If that GF doesn't know, what the class can do, how can he be considered one of the best? Bull rush, frontline surge, lunging strike 0815 cheese build? Spare me this bs, please. I can now heal for up to 90k in pve, still without a vorpal if that is not at least 35k in pvp then you can have my left <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, to be honest.
Cheers, you One of the best.
Yes in PVE Fighters recovery is INSANE but you have to remember in PVP you have a healing depression and you hit a bit less since you are hitting a player with tenacity and DR in them.
So i can assure you, Fighters recovery is a garbage Daily in PVP
Try it and let me know how it works
0
silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2014
Ok From an Outside Perspective... Heres what I see as a CW, and the reason I see you get neglected in PvE.
We'll forget the fact there's few if any boss mobs that really need to be tanked. Most of them just throw stuff at you and never bother to really melee you. That's problem one, but that's probably not going away anytime soon.
One thing there is in these dungeons that is a MAJOR problem for GFs, and I see it constantly as a CW.
Its MASS MOB AGRO control.
What is generally going to happen the minute a CW comes in? (ok a good one).
We're generally going to drop a Singularity to pull all the mobs in a group. (We generally do that for GWFs when we're running the CWF meta).
OR
We're going to expect you to charge in and grab all their attention. We expect you to be able to hold that group of Mobs on you... after all that's your purpose. Doesn't matter whether you can do damage or not really, ONLY that you can keep them on you.
The Spellstorms are going to pull up at that point and unleash a Steal Time and send in Shards (the big boulder thing) or a Sudden Storm (think Lightning Bolt spell) which is going to rip through that crowd. MoFs will land a bunch of DoTs and then launch their Big boulders which expode and prone the mobs.
Once you guys get more than 8 mobs on you, our spells tend to start pealing off more and more mobs the more we nuke. So pretty soon you've got a good 6-8 mobs on you... and the rest are all on us. Yeah you're in a big pile, we're running for our lives and trying to deal with the ones we just pealed off you.
AND... you have no way to taunt or agro those mobs BACK to you and turn them back on you. This is a serious need from us as CWs from YOU as a GF.
Once you lose them, you guys can't get them back.
And... if we use singularity to stack them up on you, they tend to ignore you anyway and come straight for us.
So we need you to be able to...... not only grab them all the first time around... but ALSO be able to peal them back off of us once we peal them off of you. Which you're not going to be able to stop. You currently lack the ability to take BACK that agro you're going to lose to us throughout the fight.
So from our perspective... this is a serious need for the GF.
Your value in a party would greatly increase if this would happen.
We need you to be the protector class, the more you can keep them off us, the more we can focus on them.
Currently we need a pair of GWFs to do this. It would be nice to be able to count on GFs in these shoes.
I was one of the ones that said GF do not really have agro issues, too, but I also recognize a common scenario regarding crowds of mobs.
If a dev said no to a target cap increase on Enforced Threat I would offer this as a half way point:
Enforced Threat should prioritize mobs that are not currently focused on the GF.
I think currently it is either random or proximity based where if you have 20 mobs in enforced threat and 15 are chasing the GF and 5 are chasing the CW, the 15 are probably going to get 3/4s of the Enforced Threat which isn't really what the GF wanted.
You can play your way out of that as a GF. What I do is move away from the CW and then quickly lunge toward them when Enforced Threat is up. At that moment I leave behind the ones I have and for a brief second you can Enforce Threat and actually hit the ones that arn't on you. After that Threatening Rush and Enhanced Mark do a lot to get the situation back under control.
But, if Enforced Threat prioritized mobs that weren't focusing the GF that would make it a little easier to be a GF that is for sure.
To be more precise
-CON gives the GF HP (same for all classes) and Action Point gain.
-DEX gives the GF Deflect (same for all classes) and a Resistance Ignored bonus.
I just wish STR (or any other ability score) would give us a critical chance bonus.
Yes in PVE Fighters recovery is INSANE but you have to remember in PVP you have a healing depression and you hit a bit less since you are hitting a player with tenacity and DR in them.
So i can assure you, Fighters recovery is a garbage Daily in PVP
Try it and let me know how it works
I will agree if Fighters Recovery gave CC immunity the GF would be far better. As soon as people see the glowing green sploosh animation on me they stun, prone, slow, repel me away and within seconds I healed 1 hit worth and my AP is gone!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I will agree if Fighters Recovery gave CC immunity the GF would be far better. As soon as people see the glowing green sploosh animation on me they stun, prone, slow, repel me away and within seconds I healed 1 hit worth and my AP is gone!
How about if during Villain's Menance you could not be interuppted during the animation?
Also a quality of life change on Flourish: when wielding a shield the attack and stun should be one of those tiny 3' foot AE.
This isn't aimed at DPS, but rather making the stun a more reliable interrupt in packs of mobs. Currently flourish requires you to click on exactly what you want to stun. When your a halfing AE taunting tank surrounded by a pack of whatnots filling up your screen, that is surprisingly difficult, and what you get is a Flourish with a fair bit of misfires. A short 3' AE would guarantee that if you were in the ballpark you are good.
Hoping it will be akin to popping Block and being able to move around and receive healing while still having the 2 options for alternate atwills, kind of like DC Divinity.
Ofc, the shield bash guard meter restore will be abused if it stays, and it looks like someone cares enough to change this mechanic.
It's not only GWF's and their Prey that can thank Mr Gentlemancrush.
Ok From an Outside Perspective... Heres what I see as a CW, and the reason I see you get neglected in PvE.
One thing there is in these dungeons that is a MAJOR problem for GFs, and I see it constantly as a CW.
Its MASS MOB AGRO control.
We're going to expect you to charge in and grab all their attention. We expect you to be able to hold that group of Mobs on you... after all that's your purpose. Doesn't matter whether you can do damage or not really, ONLY that you can keep them on you.
AND... you have no way to taunt or agro those mobs BACK to you and turn them back on you. This is a serious need from us as CWs from YOU as a GF.
Once you lose them, you guys can't get them back.
. You currently lack the ability to take BACK that agro you're going to lose to us throughout the fight.
