I feel like people who do "fine" are queuing vs random pugs. Imagine going up a double gwf, gf, cw, tr combo with all r10s and perfect enchants. This is the level of competitive pvp.
Before this patch, I could solo queue and give my team a chance of winning against full 5 man pms (if they didn't quit).
Before, I understanding being tanky was annoying to some people but keep in mind: We could NEVER kill people alone.
Now, DC's are too weak to 1 v 1 effectively... yeah, I can kill people if they are low hp, but by myself against very geared/well specced players... no chance. In the meantime, I am too scared to soloqueue because I know anything I do will not be able to carry/support my team well.
The usual healer basic encounters AFTER patch:
Sunburst- doesn't knockback.
Astral shield-Heals me for 137 ticks, teammates for 217 ticks
Healing word- crit heals for 300 on me... 700 on teammates... don't even ask about the non crit
Let's do some math...
Consider the fact that most pvp players now have 30k+hp if equipping hp gear from GG set/radiants slotted.
Imagine: an Ice Knife crits for 11k w/o deflection now....
.7% of my allies' total hp healed every tick with AS (217/30000)
2.3% of my allies' total hp healed every tick of a healing word that crit (700/30000) (using a P vorpal, haven't tested with feytouched yet...)
Let's say after 30 seconds both tick about 7 times, in total that would be
6419 (7*(217+700)) hit points healed=> 21.4% of allies' total hp healed using 2 spells which require HoT/ticks
36.7% of my allies' total hp taken (11000/30000) using 1 spell
Also, something to note is I'm not even factoring other things that may have been cast on my ally (CoI, magic missiles, chilling ray)
Something seems kind of unbalanced don't you think?
Based on today's PvP observations, I think the people who claim to be doing okay with a standard healing load-out are fighting groups of random, average PvPers (as lazuree suggested).
I went into my first match today with my old standby: AS/Exalt/HW. At first I thought I might have been a little crazy or exaggerating my experiences from the previous day, because things were going well. There was also a second DC in the group, and while he was playing kind of strangely (Bastion of Health...really?), he was probably contributing to my overall sense of being healed.
I took the same setup into my next match and swapped out HW for FF after the first fight on the node. The other team was coordinated and focused with GWFs and GFs, a DC, and a CW who know what he/she was doing. Even though FF requires divinity in order to heal AND requires recipients to be close to the targeted enemy, it was still far better able to support the party in that kind of competitive fight.
A side note about Sunburst: all DCs I've seen using this ability since the patch have been suffering. The knockback from D-mode fails quite a bit, and the damage/healing is of course even weaker than before.
A side note about Sunburst: all DCs I've seen using this ability since the patch have been suffering. The knockback from D-mode fails quite a bit, and the damage/healing is of course even weaker than before.
Yeah, Sunburst needs to go. I like Divine Glow, good for divinity gain and the debuff is awesome for bringing down tanks.
So, last patch they successfully kill GF, this patch DC got trashed, and if I hear correctly CW suffer a major hit as well.
And ofc GWF has received a nerf as demanded, burst build TR is dead now leave only perma build to be viable.
You see what I did there? People now it is the time to roll a HR then blow zen in it so Cryptic can make some money!
Seriously though this PVP patch seems quite pointless so far, I just hope the ELO thing actually kick in after people play more games. Because right now it is basically premade vs premade all the time among those 5-6 big PVP guilds. And really long game with little reward. 77 mins win for 500 glory? I call it BS.
Again: I have no problems healing people, I have problems surviving myself. Anyone now can outdamage my healing with just at-wills. There's no chance to regen your HP back while kiting your enemy. Now you're dying slowly but dying surely. Why a class that can only heal should be killable in 1vs1 situations? This is my first MMO where a healer can't survive a focus of one person. Remove Righteousness and I'll be happy.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
My experience so far is that i see them still surviving pretty well, while healing is obviously reduced. Yesterday got a very funny, long match against a pug with 2 DCs and 2 GWFs. The DCs together were able to survive for a pretty long time. I also noticed this: with tenacity, plus astral shield, the damage they get is much lower than before. CC reduction makes it much harder to knock them out of astral shield, so i'd try to use this at your advantage. The 2 DCs were able to combine their portections to protect each Others and tank basically all the focused DPS coming at them. Fights in the middle 5v5 (we got 1 DC too) were very long, with kills happening very slowly. Was very important to apply some strategy. Their TR moving on the other nodes and we were doing the same. Point 2 was contested consistently most of the time, so it was a matter of holding out on point 2 while capping the other points. In those points, fights were mostly 1v1 or 2v1. The enemy DCs were sometimes splitting up to contest the other points if needed. And from what i could see, they could do it pretty well.
