So, in other words, your whole argument is based around deliberately making your HR suboptimal for PvP? And you didn't really seem to realize how good the HR cooldown reductions were previously in this topic, when you were talking about your "recovery set" but neglecting to mention any of the cooldown feats or features. You do understand how absurdly uninformed you are coming across as being? Yet you insist that others must listen to your opinion and have "sympathy" for trench-digging scrubs, while you do not show any indication of listening to others, or, for that matter, much consideration of other people's opinions, given your predilection for strawman arguments.
Im not copy/pasting the opinions you people have caught yourselves in anymore.
1)I never said make them suboptimal for PvP. Those are YOUR words, not throwing them in anyone's mouth.
2)And Im sorry to burst your bubble, but there was no previous talk about the recovery sets/feats/class features/combos put in past posts. Once again, you acted before thinking.
3)You insist when others post opinions to just throw out things without reiterating what youre comparing them too. "I can say Thorn Ward is the most OP power ever, and CWs can not equal it with all their powers combined". There, did you see what I did there? I posted something without talking about any combos related to it, any precise needed timing for it, any feats/combos necessary. If I posted that, youre saying no one would disagree with that? Or question as to how dumb it would seem to say how powerful that ability is ALONE?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
in 1v1 no they are not
but i have yet to see bis premades without cw in their team so they are viable in pvp
of course they are viable in pvp, dosent mean that they not disadvantaged in some respects and i dont think anyone in this thread has actually asked for more then fixing what is actually broken with cw like Arp
im just completely shocked that you think that is a valid argument.... the only time Cool Downs actually matter is in COMBAT.... this is a PvP thread right? im beginning to question you're intelligence on this matter.
And im shocked that so many people don't get that this is a CW thread, yet I have to repeatedly explain HR abilities. Im starting to wonder the intelligence of people who are continuing on an inside discussion, when it should've been resolved with the simple "Oh, I mistook your post, YOU worded it wrong, I shouldn't have to speak again about it, cuz its done/been explained".... I am wondering about people here. You guys are the equivalent of the people who argue "you said this!", and it when it was later discovered to be a simple missing of context, you come back an hour later with "you said this!", causing me to copy/paste and re-explain something that's been said OVER 6 TIMES OR SO.
To reiterate, once again: I mistook the argument because he implied that Constricting Arrow, AND ONLY CONSTRICTING ARROW, was on equal terms with CWs entire cc rotation. It, by itself, is not. It, with a combo of feats/class features/other power utilization IS actually superior, but only if used in rotation.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
willie you are doing SO much talking without any intelligent reasoning or thought behind you're statements
Says the person whos still talking about a conversation I technically ended approximately 5 pages ago, when my niece(shes frickin' 8 people!) is sitting beside me asking: "why are they still talking to you, you explained it"?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
of course they are viable in pvp, dosent mean that they not disadvantaged in some respects and i dont think anyone in this thread has actually asked for more then fixing what is actually broken with cw like Arp
See? Im not against this. Things just got way out of hand here. I know their Armor Pen and cc got skewered with tenacity.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
ya ok i really dont think fighting over who makes sense is productive in any way or form thank you
Sorry it seems that way, nice to see you Alt, please don't think bad of me. Just have gotten spun around too much on this topic, when it was a simple context misunderstanding between me and velynna.
Ill run this one quick then if youre still here.
1)need to fix armor pen
2)need to fix cc
3)need to fix damage(related to armor pen)
That's all that needed to be said, but I guess I got trapped by a couple of attempted ragers here.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Your very first post in this thread says otherwise: You didn't want CWs to be good in both PvE and PvP. And you were arguing *against* boosting CWs to be the best in PvP, despite the fact that no one at that point had expressed any desires like that.
Here's the thing(nice try on trying to put words in my mouth btw). Boosting something to be the best in PvE and PvP is NOT the same as boosting a class to be at least competitive(nice try on YOUR lame attempt at misrepresentation of what I said ). I never wanted them to be the weakest class but, as the OP concluded "why is my CWs dr/regen/hp INFERIOR TO A TANKS'?!"
