as a rogue, clerics only seemed immortal pre-patch when there were 2 or more of them, not everyone attacking the cleric, or it was one of those ungodly tanky clerics that are actually rare.
As a somewhat ungodly tanky healing cleric, I can testify that I was virtually unkillable to the average PUG, but good, coordinated players could kill me, or if lacking burst, they could at least keep me so busy trying to avoid getting shut down by CC that I couldn't do much else.
The average DC, or a DC who tried to do anything but survive and support, was still pretty weak. A lot of the more strenuous complaints about HD and DCs are from up-and-coming DCs who were already struggling and now feel overwhelmed.
I'm sure you'd be more successful asking the devs to pimp spells with great potential but too low effectiveness, like guardian of faith. The heal effect could be increased by 100% and it would still be a subpar choice. Healing word is already awesome but the HoT effect could be a little faster. Getting a straight increase on heals will likely lead to make pvp matches like the one you've played for 2h last even longer. If a perfectly balanced match lasts over 2h it means there is still too much healing around, and I'd rather see some bad spells being buffed instead of seeing healing depression be increased even more after the devs read complaints about matches in which everyone is absolutely immortal thanks to the cleric after doing what you asked for.
pretty sure I mentioned this before... Clerics do not sustain the overall match, what they do is keep their team alive enough to kill the other team. How would a dc prolong a match if the other team has no dc? If there is on a dc on one team and not on the other only 2 outcomes will occur:
1) the team with dc snowballs because they can clear points and keep relatively high hp and clear more points
2) the team without a dc has more dps than the team with the dc and therefore snowballs b/c the dc hinders the enemy team
Currently matches are so long because people have no other way to stay alive other than:
-escaping from combat
-permastealthing on a point (tr's)
-running to grab a pot
The fact is most of the time the matches are prolonged b/c people at a higher caliber tend not to die, even with low hp, run back after healing with a pot, to go and contest a point. Most pugs don't understand how to stand on points which results in a one-sided loss.
1) the team with dc snowballs because they can clear points and keep relatively high hp and clear more points
2) the team without a dc has more dps than the team with the dc and therefore snowballs b/c the dc hinders the enemy team
Point number 2 is offset by the healing of the DC effectively diminishing the DPS of the other team.
Point number 2 is offset by the healing of the DC effectively diminishing the DPS of the other team.
So where does that leave us? Point number 1.
Not exactly. The healing depends on each dc's build making their choice to bring a specific type of dc a definitive part. Also, it isn't impossible to kill people through healing. If one team's dps is so high that they burst the cleric down, then they will win.
With proper build tanky DC is insanely hard to kill. Investment in defense + high tenacity + healing is powerful combination. Yesterday me (TR) and other TR could not take down such a beast even with concentrated fire. Yeah, even shocking execution did not help much, HR had to join so we were finally capable of taking him down.
Of course DC did zero damage to us, but in terms of domination gamplay he was keeping the point against two players and third was required to kill him, so his team got huge advantage on the other nodes. This shows that DC is not designed to kill en masse, but if played strategically is very valuable for the team in PvP. If someone wants to lead in kills as DC, he rolled wrong class.
I have a feeling that in PvP everyone wants to neglect his class and just be awesome dps machine winning 1v1, 1v2 and stand equal in 1v3, against every other compostion of classes. That's absurd. Every class has its role and must contribute to the fight according to the role (everyone accepts that for PvE, so why not for PvP?). For example cooperating DC+GWF on the node? You must throw loads of skilled firepower against just a two players.
And I do not have a problem with DC being very, very hard to kill in 1v1 even for dps specialist. And DC can win such duel, many time I lost 1v1 against DC, het keept himself alive and (slowly) damage me bit by bit. So, better one won. Buy keeping himself alive for prolonged period vs 2 opponents of the class which should be single-target melee dps kings? It's shows that is something wrong with either DC healing or TR ability to dps...
Ratharel - stealthy backstabber from the Myth Drannor
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
With proper build tanky DC is insanely hard to kill. Investment in defense + high tenacity + healing is powerful combination. Yesterday me (TR) and other TR could not take down such a beast even with concentrated fire. Yeah, even shocking execution did not help much, HR had to join so we were finally capable of taking him down.
Of course DC did zero damage to us, but in terms of domination gamplay he was keeping the point against two players and third was required to kill him, so his team got huge advantage on the other nodes. This shows that DC is not designed to kill en masse, but if played strategically is very valuable for the team in PvP. If someone wants to lead in kills as DC, he rolled wrong class.
I have a feeling that in PvP everyone wants to neglect his class and just be awesome dps machine winning 1v1, 1v2 and stand equal in 1v3, against every other compostion of classes. That's absurd. Every class has its role and must contribute to the fight according to the role (everyone accepts that for PvE, so why not for PvP?). For example cooperating DC+GWF on the node? You must throw loads of skilled firepower against just a two players.
