about pve, destroyers must be the best/ on top with cws in aoe damage. Else, no point in inviting the.
In pvp:
- roar must danze
- takedown stun and daze and faster animation
- flourish much faster animation
- ibs faster animation.
Gwf must be abile to and their hits and with current changes alone Andy player will easily dodge anything coming from a gwf.
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Marking
Mark FX and damage bonus effect disappears after the normal duration, however Mark debuff in buffs list remains on target until it is struck again
Threatening Rush
If Threatening Rush is terminated early by using an Encounter or Daily Power (but not via Sprint), the character will have "teleported" towards the target, but not consume a charge of Threatening Rush, allowing players to ignore the 3 charge limit effectively
Animation Cancelling
Indomitable Strength when cancelled via Sprint will continue to deal the 2nd hit damage while allowing the player to concurrently use other powers
Battle Fury, Come and Get It!, Daring Shout, Frontline Surge animations can be cancelled early with Sprint without losing the power's effect, but allowing the player to act significantly earlier compared to waiting for the power to end normally
Wicked Strike
Wicked Strike can be animation cancelled using Sprint immediately after initiating the attack followed by resuming the Attack to result in ~30% faster attack speed
Bug: Spinning Strike appers to get interrupted by any attack, or even running into mobs. Mobs, however, are uninterruptable - Slam, etc - nothing stops them from continuing their attack. Looking at parses, I rarely get more than 1-2 hits before it is stopped. On testing dummies, I can achieve the full duration. Is this intended? If so, why?
Feedback:
I've done days of testing over the last week or two. The below are my observations, based on Trade Of Blade dummy testing, testing in "old world" content including Mod 3 content, and also the newer Mod 4 content. These observations are based on what I have experience in a near 1:1 gear transfer from Live. While I don't have the "best" gear, I'm not in 60 greens, either. I have an AoW set, Imposing Scrapper, Purified Black Ice, and Corrupted Black Ice, using the Corrupt and Purified Weapons, mostly with Rank 8's, a few rank 7's, and a few Rank 9's that I switch around between sets. I use a Greater Plaguefire on my weapon. While I know there is "better" gear, there is also worse gear, and this, IMHO, represents a potential median to high end and entry players. I have played since Beta, and have played primarily DPS/Tank classes in MMO's prior to this. I don't PVP much, so my experiences are almost solely around PVE. I primarily play IV based Destroyer or Sentinel.
Tanking: The Good:
I like the "feel" of the new tanking. There is a noticeable difference in survivability, but nothing I would consider "game breaking". While I can't "stand and facetank" utterly, I can take a few more direct hits, and survive it. I notice a substantial reduction in DPS - 35-38% reduction vis a vis DPS build and gear - for example, in Purified/Imposing, I deal approximately 6K DPS versus 9K'ish in Corrupt/10K in AoW. Overall, I consider this a Good Thing. Tank better, hits for less. This is logical (with caveats below).
I like the increased mobility. As a scale mail clad light/mobility tank, I like the ability to sprint in/away from the mob and the ugly red stuff. This noticeably helps in encounter survivability and is noteably improved from Live. I normally can hold aggro - in most cases. On to the "not so good".
The Bad:
My DPS suffers *dramatically* as a result of the need for mobility. If the majority of our threat comes from our attacks and our ability to "move in and out", I think the penalties are perhaps a bit high, especially on longer and/or boss fights. As a result, a boss or encounter with many heavy attacks or mechanics that require me to get the heck out or die, I suffer excessively (my DPS is less than half of my ToB testing parses). For example, tanking on Vartilingorix, my DPS did not break 3k over a 14 minute fight. And in times when I was really having to dodge a lot, I sometimes would lose aggro to the ranged players.
Additionally, due to the long cooldown on TR charges, I was constantly out of charges. My only recourse was to chug Stamina potions to be able to sprint back to the mob.
Recommendation:
Reduce the cooldown on TR, increase the charges, or remove the charges altogether. Provide a temporary threat buff for (x) time after a charge. After all, it is called "Threatening" Rush. If charges are removed, in the interests of those who wish balancing in PVP, cause TR to retain the current mechanics while PVP flagged. Alternately, (for PVE), the Sentinel capstone could remove charges if the current mechanic is retained, and not for PVP - and provide a threat buff of X seconds. This is my preferred concept.
Also, I don't know of anyone who uses Reaping Strike. If it is going to be included in the feat for increased threat generation, rework it to make it feasible. Remove the "charge up", and either make it a slower attack with increased defense/deflection and increase the base damage, or substitute Wicked Strike. Or WMS. Dealers choice.
Additionally, if Marks are a source of threat, and I'm tanking, it seems counterintuitive to have the mark removed when I am immediately attacked. Perhaps the Sentinel capstone could make marks last for "x seconds after being attacked"?
Damage Dealing:
The Good:
Overall, the damage output is OK in Destroyer. I may not top the leaderboard in an encounter, but I'm up there. With better gear, I would probably do better, but not everyone is in top tier gear with full Rank 10's and Fallen Dragon weapons. Balancing the class against the top tier does, IMHO, penalize the median portion and bottom of the bell curve. Uberplayers are going to hit like trucks, no matter what - but if we normalize against that subset of the class base, it places an unfair burden on the rest of the player base of that class.
My same input applies as above. I like the enhanced mobility. It allows me to engage mobs and get in and out of the red, avoid uber attacks from the boss. Changes to the different abilities have altered the way I play the class, but haven't necessarily "broken" it - although I am not a PVP player, so my coments should be taken in context of PVE ONLY. Overall though, this feels like a good place for a lightly armored mobility striker.
The Bad:
Same as above for tanking. With the reduction in Unstoppable (which I won't argue against, no need in applying a mailed boot to a deceased equine), I am required to disconnect from the target at a much higher rate than ever before. DPS takes a drastic downturn, same as listed above. While I am theoretically able to do slightly more DPS than I did before, it is more than negated by the amount of time I now spend running about avoiding damage. Also, I find I am constantly out of charges in TR.
Recommendation:
Same as above, with flavor for Destroyer. Reduce the cooldown on TR, increase the charges, or remove the charges altogether. Provide a temporary damage buff for (x) time after a charge. After all, it is called "Threatening" Rush, meaning I'm coming in with my sword overhead for a powerful blow or two, right? If charges are removed, in the interests of those who wish balancing in PVP, cause TR to retain the current mechanics while PVP flagged. Alternately, (for PVE), the Destroyer capstone could remove charges if the current mechanic is retained, and not for PVP - and provide a damage buff of X seconds. This is my preferred concept.
We have been looking at Tanking QoL for GWFs and wanted to improve that (and by proxy improve the damage Sentinels deal both solo and in a party). Given that we are making the following changes.
Mark: No longer removed from a Great Weapon Fighter when he is struck by his foe. It will always last its full duration.
Mark: Now properly provides 20% increased damage on the target for the Great Weapon Fighter. Still provides 8% for allies.
Mark: Now properly provides Combat Advantage against marked targets. This affects the Great Weapon Fighter and his allies.
Coupled with the improved taunting that Mark now provides (by putting you at the top of the threat list and the other changes Guardians got) Sentinel Tanking should feel much more consistent and reliable, both from the bonus threat and bonus damage you can now dish out.
These changes will NOT be making it to PTS this week, but hopefully will be in after that.