If you'd posted this in the first place instead of all the nonsense you've been posting, along with all the raging you've been doing, you would have come across as less unreasonable.
And if you posted anything constructive, instead of flaming the discussion with phrases like "such and such abilities are OP, let's whine about that", I never would've needed to retort to your nonsensical flaming statements. It's people like you, who want everyone else nerfed, instead of the more balancing reasoning of "bring the CW up, not everyone else down". You see, people like you want to boost things too high, and end up with imbalanced pvp(GWFs weren't always the top pvp class, people seem to forget that).
P.S. I'm no longer going to cut/paste quote you. You can't even read your past posts, to realize your own mistakes, let alone anyone else's, imperfect as mine or others' may be.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Thats seems like a definitely logical and reasonable next step for game balancing
How about this too?
An encounter that functions like HRs Thorn Ward: a decent sized DoT AoE, that shows the TR(and only for CW), allowing them to be targeted(as long as they're in the AoE). Maybe even give it some healing qualities to the CW.
Just a suggestion...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
That's not what the OP concluded. You're misrepresenting again. But that's par for the course for you.
"Concluded" actually was the wrong word, more like "summarized". Congratulations, you actually took a post I said, and while still insulting, you didn't flame, other than the insult not needed.
I'm actually surprised... You didn't try a flame, just a loose, insulting troll. Weird.
None of what you just posted has any basis in reality. It is true that you've been polluting this thread, though. It's a shame the boards don't have an ignore function.
It's funny, because I've argued with people who have experience, and have responded to my posts(after we got over misunderstood contexts, in part by YOUR raging and trolling), with both merit and constructive criticism. YOU have done nothing but throw snide remarks, and attempts to turn this thread into a flame war.
I think if YOU were muted, back when you started this troll/flame war, maybe I could've not misunderstood velynna's context in the first place.
Sorry folks, I fell for this guys' <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> hook, line, and sinker.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Here's the thing(nice try on trying to put words in my mouth btw). Boosting something to be the best in PvE and PvP is NOT the same as boosting a class to be at least competitive(nice try on YOUR lame attempt at misrepresentation of what I said ).
I just want CW to be as competitive as GWFs or TRs at high end PVP. I could care less about which method cryptic goes with as there are a couple of different routes.
If the only way for a CW to be competitive is to make be as tanks, then so be it. Gameplay balance over lore.
as the OP concluded "why is my CWs dr/regen/hp INFERIOR TO A TANKS'?!"
By the way, you are misrepresenting what a lot of the CW community wants. We want CW to be just as competitive as any other class at high end PVP. I honestly don't care if you buff CW's health or buff its damage, or nerf other classes, or buff its CC, or change the PVP format or whatever. Like I said, there are lots of ways to do this. Please do not draw up a straw man argument of "HERP DERP IM A CW AND I WANN BE A TANK IN PVP HEHEHE" when what the CW community wants in reality is class balance.
control wizards will be getting some changes after module 3. we don't know what those changes will be, but we hope that they'll be fair balance changes in relation to making ArP work and to the other classes. whether this is going to make some people re-learn the way they play control wizard... we just do not know yet. chances are, the devs might have some ideas but they don't have anything official to report yet.
^ this is the basis of why balance discussions are difficult to have. some people come off sounding like they have an agenda and others come off sounding like they're trying to preserve a family secret. but until there is an official announcement or the devs put these changes up for testing, no one really has any real inside information. everything you're arguing about in this thread may change. it was almost a year ago when GWFs were in the same spot GFs are in right now and TRs were the cream of the crop. there were elusive TAB bugs on the GWF that intermittently occurred (and the TR as well!) and it took a seemingly long while for them to track that down for a fix. and it isn't like that anymore.
so... there's really no reason to get into heated arguments about this stuff. we already know that things are slated for change.
