I think the better way to change unstoppable is the % of damage taken in place of the X amount of damage taken. Why this is good is pretty obvious to me. Right now, let's say you need 5k damage to fill half of your determination bar. This means that a sentinel tank with 40k+ HP can go unstoppable 7 times before getting killed. A destroyer with, let's say, 21k HP, instead, can use unstoppable 3 times (ipotetically). This just makes unstoppable different on different builds with different HPs. While a tab skill should be the same through the class, no matter the build.
Changing it to, let's say, 15% of total health lost, would just make it the same regardless of the amount of HP. Which would be balanced.
I would also focus on regen "mitigation" through healing depression, with a lesser effect on healing powers such as restoring strike.
Quite simply, with cc reduced and healing depression applied, even the few ones who used RS in PvP, will switch to takedown. Else you wouldn't be able to land IBS and would also heal for a cheap amount. Not convenient. Not much since most GWFs already use takedown-FS-IBS. But still, would reduce the choice to 1 rotation only.
A question too: has any GWF tried to combine tenacity+steel grace+elven battle? Sounds like a lot of cc resistance piling up, on top of unstoppable.
A question too: has any GWF tried to combine tenacity+steel grace+elven battle? Sounds like a lot of cc resistance piling up, on top of unstoppable.
Quite honestly, dont need it. When you can pop unstoppable every few seconds and become immune to prone/cc its a waste to slot an enchant that only works on about half the CC effects (meaning no prones) and only gives a resist instead of immune.
HRs can easily stack over 30%. My GWF is near 40% without sacrificing too much really, and if I upgraded to rank 9s, would be over 40% ArPen. A lot of TRs stack ArPen. The stat itself is cheap in terms of returns up to about 3000, after that getting expensive due to diminishing returns. 3000 puts you right at around 26%.
ArPen is still important because it affects that base % that all damage will be modified by. In terms of quickly killing someone who is tough to kill in pvp as a team, stacking debuffs has always been the way to go. 4 10% debuffs = a 46.41 damage buff against that target. But if that targets Dr is 50% and you ignored ArPen because you are stacking debuffs, that person will take 50% of the total damage vs someone vs 0% still.
Debuffs do not technically counter tenacity in the sense that you would still be doing 20-22% less damage than you would have before stacking debuffs on live. It may mean more people start to stack them instead of relying on only self buffs/debuffs to kill someone.
LOL tr's used to stack ArPEN, but then they took away our armor pen stat allocation on pvp gear... So now we can't get a good amount without getting 2 shotted from lack of survivability
As said beeing multiplicative there's no difference if they are counted before or after the reduction by the tenacy.
The good aspect of a mitigation debuff it's that is more versatile than the arp itself.
Against a player that has 25% dmg reduction you won't need more than 25% arp, while you can stack endlessly mitigation debuffs as they are not related to the target defense and, AFAIK, the only ones that got consistently way more than 25-30% dmg reduction are GFW and GF which probably represent the 20% or less of the PvP population.
BTW as I suppose has been said, the mitigation debuff are "the only way" to counter the tenacy DMG resistance while the ArP does not affect the Tenacy DMG resitence.
HRs Can push to around 55% DR without Boars or Oak Skin. Thats if no one is with 15 feet.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Tenacity did not solved nothing max hp need nerf atm it gives 100 more to defnisve builds then power to ofensive so no wonder how hp stacking wins in pvp
Thank you for destroying DC.
Support DC is hopeless, vs every other class DC loss. I tried 7 different builds. All are suitable only for trash. The funny thing is that Regeneration heals more than my own skills, which are designed to heal(!).
I have yet to check full dps build which seems to be the most reasonable of the current corrupt system.
Not really destroyed, i managed to survive and heal very well when i pvp in preview. This is because good pug teammates control all range classes for me so i can get rid healing depression debuff as soon as possible. Then after i did my capping i rush to higher platform where gwfs and gfs cannot do anything abt me, then i play like a healbot. But who knows if my team at those particular games are BIS team while opposite is trash-geared? How if they insist to kill me first? And out of 10 matches the probability of getting pug stomp is very high, the only impact to DC is there are less healing and survivability when we go sent, rendering astral shield useless except for its mitigation, sunburst unneeded due to high tenacity/control resist and a 300 hp per tick HW which lose to regen.
1) Control Wizards are useless (I think pewpewpew saw this as well)
- Need either a control bonus or a -control resist stat that helps control powers NOT be resisted. Either that or CC resist removed from Tenacity. CC is a control wizards bread and butter, without it being reliable they are worthless....
- I think "Blink" needs either a faster animation or a longer range. Should be instant and shouldnt have a slight animation delay upon arriving at the location -> Should be spammable to create a massive distance in short time.
2) Healing Depression is too much
- Needs to be dropped back to about ~30% from 50% otherwise healing classes have no role in PVP. 30% is roughly the DR boost classes gained from tenacity being added.
3) Life "leech" stat got nerfed too hard
- Things that steal life based upon damage got a double nerf because of higher DR AND healing depression
4) DC righteousness debuff
- Affects things like artifact heals, this should not happen.
5) Itemization on the PVP gear sucks!
- DC gear with lifesteal? GWF T2.5 gear is worthless because the 2pc is crit instead of HP - Should make ALL the PVP armor sets crit instead to avoid GWFs having a massive HP advantage (this will help balance the class ALOT -3600 maximum possible HP). GF T2.5 gear is worthless - Tactician Gear should have deflect NOT Recovery(like the T2 version) The Preserver should have HP, Conqueror should have either regen or HP at the loss of Recovery.