We have been looking at Tanking QoL for GWFs and wanted to improve that (and by proxy improve the damage Sentinels deal both solo and in a party). Given that we are making the following changes.
Mark: No longer removed from a Great Weapon Fighter when he is struck by his foe. It will always last its full duration.
Mark: Now properly provides 20% increased damage on the target for the Great Weapon Fighter. Still provides 8% for allies.
Mark: Now properly provides Combat Advantage against marked targets. This affects the Great Weapon Fighter and his allies.
Coupled with the improved taunting that Mark now provides (by putting you at the top of the threat list and the other changes Guardians got) Sentinel Tanking should feel much more consistent and reliable, both from the bonus threat and bonus damage you can now dish out.
These changes will NOT be making it to PTS this week, but hopefully will be in after that.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Im lost Crush,
So GWFs can mark via TWO things currently.
1) IBS
2) Threat Rush
Whats the "duration" you are thinking here. AND what is the real benefit of GFs "tab" ability then if GWFs get the exact same feature? Just that its an "on demand" mark? Im a little lost to these changes.
I do like temp mark lasting a "fixed" about of time. Maybe like 4-5 seconds? But I am lost on this one....
So GWFs can mark via TWO things currently.
1) IBS
2) Threat Rush
Whats the "duration" you are thinking here. AND what is the real benefit of GFs "tab" ability then if GWFs get the exact same feature? Just that its an "on demand" mark? Im a little lost to these changes.
I do like temp mark lasting a "fixed" about of time. Maybe like 4-5 seconds? But I am lost on this one....
You forgot Daring Shout. And all Marks last 20 seconds. Guardians will still have their Marks removed if they take unblocked damage. This means the major differentiation between the two tanks is how they handle incoming damage.
Great Weapon Fighters function much more like *reactive* tanks. They respond to situations after taking the damage by timing Unstoppable and using Sprint for positioning, alongside self healing and buffs.
Guardians will operate far more *proactively*. They have to read the situation and decide what the best course of action will be in the next few seconds. Do I lower my block to activate a power? Will I be ok with KV on right now? Am I in position to maintain my marks?
Guardians have an on command mark which moves them to the top of the threat list, while GWF will have to be much more active in using his weapon and damage to stay on the top of that list. Given that and his higher weapon damage, we wanted to remove some of the major frustration of "how can I manage mark so I get something out of it?" that was very present in GWF tanking. We also wanted them to have a stronger niche in lower target situations where they can push out much more damage than a tanking Guardian can. Making Mark substantially easier to manage opens up their power selection much more for doing so.
You forgot Daring Shout. And all Marks last 20 seconds. Guardians will still have their Marks removed if they take unblocked damage. This means the major differentiation between the two tanks is how they handle incoming damage.
Great Weapon Fighters function much more like *reactive* tanks. They respond to situations after taking the damage by timing Unstoppable and using Sprint for positioning, alongside self healing and buffs.
Guardians will operate far more *proactively*. They have to read the situation and decide what the best course of action will be in the next few seconds. Do I lower my block to activate a power? Will I be ok with KV on right now? Am I in position to maintain my marks?
Guardians have an on command mark which moves them to the top of the threat list, while GWF will have to be much more active in using his weapon and damage to stay on the top of that list. Given that and his higher weapon damage, we wanted to remove some of the major frustration of "how can I manage mark so I get something out of it?" that was very present in GWF tanking. We also wanted them to have a stronger niche in lower target situations where they can push out much more damage than a tanking Guardian can. Making Mark substantially easier to manage opens up their power selection much more for doing so.
Thanks for the feedback, I guess what confuses me is whats the real benefit of a GF's tab then if GWFs can do the same thing (and actually better from the +15% dmg to market targets in sent tree).
Only the GFs tab is perma, making GWFs actually have better marking ability than GFs. GWFs Unstoppable (especially Sents) is FAR superior to GFs Shield (primarily because of the ability to still attack, and no diminished run speed) and GWFs still get sprint that gives CC immunity and 30% DR.
Maybe if the GF "tab" operated LIKE "Enforced Threat" in that it was an AOE mark/hard taunt it would be more compelling, but even then your issue would be GFs lack the tankiness that GWFs have to survive those encounters. Seems like the only real value GFs have > Sents would be into the fray or Knights Valor. But I gotta say, from a solo play situation, this is making GFs VERY sub par to GWFs.
Atleast with the initial "mark" thought GFs had something to make up for low weapon damage.
have you also thought about what this will do to destroyers damage as IV? With 10 points they can ALSO reach the Sent +15% dmg to marked targets as well so this is a pretty big damage boost to Destroyers as well...
With this change I am REALLY pleading with you that you re-address AC for GFs and give them a nice bonus to be more "on par" with GWFs. In the range of 3 AC = 2% DR up from 2AC for 1% DR... This would make PLATE wearing GFs > GWFs in tankiness....
EDIT: 20 seconds seems a little OP for PVP purposes BTW. Maybe this can get a PVE/PVP change to 5 seconds in PVP?
We have been looking at Tanking QoL for GWFs and wanted to improve that (and by proxy improve the damage Sentinels deal both solo and in a party). Given that we are making the following changes.
Mark: No longer removed from a Great Weapon Fighter when he is struck by his foe. It will always last its full duration.
Mark: Now properly provides 20% increased damage on the target for the Great Weapon Fighter. Still provides 8% for allies.
Mark: Now properly provides Combat Advantage against marked targets. This affects the Great Weapon Fighter and his allies.
Coupled with the improved taunting that Mark now provides (by putting you at the top of the threat list and the other changes Guardians got) Sentinel Tanking should feel much more consistent and reliable, both from the bonus threat and bonus damage you can now dish out.
These changes will NOT be making it to PTS this week, but hopefully will be in after that.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
can u guys implement marking ability on Swordmaster paragon maybe on Weapon Master Strike atwill?
Thanks for the feedback, I guess what confuses me is whats the real benefit of a GF's tab then if GWFs can do the same thing (and actually better from the +15% dmg to market targets in sent tree).
Only the GFs tab is perma, making GWFs actually have better marking ability than GFs. GWFs Unstoppable (especially Sents) is FAR superior to GFs Shield (primarily because of the ability to still attack, and no diminished run speed) and GWFs still get sprint that gives CC immunity and 30% DR.
Maybe if the GF "tab" operated LIKE "Enforced Threat" in that it was an AOE mark/hard taunt it would be more compelling, but even then your issue would be GFs lack the tankiness that GWFs have to survive those encounters. Seems like the only real value GFs have > Sents would be into the fray or Knights Valor. But I gotta say, from a solo play situation, this is making GFs VERY sub par to GWFs.
Atleast with the initial "mark" thought GFs had something to make up for low weapon damage.
have you also thought about what this will do to destroyers damage as IV? With 10 points they can ALSO reach the Sent +15% dmg to marked targets as well so this is a pretty big damage boost to Destroyers as well...
With this change I am REALLY pleading with you that you re-address AC for GFs and give them a nice bonus to be more "on par" with GWFs. In the range of 3 AC = 2% DR up from 2AC for 1% DR... This would make PLATE wearing GFs > GWFs in tankiness....
EDIT: 20 seconds seems a little OP for PVP purposes BTW. Maybe this can get a PVE/PVP change to 5 seconds in PVP?
