silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited March 2014
DCs was marginal DPS ever in pugs, in highend affairs they were worthless, they are now worthless all together as a dps option in COMPARISON with every other class.
DCs, could heal/buff/dodge around the nodes with a marginal pve build centered around at least 2.5k defense, this was a nice option to many of us pre patch, we didnt have to do alot of swapping, but felt we helped the team sustain nodes and defeat enemies, if nothing else, we could annoy the other team by holding nodes. If you center yourself around a complete tanky build, you still can skirt and annoy enemies, but the options to take anyone down 1 vs 1 has become limited, unless you are going against someone tremendously undergeared to you. You simply are not going to outheal anyones damage. Righteousness and HD and Temp HP reductions has reduced the role of a DC to basically thus:
A hybrid tanky buff DC. This is a very limiting role for a DC.
IF they did all this rework to semi nerf the GWF , all the same components crippled the DC. Some of you are going to go on here and state (I SAW some DC hold against 3-1 foreverZ!!!!!) Yes a DC can build to complete tankiness and still withstand alot of punishiment, but simply its less viable now then prepatch, as you can never heal yourself and you have reduced healing for your team. Simply put a DC is a broken function in PVP world right now and almost any other class brings more synergy and structure to the team. By the way GFs can now hold nodes longer and more efficiently then most DCs in comparable gear score range, this just lessens the value of the DC on a team even more.
Secondarily, I feel a lot of the pvp patch was aimed at High End players only, but the majority of people still play around the 12-14 k mark as myself, this isnt high end, I dont have r10s slotted in anything! Nor are all my artifacts even purple! I just started in November, the path between where Im at and where some others are at is millions upon millions of AD.
Yeah. Prepatch you could stack def, deflect, HP and regen on a set of blues, and this, coupled with your own (gimped) selfheals would allow you to be a PvE cleric that could still hold their own in PvP. Not run around murdering dudes, but hold points against 1, 2, or even more (depending on skill/gear levels) opponents long enough for your team to come kill them for you. If you actually built yourself exclusively for PvP, you could do this expertly. And combine this with buffs to the rest of your team and you'd actually feel useful.
The problem was that honestly, the stacking of regen was primarily there to counter the gimpy selfheals (and the fact that you'd frequently spent 70+% of the time CCd or dazed). We were essentially a healer class (the only healer class) scouring the game mechanics for other healing methods that would be more effective than our own core class concept (mitigation is always nice, but it won't take you back up from near death to healthy).
This meant that regen/def/deflect stacking was an equally viable strategy for literally ANYONE else, and the other classes were also able to dish out stacks of damage, so you ended up with the hilarious "oh let's just let him have the point..*sigh*" sent GWFs and so on. Who needs nigh-unkillable healbots when you can take nigh-unkillable killbots?
The response has certainly made sent IVs more killable (marginally) but in the most nonsensically misplaced fashion. 'Healing' was not in need of a nerf. Excessive healing was never a problem, especially excessive self healing. If anything, the lack of self healing WAS the problem. This was the whole reason we stacked regen. Now regen works less effectively, self heals are so ineffective as to be essentially not even a thing, and our already relatively gimpy damage is now even more laughable. We're reduced to comedy buffbots, for the most part, and if we have amazing gear and skill, we're "comedy buffbots that are hard to kill".
Mitigation and buffs/debuffs is pretty much all we have to bring, and all of those skills are flat (buffs, debuffs and mitigation don't scale with power or any ability score), so we might as well turn up naked and use a wooden spoon with a pair of fuzzy dice hanging from the end: everything of significance we'd contribute to the match would be effectively unchanged.
Hallowed Ground with Moon Touched specifically states it heals a percentage of the recipient's health, rather than a flat amount of health. Does this nerf in PVP still affect that? It will probably need a DC with a PVP buddy to test.
Hallowed Ground with Moon Touched specifically states it heals a percentage of the recipient's health, rather than a flat amount of health. Does this nerf in PVP still affect that? It will probably need a DC with a PVP buddy to test.
Yes it is affected and i posted the info at page 11. That time i was 1v1ing a sent DC from chocolate stand in preview after match. Now it is still apply and always will apply in live.
