CWs suffer no matter what the circumstances, if a top tier pvp cw will full r10s perfects and legendary artifacts, is dieing to a crappy pve destroyer gwf.. there is a problem.. and yes this happens
What you are describing is the fact, that money can't get you gaming skill. I have seen this 10 years ago already in other f2p games. People spend boatloads of cash on items, then when it comes down to actually knowing their class, they realize "Dang, i have everything and i am still bad at what i am doing... but, but this can't be... let's cry on the forums!" it is a neverending cycle.
I haven't really seen any examples of that in this thread, other than in strawman arguments you've attempted to put up and then beat on. On the other hand, I have seen some people make the absurd argument that because a class is better than others in PvE, it should suck in PvP to compensate so as to not be the only class people desire to play.
The second absurd argument you've been putting up is that the players with the best equipment who play in the most demanding matches somehow shouldn't have their opinions counted because they're not "in the trenches," playing with scrubs. Personally, I play PvP with a character of every class, and the majority of my matches, I pug. The vast majority of pugs are awful and play it out wrong. With regards to CWs, there's no other class which is really as dependent on their team to do well as they are. Nerfing GWFs and TRs should help them, but they still need a little bit more of a push to be brought up to par.
Every and I mean EVERY person I'm arguing against is basically saying CWs suck. I believe they do not. Yes, they need help, but these people are saying they do NOTHING, which is a lie.
You say the vast majority of pugs suck, but you ignore the fact that that's not all of pug pvp. There are skilled people there too, they're just not geared, or not privileged enough to be in those high horse, elitist pvp guilds.
Who do you respect in war? The lowly soldier fighting for his and his battle buddies' life, or the commander sitting back 100's of miles away, drinking coffee deciding the soldiers' fate by looking from binoculars at a safe distance.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Message is, it's not always about gear, OPness, and such. Tactics and skill work too. My question is this: if these proclaimed pvp guilds, who do high end pvp all the time, where are the high end pvp tactics? Where is the team play? If they're so gosh darn great at pvp, why are they always running across 1v1 situations in 5v5 and 20v20 fights(seriously, according to these guys, they never fight as a team)? Granted, I know 1v1 happens at times, but seriously?
In 20vs20, you will notice that no one complains about class imbalance. Partly because it only happens once every couple of hours, partly because support class are actually able to provide support to a mass amount of teammates and opponents and partly because weaker classes (if there are) are hidden very well in those games.
In 5v5, you will run into a lot of 1v1 scenarios because there are 3 nodes and 5 players on each team. People die, people rotate to a different node, a GWF or a TR decides to get rid of you so that they can gang-up on your lone teammate right after. A CW now has to spend time running away and probably get killed very very quickly (compared to other classes). So people say to use CC? The only problem with that is, tenacity nerfed CW's CC. The shard is easily bugged by other classes so it isn't reliable if you are getting hit. Also, the 2 most popular and OP class in PVP (GWF and TR) have two powers that the CW cannot counter consistently. Unstoppable for GWF and perma-stealth/impossible to catch combo for TR.
If you would go and watch twitch streams of those matches, you will see how vital each second of standing on the node is. Those matches take an hour or so for good reason. There are 3 nodes, and now you have relegated the CW to fight in 1 node *IF* you have teammates protecting you and *IF* no one else decides to focus you down. The usual thing that happens is, they focus you down (while standing on the node). Now you have to run away or get killed. They are then able to 2v1 your other teammate and he eventually dies. They get 10-15 points on that exchange (which is a big deal in premades) and they repeat the process. The elite GWFs and TRs are tanky enough that an elite CW is unable to rotate DPS and quickly burst them down.
Every and I mean EVERY person I'm arguing against is basically saying CWs suck. I believe they do not. Yes, they need help, but these people are saying they do NOTHING, which is a lie.
No class is completely useless obviously. But right now, I'd say CW is probably the worst class in PVP and is a big liability in high end PVP premades *IN A 5vs5 DOMINATION MATCH*
Now if cryptic where to say....make 20vs20 the norm and take away the 5vs5 match. It would be a different story.
But that's not being "constructive" at all. One of the advantages CWs are supposed to have is range. If you give CWs less range, then it requires also making them tankier, because it would be even more difficult to maintain distance and kite opponents.
CWs have already taken a number of effective nerfs to their range, which is one of the reasons they are so bad.
- GWFs got Threatening Rush, so they can never be kited effectively, between that, sprint and utility powers to boost their speed. CWs are effectively melee range against GWFs already. The solution here is to nerf Threatening Rush.
- Between Tenacity, halfling cc resistance, dwarf pushing resistance, and maybe Deflect affecting cc effects, Repel doesn't work. No way to push people away and create more distance.
- Ranged attacks were always ineffective against TRs due to stealth. As an added cherry on top, TRs also get a utility power to move faster while in stealth, so you can't really run away from them if they want to chase you.
- GFs always had their Lunging Strike and Threatening Rush to close gaps. Boosting the range of Bull Charge just made it a bit easier. Still, they're the easiest class for CWs to kite. Maybe the only class that's actually possible to kite.
- HRs will beat CWs by using Constricting Arrow and Disruptive Shot to prevent CWs from casting anything, then perform a Fox Shift mercy-killing while the CW can't dodge due to being constricted. The solution here is probably to do something about Constricting Arrow.
- Which leaves DCs and other CWs. Against whom creating distance is pointless.
Giving CWs more damage/less range would be an absurd "solution." What they need is the ability to create and maintain distance (fix Repel, Threatening Rush, Constricting Arrow) and some more control (ignore 100% of Tenacity, reduce halfling cc resistance).
Constricting arrow is the only thing an HR has to use against a CW. Without it, HRs are sitting ducks to CWs because we have no way to get out of CC and you cannot dodge Icy Rays (which is pretty weird considering you can dodge everything else in the game).
If you're getting killed just by fox shift while you're constricted then it's a gear issue.
HRs (and GFs) are actually a class a CW has a big advantage over.
Really, the only classes CW doesn't have an advantage over is GWFs and TRs, simply because they have CC-immunity mechanics. The thing is, nobody really has an advantage over those two classes.
Constricting arrow is the only thing an HR has to use against a CW. Without it, HRs are sitting ducks to CWs because we have no way to get out of CC and you cannot dodge Icy Rays (which is pretty weird considering you can dodge everything else in the game).
If you're getting killed just by fox shift while you're constricted then it's a gear issue.
HRs (and GFs) are actually a class a CW has a big advantage over.
And... another thank you. If I pitted my HR(whos got 2k gs on them by the way) versus either of my pvp or pve oriented CWs, and take out Constricting Arrow and Fox's Shift on my HR, id lose to my CWs EVERY TIME.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
What you are describing is the fact, that money can't get you gaming skill. I have seen this 10 years ago already in other f2p games. People spend boatloads of cash on items, then when it comes down to actually knowing their class, they realize "Dang, i have everything and i am still bad at what i am doing... but, but this can't be... let's cry on the forums!" it is a neverending cycle.
Another shoutout to someone who gets it.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
In 20vs20, you will notice that no one complains about class imbalance. Partly because it only happens once every couple of hours, partly because support class are actually able to provide support to a mass amount of teammates and opponents and partly because weaker classes (if there are) are hidden very well in those games.
In 5v5, you will run into a lot of 1v1 scenarios because there are 3 nodes and 5 players on each team. People die, people rotate to a different node, a GWF or a TR decides to get rid of you so that they can gang-up on your lone teammate right after. A CW now has to spend time running away and probably get killed very very quickly (compared to other classes). So people say to use CC? The only problem with that is, tenacity nerfed CW's CC. The shard is easily bugged by other classes so it isn't reliable if you are getting hit. Also, the 2 most popular and OP class in PVP (GWF and TR) have two powers that the CW cannot counter consistently. Unstoppable for GWF and perma-stealth/impossible to catch combo for TR.