I just want CW to be as competitive as GWFs or TRs at high end PVP. I could care less about which method cryptic goes with as there are a couple of different routes.
If the only way for a CW to be competitive is to make be as tanks, then so be it. Gameplay balance over lore.
And this is more reasonable than the Imbalancing whine act some of the people here have been wanting. Maybe, seeing as the GWF and GF can switch paths, maybe CW gain the healing/tankiness properties of DCs, while keeping a good bit of their cc, but not totally stealing their healing?
By the way that HERP DERP thing you're saying? Please read the OP, as his complaints of WHY CANT A MAGE IN CLOTH HAVE THE SAME DR/HP/REGEN AS TANKS IN MAIL ARMOR basically explained my initial foray into the thread.
Man, just when I think people got back on track, the people WHO CANT EVEN READ THE ORIGIN POST WHILE COMPLAINING THAT IM NOT READING COME ALONG...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Fixing CWs in PVP isnt really about "fixing CWs". The other classes are basically immune to our CC at least half the time (ranger), most of the time GWF TR and GF. We cannot reliably CC anyone. Our damage isnt the garbage it feels like, it's low because we cant deliver anything meaningful most of the time. TR can basically always strike as can a GWF.
I see a few ways to fix the CW.
1} Possibly increase the distance we Teleport , to allow us distance. Running is currently faster than our Teleport which is ridiculous.
2] GF block should deplete much faster than it does currently. Turtling till your cooldowns are back up shouldnt be an option.
3} Unstoppable shouldnt break our CC, I honestly think it shouldnt make them immune to our magical type CC. Our prones and knockbacks yes.
4} Spammable gap closers equate to melee being ranged.
5} non perma TRs can basically disable you and be immune when you arent disabled immune durations should be looked at. Perma.......just stupid.
Until all these issues are addressed the CW will be a mess in PVP. I promise one thing though Icewind Dale will be a very unpleasant experience for the CW. At least the DC can tank and run.
And this is more reasonable than the Imbalancing whine act some of the people here have been wanting. Maybe, seeing as the GWF and GF can switch paths, maybe CW gain the healing/tankiness properties of DCs, while keeping a good bit of their cc, but not totally stealing their healing?
I don't think cryptic is up on the idea of giving another class healing powers as of yet. This would pretty much make it even more BIS in PVE.
They could make CW's CC pass through tenacity, make the shard permanent once it is summoned.
If CWs are going to continue being fragile in PVP, might as well give them some defensive abilities
Until all these issues are addressed the CW will be a mess in PVP. I promise one thing though Icewind Dale will be a very unpleasant experience for the CW. At least the DC can tank and run.
How many players are on each team in Icewind dale pvp
Funny thing is, TRs have been the cream or near the top in PVP most of the times throughout neverwinter's history.
I guess part of it is that the class was intended for PVE 1v1 boss battles with lots of defensive abilities and it translated very very well to PVP.
Tenacity was supposed to solve a lot of these problems. They could simply add the code: for every 100 tenacity, reduce TR's damage to you by 3%.
Right now, tenacity is a blanket stat that affects all classes equally even though not all classes are equal in PVP. Hopefully, they will use the tenacity object and add some variables to it that can affect each class with different parameters.
Fixing CWs in PVP isnt really about "fixing CWs". The other classes are basically immune to our CC at least half the time (ranger), most of the time GWF TR and GF. We cannot reliably CC anyone. Our damage isnt the garbage it feels like, it's low because we cant deliver anything meaningful most of the time. TR can basically always strike as can a GWF.
I see a few ways to fix the CW.
1} Possibly increase the distance we Teleport , to allow us distance. Running is currently faster than our Teleport which is ridiculous.
2] GF block should deplete much faster than it does currently. Turtling till your cooldowns are back up shouldnt be an option.
3} Unstoppable shouldnt break our CC, I honestly think it shouldnt make them immune to our magical type CC. Our prones and knockbacks yes.