- I think more sets should have HP, not just the one... Same with Regen (like my post says above)
- Should be able to mix and match sets, and have it count towards the set bonuses for each tier. Could have 2 of 1 profound set and 1 of each of the other two and it should count as a 4 piece. If you went 2pc T2 and 2pc T2.5 it would NOT count. An example is 2 piece Profound Sentinel/2 piece profound destroyer would give a 4 piece set bonus not two 2pc bonuses. This would open alot more gear choice for players.
- Weapons should be included BACK into the set bonuses. Right now there is no point in having the weapons. This would open alot more gear choice for players.
- The rings/neck/belts are too weak. They need to be reverted back to how they were as reduced versions of the existing grand/ancients pieces with tenacity. Example is the Profound Necklace of Blessing should be: +140 power/crit/arp and +90 Tenacity. Each piece should be two "tiers" lower in stats as the PVE versions, but have tenacity for each tier.
6) elo rating should be visible!!!
- People strive for the highest ratings possible.
7) Premades should NOT be placed into the regular Que system.
- Should be placed in their own que pool of other premades that will only match you up with another 5 player group. This not only helps premades play other premades but helps avoid the PUG stomp that happens all the time. Elo wont fix premade versus PUG which is a MAJOR advantage for the premade.
- If you que with 4 or less - Regular "open" que system. If you que with 5 players your put into your own Que system that will ONLY match you with another premade.
What if premades were given an artificial rating boost for that match based on how many people are in the premade? That way high rated players that want to solo qeue would only see premades of players of less gear/skill making it a more even match. High gear/skill on one side, communication/teamplay advantage on the other. It would also make it more likely high level premades would always face each other.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
HRs Can push to around 55% DR without Boars or Oak Skin. Thats if no one is with 15 feet.
And this just proves you don't have any idea of what's the DMG reduction affected by the Arp.
Arp is effective ONLY versus DMG reduction given from DEFENSE & AC, nothing else is affected by Arp and in no way you can get more than 40% DMG RDC by AC & Defense (even with Oak Skin if you know what are DR)
And this just proves you don't have any idea of what's the DMG reduction affected by the Arp.
Arp is effective ONLY versus DMG reduction given from DEFENSE & AC, nothing else is affected by Arp and in no way you can get more than 40% DMG RDC by AC & Defense (even with Oak Skin if you know what are DR)
Now stay on topic.
Ty.
Lone Wolf class feature is affected by damage reduction. Tested it. With the new nature pvp gear, it is theoretically to get over 40% with AC+ Defense alone. Probably not necessarily a good idea, but possible. 2500 defense should get you yo 35% base DR though. The buffs are flat DR boosts, but aren't affected by ArPen. But 60% DR that is affected by ArPen is easily obtainable from range with 0 buffs.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I'm a BiS GWF and there is nothing stopping me now from killing a CW, their freeze duration is less than a 1 sec and there is no problem resisting their CC without even using my unstoppable.
They can't even chain their combos anymore because every time they try to "entangle" i just snap out of it very quickly and charge into them, not to mention how repel is now completely useless. I think tenacity is good tanking wise, but the CC resist part was way too far.
I suggest, as stox said, adding a "Control resistance ignored" stat on the CW gear.
I agree on everything especially the "control resistance ignored" stat.
Something needs to be done, enemies get out of entangling force or freeze in a blink of an eye and repel is just resisted 2 times out of 3 if not more.
Yesterday i played pvp with the devs and i'm sure they noticed this in first person. I even talked to Panderus about it, if a "control" wizard isn't able to control, the whole class lose it's own purpose in pvp.
Sorry, I have to call BS on this comment, even as OP as GWF is on live, my guild has proven running our rainbow team against sometimes 3 gwf vs our one gwf that gwf isnt that badly OP.
But with that being said , what the devs did in adventure hour on valentines day REALLLY scared me, they slapped on BiS gear and THOUGHT they were playing at top level, and were calling out "strategies" that made 0 sense and made my guild members laugh at how much they didnt understand the pvp system. This scares me because healing depression and tenacity are going to tear this game apart if they dont seriously rework the system.
SERIOUSLY, all they did was nerf the two hardest classes in the game to play(DC-CW), and gave TR and GWF a lopsided , almost annoyingly pointless damage nerf on parts of the class that WERENT the issue, instead of addressing the real problems with each individul class.
Ive wrote one to many posts criticizing the skill level that is determining the balance in this game, and what i thought of the dev's in game skill level, as well as other members in that match which might as well had been pugs (aside from iyon) my critiques on the skill level of that match cant be fit onto a forum page because there are so many noobish things that occured , I'd basically need a forum page dedicated to my ranting.
Solution:
Devs, 5v5 my guild, 5v5 synergy, 5v5 Dulce, or 5v5 a guild that dosent say "we have our home cap, we dont have to worry about the enemies cap atm" - sominator. You will be rudely awaken as to what real pvp is about in this game. And unless you guys feel like dedicating a month of your time to get good at pvp in your own game, you should ask for a video of top tier pvp with an ACT log to help make your analysis' and balance pvp.
Go ahead, call me out on this.
