Damage is so varied, i'm wondering what method you used to test.
I respecced so that literally my DR was at 3% (unnecessary, but makes it easier) then let something hit me until unstoppable was at 100% and 50%, then immediately activated it and check the % of damage I received from the attack; its not hard.
as you nerfed alot from our class, and we dont have a dodge skill, not anymore, in pvp, make our daily undodgeble by other classes ... cuz it sux to loose my daily all the time
There is a bug in preview server - I can't add a point to Sentinel's Aegis feat. It lasts over a week now.
Feat Devastating Critical doesn't show it's % in statistics (character sheet) - in GWF or Warlock class.
Its very hard to test anything if you can't queue for any epic dungeon in prewiev server - queue doesn't work. Normal mobs in Sharandar/Dread Ring or Icewind Dale are not strong enough to test your changes.
There is a bug in preview server - I can't add a point to Sentinel's Aegis feat. It lasts over a week now.
Feat Devastating Critical doesn't show it's % in statistics (character sheet) - in GWF or Warlock class.
Its very hard to test anything if you can't queue for any epic dungeon in prewiev server - queue doesn't work. Normal mobs in Sharandar/Dread Ring or Icewind Dale are not strong enough to test your changes.
You can add the last feat point, but its behind the image. Look closely.
Sentinel's Aegis causes the DR to be 40~80% regardless of what it would have been naturally. The tooltip just wrote so nice and even with 5 times more
Does that mean the DR is capped at 80% for the "max" value DR used against armor penetration calculation in PvP?
By your explanation, if someone managed to stack up to 50% DR naturally, it would get lowered to 40% DR if they popped Unstoppable at 50% determination? If this is how Unstoppable works now, does that mean a GWF's DR would be lowered to 15-30% if they used Unstoppable without Aegis?
I have been looking at the leader board on live. And I feel that things are being misconstrued to the determent of GWF's.
This was the statement to justify the changes made to GWF
Great Weapon Fighters have been dominating in PvP and we wanted to take this opportunity to dial them back a little bit by giving them some more severe choices to make when deciding between survivability and damage. On top of that we have also given them some improvements to Mark to increase their tanking utility. Please note that these changes are for Module 4, Tyranny of Dragons.
But when you look at the actual facts (leaderboard) this turns out to not be true at all.
If you look at the pictures below you will see there is a very good spread between the classes in all measured aspects of PVP.
I feel as others do that the problem isn't actually imbalance in the classes (for the most part) and that it's a gear related, combined with the nature of the GWF being heavily loaded into a quick burst that makes it seem unfair when the larger picture isn't looked at.
I also feel that a large part of the problem is that people who don't play the class have difficulty differentiating a Sentinel vs a Destroyer. For example they go to a point and they can't do a lot of damage tanky GWF there who is a Sentinel then they run to another point and they take a lot of damage from a GWF who is a Destroyer and the two just merge in there minds and it becomes GWF is too tanky and does too much damage which is complicated by the fact that both generally use the same skill rotation.
I am the same I admit, I haven't played a Hunter so when I fight them all I see is HR I can't really distinguish the varied specs and changes based on there tree/builds. I just look at what skills they are using against me and react as needed.
As a person with a lot of experience in PvP (Grandmaster of Gladiators) I have fought every class in every combination in all forms of PVP many times over and I can say for a fact that all classes have methods to shut down a GWF.
CW: The toughest CW's for me to deal with are the ones that focus on control using repel to just push me away and using Entangling Force and just plinking away at me from range when I use Unstoppable it's a simple matter of timing there dodges. FLS has a huge opener all they have to do is watch for my arm to raise then dodge. I will TR and they will dodge again before I can use Takedown, if they can make those two dodges they have basically won. There cooldowns will be up control and plink me till Ice Knife is up and it's game over for me. Also effective is when they use Entangling Force then drop a meatball (shard) on my head knocking me down then explode it as soon as I stand up.
HR: Another class that can beat me if they simply know what to do. Drop the Thorn Ward in combination with Constricting Shot and just dodge back and forth though the thorns, if I run though it it will chip away at me if I go around it they just get free hits on me. HR who is well geared can easily regen dodge fast enough to constantly stay out of range of my attack or be immune to them. And again when I use Unstoppable it's all about if they can react and dodge my attacks. If they can they win.
GF: Again it's all about the gear and the spec, the hardest GFs are ones that just control me, knock me down knock me back hit me while i'm prone and block when I go Unstoppable.
TR: What even needs to be said about TR's when I go Unstoppable just use there deflect or simply stealth or dodge till it runs out. Pretty much the only way I beat these guys if they know what there doing is if I can catch them with a FLS into Takedown into IBS but when gear is even there is no way one rotation of that will kill them.