All percentage healing is nerfed. For example, Divine Armor, Blood Raven Skull, Healing Step etc...
such an ignorant response, anyway good luck to you my mistake
here's the other thing... i don't get why you have to see how I play?
It's like you are suggesting we are all bad players, which would be a false assumption...so I guess I do not feel the need to prove myself to you, someone who I do not know?
I find it rather insulting, especially from someone who isn't even a DC. I feel like a majority of your responses are also ignorant because you do not play the class there it is from your POV where you are basing "dc's are fine." Play 10 matches as a DC and then I will value your take on DC's, however, you can't say they are tanky just b/c you can't kill them. I have played many gwfs/gfs who still can't kill me... but I am not tanky by any means, that is just their low efficiency to kill me or not.
here's the other thing... i don't get why you have to see how I play?
It's like you are suggesting we are all bad players, which would be a false assumption...so I guess I do not feel the need to prove myself to you, someone who I do not know?
I find it rather insulting, especially from someone who isn't even a DC. I feel like a majority of your responses are also ignorant because you do not play the class there it is from your POV where you are basing "dc's are fine." Play 10 matches as a DC and then I will value your take on DC's, however, you can't say they are tanky just b/c you can't kill them. I have played many gwfs/gfs who still can't kill me... but I am not tanky by any means, that is just their low efficiency to kill me or not.
I dont see any ignorance in my post, I wasnt even the first nor last one to say that DC support in a good team makes alot of difference. You also might have misunderstood me, I did not mean nor intend to disrespect or ask you to prove yourself. I just saw that people say you are good so I just wanted to play in same team with you yet you responded in very disrespectful way. You might as well just say I dont play with bad people even tho you never went against me or with me.
Regarding DCs goodness in PVP, from what I have seen in my matches or youtube videos I find them to be very supportive and useful with the right team. Like 2 tanks 1 dc and any 2 other classes would be a strong team unlike a match I had earlier on my CW, we had 2 DCs and 2 CW 1 HR that was very bad setup no tanks and other team had 2 gwf 2 tr. So yeah there are some cases where DCs are useless but there are others where DC bring victory
Example, search youtube
Chocolate stand vs synergy pvp
That DC in chocolate stand made alot of difference whereever she went
Yes it is affected and i posted the info at page 11. That time i was 1v1ing a sent DC from chocolate stand in preview after match. Now it is still apply and always will apply in live.
All percentage healing is nerfed. For example, Divine Armor, Blood Raven Skull, Healing Step etc...
Many thanks, jazzfong. You've probably saved me a respec to test.
I have played many gwfs/gfs who still can't kill me... but I am not tanky by any means, that is just their low efficiency to kill me or not.
God forbid that other players should actually have to time their burst and CC to counter a healing class' sustain, right?
Not only is it a question of DC skill and gear vs. the enemy, it's a matter of how well teams support their DCs. Any good DC is going to look amazing if their team consistently peels enemies when the focus gets real.
And again, we're talking about BiS players here. If there's this much controversy within the dedicated PvP community, what kind effect do the devs imagine that this HD+Righteousness situation is having on the average/casual DC players?
I dont see any ignorance in my post, I wasnt even the first nor last one to say that DC support in a good team makes alot of difference. You also might have misunderstood me, I did not mean nor intend to disrespect or ask you to prove yourself. I just saw that people say you are good so I just wanted to play in same team with you yet you responded in very disrespectful way. You might as well just say I dont play with bad people even tho you never went against me or with me.
Regarding DCs goodness in PVP, from what I have seen in my matches or youtube videos I find them to be very supportive and useful with the right team. Like 2 tanks 1 dc and any 2 other classes would be a strong team unlike a match I had earlier on my CW, we had 2 DCs and 2 CW 1 HR that was very bad setup no tanks and other team had 2 gwf 2 tr. So yeah there are some cases where DCs are useless but there are others where DC bring victory
Example, search youtube
Chocolate stand vs synergy pvp
That DC in chocolate stand made alot of difference whereever she went
Video is recent
That is requiem. And she has already been here. Velyenna... as we said we are pigeon holed into a supporr role... and now struggle to 1v1. That is the key problem. Before we could 1v1 now we don't have a chance vs trs if they land 1 flurry against us.
