Clearly, HRs "down in the trenches" don't know about elitist stuff like cooldown-reducing feats and powers.
Obviously, only HRs "down in the trenches" can read and understand a "1 power working being inferior to a rotation" discussion.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
It really is possible. Methinks you don't know how to build/play HR.
You know what? not going to explain to someone who doesn't read.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Thing is, that's a ROTATION. Many things you have to do in an order to get similar results. The complaint was about that single power (CA) versus a CWs rotation.
How can it even make sense to discuss a power in isolation versus a class's rotation? It makes no sense to remove context when it's important.
And I think its clear from your constant raging that YOUR knowledge regarding what CWs/HRs/GWFs/DCs/GFs/TRs is based on the "I didn't do this myself, but listened to what others say" is pretty dang limited compared to someone whos used EVERY class in pvp.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
And I think its clear from your constant raging that YOUR knowledge regarding what CWs/HRs/GWFs/DCs/GFs/TRs is based on the "I didn't do this myself, but listened to what others say" is pretty dang limited compared to someone whos used EVERY class in pvp.
LOL. Velynna does have one of every class. So do I. So does Macjae.
Thing is, that's a ROTATION. Many things you have to do in an order to get similar results. The complaint was about that single power (CA) versus a CWs rotation.
So you think I'm gonna sit there, use CA and do what...nothing?
How can it even make sense to discuss a power in isolation versus a class's rotation? It makes no sense to remove context when it's important.
But that's how it was explained. I didn't remove it from context, I addressed the fact that he brought up that its more OP than CW rotation. Left alone, CA is inferior to a CW rotation, whereas HRs rotation may in fact be superior. I personally love using Stormstep action, hitting my Daily, and watching all my encounters either come off cooldown, or be pretty close to use again.
Once again, he stated "HRs don't *need* to follow up with additional cc, because CA is all they need to render a CW helpless to use their best spells. CWs by contrast need to chain a bunch of spells together to achieve the same effect."
Using the phrase "CA is all they need to render a CW helpless to use their best spells. CWs by contrast need to chain a bunch of spells together to achieve the same effect." Is in fact saying that its the same, BY ITSELF, as CWs using their rotation. Read please before bandwagon jumping.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
And I think its clear from your constant raging that YOUR knowledge regarding what CWs/HRs/GWFs/DCs/GFs/TRs is based on the "I didn't do this myself, but listened to what others say" is pretty dang limited compared to someone whos used EVERY class in pvp.
I have every class level 60, and two level 60 TRs and 2 level 60 DCs. I've played since the start of beta. I lead one of the most competitive PvP guilds in the game. I'm not raging, and my knowledge is based on my extensive in-game experience, frequent use of the PTR, and consistent testing of builds with others in my guild.
I don't know how many people it takes to tell you when you're wrong, but I'm guessing probably an infinite number.
LOL. Velynna does have one of every class. So do I. So does Macjae.
So you think I'm gonna sit there, use CA and do what...nothing?
So id expect something besides the whining here... plus, as I said, youre comparing 1 ability to the slew of CWs. If you correctly pronounced that you were taking all of your other abilities into context, this argument wouldn't have been needed in the first place.
"if you word something wrong, don't bark at the one addressing it as such. Correct the phrase, then we can all move along."
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So id expect something besides the whining here... plus, as I said, youre comparing 1 ability to the slew of CWs. If you correctly pronounced that you were taking all of your other abilities into context, this argument wouldn't have been needed in the first place.
"if you word something wrong, don't bark at the one addressing it as such. Correct the phrase, then we can all move along."
I don't even see where I'm wrong. I merely stated that I could, with the correct rotation/build, get my CA down to 5.6 seconds, which is entirely true.
I have every class level 60, and two level 60 TRs and 2 level 60 DCs. I've played since the start of beta. I lead one of the most competitive PvP guilds in the game. I'm not raging, and my knowledge is based on my extensive in-game experience, frequent use of the PTR, and consistent testing of builds with others in my guild.
I don't know how many people it takes to tell you when you're wrong, but I'm guessing probably an infinite number.