So from our perspective... this is a serious need for the GF.
Your value in a party would greatly increase if this would happen.
We need you to be the protector class, the more you can keep them off us, the more we can focus on them.
Currently we need a pair of GWFs to do this. It would be nice to be able to count on GFs in these shoes.
^^^^
......?.......??
Are you for real???Really?You think that the Gf problem is that he can't take more than 8 adds ,and if he could then he would be helpfull?
GWF got buffed even harder as if they needed it, HRs are unkillable, GF received nada, zip, ziltch, nothing....
GWFs are getting a damage nerf, alot of self healing nerf, roar will be nerfed so that will change alot of the class (itll still be strong no doubt)
HRs are getting their 4/4 set nerfed which was a large part why they are the way they are.
To the question: "Will GFs get some love this summer?"
My Answer: Probably not.
Why? Well it seems to me that Module 4 was pushed on Cryptic due to new D&D rules coming out, I mean they announced Mod 4 before Mod 3 was even live... My guess is they have limited resources working on fixing big issues on LIVE atm with a large portion of the DEV team looking at mod 4 changes - which I am guessing will be BIG.
My suggestion to you: This, BTW is coming from a long time GF player myself, First id wait to see how these changes affect your class, Making GWF/HR worse makes all classes a little better, and the damage nerf to GWFs and self healing nerf to HRs may make GFs one of the best 1v1 node holders again (MAYBE).
Second, wait to see how the black ice gear affects GFs. GFs have never had alot of self healing in PVP so the Purified weapons AND gear could provide a level of tankiness never before seen for the class. Again - COULD make a good node holder who knows.
In my opinion, when Cryptic "fixes" stuff they overdue it, so I wouldnt be surprised AT ALL if they over buffed GFs. Which is why I consider atleast keeping my GF up to speed with Mod 3 through Module 4 to see what lay in wait.
^^^^
......?.......??
Are you for real???Really?You think that the Gf problem is that he can't take more than 8 adds ,and if he could then he would be helpfull?
HE WOULD DIE IN 6 SECONDS!!!
lol.....
Errm... yes actually I did know about that...
.....I was hoping they'd fix that part too, yeah about that shield issue...
As that could be a slight issue too... (yes I'm understating for humor)
I was happy to hear specifically about what the Devs were addressing with the GF class.
Aggro generation for me was easy at 9k power in pve but since the module is more pvp based I have changed my spec reducing my pve bonus dmg by about 20% (a mix of power and 4 less str stat points) and I can say I have to work a bit harder atm with this loss of dmg. Yet in pvp my survivability has increased going for con and dex, no power boons(375 less power) and getting madness(used in conjunction with greater plague fire enchant) in stead of endless thirst.
Prior to this change I would be able to use villians menace on a group of mobs and heal myself to full from 1k hp and any of my aoe abilities would give my 15k+ plus hp back and keep full aggro at all times except when grouping with good cws.
Atm I have to rely on block a lot more to save myself and in kessel's retreat that gets blown away in a second due to the fact that black ice damage does another tick of damage to the block meter on top of the regular damage they do already. To be viable in pve and pvp while a conq spec is something not feasible with how I use to manage pve on a heavy life steal and high power build. Until block is fixed my current spec will never match my pve spec in terms of aggro and survivability in a dungeon(Epic DV, VT, MC) since most groups now run without a cleric with a cleric I'm pretty safe.
For the GF i think that a lot of use struggle with survival in a group with mobs. This is even worse in IWD where your shield gets eaten in two/three hits. This is because the BI damage counts as a separate source of damage. This makes tanking in medium encounters a real chalenge.
For the upcoming rework i have a few ideas about that can improve our power/role. Imo in NW we are not realy tanks, most GF in T2+ dungeons use a supportive set-up. Thats a good way to go i think. Give us the ability to lead our team, by protecting them and keeping all the bad guys on us. That gives us a real problem, we cant survive that. There are some GF that can have a lot of damage and still survive but for the most thats really hard.
I think those changes could help us.
1) Rework of our tab: give us a ability like the GWF or DC and call it Iron Will. What this does is making you more tank. As iron gets beaten it will get harder, so will that tank. With more hits that meter will build, gain ranks and give us more resistance and maybe a HoT effect. With the use of encounters that meter will go down. That way you have to manage that meter while still having to work to hold the aggro.
2) With our powers we could use some improvements:
Griffons Wrath should have autotargeting, so we do not miss half our hits at best. Then it can be used as a interupt.
Anvil of doom, i think it should prone. It can give it some more utility outside of doing damage and it suits that power perfect.
I can imagine that getting hit by a sword on the head will knock you on your knees
Villains Menace: this should just work faster. I like that power but the animation is long, sometimes i need to try it a couple of times because i get interupted over and over again.
Terrifying Impact: this is a good power but needs a lot of positioning and works quite slow. Maybe it can be reworked to a cone? That would help a lot.
Knights Challenge: this power is nice but not rly usefull. Can we make it a hard taunt? So the attacker MUST attack you for the duration of that power. Could be fun of very usefull in pvp, force that GWF to attack you to protect your CW or DC.
3) Our shield is our defining point and most times its not usefull. With a lot of mobs, in pvp agains a hard/fast hitting opponent it breaks in seconds. Like the other fighter can sprint for a time, can we maybe hold our shield up? Stamina or Guard will decrease so you have to be carefull but it would not break instant. That would be a improvement.
Feats, they need a lot of improvement also i think.
One think that makes me wonder is the FS, why does a GWF hit that three times as hard as we can? This is not a cry for a nerf, i want to find a solution. Why not make it a feat? A feat that improves/empowers our shield abilities with a number or maybe link it to the AC of our shield? GWF dont have it so we only would get the benefit.
Can we also convert some of that defence in a more offensive stat? Most GF have a lot and its not usefull but i can imagine that a ironclad warrior has some advantages.
How about removing the damage from villains menace and combining it to Fighters Recovery! Fixed...