Give me ELO, Give me new game types and maps, or give me a new game
Dont break the combat system our pvp community already loves
Sorry, I have to call BS on this comment, even as OP as GWF is on live, my guild has proven running our rainbow team against sometimes 3 gwf vs our one gwf that gwf isnt that badly OP.
Your guild is an exception.
You're always in vent and have the luxury to call prones&targets and coordinate all times. Also you can stall or even kill GWF sometimes on your TR for example, and your DC can stall one as well.
Exceptions... again.
You judge by your own measure, but I'll judge with mine, which encompasses more than just the highest end.
I recommend once that you go on one CW on preview (pretty sure some CW guildie can lend you their account), and go against GWF. Try a team such as DC/CW/CW/TR/HR for example, and go against GWF/GWF/TR/CW/CW.
Please return and tell me how the experiment ended, thanks.
Because we gotta face the realities of random queues here, instead of living in the arranged climate of PMvsPM where you can set up encounters and rotate as needed.
You're always in vent and have the luxury to call prones&targets and coordinate all times. Also you can stall or even kill GWF sometimes on your TR for example, and your DC can stall one as well.
Exceptions... again.
You judge by your own measure, but I'll judge with mine, which encompasses more than just the highest end.
I recommend once that you go on one CW on preview (pretty sure some CW guildie can lend you their account), and go against GWF. Try a team such as DC/CW/CW/TR/HR for example, and go against GWF/GWF/TR/CW/CW.
Please return and tell me how the experiment ended, thanks.
Because we gotta face the realities of random queues here, instead of living in the arranged climate of PMvsPM where you can set up encounters and rotate as needed.
I own a CW pvp spec, ty, and Ive stated in many posts how hard it is to play cw and how it might be the hardest class in game to play, and I stated last post how they nerfed further. But, I made a point of stating they nerfed gwf in the wrong way
Atm my guilds CWs are able to 1 rotation a senti IF they can get their rotation in. However, due to threatening rush, cws cant escape any longer. Also, they nerfed fls which hurts two classes and WASNT THE ISSUE, the issue with gwf damage is that it stems from the marking feat (gives 15% more damage) and the ability to stack a lot of crit
Its a no brainer what the outcome is there...
And whats the point of bringing a DC? Cryptic affectively nerfed DC into oblivion, hell, sunburst dosent even work anymore!!! Even if they could heal themselves , they couldnt hold a point
Whats the point of bringing a cw? Cryptic deemed Cws arent allowed to control anymore , shard on tab is useless now and im beyond pist about these changes, I hope my anger is apperent through my posts
Like seriously!?!? Who asked for this new CC resist its so stupid
And because i havent complained enough about this
Why are they double dipping on damage nerfs? Adding tenacity and then further nerfing abilities? Its beyond pointless to use impact shot now
On live? Ill glady take on your expirement
And the fact that my guild is considered an exception is rather dull, if we can do it, that means its possible. And trust me its not that hard to do
I explained also these points in my prior posts and more , so please read more carefully because now these points are going to be buried in forum pages
Man now your really just buring all the points ive made with posts and points that ive already stated
You called BS on one of my posts. I replied. You continued. You made some points, good for you.
You think that only you can have opinions, or what?
Boring or no, this is a forum, and if you cannot understand random people reply to you, in a manner that might be boring or not to you, what can I say?
It's like "OMG, I discovered all these things about CW being weak, cause I'm the ONLY guy playing a CW, rest are just BS, they cannot come to same conclusions".
If you think your posts are less boring and special, you're plain wrong.
I don't even understand why are we having the pointless conversation. You offered your feedback - cool. I offered mine. Did I attack yours? You attacked mine, just because your opinion is different. If you wanna discuss the GWF post I made and argue against me (which I would find boring), please do, but it's hardly the point of this topic.
I just wanted to throw out my two copper pieces that I think the upcoming adding of the PVP stat "tenacity" is kind of pointless, and does nothing to address the current issues that exist within PVP. All it does right now is create a divide between PVP gear and non-PVP gear, pretty much requiring anyone who does PVP seriously at the end to have a set of "Tenacity" gear available to even compete seriously. This means that instead of being able to quickly and easily get into PVP when your in the mood, you've pretty much got to keep a set of PVP gear in the bank or in inventory and switch armor before you PVP. Given that space is at a premium, this represents something of a problem unless of course the idea is simply to try and get people to buy more space one way or another.
I myself pointed out that the game needed stats like "Hardness" and "Critigation" before within PVP but mainly in order to make defense oriented characters more viable. Ideally such stats should be built into all armor of certain classes, or gained as a class ability as part of game balance. The problem as I see things right now being that too much focus is placed on offense, if your PVPing as a character like a guardian fighter that is focused on defense and does comparatively little damage compared to other characters, it's kind of game breaking when a DPS character like a great weapon fighter or a trickster rogue can just pretty much turn your armor into tissue paper by having their character build properly. Very high levels of crit and armor penetration are fine against PVE mobs, and even expected, but in PVP it creates an entirely different set of problems. As a general rule all things being 'balanced' if you your attacks are doing the basic damage of a pillow in a sorority pillow fight, nobody else should be able to hit you much harder than that since you are after all stacking defense, and it should be every bit as useful and powerful as offensive stats. What's more defensive moves (again using the GF as an example) are largely pointless, as a character like a trickster rogue can pretty much run right up to your face and beat down your guard like nothing, massively out damaging your ability to "counter poke" with a guard raised, when conceptually that should probably be suicide, requiring the rogue to you know... play like a rogue, and have to find ways to get around the guard (which
shouldn't be as easy as it is now either).