The main concern is they took a key component of a dc's survival ie healing. Every other class maintains somewhat of the same survivability mechanics stealth,blocking, etc but dc's cannot sustain as long as they should for a class that has low dps. Imagine a gf without block... but wait they still have hard cc skills! We have slows and roots but the lack of healing and hard cc makes it very hard to win a 1v1
This is imbalance. And that is the main focus of this thread. I also played vs synergy two days ago. They had two gwfs two trs and a cw. We had rainbow without a gf. Their gwf could tank 2 dps and kill any of us 1v1 but we won 1000 to 983. That game would have been less close if not for the gwf. I could not 1v1 any of their members for longer than a minute because i couldn't heal... that is the problem.
Why can one class 1v2 when dc's can barely 1v1?
Example, search youtube
Chocolate stand vs synergy pvp
That DC in chocolate stand made alot of difference whereever she went
Video is recent
Yeah, I am that DC, although I'm not sure what video you're referring to. Pre-patch, my DC was incredibly viable and useful in competitive PvP. I assure you that certainly isn't the case now, and I've tried a lot of different things. Sure, I will be helpful in any game where I'm not being focused or where I out-gear/skill my opponent. I won't be nearly as useful as another DPS class in matches where this isn't the case. We're not saying that DCs do absolutely nothing in a match, but that their utility has been curtailed to a ridiculously unnecessary amount in a way that crushes their viability in even matches compared to another DPS/tank class.
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
Yeah, I am that DC, although I'm not sure what video you're referring to. Pre-patch, my DC was incredibly viable and useful in competitive PvP. I assure you that certainly isn't the case now, and I've tried a lot of different things. Sure, I will be helpful in any game where I'm not being focused or where I out-gear/skill my opponent. I won't be nearly as useful as another DPS class in matches where this isn't the case. We're not saying that DCs do absolutely nothing in a match, but that their utility has been curtailed to a ridiculously unnecessary amount in a way that crushes their viability in even matches compared to another DPS/tank class.
Agreed. Before the CC buff to wizards and arpen resistance removal from tenacity, DCs were somewhat more viable (on the test server). So far, I've not discovered a post-patch build as viable as the common pre-patch build.
I'm just really confused as to the role Cryptic expected the DCs to have in PvP.
As a healer? That now requires us to have all healing encounters and use large amounts of divinity to see non-negligeable heals on a target. In addition, if we're support, that means we will be mainly in 2v2 situations. However, at the moment, we have the worst survivability in 2v2 situations. We don't do damage, so we can't contribute to killing the enemy, we have no CC resist abilities in a healer role, few useful CC abilities (especially not if we're trying to fulfill the role of a healer), and we can barely heal ourselves; as I've previously mentioned, A DC will generally drop faster than an ally can clear an enemy (in situations where the players are matched).
As a debuff class? This means that we will also be in mainly 2v2 situations; with fewer heals, we will be focused down even faster. Not to mention, our debuff abilities are pretty mediocre. If this is our purpose, it makes far more sense to have a dedicated DPS/Tank on point instead of a easily downed DC that will have limited contributions in terms of clearing the point.
As a point holder? Our inability to effectively sustain ourselves for too long in many 1v1s means again that you might as well bring a more effective and dedicated point holder (i.e., tank class) or a DPS to clear the point.
sometimes I just sit there and exaltation/chain things in hopes my team can kill someone... I feel like I'm constantly getting carried
I pvp'd with my guild today on tr and dc
dc= 1000-680ish
tr=1000-50
....why?
tr can tank 2 ppl and kill while doing so. My dc couldn't even 1 v 1 a tr and would almost be instakilled if 3 ppl so much as looked at me from the enemy team. dc's are now just there to be there and my team completely ignores them until everyone else is dead b/c they simply do nothing in a large team fight
Don't know...i see them still tanky, and astral shield/ protections seem to help your team survive longer even with healing depression. The thing is, before patch may be it was more noticeable. I mean, player's HPs dropped faster, and with healing they recovered a lot, so may be the feeling was that you were their savior. Now it is not a recovery, but more like your team mates HPs drop more slowly. What i can say is that DCs seem to make a difference to me.