The big area they will differ is on demand flexibility. In addition to the larger AoE apply that GFs have (Enforced Threat) they can also pick up new adds instantaneously. GWFs just can't without expending a Threatening Rush charge. So given this Sentinels (who do rely much more on hitting targets to keep aggro because they can't taunt as frequently) needed a little more oomph on their mark.
As far as how tanking goes, in all of our testing GF tanks have been incredibly potent and effective. I haven't really seen any indication that they need to get tankier. And as far as the PVP concern, I am loathe to make any changes without some actual testing happening on it. Especially given that people have been concerned that GWFs have lost too much recently. Giving them 1) a powerful party utility in PVP that they can control with high accuracy and 2) a way to pump out a little more damage isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially since the squishiest of classes are getting buffs (and/or changes) to make them explode just a little less fast. It just means that power selection and priority will have to grow and adjust.
It also has the added benefit of making Mark a meaningful mechanic to both kinds of Fighters, which is great in my book.
The big area they will differ is on demand flexibility. In addition to the larger AoE apply that GFs have (Enforced Threat) they can also pick up new adds instantaneously. GWFs just can't without expending a Threatening Rush charge. So given this Sentinels (who do rely much more on hitting targets to keep aggro because they can't taunt as frequently) needed a little more oomph on their mark.
As far as how tanking goes, in all of our testing GF tanks have been incredibly potent and effective. I haven't really seen any indication that they need to get tankier. And as far as the PVP concern, I am loathe to make any changes without some actual testing happening on it. Especially given that people have been concerned that GWFs have lost too much recently. Giving them 1) a powerful party utility in PVP that they can control with high accuracy and 2) a way to pump out a little more damage isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially since the squishiest of classes are getting buffs (and/or changes) to make them explode just a little less fast. It just means that power selection and priority will have to grow and adjust.
It also has the added benefit of making Mark a meaningful mechanic to both kinds of Fighters, which is great in my book.
Again thanks alot for the feedback.
Im not sure what "demand flexibility" means, unless your taking about GFs can on demand mark, while GWFs have to use an ability.
Aoe Mark on GFs would be nice, if it didnt fall off if you are attacked. Speaking from experience in recent HEs, I use Enforced Threat plenty of times, and if I use it close enough to targets, it almost auto falls off even if I am trying to block. Dont get me wrong in all this, currently mod 3 GWF is my main, but this seems a little overboard in the wrong directions...
As far as PVP ins concerned, there are alot of things that are bypassing DR - so actually my experience of not being tanky enough on BOTH GWF and GF is surrounding those powers (CW+HR) the CW capstone is getting a nerf, but again, still bypasses DR - which IMO is bad. HRs have piercing blades (dont know much about how that works). Thats a different issue though.
OVerall, while this may be a QoL improvement for GWFs my concerns are here:
1) Destroyers now deal more damage (not needed TBH) and can also access the Sent feat with 10 points for (15% more dmg to marked targets) This is compounding the issue now that mark is not removed. Maybe if this feat was moved to 15 points (T3) into the Sent tree, this would be more fair and only help Sents. Since this 20% dmg boost is a dmg boost to Destroyers as well already - now itll be 35%.
2) GWFs mark - not being removed when taking damage, is now actually superior (from my take as a GF/GWF player) to GFs. GFs only have 1 perma on demand mark, while GWFs stays just like tab, and TR is an AOE mark. IBS is very common and also marks.
3) It just seems, to be brutally honest, quite sloppy to me to give the GF a "mark" ability but then give that SAME ability to GWFs. Seems like to again being 100% honest here Chris, that ALL GF mark abilities should be "perma" like this (for GWF), and GFs should be given a new Tab ability... I know you dont want to re-do the mechanics, but I just dont see the "magic" behind GFs being able to mark on command - it even requires animation time which frankly sucks too...
Id rather have encounters and at wills like TR that perma mark instead and be given a new tab - heck even if it was a sprint ability.
The only thing that seems to make GF > Sent is into the fray for party damage buffs.
Im surprised im the only one posting here...
Ill have to do some testing in PVP, this damage increase seems to be right back to where we were mod 2 with GWFs being ultra tanky and having good damage, this is an effective 35% damage increase for most GWFs now... (since mark was temporary before, it was hardly something to rely on)
Maybe GFs need a feat that also increases damage 15% to marked targets as well, Maybe Tab mark needs to be an "AOE" mark just like Enforced Threat.... I dunno....
The big area they will differ is on demand flexibility. In addition to the larger AoE apply that GFs have (Enforced Threat) they can also pick up new adds instantaneously. GWFs just can't without expending a Threatening Rush charge. So given this Sentinels (who do rely much more on hitting targets to keep aggro because they can't taunt as frequently) needed a little more oomph on their mark.
As far as how tanking goes, in all of our testing GF tanks have been incredibly potent and effective. I haven't really seen any indication that they need to get tankier. And as far as the PVP concern, I am loathe to make any changes without some actual testing happening on it. Especially given that people have been concerned that GWFs have lost too much recently. Giving them 1) a powerful party utility in PVP that they can control with high accuracy and 2) a way to pump out a little more damage isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially since the squishiest of classes are getting buffs (and/or changes) to make them explode just a little less fast. It just means that power selection and priority will have to grow and adjust.
It also has the added benefit of making Mark a meaningful mechanic to both kinds of Fighters, which is great in my book.
I like the idea that you are bringing GWF's back into the mix. But this seems like a quick fix because as we know every GWF besides a few would have rerolled and quit, and people were of course saying you guys did this nerf so they would buy stuff for the new class, I get it, you need money.
But why did you buff the Sent damage? I get it, we rolled Destroyers mod 3 to one rotation people, and to counter the perma's with roar which got fixed, and to TRY and counter the HR's that are still MEGA OP. (pvp mindset). Sents have always been hard to kill, they are super tanky. And we finally had a separation b/w tanky sent, and not tanky destroyer that was a BIG gap. So why not buff the destroyers DPS? Then GWF's would have to choose, Tanky sent, or Destroyer?
I get that Sent's damage needed a boost, so I think the mark is cool, but that is a GF ability? So now GWF's get Mark, Sprint (CC immune), and Unstoppable? I mean I'm all for them being better, but it seems like some copy and pasted code rather than drawing a line b/w the classes.
I also don't understand why it is in the sent tree? Now even less Destroyers will be running around when we finaaaaaly got some out of PVE and into PVP. It just doesn't make sense to me is all. Why nerf them to oblivion, then bring them right back to mod 2? I just think the Destroyers needed the DPS boost to give them that "My DPS is so good that I don't necessarily need to be a sent" vs the Sent's saying "I want to be tanky, and be able to stay on a node"
Regardless I am glad the GWF's got a buff so mine won't be perma shelved, but I just don't understand why it's in the sent tree, and why they have a GF ability that is now 10x better than the GF's ability lol?
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
Mark: No longer removed from a Great Weapon Fighter when he is struck by his foe. It will always last its full duration.
Mark: Now properly provides 20% increased damage on the target for the Great Weapon Fighter. Still provides 8% for allies.
Mark: Now properly provides Combat Advantage against marked targets. This affects the Great Weapon Fighter and his allies.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Will you keep Powerful Challenge as T2 feat in the Sentinel tree? Meaning that Destroyers will be able to get 35% more dmg +CA, if so well... awesome! I would like to test this asap.