And I also have every class(except a new TR im making, I deleted a Burst damage TR I MADE IN BETA) leveled to 60, with 2 GWFs(one iron vanguard, other destroyer), 2 GFs(one for pve tanking/kiting, other conqueror pvp). Ive played since open beta. I created a guild with my girlfriend, have played both pvp, pve, and every event(still have caturday survivor stuff on my GWF).
I don't know how many people it takes YOU to sympathize with any and all classes, but Im probably guessing you've never been in the low end, randomness of pugging pvp, dd's, or any event.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I don't know how many people it takes YOU to sympathize with any and all classes, but Im probably guessing you've never been in the low end, randomness of pugging pvp, dd's, or any event.
Everyone had to start somewhere. So, yes. I definitely have. The difference between you and I is that I've experienced BOTH worlds and can comment on both.
I don't even see where I'm wrong. I merely stated that I could, with the correct rotation/build, get my CA down to 5.6 seconds, which is entirely true.
Ill phrase the original thing you said that started it, okay?
HRs don't *need* to follow up with additional cc, because CA is all they need to render a CW helpless to use their best spells. CWs by contrast need to chain a bunch of spells together to achieve the same effect.
You didn't say something along the lines of "I use CA, followed by my rotation of powers, class features, feats, and gear, to render a CW helpless to use their best spells".
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Everyone had to start somewhere. So, yes. I definitely have. The difference between you and I is that I've experienced BOTH worlds and can comment on both.
Then why are you trashing on pug pvp like it doesn't matter? That was the basics of what I asked, before you went "im pvp guild, high end pvp'er, nothing else matters" high horse. I never doubted that you had experience. I just doubt that you have pug experience when you use phrase such as "CWs are a liability in pvp" when I know that's not the case. Ive been on well coordinated teams that had wins, simply due to helping every class do what it has to, instead of "omg, I don't have a lot of kills, waaaah!".
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Sympathize? What the what? You'd need to explain a bit where *sympathy* enters this discussion. You like to call others whiners, then you use a word like "sympathy."
Im using the word sympathy, because she isn't using it, I don't know how to spell it out more for you. She has said, at many points, that pug pvp doesn't matter. That's apathy, not sympathy.
You may want to run a quote check on that, chief. You might be getting a bit confused. Or more.
You might want to read his posts, bra. I copy/pasted EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID. I think you need your reading glasses. Or worse.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Then why are you trashing on pug pvp like it doesn't matter? That was the basics of what I asked, before you went "im pvp guild, high end pvp'er, nothing else matters" high horse. I never doubted that you had experience. I just doubt that you have pug experience when you use phrase such as "CWs are a liability in pvp" when I know that's not the case. Ive been on well coordinated teams that had wins, simply due to helping every class do what it has to, instead of "omg, I don't have a lot of kills, waaaah!".
For the millionth time, I am NOT trashing on PUG PvP. However, basing class balance on PUG PvP is a HORRIBLE idea. I mention high-end PvP not because that should be the standard, but because that's the main situation in-game where things like gear, experience, skill, etc., are most equal. And because of that, it gives you the best idea of what is and is not imbalanced. I don't know how many more times I have to repeat this. If you disagree that class balance should be created using information about classes when they are matched on important dimensions like build, skill, and such, let me know. Because that's what it sounds like with your obsessive references to PUG PvP.
And again, I've been on teams with two CWs where we've stomped 5-GWF parties. But again, this doesn't tell you anything about balance. Because it's PUG PvP, in which all the important dimensions are rarely matched as well as in high-end PvP. Which is why basing your opinion on class balance when all you do is PUG PvP will NOT always give you the best information about class balances. That's all.
Here's the thing: you ever hear the phrase "respect is earned, not given"? I grew up on that motto.
1)SHES IN A PVP PREMADE GUILD. So initially, you can say, yes, she has experience. But how is that "experience" when you're playing WITH BIS PVP PLAYERS ON YOUR TEAM ALL THE TIME?
2)she's not down in the trenches with the soldiers(can't believe I have to say that... again. I'm not facepalming anymore. People just do not read).