And I do not have a problem with DC being very, very hard to kill in 1v1 even for dps specialist. And DC can win such duel, many time I lost 1v1 against DC, het keept himself alive and (slowly) damage me bit by bit. So, better one won. Buy keeping himself alive for prolonged period vs 2 opponents of the class which should be single-target melee dps kings? It's shows that is something wrong with either DC healing or TR ability to dps...
You probably came up against a DC who far outgeared you. Against similarly geared players these tank clerics are a speedbump. A large and annoying speedbump that you might damage your undercarriage on, but still just a speedbump.
Well, it was after the PvP patch, so he should not have thousands of GS more. I just wanted to say the DC that scream that they can't heal anymore in PvP just do something wrong and refuse to adjust their habits from PvE to PvP. And yeah, I see it more and more that after the patch it's no longer possible to have the same build for PvE ad PvP and expect to be best in both.
Ratharel - stealthy backstabber from the Myth Drannor
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well, it was after the PvP patch, so he should not have thousands of GS more. I just wanted to say the DC that scream that they can't heal anymore in PvP just do something wrong and refuse to adjust their habits from PvE to PvP. And yeah, I see it more and more that after the patch it's no longer possible to have the same build for PvE ad PvP and expect to be best in both.
I have had the occasional game where my 15-18k characters were dropped in to play against/with people with 8k GS. Needless to say it was like putting the dinosaur amongst the sheep. ELO hasn't got a large enough sample for a proper ranking yet, especially if they haven't played many games.
Well, it was after the PvP patch, so he should not have thousands of GS more. I just wanted to say the DC that scream that they can't heal anymore in PvP just do something wrong and refuse to adjust their habits from PvE to PvP. And yeah, I see it more and more that after the patch it's no longer possible to have the same build for PvE ad PvP and expect to be best in both.
This was never possible.... most of us who are complaining are both PvE and PvP clerics... and like I've mentioned before, not to be offensive, but there is a skill gap... not just gear gap. You can't just lashing people expecting to hit them... this game has active dodging. Also, your build says permastealth, if this were true you should never take any damage from a dc other than something like forgemaster's...
My guess is either
a) you aren't using duelist's flurry, your best dps...
b) you miss the flurries which add bleed stacks which will wear any dc down
Honestly, I think people who are not competitive pvpers do not understand how severe the healing depression is for a cleric in a COMPETITIVE match...
This was never possible.... most of us who are complaining are both PvE and PvP clerics... and like I've mentioned before, not to be offensive, but there is a skill gap... not just gear gap. You can't just lashing people expecting to hit them... this game has active dodging. Also, your build says permastealth, if this were true you should never take any damage from a dc other than something like forgemaster's...
My guess is either
a) you aren't using duelist's flurry, your best dps...
b) you miss the flurries which add bleed stacks which will wear any dc down
Honestly, I think people who are not competitive pvpers do not understand how severe the healing depression is for a cleric in a COMPETITIVE match...
I do man. I dont pvp, but use a pve cleric. my friend uses a dps oriented pvp build, but can quickswitch to heal based for most pvp matches if necessary. shes downright ticked at this change, as righteousness makes healing themselves almost, if not, pointless, and the thing theyre majorly known for(ensuring players' survivability) is also pointless. I feel for almost all classes with this change(you guys know which one).
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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leftyy13Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 12Arc User
The usual healer basic encounters AFTER patch:
Sunburst- doesn't knockback.
Astral shield-Heals me for 137 ticks, teammates for 217 ticks
Healing word- crit heals for 300 on me... 700 on teammates... don't even ask about the non crit
Let's do some math...
Consider the fact that most pvp players now have 30k+hp if equipping hp gear from GG set/radiants slotted.
Imagine: an Ice Knife crits for 11k w/o deflection now....
.7% of my allies' total hp healed every tick with AS (217/30000)
2.3% of my allies' total hp healed every tick of a healing word that crit (700/30000) (using a P vorpal, haven't tested with feytouched yet...)
Let's say after 30 seconds both tick about 7 times, in total that would be
6419 (7*(217+700)) hit points healed=> 21.4% of allies' total hp healed using 2 spells which require HoT/ticks
36.7% of my allies' total hp taken (11000/30000) using 1 spell
Also, something to note is I'm not even factoring other things that may have been cast on my ally (CoI, magic missiles, chilling ray)
Something seems kind of unbalanced don't you think?