From what i could see so far, all the DCs i met were able to survive pretty well. Can use some love to their support role, but must be careful cause right now, with tenacity, it's pretty easy to end up in the land of "nobody dies".
Have you played at least 30+ PvP matches?
It's going to take that long (by a majority of PvPers) to get the ranking system "working" properly.
It can't "match" you if you (and others) don't have a stable "rating" so respec'ing and complaining is WAY premature.
LOL, really, are you so brainwashed by this game that you think its ok for us to have to go trough 30+ matches of painfull and timewasting %*&$ just to get their system to work...really.
That fact alone is enough to complain about, its idiotic, I have never seen a game where ppl bend over and take it so much as this.
Well the ppl that stay anyway, because I know there's also allot of players who are or have already left.
Goodluck with this, have fun, at least its almost April, you know spring is coming out
Before the patch rarely any GWF could heal my DC 1vs1. They could use 1 encounter rotation and bring me down to 10% health or even kill me to soulforged and then I was able to regen my HP back to 40-60% while their abilities were on CD and then survive them once more.
But that has no place in PVP. Everyone should be killable 1 vs 1 and especially 1 vs 2.
Something seems kind of unbalanced don't you think?
Seph loves everyone. When Seph complains, it's gotten real in here. Get a hint Cryptic, before your most strangely loyal, long-time playing player base starts to head out. I'm pretty much done at this point personally, and it actually feels good saying that.
LOL, really, are you so brainwashed by this game that you think its ok for us to have to go trough 30+ matches of painfull and timewasting %*&$ just to get their system to work...really.
That fact alone is enough to complain about, its idiotic, I have never seen a game where ppl bend over and take it so much as this.
Well the ppl that stay anyway, because I know there's also allot of players who are or have already left.
Goodluck with this, have fun, at least its almost April, you know spring is coming out
Brainwashed?? Um, no. Intelligent enough to know how math and statistics and the ELO rating system works.
Are you so math challenged to think a rating system is going to magically work immediately with no data?
Here ya go, go investigate it yourself: ELO Rating System
Brainwashed?? Um, no. Intelligent enough to know how math and statistics and the ELO rating system works.
Are you so math challenged to think a rating system is going to magically work immediately with no data?
Here ya go, go investigate it yourself: ELO Rating System
Thats not the point is it... I'm sure it works that way, THAT is the point, that the players have to endure it like that before the system works.
Thats its actually launched like that, this game isnt the first ever with pvp.. there's been lots of games in history with tiered pvp without this weird "clever" system, and lots of other pvp implements/design that we can all read players have been asking for, from experience on PTS or on normal server.
For some reason all that is still not in, tiers, more maps etc, instead its this system, and balance issues.
Now in all fairness I'm not a dev so not saying I know how to code it all, but if they can make this, then surely they can make the stuff ppl been asking for ? guess they dont want to
My main is a DC and I was worried about this patch also.
now that its out Ive been playing and its really not that much of a difference.
I dont even wear tenacity gear and im just as powerful. I have to think little more about my healing is all and change my strat a little
but everything is just fine IMO.:)
So, last patch they successfully kill GF, this patch DC got trashed, and if I hear correctly CW suffer a major hit as well.
And ofc GWF has received a nerf as demanded, burst build TR is dead now leave only perma build to be viable.
You see what I did there? People now it is the time to roll a HR then blow zen in it so Cryptic can make some money!
Seriously though this PVP patch seems quite pointless so far, I just hope the ELO thing actually kick in after people play more games. Because right now it is basically premade vs premade all the time among those 5-6 big PVP guilds. And really long game with little reward. 77 mins win for 500 glory? I call it BS.
I don't know how many matches you have done since the patch, but this really isn't true. Although DC healing did get nerfed (not that it was op to start), but most of these statements aren't even close to what I have been experiencing.
GWF didn't get any type of nerf, the new non class specific gameplay changes just made it so that the fotm's can't face roll anymore. I can solo equally geared GWF's easily now on my TR, while before I could only solo less geared ones. The mega geared GWF's are still a huge problem, but that's maybe 5% of the ones I run into.