3)You say she has the best CWs in the game? Okay, so why are BiS, high end pvp players whining. I've seen those CWs wreck low end GWFs/HRs pretty much all the time! High end PvP is almost completely different than normal, average pvp.
In summary, I respect the average lowly soldier who's always in the trenches, as opposed to elitist, on top of the world players who never had the opportunity to play through the muck, so stay on your high horse people, I just don't care.
velynna earned the respect of the PvP community many months ago. She's not always playing with BiS people, she pugs many times and carried many clueless pugs, such as yourself, to victory.
Yes the high end CWs wreck low end HRs or GWFs. They are supposed to, after almost a year of playing at highest level and with BiS gear.
BiS wrecking no BiS is not the issue. The issue is at the very top of PvP.
I'm done in this topic. I don't even play my CW any longer - like many other CWs. But since it was my second toon, I just vainly want it to be as viable as my GWF or TR, probably hopeless.
I said it before, the developers should gather up real PvPers that know what they doing for feedback purposes and stop listening to pugs. Most of the times they just give toxic feedback.
PvP players are getting tired of trying to help this game improve only to come to the forums and get trolled by pugs that have no idea what the hell are they talking about.
BiS maxed out characters should not be the basis around how a free-to-play MMO is balanced. I would be willing to bet that any changes they made to the CW that resulted in CWs becoming "balanced" in a BiS 5v5 Premade would also result in wizards absolutely dominating the rest of the game.
Balancing the CW in PvP will come down to expanding or changing the meta-game. They are plenty good at what they do, it just so happens that what they do is not as helpful for 5v5 Domination as what other classes can do.
Alternatively, they could add a new CW Paragon which completely rethinks how the CW is played.
In the meantime, please fix Shard and Armor Penetration.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
For the millionth time, I am NOT trashing on PUG PvP. However, basing class balance on PUG PvP is a HORRIBLE idea. I mention high-end PvP not because that should be the standard, but because that's the main situation in-game where things like gear, experience, skill, etc., are most equal. And because of that, it gives you the best idea of what is and is not imbalanced. I don't know how many more times I have to repeat this. If you disagree that class balance should be created using information about classes when they are matched on important dimensions like build, skill, and such, let me know. Because that's what it sounds like with your obsessive references to PUG PvP.
And again, I've been on teams with two CWs where we've stomped 5-GWF parties. But again, this doesn't tell you anything about balance. Because it's PUG PvP, in which all the important dimensions are rarely matched as well as in high-end PvP. Which is why basing your opinion on class balance when all you do is PUG PvP will NOT always give you the best information about class balances. That's all.
AND FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME, I am NOT trashing premade, high end pvp either. I may not like it(due to the generally elitist attitude there, which I see still stands), but im saying basing balance on that is ALSO a HORRIBLE IDEA.
Listen to this, if even for a second. They have an actual poll, respecting pug AND high end pvp players remarks, and fit pvp in that discussion. Doesn't need a bash or trash fest, but seriously, a bit of constructive opinions from all around, as opposed to the minority of pvp players, helps the whole situation.
I don't know how many more times I have to say this, but this game was made for PvE, with PvP as an afterthough. Anyone whos been here long enough should know this.
And also, for the millionth time, I never said that the classes aren't equal if equally geared. That's the main balance issue, I never disagreed with that. But, you never also pointed out anything towards the queue system, or how pug and premade groups get mismatched. I wanted to address this from the very beginning, but you(and others) went down the "high end pvp only" lane. I wanted to talk about everything, not get thrown off tangent because someone said "this doesn't matter, our minority of people who play with BiS gear with r10s, running with your also BiS teammates", its pretty hard to judge balance when your pugstomping 8k gs(which thankfully I have never been) players.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
BiS maxed out characters should not be the basis around how a free-to-play MMO is balanced. I would be willing to bet that any changes they made to the CW that resulted in CWs becoming "balanced" in a BiS 5v5 Premade would also result in wizards absolutely dominating the rest of the game.
No one has said this. It's about creating balance based on people with equal gear, experience, etc. Where is the equal gear, experience, and such most evident in game? Among BiS, experienced players. But the findings would still be the same if you looked at matches where everyone had average gear, skills, and experience.