If you would go and watch twitch streams of those matches, you will see how vital each second of standing on the node is. Those matches take an hour or so for good reason. There are 3 nodes, and now you have relegated the CW to fight in 1 node *IF* you have teammates protecting you and *IF* no one else decides to focus you down. The usual thing that happens is, they focus you down (while standing on the node). Now you have to run away or get killed. They are then able to 2v1 your other teammate and he eventually dies. They get 10-15 points on that exchange (which is a big deal in premades) and they repeat the process. The elite GWFs and TRs are tanky enough that an elite CW is unable to rotate DPS and quickly burst them down.
Like I said, its not impossible to end with a 1v1 in 5v5 team domination... But these people complain that it HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. Like I also said earlier, if theyre so darn "elitist", and great at pvp in their pvp guilds, why is that scenario happening ALL THE TIME?(although I think a simple team command function would really help, like pressing 9 to say "CW needs help at 2" or something).
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Like I said, its not impossible to end with a 1v1 in 5v5 team domination... But these people complain that it HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. Like I also said earlier, if theyre so darn "elitist", and great at pvp in their pvp guilds, why is that scenario happening ALL THE TIME?(although I think a simple team command function would really help, like pressing 9 to say "CW needs help at 2" or something).
I explained in my previous post why it happens all the time. Also, asking for help means the opponent has an advantage someplace else.
The CW is the most fragile class right now that can be killed easily with a 1v1 or a 2v1. Thats a lot of points on the nodes going to opponents
I explained in my previous post why it happens all the time. Also, asking for help means the opponent has an advantage someplace else.
The CW is the most fragile class right now that can be killed easily with a 1v1 or a 2v1. Thats a lot of points on the nodes going to opponents
And I also explained in previous posts why this shouldn't be happening, that in high end, premade, elitist guild pvp, where is the team function? where is the GWF/GF saying im going to contest the node, so squishies don't? where are they in kiting/keeping enemies off your CWs back?
You send the tanks to cap, TRs to back cap/harass squishies, and CWs/HRs/DCs(and im assuming warlock when and if it comes out) to float in between, BUT NOT CONTEST THE NODES UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. Does someone who does only pug(except in 1 rare case) have to explain simple, centuries old tactics to high end, "pro" pvp guilds?
And, once again, your complaint about them being too fragile goes right back to the issue of defense.... So you want the mage class to get their high damage back(remember glass cannon CWs... I was one), get their cc back(although they should get this at least back) AND FACETANK ENEMY SWORDS. Really? wheres the balance in that proposal?
What version of D&D, or any other mmo for that matter, allows a class to be that godly? the only time ive done this is when(in pen and paper d&d) multiclassed my paladin to sorcerer roles, then made him a dragon disciple... Guess what happened? his spellcasting got limited/weakened, while I gained some amazing tankiness. But there was at least balance there.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
But my issue, as I posted earlier, that in high end, premade, elitist guild pvp, where is the team function? where is the GWF/GF saying im going to contest the node, so squishies don't?
Even with team function, at the end of the day, you have 5 people against 5 people. The CW needs help at mid? You have to take away one of your players from another node to help the CW. The enemy scores points either way.
This is a 5v5 PVP with 3 nodes. It isn't a 20v20 game wherein people can hide behind others or hide in a big big group.
where are they in kiting/keeping enemies off your CWs back?
Kiting and keeping enemies back? No, you aren't facing dumb AI monsters who fall for tank and spank strategy. People recognize CW immediately. They ignore the other players. The pop unstoppable, impossible to catch or stealth to resist incoming CC and go right for the CW. The CW isn't tanky enough to keep opponents busy and will die relatively fast compared to other classes being subjected to this focusing.
And, once again, your complaint about them being too fragile goes right back to the issue of defense.... So you want the mage class to get their high damage back(remember glass cannon CWs... I was one), get their cc back(although they should get this at least back) AND FACETANK ENEMY SWORDS. Really? wheres the balance in that proposal?
Seeing as how cryptic introduced tenacity and pretty much made everyone tanks, why not include the CW in that? Its not like CWs have CC or burst damage. Both of those have been nerfed.
What version of D&D, or any other mmo for that matter, allows a class to be that godly? the only time ive done this is when(in pen and paper d&d) multiclassed my paladin to sorcerer roles, then made him a dragon disciple... Guess what happened? his spellcasting got limited/weakened, while I gained some amazing tankiness. But there was at least balance there.
In the current meta, everyone is building their toons as super tanky. CW is neither tanky nor an insane DPS machine it once was nor a CC specialized class. What is it then?
Before we talk about the CW being godly, let us raise its level to competent first at high end pvp.
And... another thank you. If I pitted my HR(whos got 2k gs on them by the way) versus either of my pvp or pve oriented CWs, and take out Constricting Arrow and Fox's Shift on my HR, id lose to my CWs EVERY TIME.
What? And if a CW took out their main skills, they'd die to an HR even quicker than they do now. This is the most ridiculous argument I've seen in this thread. If a GWF stops using frontline surge, takedown, and IBS, I reckon they might die to a CW too. If a TR doesn't use stealth or ITC, I reckon they'd die to a CW too.
No one here has said that CWs are useless in PvP (what a straw-man argument). They aren't.
The point is that when everyone plays their class optimally (with or without gear), CWs will die to HRs, GWFs, and TRs. Now, they shouldn't be left in a 1v1 situation versus these classes (and that's one disadvantage a team has; they've got a player who cannot hold a point and does not compensate for this inability in DPS and/or control beyond what a GWF or others can do). And then in a 2v2 or 3v3, etc., they will die quite fast when focused.* Your arguments are based on individuals who are NOT playing their class optimally. Of course CWs will not have issues versus classes who have not optimized their builds or when they are not being focused. However, that's not a good argument. My DC can kill GWFs, HRs, TRs, and others if they play poorly. That proves nothing.
When all classes have the best builds possible (and I suspect some of you don't know what this looks like on other classes), that's when things fall apart for CWs. That's not to say they are useless. It is to say that they're disadvantaged in PvP. It all comes down to the fact that you might as well bring a class like a GWF instead of a CW in a party, who does similar burst and CC, but who can ALSO hold a point. Or bring an HR, who also has good CC, dmg and who can hold a point more effectively. Or a TR, who can also hold a point and has SE. What does a CW add over these classes? When all else is equal (gear, skill, build optimization), you'll find that they simply can't contribute to a party as much as other classes (of course, they still can contribute and can still be dangerous with the right support).
That is my experience as someone who PvPs constantly (in PUGs and competitive premades), who plays with some of this game's universally recognized best CWs (Sobek and Alt, among others), and who plays alongside and against some of the best players for other classes. I've seen Sobek and Alt 1v3 GWFs, HRs, and TRs in PUGs. You could use this to argue that CWs are OP, but it really all just comes down to build, gear and playstyle. Those raising problems about CW's weaknesses are basing their arguments on all else being equal (i.e., optimal build, gear, and skill). Some of the arguments in this thread make it obvious that certain individuals don't know what someone optimally playing a GWF, HR, etc. looks like.
So yes, CWs are disadvantaged, and yes, their class needs some adjustments in PvP. No, they are not completely useless as they are now, and no, they do not necessarily need drastic adjustments.
*For some reason, people in this thread have argued that if a CW is dying to focus, it's because their team is essentially bad. However, a DC cannot out-heal a CW being focused, and there is only so much a GWF and others can do to protect the CW; they also have to be focusing priority targets on the enemy team like CWs and HRs. They can't run around constantly trying to interrupt a tanky GWF on a CW while the other team's CW and/or HR free-cast.