If you are willing to increase the damage of the sentinel, and intends to keep the destroyer "glass cannon" then give this damage buff on the base damage to be democratic with iv / sm.
sm, the original paragon, is not strong.
for pve perspective, I do not intend to become an "defender" to meet the demand of the ranger / sw. is not fair.
edit: now i see. is not the feet, is a general mark... why do this with sm?
My concern here would be Destro GWF's potentially pulling aggro whenever they apply a mark? Or is this a non sequitur - ie, the threat function is only applied to TR when capstoned Sentinel?
Im not sure what "demand flexibility" means, unless your taking about GFs can on demand mark, while GWFs have to use an ability.
Aoe Mark on GFs would be nice, if it didnt fall off if you are attacked. Speaking from experience in recent HEs, I use Enforced Threat plenty of times, and if I use it close enough to targets, it almost auto falls off even if I am trying to block. Dont get me wrong in all this, currently mod 3 GWF is my main, but this seems a little overboard in the wrong directions...
As far as PVP ins concerned, there are alot of things that are bypassing DR - so actually my experience of not being tanky enough on BOTH GWF and GF is surrounding those powers (CW+HR) the CW capstone is getting a nerf, but again, still bypasses DR - which IMO is bad. HRs have piercing blades (dont know much about how that works). Thats a different issue though.
OVerall, while this may be a QoL improvement for GWFs my concerns are here:
1) Destroyers now deal more damage (not needed TBH) and can also access the Sent feat with 10 points for (15% more dmg to marked targets) This is compounding the issue now that mark is not removed. Maybe if this feat was moved to 15 points (T3) into the Sent tree, this would be more fair and only help Sents. Since this 20% dmg boost is a dmg boost to Destroyers as well already - now itll be 35%.
2) GWFs mark - not being removed when taking damage, is now actually superior (from my take as a GF/GWF player) to GFs. GFs only have 1 perma on demand mark, while GWFs stays just like tab, and TR is an AOE mark. IBS is very common and also marks.
3) It just seems, to be brutally honest, quite sloppy to me to give the GF a "mark" ability but then give that SAME ability to GWFs. Seems like to again being 100% honest here Chris, that ALL GF mark abilities should be "perma" like this (for GWF), and GFs should be given a new Tab ability... I know you dont want to re-do the mechanics, but I just dont see the "magic" behind GFs being able to mark on command - it even requires animation time which frankly sucks too...
Id rather have encounters and at wills like TR that perma mark instead and be given a new tab - heck even if it was a sprint ability.
The only thing that seems to make GF > Sent is into the fray for party damage buffs.
Im surprised im the only one posting here...
Ill have to do some testing in PVP, this damage increase seems to be right back to where we were mod 2 with GWFs being ultra tanky and having good damage, this is an effective 35% damage increase for most GWFs now... (since mark was temporary before, it was hardly something to rely on)
Maybe GFs need a feat that also increases damage 15% to marked targets as well, Maybe Tab mark needs to be an "AOE" mark just like Enforced Threat.... I dunno....
Agreed. Why do all the changes and then add this which creates the problem all over again. You got to separate great tankiness from great damage or you are gonna keep making GWF re-spec every mod.
Honestly Crush, If you WANT to roll with mark changes....
Reverse this change, put mark BACK at 8% - you can even keep the "perma mark" thing if you want but this should ALSO be done for GFs... (DPS boost for all).
Its seems this is a fix for Sent GWFs ability to tank and deal damage. Swap Powerful Challenge with Intimidation.
Then you can roll out this:
Powerful Challenge: Increases effectiveness of mark to 20%. Mark also applies combat advantage. This would NOT include the 15% dmg bonus anymore, but now that mark is "perma" its MUCH MUCH stronger. Now it also adds CA damage - this will improve the QoL for Sents quite a bit.
Now this basically makes Sent GWFs have the same mark as GFs(tab), but it costs them 5 feat points in the SENT tree - far away from Destroyers. BTW, if you make GWF mark "perma" GFs should ALSO get this perma mark, and THEN you should consider HALVING its duration to 10 seconds. 20 seconds is just silly TBH... More for PVP purposes. Id even say 5-6 seconds is fair for PVP... But 10 is OK as well.
Im ALL for GWF buffs - especially after the MASSIVE nerfs. I just dont get why MARK is the avenue you want to pursue. Of all the options.
I mean its like giving CWs stealth as a side-effect to their powers..... I get BOTH fighters have mark, but why would GWF's Threat Rush mark be perma, when GFs isnt? Just makes no sense.
TBH, to save time/headache later, you should just swap GFs tab with something else, and make it the same for both GWF/GF in how mark operates.... Otherwise itll never work.
Now that Knights Valor and Into the Fray have been beefed up, those would be two VERY attractive options for "tab".
Shoot man, id rather take a "spell mastery" slot like CWs have and beef up mark via encounters/at wills like GWFs have....
EDIT: SwordMasters need to have a "mark" ability as well now... Not just IV - seeing as mark is going to be a MASSIVE DPS booster...
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Sprint
I feel that the 40% reduction in Stamina depletion was a bit much and that my GWF can now sprint far too long in a way that makes it feel weird that I often will prefer to Sprint rather than use my 110% speed mount, especially when Bravery is slotted.
A 25-30% reduction in Stamina depletion would be more adequate and still provide sufficient mobility, besides allowing me to continue making good use of the IWD boon that grants Power for missing Stamina. Improved Reaction / Battle Trample / Reinforced Surge
I still feel when testing various builds that it is extremely strange for Destroyers to have Improved Reaction, which technically is a GF protector feat. It would be better to swap it with Battle Trample, or alternatively move Reinforced Surge to Destroyer, Battle Trample to Instigator and Improved Reaction to Sentinel.
So can swordmaster get marking ability via weapon master strike?
The mark buff ill be only usefull when u go iron vang so we re back to the point where iv ill be superrior to swordmaster again.
My concern here would be Destro GWF's potentially pulling aggro whenever they apply a mark? Or is this a non sequitur - ie, the threat function is only applied to TR when capstoned Sentinel?
If you Mark someone you *WILL* pull aggro. So a Destroyer using Mark is going to take a substantial personal risk to do so.
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If you Mark someone you *WILL* pull aggro. So a Destroyer using Mark is going to take a substantial personal risk to do so.
make sense, the "buff" is a mechanical trap.
tsc...
ok, I just want to understand it.
the marked - ibs execution - will be a way to recreate, to destroyer, the aggro problem of the ranger (and the necessity of a defender)... on the other hand, destroyer, dps MELEE,need 20 stacks unstoppable + 3 stacks of 3 seconds to get your damage comparable to the ranger (inferior now).
and this is balanced?
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited July 2014
Bonus damage PLUS CA PLUS perma mark!? That's 30%+ bonus damage for a destroyer.
- bring prone back to takedown. Remove CC immunity on sprint give it 100% CC resistance (basically would REDUCE a control power used in sprint at reduced damage as well). You can keep this mark damage stuff. Roar SHOULD "daze" for 1 second now IMO. Reduce the % chance to gain a destroyer stack to 10% (down from 25%). Move Powerful Challenge to T3 in the Sent Tree. NOW you have balance....