Why removing it? I had the idea too that combining Villain's Menace with Fighter's Recovery would give the Guardian Fighter at least a superb Daily power, if the duration would become a bit longer and it all gets a small Damage Resistance buff of 15%. Sounds crazy? But it would still be a wannabe Unstoppable and not as fast ready as the latter and we are speaking here of a Daily power.
The Mark power could be changed in a more serious manner, it could be some kind of Threat Generation power for PvP also. How? First of all, the applying animation should be a bit faster, then the Damage Resistance debuff enhanced to 15% and there should be a 30% chance for the marked targets that their attacks miss (except against the marking Guardian Fighter) and a 20% chance for their victims to deflect their attacks (stacking on their initial chance to deflect; this should also apply for the marking Guardian Fighter) and the marking Guardian Fighter should be more visible to the marked target.
To summarise, Mark power changes:
faster animation
30% chance to miss with an attack to the marked target (except against marking Guardian Fighter)
20% stacking chance to have deflected attacks to the marked target (no exception)
15% Damage Resistance debuff to the marked target.
marking Guardian Fighter gets signalled to the marked target
Now, the Guardian Fighter needs better means to survive any enemy who tries to kill him to get rid of such a Mark...
One thing there is in these dungeons that is a MAJOR problem for GFs, and I see it constantly as a CW.
Its MASS MOB AGRO control.
What is generally going to happen the minute a CW comes in? (ok a good one).
We're generally going to drop a Singularity to pull all the mobs in a group. (We generally do that for GWFs when we're running the CWF meta).
OR
We're going to expect you to charge in and grab all their attention. We expect you to be able to hold that group of Mobs on you... after all that's your purpose. Doesn't matter whether you can do damage or not really, ONLY that you can keep them on you.
The Spellstorms are going to pull up at that point and unleash a Steal Time and send in Shards (the big boulder thing) or a Sudden Storm (think Lightning Bolt spell) which is going to rip through that crowd. MoFs will land a bunch of DoTs and then launch their Big boulders which expode and prone the mobs.
Once you guys get more than 8 mobs on you, our spells tend to start pealing off more and more mobs the more we nuke. So pretty soon you've got a good 6-8 mobs on you... and the rest are all on us. Yeah you're in a big pile, we're running for our lives and trying to deal with the ones we just pealed off you.
AND... you have no way to taunt or agro those mobs BACK to you and turn them back on you. This is a serious need from us as CWs from YOU as a GF.
Once you lose them, you guys can't get them back.
And... if we use singularity to stack them up on you, they tend to ignore you anyway and come straight for us.
So we need you to be able to...... not only grab them all the first time around... but ALSO be able to peal them back off of us once we peal them off of you. Which you're not going to be able to stop. You currently lack the ability to take BACK that agro you're going to lose to us throughout the fight.
So from our perspective... this is a serious need for the GF.
Your value in a party would greatly increase if this would happen.
This is exactly what I mean when I talk about DPS specced GFs trying to 'tank'. They give players the opinion that GFs can't 'tank'.
As a GF, I have absolutely no problems (except as stated previously with a few rare TRs) holding aggro in VT on at least a dozen NPCs.
Again, I have no problems holding aggro on mobs, bosses and bosses + adds even if there is an experienced CW with 17k+ GS.
So, unless you are a TR that is burst DPS built and very good at what you do, I have no concerns holding aggro off you, even if you are a CW...
The reason you have problems in parties with GFs holding mass aggro from you is because of one or both of two reasons: the GF is DPS specced and / or they don't know how to play their class properly.
As stated previously, if any player managed to pull aggro off a good GF, that doesn't mean they can't grab it back simply enough. The fact you believe they can't is again because of one or both of two reasons: the GF is DPS specced and / or they don't know how to play their class properly. All it takes is for the NPC(s) in question to be Marked and ET used. If absolutely necessary, because that is enough to grab them but not hold them, a little bit of DPS on them while Marked will keep them sticking to the GF like glue.
Another thing to consider is that it should not always be solely up to a GF to manage aggro. CWs have the largest facility of Crowd Control capabilities in the game. Perhaps if CWs (apart from the good experienced players) used more CC than just "Singularity" then adds wouldn't be such a large issue. I've had the pleasure of knowing many good CWs that are expert Crowd Controllers. Their contribution to the party makes all content easy and simple. The fact that many players are simply too focused purely on DPS is the reason there are these types of misconceptions.
Additionally, players often fail to realise that GFs may require the time from players to be the ones to pull, Mark and deal a little bit of damage to targets. If DPS understood this more and stopped being stupid and impatient enough to try jumping in first and pulling then all fights would go a lot more smoothly. This does not take long and i can usually easily pull, Mark and damage a mob of 6 NPCs in 3-5 seconds. That isn't that long to wait...
My suggestion to you Silverquick is to party with a real GF tank for a change rather than some try-hard squishy DPS Conqueror specced GF that doesn't know how to play his class and perhaps consider your role in the party as being something more than simply DPS with "Singularity" thrown in.
For the GF i think that a lot of use struggle with survival in a group with mobs. This is even worse in IWD where your shield gets eaten in two/three hits. This is because the BI damage counts as a separate source of damage. This makes tanking in medium encounters a real chalenge.
For the upcoming rework i have a few ideas about that can improve our power/role. Imo in NW we are not realy tanks, most GF in T2+ dungeons use a supportive set-up. Thats a good way to go i think. Give us the ability to lead our team, by protecting them and keeping all the bad guys on us. That gives us a real problem, we cant survive that. There are some GF that can have a lot of damage and still survive but for the most thats really hard.
.......
Can we also convert some of that defence in a more offensive stat? Most GF have a lot and its not usefull but i can imagine that a ironclad warrior has some advantages.
Romon, the reason GFs sometimes struggle is not a problem with the GF class necessarily, but with how the players are obviously using it. There are a lot of GFs that do not have Armor Specialization specced. As this feat is not indicated on the character sheet, this causes a lot of players to believe that their Damage Resistance (DR) of 45% without it, is comparable with that of a player that has specced into it with a similarly listed 45% DR. When a GF blocks, the damage their Block takes is diminished by their DR first. Hence, in the previous example, the extra 6.75% DR does make a large amount of difference, particularly when the GF also takes boons, feats and stats (i.e. from artifacts) that increase, assist or benefit guarding / blocking.