TR spike builds are still very viable. I roll a TR spike build, and I still finish very close to the top every match in kills. If anything the perma builds are less effective as it's a lot harder to kill people and they struggled b4.
CW's now have some defensive options and although they can't spike at the insane rate they could b4, they can now live longer, and I've seen a lot of CW's do very well in matches now. You have to change things up though, as choke/ice knife really doesn't do it anymore.
As for pre made vs pre made. I've run into maybe 2 pre mades since the patch, with an average of 4-8 fights a night.
I do agree however I haven't even tried my DC in pvp since the patch, I'll run some GG and get the t2 set sprinkle in some glory gear and see what happens. Although I rolled with GCTRL's pvp tank build, so I wasn't really spec'd for healing to start. Any time you can give another play an edge is a bonus, while you can't heal them up, you can still debuff and provide DR which any player will appreciate.
To preface, I’m an experienced and maxed geared PvP DC, and have run 20+ matches since the release of the PvP patch. I will explain some of the major issues with DCs in PvP. First, here are my stats so you can all understand where I’m coming from:
With firecamp bonus:
HP: 38.8k (when I get more profound gear, I will be around 39.3k).
AC: 34
Power: 3.2k (can reach 4.3k with feats/boons)
Crit: 1k (22% crit chance)
Recovery: 2.7 (unfortunately, the gear stacks unnecessary amounts of recovery, so this is far more than necessary)
Regen: 1.9k
Defense: 2.5k
Damage reduction: 42%
Tenacity: 19.1%
As you can see, I’ve gone fairly defensive (stacking HP and regen). Unfortunately, I’ve observed several key problems for DCs in PvP. Essentially, if: a) the teams are relatively evenly matched in gear/experience, b) one team has a DC, and c) the other doesn’t have a DC, then the team with the DC is at a disadvantage. As a DC, we don’t provide nearly enough utility to compensate for a lack of DPS class. Here’s why:
In a 2v2 on a node, the enemy will (rightfully) focus down the DC. With righteousness, healing depression, and reduced regeneration, there is no way we can sustain ourselves for long from that much DPS. When I’m versus two DPS on a point, I will last around 10-15 seconds (maybe a little longer with lower DPS classes there). In the meantime, my ally in a 2v2 has no need for my healing, since they aren’t being targeted (so this is the DC being completely unhelpful). I am essentially just healing myself, which I simply can’t do (see righteousness). Once I die, my ally is left 1v2. And because I do little damage, they are left 1v2 with at least one opponent at near full health. My ally won’t last long either. In those 10 or so seconds where I’m being focused, in evenly matched teams, my DPS ally can’t always clear another person fast enough. If they do, the damage is often already done: I barely have any remaining health and I can’t recover from that (even my with hp, regen, and full healing encounters). The surviving enemy will finish me off, and the enemy that my ally cleared will respawn and return to the point at full health to simply finish my ally. I’ve certainly cleared a point with DPS as a DC many, many times, and the common factor in each other those situations was: we outgeared the enemy and had far more experience than them. In an even match, it just isn’t viable. (If I go DPS/debuff, I will die even faster when being focused and simply not output nearly as much damage as another DPS class).
If I’m not as useful as another DPS in most 2v2 situations, how are DCs at 1v1s? I can hold indefinitely against less experienced/geared TRs, GWFs, etc.. But if I’m 1v1 a good TR, I can survive one shocking executioner, but by the time they get their daily back up, I won’t have recovered enough hp to survive the next one (or the third one). GWFs are easier, but again, but they will eventually succeed at dwindling me down and I won’t be able to kill them. GFs seem to be the least problematic class, but their knockbacks will still give them points on the node. And obviously, the point of a DC is not to 1v1, since they can’t clear the point and they aren’t healing anyone.
It comes down to the fact that getting another DPS class over a DC provides a team with far more utility in relatively even matches. If you outmatch the team in a variety of respects, then the DC is perfectly acceptable. But in more competitive premades, bringing a DC (if the other team doesn’t have one) will just make the match much harder for your team.
TL;DR: in a 2v2, a DC will be focused and die fast (meaning it won’t be there to heal your ally when they get focused 1v2); in a 1v1, a DC will eventually die against most classes. For more utility on your team, bring a DPS class.