Now, I know a lot of people won't agree with the specifics here (and understand also I'm being very general) but the point here is that a basic stat like "tenacity" seems based around raising all stats in PVP. This means that when say a defensive player and an offensive player meet in battle, it's still not equal statistically, after all if both are in say Tier 2 PVP sets packing equal tenacity you then run into a situation where it's the same exact problem, as crit and armor penetration are going to rip through the defensive stats.
One of the selling points of Neverwinter PVP was to make this fairly approachable if I remember when the game launched, and really creating these kinds of "gear divides" is just going to make PVP an increasingly specialty sub-game. If things go this way, it should probably be removed from daily AD quest validity at the very least because it's no longer something your typical player is going to be able to just put into their play schedule. At the very least it becomes more of a chore of the whole "gee, I need to go get my Tenacity suit on just to run my 4 PVP rounds". Ultimatly a problem just as big as Cryptic STILL not having segregated the PVP queues for solo players/PUGs and pre-made groups which should have happened on day #1 which I believe has itself done a lot to prevent PVP from being as popular as Neverwinter seemed to be striving for by opening it up to nearly everyone.
This is also why I make the point about "pure defense" in PVP, sure it's possible to build say a Guardian Fighter *just* for PVP, but then it won't be a dedicated tank (though it might be passable). If you don't want to basically turn your tank into some kind of a hybrid where things are a little more difficult in your intended role, you shouldn't be penalized in PVP.
Towards that end I've been of the opinion that probably the fastest way to balance things in the short term is to give the Guardian Fighter very specifically a huge passive innate ability that reduces the effectiveness of armor penetration and critical strikes against him all the time in PVP. Something that doesn't apply to other characters that aren't full time tanks (for example the GWF can sort of tank, but that's not his thing, also having a lot of offense, so it wouldn't really apply, a similar ability might be added to other defense specialized characters in the future). What's more I also think the way "guard" works in PVP needs to be adjusted, taking far less damage from player attacks than it does from monster attacks, and almost no damage at all from ranged attacks (sort of stalemating ranged characters that can easily run away even from charge based moves). In PVE the guard is almost perfect, as when tanking or fighting monsters you need to balance your guarding with avoiding certain attacks, or even periodically taking a few on the chin (with your super heavy armor) while your guard meter comes back. In PVP it's kind of ridiculous when some ranger or rogue can just tear the thing down with rapid attacks, especially the former because arrows are something you'd expect a big huge shield to be able to stop easily (that is kind of the point), especially when your basically considering that your high end GF is supposed to be able to stand toe to toe with a Dragon (like the one at the end of Malabog's) while sidestepping it's breath weapon is advised, you can still stop it (for about half your guard meter if your at full) while another player that gets hit full force is usually a toasty pile on the ground. Great ability PVE for a tank, works as intended, but when you consider some dude plinking away with a bow or a pair of daggers is overcoming that like it's virtually a joke, you need to start seriously re-consider how the core game concepts are working together. As that is the whole mechanic a GF is based around, and for which he gives up a lot of the flashy offensive coolness other characters have, it should be just as incredible in PVP as in PVE.
Just my thoughts on the subject. The central point here is that I do not think Tenacity will achieve anything in terms of PVP other than to create an even larger divide between the PVE and PVP players, and create a headache for those that want to do both, while in turn not really changing the kinds of balance problems people like me have noticed because all it's doing is making the numbers bigger and math a little more complicated without changing the way things work.
As a basic quick fix I'd say that your typical GF should have something like 2400 hardness and critigation at 60 as an innate ability. This reducing the effective score of an attacker, with with the extra points becoming an effective boost to the GF's deflect and defense. That's a huge number, and intentionally, but it's considering the actual stats of high level players and potential for later game growth when we eventually see new ways to boost offensive stats, tier 3 armor, etc... which will probably come before any fundamental character redesigns. I'd also reduce the damage done to guard by 80% for melee, and 99% for ranged, making it impractical to attack from that direction, and encouraging characters based around positioning to have to seek position as opposed to simply being able to plink away and have to manage their offensive dodges/retreats for positioning rather than simply being able to use it to run away from charge moves. Basically if you get stuck against a GF face to face you should (eventually) lose but it should take a while. Rogues and GWFs should be made to rely on using their mobility to try and get behind the guy (especially considering slow movement) and ranged should especially be encouraged to do that.
both of you are right. I agree with both of your posts. in general though, this whole tenacity/healing depression <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is just ugh. Unnessecary and making the already alright pvp in this game even more complicated and undesirable to play.
And by how they are going about these changes, from thier playing in the preview, I can see that reflecting by how they play, and its obviously they dont know how to play the game as well as regular players.
This is what I've been saying and other people been saying.
Theres a reason why when I pvp, I dont use the pvp gear. None of it has the match up of stats that I want. I have a unique build and way of playing and none of those sets fit that, and the stat variation is too wide for some other characters I have.
this new tenacity stat narrows down the multitude of builds and ways to play, funneling most classes into cookie cutter builds and playstyles. That is what I dont like. Further more, its unnessecary, if they put in proper matchmaking, this tenacity wont even be needed. Thats all pvp at 60 needed. All pvp prior to 60 was as balanced as I've seen. Its only at 60 where it gets hectic because of the large gaps of power between people and groups.