Can't say which improvements could be done. What i can tell for sure is that with tenacity, if they could heal more, a tank DC could be almost unkillable AND make his team almost unkillable. Something like "nobody dies". I think this is why devs wrote that it will take longer for them to come up with something for DCs.
Well, damage was indeed cut a lot. GWFs sents relied on crits to dish out damage. Crits now get a 20% DR + 20% crit resistance from tenacity. If not halved, crits got a good 40% reduction, roughly. Same for TRs, HRs, CWs.
It depends on what you mean with "as tanky as before". In module 2, a good tank DC could be unkillable 1v1, or even 2v1. Right now, i see many of them still tanking multiple enemies, which is not bad considering that, TRs apart, you need to outgear your opponents to be able to tank 2v1-3v1.
My feeling is that CWs and DCs need some buffs, but they must be very specific and well balanced. GFs too.
GWFs, TRs and HRs seem pretty much balanced right now. The above 3 classes are the ones left behind a bit.
If you built an unkillable DC, it was essentially a trolltank point-contester. You could hold your own against 1, 2 or possibly even 3 dudes for quite some time, but under no situations would you ever present a serious threat to those people. You traded damage output for survivability. On the offchance you were in a group that actually worked as a team, you could do all that AND support the team, something I'd say it about what you'd expect a 'leader' class to do.
Now you need to substantially outgear someone to even hold your own, which is pretty terrible, since you STILL don't represent any threat to your opponent. About all you can do is support the team (while you're alive), and to be honest, you could do that more effectively by being a damage class and actually killing dudes.
If you built an unkillable DC, it was essentially a trolltank point-contester. You could hold your own against 1, 2 or possibly even 3 dudes for quite some time, but under no situations would you ever present a serious threat to those people. You traded damage output for survivability. On the offchance you were in a group that actually worked as a team, you could do all that AND support the team, something I'd say it about what you'd expect a 'leader' class to do.
Now you need to substantially outgear someone to even hold your own, which is pretty terrible, since you STILL don't represent any threat to your opponent. About all you can do is support the team (while you're alive), and to be honest, you could do that more effectively by being a damage class and actually killing dudes.
for all those say dc's are fine... i just want to point out, you have never played a dc so you do not understand what it is like waiting to die
and our one ability to not die as quickly is taken away...
In pugs I can tank 4 people by kiting still, but it does nothing when my team dies to one tr....
Now you need to substantially outgear someone to even hold your own, which is pretty terrible, since you STILL don't represent any threat to your opponent. About all you can do is support the team (while you're alive), and to be honest, you could do that more effectively by being a damage class and actually killing dudes.
Can't say which improvements could be done. What i can tell for sure is that with tenacity, if they could heal more, a tank DC could be almost unkillable AND make his team almost unkillable. Something like "nobody dies". I think this is why devs wrote that it will take longer for them to come up with something for DCs.
In the matches I've played I'm already not far from that, if I'm not really focused by at least half of the enemy team, while, of course, providing a significant damage increase to the party via buffs and debuffs. Mitigation from astral shield and benefit of foresight reduces incoming damage a lot, while the divine shield still heals people for the little damage they take.
In the matches I've played I'm already not far from that, if I'm not really focused by at least half of the enemy team, while, of course, providing a significant damage increase to the party via buffs and debuffs. Mitigation from astral shield and benefit of foresight reduces incoming damage a lot, while the divine shield still heals people for the little damage they take.
In the matches I'm in... I see people get almost 1 shot by ice knife/shard in an AS...
tank DC's could never make his team unkillable... I remember pugs just getting cleared out quickly if I ever solo queued even with an AS and exaltation on them....
the only way I could ever win was backcapping and pray my team could 4 v 3 or something
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
In the matches I'm in... I see people get almost 1 shot by ice knife/shard in an AS...
Ice Knife hits for approx 6-10K on geared people.
Shardplosion hits for 5k-10K or so depending on spec/rotation. Shardslam for less.
Talking about crits here.
I can 1 shot people still with shard rotation, but they have to be squishy and ungeared. Then I hit even 22K IK. Even so, with most PvPers above 35K HP, these spells are way more tame than they used to be.