Overall Effect: GWFs LOSE CC immunity to sprint but have SLIGHTLY more "melee control options" - Roar still decent with a daze effect, FLS stuns, Takedown prones: are all options. Mark is an increase in damage (8% to 20% now), Destoryer (T4 feat) reduction is a decrease in PVP damage - wont effect PVE much. Powerful challenge wont be available to Destroyer (being a T3 Sent ability).
If you Mark someone you *WILL* pull aggro. So a Destroyer using Mark is going to take a substantial personal risk to do so.
So, basically using IBS as a glass cannon destroyer = death if you aren't geared enough and/or don't have your Avalanche of Steel daily immediately afterwards?
Okay. Just went on the preview shard to test out my GWF. First path to test: destro. I feel like my damage is only half of my current Mod 3 destro. And when I rolled a sentinel, I felt like I was whipping the NPCs with a wet noodle while STILL losing more HP than my Mod 3 destroyer.
Also, was the healing nerf from activating Unstoppable really necessary? 5% HP in PvE is barely anything. 2.5% HP in PvP IS literally nothing.
In short, I kinda feel like I'm being forced to throw away my GWF.
Okay. Just went on the preview shard to test out my GWF. First path to test: destro. I feel like my damage is only half of my current Mod 3 destro. And when I rolled a sentinel, I felt like I was whipping the NPCs with a wet noodle while STILL losing more HP than my Mod 3 destroyer.
Also, was the healing nerf from activating Unstoppable really necessary? 5% HP in PvE is barely anything. 2.5% HP in PvP IS literally nothing.
In short, I kinda feel like I'm being forced to throw away my GWF.
Couldn't have a better sum-up. Mod4 Senti has only more survivability than ... the mod4 Destr. Mod4 Destr delivers only more damage then... a mod4 Senti. both are unplayable.
Give back take down to TakeDown.
Give back AP refill, interrupt, damage to Roar
Give back damage to Slam
Give back damage to TakeDown
Give back DR to Unstoppable
Give back its original duration to Unstoppable
Improve base damage of 2H weapons
Design a proper gwf paragon for gwf class
Give back Iron Vanguard to GF class
Make Shift a one-key hit like the Shift of the other classes
We have been looking at Tanking QoL for GWFs and wanted to improve that (and by proxy improve the damage Sentinels deal both solo and in a party). Given that we are making the following changes.
Mark: No longer removed from a Great Weapon Fighter when he is struck by his foe. It will always last its full duration.
Mark: Now properly provides 20% increased damage on the target for the Great Weapon Fighter. Still provides 8% for allies.
Mark: Now properly provides Combat Advantage against marked targets. This affects the Great Weapon Fighter and his allies.
Coupled with the improved taunting that Mark now provides (by putting you at the top of the threat list and the other changes Guardians got) Sentinel Tanking should feel much more consistent and reliable, both from the bonus threat and bonus damage you can now dish out.
These changes will NOT be making it to PTS this week, but hopefully will be in after that.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Let me understand one thing. There are technically 2 types of GWF: DPS and Tank. To solve the current issue,what is Destroyer (DPS) GWFs are way better tanks then GFs, you made some (really good) changes for both GF and GWF. Now, you make a change in order to help the Sentinel (Tank) GWFs to be able to fulfill the tank role. It would be nice, BUT (note that, many things were already mentiond in the previous posts):
1. this change also applies to DPS GWFs -> Why? Dont you wanna help Sentinels to be able to be more tanky (keep aggro), and only Sentinels?
2. this change will make the GF's mark a "lesser mark" compared to GWFs: "AoE (non-TAB) mark -> no guard -> mark removed" compared to "AoE mark -> 20 sec timer" -> Why and how is it in-par w/ GF (non-tab) AoE mark?
3. as was mentioned, Sent T2 feat gives a 15% boost to damage, and it is accessible to DPS GWFs, too -> Why to boost them again w/ perm mark?
Just some ideas how to "solve" the aboves:
1. Add this to the Sentinel capstone. This will then help only Sentinels (tank) GWFs. But see 2, too.
2. Change it to "Mark will no longer be removed during Unstoppable". I do think it is way more like GF mark. There are 2 powers to use to (AoE) mark targets: TR (3 charges) and DS (IBS is situational). Those 2 powers (and point 1.) should be enough for a Sent GWF to keep up aggro and mark buff/debuff almost as "easy" and as long as GF can. Tank GWFs gain determination quite fast due to getting damage. Just a side effect: in a party w/ GF and Sent GWF the GWF can act as second tank if needed but can also be a pure DPS (hance need skill and coordination:) ), while DPS GWF in a party w/ GF can keep focusing only on DPS w/o the fear to steal and keep aggro off the GF.
3. This is solved by 1-2. The feat can (and should) remain as T2 feat. It is a great feat for DPS GWFs to co-op w/ GF (GF marks, GWF DPS boosted).
PS: Thanks for the great and hard work on the changes. Keep it up!
Tried several builds as Sentinel and Destroyer against all classes. I can say by all means that Destro will continue to be best for pvp, but the real nerf comes for Threatning Rush. I'm totally agree to decrese it's power but now with only 3 charges it's "really impossible" to get a CW or HR (i'm talking about skilled pvp players not 8k gs whiners). Rush was the only way to get our ranged enemies; do you think is op cause it's dmg? Nerf the dmg more then, but 3 charges mean that the skill is usless. So tried as Swordmaster too...no words for SM in pvp, avoid it like black death....Now the point is, everybody complain about GWF dps, 20k IBS bla bla bla, so nerf the dmg but dont change the Rush. I'm totally agree on Roar fix (always preferred Frontline Surge), but really...no way for a gwf to reach ranged class with only 3 rush charges. Lower rush power to 100 if u want but let the skill works as previous mod.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited July 2014
Feedback:
I know devs have limited time, and devs dont have time to work more on balancing pvp .
But i suggest smal change for GWF make IBS 20% faster to cast and make stuns on FLS/TD/flouris just 0.5 sec longer cuz tenacity makes it absolutly not usefull (we cant take any advantage from stun "we cant land a single IBS") i personaly think this is not soo much work. And can make the class bit more viable in pvp .
Stunts make zero difference in pvp they dont disable the targeted oponent defense .
Or just give our take down prone back.
And GWF will have fine place in pvp almost same as GF and TR soo they will be not soo owerpowered .
PLS dont make GWF another usless tool like DC.
Comments
In pvp:
- roar must danze
- takedown stun and daze and faster animation
- flourish much faster animation
- ibs faster animation.
Gwf must be abile to and their hits and with current changes alone Andy player will easily dodge anything coming from a gwf.