Currently, GFs already have the ability to protect their 'team'. Please refer to such Encounter Powers as Knight's Valor (KV) and Into the Fray (ItF) and Feats such as Daunting Challenge and Iron Guard. I mean seriously, what more do you want than KV which allows you to reduce party damage taken by 50% and increases threat at the same time?
As a 'tank' GF, I have no problems soloing medium Heroic Encounters in Icewind Dale. By far, the majority of the time i don't even need to use a potion or an artifact. This does have a bit to do with the quality of my gear but largely this is due to my build, the type of equipment set and my knowledge of the character's capabilities.
Why would you want to convert Defence to an offensive stat? The only reason you would even consider that is because you are a Conqueror spec focused on DPS. Am I wrong? The fact you believe Defence isn't "useful" really leaves me confused as to whether you actually understand the class. If you want to get rid of Defence because you don't find it "useful" then please be my guest. Don't expect me to be stupid enough to follow you.
It is responses like this that really leave me worried as you are quite obviously a Conqueror spec DPS GF with no solid understanding of the mechanics of the class yet you obviously believe and desire your opinion to be seriously considered by the Devs in any changes to the class. You are certainly entitled to have and express your opinion and I do not mean to denigrate your right to do so except where it may unduly negatively affect others due to its naivete and ignorance.
Are you for real???Really?You think that the Gf problem is that he can't take more than 8 adds ,and if he could then he would be helpfull?
HE WOULD DIE IN 6 SECONDS!!!
lol.....
The only reason a GF would die in 6 seconds from tanking more than 8 adds is because of one or both of two reasons: the GF is DPS specced and / or they don't know how to play their class properly.
Aggro generation for me was easy at 9k power in pve but since the module is more pvp based I have changed my spec reducing my pve bonus dmg by about 20% (a mix of power and 4 less str stat points) and I can say I have to work a bit harder atm with this loss of dmg. Yet in pvp my survivability has increased going for con and dex, no power boons(375 less power) and getting madness(used in conjunction with greater plague fire enchant) in stead of endless thirst.
Prior to this change I would be able to use villians menace on a group of mobs and heal myself to full from 1k hp and any of my aoe abilities would give my 15k+ plus hp back and keep full aggro at all times except when grouping with good cws.
Atm I have to rely on block a lot more to save myself and in kessel's retreat that gets blown away in a second due to the fact that black ice damage does another tick of damage to the block meter on top of the regular damage they do already. To be viable in pve and pvp while a conq spec is something not feasible with how I use to manage pve on a heavy life steal and high power build. Until block is fixed my current spec will never match my pve spec in terms of aggro and survivability in a dungeon(Epic DV, VT, MC) since most groups now run without a cleric with a cleric I'm pretty safe.
As you yourself have indicated, the problem is not with the class but with your spec. As a Conqueror spec it is obvious that you are not specced to take large amounts of damage. The fact you are a DPS spec trying to tank and having to use Block / Guard means your character is pretty much dead weight for the party i.e. you are now not doing the damage you have spent so much speccing into and gearing into (which is pretty much all your spec is even half decent for) and you don't have the survivability you would have otherwise with such low DPS. Essentially, your wasted points leave your character to be 'less' than what they otherwise would be under any other build.
The problem is not with Block as you have indicated, but how you have specced, geared and use it.
Your response is the exact typical response that is the reason why GFs are considered bad tanks and why Devs shouldn't take much notice - DPS GFs that can't tank because they aren't specced for it but complain because they can't when they try.
If you want a GF that can tank at end game content, spec for it. Why should you be special enough to be able to DPS and tank at the same time? You can't have your cake and eat it too... That is just needlessly greedy. So, either spec as a tank or leave the tanking for the GFs that are specced for it. It seems you are finally starting to realise that is what you need to do as you've already made changes in that direction, but if you want to do it properly then I suggest speccing out of Conqueror and not doing it by half and hoping you can still be a DPS.
I think if there were to nerf AoE lifesteal both GF and TR would have their relative position in PvE increased.
For example, in a popular MOBA lifesteal is full strength on single target abilities and 1/3rd strength on AoE abilities. It recognizes that AoE lifestealing can be completely OP when you start stacking hit targets. It is not that I think that a NW is a MOBA, but I do think the issue is the same. When you pull a hoard and every single AE attack returns you to full life then mitigating damage means less. On the other hand, it doesn't make any sense to tune the lifesteal stat around AoE attacks because there are situations where lifesteal needs to be relevant in single target encounters, and it is unfair to TRs to do so. Thus, a differential that changes how much lifesteal does on large AE encounters and how much it does on small numbers encounters seems prudent.
Personally I think the biggest issue about what I said is not that it is wrong, but at this point in the games life not being able to wade into a hoard and get massive AE lifesteal would cause a lot of people to be upset. Thus, I dunno, but I do know that it is pretty strong.
As you yourself have indicated, the problem is not with the class but with your spec. As a Conqueror spec it is obvious that you are not specced to take large amounts of damage. The fact you are a DPS spec trying to tank and having to use Block / Guard means your character is pretty much dead weight for the party i.e. you are now not doing the damage you have spent so much speccing into and gearing into (which is pretty much all your spec is even half decent for) and you don't have the survivability you would have otherwise with such low DPS. Essentially, your wasted points leave your character to be 'less' than what they otherwise would be under any other build.
The problem is not with Block as you have indicated, but how you have specced, geared and use it.
Your response is the exact typical response that is the reason why GFs are considered bad tanks and why Devs shouldn't take much notice - DPS GFs that can't tank because they aren't specced for it but complain because they can't when they try.
If you want a GF that can tank at end game content, spec for it. Why should you be special enough to be able to DPS and tank at the same time? You can't have your cake and eat it too... That is just needlessly greedy. So, either spec as a tank or leave the tanking for the GFs that are specced for it. It seems you are finally starting to realise that is what you need to do as you've already made changes in that direction, but if you want to do it properly then I suggest speccing out of Conqueror and not doing it by half and hoping you can still be a DPS.