To williep: as I've mentioned, I have and do solo queue plenty. I don't know how much more "in the trenches" I can get. (And I solo queue on arguably one of the most painful classes to solo queue on -the DC, who can only carry a team so hard). Again, the difference between you and I is that I do both high end PvP and PUG matches (on characters with and without gear), and can speak to both.
Sense. Make it. Please. Because I'm not really sure I follow here: Are we supposed to sympathize with the class that's at the bottom of the heap of usefulness in PvP, or the classes that stomp on it?
Im talking about her seemingly apathy towards pug pvp, not the classes. Read. please.
No, you copy/pasted what I posted. That's why I said you should run a quote check.
I know I misquoted, but you sounded like what was pasted wasn't said at all. That's why I reposted it. Thanks for finally being a little clear instead of vague "its not right, so ill insult" statements.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
velynna earned the respect of the PvP community many months ago. She's not always playing with BiS people, she pugs many times and carried many clueless pugs, such as yourself, to victory.
Yes the high end CWs wreck low end HRs or GWFs. They are supposed to, after almost a year of playing at highest level and with BiS gear.
BiS wrecking no BiS is not the issue. The issue is at the very top of PvP.
I'm done in this topic. I don't even play my CW any longer - like many other CWs. But since it was my second toon, I just vainly want it to be as viable as my GWF or TR, probably hopeless.
I said it before, the developers should gather up real PvPers that know what they doing for feedback purposes and stop listening to pugs. Most of the times they just give toxic feedback.
PvP players are getting tired of trying to help this game improve only to come to the forums and get trolled by pugs that have no idea what the hell are they talking about.
And I have played with many a different group, composed of different players, even carrying bad gwfs to victory or defeat.
If youre just going to bandwagon jump, and ignore others' experience, im glad youre gone. Unlike you, ill still play my CW, as it is my second oldest character, and deserves my attention through any changes they get(good or bad).
As has been said in the past, the developers listen to the players' generally, because they care about the community as a WHOLE. They need to stop listening to people with nothing but "waaaah my class is weak!" complaints(not you velynna, I now know youre not as elitist as others I run into. Just didn't sound right at first, sorry for the misunderstanding on my part ), because those players with one sided whining have ruined how the gameplay is now(remember when CWs weren't so bad off?, and the majority of TRs weren't forced to go permastealth, because their insane burst damage was great in pvp? I do ). Instead, the idiots are the ones going off on "my class sucks, nerf everything else" tangents, or "omg this works against me? its sooo OP, nerf it to the ground" once again, remember the past folks.
PvP players are getting tired of their classes getting "nerfed" because someone who barely touches any other class whines that an ability/setup/build that they don't even try to work around seems OP to them, and must be nerfed so its no longer viable.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
No one has said this. It's about creating balance based on people with equal gear, experience, etc. Where is the equal gear, experience, and such most evident in game? Among BiS, experienced players. But the findings would still be the same if you looked at matches where everyone had average gear, skills, and experience.
To williep: as I've mentioned, I have and do solo queue plenty. I don't know how much more "in the trenches" I can get. (And I solo queue on arguably one of the most painful classes to solo queue on -the DC, who can only carry a team so hard). Again, the difference between you and I is that I do both high end PvP and PUG matches (on characters with and without gear), and can speak to both.
Sorry about coming on wrong to you then. Ive just been so tired of arguing with the same people day in/ day out that don't have your knowledge. I argued with a guy who ONLY plays CWs, and he calls them "that weak, useless thing" in both PvE and PvP, yet when he gets thoroughly debunked by myself and others, he throws it to high end pvp'ers(some of which also don't have the other class experience) to try to troll me, where it gives me a bad impression of high end pvp'ers, as elitist types... Sorry
By the way, my girlfriend is a 16k PvP DC, who basically only needs enchants to improve, and Legendary artifacts... I do sympathize that DCs got screwed, and I rarely(if at all) pvp on my DC.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
No one has said this. It's about creating balance based on people with equal gear, experience, etc. Where is the equal gear, experience, and such most evident in game? Among BiS, experienced players. But the findings would still be the same if you looked at matches where everyone had average gear, skills, and experience.