And conversely, Constricting Arrow turns CWs into sitting ducks, with the occasional helping of some Disruptive Shot and Forest Ghost. The problem with Constricting Arrow is precisely what you point out: Once it's stuck to you, a CW can't escape the effect, and it keeps interrupting casting and making shards go away. Even if you dodge the initial shot, it will still interrupt afterwards. So this is an extremely overpowered power against CWs. Constricting Arrow is a far more potent effect than Icy Rays as well, since the latter will root you for a short time, while the former will keep interrupting your powers.
I don't quite buy that HRs would be sitting ducks to CWs if CA was less effective either (say, it could only interrupt with the initial cast and maybe get a slightly reduced cooldown to compensate). If you think so, that's probably a gear issue. A well-played HR with a good PvP set is extremely tanky, as long as he can time his shifts well. And now they're adding cc immunity to Fox Shift (though that comes along with a nerf to the number of times it can hit).
Constricting Arrow is also overpowered in other situations; especially against GFs.
Simply put, Constricting Arrow as is gives HRs too much of an advantage against CWs in particular.
Icy Rays is so good because it sets up CC combos for CWs. Constricting Arrow doesn't set up anything, it just stops an HR from getting CC'ed to death by a CW for a short duration. There is no CC to follow up with for HRs.
I think you're confusing "effective" with "over-powered". If you're going to nerf constricting arrow, which is the only thing to help a HR avoid a CC-combo of death from a CW, then you should also nerf icy rays so you can dodge it.
Range CC is the one thing HRs are weak to.
Try playing an HR against a CW. There's nothing more frustrating than Icy Rays when you're accustomed to and rely on having tons of movement.
If all the nerfs proposed went through- nerfing ITC, unstoppable, constricting arrow- then CWs would outright be the most OP class in PVP, along with them being by far the most OP class in PVE (and for the foreseeable future they will remain so).
What? And if a CW took out their main skills, they'd die to an HR even quicker than they do now. This is the most ridiculous argument I've seen in this thread. If a GWF stops using frontline surge, takedown, and IBS, I reckon they might die to a CW too. If a TR doesn't use stealth or ITC, I reckon they'd die to a CW too.
This was to address both that poster, AND another poster's "waaah this ability is OP" argument.
No one here has said that CWs are useless in PvP (what a straw-man argument). They aren't..
You, amongst others, have said that a CW doesn't kill, is pretty much a team liability, and is free, easy points to the enemy. Basically, YOU ARE SAYING THEY ARE USELESS, nice try . Just because you didn't say the word, but pretty much 99% of its definition, doesn't mean you didn't say the word.
The point is that when everyone plays their class optimally (with or without gear), CWs will die to HRs, GWFs, and TRs. And they will die quite fast when focused.* Your arguments are based on individuals who are NOT playing their class optimally. Of course CWs will not have issues versus classes who have not optimized their builds. However, that's not a good argument. My DC can kill GWFs, HRs, TRs, and others if they play poorly. That proves nothing.
And youre saying that CWs CANT kill when everyone plays their class optimally, when some CWs have even showed videos of CW 1v1, AND PROPER TEAM PLAYING WITH HIS TEAM, getting kills. Of course any class will have an issue against any class with same build, gear, optimal playstyle. Your argument of "high end" also proves nothing, because(and I cant believe I need to say this for the umpteenth time...sigh) high end pvp is not the majority of pvp. This has already been stated in past, present, and most likely future threads.
When all classes have the best builds possible (and I suspect some of you don't know what this looks like on other classes), that's when things fall apart for CWs. That's not to say they are useless. It is to say that they're disadvantaged in PvP.
And why did you not say this, instead of phrases "If you have a team with a CW and you're against a team without a CW, your team has to work harder for the win", "However, having one of your team means that your teammates have to be that much better than the opponents to provide the appropriate support a CW needs in order to be effective"(quoted, nice try pretending you didn't say these, anyone can look back at your posts ).
That is my experience as someone who PvPs constantly (in PUGs and competitive premades), who plays with some of this game's universally recognized best CWs (Sobek and Alt, among others), and who plays alongside and against some of the best players for other classes. I've seen Sobek and Alt 1v3 GWFs, HRs, and TRs in PUGs. You could use this to argue that CWs are OP, but it really all just comes down to build, gear and playstyle. Those raising problems about CW's weaknesses are basing their arguments on all else being equal (i.e., optimal build, gear, and skill). Some of the arguments in this thread make it obvious that certain individuals don't know what someone optimally playing a GWF, HR, etc. looks like.
Thing is, youre also being biased in your arguments about all else being equal, because until they make it so high end pvp can only queue in high end pvp, theres ALWAYS a sense of randomness. Youll get a pug group 1 game you roflstomp, the next you face a guild that stomps you, the next you get a great game between 2 guilds, or on rare occasion, you get a good pug team that gets together and stomps, or has a good game with you. A lot of the arguments in this thread are implying that they don't know what its like to fight with random teammates, and random team comps. I think, no, I KNOW that if I send my 14k gs iv destroyer gwf, he will probably get trashed to someone of the likes of Sobek. But, according to you, id humiliate them. Whos being the realist here?
*For some reason, people in this thread have argued that if a CW is dying to focus, it's because their team is essentially bad. However, a DC cannot out-heal a CW being focused, and there is only so much a GWF and others can do to protect the CW; they also have to be focusing priority targets on the enemy team like CWs and HRs. They can't run around constantly trying to interrupt a tanky GWF on a CW while the other team's CW and/or HR free-cast.
Here youre also falling back to past strawman arguments of, "were being targeted, it MUST be cuz were easy kills". Many people do not and are not uninformed enough to think this way. If im a GF, and I see the CW/HR in the distance, I don't go "oh look, easy kill". I go "oh <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, better stop him before he starts freezing/stunning/proning/debuffing/DoT'ing me or the members of my team. As I will say now(and will end up saying later, as certain people cant read) that the hardest classes to work are the ones who have to keep track of the battle itself. A GWF/GF rushes in swinging, a TR sneaks around and focuses on 1v1 confrontations, and CWs/HRs/DCs are the ones in the commander chair, sitting back and deciding where to put their 2 cents(comparison to my commander versus soldier analogy). I give respect for those players who have to do that, that's hard(although the trench soldier gets more from me). Is it really that difficult for a GWF(seeing as people say they can easily 3v1 people) to be contesting a node, and if he notices a GWF/GF/HR(melee)/TR(if he see him) to try to stop them? Yes, their back is turned, but as you people say it, youre pretty sure that they can do that(seeing as theyre so godly in PVP). By the way, I have done this exact thing on my GF/GWF, and got compliments from mages for playing as a tank:).
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Even with team function, at the end of the day, you have 5 people against 5 people. The CW needs help at mid? You have to take away one of your players from another node to help the CW. The enemy scores points either way.
And what? the enemy wont be coming to help their teammate being 2v1'ed now? Cuz that scenario happens too. The one not fighting now may cap, but then leave a 2v1 situation for the enemies' advantage, and now, that teammate gets mopped up. Now theres 2 enemies bearing down on them, while your teammates respawning. Who has the advantage now?
Kiting and keeping enemies back? No, you aren't facing dumb AI monsters who fall for tank and spank strategy. People recognize CW immediately. They ignore the other players. The pop unstoppable, impossible to catch or stealth to resist incoming CC and go right for the CW. The CW isn't tanky enough to keep opponents busy and will die relatively fast compared to other classes being subjected to this focusing.