I got the numbers from ACT, from a few PM games against geared teams.
My personal experience as a low gs healing cleric (11k+ as i stripped all enchant except SF) from an unintended 2 half PMs vs EoA PM one hour ago is quite ok. My team was 3 pandamonium and 2 dulce while the opposite team had 4 EoA and 1 Grimm. We are quite competitve till both of us reached 400, then because of a small mistake their team wins us by 10 score, and the difference widens up little by little till we lost. However, both me and the EoA cleric (his name starts with Wixxxx, forgot dy lol) got a K/D ratio of 0-18 for me and 0-20+ for him. Despite we cant kill anyone, we can at least protect our cw and gwf to contest or kill for us.
With correct setup and feats, i managed to bring our highly-focused cw from 1% to 100% in 10 seconds. This show our healing power when maxed and indeed it was a good news to all healers!!! However, since the 4 EoAs bring in emblems, their solo heal power is greater than our cleric maximized heals. They cast emblem one by one and we are totally pissed!!! Merlyn the HR from EoA is the greatest sniper, while i was 1v1-ing him at either base either defending or contesting, the most i can survive is 5 sec, then i died (DC healer tank power is lower). The EoA GF interrupt me when i was supporting others at mid but it is not great threat to me, i just dodge away and heal again. The poor thing is i mistype screenshot command (without listing UI) if not i can post the score board as information for pvp clerics. Hope the other guys from EoAs got that screenshot, it is so hard to meet a specific team in pvp due to matchmaking system. And to the unknown Wixxxxxx cleric from EoA can you tell us your experience in pvp??
My personal experience as a low gs healing cleric (11k+ as i stripped all enchant except SF) from an unintended 2 half PMs vs EoA PM one hour ago is quite ok.
If both teams have a DC, it definitely works fine. In the same way that any horrible or OP class will balance each other out if there's one on each opposing teams. But in my experience, if say, your team didn't have a DC, the score would have been in your favour by a much greater extent.
(I can heal a player from 1%-100% is even less than 10 seconds! It just involves popping my Emblem, dropping a divine FF/Exaltation, a divine AS, a divine HW, and hoping their Waters/Emblem is off cooldown! :P)
I like to say is it not off that a GWF can heal themselves better then a cleric. What lore is this taken from that a warrior can heal themselves better then a healer can heal themselves. Yes okay so it was halved but there HP pool went higher due to the new gear. Since unstopable heals works on a percent basis even halving it allows them to do greater heals then a cleric can on themselves. I just fail to see the logic.
Our heals where nerfed theirs was buffed due to the HP increase in gear. I think we should give them an iWin button.
(I can heal a player from 1%-100% is even less than 10 seconds! It just involves popping my Emblem, dropping a divine FF/Exaltation, a divine AS, a divine HW, and hoping their Waters/Emblem is off cooldown! :P)
Sadly, a f2p player like me mostly don't have emblem. 2nd thing is if HW didnt have a cd of 3 sec, i can heal him to max in 5 sec (just joking as HW is a HoT that require some time to do full healing). And DC presence in field are usually ignored as we cant propose any threat to any people, with the exception of dio style debuffing head hunters.
I was mostly being sarcastic by pointing out that if I used every possible things at my disposal, get lucky with crits, etc., I can indeed heal a target that might not actually have that much HP to begin with (like a PUG CW).
I was mostly being sarcastic by pointing out that if I used every possible things at my disposal, get lucky with crits, etc., I can indeed heal a target that might not actually have that much HP to begin with (like a PUG CW).
He is a pvp cw, hp more than 30k. And i just locked his hp with div Ex, cast HW and div AS, HG then HW again. His hp full back after some dodging here and there. I have 4 pips of divinity, always save two pips for emergency.
Comments
DCs, could heal/buff/dodge around the nodes with a marginal pve build centered around at least 2.5k defense, this was a nice option to many of us pre patch, we didnt have to do alot of swapping, but felt we helped the team sustain nodes and defeat enemies, if nothing else, we could annoy the other team by holding nodes. If you center yourself around a complete tanky build, you still can skirt and annoy enemies, but the options to take anyone down 1 vs 1 has become limited, unless you are going against someone tremendously undergeared to you. You simply are not going to outheal anyones damage. Righteousness and HD and Temp HP reductions has reduced the role of a DC to basically thus:
A hybrid tanky buff DC. This is a very limiting role for a DC.