In other games, this logic works perfectly because of exactly what you said. In this game, the "average" environment is actually a much better indication of balance. BiS gear is supposed to be broken and overpowered, its what makes Cryptic money. When everyone is BiS you are no longer overpowered but you are still quite broken. What this leads to is a meta-game that hardly resembles anything that 99% of the population will ever experience. So why balance the game around this endless clash of immortal glowy halflings jumping around in the grass of superheals?
This entire thread is actually a great testimony to this. The CW is terrible in this BiS environment but hardly terrible in the "average" environment. The day that the CW is balanced in a BiS environment will be the same day that the CW is super overpowered in normal Neverwinter PvP.
This isn't Starcraft 2 or League of Legends where basing balance off of the top-pros is beneficial. There's a pay-for-power model here that completely ruins this. The devs knew exactly what they were doing when deciding on the math for Rank 10s and Legendary Artifacts, which was allowing characters to break themselves.
So, I respectfully disagree that the findings would be the same.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Sorry about coming on wrong to you then. Ive just been so tired of arguing with the same people day in/ day out that don't have your knowledge. I argued with a guy who ONLY plays CWs, and he calls them "that weak, useless thing" in both PvE and PvP, yet when he gets thoroughly debunked by myself and others, he throws it to high end pvp'ers(some of which also don't have the other class experience) to try to troll me, where it gives me a bad impression of high end pvp'ers, as elitist types... Sorry
By the way, my girlfriend is a 16k PvP DC, who basically only needs enchants to improve, and Legendary artifacts... I do sympathize that DCs got screwed, and I rarely(if at all) pvp on my DC.
Let's all be friends! I respect your opinion and I think it should be examined with as much weight as anyone else's. I will also argue my point to the death, and perhaps at a fault. In the end, I'm happy this thread was able to generate as much discussion and debate as it did on CWs (and admittedly, I could have been a little more respectful in making my arguments).
It's about creating balance based on people with equal gear, experience, etc. Where is the equal gear, experience, and such most evident in game? Among BiS, experienced players.
I would tend to agree with this statement.
Who cares if your 12k GS CW was able to beat a bunch of 9k GS GWF? There is a big variable in skill and gear.
Among high end PVP, everyone is skilled, everyone is experienced, everyone has maxed their character with gear. Its all about class balance.
Again, I'd like to see any CW step up and face Gerftylog (ex-twitch streamer who will go back to streaming soon who plays a GWF) in a match. Spend $500 on your gear, pot up. It doesn't matter.
So why balance the game around this endless clash of immortal glowy halflings jumping around in the grass of superheals?
Point taken. The idea is that when you eliminate variance in gear (e.g., all BiS or not), build (e.g., all optimized or not), and skill (e.g., good keyboard skills or none), you’ll get some idea of where classes stand with respect to one another. Maybe that’s a bit idealistic, because having BiS gear in NW may allow you to play differently than someone with less gear, but it’s not a bad starting point either. You are right, though; other factors should also be taken into account (e.g., how most people play a class or what gear they can realistically be expected to obtain). I would never create class balance based SOLELY on what goes on in high-end PvP, but I don’t think it’s a bad idea to see what happens in an environment where you have eliminated large variances in things like gear, skill, and such. I do think it's important to understand the experiences of the average player; I just wouldn't dismiss the experiences of higher-end players who have some of the best understanding of class mechanics.
Point taken. The idea is that when you eliminate variance in gear (e.g., all BiS or not), build (e.g., all optimized or not), and skill (e.g., good keyboard skills or none), you’ll get some idea of where classes stand with respect to one another. Maybe that’s a bit idealistic, because having BiS gear in NW may allow you to play differently than someone with less gear, but it’s not a bad starting point either. You are right, though; other factors should also be taken into account (e.g., how most people play a class or what gear they can realistically be expected to obtain). I would never create class balance based SOLELY on what goes on in high-end PvP, but I don’t think it’s a bad idea to see what happens in an environment where you have eliminated large variances in things like gear, skill, and such. I do think it's important to understand the experiences of the average player; I just wouldn't dismiss the experiences of higher-end players who have some of the best understanding of class mechanics.