4} Spammable gap closers equate to melee being ranged.
5} non perma TRs can basically disable you and be immune when you arent disabled immune durations should be looked at. Perma.......just stupid.
Until all these issues are addressed the CW will be a mess in PVP. I promise one thing though Icewind Dale will be a very unpleasant experience for the CW. At least the DC can tank and run.
These are understandable. Not perfect solutions either(it is a toughie)
1)actually I do believe this is true. Make GWFs sprint slightly slower, maybe?
2)Also needs a reasonable medium. Once the meter's gone, GFs go down fast. They also move slow as heck while they're guarding.
3)what do you mean by "magical type cc"? The CWs stuns/freezes are better than their prones. How unstoppable is unstoppable if entangling force chokes and grasps you until you get out of it?
4)weakening gap closers too much also equates into melee never able to reach range.
5)I already suggested an encounter capable of giving CWs the ability to target stealthier TRs. They should have something with this kind of purpose.
Not disagreeing with these, just that you have to watch how these might give too much to the CW.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Funny thing is, TRs have been the cream or near the top in PVP most of the times throughout neverwinter's history.
I guess part of it is that the class was intended for PVE 1v1 boss battles with lots of defensive abilities and it translated very very well to PVP.
Tenacity was supposed to solve a lot of these problems. They could simply add the code: for every 100 tenacity, reduce TR's damage to you by 3%.
Right now, tenacity is a blanket stat that affects all classes equally even though not all classes are equal in PVP. Hopefully, they will use the tenacity object and add some variables to it that can affect each class with different parameters.
I was originally under the impression that CWs were supposed to actually get a Control Bonus to compensate for tenacity... This currently seems untrue.
Also, a lot of TRs complaining that their damage went in the crapper too. They say that's why they prefer perma: would you rather do low damage, but be much harder to kill(perma), than low damage, and still easy to kill(non perma)?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I was originally under the impression that CWs were supposed to actually get a Control Bonus to compensate for tenacity... This currently seems untrue.
Also, a lot of TRs complaining that their damage went in the crapper too. They say that's why they prefer perma: would you rather do low damage, but be much harder to kill(perma), than low damage, and still easy to kill(non perma)?
TRs have a skill called shocking execution that is a better version of the CW's ice knife burst damage.
TRs have a skill called shocking execution that is a better version of the CW's ice knife burst damage.
not a fair comparison since it was actually stronger pre-tenacity and just broke with tenacity. i still remember the age of 2-3 wizards spamming 1-shots from that daily 24/7......33k right from the start.
what broke it was the fact that it doesn't count armor pen on-top of the huge resist buff everyone got
This is an absurd statement. HRs don't *need* to follow up with additional cc, because CA is all they need to render a CW helpless to use their best spells. CWs by contrast need to chain a bunch of spells together to achieve the same effect.
The CC stuns briefly 3 times (2 times if you dodge it). Compared with the variety of stuns and prones a CW has it's benign.
This isn't untrue, it's just that HRs have better ranged cc than CWs when they're up against each other in a 1v1 scenario.
What? 3 prones, an undodgable root, and a few stuns. That's worse than 2-3 mini stuns on like a 20 second cooldown?
I do that every day, on each side of that match-up. He hits me with Icy Rays, I hit with Constricting Arrow or Disruptive Shot. Advantage: HR.
Or, he can just immediately hit you with entangling after icy rays, drop a shard on your head, prone you twice, dealing lots of damage before you can even get the animation for constricting arrow off.