Putting this tenacity stat just complicates everything further, and doesnt do much for anyone really. Now for people that used to be able to acheive what they can do in pve sets, are now pretty much required to have to have pvp sets to actually pvp now. Where before it didnt really matter what you had, as long as you had equipment that matched your playstyle and was strong enough (non greens)
1) Control Wizards are useless (I think pewpewpew saw this as well)
- Need either a control bonus or a -control resist stat that helps control powers NOT be resisted. Either that or CC resist removed from Tenacity. CC is a control wizards bread and butter, without it being reliable they are worthless....
- I think "Blink" needs either a faster animation or a longer range. Should be instant and shouldnt have a slight animation delay upon arriving at the location -> Should be spammable to create a massive distance in short time.
I agree with this 100% and also want to add that armor penetration needs to be fixed, a current list of non-working skills that are commonly used in PVP:
Conduit of Ice
last 2 hits of Magic Missile
Entangling Force
Storm Spell (confirmed it depends on whether the skill that procs it is affected by arm pen)
Icy Rays
Ray of Enfeeblement
Shard Slam (sometimes arm pen works and sometimes it doesn't???)
As for the sets, why is every set bonus recovery for the 2PC??? Useless!!!
2) Healing Depression is too much
- Needs to be dropped back to about ~30% from 50% otherwise healing classes have no role in PVP. 30% is roughly the DR boost classes gained from tenacity being added.
This has been discussed a ton, I think everyone agrees it should be scaled back to let people live a little longer but I see no acknowledgement from the devs on this.
3) Life "leech" stat got nerfed too hard
- Things that steal life based upon damage got a double nerf because of higher DR AND healing depression
Why is life steal affected at all as a "heal" when it is not affected by DC righteousness, maybe righteousness should affect it and it be another triple nerf to DCs. /sarcasm
4) DC righteousness debuff
- Affects things like artifact heals, this should not happen.
This also affects Boons and should not. Life steal is not affected by it, regen is not affected by it, so why should it affect my boon or artifact? You already nerfed healing to nothing for other classes in PVP, but it's twice as bad on a cleric with righteousness as well and we hate you for doing it...
5) Itemization on the PVP gear sucks!
- DC gear with lifesteal? GWF T2.5 gear is worthless because the 2pc is crit instead of HP - Should make ALL the PVP armor sets crit instead to avoid GWFs having a massive HP advantage (this will help balance the class ALOT -3600 maximum possible HP). GF T2.5 gear is worthless - Tactician Gear should have deflect NOT Recovery(like the T2 version) The Preserver should have HP, Conqueror should have either regen or HP at the loss of Recovery.
The stat allocations are a joke. Here's the set CWs want:
too. Here's the set we want:
HP
Regen
Power
Crit
Why? Because armor pen doesn't work for 90% of our PVP skills anyway and every class easily gets over our DR with their armor pen, and deflection is a terrible stat.
Here's the set DCs want:
HP
Regen
Defense
Deflection
Why? Because armor pen doesn't work for most cleric abilities either. Power and crit become almost useless for healing with healing depression, and we can't heal ourselves for anything because of righteousness on top of healing depression, so give us some survivability on the gear at least...
I'll just go ahead and say this, every class wants more hp and more regen for longer pvp fights, why is this so hard to understand? Where are these sets?
GWF should probably be:
hp
regen
defense
deflection
GWFs want:
hp regen
defense
crit
Now the 4pc bonus on GWF sets are a joke, especially the slow, the 2pc going from hp to crit a lot of GWFs will like. The problem with this class is that it needs to be balanced. I don't want this to turn into flames so I'll just say there have been many many suggestions to tone this class down, but currently they have the highest survivability and the highest damage of any class; there should be a tradeoff somewhere.
TR: impact show nerf was not needed, especially with tenacity. A TR properly built does little for damage, a TR built to hit hard will die to any decent PVP built toon. So you toned down a useful ability for the guys who take their PVE TRs into PVP, yes they do a ton of damage, but yes they die to everyone...
Now all the TR sets for profound got crit instead of life steal. Do you guys think TRs need more crit? They're so far into diminishing returns it's ridiculous. The nerfs to crit because of tenacity were hard, then you throw lifesteal on every set which as mentioned gets a double nerf as well. Where is the set with hp and regen? We want this.
HP
regen
recovery
armor pen
Seriously the modern TR has 2 stats they need to keep at reasonable levels to do damage and to stay hidden, and that's recovery and armor pen, and there isn't even a set to do it with. Again every class gets above the TR DR for defense, so why even have it on the sets?
HR:
HP
regen
deflect (because of the 4pc, although it's not really necessary since this 4pc set procs without even being hit and heals for far more than it should!)
crit/defense
Also for HRs, aimed shot and fox do way more damage than any skill should. Seriously aimed shot is like the hardest hitting thing in the game and it's an at-will... Fox says it only hits each target once (which would probably balance it) but that's not the case. Ranger encounters are supposed to be weak yet this is one of the strongest encounters in the game.
- I think more sets should have HP, not just the one... Same with Regen (like my post says above)
I said this too before I came to this part, glad we're on the same page.