IF they did all this rework to semi nerf the GWF , all the same components crippled the DC. Some of you are going to go on here and state (I SAW some DC hold against 3-1 foreverZ!!!!!) Yes a DC can build to complete tankiness and still withstand alot of punishiment, but simply its less viable now then prepatch, as you can never heal yourself and you have reduced healing for your team. Simply put a DC is a broken function in PVP world right now and almost any other class brings more synergy and structure to the team. By the way GFs can now hold nodes longer and more efficiently then most DCs in comparable gear score range, this just lessens the value of the DC on a team even more.
Secondarily, I feel a lot of the pvp patch was aimed at High End players only, but the majority of people still play around the 12-14 k mark as myself, this isnt high end, I dont have r10s slotted in anything! Nor are all my artifacts even purple! I just started in November, the path between where Im at and where some others are at is millions upon millions of AD.
Silverkelt
The problem was that honestly, the stacking of regen was primarily there to counter the gimpy selfheals (and the fact that you'd frequently spent 70+% of the time CCd or dazed). We were essentially a healer class (the only healer class) scouring the game mechanics for other healing methods that would be more effective than our own core class concept (mitigation is always nice, but it won't take you back up from near death to healthy).
This meant that regen/def/deflect stacking was an equally viable strategy for literally ANYONE else, and the other classes were also able to dish out stacks of damage, so you ended up with the hilarious "oh let's just let him have the point..*sigh*" sent GWFs and so on. Who needs nigh-unkillable healbots when you can take nigh-unkillable killbots?
The response has certainly made sent IVs more killable (marginally) but in the most nonsensically misplaced fashion. 'Healing' was not in need of a nerf. Excessive healing was never a problem, especially excessive self healing. If anything, the lack of self healing WAS the problem. This was the whole reason we stacked regen. Now regen works less effectively, self heals are so ineffective as to be essentially not even a thing, and our already relatively gimpy damage is now even more laughable. We're reduced to comedy buffbots, for the most part, and if we have amazing gear and skill, we're "comedy buffbots that are hard to kill".
Mitigation and buffs/debuffs is pretty much all we have to bring, and all of those skills are flat (buffs, debuffs and mitigation don't scale with power or any ability score), so we might as well turn up naked and use a wooden spoon with a pair of fuzzy dice hanging from the end: everything of significance we'd contribute to the match would be effectively unchanged.
Yes it is affected and i posted the info at page 11. That time i was 1v1ing a sent DC from chocolate stand in preview after match. Now it is still apply and always will apply in live.
All percentage healing is nerfed. For example, Divine Armor, Blood Raven Skull, Healing Step etc...
here's the other thing... i don't get why you have to see how I play?
It's like you are suggesting we are all bad players, which would be a false assumption...so I guess I do not feel the need to prove myself to you, someone who I do not know?
I find it rather insulting, especially from someone who isn't even a DC. I feel like a majority of your responses are also ignorant because you do not play the class there it is from your POV where you are basing "dc's are fine." Play 10 matches as a DC and then I will value your take on DC's, however, you can't say they are tanky just b/c you can't kill them. I have played many gwfs/gfs who still can't kill me... but I am not tanky by any means, that is just their low efficiency to kill me or not.
I dont see any ignorance in my post, I wasnt even the first nor last one to say that DC support in a good team makes alot of difference. You also might have misunderstood me, I did not mean nor intend to disrespect or ask you to prove yourself. I just saw that people say you are good so I just wanted to play in same team with you yet you responded in very disrespectful way. You might as well just say I dont play with bad people even tho you never went against me or with me.
Regarding DCs goodness in PVP, from what I have seen in my matches or youtube videos I find them to be very supportive and useful with the right team. Like 2 tanks 1 dc and any 2 other classes would be a strong team unlike a match I had earlier on my CW, we had 2 DCs and 2 CW 1 HR that was very bad setup no tanks and other team had 2 gwf 2 tr. So yeah there are some cases where DCs are useless but there are others where DC bring victory
Example, search youtube
Chocolate stand vs synergy pvp
That DC in chocolate stand made alot of difference whereever she went
Video is recent
SENT IV GWF - PVP
Many thanks, jazzfong. You've probably saved me a respec to test.