Just dodge when you have constricting on you and save your spellcasting for when it's on cooldown for the HR.
not a fair comparison since it was actually stronger pre-tenacity and just broke with tenacity. i still remember the age of 2-3 wizards spamming 1-shots from that daily 24/7......33k right from the start.
what broke it was the fact that it doesn't count armor pen on-top of the huge resist buff everyone got
Yes, this^. The big thing I hear is that it's NOT supposed to work that way. That tenacity somehow broke it was something I have been hearing in the "complaints about TR" corner.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
What about giving CWs more slows and some types of speed buffs? The way I see it, CWs were designed to be glass cannons with control, not tanks. Boosting damage won't help, because with a glass cannon class with no CC resist, you can be sure that CW is never going to be allowed to attack. The only way boosting damage would help is if CWs can one shot people, and I don't think anyone thinks that's fair. If you like that idea, think back to the old days of TRs one shotting people with lashing blade.
So my solution, increase slow severity on stacks of cold. Give CWs a temporary speed boost as a side effect with some of their skills. Give CWs some utility encounters, not all damage ones. Double CC duration, but increase cooldowns slightly. I wouldn't mind having a CW able to perma CC, as most classes have a way out of CC, or can dodge. Give CWs an encounter that only breaks CCs with a short cooldown around 12 seconds (before recovery). Reduce damage of CWs by 33%.
This solution should work both in PVE and PVP. In PVP, CWs get more control and are better able to stay at range, while dealing less damage. In PVE, CWs are better able to handle mobs but have their damage severely reduced.
If you look at other classes who are leading in PVP, most of their encounters are used for utility, not damage. Giving a CW an encounter to break CC, but forcing them to give up an encounter slot for it. Of course, the specific amounts to change things by will probably be very different than I suggested, but the idea is the point of this post.
I'd like to mention that simple solutions mentioned in this thread like increasing tankiness or damage will not work. Increasing damage will wreck PVE even more, while doing little for PVP. Increasing tankiness will take away the idea of playing a wizard type class.
To those that say that tankiness is the only way to be viable in the current PVP meta, I'll point out that CWs have been defending their dominance of PVE by claiming they are expecially suited to deal with the current PVE meta, AoE. If you claim that AoEs aren't overpowered in PVE, it's just bad dungeon design, others can claim tanks aren't overpowered in PVP, it's just bad map design. Hopefully we'll get more dungeon and PVP settings where different strengths can shine.
One last thing, DCs should also be looked at, as I consider CWs a DCs natural predator, so a buff to a CW hurts DCs particularly hard.
not a fair comparison since it was actually stronger pre-tenacity and just broke with tenacity. i still remember the age of 2-3 wizards spamming 1-shots from that daily 24/7......33k right from the start.
what broke it was the fact that it doesn't count armor pen on-top of the huge resist buff everyone got
I am talking about the current system. Fix the current skills and balance (some of them are bugged, then fix the current bugs)
Who cares about the past? TRs had an OP lashing blade skill in the past too.
There, I named another OP skill in the past that has since changed. Am I playing the game right?
Fixing CWs in PVP isnt really about "fixing CWs". The other classes are basically immune to our CC at least half the time (ranger), most of the time GWF TR and GF. We cannot reliably CC anyone. Our damage isnt the garbage it feels like, it's low because we cant deliver anything meaningful most of the time. TR can basically always strike as can a GWF.
I see a few ways to fix the CW.
1} Possibly increase the distance we Teleport , to allow us distance. Running is currently faster than our Teleport which is ridiculous.
2] GF block should deplete much faster than it does currently. Turtling till your cooldowns are back up shouldnt be an option.
3} Unstoppable shouldnt break our CC, I honestly think it shouldnt make them immune to our magical type CC. Our prones and knockbacks yes.
4} Spammable gap closers equate to melee being ranged.
5} non perma TRs can basically disable you and be immune when you arent disabled immune durations should be looked at. Perma.......just stupid.
Until all these issues are addressed the CW will be a mess in PVP. I promise one thing though Icewind Dale will be a very unpleasant experience for the CW. At least the DC can tank and run.
Holy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, someone in this thread has a brain.
These issues really need to be addressed. Bumped this post for the truth and hopefully some devs are reading. Not gonna press my luck but bumping posts doesn't cost money so it won't hurt at least.