Basically, having messed around quite a bit on Test my suggestion is that Takedown still needs to prone and FLS needs to have it's damage reduction lessened. Takedowns damage will still be reduced and FLS will still not prone. At that point I really feel like the GWF will be balanced (if not at a disadvantage) in relation to other classes when gear is of equal status vs people with equal experience.
I think as a Destroyer what people take for granted is that the damage is not a given, the majority of the time I am just a normal DPS melee with relatively low defense. To have high DPS I first have to build Determination, then on top of that I need to build stacks, in group based pvp many times I die before that happens. And in one v one all a person needs to do is dodge or run away while I am Unstoppable and it's nearly impossible for me to build stacks.
Below are pictures of the current leader board. Top Rank - Top Wins - Top Kills. You will see that in all area's there is a VERY even spread in the classes.
Also of note this is primarily from the perspective of a Destroyer though I have played Sentinel as well as several other classes.
P.S. I won't be replying to anyone, stay under your bridge trolls this is simply my opinion.
I have been looking at the leader board on live. And I feel that things are being misconstrued to the determent of GWF's.
This is exactly correct. I have posted here several times what the EXACT issues were with GWFs in LIVE. YOu make excellent points however one of the biggest reasons for the nerf is the matchmaking system.
It pits high ELO with low ELO to "balance teams" this causes a 16k+GS with perfects to face a 10k GS CW with lessers. Who then gets 1 rotation killed, or crit for 18k+ with IBS who complains they cant handle GWFs. GWFs are probably the easiest class to play TBH - mainly because of Unstoppable.
All that said, I 100% agree with you and am fearful for the future of GWFs. I know I DONT want to play my GWf mod 4, not because they wont be OP, but because they will feel helpless. Helpless in the sense that they wont be able to control things in order to hit them. Sentinels will have the ability to withstand damage but with all these crazy nerfs to damage like FLS and takedown, that really just hurts the other specs. The issue was never the SKILLS damage abilities but the feats of the Destroyer itself.
I too will post this one last time and let it go. Hopefully the DEVs will listen, probably not.
THE REAL ISSUE WITH GWFS:
1) Roar was a stun that gave determination, and has a LOW CD. This not only stunned characters for 2 seconds, but also built our ability to use unstoppable more often without taking damage. With the stun fix, less GWFs will slot this and HAVE to slot FLS - meaning LESS often stuns, LESS determination = LESS tanky GWFs (also less damage too since it was roar+takedown that delt alot and VERY often!)
2) Unstoppable Recovery was NOT respecting HD. Many times I have ACT this and this one feat provided an INSANE amount of healing. Frankly this is what makes GWFs FEEL so tanky. NOW that this is gone, you will see a BIG difference in the GWFs ability ti live long duration fights.
3) Focused Detroyer Stacks. This one feat combined with the Capstone is what gave IBS and takedown their insane damage. If they re-focus this feat BACK to a PVE feat, removing it from PVP alligns GWFs damage to where it should probably be. Take this ONE feat off, and GWFs lose the ability to (by themsevles) get even over 10k takedowns. If the target has debuffs thats different. All you need here is to less the proc chance to 10% off ANY attack and itll be only used in PVE.
If you REALLY feel the need to nerf GWFs tankiness further, do the 15-30% Unstoppable. Im fine with that nerf as well eventhough its honestly not needed.
Im honestly even fine with prones moving to stuns due to deflect issue. Thats fine with me too. But you should realize thats a damage nerf to GWFs who heavily relied on prones to deal alot of damage.
You SHOULDNT nerf takedown or FLS damage at all TBH.
What I find is REALLY funny, GWFs have a massive 2h sword but their at wills and encounters (base) hit weaker than all the other classes... Its ONLY through the capstone feat that Destroyers really get damage. Sure Strike hits for what 600? My GFs at will hits for 2x that.... With half the weapon damage. A TR with little daggers hits for north of 1000, heck even "cloud of steel" hits harder and thats throwing a little dagger......
GWFs NEED close combat "control" abilities to be able to deal damage, sure they dont need prones. But overall I think some of these nerfs are a little overbaord.
Steel Blitz (16th level): When you score a critical hit with a light blade or a heavy blade, you regain the use of a fighter encounter power you’ve already used in the encounter.
IF every "steel blitz hit" eat 0,1 sec of the encounters cooldonw - after use - this already creates great possibilities for both gwf and gf.
And I feel Takedown needs to prone because Destroyer GWF's really need at least one reliable lead into IBS. The damage on Takedown can be reduced as long as the net effect is that it's still has a function.
This here. Been saying this over and over in nearly every post.
Since this thread is for feedback, I posted above but Ive been chewing on these changes more and am hoping that maybe if more people voice theirs this will be looked at.