Mark FX and damage bonus effect disappears after the normal duration, however Mark debuff in buffs list remains on target until it is struck again
Threatening Rush
If Threatening Rush is terminated early by using an Encounter or Daily Power (but not via Sprint), the character will have "teleported" towards the target, but not consume a charge of Threatening Rush, allowing players to ignore the 3 charge limit effectively
Animation Cancelling
Indomitable Strength when cancelled via Sprint will continue to deal the 2nd hit damage while allowing the player to concurrently use other powers
Battle Fury, Come and Get It!, Daring Shout, Frontline Surge animations can be cancelled early with Sprint without losing the power's effect, but allowing the player to act significantly earlier compared to waiting for the power to end normally
Wicked Strike
Wicked Strike can be animation cancelled using Sprint immediately after initiating the attack followed by resuming the Attack to result in ~30% faster attack speed
Feedback:
I've done days of testing over the last week or two. The below are my observations, based on Trade Of Blade dummy testing, testing in "old world" content including Mod 3 content, and also the newer Mod 4 content. These observations are based on what I have experience in a near 1:1 gear transfer from Live. While I don't have the "best" gear, I'm not in 60 greens, either. I have an AoW set, Imposing Scrapper, Purified Black Ice, and Corrupted Black Ice, using the Corrupt and Purified Weapons, mostly with Rank 8's, a few rank 7's, and a few Rank 9's that I switch around between sets. I use a Greater Plaguefire on my weapon. While I know there is "better" gear, there is also worse gear, and this, IMHO, represents a potential median to high end and entry players. I have played since Beta, and have played primarily DPS/Tank classes in MMO's prior to this. I don't PVP much, so my experiences are almost solely around PVE. I primarily play IV based Destroyer or Sentinel.
Tanking:
The Good:
I like the "feel" of the new tanking. There is a noticeable difference in survivability, but nothing I would consider "game breaking". While I can't "stand and facetank" utterly, I can take a few more direct hits, and survive it. I notice a substantial reduction in DPS - 35-38% reduction vis a vis DPS build and gear - for example, in Purified/Imposing, I deal approximately 6K DPS versus 9K'ish in Corrupt/10K in AoW. Overall, I consider this a Good Thing. Tank better, hits for less. This is logical (with caveats below).
I like the increased mobility. As a scale mail clad light/mobility tank, I like the ability to sprint in/away from the mob and the ugly red stuff. This noticeably helps in encounter survivability and is noteably improved from Live. I normally can hold aggro - in most cases. On to the "not so good".
The Bad:
My DPS suffers *dramatically* as a result of the need for mobility. If the majority of our threat comes from our attacks and our ability to "move in and out", I think the penalties are perhaps a bit high, especially on longer and/or boss fights. As a result, a boss or encounter with many heavy attacks or mechanics that require me to get the heck out or die, I suffer excessively (my DPS is less than half of my ToB testing parses). For example, tanking on Vartilingorix, my DPS did not break 3k over a 14 minute fight. And in times when I was really having to dodge a lot, I sometimes would lose aggro to the ranged players.
Additionally, due to the long cooldown on TR charges, I was constantly out of charges. My only recourse was to chug Stamina potions to be able to sprint back to the mob.
Recommendation:
Reduce the cooldown on TR, increase the charges, or remove the charges altogether. Provide a temporary threat buff for (x) time after a charge. After all, it is called "Threatening" Rush. If charges are removed, in the interests of those who wish balancing in PVP, cause TR to retain the current mechanics while PVP flagged. Alternately, (for PVE), the Sentinel capstone could remove charges if the current mechanic is retained, and not for PVP - and provide a threat buff of X seconds. This is my preferred concept.
Also, I don't know of anyone who uses Reaping Strike. If it is going to be included in the feat for increased threat generation, rework it to make it feasible. Remove the "charge up", and either make it a slower attack with increased defense/deflection and increase the base damage, or substitute Wicked Strike. Or WMS. Dealers choice.
Additionally, if Marks are a source of threat, and I'm tanking, it seems counterintuitive to have the mark removed when I am immediately attacked. Perhaps the Sentinel capstone could make marks last for "x seconds after being attacked"?
Damage Dealing:
The Good:
Overall, the damage output is OK in Destroyer. I may not top the leaderboard in an encounter, but I'm up there. With better gear, I would probably do better, but not everyone is in top tier gear with full Rank 10's and Fallen Dragon weapons. Balancing the class against the top tier does, IMHO, penalize the median portion and bottom of the bell curve. Uberplayers are going to hit like trucks, no matter what - but if we normalize against that subset of the class base, it places an unfair burden on the rest of the player base of that class.
My same input applies as above. I like the enhanced mobility. It allows me to engage mobs and get in and out of the red, avoid uber attacks from the boss. Changes to the different abilities have altered the way I play the class, but haven't necessarily "broken" it - although I am not a PVP player, so my coments should be taken in context of PVE ONLY. Overall though, this feels like a good place for a lightly armored mobility striker.
The Bad:
Same as above for tanking. With the reduction in Unstoppable (which I won't argue against, no need in applying a mailed boot to a deceased equine), I am required to disconnect from the target at a much higher rate than ever before. DPS takes a drastic downturn, same as listed above. While I am theoretically able to do slightly more DPS than I did before, it is more than negated by the amount of time I now spend running about avoiding damage. Also, I find I am constantly out of charges in TR.
Recommendation:
Same as above, with flavor for Destroyer. Reduce the cooldown on TR, increase the charges, or remove the charges altogether. Provide a temporary damage buff for (x) time after a charge. After all, it is called "Threatening" Rush, meaning I'm coming in with my sword overhead for a powerful blow or two, right? If charges are removed, in the interests of those who wish balancing in PVP, cause TR to retain the current mechanics while PVP flagged. Alternately, (for PVE), the Destroyer capstone could remove charges if the current mechanic is retained, and not for PVP - and provide a damage buff of X seconds. This is my preferred concept.
Mark: No longer removed from a Great Weapon Fighter when he is struck by his foe. It will always last its full duration.
Mark: Now properly provides 20% increased damage on the target for the Great Weapon Fighter. Still provides 8% for allies.
Mark: Now properly provides Combat Advantage against marked targets. This affects the Great Weapon Fighter and his allies.
Coupled with the improved taunting that Mark now provides (by putting you at the top of the threat list and the other changes Guardians got) Sentinel Tanking should feel much more consistent and reliable, both from the bonus threat and bonus damage you can now dish out.
These changes will NOT be making it to PTS this week, but hopefully will be in after that.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
So GWFs can mark via TWO things currently.
1) IBS
2) Threat Rush
Whats the "duration" you are thinking here. AND what is the real benefit of GFs "tab" ability then if GWFs get the exact same feature? Just that its an "on demand" mark? Im a little lost to these changes.
I do like temp mark lasting a "fixed" about of time. Maybe like 4-5 seconds? But I am lost on this one....
You forgot Daring Shout. And all Marks last 20 seconds. Guardians will still have their Marks removed if they take unblocked damage. This means the major differentiation between the two tanks is how they handle incoming damage.
Great Weapon Fighters function much more like *reactive* tanks. They respond to situations after taking the damage by timing Unstoppable and using Sprint for positioning, alongside self healing and buffs.
Guardians will operate far more *proactively*. They have to read the situation and decide what the best course of action will be in the next few seconds. Do I lower my block to activate a power? Will I be ok with KV on right now? Am I in position to maintain my marks?
Guardians have an on command mark which moves them to the top of the threat list, while GWF will have to be much more active in using his weapon and damage to stay on the top of that list. Given that and his higher weapon damage, we wanted to remove some of the major frustration of "how can I manage mark so I get something out of it?" that was very present in GWF tanking. We also wanted them to have a stronger niche in lower target situations where they can push out much more damage than a tanking Guardian can. Making Mark substantially easier to manage opens up their power selection much more for doing so.