Comments
Im not copy/pasting the opinions you people have caught yourselves in anymore.
1)I never said make them suboptimal for PvP. Those are YOUR words, not throwing them in anyone's mouth.
2)And Im sorry to burst your bubble, but there was no previous talk about the recovery sets/feats/class features/combos put in past posts. Once again, you acted before thinking.
3)You insist when others post opinions to just throw out things without reiterating what youre comparing them too. "I can say Thorn Ward is the most OP power ever, and CWs can not equal it with all their powers combined". There, did you see what I did there? I posted something without talking about any combos related to it, any precise needed timing for it, any feats/combos necessary. If I posted that, youre saying no one would disagree with that? Or question as to how dumb it would seem to say how powerful that ability is ALONE?
of course they are viable in pvp, dosent mean that they not disadvantaged in some respects and i dont think anyone in this thread has actually asked for more then fixing what is actually broken with cw like Arp
And im shocked that so many people don't get that this is a CW thread, yet I have to repeatedly explain HR abilities. Im starting to wonder the intelligence of people who are continuing on an inside discussion, when it should've been resolved with the simple "Oh, I mistook your post, YOU worded it wrong, I shouldn't have to speak again about it, cuz its done/been explained".... I am wondering about people here. You guys are the equivalent of the people who argue "you said this!", and it when it was later discovered to be a simple missing of context, you come back an hour later with "you said this!", causing me to copy/paste and re-explain something that's been said OVER 6 TIMES OR SO.
To reiterate, once again: I mistook the argument because he implied that Constricting Arrow, AND ONLY CONSTRICTING ARROW, was on equal terms with CWs entire cc rotation. It, by itself, is not. It, with a combo of feats/class features/other power utilization IS actually superior, but only if used in rotation.
Says the person whos still talking about a conversation I technically ended approximately 5 pages ago, when my niece(shes frickin' 8 people!) is sitting beside me asking: "why are they still talking to you, you explained it"?
See? Im not against this. Things just got way out of hand here. I know their Armor Pen and cc got skewered with tenacity.
Sorry it seems that way, nice to see you Alt, please don't think bad of me. Just have gotten spun around too much on this topic, when it was a simple context misunderstanding between me and velynna.
Ill run this one quick then if youre still here.
1)need to fix armor pen
2)need to fix cc
3)need to fix damage(related to armor pen)
That's all that needed to be said, but I guess I got trapped by a couple of attempted ragers here.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Here's the thing(nice try on trying to put words in my mouth btw). Boosting something to be the best in PvE and PvP is NOT the same as boosting a class to be at least competitive(nice try on YOUR lame attempt at misrepresentation of what I said
And if you posted anything constructive, instead of flaming the discussion with phrases like "such and such abilities are OP, let's whine about that", I never would've needed to retort to your nonsensical flaming statements. It's people like you, who want everyone else nerfed, instead of the more balancing reasoning of "bring the CW up, not everyone else down". You see, people like you want to boost things too high, and end up with imbalanced pvp(GWFs weren't always the top pvp class, people seem to forget that).
P.S. I'm no longer going to cut/paste quote you. You can't even read your past posts, to realize your own mistakes, let alone anyone else's, imperfect as mine or others' may be.
How about this too?
An encounter that functions like HRs Thorn Ward: a decent sized DoT AoE, that shows the TR(and only for CW), allowing them to be targeted(as long as they're in the AoE). Maybe even give it some healing qualities to the CW.
Just a suggestion...
"Concluded" actually was the wrong word, more like "summarized". Congratulations, you actually took a post I said, and while still insulting, you didn't flame, other than the insult not needed.
I'm actually surprised... You didn't try a flame, just a loose, insulting troll. Weird.
It's funny, because I've argued with people who have experience, and have responded to my posts(after we got over misunderstood contexts, in part by YOUR raging and trolling), with both merit and constructive criticism. YOU have done nothing but throw snide remarks, and attempts to turn this thread into a flame war.