In essence: if DCs can’t heal themselves, they often won’t be able to heal other players (on account of being dead fast). If a DC is going debuff/DPS, they might as well re-roll to an actual DPS class.
Oh and just gonna call it DEV won't do anything helpful for a while(months), look what happened to GF So you might as well roll something else now if you don't feel like playing the way DC is right now.
This really isn't helpful or encouraging to anyone who has spent a lot of time playing, gearing, and upgrading their DC. I've invested a lot in getting specific enchantments, legendary artefacts, and all the boons for my DC. Most of these are non-transferrable (and the enchantments aren't necessarily the right ones I'd need for another class). In addition, I've spent a lot of time enjoying playing the DC. Re-rolling really shouldn't be the best solution.
like I mentioned earlier... against pugs, dc's are fine, in fact, stronger:) but pugs are pugs, and where velynna and I play most people are competitive and very geared In competitive premades:
2 hrs later I was too exhausted to put up a screenshot but the score was 1000 to 983... a rainbow vs a two gwf, two tr, cw comp...
I could not 1 v 1 any of them for long periods of time (30 seconds). I feel more like a cw b/c I was so squishy and couldn't do anything... all I could do was just barely keep my teammates alive with their 3k remaining hp.
All I ask is that you give dc's a healing boost like you gave cw's a control bonus.
like I mentioned earlier... against pugs, dc's are fine, in fact, stronger:)
All I ask is that you give dc's a healing boost like you gave cw's a control bonus.
Yup. When you out-gear and/or out-skill your opponent, DCs will do quite well (any class will). It's in the even matches where you realize how significant and problematic their failings are.
I completely agree with Seph; our healing needs to be boosted in some form, especially to ourselves. The impact of righteousness needs to be reduced in pvp (and ideally, healing depression, to some extent).
Yup. When you out-gear and/or out-skill your opponent, DCs will do quite well (any class will). It's in the even matches where you realize how significant and problematic their failings are.
I completely agree with Seph; our healing needs to be boosted in some form, especially to ourselves. The impact of righteousness needs to be reduced in pvp (and ideally, healing depression, to some extent).
Its already almost impossible to win against good team that has 1 or 2 DCs yet you want healing boost? Thats funny
I remember a match where me (gwf) and 3 more gwf friends and an HR with avrg gs of 15-16k and all of us experienced pvpers yet we got slaughtered by a team of 2 immortal DCs , one gwf and I dont remember the rest
We had very hard time killing the DCs or anyone that was with them , once the DCs were far their team got slaughtered in seconds....so yeah come tell me DCs arent op support plus super tanky. ...yes not all but I met some supper tanky DCs
We had very hard time killing the DCs or anyone that was with them , once the DCs were far their team got slaughtered in seconds....so yeah come tell me DCs arent op support plus super tanky. ...yes not all but I met some supper tanky DCs
If you refer to my stats, you'll see that I'm built for maximum tankiness. I'm not sure those DCs you mentioned would have more hp/regen/defense than I did. And I can guarantee you that if I'm focused by two equally geared and experienced DPS, I will go down fast. And knowing roughly the amount of healing another DC can do, I know that another DC would not be able to save me. No offense to your teammates, but you guys were definitely out-played for reasons other than DC utility/healing.
That being said, if you're sporting rank 7 enchantments, and you're versus DCs with rank 10 enchantments, yes, you will struggle to kill them/not be able to. Most max geared classes will seem OP to less geared players. Nothing new there.
If you refer to my stats, you'll see that I'm built for maximum tankiness. I sincerely doubt those DCs you mentioned had more hp/regen/defense than I did. And I can guarantee you that if I'm focused by two equally geared and experienced DPS, I will go down fast. And knowing roughly the amount of healing another DC can do, I know that another DC would not be able to save me. No offense to your teammates, but you guys were definitely out-played for reasons other than DC utility/healing.
I did not see most the battle at 2 where the 2 DCs were there since I was on 3 all the time fighting the TR and some help of the GWF when tr goes down but I know my teammates had insane DPS, most of them had plus 6k power , 3k crit ,2k ap and as I heard they won most the battles yet we somehow managed to lose the match.
I dont know if they were better geared than you or not but if that matter they were from the same guild...which I dont remember name
(Probably Synergy. They have some of the best/most geared DCs. But put their DCs against our equally experienced guild with a full party of DPS classes, and they will not last long. And it has nothing to do with their skill level).