So here is my feedback:
I very much dislike these changes, and it doesnt have anything to do with a personal power trip. I dont care if GWFs are not "top dogs" - which BTW they are arguable #2 or #3 in PVP.
The biggest reason I am very "let down" with these changes is that now I feel like a GWF is going to turn into a cheese fest. Players are going to focus more on stacking stamina gain, for the ability to run around having immunity and added DR on nodes as a Sent and not even fight. Much like the Perma TR is today. Players will end up doing short "bursts" of sprint, tapping this just to have immunity in between attacks.
Correlating Sprint to DR and Immunity really makes me un-motivated to play this class. Because I dont see how this will be fun at all, only that it will be abused and unfun for many reasons. I very much dislike "cheese" abilities, like a "perma sprint" build or even just cheesing the mechanic.
GWFs were not FAR from being balanced this entire time. Mod 2 brought IV which was honestly a mistake - its ok weve moved on. But then you guys overbuffed Destroyer - without fixing some of the issues. This causes a perception for people to see them as OP. Which they partly are, but not from what people are saying.
Honestly Crush, ALL you needed to do was
1) Focused Destroyer - chance to gain a stack from ANY attack dropped down to 5-10% (from 25%) - This removes a 40% damage boost for GWFs in PVP since it would no longer be that viable. GWFs would slot weapon master or trample the fallen for damage, but not 40%.
2) Roar stun fixed so it no longer stuns, only interrupts powers in use - most GWFs wont even run roar anymore.
3) Unstoppable Recovery healing depression fix.
4) T1 PVP armor Heal Depression Fixed.
NO damage nerfs needed on abilities since this ONLY hurts other GWF paragons No prones removed. I get the FLS change to stun, and since you can feat this for an extra second this makes sense too and is STILL viable for control but it didnt need a damage nerf....
But takedown does NOT need a damage nerf, nor a prone nerf. This is one of the MOST crucial aspects to playing a GWF. The ability to get ontop of someone and prone them for an IBS hit. I mean IBS is such a long cooldown, and its easy to avoid you HAVE to use it with a prone or it doesnt do much damage. Removing destroyer purpose stacks will cut the damage on IBS alot already! (40%!)
I very much dislike CC immunity on sprint. You want to add some DR, go for it. Although I dont see the purpose in removing DR from unstoppable and adding it to sprint, id rather just see it kept on Unstoppable.
These changes make it VERY lackluster to play a GWF and it saddens me that all my time/effot/farming are going to be wasted since PVP will be all about who can cheese sprint the most, and its not just that, because GWFs NEED sprint in their current form to be viable.
Please consider rolling back alot of these changes as I have addressed the KEY issues above, I will post them AGAIN here below:
Honestly Crush, ALL you needed to do was
1) Focused Destroyer- chance to gain a stack from ANY attack dropped down to 5-10% (from 25%) - This removes a 40% damage boost for GWFs in PVP since it would no longer be that viable. GWFs would slot weapon master or trample the fallen for damage, but not 40%.
2) Roar stun fixed so it no longer stuns, only interrupts powers in use - most GWFs wont even run roar anymore.
3) Unstoppable Recovery healing depression fix.
4) T1 PVP armor Heal Depression Fixed.
25% chance is the "focused destroyer " and not the destroyer porpose . the bonus is not "40%" and you just need avoid the fight by 3 sec to lose this bonus (historical problem in pve).
now I wonder understand why the tank encounter will give more damage bonus than gwf/destroyer encounter (bf). what happened to the "tank vs dps"? why at less, you can not give a extra "radius" damage bonus? why unstoppable still penalizing the atwill damage if it loose your "tank function"?
Since this thread is for feedback, I posted above but Ive been chewing on these changes more and am hoping that maybe if more people voice theirs this will be looked at.
So here is my feedback:
I very much dislike these changes, and it doesnt have anything to do with a personal power trip. I dont care if GWFs are not "top dogs" - which BTW they are arguable #2 or #3 in PVP.
The biggest reason I am very "let down" with these changes is that now I feel like a GWF is going to turn into a cheese fest. Players are going to focus more on stacking stamina gain, for the ability to run around having immunity and added DR on nodes as a Sent and not even fight. Much like the Perma TR is today. Players will end up doing short "bursts" of sprint, tapping this just to have immunity in between attacks.
Correlating Sprint to DR and Immunity really makes me un-motivated to play this class. Because I dont see how this will be fun at all, only that it will be abused and unfun for many reasons. I very much dislike "cheese" abilities, like a "perma sprint" build or even just cheesing the mechanic.
GWFs were not FAR from being balanced this entire time. Mod 2 brought IV which was honestly a mistake - its ok weve moved on. But then you guys overbuffed Destroyer - without fixing some of the issues. This causes a perception for people to see them as OP. Which they partly are, but not from what people are saying.