True this. Just wish there was also a tier system for pvp queueing too. A pvp gs bracket queue(I know it has been asked for in the past).
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Comments
It really is possible. Methinks you don't know how to build/play HR.
Obviously, only HRs "down in the trenches" can read and understand a "1 power working being inferior to a rotation" discussion.
You know what? not going to explain to someone who doesn't read.
How can it even make sense to discuss a power in isolation versus a class's rotation? It makes no sense to remove context when it's important.
And I think its clear from your constant raging that YOUR knowledge regarding what CWs/HRs/GWFs/DCs/GFs/TRs is based on the "I didn't do this myself, but listened to what others say" is pretty dang limited compared to someone whos used EVERY class in pvp.
LOL. Velynna does have one of every class. So do I. So does Macjae.
So you think I'm gonna sit there, use CA and do what...nothing?
But that's how it was explained. I didn't remove it from context, I addressed the fact that he brought up that its more OP than CW rotation. Left alone, CA is inferior to a CW rotation, whereas HRs rotation may in fact be superior. I personally love using Stormstep action, hitting my Daily, and watching all my encounters either come off cooldown, or be pretty close to use again.
Once again, he stated "HRs don't *need* to follow up with additional cc, because CA is all they need to render a CW helpless to use their best spells. CWs by contrast need to chain a bunch of spells together to achieve the same effect."
Using the phrase "CA is all they need to render a CW helpless to use their best spells. CWs by contrast need to chain a bunch of spells together to achieve the same effect." Is in fact saying that its the same, BY ITSELF, as CWs using their rotation. Read please before bandwagon jumping.
I have every class level 60, and two level 60 TRs and 2 level 60 DCs. I've played since the start of beta. I lead one of the most competitive PvP guilds in the game. I'm not raging, and my knowledge is based on my extensive in-game experience, frequent use of the PTR, and consistent testing of builds with others in my guild.
I don't know how many people it takes to tell you when you're wrong, but I'm guessing probably an infinite number.
So id expect something besides the whining here... plus, as I said, youre comparing 1 ability to the slew of CWs. If you correctly pronounced that you were taking all of your other abilities into context, this argument wouldn't have been needed in the first place.
"if you word something wrong, don't bark at the one addressing it as such. Correct the phrase, then we can all move along."
I don't even see where I'm wrong. I merely stated that I could, with the correct rotation/build, get my CA down to 5.6 seconds, which is entirely true.
And I also have every class(except a new TR im making, I deleted a Burst damage TR I MADE IN BETA) leveled to 60, with 2 GWFs(one iron vanguard, other destroyer), 2 GFs(one for pve tanking/kiting, other conqueror pvp). Ive played since open beta. I created a guild with my girlfriend, have played both pvp, pve, and every event(still have caturday survivor stuff on my GWF).
I don't know how many people it takes YOU to sympathize with any and all classes, but Im probably guessing you've never been in the low end, randomness of pugging pvp, dd's, or any event.
Everyone had to start somewhere. So, yes. I definitely have. The difference between you and I is that I've experienced BOTH worlds and can comment on both.
Ill phrase the original thing you said that started it, okay?
You didn't say something along the lines of "I use CA, followed by my rotation of powers, class features, feats, and gear, to render a CW helpless to use their best spells".
Then why are you trashing on pug pvp like it doesn't matter? That was the basics of what I asked, before you went "im pvp guild, high end pvp'er, nothing else matters" high horse. I never doubted that you had experience. I just doubt that you have pug experience when you use phrase such as "CWs are a liability in pvp" when I know that's not the case. Ive been on well coordinated teams that had wins, simply due to helping every class do what it has to, instead of "omg, I don't have a lot of kills, waaaah!".
Im using the word sympathy, because she isn't using it, I don't know how to spell it out more for you. She has said, at many points, that pug pvp doesn't matter. That's apathy, not sympathy.