This is my first post...I don't really visit these forums...but had to see what kinds of experiences people were having with their DCs post patch pretty and much everything you have said in your posts in this thread is spot on from what I've experienced and seen too. I've spent most of my time the least 9 or 10 months pvp'ing on my cleric. He's fairly well geared, tanky variety. I used to be able to hold nodes and keep teammates topped off. The healing output now is just ridiculous. It seems like I burn a full tank of divinity only to restore a small portion of hit points on a teammate. I've also tried a number of different encounter combos to see how I could really effectively help my team...there isn't a lot there right now. I've tried debuffing setup, healing setup, and even damage setup (this is a joke if you are a defensive setup).
Even sitting on 43% damage resistance/31% deflect I feel like a CW when I start to get focused some. A good DC adjusting and playing to the strengths of their team could be a difference maker in the match, I don't see where they have much to offer a party now post patch.
The most effective way to play a cleric now is to max AP gain and spam Hollowed Ground. I'm not sure but it looks like feated HG is not affected by HD.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Well, it was after the PvP patch, so he should not have thousands of GS more. I just wanted to say the DC that scream that they can't heal anymore in PvP just do something wrong and refuse to adjust their habits from PvE to PvP. And yeah, I see it more and more that after the patch it's no longer possible to have the same build for PvE ad PvP and expect to be best in both.
Can i be an exception?? I strictly do pvp since beta and rarely touch pve content (with the exception of 3 T1 dungeons for High Prophet set).
DC cant heals (but only has a slight reduce in healing ability when heavily feated), said by a cleric who put 25 points in faithful for maximized healing in live.
The most effective way to play a cleric now is to max AP gain and spam Hollowed Ground. I'm not sure but it looks like feated HG is not affected by HD.
Feated HG will be affected too when last time i test in preview.
I have had the occasional game where my 15-18k characters were dropped in to play against/with people with 8k GS. Needless to say it was like putting the dinosaur amongst the sheep. ELO hasn't got a large enough sample for a proper ranking yet, especially if they haven't played many games.
Ouch! That must hurt, 10K GS diff is indeed another galaxy.
Personally I'm quite pleased with new matchmaking. After 20+ games most of the time I'm thrown into much more competetive match than previous PUGs, wins by 20-40 points are common. Belive or not I haven't seen a leaver in 20 fights in a row, everyone is trying to do his best even if it means one kill for 15 deaths. That's worth suffering minor inconveniences related to ELO system.
This was never possible.... most of us who are complaining are both PvE and PvP clerics... and like I've mentioned before, not to be offensive, but there is a skill gap... not just gear gap. You can't just lashing people expecting to hit them... this game has active dodging. Also, your build says permastealth, if this were true you should never take any damage from a dc other than something like forgemaster's...
My guess is either
a) you aren't using duelist's flurry, your best dps...
b) you miss the flurries which add bleed stacks which will wear any dc down
Well, i'm rather semi-perma, especially in PvP. I use DF whenever possible, but it's not so easy to land a bleed on smart players. Of course if DC is brave enough to try to facetank it, I'll burn him, but more experienced players can avoid a bleed even if dazed/surprised from stealth. It's not whining, just my observation.
And I think that after the patch the gap between optimal build/gear/tactics in PvE and PvP is much wider. Thus the most QQ comes not from specific class but PvE oriented players who refuse to swap gear and skillsets for PvP to be fully competitive and accept the fact that to top the charts they have build a char for PvP. I'm more PvE oriented myself, so I try to optimize myself in PvP with gear/skillsets swap. It allows me to be somewhere in the middle of the chart (never in the top 3, neither in bottom 3) and I'm fine with it.
And no class have been nerfed/buffed so it's not effective in PvP if not used wisely (well, one class that desereved nerf was not nerfed, but that's another story).
I've seen CWs, GWFs, TRs, HRs topping the charts, it changes from match to match. Seen kill:deaths ratios like 24:3 GWF, 20:1 CW, 18:4 TR, 22:1 HR so there is potential for every dps class to rule PvP. Can't tell about GFs since they are very rare. However, I don't remember DCs topping the charts.
Honestly, I think people who are not competitive pvpers do not understand how severe the healing depression is for a cleric in a COMPETITIVE match...
Well, healing is depressed, but damage is slower too. I really like to run with clerics in PvP even more than before the patch. From the squishy TR perspective - before patch cleric could not save me from GWF knocking me down and slaying in one encounter rotation. Now with 50% healing but with lower incoming damage/less CC I'm saved from death by cleric more often. So don't be so depressed, there are some people who really appreciate DCs in PvP (if the are in their teams :P).
Ratharel - stealthy backstabber from the Myth Drannor
And I think that after the patch the gap between optimal build/gear/tactics in PvE and PvP is much wider. Thus the most QQ comes not from specific class but PvE oriented players who refuse to swap gear and skillsets for PvP to be fully competitive and accept the fact that to top the charts they have build a char for PvP. I'm more PvE oriented myself, so I try to optimize myself in PvP with gear/skillsets swap. It allows me to be somewhere in the middle of the chart (never in the top 3, neither in bottom 3) and I'm fine with it.