Honestly Crush, ALL you needed to do was
1) Destroyers Purpose - chance to gain a stack from ANY attack dropped down to 5-10% (from 25%) - This removes a 40% damage boost for GWFs in PVP since it would no longer be that viable. GWFs would slot weapon master or trample the fallen for damage, but not 40%.
2) Roar stun fixed so it no longer stuns, only interrupts powers in use - most GWFs wont even run roar anymore.
3) Unstoppable Recovery healing depression fix.
4) T1 PVP armor Heal Depression Fixed.
NO damage nerfs needed on abilities since this ONLY hurts other GWF paragons No prones removed. I get the FLS change to stun, and since you can feat this for an extra second this makes sense too and is STILL viable for control but it didnt need a damage nerf....
But takedown does NOT need a damage nerf, nor a prone nerf. This is one of the MOST crucial aspects to playing a GWF. The ability to get ontop of someone and prone them for an IBS hit. I mean IBS is such a long cooldown, and its easy to avoid you HAVE to use it with a prone or it doesnt do much damage. Removing destroyer purpose stacks will cut the damage on IBS alot already! (40%!)
I very much dislike CC immunity on sprint. You want to add some DR, go for it. Although I dont see the purpose in removing DR from unstoppable and adding it to sprint, id rather just see it kept on Unstoppable.
These changes make it VERY lackluster to play a GWF and it saddens me that all my time/effot/farming are going to be wasted since PVP will be all about who can cheese sprint the most, and its not just that, because GWFs NEED sprint in their current form to be viable.
Please consider rolling back alot of these changes as I have addressed the KEY issues above, I will post them AGAIN here below:
Honestly Crush, ALL you needed to do was
1) Destroyers Purpose - chance to gain a stack from ANY attack dropped down to 5-10% (from 25%) - This removes a 40% damage boost for GWFs in PVP since it would no longer be that viable. GWFs would slot weapon master or trample the fallen for damage, but not 40%.
2) Roar stun fixed so it no longer stuns, only interrupts powers in use - most GWFs wont even run roar anymore.
3) Unstoppable Recovery healing depression fix.
4) T1 PVP armor Heal Depression Fixed.
5) FrontLine can keep its "stun" change.
this post is on point, espeically how easy it is to get destroyer's purpose with dots
Ayroux are you sure T1 PvP 4 set power is supposed to be affected by healing depression? Just to say...it's a PvP set with a healing 4 pieces power...what's the point in making the power of a PvP set, reduced if you use it in PvP?...Makes no sense to me.
My feedback:
- Relentless battle fury: add punishing charge to the list of powers. Would help destroyers get more mobility and make Roar the choice for PvE to keep determination up, while making punishing charge a possibile choice to have more mobility in PvP.
- If prone and CC chains are removed (ok for me), Flourish and IBS at least should get way faster animations to be able to land directly. Cause right now they can be dodged easily, and that's the reason why almost no GWF uses Flourish in PvP.
- Move the healing effect of Heroic Duelist set to Profund sets. It's by far the most useful 4 pieces bonus and does not really fit a T1 armor. Heroic Duelist should then get the deflection/ slow down bonus.
futuunMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Feedback: Destroyer's Purpose
This feat can stack from DoT/weapon damage. Reaching 20 stacks of Destroyer's Purpose with plaguefire enchant lasts 1-2 second.
This is way too little!
It should be fixed in mod 4 - only daily, encounter and at-will powers should give us Destroyer's Purpose stacks.
This feat can stack from DoT/weapon damage. Reaching 20 stacks of Destroyer's Purpose with plaguefire enchant lasts 1-2 second.
This is way too little!
It should be fixed in mod 4 - only daily, encounter and at-will powers should give us Destroyer's Purpose stacks.
Wow I almost lost hope, this is the first sensible suggestion/feedback in the last 3-4 pages. People are going overboard with all sorts of fictional changes to the GWF.
The facts are we are about to eat a serious nerf, so lets man up and take it raw. If Mod 4 proves the GWF changes as too severe Im sure the Devs will do something about it
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
25% chance is the "focused destroyer " and not the destroyer porpose . the bonus is not "40%" and you just need avoid the fight by 3 sec to lose this bonus (historical problem in pve).
now I wonder understand why the tank encounter will give more damage bonus than gwf/destroyer encounter (bf). what happened to the "tank vs dps"? why at less, you can not give a extra "radius" damage bonus? why unstoppable still penalizing the atwill damage if it loose your "tank function"?
Its just shy of 40% damage boost, not 25%. If you dont believe me go to ToB and SS your TT before and after, then take the after and divide it by the before and youll see a numer that looks like 1.39.... on your calculator. That means a 39% dmg boost aka 40%.