I think if YOU were muted, back when you started this troll/flame war, maybe I could've not misunderstood velynna's context in the first place.
Sorry folks, I fell for this guys' <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> hook, line, and sinker.
I just want CW to be as competitive as GWFs or TRs at high end PVP. I could care less about which method cryptic goes with as there are a couple of different routes.
If the only way for a CW to be competitive is to make be as tanks, then so be it. Gameplay balance over lore.
By the way, you are misrepresenting what a lot of the CW community wants. We want CW to be just as competitive as any other class at high end PVP. I honestly don't care if you buff CW's health or buff its damage, or nerf other classes, or buff its CC, or change the PVP format or whatever. Like I said, there are lots of ways to do this. Please do not draw up a straw man argument of "HERP DERP IM A CW AND I WANN BE A TANK IN PVP HEHEHE" when what the CW community wants in reality is class balance.
^ this is the basis of why balance discussions are difficult to have. some people come off sounding like they have an agenda and others come off sounding like they're trying to preserve a family secret. but until there is an official announcement or the devs put these changes up for testing, no one really has any real inside information. everything you're arguing about in this thread may change. it was almost a year ago when GWFs were in the same spot GFs are in right now and TRs were the cream of the crop. there were elusive TAB bugs on the GWF that intermittently occurred (and the TR as well!) and it took a seemingly long while for them to track that down for a fix. and it isn't like that anymore.
so... there's really no reason to get into heated arguments about this stuff. we already know that things are slated for change.
And this is more reasonable than the Imbalancing whine act some of the people here have been wanting. Maybe, seeing as the GWF and GF can switch paths, maybe CW gain the healing/tankiness properties of DCs, while keeping a good bit of their cc, but not totally stealing their healing?
By the way that HERP DERP thing you're saying? Please read the OP, as his complaints of WHY CANT A MAGE IN CLOTH HAVE THE SAME DR/HP/REGEN AS TANKS IN MAIL ARMOR basically explained my initial foray into the thread.
Man, just when I think people got back on track, the people WHO CANT EVEN READ THE ORIGIN POST WHILE COMPLAINING THAT IM NOT READING COME ALONG...
I see a few ways to fix the CW.
1} Possibly increase the distance we Teleport , to allow us distance. Running is currently faster than our Teleport which is ridiculous.
2] GF block should deplete much faster than it does currently. Turtling till your cooldowns are back up shouldnt be an option.
3} Unstoppable shouldnt break our CC, I honestly think it shouldnt make them immune to our magical type CC. Our prones and knockbacks yes.
4} Spammable gap closers equate to melee being ranged.
5} non perma TRs can basically disable you and be immune when you arent disabled immune durations should be looked at. Perma.......just stupid.
Until all these issues are addressed the CW will be a mess in PVP. I promise one thing though Icewind Dale will be a very unpleasant experience for the CW. At least the DC can tank and run.
I don't think cryptic is up on the idea of giving another class healing powers as of yet. This would pretty much make it even more BIS in PVE.
They could make CW's CC pass through tenacity, make the shard permanent once it is summoned.
If CWs are going to continue being fragile in PVP, might as well give them some defensive abilities
How many players are on each team in Icewind dale pvp
Funny thing is, TRs have been the cream or near the top in PVP most of the times throughout neverwinter's history.
I guess part of it is that the class was intended for PVE 1v1 boss battles with lots of defensive abilities and it translated very very well to PVP.
Tenacity was supposed to solve a lot of these problems. They could simply add the code: for every 100 tenacity, reduce TR's damage to you by 3%.
Right now, tenacity is a blanket stat that affects all classes equally even though not all classes are equal in PVP. Hopefully, they will use the tenacity object and add some variables to it that can affect each class with different parameters.
These are understandable. Not perfect solutions either(it is a toughie)
1)actually I do believe this is true. Make GWFs sprint slightly slower, maybe?