And no class have been nerfed/buffed so it's not effective in PvP if not used wisely (well, one class that desereved nerf was not nerfed, but that's another story).
I've seen CWs, GWFs, TRs, HRs topping the charts, it changes from match to match. Seen kill:deaths ratios like 24:3 GWF, 20:1 CW, 18:4 TR, 22:1 HR so there is potential for every dps class to rule PvP. Can't tell about GFs since they are very rare. However, I don't remember DCs topping the charts.
I'm a tank/healer cleric and I've been pvp'ing with my DC since beta.
First off if you do not play a cleric pls. do not pretend to know if we are struggling with the new patch or not. Let me give you an analogy you may understand:
Let's assume that a perma build TR has 100% stealth. In this scenario the vast majority of TRs (pvp/pve) will be perma since their class powers + more than half of their feats is related to stealth and other players rely on them being stealth as it gives the teammates invaluable buffs.
At some stage the devs realize this is way too OP, so they nerf stealth with 40% for yourself - i.e. your teammates get 100% of the buffs while you only get 60% of the buffs you provide.
Then comes pvp patch - and stealth depression. Result: perma TRs are now suffering with 50% less stealth on top of the -40% whenever they are hit.. This means that the efficiency of your powers and feats for yourself and your ability to stay stealth and buff yourself is reduced from 100% to 30% over the course of a year.
How's that for you?
The DC is the ONLY class in neverwinter that cannot use their feats and powers to their full degree
It is a complete joke!
The most common reason that people QQ about DCs in pvp is when they've encountered one of the few tank PVP DCs in the game i.e. your previous post.
Well, i'm rather semi-perma, especially in PvP. I use DF whenever possible, but it's not so easy to land a bleed on smart players. Of course if DC is brave enough to try to facetank it, I'll burn him, but more experienced players can avoid a bleed even if dazed/surprised from stealth. It's not whining, just my observation.
And I think that after the patch the gap between optimal build/gear/tactics in PvE and PvP is much wider. Thus the most QQ comes not from specific class but PvE oriented players who refuse to swap gear and skillsets for PvP to be fully competitive and accept the fact that to top the charts they have build a char for PvP. I'm more PvE oriented myself, so I try to optimize myself in PvP with gear/skillsets swap. It allows me to be somewhere in the middle of the chart (never in the top 3, neither in bottom 3) and I'm fine with it.
And no class have been nerfed/buffed so it's not effective in PvP if not used wisely (well, one class that desereved nerf was not nerfed, but that's another story).
I've seen CWs, GWFs, TRs, HRs topping the charts, it changes from match to match. Seen kill:deaths ratios like 24:3 GWF, 20:1 CW, 18:4 TR, 22:1 HR so there is potential for every dps class to rule PvP. Can't tell about GFs since they are very rare. However, I don't remember DCs topping the charts.
Well, healing is depressed, but damage is slower too. I really like to run with clerics in PvP even more than before the patch. From the squishy TR perspective - before patch cleric could not save me from GWF knocking me down and slaying in one encounter rotation. Now with 50% healing but with lower incoming damage/less CC I'm saved from death by cleric more often. So don't be so depressed, there are some people who really appreciate DCs in PvP (if the are in their teams :P).
Point 1: You said that more experienced DC's can dodge out of a flurry. This is true, however, more experienced TR's also know how to land their flurry. You don't just click and hope it lands you have to time it so the flurry lands on them perfectly ( I have two TR's). So again, it's a skill thing. I know specific TR's who can almost kill me just because they land their flurries when I run out of dodges. This is key to killing a DC.
Also, I'm not some inexperienced undergeared DC, I feel like people can vouch for me:) I have 15.5k GS and have been pvping for awhile... so the fact that you act like you know why we're "QQing" is kind of offensive...
Damage is slower but healing was reduced EVEN MORE. That is the key part you do not understand. Currently there's three debuffs on us:
1) Healing depression=50%
2) Righteousness= 40%
3) Shadowtouched which I'm sure everyone is taking because of HD= 10%
The buff they gave us
1) 25% divinity and 5% healing bonus... 5% really?
The healing is way more reduced than any damage being done... I still get iceknifed for 10k, but now i heal for 100 ticks. Maybe if you gave me a 5k instaheal it'd be ok... but all dc spells are HoT which makes it near impossible to recover with people throwing at-wills and cc at me.
Also, you missed my point of competitive pvp. You are playing pug matches where no offense, it's kind of easy. The fact that you are squishy says you are not competitive. The TRs I know can kill gwf's 1 v 1 no matter the skill level. Therefore, I don't think you understand the implication in COMPETITVE PvP.