Oh yeah it waa synergy and no I was not undergeared I have full R10s p.vorpal.soulforged...my team was around 15-16k
Anyway hope we run into them again
Gear is nothing... it's about timing and skill to kill a dc
1) don't hit them in their astral shield/bubble with a long cd skill ie daily, large burst skill (frontline, deep gash)
2) prone the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of them
3) pick one target and one target only
4) if you keep failing just walk away
Just because you can't kill them doesn't mean they are unkillable... just sounds like a lack of strategy to me, or a build problem
Build changes your damage output and resistance, gear means almost nothing other than your weapon.
All I ask is that you give dc's a healing boost like you gave cw's a control bonus.
I'm sure you'd be more successful asking the devs to pimp spells with great potential but too low effectiveness, like guardian of faith. The heal effect could be increased by 100% and it would still be a subpar choice. Healing word is already awesome but the HoT effect could be a little faster. Getting a straight increase on heals will likely lead to make pvp matches like the one you've played for 2h last even longer. If a perfectly balanced match lasts over 2h it means there is still too much healing around, and I'd rather see some bad spells being buffed instead of seeing healing depression be increased even more after the devs read complaints about matches in which everyone is absolutely immortal thanks to the cleric after doing what you asked for.
I don't recall seeing complaints that DCs were to blame for excessive sustain in PvP. It's rather telling that GWF sustain is a much hotter topic, or it was up until what sustain DCs offered was hit by Healing Depression right along with the real culprits.
DCs weren't immortal even before this patch; they just seemed that way to players who weren't on the same level with a strong support DC or didn't know how to properly apply CC. GWFs sustained themselves just as well under similar circumstances while resisting CC attempts and killing their attackers.
Allowing DCs to do that part of their jobs again at the marginally acceptable level of effectiveness they previously enjoyed won't break anything.
I don't recall seeing complaints that DCs were to blame for excessive sustain in PvP. It's rather telling that GWF sustain is a much hotter topic, or it was up until what sustain DCs offered was hit by Healing Depression right along with the real culprits.
DCs weren't immortal even before this patch; they just seemed that way to players who weren't on the same level with a strong support DC or didn't know how to properly apply CC. GWFs sustained themselves just as well under similar circumstances while resisting CC attempts and killing their attackers.
Allowing DCs to do that part of their jobs again at the marginally acceptable level of effectiveness they previously enjoyed won't break anything.
as a rogue, clerics only seemed immortal pre-patch when there were 2 or more of them, not everyone attacking the cleric, or it was one of those ungodly tanky clerics that are actually rare.
Comments
Before this patch, I could solo queue and give my team a chance of winning against full 5 man pms (if they didn't quit).
Before, I understanding being tanky was annoying to some people but keep in mind: We could NEVER kill people alone.
Now, DC's are too weak to 1 v 1 effectively... yeah, I can kill people if they are low hp, but by myself against very geared/well specced players... no chance. In the meantime, I am too scared to soloqueue because I know anything I do will not be able to carry/support my team well.
Sunburst- doesn't knockback.
Astral shield-Heals me for 137 ticks, teammates for 217 ticks
Healing word- crit heals for 300 on me... 700 on teammates... don't even ask about the non crit
Let's do some math...
Consider the fact that most pvp players now have 30k+hp if equipping hp gear from GG set/radiants slotted.
Imagine: an Ice Knife crits for 11k w/o deflection now....
.7% of my allies' total hp healed every tick with AS (217/30000)
2.3% of my allies' total hp healed every tick of a healing word that crit (700/30000) (using a P vorpal, haven't tested with feytouched yet...)
Let's say after 30 seconds both tick about 7 times, in total that would be
6419 (7*(217+700)) hit points healed=> 21.4% of allies' total hp healed using 2 spells which require HoT/ticks
36.7% of my allies' total hp taken (11000/30000) using 1 spell
Also, something to note is I'm not even factoring other things that may have been cast on my ally (CoI, magic missiles, chilling ray)
Something seems kind of unbalanced don't you think?
I went into my first match today with my old standby: AS/Exalt/HW. At first I thought I might have been a little crazy or exaggerating my experiences from the previous day, because things were going well. There was also a second DC in the group, and while he was playing kind of strangely (Bastion of Health...really?), he was probably contributing to my overall sense of being healed.