Once again, what, will your teammates be, just standing there like dummies? Even in unstoppable they still take damage(now combat advantage damage, I might add), the TR just wasted his ITC to hope to get to the CW(what? will the CW be within an inch behind the fight, heck no!). And now did they not also give up their contesting, but if the CWs good enough(and I have had to do this), kited them, allowing my team the cap. This is team play capping, not "who gets the most wins, wins".
Seeing as how cryptic introduced tenacity and pretty much made everyone tanks, why not include the CW in that? Its not like CWs have CC or burst damage. Both of those have been nerfed.
And(sigh) its already been explained that tenacity ALSO made CWs tankier than before. Just because they cant facetank, does not mean they cant tank. As a CW ive had to kite 1 sometimes 2 fighters, and did so either lasting long enough for teammates to massacre, or I died, but we got cap.
In the current meta, everyone is building their toons as super tanky. CW is neither tanky nor an insane DPS machine it once was nor a CC specialized class. What is it then?
In any and all games, the CLOTH WEARING SPELL CASTING MAGE WAS NEVER MEANT TO FACETANK, and although it happens, tenacity actually has made many and all battles last longer. Tell me a time in the past when a CW could facetank a couple fighters. They could focus one, then the other killed them in moments. I started pvp as soon as tenacity update came out, and ran across(with just base tenacity I might add) a 2v1 situation with 2 GFs(who complained when they realized I wasn't wearing any tenacity gear, I might add). I was never able to do that before.
Before we talk about the CW being godly, let us raise its level to competent first at high end pvp.
And this was all someone, ANYONE needed to say. Not the OP "why isn't my wizard as defense enabled as a TANK", or "The CW is the most fragile class right now that can be killed easily with a 1v1 or a 2v1. Thats a lot of points on the nodes going to opponents"(once again, where is your team, if theyre so gosh darn high end(as many have stated) THAT YOUR SQUISHY MAGE CLASS HAS TO BE THE ONE NODE CONTESTING?).
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
No. I am NOT saying CWs are useless. I'm saying they're disadvantaged. That is NOT the same thing. Stop trying to make my argument into something it isn't.
I bring up high-end PvP, because that's where things tend to be the most equal (gear, skill, optimal builds). Of course in PUG matches, not everything will be equal. But when you're striving for class balance, you design classes based on everything being equal. You aren't going to adjust a class because when it's got a 17k gs, it destroys a different 5k gs class. You first have to create class balance based on information gathered about how the classes interact when all else is equal.
My previous quotes still stand. I haven't said anything to contradict those, nor am I pretending I never said them. Not sure what point you're trying to make here.
Sobek would trash your 14k Destroyer GWF because it's not built optimally for PvP and you don't have the skills to match Sobek. You clearly aren't understanding what I'm saying if you're indicating I would say otherwise. That's a perfect example of all else not being equal.
No, I'm NOT saying people target CWs simply because they're easy targets (again, you read in really weird, random stuff into my arguments). If something is an easy target, but harmless, you aren't going to waste time on them. This is why I'm saying that CWs AREN'T useless, because they still do some good burst damage. However, the issue is that they are ALSO easily focused, which negates a large portion of their threat. If a CW is killed before they can be as effective as any other class, that's a potential issue. And yes, in parties who know anything about basic PvP, they are focused fast. This, combined with some of the other points I've made, is why CWs as they are now would benefit from some adjustment. No other class that does similar burst damage or CC to CWs can be killed nearly as fast. I don't believe CWs should be turned into tanks, but they should be sufficiently compensated (in some way) for their squishiness.
Feel free to disagree. Or to keep misrepresenting my arguments and formulating yours based on what is largely PUG-limited PvP where it's more difficult to assess class balance given the huge range in gear, experience, and builds. Like I've said, throw Sobek and Alt in a PUG match, and they will seem crazy OP. Throw them in an experienced, competitive premade (where everything is much more equal), and their class weaknesses will become a lot clearer.
EDIT: If you ever start doing organized premades, you'll soon learn that having a CW on your team is considered a "comp disadvantage" by all experienced players versus a team that isn't bringing one. There's a reason for that.
This is an absurd statement. HRs don't *need* to follow up with additional cc, because CA is all they need to render a CW helpless to use their best spells. CWs by contrast need to chain a bunch of spells together to achieve the same effect.
Have you not seen the cooldown rate of Constricting Arrow? a cooldown rate of 11.6 seconds(and that's putting on my recovery set, gimping damage and armor pen by the way) is not as good as my CWs(using HV/Magelord hybrid, for 3.7k recovery) cooldown rates. I throw in chill strike(8.2), entangling force(10.1), repel(6.9), icy rays(12.6), steal time(13.9), even shard(12.6), and I have a rotation of multiple powers meant to control AND dish out damage, versus one power that does small damage once, and interrupts the target 3 times(once every 3 seconds). Mind you, all of the CWs powers are also superior damaging too.
This isn't untrue, it's just that HRs have better ranged cc than CWs when they're up against each other in a 1v1 scenario..
And what gametype is pvp anyway? 1v1 happens, but when youre being attacked by multiple opponents, which one has the better chance?(as far as cc goes. the HR does make up for this with better tankiness, escape abilities, but are they not BETTER CLOTHED FIGHTERS?).
I'm not sure which list of nerfs you're referring to here. And PvE considerations are completely irrelevant in terms of talking about PvP balance.
Thing is, until they make PvP function differently than PvE , this is relevant. You make Rangers inferior to CWs in range dps, and their one good thing over CWs is null and void, and people will choose CW over HR in PvE AND PvP.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
And what? the enemy wont be coming to help their teammate being 2v1'ed now? Cuz that scenario happens too. The one not fighting now may cap, but then leave a 2v1 situation for the enemies' advantage, and now, that teammate gets mopped up. Now theres 2 enemies bearing down on them, while your teammates respawning. Who has the advantage now?
Umm no. You see, unlike CWs, other classes are tanky enough to hold ground. They can then counter it with calling let's say....another GWF. The opponent focuses on the CW. You die. They 2v1 your teammates. He dies...but much more slowly because he isn't a fragile CW. They score 10-15 points. Repeat process.
Once again, what, will your teammates be, just standing there like dummies? Even in unstoppable they still take damage(now combat advantage damage, I might add), the TR just wasted his ITC to hope to get to the CW(what? will the CW be within an inch behind the fight, heck no!). And now did they not also give up their contesting, but if the CWs good enough(and I have had to do this), kited them, allowing my team the cap. This is team play capping, not "who gets the most wins, wins".
I can see you don't play against elite TRs. The elite TRs cycle through stealth and ITC. You also don't play with 40k GWF who stack HP, regen, defense and a little artifact called Emblem.
First of all, good luck trying to do that against elite GWF, HR, TR. They are able to promptly hunt you down. If the CW does manage to kite far away, they simply go back to the node and 2v1 your teammate. If you come back, they will harass you until you leave again so they can 2v1 your teammate.
And(sigh) its already been explained that tenacity ALSO made CWs tankier than before. Just because they cant facetank, does not mean they cant tank. As a CW ive had to kite 1 sometimes 2 fighters, and did so either lasting long enough for teammates to massacre, or I died, but we got cap.
I think you are talking about PUG PVP. Now if you want to have a discussion about PUG PVP being the staple for PVP balances, that is another discussion we can have. I want to first establish that at high end PVP, CW is a liability. Then we can jump onto that topic (ie: whether we should look at high end pvp or pug pvp as the staple of class balance)
In any and all games, the CLOTH WEARING SPELL CASTING MAGE WAS NEVER MEANT TO FACETANK, and although it happens, tenacity actually has made many and all battles last longer. Tell me a time in the past when a CW could facetank a couple fighters. They could focus one, then the other killed them in moments. I started pvp as soon as tenacity update came out, and ran across(with just base tenacity I might add) a 2v1 situation with 2 GFs(who complained when they realized I wasn't wearing any tenacity gear, I might add). I was never able to do that before.