I'm a little disappointed to see the feedback focus is on lowering Destroyer damage considering they are already receiving the brunt of the mod 4 Nerfs in the form of lowered DR on Unstoppable. =(
Not everyone wants to pigeon holed into Sentinel just to PvP.
u r both talking about 2 diffrent feats, 1 is destroyer purpose which stacks upto 20 and 1 is destroyer (class feature) which stacks only 3 times , u have to slot this 1 also to get this buff.
u r both talking about 2 diffrent feats, 1 is destroyer purpose which stacks upto 20 and 1 is destroyer (class feature) which stacks only 3 times , u have to slot this 1 also to get this buff.
This.
I AM NOT talking about the capstone. I think that is fine. I am talking about the T4 feat where you slot "destroyer" class feature, and feat it 5/5 points to gain a 25% chance to gain a stack off ANY attack.
This is what causes insane damage - because you combine even just 2 stacks of this + Destoryer Capstone and have near DOUBLE damage.
So removing THIS feature from PVP will not nerf the class in its entirety, but it will remove those CRAZY takedown crits for 12k. Those 12k hits, will be more like 6-7k at full stacks IN unstoppable.
While its not a MAJOR issue, this is what is causing the massive damage spikes.
I FIRMLY believe they need to un-nerf the class. The change to Roar/Unstoppable Recovery will already nerf the tankiness ALOT - trust me. So the biggest issue people were having is the crazy crits we could get, the 17k+ IBS, the 12k takedowns. This was only possible from the Destroyer Class Feature where you gain a ~40% (I think its like 39%) damage boost from this feat.
Remove this and DEstroyers will end up slotting Weapon master (more crit) or trample the fallen (15% more damage) but its only to CONTROLLED targets. So it reduces some of the damage from those random 12k+ takedowns.
Will it still hurt? YOU BETCHA! But itll require more "skill" and "work" to do - even WITH takedown prone.
I am FINE with FLS being a stun, like I said you can feat it so it retains decent control, and wont bypass deflect now, which BTW ALREADY nerfs GWFs "combo" of FLS->Takedown->IBS. Because FLS proned, so now takedown - WONT bypass deflect and WONT benefit from the 40% dmg boost possible from the T4 feat.
Total damage loss, but the GWF (being a fighter... cmon guys...) retiains SOME level of melee control AND the ability to use takedown to set up an IBS. IBS will lose some damage too from this, so that 17k+ Crit will turn back down to 12-14k. So it would NEED to have a way to bypass deflect via prone to be any good.
Right now the solution is to remove the prone but leave the damage, this will only STILL create criers who STILL get hit for 17k+ because they have low deflect and no tenacity. Removing the feat, but giving the prone reduces damage so its a better "average" damage and less of a MASSIVE "range" of damage possibilities.
EDIT: To clarify when I say remove the feat, I mean to reduce the proc chance so low that it doesnt benefit PVPers who attack in short bursts. What need to happen to the feat is give a LOW proc chance of say 5% off ANY attack, it still gives a bonus when attacking 3 things or more, but make the stacks last for maybe 5-6 seconds instead of I think 3... This makes it MORE a PVE feat and much less reliable damage in PVP - which is NEEDED.
Comments
I respecced so that literally my DR was at 3% (unnecessary, but makes it easier) then let something hit me until unstoppable was at 100% and 50%, then immediately activated it and check the % of damage I received from the attack; its not hard.
Feat Devastating Critical doesn't show it's % in statistics (character sheet) - in GWF or Warlock class.
Its very hard to test anything if you can't queue for any epic dungeon in prewiev server - queue doesn't work. Normal mobs in Sharandar/Dread Ring or Icewind Dale are not strong enough to test your changes.
You can add the last feat point, but its behind the image. Look closely.
Sentinel's Aegis causes the DR to be 40~80% regardless of what it would have been naturally. The tooltip just wrote so nice and even with 5 times more
Does that mean the DR is capped at 80% for the "max" value DR used against armor penetration calculation in PvP?
By your explanation, if someone managed to stack up to 50% DR naturally, it would get lowered to 40% DR if they popped Unstoppable at 50% determination? If this is how Unstoppable works now, does that mean a GWF's DR would be lowered to 15-30% if they used Unstoppable without Aegis?
This was the statement to justify the changes made to GWF
Great Weapon Fighters have been dominating in PvP and we wanted to take this opportunity to dial them back a little bit by giving them some more severe choices to make when deciding between survivability and damage. On top of that we have also given them some improvements to Mark to increase their tanking utility. Please note that these changes are for Module 4, Tyranny of Dragons.
But when you look at the actual facts (leaderboard) this turns out to not be true at all.
If you look at the pictures below you will see there is a very good spread between the classes in all measured aspects of PVP.