You probably came up against a DC who far outgeared you. Against similarly geared players these tank clerics are a speedbump. A large and annoying speedbump that you might damage your undercarriage on, but still just a speedbump.
Exactly. I don't know how many times I can say that I've been playing DC since beta, been playing my DC competitively in PvP for a while, I'm full rank 10s, specced as defensively as I can get, and will still drop incredibly fast from being focused by equally geared players in a 1v2, 2v2, 2v3, 3v3, etc. situation. When I'm being focused in a group situation, my allies don't need healing. I do, and I can't heal myself, I don't have any encounters that allow me to escape CC (e.g., ITC), or a TAB ability that gives me hit points, immunity to CC, etc., I don't have as many dodges as a CW, and I can't rely on the strategy of killing my enemy before they kill me. In these cases, I will die fast when being focused. The one situation where I last the longest is ironically by sitting on a point by myself, in a 1v1 (and slowly dying in many cases). Being a semi-effective 1v1 point holder isn't how I want to play my DC (or how DCs should be played).
Again -I don't think we can emphasize the issue of matched teams/players. This is an issue for DCs when they are equally or less geared than others players. If you've run into one super un-killable DC, chances are you weren't equally geared/experienced, were not focusing the DC properly, or were not properly chaining your prones/encounters. Of course very geared DCs will be able to survive a long time (indefinitely even) against less geared/skilled players, in the same way that geared DPS will be able to kill a less geared/skilled player incredibly fast. Many of the responses from non-DC players on this thread are equivalent to "I ran into a GWF/TR/HR/CW one time that two-shot me, therefore that class is still totally fine/OP." If you aren't a DC, then you really can't speak much to our class.
A point to add here, if you have problem or need to prove something, instead of poking lazuree's back, go challenge Seph in game, that is much faster and more efficient.
1) If u wonder how a sent DC play against others, duel all the sent DC.
2) If u wonder how a healer + a good tank can tank 3 to 4 people, play in game with me.
3) If u don't know how much a cleric must sacrifice for this patch just for healing, u can request for a feat screenshot from any non-sent pure healer cleric, I am one of those rare pure healer for your information.
4) DC not topping the chart?? Do you pug pvp with some runner cleric or battle cleric with minimum kill and death but tons of assist?? Never saw them before?? (I am one of those too)
falaxeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited March 2014
dervs probally to do test DC as all other char i play seem OK(at a pinch) but DC are(insert bad word here) its on going, i do not mine getting one hit by high lvl rog, stuned untill my eyes bleed, in a dungeon can keep the party alive but in pvp can not keep one alive come on fair go WAKE up dervs
Well, it was after the PvP patch, so he should not have thousands of GS more. I just wanted to say the DC that scream that they can't heal anymore in PvP just do something wrong and refuse to adjust their habits from PvE to PvP. And yeah, I see it more and more that after the patch it's no longer possible to have the same build for PvE ad PvP and expect to be best in both.
This awful patch (that I tried to warn everyone about but they were too busy blindly praising PWE to listen) made her completely useless.
Temp hp = <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
Heals = lol waste of time and divinity
Regen = <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
Basically all she can do is hope to stall for as long as possible until a teammate comes along or she finally gets killed since unless my opponent is in the gear from the lvl 1-5 quests I can't output anywhere near enough dmg to kill them or make them retreat and I can't heal or regen worth a **** now. She was a thing of beauty before the patch now she's completely and utterly useless.
the thing is most matches I play in where I have issues are in high elo where matches take about 1.5 hrs... and I'd rather not play with someone I'm not familiar with who said they had issues killing a cleric pre-patch...
Now everyone is having a hard time especially clerics, efforts not equals to rewards (healing doesn't count, damage taken not count, unable to kill with healing skill set etc). I work so hard to save a 8k gs cw from 4 to 5 people, capping here and there but still lost the game because the highly geared stand outside of the circle while the low gs one (cw) stand in the circle. I had to heal him because he is one of the 2 guys know how to play and didn't fear focused by entire enemy team. For the others, i must heal them too or my team dps ability will drop significantly....
Why so many high gs mate dont fight on mid node!!!!
the thing is most matches I play in where I have issues are in high elo where matches take about 1.5 hrs... and I'd rather not play with someone I'm not familiar with who said they had issues killing a cleric pre-patch...
such an ignorant response, anyway good luck to you my mistake
the thing is most matches I play in where I have issues are in high elo where matches take about 1.5 hrs... and I'd rather not play with someone I'm not familiar with who said they had issues killing a cleric pre-patch...
I feel like a lot of these discussions about DCs and Healing Depression are complete head-desk affairs. I think you and I, along with a handful of others, are grasping the issue, but it's apparently very difficult to explain to people that DCs can be both extremely tanky and thus still quite influential in PUG/random GS PvP and also handicapped and pigeonholed when placed in a truly competitive match.