I took the same setup into my next match and swapped out HW for FF after the first fight on the node. The other team was coordinated and focused with GWFs and GFs, a DC, and a CW who know what he/she was doing. Even though FF requires divinity in order to heal AND requires recipients to be close to the targeted enemy, it was still far better able to support the party in that kind of competitive fight.
A side note about Sunburst: all DCs I've seen using this ability since the patch have been suffering. The knockback from D-mode fails quite a bit, and the damage/healing is of course even weaker than before.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Yeah, Sunburst needs to go. I like Divine Glow, good for divinity gain and the debuff is awesome for bringing down tanks.
It's going to take that long (by a majority of PvPers) to get the ranking system "working" properly.
It can't "match" you if you (and others) don't have a stable "rating" so respec'ing and complaining is WAY premature.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
And ofc GWF has received a nerf as demanded, burst build TR is dead now leave only perma build to be viable.
You see what I did there? People now it is the time to roll a HR then blow zen in it so Cryptic can make some money!
Seriously though this PVP patch seems quite pointless so far, I just hope the ELO thing actually kick in after people play more games. Because right now it is basically premade vs premade all the time among those 5-6 big PVP guilds. And really long game with little reward. 77 mins win for 500 glory? I call it BS.
My experience so far is that i see them still surviving pretty well, while healing is obviously reduced. Yesterday got a very funny, long match against a pug with 2 DCs and 2 GWFs. The DCs together were able to survive for a pretty long time. I also noticed this: with tenacity, plus astral shield, the damage they get is much lower than before. CC reduction makes it much harder to knock them out of astral shield, so i'd try to use this at your advantage. The 2 DCs were able to combine their portections to protect each Others and tank basically all the focused DPS coming at them. Fights in the middle 5v5 (we got 1 DC too) were very long, with kills happening very slowly. Was very important to apply some strategy. Their TR moving on the other nodes and we were doing the same. Point 2 was contested consistently most of the time, so it was a matter of holding out on point 2 while capping the other points. In those points, fights were mostly 1v1 or 2v1. The enemy DCs were sometimes splitting up to contest the other points if needed. And from what i could see, they could do it pretty well.
From what i could see so far, all the DCs i met were able to survive pretty well. Can use some love to their support role, but must be careful cause right now, with tenacity, it's pretty easy to end up in the land of "nobody dies".
LOL, really, are you so brainwashed by this game that you think its ok for us to have to go trough 30+ matches of painfull and timewasting %*&$ just to get their system to work...really.
That fact alone is enough to complain about, its idiotic, I have never seen a game where ppl bend over and take it so much as this.
Well the ppl that stay anyway, because I know there's also allot of players who are or have already left.
Goodluck with this, have fun, at least its almost April, you know spring is coming out
But that has no place in PVP. Everyone should be killable 1 vs 1 and especially 1 vs 2.
Dying is (and should be) part of it.
Seph loves everyone. When Seph complains, it's gotten real in here. Get a hint Cryptic, before your most strangely loyal, long-time playing player base starts to head out. I'm pretty much done at this point personally, and it actually feels good saying that.
Brainwashed?? Um, no. Intelligent enough to know how math and statistics and the ELO rating system works.
Are you so math challenged to think a rating system is going to magically work immediately with no data?
Here ya go, go investigate it yourself: ELO Rating System
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Thats not the point is it... I'm sure it works that way, THAT is the point, that the players have to endure it like that before the system works.
Thats its actually launched like that, this game isnt the first ever with pvp.. there's been lots of games in history with tiered pvp without this weird "clever" system, and lots of other pvp implements/design that we can all read players have been asking for, from experience on PTS or on normal server.
For some reason all that is still not in, tiers, more maps etc, instead its this system, and balance issues.
Now in all fairness I'm not a dev so not saying I know how to code it all, but if they can make this, then surely they can make the stuff ppl been asking for ? guess they dont want to
Anyway, have fun.
now that its out Ive been playing and its really not that much of a difference.
I dont even wear tenacity gear and im just as powerful. I have to think little more about my healing is all and change my strat a little
but everything is just fine IMO.:)
I don't know how many matches you have done since the patch, but this really isn't true. Although DC healing did get nerfed (not that it was op to start), but most of these statements aren't even close to what I have been experiencing.