Lore does not justify class imbalance. If you have another suggestion to balance CW at high end PVP, I'd love to hear it (there are other ways).
However, this is an MMO game first, DDO license second. Game balance is a priority over lore.
And this was all someone, ANYONE needed to say. Not the OP "why isn't my wizard as defense enabled as a TANK", or "The CW is the most fragile class right now that can be killed easily with a 1v1 or a 2v1. Thats a lot of points on the nodes going to opponents"(once again, where is your team, if theyre so gosh darn high end(as many have stated) THAT YOUR SQUISHY MAGE CLASS HAS TO BE THE ONE NODE CONTESTING?).
No. And that is the problem. This is a very small comp (5 players) with a relatively large amount of nodes needed to contest (3). The fact that the CW is unable to go to 66% of the nodes without being at a huge disadvantage is a game imbalance. The fact that the CW is so squishy that it can be focused down easily so that the enemy has a numbers advantage is a game imbalance.
Like I said, making 20vs20 the norm is another solution (not necessarily the best one or the one I am demanding).
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Have you not seen the cooldown rate of Constricting Arrow? a cooldown rate of 11.6 seconds(and that's putting on my recovery set, gimping damage and armor pen by the way) is not as good as my CWs(using HV/Magelord hybrid, for 3.7k recovery) cooldown rates. I throw in chill strike(8.2), entangling force(10.1), repel(6.9), icy rays(12.6), steal time(13.9), even shard(12.6), and I have a rotation of multiple powers meant to control AND dish out damage, versus one power that does small damage once, and interrupts the target 3 times(once every 3 seconds). Mind you, all of the CWs powers are also superior damaging too.
With a CA on you can't cast Chill Strike, Steal Time or Shard. If I hit you with a disrupting shot you can't even dodge my next two attacks.
With the right passive setup I can get my CA down to 5.6 seconds and I have 783 recovery.
Im not going to repeat what I posted, as you clearly do not read. Saying something IS useless is the same as saying that, and I quote "having a CW on your team is considered a "comp disadvantage" by all experienced players versus a team that isn't bringing one."
My previous quotes will still stand as well. Youre "balance" doesn't also denote differing levels of gameplay experience.
I for a fact do believe that my GWF will be trashed by Sobek(really, what are you reading, as youre obviously not reading here), EVEN IF MY GWF HAD EQUAL GEARSCORE TO SOBEK. He is a more experienced player. Ive also beaten GWFs OF MY SAME GS(once again, what are you reading if you didn't hear that already?).
Once again, never said against boosting their damage. I was completely fine in the past when they were glass cannon, 1 hitting machines(once again, I think youre not reading some(seeing as I have stated exactly this), if any at all, arguments in the thread). Ive had to state this several times now, and IM the one not reading?!
And ive also stated, asking: what are you high end pvp teammates doing?(once again, back to your lack of reading past posts) Are they twiddling their thumbs, letting you die? Where's the teamwork in letting your support classes get targeted and die?(CAN NOT believe ive had to explain this simple statement many times already)
Feel free to disagree. Or to keep misunderstanding my arguments and formulating yours based on what is largely premade, high end pvp, where everybody's either running in money bought gear, copying peoples' builds(instead of thinking for yourself), and running pugstomp groups, where its difficult to also assess balance, given how easy it is for a player like Sobek to school a mediocre player like me.
P.S. If you ever decide not to play with your pvp guild, running r10s, BiS gear, Legendary Artifact, PvP potions, Perfect Soulforged games, youll soon learn that, although it is hard for CWs, its hard for everyone down here in the trenches, and my best games have been with pugs who understand the basic "melees contest nodes and protect squishies" instead of "we ONLY care about 1v1 situations in NODE CAPPING PVP". Theres a reason words like "kiting", "tanking", "target prioritization", is used in any and all mmo's.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
With a CA on you can't cast Chill Strike, Steal Time or Shard. If I hit you with a disrupting shot you can't even dodge my next two attacks.
With the right passive setup I can get my CA down to 5.6 seconds and I have 783 recovery.
Actually, NO. You know this is not possible. My HR has 1400 recovery(without recovery set), and my CA cooldown IS NOT that low.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You probably need to familiarize yourself with HRs a bit more, then. Try the Agile Hunter feat the Stormstep Action utility power, and use Disruptive Shot.
I think you forget that Stormstep needs a Daily to hit first, BEFORE lowering power cooldowns. And Agile Hunter not only requires I go melee path, but also reduce my encounters by 1 second PER MELEE ENCOUNTER I USE. If youre going back to your versatility, that goes back to reducing them by 3 seconds each, by slotting 3 melee powers. Im pretty sure the CW using his ROTATION OF CONSTANT DAMAGE, LOW COOLDOWN POWERS is still superior to that.
Okay, so by this logic, it would be perfectly fine to totally remove Constricting Arrow, since it's not a 1v1 game, and HRs can just call on help against CWs.
I almost have no idea what to say about this... Youre arguing that an HR remove its only useful cc against a CWs onslaught of consistent, better at stunning/freezing/proning, just because the CW can do it better? thanks for arguing on the HR side, cuz this statement is quite bad.
Which really still has absolutely no bearing on talking about PvP balance in and of itself. That HRs are dreadful in PvE is something they also need to address on its own, but it has no real bearing on this discussion. The powers used in PvE for each class are generally different than those used in PvP.
Im pretty sure powers act the very same in both PvE AND PvP. If anything, going by your argument, HR abilities are actually less useful in PvP, due to how useless they end up being. Whats Boar Hide ability if TRs/HRs/CWs/DCs/GFs/GWFs can ping for DoTs to negate that in no time? How useful is Aimed Shot when anyone staring down it knows what to do(anything and everything disrupts it)? Whats Split Shot, when at best theres a few targets to hit(not to mention its getting a drastic damage reduction in mod 3). Whats Fox's Shift when, although its damage gets boosted, now hits half as much as it used to(I remember TRs Lashing Blade got cut like this, wonder how many complained? )?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
AGAIN, your GWF will be destroyed by Sobek BECAUSE not everything is equal; even if you have the SAME GS, you lack equal skill and a decent PvP spec. If you were reading, I wasn't discussing GS (that's not a good assessment of someone's gear set up, skill, or build).
My "balance" is in terms of people with equal skill, gear, etc. It doesn't have to be high-end PvP (that's just where class balance is easiest to identify in-game). It can also be between players who both have little (but equal) experience, gear, etc. The point is that class balance should be determined when all else is equal. Obviously.
I've already explained why, as a CW, you can't rely on your teammates to always save you. It's pretty obvious. If you could, CWs would rarely ever die. Feel free to also discuss this in-game with people like Sobek.
As a sidenote, I don't only run in premades or BiS gear, etc. I solo-queue plenty. In addition, I didn't buy my BiS gear with money, we're the ones who create the builds you copy, and we don't run premades to pugstomp (we run them to run into other premades or we organize them with other guilds. There's nothing more boring than pugstomping).
I think it's clear from all your arguments between you and others in this forum that your knowledge about this game (and particularly CWs and HRs) is pretty limited compared to that of others.
Perfectly possible. See macjae's post. Full combat specced and with the correct rotation I can also have dual thorn wards up on a node.
Thing is, that's a ROTATION. Many things you have to do in an order to get similar results. The complaint was about that single power (CA) versus a CWs rotation.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Comments
What you are describing is the fact, that money can't get you gaming skill. I have seen this 10 years ago already in other f2p games. People spend boatloads of cash on items, then when it comes down to actually knowing their class, they realize "Dang, i have everything and i am still bad at what i am doing... but, but this can't be... let's cry on the forums!" it is a neverending cycle.