- Should be able to mix and match sets, and have it count towards the set bonuses for each tier. Could have 2 of 1 profound set and 1 of each of the other two and it should count as a 4 piece. If you went 2pc T2 and 2pc T2.5 it would NOT count. An example is 2 piece Profound Sentinel/2 piece profound destroyer would give a 4 piece set bonus not two 2pc bonuses. This would open alot more gear choice for players.
- Weapons should be included BACK into the set bonuses. Right now there is no point in having the weapons. This would open alot more gear choice for players.
No one is going to use the PVP weapons or accessories you guys have included. These PVP weapons have less damage than they should and have no set bonuses... WTF?
- The rings/neck/belts are too weak. They need to be reverted back to how they were as reduced versions of the existing grand/ancients pieces with tenacity. Example is the Profound Necklace of Blessing should be: +140 power/crit/arp and +90 Tenacity. Each piece should be two "tiers" lower in stats as the PVE versions, but have tenacity for each tier.
I lol at these accessories. I like my defense slot necks that allow me to slot radiants for more life, I like my rings with 400+ regen since that will give me way more survivability than the little bit of tenacity gained by equipping these. Only bad players will be using these rings or the weapons in their current state...
6) elo rating should be visible!!!
- People strive for the highest ratings possible.
Yep.
7) Premades should NOT be placed into the regular Que system.
- Should be placed in their own que pool of other premades that will only match you up with another 5 player group. This not only helps premades play other premades but helps avoid the PUG stomp that happens all the time. Elo wont fix premade versus PUG which is a MAJOR advantage for the premade.
- If you que with 4 or less - Regular "open" que system. If you que with 5 players your put into your own Que system that will ONLY match you with another premade.
Yep.
My comments are colored above.
One of the biggest issues with this whole system, is now with tenacity the guys that come and play PVP will be further outgeared and destroyed harder than ever before. A certain match with the devs has shown how bad it can be even with tenacity gear and fully equipped, now imagine 6-9k gs pugs in these matches against guys geared like this. Now you can argue that shouldn't happen because of ELO, but what about guys with new toons who immediately throw 9s-10s and perfects and have boons done and everything before they even take their toons into pvp, you will see a lot more of these twinks who may just leave matches or lose to keep their rating down while smashing pugs to make themselves feel better.
Tenebrous damage is also not affected by tenacity. I doubt this is intended.
Soulforged should heal for the full amount, not be reduced by healing depression.
I notice a distinct lack of regen on gear and accessories, but guys no one is going to use these accessories when regen is still a great stat to have, they will just have to sacrifice that tenacity on like rings for 800+ regen on TR and HR for instance.
Devs, 5v5 my guild, 5v5 synergy, 5v5 Dulce, or 5v5 a guild that dosent say "we have our home cap, we dont have to worry about the enemies cap atm" - sominator. You will be rudely awaken as to what real pvp is about in this game. And unless you guys feel like dedicating a month of your time to get good at pvp in your own game, you should ask for a video of top tier pvp with an ACT log to help make your analysis' and balance pvp.
This is exactly what needs to happen , going by what I saw on that video it is quite clear that the development team really don't have a functioning grasp on how pvp works in this game , that isn't a bad thing as I wouldn't expect them to just because they happen to develop the game but if they want to make a solid pvp system that will work it is clear they seriously need to work closely with the dedicated pvp players in the top pvp guilds .
I think that GMGentlemancrush is incharge of the team working on the new tenacity stat so if that is the case he needs to get some sort of dialogue going with members of the top pvp guilds and set up some private chats or private playsessions with them so that between them they can roll out a pvp update that is actually worthwhile.
This is exactly what needs to happen , going by what I saw on that video it is quite clear that the development team really don't have a functioning grasp on how pvp works in this game , that isn't a bad thing as I wouldn't expect them to just because they happen to develop the game but if they want to make a solid pvp system that will work it is clear they seriously need to work closely with the dedicated pvp players in the top pvp guilds .
I think that GMGentlemancrush is incharge of the team working on the new tenacity stat so if that is the case he needs to get some sort of dialogue going with members of the top pvp guilds and set up some private chats or private playsessions with them so that between them they can roll out a pvp update that is actually worthwhile.
Precisely. That definitely needs to happen. Something needs to happen around that level.
What definitly doesnt need to happen, is this tenacity/healing depression nonsense getting shoved in.
Precisely. That definitely needs to happen. Something needs to happen around that level.
What definitly doesnt need to happen, is this tenacity/healing depression nonsense getting shoved in.
Well, I wrote a long, rambling post that just got merged into this one (as I did not realize there was already a thread) talking about a lot of things, but also the pointlessness of Tenacity.
The route the Devs seem to be going is pretty much doing nothing to address balance issues while making things more complicated. Tenacity that generally increases the general aspects of a character in all regards in PVP does nothing to address the issue of when those basic numbers were broken to begin with. All it does is make it so people need separate tenacity equipped gear sets to PVP, which means people won't be able to just queue for a few rounds here and there, they will have to store their PVP gear someplace and get changed (either that or PVP gear will be designed that trumps everything else, having at least equal stats to PVE gear + tenacity so people won't have to change, which pretty much screws everyone who took the time gearing up before now).
As someone who mains a GF at the moment, I will say one of my big problems in PVP is that it's become too easy for DPS to tear through block and armor. Critical hits, armor penetration, etc... it's just not fair to someone who is a dedicated tank and doesn't do a lot of damage due to having nearly everything in defense. Sure I could "respect" for PVP but then I couldn't PVE tank the way I want to, and would have to pay like $5 a pop whenever I want to change over my skills. Even so GF is supposed to be based around defense, I shouldn't have to respec to be more offensive in order to PVP, that defeats the purpose of the class, and honestly I still probably wouldn't be able to catch up with the serious DPS characters as far as this goes. As things stand right now PVP seems to almost exclusively depend on healing and damage output.