GWF didn't get any type of nerf, the new non class specific gameplay changes just made it so that the fotm's can't face roll anymore. I can solo equally geared GWF's easily now on my TR, while before I could only solo less geared ones. The mega geared GWF's are still a huge problem, but that's maybe 5% of the ones I run into.
TR spike builds are still very viable. I roll a TR spike build, and I still finish very close to the top every match in kills. If anything the perma builds are less effective as it's a lot harder to kill people and they struggled b4.
CW's now have some defensive options and although they can't spike at the insane rate they could b4, they can now live longer, and I've seen a lot of CW's do very well in matches now. You have to change things up though, as choke/ice knife really doesn't do it anymore.
As for pre made vs pre made. I've run into maybe 2 pre mades since the patch, with an average of 4-8 fights a night.
I do agree however I haven't even tried my DC in pvp since the patch, I'll run some GG and get the t2 set sprinkle in some glory gear and see what happens. Although I rolled with GCTRL's pvp tank build, so I wasn't really spec'd for healing to start. Any time you can give another play an edge is a bonus, while you can't heal them up, you can still debuff and provide DR which any player will appreciate.
With firecamp bonus:
HP: 38.8k (when I get more profound gear, I will be around 39.3k).
AC: 34
Power: 3.2k (can reach 4.3k with feats/boons)
Crit: 1k (22% crit chance)
Recovery: 2.7 (unfortunately, the gear stacks unnecessary amounts of recovery, so this is far more than necessary)
Regen: 1.9k
Defense: 2.5k
Damage reduction: 42%
Tenacity: 19.1%
As you can see, I’ve gone fairly defensive (stacking HP and regen). Unfortunately, I’ve observed several key problems for DCs in PvP. Essentially, if: a) the teams are relatively evenly matched in gear/experience, b) one team has a DC, and c) the other doesn’t have a DC, then the team with the DC is at a disadvantage. As a DC, we don’t provide nearly enough utility to compensate for a lack of DPS class. Here’s why:
In a 2v2 on a node, the enemy will (rightfully) focus down the DC. With righteousness, healing depression, and reduced regeneration, there is no way we can sustain ourselves for long from that much DPS. When I’m versus two DPS on a point, I will last around 10-15 seconds (maybe a little longer with lower DPS classes there). In the meantime, my ally in a 2v2 has no need for my healing, since they aren’t being targeted (so this is the DC being completely unhelpful). I am essentially just healing myself, which I simply can’t do (see righteousness). Once I die, my ally is left 1v2. And because I do little damage, they are left 1v2 with at least one opponent at near full health. My ally won’t last long either. In those 10 or so seconds where I’m being focused, in evenly matched teams, my DPS ally can’t always clear another person fast enough. If they do, the damage is often already done: I barely have any remaining health and I can’t recover from that (even my with hp, regen, and full healing encounters). The surviving enemy will finish me off, and the enemy that my ally cleared will respawn and return to the point at full health to simply finish my ally. I’ve certainly cleared a point with DPS as a DC many, many times, and the common factor in each other those situations was: we outgeared the enemy and had far more experience than them. In an even match, it just isn’t viable. (If I go DPS/debuff, I will die even faster when being focused and simply not output nearly as much damage as another DPS class).
If I’m not as useful as another DPS in most 2v2 situations, how are DCs at 1v1s? I can hold indefinitely against less experienced/geared TRs, GWFs, etc.. But if I’m 1v1 a good TR, I can survive one shocking executioner, but by the time they get their daily back up, I won’t have recovered enough hp to survive the next one (or the third one). GWFs are easier, but again, but they will eventually succeed at dwindling me down and I won’t be able to kill them. GFs seem to be the least problematic class, but their knockbacks will still give them points on the node. And obviously, the point of a DC is not to 1v1, since they can’t clear the point and they aren’t healing anyone.
It comes down to the fact that getting another DPS class over a DC provides a team with far more utility in relatively even matches. If you outmatch the team in a variety of respects, then the DC is perfectly acceptable. But in more competitive premades, bringing a DC (if the other team doesn’t have one) will just make the match much harder for your team.
TL;DR: in a 2v2, a DC will be focused and die fast (meaning it won’t be there to heal your ally when they get focused 1v2); in a 1v1, a DC will eventually die against most classes. For more utility on your team, bring a DPS class.
In essence: if DCs can’t heal themselves, they often won’t be able to heal other players (on account of being dead fast). If a DC is going debuff/DPS, they might as well re-roll to an actual DPS class.