If the DC isn't really killing anyone and isn't really healing anyone, then they lack a clear, effective role. Buffs and debuffs are well and good, but you have to weigh their benefits against the benefit of having, say, another GWF. Trolling PUGs is easier than ever aside from the slow, boring death you will eventually suffer if you let them organize against you and your team leaves you out to dry, but even if you play magnificently, decent players will just focus the real threats around you, knowing that your sustain is limited, and finally clean you off of the node when you're the last one standing.
Decent players will just focus the real threats around you, knowing that your sustain is limited, and finally clean you off of the node when you're the last one standing.
I think that's the worst insult of all, just not bothering to kill you until all the more relevant actors are dead. Says it all about the state of things, really.
Comments
As a somewhat ungodly tanky healing cleric, I can testify that I was virtually unkillable to the average PUG, but good, coordinated players could kill me, or if lacking burst, they could at least keep me so busy trying to avoid getting shut down by CC that I couldn't do much else.
The average DC, or a DC who tried to do anything but survive and support, was still pretty weak. A lot of the more strenuous complaints about HD and DCs are from up-and-coming DCs who were already struggling and now feel overwhelmed.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Do you understand (clearly don't) that DC can't kill anyone in 1vs1 situation? So why should he be killable in 1vs1 situation?
Immortal DCs where able to survive 2v1 situations too.......
Nerf clearly had to happen. Thank you cryptic
1) the team with dc snowballs because they can clear points and keep relatively high hp and clear more points
2) the team without a dc has more dps than the team with the dc and therefore snowballs b/c the dc hinders the enemy team
Currently matches are so long because people have no other way to stay alive other than:
-escaping from combat
-permastealthing on a point (tr's)
-running to grab a pot
The fact is most of the time the matches are prolonged b/c people at a higher caliber tend not to die, even with low hp, run back after healing with a pot, to go and contest a point. Most pugs don't understand how to stand on points which results in a one-sided loss.
Point number 2 is offset by the healing of the DC effectively diminishing the DPS of the other team.
So where does that leave us? Point number 1.
Not exactly. The healing depends on each dc's build making their choice to bring a specific type of dc a definitive part. Also, it isn't impossible to kill people through healing. If one team's dps is so high that they burst the cleric down, then they will win.
Of course DC did zero damage to us, but in terms of domination gamplay he was keeping the point against two players and third was required to kill him, so his team got huge advantage on the other nodes. This shows that DC is not designed to kill en masse, but if played strategically is very valuable for the team in PvP. If someone wants to lead in kills as DC, he rolled wrong class.
I have a feeling that in PvP everyone wants to neglect his class and just be awesome dps machine winning 1v1, 1v2 and stand equal in 1v3, against every other compostion of classes. That's absurd. Every class has its role and must contribute to the fight according to the role (everyone accepts that for PvE, so why not for PvP?). For example cooperating DC+GWF on the node? You must throw loads of skilled firepower against just a two players.
And I do not have a problem with DC being very, very hard to kill in 1v1 even for dps specialist. And DC can win such duel, many time I lost 1v1 against DC, het keept himself alive and (slowly) damage me bit by bit. So, better one won. Buy keeping himself alive for prolonged period vs 2 opponents of the class which should be single-target melee dps kings? It's shows that is something wrong with either DC healing or TR ability to dps...
You probably came up against a DC who far outgeared you. Against similarly geared players these tank clerics are a speedbump. A large and annoying speedbump that you might damage your undercarriage on, but still just a speedbump.
I have had the occasional game where my 15-18k characters were dropped in to play against/with people with 8k GS. Needless to say it was like putting the dinosaur amongst the sheep. ELO hasn't got a large enough sample for a proper ranking yet, especially if they haven't played many games.
This was never possible.... most of us who are complaining are both PvE and PvP clerics... and like I've mentioned before, not to be offensive, but there is a skill gap... not just gear gap. You can't just lashing people expecting to hit them... this game has active dodging. Also, your build says permastealth, if this were true you should never take any damage from a dc other than something like forgemaster's...
My guess is either
a) you aren't using duelist's flurry, your best dps...
b) you miss the flurries which add bleed stacks which will wear any dc down
Honestly, I think people who are not competitive pvpers do not understand how severe the healing depression is for a cleric in a COMPETITIVE match...
I do man. I dont pvp, but use a pve cleric. my friend uses a dps oriented pvp build, but can quickswitch to heal based for most pvp matches if necessary. shes downright ticked at this change, as righteousness makes healing themselves almost, if not, pointless, and the thing theyre majorly known for(ensuring players' survivability) is also pointless. I feel for almost all classes with this change(you guys know which one).