This response is to clarify that this is a temporary spec to enjoy pvp and the limited pve.
The guardian fighters second paragon path (the dps path supposedly) not being used by the majority of gf's who want to be dps because it gives a lot less dps due to the base weapon damage not being anywhere near the gwfs(as the gwf paragon path gives them a stronger version that is not scaled properly). I was eager when this path was made and did some testing but found my damage was equal or worse in most cases. Currently this spec I am running will end once i have my complete black ice armor set and weapon set, This decision mostly to be viable as pvp is enjoyable so I have spec'd myself this way until Black Ice shaping 3. I have to also change two artifacts when that happens as well.
Being a dps off tank(technically my play style) is not easy currently as block is slow and has some fixes needed so that black ice damage is considered in the same hit. I know people with full tank spec whose block gets shredded just as fast as mine. And the major problem with my survivability in pve is due to not speccing with endless thirst(I have 10% lifesteal) which is a major reason why I never had trouble in pve was this alone. But in pvp using madness is a bonus until I can switch back to near where my old spec was. As I don't want to switch my gear constantly and move my enchants around burning the gold i have to nothing over time.
I know the conq spec is not meant to tank in the general term as using block all the time like the protector spec but when you spec dps you need lifesteal as your survival mechanic and cc immune(villians menace) so that you can continue to damage while fighting through prones and stuns etc. Once I get my artifacts refined properly and the rest of my black ice gear this problem is less so but the gf requires a damage change inside the conq path or else it cannot compete with a sentinel gwf which it should in theory as I was able to in mod 2.
...
Romon, the reason GFs sometimes struggle is not a problem with the GF class necessarily, but with how the players are obviously using it. There are a lot of GFs that do not have Armor Specialization specced. As this feat is not indicated on the character sheet, this causes a lot of players to believe that their Damage Resistance (DR) of 45% without it, is comparable with that of a player that has specced into it with a similarly listed 45% DR. When a GF blocks, the damage their Block takes is diminished by their DR first. Hence, in the previous example, the extra 6.75% DR does make a large amount of difference, particularly when the GF also takes boons, feats and stats (i.e. from artifacts) that increase, assist or benefit guarding / blocking.
...
As you yourself have indicated, the problem is not with the class but with your spec. As a Conqueror spec it is obvious that you are not specced to take large amounts of damage. The fact you are a DPS spec trying to tank and having to use Block / Guard means your character is pretty much dead weight for the party i.e. you are now not doing the damage you have spent so much speccing into and gearing into (which is pretty much all your spec is even half decent for) and you don't have the survivability you would have otherwise with such low DPS. Essentially, your wasted points leave your character to be 'less' than what they otherwise would be under any other build.
After many hours of testing and comparing, I can say for sure - besides your fine theorycraftig - that the block gets broken very (I would say: too) easily in the stronger versions of the heroic encounters in Icewind Dale (and not only there alone). I already have Armour Specialisation and Shield Defence (using a Tactician tree) and maybe the block lasts longer but this longer consists of mere seconds at best and is not able to give the Guardian Fighter any significant survivability enabling her to endure the attacks of many enemies at once.
Tanking is possible under harsh circumstances and with great risks at times making a Guardian Fighter easily somewhat unreliable. I managed to survive most of the time but the handling of this class is outright awful compared to the other classes I played so far and one of the important factors was that I had no lag or bucking of the picture most of the time.
Add one-handed hammers to the game for GFs to use.
Convert GF into Warden. All former GFs get a mandatory respec, including a re-roll of initial Ability Points.
Rebalance Iron Vanguard powers and feats specifically for GWF. Warden gets two unique new Paragons. Maybe Bloodwrath Guardian (though the transformation ability might be tricky) and Horned Champion or First Hunter.
I like that!
Or maybe give GF a Paladin Paragon, become a group support class that gives buffs and minor heals.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I want to say my opinion concerning the "tankiness" of defender/tactician against conqueror's.
There is not a difference at all.At all.or to be more exact there is Shield defence feat.Which gives 5AC.Do you know how much 5 Ac is worth?
.....2,5% Dr.That's **** right.A fully specced defender will have just 2,5% more DR.
Armor specialization is common for both paths.it is early feat and conq has access to it.
check the diefferences at nw calc.None serious differentation to be found.Concerning tankiness. http://nwcalc.com/gf
Conclusion:Who ever says that the problem of Gfs are player problems by using t and not class design problems
1)obviously does not know how AC works.
2)Obviously does not pug.he rolls runs with his overgeared guild and thinks that because his 2 13-15gs CW buddies clean the mobs at 0 time ,he think he "tanks"
3)obviously he has a second toon alt.By 90% i am sure it is a japanese manga looking two handed swordman style..How we call this/?...e....GWf!!
can some defender please post me a video of him tanking the adds at Hrimmir FH?Vt can come later.we can start from the easy ones:FH.
thanks.
All "squishy" conqs wait for the "tanky" defs to show us how to tank and how their super difference of 2,5%DR helps them.
^^^
I have met high geared defenders in pvp.They can kill nothing while they last 2-3 secs longer.great difference.
Comments
Yes in PVE Fighters recovery is INSANE but you have to remember in PVP you have a healing depression and you hit a bit less since you are hitting a player with tenacity and DR in them.
So i can assure you, Fighters recovery is a garbage Daily in PVP
Try it and let me know how it works
We'll forget the fact there's few if any boss mobs that really need to be tanked. Most of them just throw stuff at you and never bother to really melee you. That's problem one, but that's probably not going away anytime soon.
One thing there is in these dungeons that is a MAJOR problem for GFs, and I see it constantly as a CW.
Its MASS MOB AGRO control.
What is generally going to happen the minute a CW comes in? (ok a good one).
We're generally going to drop a Singularity to pull all the mobs in a group. (We generally do that for GWFs when we're running the CWF meta).
OR
We're going to expect you to charge in and grab all their attention. We expect you to be able to hold that group of Mobs on you... after all that's your purpose. Doesn't matter whether you can do damage or not really, ONLY that you can keep them on you.