You might want to read his posts, bra. I copy/pasted EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID. I think you need your reading glasses. Or worse.
For the millionth time, I am NOT trashing on PUG PvP. However, basing class balance on PUG PvP is a HORRIBLE idea. I mention high-end PvP not because that should be the standard, but because that's the main situation in-game where things like gear, experience, skill, etc., are most equal. And because of that, it gives you the best idea of what is and is not imbalanced. I don't know how many more times I have to repeat this. If you disagree that class balance should be created using information about classes when they are matched on important dimensions like build, skill, and such, let me know. Because that's what it sounds like with your obsessive references to PUG PvP.
And again, I've been on teams with two CWs where we've stomped 5-GWF parties. But again, this doesn't tell you anything about balance. Because it's PUG PvP, in which all the important dimensions are rarely matched as well as in high-end PvP. Which is why basing your opinion on class balance when all you do is PUG PvP will NOT always give you the best information about class balances. That's all.
velynna earned the respect of the PvP community many months ago. She's not always playing with BiS people, she pugs many times and carried many clueless pugs, such as yourself, to victory.
Yes the high end CWs wreck low end HRs or GWFs. They are supposed to, after almost a year of playing at highest level and with BiS gear.
BiS wrecking no BiS is not the issue. The issue is at the very top of PvP.
I'm done in this topic. I don't even play my CW any longer - like many other CWs. But since it was my second toon, I just vainly want it to be as viable as my GWF or TR, probably hopeless.
I said it before, the developers should gather up real PvPers that know what they doing for feedback purposes and stop listening to pugs. Most of the times they just give toxic feedback.
PvP players are getting tired of trying to help this game improve only to come to the forums and get trolled by pugs that have no idea what the hell are they talking about.
BiS maxed out characters should not be the basis around how a free-to-play MMO is balanced. I would be willing to bet that any changes they made to the CW that resulted in CWs becoming "balanced" in a BiS 5v5 Premade would also result in wizards absolutely dominating the rest of the game.
Balancing the CW in PvP will come down to expanding or changing the meta-game. They are plenty good at what they do, it just so happens that what they do is not as helpful for 5v5 Domination as what other classes can do.
Alternatively, they could add a new CW Paragon which completely rethinks how the CW is played.
In the meantime, please fix Shard and Armor Penetration.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
AND FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME, I am NOT trashing premade, high end pvp either. I may not like it(due to the generally elitist attitude there, which I see still stands), but im saying basing balance on that is ALSO a HORRIBLE IDEA.
Listen to this, if even for a second. They have an actual poll, respecting pug AND high end pvp players remarks, and fit pvp in that discussion. Doesn't need a bash or trash fest, but seriously, a bit of constructive opinions from all around, as opposed to the minority of pvp players, helps the whole situation.
I don't know how many more times I have to say this, but this game was made for PvE, with PvP as an afterthough. Anyone whos been here long enough should know this.
And also, for the millionth time, I never said that the classes aren't equal if equally geared. That's the main balance issue, I never disagreed with that. But, you never also pointed out anything towards the queue system, or how pug and premade groups get mismatched. I wanted to address this from the very beginning, but you(and others) went down the "high end pvp only" lane. I wanted to talk about everything, not get thrown off tangent because someone said "this doesn't matter, our minority of people who play with BiS gear with r10s, running with your also BiS teammates", its pretty hard to judge balance when your pugstomping 8k gs(which thankfully I have never been) players.
No one has said this. It's about creating balance based on people with equal gear, experience, etc. Where is the equal gear, experience, and such most evident in game? Among BiS, experienced players. But the findings would still be the same if you looked at matches where everyone had average gear, skills, and experience.
To williep: as I've mentioned, I have and do solo queue plenty. I don't know how much more "in the trenches" I can get. (And I solo queue on arguably one of the most painful classes to solo queue on -the DC, who can only carry a team so hard). Again, the difference between you and I is that I do both high end PvP and PUG matches (on characters with and without gear), and can speak to both.
Im talking about her seemingly apathy towards pug pvp, not the classes. Read. please.