This is my first post...I don't really visit these forums...but had to see what kinds of experiences people were having with their DCs post patch pretty and much everything you have said in your posts in this thread is spot on from what I've experienced and seen too. I've spent most of my time the least 9 or 10 months pvp'ing on my cleric. He's fairly well geared, tanky variety. I used to be able to hold nodes and keep teammates topped off. The healing output now is just ridiculous. It seems like I burn a full tank of divinity only to restore a small portion of hit points on a teammate. I've also tried a number of different encounter combos to see how I could really effectively help my team...there isn't a lot there right now. I've tried debuffing setup, healing setup, and even damage setup (this is a joke if you are a defensive setup).
Even sitting on 43% damage resistance/31% deflect I feel like a CW when I start to get focused some. A good DC adjusting and playing to the strengths of their team could be a difference maker in the match, I don't see where they have much to offer a party now post patch.
Can i be an exception?? I strictly do pvp since beta and rarely touch pve content (with the exception of 3 T1 dungeons for High Prophet set).
DC cant heals (but only has a slight reduce in healing ability when heavily feated), said by a cleric who put 25 points in faithful for maximized healing in live.
Feated HG will be affected too when last time i test in preview.
Ouch! That must hurt, 10K GS diff is indeed another galaxy.
Personally I'm quite pleased with new matchmaking. After 20+ games most of the time I'm thrown into much more competetive match than previous PUGs, wins by 20-40 points are common. Belive or not I haven't seen a leaver in 20 fights in a row, everyone is trying to do his best even if it means one kill for 15 deaths. That's worth suffering minor inconveniences related to ELO system.
Well, i'm rather semi-perma, especially in PvP. I use DF whenever possible, but it's not so easy to land a bleed on smart players. Of course if DC is brave enough to try to facetank it, I'll burn him, but more experienced players can avoid a bleed even if dazed/surprised from stealth. It's not whining, just my observation.
And I think that after the patch the gap between optimal build/gear/tactics in PvE and PvP is much wider. Thus the most QQ comes not from specific class but PvE oriented players who refuse to swap gear and skillsets for PvP to be fully competitive and accept the fact that to top the charts they have build a char for PvP. I'm more PvE oriented myself, so I try to optimize myself in PvP with gear/skillsets swap. It allows me to be somewhere in the middle of the chart (never in the top 3, neither in bottom 3) and I'm fine with it.
And no class have been nerfed/buffed so it's not effective in PvP if not used wisely (well, one class that desereved nerf was not nerfed, but that's another story).
I've seen CWs, GWFs, TRs, HRs topping the charts, it changes from match to match. Seen kill:deaths ratios like 24:3 GWF, 20:1 CW, 18:4 TR, 22:1 HR so there is potential for every dps class to rule PvP. Can't tell about GFs since they are very rare. However, I don't remember DCs topping the charts.
Well, healing is depressed, but damage is slower too. I really like to run with clerics in PvP even more than before the patch. From the squishy TR perspective - before patch cleric could not save me from GWF knocking me down and slaying in one encounter rotation. Now with 50% healing but with lower incoming damage/less CC I'm saved from death by cleric more often. So don't be so depressed, there are some people who really appreciate DCs in PvP (if the are in their teams :P).
I'm a tank/healer cleric and I've been pvp'ing with my DC since beta.
First off if you do not play a cleric pls. do not pretend to know if we are struggling with the new patch or not. Let me give you an analogy you may understand:
Let's assume that a perma build TR has 100% stealth. In this scenario the vast majority of TRs (pvp/pve) will be perma since their class powers + more than half of their feats is related to stealth and other players rely on them being stealth as it gives the teammates invaluable buffs.
At some stage the devs realize this is way too OP, so they nerf stealth with 40% for yourself - i.e. your teammates get 100% of the buffs while you only get 60% of the buffs you provide.
Then comes pvp patch - and stealth depression. Result: perma TRs are now suffering with 50% less stealth on top of the -40% whenever they are hit.. This means that the efficiency of your powers and feats for yourself and your ability to stay stealth and buff yourself is reduced from 100% to 30% over the course of a year.
How's that for you?
The DC is the ONLY class in neverwinter that cannot use their feats and powers to their full degree
It is a complete joke!
The most common reason that people QQ about DCs in pvp is when they've encountered one of the few tank PVP DCs in the game i.e. your previous post.
Point 1: You said that more experienced DC's can dodge out of a flurry. This is true, however, more experienced TR's also know how to land their flurry. You don't just click and hope it lands you have to time it so the flurry lands on them perfectly ( I have two TR's). So again, it's a skill thing. I know specific TR's who can almost kill me just because they land their flurries when I run out of dodges. This is key to killing a DC.
Also, I'm not some inexperienced undergeared DC, I feel like people can vouch for me:) I have 15.5k GS and have been pvping for awhile... so the fact that you act like you know why we're "QQing" is kind of offensive...