God forbid that other players should actually have to time their burst and CC to counter a healing class' sustain, right?
Not only is it a question of DC skill and gear vs. the enemy, it's a matter of how well teams support their DCs. Any good DC is going to look amazing if their team consistently peels enemies when the focus gets real.
And again, we're talking about BiS players here. If there's this much controversy within the dedicated PvP community, what kind effect do the devs imagine that this HD+Righteousness situation is having on the average/casual DC players?
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
That is requiem. And she has already been here. Velyenna... as we said we are pigeon holed into a supporr role... and now struggle to 1v1. That is the key problem. Before we could 1v1 now we don't have a chance vs trs if they land 1 flurry against us.
The main concern is they took a key component of a dc's survival ie healing. Every other class maintains somewhat of the same survivability mechanics stealth,blocking, etc but dc's cannot sustain as long as they should for a class that has low dps. Imagine a gf without block... but wait they still have hard cc skills! We have slows and roots but the lack of healing and hard cc makes it very hard to win a 1v1
This is imbalance. And that is the main focus of this thread. I also played vs synergy two days ago. They had two gwfs two trs and a cw. We had rainbow without a gf. Their gwf could tank 2 dps and kill any of us 1v1 but we won 1000 to 983. That game would have been less close if not for the gwf. I could not 1v1 any of their members for longer than a minute because i couldn't heal... that is the problem.
Why can one class 1v2 when dc's can barely 1v1?
Yeah, I am that DC, although I'm not sure what video you're referring to. Pre-patch, my DC was incredibly viable and useful in competitive PvP. I assure you that certainly isn't the case now, and I've tried a lot of different things. Sure, I will be helpful in any game where I'm not being focused or where I out-gear/skill my opponent. I won't be nearly as useful as another DPS class in matches where this isn't the case. We're not saying that DCs do absolutely nothing in a match, but that their utility has been curtailed to a ridiculously unnecessary amount in a way that crushes their viability in even matches compared to another DPS/tank class.
Agreed. Before the CC buff to wizards and arpen resistance removal from tenacity, DCs were somewhat more viable (on the test server). So far, I've not discovered a post-patch build as viable as the common pre-patch build.
Iyon the Dark
As a healer? That now requires us to have all healing encounters and use large amounts of divinity to see non-negligeable heals on a target. In addition, if we're support, that means we will be mainly in 2v2 situations. However, at the moment, we have the worst survivability in 2v2 situations. We don't do damage, so we can't contribute to killing the enemy, we have no CC resist abilities in a healer role, few useful CC abilities (especially not if we're trying to fulfill the role of a healer), and we can barely heal ourselves; as I've previously mentioned, A DC will generally drop faster than an ally can clear an enemy (in situations where the players are matched).
As a debuff class? This means that we will also be in mainly 2v2 situations; with fewer heals, we will be focused down even faster. Not to mention, our debuff abilities are pretty mediocre. If this is our purpose, it makes far more sense to have a dedicated DPS/Tank on point instead of a easily downed DC that will have limited contributions in terms of clearing the point.
As a point holder? Our inability to effectively sustain ourselves for too long in many 1v1s means again that you might as well bring a more effective and dedicated point holder (i.e., tank class) or a DPS to clear the point.
I am pretty underwhelmed with the DC in PvP.
I pvp'd with my guild today on tr and dc
dc= 1000-680ish
tr=1000-50
....why?
tr can tank 2 ppl and kill while doing so. My dc couldn't even 1 v 1 a tr and would almost be instakilled if 3 ppl so much as looked at me from the enemy team. dc's are now just there to be there and my team completely ignores them until everyone else is dead b/c they simply do nothing in a large team fight
Can't say which improvements could be done. What i can tell for sure is that with tenacity, if they could heal more, a tank DC could be almost unkillable AND make his team almost unkillable. Something like "nobody dies". I think this is why devs wrote that it will take longer for them to come up with something for DCs.
