someting went wrong with gwf crtic rate since mod 3 since then my crtcics rates are way less then 48% how much i have with weapon master stacked