My basic argument is that to balance things out your going to need to examine each class individually and compare it to every other class, along with considering it's intended role within the PVE game and how that is going to apply to PVP. With the GF for example it's entire schtick is supposed to be defense, as a result it's guard should be pumped up substantially so some trickster rogue, GWF, or Hunter Ranger/Control Wizard can't just stand in front of you and batter down your guard with fairly minimal effort if they really want to. What's more even if he gets a clean shot, nobody should be able to drop 30-50% of your health with one good hit or combo when your tanked out (which I personally blame AP/Crit for) especially when even under ideal circumstances a GF certainly can't do the same thing anywhere nears as easily. Basically if you hit like your swinging a pillow, the hits you take should feel like a pillow (so to speak) the defensive fighter should get just as much "bang" out of defense as an attacker gets out of attack. As I see things it's pretty much a case where AP deflates the entire point of having high levels of protection in PVP. What's more ranged characters who can easily back up/dodge away from charges represent a problem, as it becomes way too easy for them to kite, especially when they can so easily batter down a guard while doing it.
My personal suggestion was that instead of messing around with tenacity and the like, passive modifiers should be added to classes like the GF (please note not every class needs them), giving the GF what some other games would call "critigation" or "hardness" as direct counterbalances to critical hit/severity and armor penetration and which apply only to PVP. Meaning that not only is the GF likely to have very high defensive attributes, those numbers also mean more in his case because they can't just be countered as easily as ones from a PVE monster.
With tenacity (and this applies to other situations as well I suppose) I fail to see the point at all. If say both a GF and a TR are packing say Tier 2 gear based around their play styles with equal amounts of tenacity attached, the situation stays the same, with the TR still shredding the armor like it's bloody tissue paper.
In parting (for anyone who has read this far) I will say that Cryptic needs to be careful here, VERY careful. Things are not working well, but making the wrong fixes is even worse. What's more PVP will always be a work in progress that will need to be tweaked a bit, especially as new gear, characters types, and abilities are added. Look at say what happened with the "Champions Online" PVP community as an example.
I'll also say that if I understand the hype when NW was being planned, part of the point of PVP in this game was to make it more approachable than a lot of other games, which I'm guessing is why there are even daily missions about doing it (and PVP reward boosting events every day) as opposed to a niche. As a result the last thing that needs to be listened to is a lot of people from "the big PvP guilds" because the level they play at is generally speaking not the level your average player is ever going to be fight at. Indeed one of the biggest changes that needs to be made is queue segregation specifically to keep those kinds of players and their pre-made groups away from the PUGs with the solo/casual players that do this kind of thing part time. That's a big part of the problem here to begin with, at the end of the day your never going to make everyone equal (heck, I'll even admit I'm not very good, especially as things are set up now), but at the same time you shouldn't be throwing guppies into the shark tank either, that tends to only be of lasting entertainment value for the sharks and has in the past wound up biting other MMOs rather hard in the long term. Once you chase a lot of people away from PVP in your game and poison them against it, getting them back into it is far, far, more difficult.
I'll also say that if I understand the hype when NW was being planned, part of the point of PVP in this game was to make it more approachable than a lot of other games, which I'm guessing is why there are even daily missions about doing it (and PVP reward boosting events every day) as opposed to a niche. As a result the last thing that needs to be listened to is a lot of people from "the big PvP guilds" because the level they play at is generally speaking not the level your average player is ever going to be fight at. Indeed one of the biggest changes that needs to be made is queue segregation specifically to keep those kinds of players and their pre-made groups away from the PUGs with the solo/casual players that do this kind of thing part time. That's a big part of the problem here to begin with, at the end of the day your never going to make everyone equal (heck, I'll even admit I'm not very good, especially as things are set up now), but at the same time you shouldn't be throwing guppies into the shark tank either, that tends to only be of lasting entertainment value for the sharks and has in the past wound up biting other MMOs rather hard in the long term. Once you chase a lot of people away from PVP in your game and poison them against it, getting them back into it is far, far, more difficult.
And solid point. Something I want to put emphasis on as I've said this as well. And they are on the verge of doing that last part (further than it has been already )
I'll also say that if I understand the hype when NW was being planned, part of the point of PVP in this game was to make it more approachable than a lot of other games, which I'm guessing is why there are even daily missions about doing it (and PVP reward boosting events every day) as opposed to a niche. As a result the last thing that needs to be listened to is a lot of people from "the big PvP guilds" because the level they play at is generally speaking not the level your average player is ever going to be fight at. Indeed one of the biggest changes that needs to be made is queue segregation specifically to keep those kinds of players and their pre-made groups away from the PUGs with the solo/casual players that do this kind of thing part time. That's a big part of the problem here to begin with, at the end of the day your never going to make everyone equal (heck, I'll even admit I'm not very good, especially as things are set up now), but at the same time you shouldn't be throwing guppies into the shark tank either, that tends to only be of lasting entertainment value for the sharks and has in the past wound up biting other MMOs rather hard in the long term. Once you chase a lot of people away from PVP in your game and poison them against it, getting them back into it is far, far, more difficult.