And they heal everybody with bark skin! XD
Oh and just gonna call it DEV won't do anything helpful for a while(months), look what happened to GF
This really isn't helpful or encouraging to anyone who has spent a lot of time playing, gearing, and upgrading their DC. I've invested a lot in getting specific enchantments, legendary artefacts, and all the boons for my DC. Most of these are non-transferrable (and the enchantments aren't necessarily the right ones I'd need for another class). In addition, I've spent a lot of time enjoying playing the DC. Re-rolling really shouldn't be the best solution.
but pugs are pugs, and where velynna and I play most people are competitive and very geared
In competitive premades:
2 hrs later I was too exhausted to put up a screenshot but the score was 1000 to 983... a rainbow vs a two gwf, two tr, cw comp...
I could not 1 v 1 any of them for long periods of time (30 seconds). I feel more like a cw b/c I was so squishy and couldn't do anything... all I could do was just barely keep my teammates alive with their 3k remaining hp.
All I ask is that you give dc's a healing boost like you gave cw's a control bonus.
Yup. When you out-gear and/or out-skill your opponent, DCs will do quite well (any class will). It's in the even matches where you realize how significant and problematic their failings are.
I completely agree with Seph; our healing needs to be boosted in some form, especially to ourselves. The impact of righteousness needs to be reduced in pvp (and ideally, healing depression, to some extent).
Its already almost impossible to win against good team that has 1 or 2 DCs yet you want healing boost? Thats funny
I remember a match where me (gwf) and 3 more gwf friends and an HR with avrg gs of 15-16k and all of us experienced pvpers yet we got slaughtered by a team of 2 immortal DCs , one gwf and I dont remember the rest
We had very hard time killing the DCs or anyone that was with them , once the DCs were far their team got slaughtered in seconds....so yeah come tell me DCs arent op support plus super tanky. ...yes not all but I met some supper tanky DCs
SENT IV GWF - PVP
If you refer to my stats, you'll see that I'm built for maximum tankiness. I'm not sure those DCs you mentioned would have more hp/regen/defense than I did. And I can guarantee you that if I'm focused by two equally geared and experienced DPS, I will go down fast. And knowing roughly the amount of healing another DC can do, I know that another DC would not be able to save me. No offense to your teammates, but you guys were definitely out-played for reasons other than DC utility/healing.
That being said, if you're sporting rank 7 enchantments, and you're versus DCs with rank 10 enchantments, yes, you will struggle to kill them/not be able to. Most max geared classes will seem OP to less geared players. Nothing new there.
I did not see most the battle at 2 where the 2 DCs were there since I was on 3 all the time fighting the TR and some help of the GWF when tr goes down but I know my teammates had insane DPS, most of them had plus 6k power , 3k crit ,2k ap and as I heard they won most the battles yet we somehow managed to lose the match.
I dont know if they were better geared than you or not but if that matter they were from the same guild...which I dont remember name
SENT IV GWF - PVP
Anyway hope we run into them again
SENT IV GWF - PVP
Gear is nothing... it's about timing and skill to kill a dc
1) don't hit them in their astral shield/bubble with a long cd skill ie daily, large burst skill (frontline, deep gash)
2) prone the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of them
3) pick one target and one target only
4) if you keep failing just walk away
Just because you can't kill them doesn't mean they are unkillable... just sounds like a lack of strategy to me, or a build problem
Build changes your damage output and resistance, gear means almost nothing other than your weapon.
I'm sure you'd be more successful asking the devs to pimp spells with great potential but too low effectiveness, like guardian of faith. The heal effect could be increased by 100% and it would still be a subpar choice. Healing word is already awesome but the HoT effect could be a little faster. Getting a straight increase on heals will likely lead to make pvp matches like the one you've played for 2h last even longer.
DCs weren't immortal even before this patch; they just seemed that way to players who weren't on the same level with a strong support DC or didn't know how to properly apply CC. GWFs sustained themselves just as well under similar circumstances while resisting CC attempts and killing their attackers.
Allowing DCs to do that part of their jobs again at the marginally acceptable level of effectiveness they previously enjoyed won't break anything.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
as a rogue, clerics only seemed immortal pre-patch when there were 2 or more of them, not everyone attacking the cleric, or it was one of those ungodly tanky clerics that are actually rare.