The Spellstorms are going to pull up at that point and unleash a Steal Time and send in Shards (the big boulder thing) or a Sudden Storm (think Lightning Bolt spell) which is going to rip through that crowd. MoFs will land a bunch of DoTs and then launch their Big boulders which expode and prone the mobs.
Once you guys get more than 8 mobs on you, our spells tend to start pealing off more and more mobs the more we nuke. So pretty soon you've got a good 6-8 mobs on you... and the rest are all on us. Yeah you're in a big pile, we're running for our lives and trying to deal with the ones we just pealed off you.
AND... you have no way to taunt or agro those mobs BACK to you and turn them back on you. This is a serious need from us as CWs from YOU as a GF.
Once you lose them, you guys can't get them back.
And... if we use singularity to stack them up on you, they tend to ignore you anyway and come straight for us.
So we need you to be able to...... not only grab them all the first time around... but ALSO be able to peal them back off of us once we peal them off of you. Which you're not going to be able to stop. You currently lack the ability to take BACK that agro you're going to lose to us throughout the fight.
So from our perspective... this is a serious need for the GF.
Your value in a party would greatly increase if this would happen.
We need you to be the protector class, the more you can keep them off us, the more we can focus on them.
Currently we need a pair of GWFs to do this. It would be nice to be able to count on GFs in these shoes.
If a dev said no to a target cap increase on Enforced Threat I would offer this as a half way point:
Enforced Threat should prioritize mobs that are not currently focused on the GF.
I think currently it is either random or proximity based where if you have 20 mobs in enforced threat and 15 are chasing the GF and 5 are chasing the CW, the 15 are probably going to get 3/4s of the Enforced Threat which isn't really what the GF wanted.
You can play your way out of that as a GF. What I do is move away from the CW and then quickly lunge toward them when Enforced Threat is up. At that moment I leave behind the ones I have and for a brief second you can Enforce Threat and actually hit the ones that arn't on you. After that Threatening Rush and Enhanced Mark do a lot to get the situation back under control.
But, if Enforced Threat prioritized mobs that weren't focusing the GF that would make it a little easier to be a GF that is for sure.
To be more precise
-CON gives the GF HP (same for all classes) and Action Point gain.
-DEX gives the GF Deflect (same for all classes) and a Resistance Ignored bonus.
I just wish STR (or any other ability score) would give us a critical chance bonus.
I will agree if Fighters Recovery gave CC immunity the GF would be far better. As soon as people see the glowing green sploosh animation on me they stun, prone, slow, repel me away and within seconds I healed 1 hit worth and my AP is gone!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
How about if during Villain's Menance you could not be interuppted during the animation?
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
How about removing the damage from villains menace and combining it to Fighters Recovery! Fixed...
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
This isn't aimed at DPS, but rather making the stun a more reliable interrupt in packs of mobs. Currently flourish requires you to click on exactly what you want to stun. When your a halfing AE taunting tank surrounded by a pack of whatnots filling up your screen, that is surprisingly difficult, and what you get is a Flourish with a fair bit of misfires. A short 3' AE would guarantee that if you were in the ballpark you are good.
Hoping it will be akin to popping Block and being able to move around and receive healing while still having the 2 options for alternate atwills, kind of like DC Divinity.
Ofc, the shield bash guard meter restore will be abused if it stays, and it looks like someone cares enough to change this mechanic.
It's not only GWF's and their Prey that can thank Mr Gentlemancrush.
^^^^
......?.......??
Are you for real???Really?You think that the Gf problem is that he can't take more than 8 adds ,and if he could then he would be helpfull?
HE WOULD DIE IN 6 SECONDS!!!
lol.....
GWFs are getting a damage nerf, alot of self healing nerf, roar will be nerfed so that will change alot of the class (itll still be strong no doubt)
HRs are getting their 4/4 set nerfed which was a large part why they are the way they are.
To the question: "Will GFs get some love this summer?"
My Answer: Probably not.
Why? Well it seems to me that Module 4 was pushed on Cryptic due to new D&D rules coming out, I mean they announced Mod 4 before Mod 3 was even live... My guess is they have limited resources working on fixing big issues on LIVE atm with a large portion of the DEV team looking at mod 4 changes - which I am guessing will be BIG.
My suggestion to you: This, BTW is coming from a long time GF player myself, First id wait to see how these changes affect your class, Making GWF/HR worse makes all classes a little better, and the damage nerf to GWFs and self healing nerf to HRs may make GFs one of the best 1v1 node holders again (MAYBE).
Second, wait to see how the black ice gear affects GFs. GFs have never had alot of self healing in PVP so the Purified weapons AND gear could provide a level of tankiness never before seen for the class. Again - COULD make a good node holder who knows.
In my opinion, when Cryptic "fixes" stuff they overdue it, so I wouldnt be surprised AT ALL if they over buffed GFs. Which is why I consider atleast keeping my GF up to speed with Mod 3 through Module 4 to see what lay in wait.
Just sayin
Errm... yes actually I did know about that...
.....I was hoping they'd fix that part too, yeah about that shield issue...
As that could be a slight issue too... (yes I'm understating for humor)
I was happy to hear specifically about what the Devs were addressing with the GF class.
Prior to this change I would be able to use villians menace on a group of mobs and heal myself to full from 1k hp and any of my aoe abilities would give my 15k+ plus hp back and keep full aggro at all times except when grouping with good cws.
Atm I have to rely on block a lot more to save myself and in kessel's retreat that gets blown away in a second due to the fact that black ice damage does another tick of damage to the block meter on top of the regular damage they do already. To be viable in pve and pvp while a conq spec is something not feasible with how I use to manage pve on a heavy life steal and high power build. Until block is fixed my current spec will never match my pve spec in terms of aggro and survivability in a dungeon(Epic DV, VT, MC) since most groups now run without a cleric with a cleric I'm pretty safe.
For the upcoming rework i have a few ideas about that can improve our power/role. Imo in NW we are not realy tanks, most GF in T2+ dungeons use a supportive set-up. Thats a good way to go i think. Give us the ability to lead our team, by protecting them and keeping all the bad guys on us. That gives us a real problem, we cant survive that. There are some GF that can have a lot of damage and still survive but for the most thats really hard.