2)Also needs a reasonable medium. Once the meter's gone, GFs go down fast. They also move slow as heck while they're guarding.
3)what do you mean by "magical type cc"? The CWs stuns/freezes are better than their prones. How unstoppable is unstoppable if entangling force chokes and grasps you until you get out of it?
4)weakening gap closers too much also equates into melee never able to reach range.
5)I already suggested an encounter capable of giving CWs the ability to target stealthier TRs. They should have something with this kind of purpose.
Not disagreeing with these, just that you have to watch how these might give too much to the CW.
I was originally under the impression that CWs were supposed to actually get a Control Bonus to compensate for tenacity... This currently seems untrue.
Also, a lot of TRs complaining that their damage went in the crapper too. They say that's why they prefer perma: would you rather do low damage, but be much harder to kill(perma), than low damage, and still easy to kill(non perma)?
TRs have a skill called shocking execution that is a better version of the CW's ice knife burst damage.
not a fair comparison since it was actually stronger pre-tenacity and just broke with tenacity. i still remember the age of 2-3 wizards spamming 1-shots from that daily 24/7......33k right from the start.
what broke it was the fact that it doesn't count armor pen on-top of the huge resist buff everyone got
The CC stuns briefly 3 times (2 times if you dodge it). Compared with the variety of stuns and prones a CW has it's benign.
What? 3 prones, an undodgable root, and a few stuns. That's worse than 2-3 mini stuns on like a 20 second cooldown?
Or, he can just immediately hit you with entangling after icy rays, drop a shard on your head, prone you twice, dealing lots of damage before you can even get the animation for constricting arrow off.
Just dodge when you have constricting on you and save your spellcasting for when it's on cooldown for the HR.
Yes, this^. The big thing I hear is that it's NOT supposed to work that way. That tenacity somehow broke it was something I have been hearing in the "complaints about TR" corner.
So my solution, increase slow severity on stacks of cold. Give CWs a temporary speed boost as a side effect with some of their skills. Give CWs some utility encounters, not all damage ones. Double CC duration, but increase cooldowns slightly. I wouldn't mind having a CW able to perma CC, as most classes have a way out of CC, or can dodge. Give CWs an encounter that only breaks CCs with a short cooldown around 12 seconds (before recovery). Reduce damage of CWs by 33%.
This solution should work both in PVE and PVP. In PVP, CWs get more control and are better able to stay at range, while dealing less damage. In PVE, CWs are better able to handle mobs but have their damage severely reduced.
If you look at other classes who are leading in PVP, most of their encounters are used for utility, not damage. Giving a CW an encounter to break CC, but forcing them to give up an encounter slot for it. Of course, the specific amounts to change things by will probably be very different than I suggested, but the idea is the point of this post.
I'd like to mention that simple solutions mentioned in this thread like increasing tankiness or damage will not work. Increasing damage will wreck PVE even more, while doing little for PVP. Increasing tankiness will take away the idea of playing a wizard type class.
To those that say that tankiness is the only way to be viable in the current PVP meta, I'll point out that CWs have been defending their dominance of PVE by claiming they are expecially suited to deal with the current PVE meta, AoE. If you claim that AoEs aren't overpowered in PVE, it's just bad dungeon design, others can claim tanks aren't overpowered in PVP, it's just bad map design. Hopefully we'll get more dungeon and PVP settings where different strengths can shine.
One last thing, DCs should also be looked at, as I consider CWs a DCs natural predator, so a buff to a CW hurts DCs particularly hard.
I am talking about the current system. Fix the current skills and balance (some of them are bugged, then fix the current bugs)
Who cares about the past? TRs had an OP lashing blade skill in the past too.
There, I named another OP skill in the past that has since changed. Am I playing the game right?
Holy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, someone in this thread has a brain.
These issues really need to be addressed. Bumped this post for the truth and hopefully some devs are reading. Not gonna press my luck but bumping posts doesn't cost money so it won't hurt at least.