It depends on what you mean with "as tanky as before". In module 2, a good tank DC could be unkillable 1v1, or even 2v1. Right now, i see many of them still tanking multiple enemies, which is not bad considering that, TRs apart, you need to outgear your opponents to be able to tank 2v1-3v1.
My feeling is that CWs and DCs need some buffs, but they must be very specific and well balanced. GFs too.
GWFs, TRs and HRs seem pretty much balanced right now. The above 3 classes are the ones left behind a bit.
If you built an unkillable DC, it was essentially a trolltank point-contester. You could hold your own against 1, 2 or possibly even 3 dudes for quite some time, but under no situations would you ever present a serious threat to those people. You traded damage output for survivability. On the offchance you were in a group that actually worked as a team, you could do all that AND support the team, something I'd say it about what you'd expect a 'leader' class to do.
Now you need to substantially outgear someone to even hold your own, which is pretty terrible, since you STILL don't represent any threat to your opponent. About all you can do is support the team (while you're alive), and to be honest, you could do that more effectively by being a damage class and actually killing dudes.
+1 .
and our one ability to not die as quickly is taken away...
In pugs I can tank 4 people by kiting still, but it does nothing when my team dies to one tr....
Precisely.
In the matches I've played I'm already not far from that, if I'm not really focused by at least half of the enemy team, while, of course, providing a significant damage increase to the party via buffs and debuffs. Mitigation from astral shield and benefit of foresight reduces incoming damage a lot, while the divine shield still heals people for the little damage they take.
In the matches I'm in... I see people get almost 1 shot by ice knife/shard in an AS...
tank DC's could never make his team unkillable... I remember pugs just getting cleared out quickly if I ever solo queued even with an AS and exaltation on them....
the only way I could ever win was backcapping and pray my team could 4 v 3 or something
Ice Knife hits for approx 6-10K on geared people.
Shardplosion hits for 5k-10K or so depending on spec/rotation. Shardslam for less.
Talking about crits here.
I can 1 shot people still with shard rotation, but they have to be squishy and ungeared. Then I hit even 22K IK. Even so, with most PvPers above 35K HP, these spells are way more tame than they used to be.
I got the numbers from ACT, from a few PM games against geared teams.
With correct setup and feats, i managed to bring our highly-focused cw from 1% to 100% in 10 seconds. This show our healing power when maxed and indeed it was a good news to all healers!!! However, since the 4 EoAs bring in emblems, their solo heal power is greater than our cleric maximized heals. They cast emblem one by one and we are totally pissed!!! Merlyn the HR from EoA is the greatest sniper, while i was 1v1-ing him at either base either defending or contesting, the most i can survive is 5 sec, then i died (DC healer tank power is lower). The EoA GF interrupt me when i was supporting others at mid but it is not great threat to me, i just dodge away and heal again. The poor thing is i mistype screenshot command (without listing UI) if not i can post the score board as information for pvp clerics. Hope the other guys from EoAs got that screenshot, it is so hard to meet a specific team in pvp due to matchmaking system. And to the unknown Wixxxxxx cleric from EoA can you tell us your experience in pvp??
If both teams have a DC, it definitely works fine. In the same way that any horrible or OP class will balance each other out if there's one on each opposing teams. But in my experience, if say, your team didn't have a DC, the score would have been in your favour by a much greater extent.
(I can heal a player from 1%-100% is even less than 10 seconds! It just involves popping my Emblem, dropping a divine FF/Exaltation, a divine AS, a divine HW, and hoping their Waters/Emblem is off cooldown! :P)
Our heals where nerfed theirs was buffed due to the HP increase in gear. I think we should give them an iWin button.
Sadly, a f2p player like me mostly don't have emblem. 2nd thing is if HW didnt have a cd of 3 sec, i can heal him to max in 5 sec (just joking as HW is a HoT that require some time to do full healing). And DC presence in field are usually ignored as we cant propose any threat to any people, with the exception of dio style debuffing head hunters.
He is a pvp cw, hp more than 30k. And i just locked his hp with div Ex, cast HW and div AS, HG then HW again. His hp full back after some dodging here and there. I have 4 pips of divinity, always save two pips for emergency.