I feel as others do that the problem isn't actually imbalance in the classes (for the most part) and that it's a gear related, combined with the nature of the GWF being heavily loaded into a quick burst that makes it seem unfair when the larger picture isn't looked at.
I also feel that a large part of the problem is that people who don't play the class have difficulty differentiating a Sentinel vs a Destroyer. For example they go to a point and they can't do a lot of damage tanky GWF there who is a Sentinel then they run to another point and they take a lot of damage from a GWF who is a Destroyer and the two just merge in there minds and it becomes GWF is too tanky and does too much damage which is complicated by the fact that both generally use the same skill rotation.
I am the same I admit, I haven't played a Hunter so when I fight them all I see is HR I can't really distinguish the varied specs and changes based on there tree/builds. I just look at what skills they are using against me and react as needed.
As a person with a lot of experience in PvP (Grandmaster of Gladiators) I have fought every class in every combination in all forms of PVP many times over and I can say for a fact that all classes have methods to shut down a GWF.
CW: The toughest CW's for me to deal with are the ones that focus on control using repel to just push me away and using Entangling Force and just plinking away at me from range when I use Unstoppable it's a simple matter of timing there dodges. FLS has a huge opener all they have to do is watch for my arm to raise then dodge. I will TR and they will dodge again before I can use Takedown, if they can make those two dodges they have basically won. There cooldowns will be up control and plink me till Ice Knife is up and it's game over for me. Also effective is when they use Entangling Force then drop a meatball (shard) on my head knocking me down then explode it as soon as I stand up.
HR: Another class that can beat me if they simply know what to do. Drop the Thorn Ward in combination with Constricting Shot and just dodge back and forth though the thorns, if I run though it it will chip away at me if I go around it they just get free hits on me. HR who is well geared can easily regen dodge fast enough to constantly stay out of range of my attack or be immune to them. And again when I use Unstoppable it's all about if they can react and dodge my attacks. If they can they win.
GF: Again it's all about the gear and the spec, the hardest GFs are ones that just control me, knock me down knock me back hit me while i'm prone and block when I go Unstoppable.
TR: What even needs to be said about TR's when I go Unstoppable just use there deflect or simply stealth or dodge till it runs out. Pretty much the only way I beat these guys if they know what there doing is if I can catch them with a FLS into Takedown into IBS but when gear is even there is no way one rotation of that will kill them.
Basically, having messed around quite a bit on Test my suggestion is that Takedown still needs to prone and FLS needs to have it's damage reduction lessened. Takedowns damage will still be reduced and FLS will still not prone. At that point I really feel like the GWF will be balanced (if not at a disadvantage) in relation to other classes when gear is of equal status vs people with equal experience.
I think as a Destroyer what people take for granted is that the damage is not a given, the majority of the time I am just a normal DPS melee with relatively low defense. To have high DPS I first have to build Determination, then on top of that I need to build stacks, in group based pvp many times I die before that happens. And in one v one all a person needs to do is dodge or run away while I am Unstoppable and it's nearly impossible for me to build stacks.
Below are pictures of the current leader board. Top Rank - Top Wins - Top Kills. You will see that in all area's there is a VERY even spread in the classes.
Also of note this is primarily from the perspective of a Destroyer though I have played Sentinel as well as several other classes.
P.S. I won't be replying to anyone, stay under your bridge trolls this is simply my opinion.
This is exactly correct. I have posted here several times what the EXACT issues were with GWFs in LIVE. YOu make excellent points however one of the biggest reasons for the nerf is the matchmaking system.
It pits high ELO with low ELO to "balance teams" this causes a 16k+GS with perfects to face a 10k GS CW with lessers. Who then gets 1 rotation killed, or crit for 18k+ with IBS who complains they cant handle GWFs. GWFs are probably the easiest class to play TBH - mainly because of Unstoppable.
All that said, I 100% agree with you and am fearful for the future of GWFs. I know I DONT want to play my GWf mod 4, not because they wont be OP, but because they will feel helpless. Helpless in the sense that they wont be able to control things in order to hit them. Sentinels will have the ability to withstand damage but with all these crazy nerfs to damage like FLS and takedown, that really just hurts the other specs. The issue was never the SKILLS damage abilities but the feats of the Destroyer itself.
I too will post this one last time and let it go. Hopefully the DEVs will listen, probably not.
THE REAL ISSUE WITH GWFS:
1) Roar was a stun that gave determination, and has a LOW CD. This not only stunned characters for 2 seconds, but also built our ability to use unstoppable more often without taking damage. With the stun fix, less GWFs will slot this and HAVE to slot FLS - meaning LESS often stuns, LESS determination = LESS tanky GWFs (also less damage too since it was roar+takedown that delt alot and VERY often!)