Every and I mean EVERY person I'm arguing against is basically saying CWs suck. I believe they do not. Yes, they need help, but these people are saying they do NOTHING, which is a lie.
You say the vast majority of pugs suck, but you ignore the fact that that's not all of pug pvp. There are skilled people there too, they're just not geared, or not privileged enough to be in those high horse, elitist pvp guilds.
Who do you respect in war? The lowly soldier fighting for his and his battle buddies' life, or the commander sitting back 100's of miles away, drinking coffee deciding the soldiers' fate by looking from binoculars at a safe distance.
In 20vs20, you will notice that no one complains about class imbalance. Partly because it only happens once every couple of hours, partly because support class are actually able to provide support to a mass amount of teammates and opponents and partly because weaker classes (if there are) are hidden very well in those games.
In 5v5, you will run into a lot of 1v1 scenarios because there are 3 nodes and 5 players on each team. People die, people rotate to a different node, a GWF or a TR decides to get rid of you so that they can gang-up on your lone teammate right after. A CW now has to spend time running away and probably get killed very very quickly (compared to other classes). So people say to use CC? The only problem with that is, tenacity nerfed CW's CC. The shard is easily bugged by other classes so it isn't reliable if you are getting hit. Also, the 2 most popular and OP class in PVP (GWF and TR) have two powers that the CW cannot counter consistently. Unstoppable for GWF and perma-stealth/impossible to catch combo for TR.
If you would go and watch twitch streams of those matches, you will see how vital each second of standing on the node is. Those matches take an hour or so for good reason. There are 3 nodes, and now you have relegated the CW to fight in 1 node *IF* you have teammates protecting you and *IF* no one else decides to focus you down. The usual thing that happens is, they focus you down (while standing on the node). Now you have to run away or get killed. They are then able to 2v1 your other teammate and he eventually dies. They get 10-15 points on that exchange (which is a big deal in premades) and they repeat the process. The elite GWFs and TRs are tanky enough that an elite CW is unable to rotate DPS and quickly burst them down.
No class is completely useless obviously. But right now, I'd say CW is probably the worst class in PVP and is a big liability in high end PVP premades *IN A 5vs5 DOMINATION MATCH*
Now if cryptic where to say....make 20vs20 the norm and take away the 5vs5 match. It would be a different story.
Constricting arrow is the only thing an HR has to use against a CW. Without it, HRs are sitting ducks to CWs because we have no way to get out of CC and you cannot dodge Icy Rays (which is pretty weird considering you can dodge everything else in the game).
If you're getting killed just by fox shift while you're constricted then it's a gear issue.
HRs (and GFs) are actually a class a CW has a big advantage over.
Really, the only classes CW doesn't have an advantage over is GWFs and TRs, simply because they have CC-immunity mechanics. The thing is, nobody really has an advantage over those two classes.
And... another thank you. If I pitted my HR(whos got 2k gs on them by the way) versus either of my pvp or pve oriented CWs, and take out Constricting Arrow and Fox's Shift on my HR, id lose to my CWs EVERY TIME.
Another shoutout to someone who gets it.
Like I said, its not impossible to end with a 1v1 in 5v5 team domination... But these people complain that it HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. Like I also said earlier, if theyre so darn "elitist", and great at pvp in their pvp guilds, why is that scenario happening ALL THE TIME?(although I think a simple team command function would really help, like pressing 9 to say "CW needs help at 2" or something).
I explained in my previous post why it happens all the time. Also, asking for help means the opponent has an advantage someplace else.
The CW is the most fragile class right now that can be killed easily with a 1v1 or a 2v1. Thats a lot of points on the nodes going to opponents
And I also explained in previous posts why this shouldn't be happening, that in high end, premade, elitist guild pvp, where is the team function? where is the GWF/GF saying im going to contest the node, so squishies don't? where are they in kiting/keeping enemies off your CWs back?
You send the tanks to cap, TRs to back cap/harass squishies, and CWs/HRs/DCs(and im assuming warlock when and if it comes out) to float in between, BUT NOT CONTEST THE NODES UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. Does someone who does only pug(except in 1 rare case) have to explain simple, centuries old tactics to high end, "pro" pvp guilds?
And, once again, your complaint about them being too fragile goes right back to the issue of defense.... So you want the mage class to get their high damage back(remember glass cannon CWs... I was one), get their cc back(although they should get this at least back) AND FACETANK ENEMY SWORDS. Really? wheres the balance in that proposal?
What version of D&D, or any other mmo for that matter, allows a class to be that godly? the only time ive done this is when(in pen and paper d&d) multiclassed my paladin to sorcerer roles, then made him a dragon disciple... Guess what happened? his spellcasting got limited/weakened, while I gained some amazing tankiness. But there was at least balance there.
Even with team function, at the end of the day, you have 5 people against 5 people. The CW needs help at mid? You have to take away one of your players from another node to help the CW. The enemy scores points either way.
This is a 5v5 PVP with 3 nodes. It isn't a 20v20 game wherein people can hide behind others or hide in a big big group.
Kiting and keeping enemies back? No, you aren't facing dumb AI monsters who fall for tank and spank strategy. People recognize CW immediately. They ignore the other players. The pop unstoppable, impossible to catch or stealth to resist incoming CC and go right for the CW. The CW isn't tanky enough to keep opponents busy and will die relatively fast compared to other classes being subjected to this focusing.
Seeing as how cryptic introduced tenacity and pretty much made everyone tanks, why not include the CW in that? Its not like CWs have CC or burst damage. Both of those have been nerfed.
In the current meta, everyone is building their toons as super tanky. CW is neither tanky nor an insane DPS machine it once was nor a CC specialized class. What is it then?
Before we talk about the CW being godly, let us raise its level to competent first at high end pvp.
What? And if a CW took out their main skills, they'd die to an HR even quicker than they do now. This is the most ridiculous argument I've seen in this thread. If a GWF stops using frontline surge, takedown, and IBS, I reckon they might die to a CW too. If a TR doesn't use stealth or ITC, I reckon they'd die to a CW too.
No one here has said that CWs are useless in PvP (what a straw-man argument). They aren't.
The point is that when everyone plays their class optimally (with or without gear), CWs will die to HRs, GWFs, and TRs. Now, they shouldn't be left in a 1v1 situation versus these classes (and that's one disadvantage a team has; they've got a player who cannot hold a point and does not compensate for this inability in DPS and/or control beyond what a GWF or others can do). And then in a 2v2 or 3v3, etc., they will die quite fast when focused.* Your arguments are based on individuals who are NOT playing their class optimally. Of course CWs will not have issues versus classes who have not optimized their builds or when they are not being focused. However, that's not a good argument. My DC can kill GWFs, HRs, TRs, and others if they play poorly. That proves nothing.
When all classes have the best builds possible (and I suspect some of you don't know what this looks like on other classes), that's when things fall apart for CWs. That's not to say they are useless. It is to say that they're disadvantaged in PvP. It all comes down to the fact that you might as well bring a class like a GWF instead of a CW in a party, who does similar burst and CC, but who can ALSO hold a point. Or bring an HR, who also has good CC, dmg and who can hold a point more effectively. Or a TR, who can also hold a point and has SE. What does a CW add over these classes? When all else is equal (gear, skill, build optimization), you'll find that they simply can't contribute to a party as much as other classes (of course, they still can contribute and can still be dangerous with the right support).