Damage is slower but healing was reduced EVEN MORE. That is the key part you do not understand. Currently there's three debuffs on us:
1) Healing depression=50%
2) Righteousness= 40%
3) Shadowtouched which I'm sure everyone is taking because of HD= 10%
The buff they gave us
1) 25% divinity and 5% healing bonus... 5% really?
The healing is way more reduced than any damage being done... I still get iceknifed for 10k, but now i heal for 100 ticks. Maybe if you gave me a 5k instaheal it'd be ok... but all dc spells are HoT which makes it near impossible to recover with people throwing at-wills and cc at me.
Also, you missed my point of competitive pvp. You are playing pug matches where no offense, it's kind of easy. The fact that you are squishy says you are not competitive. The TRs I know can kill gwf's 1 v 1 no matter the skill level. Therefore, I don't think you understand the implication in COMPETITVE PvP.
Exactly. I don't know how many times I can say that I've been playing DC since beta, been playing my DC competitively in PvP for a while, I'm full rank 10s, specced as defensively as I can get, and will still drop incredibly fast from being focused by equally geared players in a 1v2, 2v2, 2v3, 3v3, etc. situation. When I'm being focused in a group situation, my allies don't need healing. I do, and I can't heal myself, I don't have any encounters that allow me to escape CC (e.g., ITC), or a TAB ability that gives me hit points, immunity to CC, etc., I don't have as many dodges as a CW, and I can't rely on the strategy of killing my enemy before they kill me. In these cases, I will die fast when being focused. The one situation where I last the longest is ironically by sitting on a point by myself, in a 1v1 (and slowly dying in many cases). Being a semi-effective 1v1 point holder isn't how I want to play my DC (or how DCs should be played).
Again -I don't think we can emphasize the issue of matched teams/players. This is an issue for DCs when they are equally or less geared than others players. If you've run into one super un-killable DC, chances are you weren't equally geared/experienced, were not focusing the DC properly, or were not properly chaining your prones/encounters. Of course very geared DCs will be able to survive a long time (indefinitely even) against less geared/skilled players, in the same way that geared DPS will be able to kill a less geared/skilled player incredibly fast. Many of the responses from non-DC players on this thread are equivalent to "I ran into a GWF/TR/HR/CW one time that two-shot me, therefore that class is still totally fine/OP." If you aren't a DC, then you really can't speak much to our class.
1) If u wonder how a sent DC play against others, duel all the sent DC.
2) If u wonder how a healer + a good tank can tank 3 to 4 people, play in game with me.
3) If u don't know how much a cleric must sacrifice for this patch just for healing, u can request for a feat screenshot from any non-sent pure healer cleric, I am one of those rare pure healer for your information.
4) DC not topping the chart?? Do you pug pvp with some runner cleric or battle cleric with minimum kill and death but tons of assist?? Never saw them before?? (I am one of those too)
Mail me at
Killy@doggy009
Killy2@doggy009
SENT IV GWF - PVP
SENT IV GWF - PVP
My cleric is purely for pvp (I can pve fine on it but its setup is nowhere near optimal for pve) with this build http://nwcalc.com/dc?b=ofw:1xslio:1cksvn,13l3332:110000:1u0o00:1zu051&h=0&p=anc
This awful patch (that I tried to warn everyone about but they were too busy blindly praising PWE to listen) made her completely useless.
Temp hp = <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
Heals = lol waste of time and divinity
Regen = <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
Basically all she can do is hope to stall for as long as possible until a teammate comes along or she finally gets killed since unless my opponent is in the gear from the lvl 1-5 quests I can't output anywhere near enough dmg to kill them or make them retreat and I can't heal or regen worth a **** now. She was a thing of beauty before the patch now she's completely and utterly useless.
Why so many high gs mate dont fight on mid node!!!!
such an ignorant response, anyway good luck to you my mistake
SENT IV GWF - PVP
I feel like a lot of these discussions about DCs and Healing Depression are complete head-desk affairs. I think you and I, along with a handful of others, are grasping the issue, but it's apparently very difficult to explain to people that DCs can be both extremely tanky and thus still quite influential in PUG/random GS PvP and also handicapped and pigeonholed when placed in a truly competitive match.
If the DC isn't really killing anyone and isn't really healing anyone, then they lack a clear, effective role. Buffs and debuffs are well and good, but you have to weigh their benefits against the benefit of having, say, another GWF. Trolling PUGs is easier than ever aside from the slow, boring death you will eventually suffer if you let them organize against you and your team leaves you out to dry, but even if you play magnificently, decent players will just focus the real threats around you, knowing that your sustain is limited, and finally clean you off of the node when you're the last one standing.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I think that's the worst insult of all, just not bothering to kill you until all the more relevant actors are dead. Says it all about the state of things, really.