2) Unstoppable Recovery was NOT respecting HD. Many times I have ACT this and this one feat provided an INSANE amount of healing. Frankly this is what makes GWFs FEEL so tanky. NOW that this is gone, you will see a BIG difference in the GWFs ability ti live long duration fights.
3) Focused Detroyer Stacks. This one feat combined with the Capstone is what gave IBS and takedown their insane damage. If they re-focus this feat BACK to a PVE feat, removing it from PVP alligns GWFs damage to where it should probably be. Take this ONE feat off, and GWFs lose the ability to (by themsevles) get even over 10k takedowns. If the target has debuffs thats different. All you need here is to less the proc chance to 10% off ANY attack and itll be only used in PVE.
If you REALLY feel the need to nerf GWFs tankiness further, do the 15-30% Unstoppable. Im fine with that nerf as well eventhough its honestly not needed.
Im honestly even fine with prones moving to stuns due to deflect issue. Thats fine with me too. But you should realize thats a damage nerf to GWFs who heavily relied on prones to deal alot of damage.
You SHOULDNT nerf takedown or FLS damage at all TBH.
What I find is REALLY funny, GWFs have a massive 2h sword but their at wills and encounters (base) hit weaker than all the other classes... Its ONLY through the capstone feat that Destroyers really get damage. Sure Strike hits for what 600? My GFs at will hits for 2x that.... With half the weapon damage. A TR with little daggers hits for north of 1000, heck even "cloud of steel" hits harder and thats throwing a little dagger......
GWFs NEED close combat "control" abilities to be able to deal damage, sure they dont need prones. But overall I think some of these nerfs are a little overbaord.
IF every "steel blitz hit" eat 0,1 sec of the encounters cooldonw - after use - this already creates great possibilities for both gwf and gf.
This here. Been saying this over and over in nearly every post.
So here is my feedback:
I very much dislike these changes, and it doesnt have anything to do with a personal power trip. I dont care if GWFs are not "top dogs" - which BTW they are arguable #2 or #3 in PVP.
The biggest reason I am very "let down" with these changes is that now I feel like a GWF is going to turn into a cheese fest. Players are going to focus more on stacking stamina gain, for the ability to run around having immunity and added DR on nodes as a Sent and not even fight. Much like the Perma TR is today. Players will end up doing short "bursts" of sprint, tapping this just to have immunity in between attacks.
Correlating Sprint to DR and Immunity really makes me un-motivated to play this class. Because I dont see how this will be fun at all, only that it will be abused and unfun for many reasons. I very much dislike "cheese" abilities, like a "perma sprint" build or even just cheesing the mechanic.
GWFs were not FAR from being balanced this entire time. Mod 2 brought IV which was honestly a mistake - its ok weve moved on. But then you guys overbuffed Destroyer - without fixing some of the issues. This causes a perception for people to see them as OP. Which they partly are, but not from what people are saying.
Honestly Crush, ALL you needed to do was
1) Focused Destroyer - chance to gain a stack from ANY attack dropped down to 5-10% (from 25%) - This removes a 40% damage boost for GWFs in PVP since it would no longer be that viable. GWFs would slot weapon master or trample the fallen for damage, but not 40%.
2) Roar stun fixed so it no longer stuns, only interrupts powers in use - most GWFs wont even run roar anymore.
3) Unstoppable Recovery healing depression fix.
4) T1 PVP armor Heal Depression Fixed.
NO damage nerfs needed on abilities since this ONLY hurts other GWF paragons No prones removed. I get the FLS change to stun, and since you can feat this for an extra second this makes sense too and is STILL viable for control but it didnt need a damage nerf....
But takedown does NOT need a damage nerf, nor a prone nerf. This is one of the MOST crucial aspects to playing a GWF. The ability to get ontop of someone and prone them for an IBS hit. I mean IBS is such a long cooldown, and its easy to avoid you HAVE to use it with a prone or it doesnt do much damage. Removing destroyer purpose stacks will cut the damage on IBS alot already! (40%!)
I very much dislike CC immunity on sprint. You want to add some DR, go for it. Although I dont see the purpose in removing DR from unstoppable and adding it to sprint, id rather just see it kept on Unstoppable.
These changes make it VERY lackluster to play a GWF and it saddens me that all my time/effot/farming are going to be wasted since PVP will be all about who can cheese sprint the most, and its not just that, because GWFs NEED sprint in their current form to be viable.
Please consider rolling back alot of these changes as I have addressed the KEY issues above, I will post them AGAIN here below:
Honestly Crush, ALL you needed to do was
1) Focused Destroyer- chance to gain a stack from ANY attack dropped down to 5-10% (from 25%) - This removes a 40% damage boost for GWFs in PVP since it would no longer be that viable. GWFs would slot weapon master or trample the fallen for damage, but not 40%.
2) Roar stun fixed so it no longer stuns, only interrupts powers in use - most GWFs wont even run roar anymore.