I think those changes could help us.
1) Rework of our tab: give us a ability like the GWF or DC and call it Iron Will. What this does is making you more tank. As iron gets beaten it will get harder, so will that tank. With more hits that meter will build, gain ranks and give us more resistance and maybe a HoT effect. With the use of encounters that meter will go down. That way you have to manage that meter while still having to work to hold the aggro.
2) With our powers we could use some improvements:
Griffons Wrath should have autotargeting, so we do not miss half our hits at best. Then it can be used as a interupt.
Anvil of doom, i think it should prone. It can give it some more utility outside of doing damage and it suits that power perfect.
I can imagine that getting hit by a sword on the head will knock you on your knees
Villains Menace: this should just work faster. I like that power but the animation is long, sometimes i need to try it a couple of times because i get interupted over and over again.
Terrifying Impact: this is a good power but needs a lot of positioning and works quite slow. Maybe it can be reworked to a cone? That would help a lot.
Knights Challenge: this power is nice but not rly usefull. Can we make it a hard taunt? So the attacker MUST attack you for the duration of that power. Could be fun of very usefull in pvp, force that GWF to attack you to protect your CW or DC.
3) Our shield is our defining point and most times its not usefull. With a lot of mobs, in pvp agains a hard/fast hitting opponent it breaks in seconds. Like the other fighter can sprint for a time, can we maybe hold our shield up? Stamina or Guard will decrease so you have to be carefull but it would not break instant. That would be a improvement.
Feats, they need a lot of improvement also i think.
One think that makes me wonder is the FS, why does a GWF hit that three times as hard as we can? This is not a cry for a nerf, i want to find a solution. Why not make it a feat? A feat that improves/empowers our shield abilities with a number or maybe link it to the AC of our shield? GWF dont have it so we only would get the benefit.
Can we also convert some of that defence in a more offensive stat? Most GF have a lot and its not usefull but i can imagine that a ironclad warrior has some advantages.
To summarise, Mark power changes:
faster animation
30% chance to miss with an attack to the marked target (except against marking Guardian Fighter)
20% stacking chance to have deflected attacks to the marked target (no exception)
15% Damage Resistance debuff to the marked target.
marking Guardian Fighter gets signalled to the marked target
Now, the Guardian Fighter needs better means to survive any enemy who tries to kill him to get rid of such a Mark...
This is exactly what I mean when I talk about DPS specced GFs trying to 'tank'. They give players the opinion that GFs can't 'tank'.
As a GF, I have absolutely no problems (except as stated previously with a few rare TRs) holding aggro in VT on at least a dozen NPCs.
Again, I have no problems holding aggro on mobs, bosses and bosses + adds even if there is an experienced CW with 17k+ GS.
So, unless you are a TR that is burst DPS built and very good at what you do, I have no concerns holding aggro off you, even if you are a CW...
The reason you have problems in parties with GFs holding mass aggro from you is because of one or both of two reasons: the GF is DPS specced and / or they don't know how to play their class properly.
As stated previously, if any player managed to pull aggro off a good GF, that doesn't mean they can't grab it back simply enough. The fact you believe they can't is again because of one or both of two reasons: the GF is DPS specced and / or they don't know how to play their class properly. All it takes is for the NPC(s) in question to be Marked and ET used. If absolutely necessary, because that is enough to grab them but not hold them, a little bit of DPS on them while Marked will keep them sticking to the GF like glue.
Another thing to consider is that it should not always be solely up to a GF to manage aggro. CWs have the largest facility of Crowd Control capabilities in the game. Perhaps if CWs (apart from the good experienced players) used more CC than just "Singularity" then adds wouldn't be such a large issue. I've had the pleasure of knowing many good CWs that are expert Crowd Controllers. Their contribution to the party makes all content easy and simple. The fact that many players are simply too focused purely on DPS is the reason there are these types of misconceptions.
Additionally, players often fail to realise that GFs may require the time from players to be the ones to pull, Mark and deal a little bit of damage to targets. If DPS understood this more and stopped being stupid and impatient enough to try jumping in first and pulling then all fights would go a lot more smoothly. This does not take long and i can usually easily pull, Mark and damage a mob of 6 NPCs in 3-5 seconds. That isn't that long to wait...
My suggestion to you Silverquick is to party with a real GF tank for a change rather than some try-hard squishy DPS Conqueror specced GF that doesn't know how to play his class and perhaps consider your role in the party as being something more than simply DPS with "Singularity" thrown in.
Romon, the reason GFs sometimes struggle is not a problem with the GF class necessarily, but with how the players are obviously using it. There are a lot of GFs that do not have Armor Specialization specced. As this feat is not indicated on the character sheet, this causes a lot of players to believe that their Damage Resistance (DR) of 45% without it, is comparable with that of a player that has specced into it with a similarly listed 45% DR. When a GF blocks, the damage their Block takes is diminished by their DR first. Hence, in the previous example, the extra 6.75% DR does make a large amount of difference, particularly when the GF also takes boons, feats and stats (i.e. from artifacts) that increase, assist or benefit guarding / blocking.
Currently, GFs already have the ability to protect their 'team'. Please refer to such Encounter Powers as Knight's Valor (KV) and Into the Fray (ItF) and Feats such as Daunting Challenge and Iron Guard. I mean seriously, what more do you want than KV which allows you to reduce party damage taken by 50% and increases threat at the same time?
As a 'tank' GF, I have no problems soloing medium Heroic Encounters in Icewind Dale. By far, the majority of the time i don't even need to use a potion or an artifact. This does have a bit to do with the quality of my gear but largely this is due to my build, the type of equipment set and my knowledge of the character's capabilities.
Why would you want to convert Defence to an offensive stat? The only reason you would even consider that is because you are a Conqueror spec focused on DPS. Am I wrong? The fact you believe Defence isn't "useful" really leaves me confused as to whether you actually understand the class. If you want to get rid of Defence because you don't find it "useful" then please be my guest. Don't expect me to be stupid enough to follow you.