That is my experience as someone who PvPs constantly (in PUGs and competitive premades), who plays with some of this game's universally recognized best CWs (Sobek and Alt, among others), and who plays alongside and against some of the best players for other classes. I've seen Sobek and Alt 1v3 GWFs, HRs, and TRs in PUGs. You could use this to argue that CWs are OP, but it really all just comes down to build, gear and playstyle. Those raising problems about CW's weaknesses are basing their arguments on all else being equal (i.e., optimal build, gear, and skill). Some of the arguments in this thread make it obvious that certain individuals don't know what someone optimally playing a GWF, HR, etc. looks like.
So yes, CWs are disadvantaged, and yes, their class needs some adjustments in PvP. No, they are not completely useless as they are now, and no, they do not necessarily need drastic adjustments.
*For some reason, people in this thread have argued that if a CW is dying to focus, it's because their team is essentially bad. However, a DC cannot out-heal a CW being focused, and there is only so much a GWF and others can do to protect the CW; they also have to be focusing priority targets on the enemy team like CWs and HRs. They can't run around constantly trying to interrupt a tanky GWF on a CW while the other team's CW and/or HR free-cast.
Icy Rays is so good because it sets up CC combos for CWs. Constricting Arrow doesn't set up anything, it just stops an HR from getting CC'ed to death by a CW for a short duration. There is no CC to follow up with for HRs.
I think you're confusing "effective" with "over-powered". If you're going to nerf constricting arrow, which is the only thing to help a HR avoid a CC-combo of death from a CW, then you should also nerf icy rays so you can dodge it.
Range CC is the one thing HRs are weak to.
Try playing an HR against a CW. There's nothing more frustrating than Icy Rays when you're accustomed to and rely on having tons of movement.
If all the nerfs proposed went through- nerfing ITC, unstoppable, constricting arrow- then CWs would outright be the most OP class in PVP, along with them being by far the most OP class in PVE (and for the foreseeable future they will remain so).
This was to address both that poster, AND another poster's "waaah this ability is OP" argument.
You, amongst others, have said that a CW doesn't kill, is pretty much a team liability, and is free, easy points to the enemy. Basically, YOU ARE SAYING THEY ARE USELESS, nice try
And youre saying that CWs CANT kill when everyone plays their class optimally, when some CWs have even showed videos of CW 1v1, AND PROPER TEAM PLAYING WITH HIS TEAM, getting kills. Of course any class will have an issue against any class with same build, gear, optimal playstyle. Your argument of "high end" also proves nothing, because(and I cant believe I need to say this for the umpteenth time...sigh) high end pvp is not the majority of pvp. This has already been stated in past, present, and most likely future threads.
And why did you not say this, instead of phrases "If you have a team with a CW and you're against a team without a CW, your team has to work harder for the win", "However, having one of your team means that your teammates have to be that much better than the opponents to provide the appropriate support a CW needs in order to be effective"(quoted, nice try pretending you didn't say these, anyone can look back at your posts
Thing is, youre also being biased in your arguments about all else being equal, because until they make it so high end pvp can only queue in high end pvp, theres ALWAYS a sense of randomness. Youll get a pug group 1 game you roflstomp, the next you face a guild that stomps you, the next you get a great game between 2 guilds, or on rare occasion, you get a good pug team that gets together and stomps, or has a good game with you. A lot of the arguments in this thread are implying that they don't know what its like to fight with random teammates, and random team comps. I think, no, I KNOW that if I send my 14k gs iv destroyer gwf, he will probably get trashed to someone of the likes of Sobek. But, according to you, id humiliate them. Whos being the realist here?
Here youre also falling back to past strawman arguments of, "were being targeted, it MUST be cuz were easy kills". Many people do not and are not uninformed enough to think this way. If im a GF, and I see the CW/HR in the distance, I don't go "oh look, easy kill". I go "oh <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, better stop him before he starts freezing/stunning/proning/debuffing/DoT'ing me or the members of my team. As I will say now(and will end up saying later, as certain
And what? the enemy wont be coming to help their teammate being 2v1'ed now? Cuz that scenario happens too. The one not fighting now may cap, but then leave a 2v1 situation for the enemies' advantage, and now, that teammate gets mopped up. Now theres 2 enemies bearing down on them, while your teammates respawning. Who has the advantage now?
Once again, what, will your teammates be, just standing there like dummies? Even in unstoppable they still take damage(now combat advantage damage, I might add), the TR just wasted his ITC to hope to get to the CW(what? will the CW be within an inch behind the fight, heck no!). And now did they not also give up their contesting, but if the CWs good enough(and I have had to do this), kited them, allowing my team the cap. This is team play capping, not "who gets the most wins, wins".
And(sigh) its already been explained that tenacity ALSO made CWs tankier than before. Just because they cant facetank, does not mean they cant tank. As a CW ive had to kite 1 sometimes 2 fighters, and did so either lasting long enough for teammates to massacre, or I died, but we got cap.
In any and all games, the CLOTH WEARING SPELL CASTING MAGE WAS NEVER MEANT TO FACETANK, and although it happens, tenacity actually has made many and all battles last longer. Tell me a time in the past when a CW could facetank a couple fighters. They could focus one, then the other killed them in moments. I started pvp as soon as tenacity update came out, and ran across(with just base tenacity I might add) a 2v1 situation with 2 GFs(who complained when they realized I wasn't wearing any tenacity gear, I might add). I was never able to do that before.
And this was all someone, ANYONE needed to say. Not the OP "why isn't my wizard as defense enabled as a TANK", or "The CW is the most fragile class right now that can be killed easily with a 1v1 or a 2v1. Thats a lot of points on the nodes going to opponents"(once again, where is your team, if theyre so gosh darn high end(as many have stated) THAT YOUR SQUISHY MAGE CLASS HAS TO BE THE ONE NODE CONTESTING?).
No. I am NOT saying CWs are useless. I'm saying they're disadvantaged. That is NOT the same thing. Stop trying to make my argument into something it isn't.
I bring up high-end PvP, because that's where things tend to be the most equal (gear, skill, optimal builds). Of course in PUG matches, not everything will be equal. But when you're striving for class balance, you design classes based on everything being equal. You aren't going to adjust a class because when it's got a 17k gs, it destroys a different 5k gs class. You first have to create class balance based on information gathered about how the classes interact when all else is equal.
My previous quotes still stand. I haven't said anything to contradict those, nor am I pretending I never said them. Not sure what point you're trying to make here.
Sobek would trash your 14k Destroyer GWF because it's not built optimally for PvP and you don't have the skills to match Sobek. You clearly aren't understanding what I'm saying if you're indicating I would say otherwise. That's a perfect example of all else not being equal.
No, I'm NOT saying people target CWs simply because they're easy targets (again, you read in really weird, random stuff into my arguments). If something is an easy target, but harmless, you aren't going to waste time on them. This is why I'm saying that CWs AREN'T useless, because they still do some good burst damage. However, the issue is that they are ALSO easily focused, which negates a large portion of their threat. If a CW is killed before they can be as effective as any other class, that's a potential issue. And yes, in parties who know anything about basic PvP, they are focused fast. This, combined with some of the other points I've made, is why CWs as they are now would benefit from some adjustment. No other class that does similar burst damage or CC to CWs can be killed nearly as fast. I don't believe CWs should be turned into tanks, but they should be sufficiently compensated (in some way) for their squishiness.
Feel free to disagree. Or to keep misrepresenting my arguments and formulating yours based on what is largely PUG-limited PvP where it's more difficult to assess class balance given the huge range in gear, experience, and builds. Like I've said, throw Sobek and Alt in a PUG match, and they will seem crazy OP. Throw them in an experienced, competitive premade (where everything is much more equal), and their class weaknesses will become a lot clearer.
EDIT: If you ever start doing organized premades, you'll soon learn that having a CW on your team is considered a "comp disadvantage" by all experienced players versus a team that isn't bringing one. There's a reason for that.