3) Unstoppable Recovery healing depression fix.
4) T1 PVP armor Heal Depression Fixed.
5) FrontLine can keep its "stun" change.
now I wonder understand why the tank encounter will give more damage bonus than gwf/destroyer encounter (bf). what happened to the "tank vs dps"? why at less, you can not give a extra "radius" damage bonus? why unstoppable still penalizing the atwill damage if it loose your "tank function"?
this post is on point, espeically how easy it is to get destroyer's purpose with dots
however, idk about 5-10% haha
My feedback:
- Relentless battle fury: add punishing charge to the list of powers. Would help destroyers get more mobility and make Roar the choice for PvE to keep determination up, while making punishing charge a possibile choice to have more mobility in PvP.
- If prone and CC chains are removed (ok for me), Flourish and IBS at least should get way faster animations to be able to land directly. Cause right now they can be dodged easily, and that's the reason why almost no GWF uses Flourish in PvP.
- Move the healing effect of Heroic Duelist set to Profund sets. It's by far the most useful 4 pieces bonus and does not really fit a T1 armor. Heroic Duelist should then get the deflection/ slow down bonus.
This feat can stack from DoT/weapon damage. Reaching 20 stacks of Destroyer's Purpose with plaguefire enchant lasts 1-2 second.
This is way too little!
It should be fixed in mod 4 - only daily, encounter and at-will powers should give us Destroyer's Purpose stacks.
Wow I almost lost hope, this is the first sensible suggestion/feedback in the last 3-4 pages. People are going overboard with all sorts of fictional changes to the GWF.
The facts are we are about to eat a serious nerf, so lets man up and take it raw. If Mod 4 proves the GWF changes as too severe Im sure the Devs will do something about it
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
The issue isnt with Destroyers Purpose (Capstone) its with Focused Destroyer. Ill update my Post. THANKS!
Capstone should stay as is.
Its just shy of 40% damage boost, not 25%. If you dont believe me go to ToB and SS your TT before and after, then take the after and divide it by the before and youll see a numer that looks like 1.39.... on your calculator. That means a 39% dmg boost aka 40%.
Not everyone wants to pigeon holed into Sentinel just to PvP.
This.
I AM NOT talking about the capstone. I think that is fine. I am talking about the T4 feat where you slot "destroyer" class feature, and feat it 5/5 points to gain a 25% chance to gain a stack off ANY attack.
This is what causes insane damage - because you combine even just 2 stacks of this + Destoryer Capstone and have near DOUBLE damage.
So removing THIS feature from PVP will not nerf the class in its entirety, but it will remove those CRAZY takedown crits for 12k. Those 12k hits, will be more like 6-7k at full stacks IN unstoppable.
While its not a MAJOR issue, this is what is causing the massive damage spikes.
I FIRMLY believe they need to un-nerf the class. The change to Roar/Unstoppable Recovery will already nerf the tankiness ALOT - trust me. So the biggest issue people were having is the crazy crits we could get, the 17k+ IBS, the 12k takedowns. This was only possible from the Destroyer Class Feature where you gain a ~40% (I think its like 39%) damage boost from this feat.
Remove this and DEstroyers will end up slotting Weapon master (more crit) or trample the fallen (15% more damage) but its only to CONTROLLED targets. So it reduces some of the damage from those random 12k+ takedowns.
Will it still hurt? YOU BETCHA! But itll require more "skill" and "work" to do - even WITH takedown prone.
I am FINE with FLS being a stun, like I said you can feat it so it retains decent control, and wont bypass deflect now, which BTW ALREADY nerfs GWFs "combo" of FLS->Takedown->IBS. Because FLS proned, so now takedown - WONT bypass deflect and WONT benefit from the 40% dmg boost possible from the T4 feat.
Total damage loss, but the GWF (being a fighter... cmon guys...) retiains SOME level of melee control AND the ability to use takedown to set up an IBS. IBS will lose some damage too from this, so that 17k+ Crit will turn back down to 12-14k. So it would NEED to have a way to bypass deflect via prone to be any good.
Right now the solution is to remove the prone but leave the damage, this will only STILL create criers who STILL get hit for 17k+ because they have low deflect and no tenacity. Removing the feat, but giving the prone reduces damage so its a better "average" damage and less of a MASSIVE "range" of damage possibilities.
EDIT: To clarify when I say remove the feat, I mean to reduce the proc chance so low that it doesnt benefit PVPers who attack in short bursts. What need to happen to the feat is give a LOW proc chance of say 5% off ANY attack, it still gives a bonus when attacking 3 things or more, but make the stacks last for maybe 5-6 seconds instead of I think 3... This makes it MORE a PVE feat and much less reliable damage in PVP - which is NEEDED.