Thanks for the feedback, I guess what confuses me is whats the real benefit of a GF's tab then if GWFs can do the same thing (and actually better from the +15% dmg to market targets in sent tree).
Only the GFs tab is perma, making GWFs actually have better marking ability than GFs. GWFs Unstoppable (especially Sents) is FAR superior to GFs Shield (primarily because of the ability to still attack, and no diminished run speed) and GWFs still get sprint that gives CC immunity and 30% DR.
Maybe if the GF "tab" operated LIKE "Enforced Threat" in that it was an AOE mark/hard taunt it would be more compelling, but even then your issue would be GFs lack the tankiness that GWFs have to survive those encounters. Seems like the only real value GFs have > Sents would be into the fray or Knights Valor. But I gotta say, from a solo play situation, this is making GFs VERY sub par to GWFs.
Atleast with the initial "mark" thought GFs had something to make up for low weapon damage.
have you also thought about what this will do to destroyers damage as IV? With 10 points they can ALSO reach the Sent +15% dmg to marked targets as well so this is a pretty big damage boost to Destroyers as well...
With this change I am REALLY pleading with you that you re-address AC for GFs and give them a nice bonus to be more "on par" with GWFs. In the range of 3 AC = 2% DR up from 2AC for 1% DR... This would make PLATE wearing GFs > GWFs in tankiness....
EDIT: 20 seconds seems a little OP for PVP purposes BTW. Maybe this can get a PVE/PVP change to 5 seconds in PVP?
can u guys implement marking ability on Swordmaster paragon maybe on Weapon Master Strike atwill?
The big area they will differ is on demand flexibility. In addition to the larger AoE apply that GFs have (Enforced Threat) they can also pick up new adds instantaneously. GWFs just can't without expending a Threatening Rush charge. So given this Sentinels (who do rely much more on hitting targets to keep aggro because they can't taunt as frequently) needed a little more oomph on their mark.
As far as how tanking goes, in all of our testing GF tanks have been incredibly potent and effective. I haven't really seen any indication that they need to get tankier. And as far as the PVP concern, I am loathe to make any changes without some actual testing happening on it. Especially given that people have been concerned that GWFs have lost too much recently. Giving them 1) a powerful party utility in PVP that they can control with high accuracy and 2) a way to pump out a little more damage isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially since the squishiest of classes are getting buffs (and/or changes) to make them explode just a little less fast. It just means that power selection and priority will have to grow and adjust.
It also has the added benefit of making Mark a meaningful mechanic to both kinds of Fighters, which is great in my book.
Again thanks alot for the feedback.
Im not sure what "demand flexibility" means, unless your taking about GFs can on demand mark, while GWFs have to use an ability.
Aoe Mark on GFs would be nice, if it didnt fall off if you are attacked. Speaking from experience in recent HEs, I use Enforced Threat plenty of times, and if I use it close enough to targets, it almost auto falls off even if I am trying to block. Dont get me wrong in all this, currently mod 3 GWF is my main, but this seems a little overboard in the wrong directions...
As far as PVP ins concerned, there are alot of things that are bypassing DR - so actually my experience of not being tanky enough on BOTH GWF and GF is surrounding those powers (CW+HR) the CW capstone is getting a nerf, but again, still bypasses DR - which IMO is bad. HRs have piercing blades (dont know much about how that works). Thats a different issue though.
OVerall, while this may be a QoL improvement for GWFs my concerns are here:
1) Destroyers now deal more damage (not needed TBH) and can also access the Sent feat with 10 points for (15% more dmg to marked targets) This is compounding the issue now that mark is not removed. Maybe if this feat was moved to 15 points (T3) into the Sent tree, this would be more fair and only help Sents. Since this 20% dmg boost is a dmg boost to Destroyers as well already - now itll be 35%.
2) GWFs mark - not being removed when taking damage, is now actually superior (from my take as a GF/GWF player) to GFs. GFs only have 1 perma on demand mark, while GWFs stays just like tab, and TR is an AOE mark. IBS is very common and also marks.
3) It just seems, to be brutally honest, quite sloppy to me to give the GF a "mark" ability but then give that SAME ability to GWFs. Seems like to again being 100% honest here Chris, that ALL GF mark abilities should be "perma" like this (for GWF), and GFs should be given a new Tab ability... I know you dont want to re-do the mechanics, but I just dont see the "magic" behind GFs being able to mark on command - it even requires animation time which frankly sucks too...
Id rather have encounters and at wills like TR that perma mark instead and be given a new tab - heck even if it was a sprint ability.
The only thing that seems to make GF > Sent is into the fray for party damage buffs.
Im surprised im the only one posting here...
Ill have to do some testing in PVP, this damage increase seems to be right back to where we were mod 2 with GWFs being ultra tanky and having good damage, this is an effective 35% damage increase for most GWFs now... (since mark was temporary before, it was hardly something to rely on)
Maybe GFs need a feat that also increases damage 15% to marked targets as well, Maybe Tab mark needs to be an "AOE" mark just like Enforced Threat.... I dunno....
I like the idea that you are bringing GWF's back into the mix. But this seems like a quick fix because as we know every GWF besides a few would have rerolled and quit, and people were of course saying you guys did this nerf so they would buy stuff for the new class, I get it, you need money.
But why did you buff the Sent damage? I get it, we rolled Destroyers mod 3 to one rotation people, and to counter the perma's with roar which got fixed, and to TRY and counter the HR's that are still MEGA OP. (pvp mindset). Sents have always been hard to kill, they are super tanky. And we finally had a separation b/w tanky sent, and not tanky destroyer that was a BIG gap. So why not buff the destroyers DPS? Then GWF's would have to choose, Tanky sent, or Destroyer?
I get that Sent's damage needed a boost, so I think the mark is cool, but that is a GF ability? So now GWF's get Mark, Sprint (CC immune), and Unstoppable? I mean I'm all for them being better, but it seems like some copy and pasted code rather than drawing a line b/w the classes.
I also don't understand why it is in the sent tree? Now even less Destroyers will be running around when we finaaaaaly got some out of PVE and into PVP. It just doesn't make sense to me is all. Why nerf them to oblivion, then bring them right back to mod 2? I just think the Destroyers needed the DPS boost to give them that "My DPS is so good that I don't necessarily need to be a sent" vs the Sent's saying "I want to be tanky, and be able to stay on a node"
Regardless I am glad the GWF's got a buff so mine won't be perma shelved, but I just don't understand why it's in the sent tree, and why they have a GF ability that is now 10x better than the GF's ability lol?
Will you keep Powerful Challenge as T2 feat in the Sentinel tree? Meaning that Destroyers will be able to get 35% more dmg +CA, if so well... awesome! I would like to test this asap.
sm, the original paragon, is not strong.
for pve perspective, I do not intend to become an "defender" to meet the demand of the ranger / sw. is not fair.
edit: now i see. is not the feet, is a general mark... why do this with sm?
Agreed. Why do all the changes and then add this which creates the problem all over again. You got to separate great tankiness from great damage or you are gonna keep making GWF re-spec every mod.
Reverse this change, put mark BACK at 8% - you can even keep the "perma mark" thing if you want but this should ALSO be done for GFs... (DPS boost for all).
Its seems this is a fix for Sent GWFs ability to tank and deal damage. Swap Powerful Challenge with Intimidation.