Have you not seen the cooldown rate of Constricting Arrow? a cooldown rate of 11.6 seconds(and that's putting on my recovery set, gimping damage and armor pen by the way) is not as good as my CWs(using HV/Magelord hybrid, for 3.7k recovery) cooldown rates. I throw in chill strike(8.2), entangling force(10.1), repel(6.9), icy rays(12.6), steal time(13.9), even shard(12.6), and I have a rotation of multiple powers meant to control AND dish out damage, versus one power that does small damage once, and interrupts the target 3 times(once every 3 seconds). Mind you, all of the CWs powers are also superior damaging too.
And what gametype is pvp anyway? 1v1 happens, but when youre being attacked by multiple opponents, which one has the better chance?(as far as cc goes. the HR does make up for this with better tankiness, escape abilities, but are they not BETTER CLOTHED FIGHTERS?).
This works both ways, actually. Ive defeated and been defeated by CWs on my HR(equally). And vice versa as my CW.
Thing is, until they make PvP function differently than PvE , this is relevant. You make Rangers inferior to CWs in range dps, and their one good thing over CWs is null and void, and people will choose CW over HR in PvE AND PvP.
Umm no. You see, unlike CWs, other classes are tanky enough to hold ground. They can then counter it with calling let's say....another GWF. The opponent focuses on the CW. You die. They 2v1 your teammates. He dies...but much more slowly because he isn't a fragile CW. They score 10-15 points. Repeat process.
I can see you don't play against elite TRs. The elite TRs cycle through stealth and ITC. You also don't play with 40k GWF who stack HP, regen, defense and a little artifact called Emblem.
First of all, good luck trying to do that against elite GWF, HR, TR. They are able to promptly hunt you down. If the CW does manage to kite far away, they simply go back to the node and 2v1 your teammate. If you come back, they will harass you until you leave again so they can 2v1 your teammate.
I think you are talking about PUG PVP. Now if you want to have a discussion about PUG PVP being the staple for PVP balances, that is another discussion we can have. I want to first establish that at high end PVP, CW is a liability. Then we can jump onto that topic (ie: whether we should look at high end pvp or pug pvp as the staple of class balance)
Lore does not justify class imbalance. If you have another suggestion to balance CW at high end PVP, I'd love to hear it (there are other ways).
However, this is an MMO game first, DDO license second. Game balance is a priority over lore.
No. And that is the problem. This is a very small comp (5 players) with a relatively large amount of nodes needed to contest (3). The fact that the CW is unable to go to 66% of the nodes without being at a huge disadvantage is a game imbalance. The fact that the CW is so squishy that it can be focused down easily so that the enemy has a numbers advantage is a game imbalance.
Like I said, making 20vs20 the norm is another solution (not necessarily the best one or the one I am demanding).
With the right passive setup I can get my CA down to 5.6 seconds and I have 783 recovery.
Im not going to repeat what I posted, as you clearly do not read. Saying something IS useless is the same as saying that, and I quote "having a CW on your team is considered a "comp disadvantage" by all experienced players versus a team that isn't bringing one."
My previous quotes will still stand as well. Youre "balance" doesn't also denote differing levels of gameplay experience.
I for a fact do believe that my GWF will be trashed by Sobek(really, what are you reading, as youre obviously not reading here), EVEN IF MY GWF HAD EQUAL GEARSCORE TO SOBEK. He is a more experienced player. Ive also beaten GWFs OF MY SAME GS(once again, what are you reading if you didn't hear that already?).
Once again, never said against boosting their damage. I was completely fine in the past when they were glass cannon, 1 hitting machines(once again, I think youre not reading some(seeing as I have stated exactly this), if any at all, arguments in the thread). Ive had to state this several times now, and IM the one not reading?!
And ive also stated, asking: what are you high end pvp teammates doing?(once again, back to your lack of reading past posts) Are they twiddling their thumbs, letting you die? Where's the teamwork in letting your support classes get targeted and die?(CAN NOT believe ive had to explain this simple statement many times already)
Feel free to disagree. Or to keep misunderstanding my arguments and formulating yours based on what is largely premade, high end pvp, where everybody's either running in money bought gear, copying peoples' builds(instead of thinking for yourself), and running pugstomp groups, where its difficult to also assess balance, given how easy it is for a player like Sobek to school a mediocre player like me.
P.S. If you ever decide not to play with your pvp guild, running r10s, BiS gear, Legendary Artifact, PvP potions, Perfect Soulforged games, youll soon learn that, although it is hard for CWs, its hard for everyone down here in the trenches, and my best games have been with pugs who understand the basic "melees contest nodes and protect squishies" instead of "we ONLY care about 1v1 situations in NODE CAPPING PVP". Theres a reason words like "kiting", "tanking", "target prioritization", is used in any and all mmo's.
Actually, NO. You know this is not possible. My HR has 1400 recovery(without recovery set), and my CA cooldown IS NOT that low.
Perfectly possible. See macjae's post. Full combat specced and with the correct rotation I can also have dual thorn wards up on a node.
I think you forget that Stormstep needs a Daily to hit first, BEFORE lowering power cooldowns. And Agile Hunter not only requires I go melee path, but also reduce my encounters by 1 second PER MELEE ENCOUNTER I USE. If youre going back to your versatility, that goes back to reducing them by 3 seconds each, by slotting 3 melee powers. Im pretty sure the CW using his ROTATION OF CONSTANT DAMAGE, LOW COOLDOWN POWERS is still superior to that.
I almost have no idea what to say about this... Youre arguing that an HR remove its only useful cc against a CWs onslaught of consistent, better at stunning/freezing/proning, just because the CW can do it better? thanks for arguing on the HR side, cuz this statement is quite bad.
Im sorry that you ALWAYS get beat in that scenario. Not my fault others don't.
Im pretty sure powers act the very same in both PvE AND PvP. If anything, going by your argument, HR abilities are actually less useful in PvP, due to how useless they end up being. Whats Boar Hide ability if TRs/HRs/CWs/DCs/GFs/GWFs can ping for DoTs to negate that in no time? How useful is Aimed Shot when anyone staring down it knows what to do(anything and everything disrupts it)? Whats Split Shot, when at best theres a few targets to hit(not to mention its getting a drastic damage reduction in mod 3). Whats Fox's Shift when, although its damage gets boosted, now hits half as much as it used to(I remember TRs Lashing Blade got cut like this, wonder how many complained?
AGAIN, your GWF will be destroyed by Sobek BECAUSE not everything is equal; even if you have the SAME GS, you lack equal skill and a decent PvP spec. If you were reading, I wasn't discussing GS (that's not a good assessment of someone's gear set up, skill, or build).
My "balance" is in terms of people with equal skill, gear, etc. It doesn't have to be high-end PvP (that's just where class balance is easiest to identify in-game). It can also be between players who both have little (but equal) experience, gear, etc. The point is that class balance should be determined when all else is equal. Obviously.
I've already explained why, as a CW, you can't rely on your teammates to always save you. It's pretty obvious. If you could, CWs would rarely ever die. Feel free to also discuss this in-game with people like Sobek.
As a sidenote, I don't only run in premades or BiS gear, etc. I solo-queue plenty. In addition, I didn't buy my BiS gear with money, we're the ones who create the builds you copy, and we don't run premades to pugstomp (we run them to run into other premades or we organize them with other guilds. There's nothing more boring than pugstomping).
I think it's clear from all your arguments between you and others in this forum that your knowledge about this game (and particularly CWs and HRs) is pretty limited compared to that of others.
Thing is, that's a ROTATION. Many things you have to do in an order to get similar results. The complaint was about that single power (CA) versus a CWs rotation.