It is responses like this that really leave me worried as you are quite obviously a Conqueror spec DPS GF with no solid understanding of the mechanics of the class yet you obviously believe and desire your opinion to be seriously considered by the Devs in any changes to the class. You are certainly entitled to have and express your opinion and I do not mean to denigrate your right to do so except where it may unduly negatively affect others due to its naivete and ignorance.
The only reason a GF would die in 6 seconds from tanking more than 8 adds is because of one or both of two reasons: the GF is DPS specced and / or they don't know how to play their class properly.
As you yourself have indicated, the problem is not with the class but with your spec. As a Conqueror spec it is obvious that you are not specced to take large amounts of damage. The fact you are a DPS spec trying to tank and having to use Block / Guard means your character is pretty much dead weight for the party i.e. you are now not doing the damage you have spent so much speccing into and gearing into (which is pretty much all your spec is even half decent for) and you don't have the survivability you would have otherwise with such low DPS. Essentially, your wasted points leave your character to be 'less' than what they otherwise would be under any other build.
The problem is not with Block as you have indicated, but how you have specced, geared and use it.
Your response is the exact typical response that is the reason why GFs are considered bad tanks and why Devs shouldn't take much notice - DPS GFs that can't tank because they aren't specced for it but complain because they can't when they try.
If you want a GF that can tank at end game content, spec for it. Why should you be special enough to be able to DPS and tank at the same time? You can't have your cake and eat it too... That is just needlessly greedy. So, either spec as a tank or leave the tanking for the GFs that are specced for it. It seems you are finally starting to realise that is what you need to do as you've already made changes in that direction, but if you want to do it properly then I suggest speccing out of Conqueror and not doing it by half and hoping you can still be a DPS.
For example, in a popular MOBA lifesteal is full strength on single target abilities and 1/3rd strength on AoE abilities. It recognizes that AoE lifestealing can be completely OP when you start stacking hit targets. It is not that I think that a NW is a MOBA, but I do think the issue is the same. When you pull a hoard and every single AE attack returns you to full life then mitigating damage means less. On the other hand, it doesn't make any sense to tune the lifesteal stat around AoE attacks because there are situations where lifesteal needs to be relevant in single target encounters, and it is unfair to TRs to do so. Thus, a differential that changes how much lifesteal does on large AE encounters and how much it does on small numbers encounters seems prudent.
Personally I think the biggest issue about what I said is not that it is wrong, but at this point in the games life not being able to wade into a hoard and get massive AE lifesteal would cause a lot of people to be upset. Thus, I dunno, but I do know that it is pretty strong.
This response is to clarify that this is a temporary spec to enjoy pvp and the limited pve.
The guardian fighters second paragon path (the dps path supposedly) not being used by the majority of gf's who want to be dps because it gives a lot less dps due to the base weapon damage not being anywhere near the gwfs(as the gwf paragon path gives them a stronger version that is not scaled properly). I was eager when this path was made and did some testing but found my damage was equal or worse in most cases. Currently this spec I am running will end once i have my complete black ice armor set and weapon set, This decision mostly to be viable as pvp is enjoyable so I have spec'd myself this way until Black Ice shaping 3. I have to also change two artifacts when that happens as well.
Being a dps off tank(technically my play style) is not easy currently as block is slow and has some fixes needed so that black ice damage is considered in the same hit. I know people with full tank spec whose block gets shredded just as fast as mine. And the major problem with my survivability in pve is due to not speccing with endless thirst(I have 10% lifesteal) which is a major reason why I never had trouble in pve was this alone. But in pvp using madness is a bonus until I can switch back to near where my old spec was. As I don't want to switch my gear constantly and move my enchants around burning the gold i have to nothing over time.
I know the conq spec is not meant to tank in the general term as using block all the time like the protector spec but when you spec dps you need lifesteal as your survival mechanic and cc immune(villians menace) so that you can continue to damage while fighting through prones and stuns etc. Once I get my artifacts refined properly and the rest of my black ice gear this problem is less so but the gf requires a damage change inside the conq path or else it cannot compete with a sentinel gwf which it should in theory as I was able to in mod 2.
After many hours of testing and comparing, I can say for sure - besides your fine theorycraftig - that the block gets broken very (I would say: too) easily in the stronger versions of the heroic encounters in Icewind Dale (and not only there alone). I already have Armour Specialisation and Shield Defence (using a Tactician tree) and maybe the block lasts longer but this longer consists of mere seconds at best and is not able to give the Guardian Fighter any significant survivability enabling her to endure the attacks of many enemies at once.
Tanking is possible under harsh circumstances and with great risks at times making a Guardian Fighter easily somewhat unreliable. I managed to survive most of the time but the handling of this class is outright awful compared to the other classes I played so far and one of the important factors was that I had no lag or bucking of the picture most of the time.
I like that!
Or maybe give GF a Paladin Paragon, become a group support class that gives buffs and minor heals.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
There is not a difference at all.At all.or to be more exact there is Shield defence feat.Which gives 5AC.Do you know how much 5 Ac is worth?
.....2,5% Dr.That's **** right.A fully specced defender will have just 2,5% more DR.
Armor specialization is common for both paths.it is early feat and conq has access to it.
check the diefferences at nw calc.None serious differentation to be found.Concerning tankiness.
http://nwcalc.com/gf
Conclusion:Who ever says that the problem of Gfs are player problems by using t and not class design problems
1)obviously does not know how AC works.
2)Obviously does not pug.he rolls runs with his overgeared guild and thinks that because his 2 13-15gs CW buddies clean the mobs at 0 time ,he think he "tanks"
3)obviously he has a second toon alt.By 90% i am sure it is a japanese manga looking two handed swordman style..How we call this/?...e....GWf!!
can some defender please post me a video of him tanking the adds at Hrimmir FH?Vt can come later.we can start from the easy ones:FH.
thanks.
All "squishy" conqs wait for the "tanky" defs to show us how to tank and how their super difference of 2,5%DR helps them.
^^^
I have met high geared defenders in pvp.They can kill nothing while they last 2-3 secs longer.great difference.