Then you can roll out this:
Powerful Challenge: Increases effectiveness of mark to 20%. Mark also applies combat advantage. This would NOT include the 15% dmg bonus anymore, but now that mark is "perma" its MUCH MUCH stronger. Now it also adds CA damage - this will improve the QoL for Sents quite a bit.
Now this basically makes Sent GWFs have the same mark as GFs(tab), but it costs them 5 feat points in the SENT tree - far away from Destroyers. BTW, if you make GWF mark "perma" GFs should ALSO get this perma mark, and THEN you should consider HALVING its duration to 10 seconds. 20 seconds is just silly TBH... More for PVP purposes. Id even say 5-6 seconds is fair for PVP... But 10 is OK as well.
Im ALL for GWF buffs - especially after the MASSIVE nerfs. I just dont get why MARK is the avenue you want to pursue. Of all the options.
I mean its like giving CWs stealth as a side-effect to their powers..... I get BOTH fighters have mark, but why would GWF's Threat Rush mark be perma, when GFs isnt? Just makes no sense.
TBH, to save time/headache later, you should just swap GFs tab with something else, and make it the same for both GWF/GF in how mark operates.... Otherwise itll never work.
Now that Knights Valor and Into the Fray have been beefed up, those would be two VERY attractive options for "tab".
Shoot man, id rather take a "spell mastery" slot like CWs have and beef up mark via encounters/at wills like GWFs have....
EDIT: SwordMasters need to have a "mark" ability as well now... Not just IV - seeing as mark is going to be a MASSIVE DPS booster...
I feel that the 40% reduction in Stamina depletion was a bit much and that my GWF can now sprint far too long in a way that makes it feel weird that I often will prefer to Sprint rather than use my 110% speed mount, especially when Bravery is slotted.
A 25-30% reduction in Stamina depletion would be more adequate and still provide sufficient mobility, besides allowing me to continue making good use of the IWD boon that grants Power for missing Stamina.
Improved Reaction / Battle Trample / Reinforced Surge
I still feel when testing various builds that it is extremely strange for Destroyers to have Improved Reaction, which technically is a GF protector feat. It would be better to swap it with Battle Trample, or alternatively move Reinforced Surge to Destroyer, Battle Trample to Instigator and Improved Reaction to Sentinel.
The mark buff ill be only usefull when u go iron vang so we re back to the point where iv ill be superrior to swordmaster again.
If you Mark someone you *WILL* pull aggro. So a Destroyer using Mark is going to take a substantial personal risk to do so.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?692681-Official-Feedback-Thread-Great-Weapon-Fighter-Changes&p=8488891&viewfull=1#post8488891
make sense, the "buff" is a mechanical trap.
tsc...
ok, I just want to understand it.
the marked - ibs execution - will be a way to recreate, to destroyer, the aggro problem of the ranger (and the necessity of a defender)... on the other hand, destroyer, dps MELEE,need 20 stacks unstoppable + 3 stacks of 3 seconds to get your damage comparable to the ranger (inferior now).
and this is balanced?
Well, at least daring shout is now viable.
- bring prone back to takedown. Remove CC immunity on sprint give it 100% CC resistance (basically would REDUCE a control power used in sprint at reduced damage as well). You can keep this mark damage stuff. Roar SHOULD "daze" for 1 second now IMO. Reduce the % chance to gain a destroyer stack to 10% (down from 25%). Move Powerful Challenge to T3 in the Sent Tree. NOW you have balance....
Overall Effect: GWFs LOSE CC immunity to sprint but have SLIGHTLY more "melee control options" - Roar still decent with a daze effect, FLS stuns, Takedown prones: are all options. Mark is an increase in damage (8% to 20% now), Destoryer (T4 feat) reduction is a decrease in PVP damage - wont effect PVE much. Powerful challenge wont be available to Destroyer (being a T3 Sent ability).
So, basically using IBS as a glass cannon destroyer = death if you aren't geared enough and/or don't have your Avalanche of Steel daily immediately afterwards?
Also, was the healing nerf from activating Unstoppable really necessary? 5% HP in PvE is barely anything. 2.5% HP in PvP IS literally nothing.
In short, I kinda feel like I'm being forced to throw away my GWF.
Couldn't have a better sum-up. Mod4 Senti has only more survivability than ... the mod4 Destr. Mod4 Destr delivers only more damage then... a mod4 Senti. both are unplayable.
Give back take down to TakeDown.
Give back AP refill, interrupt, damage to Roar
Give back damage to Slam
Give back damage to TakeDown
Give back DR to Unstoppable
Give back its original duration to Unstoppable
Improve base damage of 2H weapons
Design a proper gwf paragon for gwf class
Give back Iron Vanguard to GF class
Make Shift a one-key hit like the Shift of the other classes
Let me understand one thing. There are technically 2 types of GWF: DPS and Tank. To solve the current issue,what is Destroyer (DPS) GWFs are way better tanks then GFs, you made some (really good) changes for both GF and GWF. Now, you make a change in order to help the Sentinel (Tank) GWFs to be able to fulfill the tank role. It would be nice, BUT (note that, many things were already mentiond in the previous posts):
1. this change also applies to DPS GWFs -> Why? Dont you wanna help Sentinels to be able to be more tanky (keep aggro), and only Sentinels?
2. this change will make the GF's mark a "lesser mark" compared to GWFs: "AoE (non-TAB) mark -> no guard -> mark removed" compared to "AoE mark -> 20 sec timer" -> Why and how is it in-par w/ GF (non-tab) AoE mark?
3. as was mentioned, Sent T2 feat gives a 15% boost to damage, and it is accessible to DPS GWFs, too -> Why to boost them again w/ perm mark?
Just some ideas how to "solve" the aboves:
1. Add this to the Sentinel capstone. This will then help only Sentinels (tank) GWFs. But see 2, too.
2. Change it to "Mark will no longer be removed during Unstoppable". I do think it is way more like GF mark. There are 2 powers to use to (AoE) mark targets: TR (3 charges) and DS (IBS is situational). Those 2 powers (and point 1.) should be enough for a Sent GWF to keep up aggro and mark buff/debuff almost as "easy" and as long as GF can. Tank GWFs gain determination quite fast due to getting damage. Just a side effect: in a party w/ GF and Sent GWF the GWF can act as second tank if needed but can also be a pure DPS (hance need skill and coordination:) ), while DPS GWF in a party w/ GF can keep focusing only on DPS w/o the fear to steal and keep aggro off the GF.
3. This is solved by 1-2. The feat can (and should) remain as T2 feat. It is a great feat for DPS GWFs to co-op w/ GF (GF marks, GWF DPS boosted).
PS: Thanks for the great and hard work on the changes. Keep it up!
I know devs have limited time, and devs dont have time to work more on balancing pvp .
But i suggest smal change for GWF make IBS 20% faster to cast and make stuns on FLS/TD/flouris just 0.5 sec longer cuz tenacity makes it absolutly not usefull (we cant take any advantage from stun "we cant land a single IBS") i personaly think this is not soo much work. And can make the class bit more viable in pvp .
Stunts make zero difference in pvp they dont disable the targeted oponent defense .
Or just give our take down prone back.
And GWF will have fine place in pvp almost same as GF and TR soo they will be not soo owerpowered .
PLS dont make GWF another usless tool like DC.