I know I misquoted, but you sounded like what was pasted wasn't said at all. That's why I reposted it.
And I have played with many a different group, composed of different players, even carrying bad gwfs to victory or defeat.
If youre just going to bandwagon jump, and ignore others' experience, im glad youre gone. Unlike you, ill still play my CW, as it is my second oldest character, and deserves my attention through any changes they get(good or bad).
As has been said in the past, the developers listen to the players' generally, because they care about the community as a WHOLE. They need to stop listening to people with nothing but "waaaah my class is weak!" complaints(not you velynna, I now know youre not as elitist as others I run into. Just didn't sound right at first, sorry for the misunderstanding on my part
PvP players are getting tired of their classes getting "nerfed" because someone who barely touches any other class whines that an ability/setup/build that they don't even try to work around seems OP to them, and must be nerfed so its no longer viable.
Sorry about coming on wrong to you then. Ive just been so tired of arguing with the same people day in/ day out that don't have your knowledge. I argued with a guy who ONLY plays CWs, and he calls them "that weak, useless thing" in both PvE and PvP, yet when he gets thoroughly debunked by myself and others, he throws it to high end pvp'ers(some of which also don't have the other class experience) to try to troll me, where it gives me a bad impression of high end pvp'ers, as elitist types... Sorry
By the way, my girlfriend is a 16k PvP DC, who basically only needs enchants to improve, and Legendary artifacts... I do sympathize that DCs got screwed, and I rarely(if at all) pvp on my DC.
In other games, this logic works perfectly because of exactly what you said. In this game, the "average" environment is actually a much better indication of balance. BiS gear is supposed to be broken and overpowered, its what makes Cryptic money. When everyone is BiS you are no longer overpowered but you are still quite broken. What this leads to is a meta-game that hardly resembles anything that 99% of the population will ever experience. So why balance the game around this endless clash of immortal glowy halflings jumping around in the grass of superheals?
This entire thread is actually a great testimony to this. The CW is terrible in this BiS environment but hardly terrible in the "average" environment. The day that the CW is balanced in a BiS environment will be the same day that the CW is super overpowered in normal Neverwinter PvP.
This isn't Starcraft 2 or League of Legends where basing balance off of the top-pros is beneficial. There's a pay-for-power model here that completely ruins this. The devs knew exactly what they were doing when deciding on the math for Rank 10s and Legendary Artifacts, which was allowing characters to break themselves.
So, I respectfully disagree that the findings would be the same.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Let's all be friends! I respect your opinion and I think it should be examined with as much weight as anyone else's. I will also argue my point to the death, and perhaps at a fault. In the end, I'm happy this thread was able to generate as much discussion and debate as it did on CWs (and admittedly, I could have been a little more respectful in making my arguments).
I would tend to agree with this statement.
Who cares if your 12k GS CW was able to beat a bunch of 9k GS GWF? There is a big variable in skill and gear.
Among high end PVP, everyone is skilled, everyone is experienced, everyone has maxed their character with gear. Its all about class balance.
Again, I'd like to see any CW step up and face Gerftylog (ex-twitch streamer who will go back to streaming soon who plays a GWF) in a match. Spend $500 on your gear, pot up. It doesn't matter.
Point taken. The idea is that when you eliminate variance in gear (e.g., all BiS or not), build (e.g., all optimized or not), and skill (e.g., good keyboard skills or none), you’ll get some idea of where classes stand with respect to one another. Maybe that’s a bit idealistic, because having BiS gear in NW may allow you to play differently than someone with less gear, but it’s not a bad starting point either. You are right, though; other factors should also be taken into account (e.g., how most people play a class or what gear they can realistically be expected to obtain). I would never create class balance based SOLELY on what goes on in high-end PvP, but I don’t think it’s a bad idea to see what happens in an environment where you have eliminated large variances in things like gear, skill, and such. I do think it's important to understand the experiences of the average player; I just wouldn't dismiss the experiences of higher-end players who have some of the best understanding of class mechanics.
True this. Just wish there was also a tier system for pvp queueing too. A pvp gs bracket queue(I know it has been asked for in the past).