Very perceptive post.
I think perhaps the easiest (not to say that it would be EASY) way to deal with this situation is a combination of:
(i) An effective matchmaking systems that separates pre-mades from solo players and ELO-style rankings (which is being worked on.)
(ii) Trying to separate PvP from PvE to allow better balancing of classes. A dual spec option, one for PvE and one for PvP, would allow this.
Without (ii) trying to balance classes is going to be much more difficult. Tenacity is a potentially helpful additional balancing option, but it doesn't have the flexibility of a dual spec option.
EDIT: The reason for the dual spec is so that skills and feats can be balanced by having different damages/cool-downs/effects in PvE and PvP.
Comments
Changing it to, let's say, 15% of total health lost, would just make it the same regardless of the amount of HP. Which would be balanced.
I would also focus on regen "mitigation" through healing depression, with a lesser effect on healing powers such as restoring strike.
Quite simply, with cc reduced and healing depression applied, even the few ones who used RS in PvP, will switch to takedown. Else you wouldn't be able to land IBS and would also heal for a cheap amount. Not convenient. Not much since most GWFs already use takedown-FS-IBS. But still, would reduce the choice to 1 rotation only.
A question too: has any GWF tried to combine tenacity+steel grace+elven battle? Sounds like a lot of cc resistance piling up, on top of unstoppable.
Quite honestly, dont need it. When you can pop unstoppable every few seconds and become immune to prone/cc its a waste to slot an enchant that only works on about half the CC effects (meaning no prones) and only gives a resist instead of immune.
LOL tr's used to stack ArPEN, but then they took away our armor pen stat allocation on pvp gear... So now we can't get a good amount without getting 2 shotted from lack of survivability
Who has more/better GWFs wins.
So no worries, nothing changed.
HRs Can push to around 55% DR without Boars or Oak Skin. Thats if no one is with 15 feet.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
I was going to laugh, then I realized how true it was, so instead I made a GWF.
Yeah seems like the smart choice. Probably level one of each class, move enchants around as they become the FOTM OP class, have fun.
Certainly better than continue to play lame class.
More than that, sir.
Not really destroyed, i managed to survive and heal very well when i pvp in preview. This is because good pug teammates control all range classes for me so i can get rid healing depression debuff as soon as possible. Then after i did my capping i rush to higher platform where gwfs and gfs cannot do anything abt me, then i play like a healbot. But who knows if my team at those particular games are BIS team while opposite is trash-geared? How if they insist to kill me first? And out of 10 matches the probability of getting pug stomp is very high, the only impact to DC is there are less healing and survivability when we go sent, rendering astral shield useless except for its mitigation, sunburst unneeded due to high tenacity/control resist and a 300 hp per tick HW which lose to regen.
1) Control Wizards are useless (I think pewpewpew saw this as well)
- Need either a control bonus or a -control resist stat that helps control powers NOT be resisted. Either that or CC resist removed from Tenacity. CC is a control wizards bread and butter, without it being reliable they are worthless....
- I think "Blink" needs either a faster animation or a longer range. Should be instant and shouldnt have a slight animation delay upon arriving at the location -> Should be spammable to create a massive distance in short time.
2) Healing Depression is too much
- Needs to be dropped back to about ~30% from 50% otherwise healing classes have no role in PVP. 30% is roughly the DR boost classes gained from tenacity being added.
3) Life "leech" stat got nerfed too hard
- Things that steal life based upon damage got a double nerf because of higher DR AND healing depression
4) DC righteousness debuff
- Affects things like artifact heals, this should not happen.
5) Itemization on the PVP gear sucks!
- DC gear with lifesteal? GWF T2.5 gear is worthless because the 2pc is crit instead of HP - Should make ALL the PVP armor sets crit instead to avoid GWFs having a massive HP advantage (this will help balance the class ALOT -3600 maximum possible HP). GF T2.5 gear is worthless - Tactician Gear should have deflect NOT Recovery(like the T2 version) The Preserver should have HP, Conqueror should have either regen or HP at the loss of Recovery.
- I think more sets should have HP, not just the one... Same with Regen (like my post says above)
- Should be able to mix and match sets, and have it count towards the set bonuses for each tier. Could have 2 of 1 profound set and 1 of each of the other two and it should count as a 4 piece. If you went 2pc T2 and 2pc T2.5 it would NOT count. An example is 2 piece Profound Sentinel/2 piece profound destroyer would give a 4 piece set bonus not two 2pc bonuses. This would open alot more gear choice for players.
- Weapons should be included BACK into the set bonuses. Right now there is no point in having the weapons. This would open alot more gear choice for players.
- The rings/neck/belts are too weak. They need to be reverted back to how they were as reduced versions of the existing grand/ancients pieces with tenacity. Example is the Profound Necklace of Blessing should be: +140 power/crit/arp and +90 Tenacity. Each piece should be two "tiers" lower in stats as the PVE versions, but have tenacity for each tier.
6) elo rating should be visible!!!
- People strive for the highest ratings possible.
7) Premades should NOT be placed into the regular Que system.
- Should be placed in their own que pool of other premades that will only match you up with another 5 player group. This not only helps premades play other premades but helps avoid the PUG stomp that happens all the time. Elo wont fix premade versus PUG which is a MAJOR advantage for the premade.
- If you que with 4 or less - Regular "open" que system. If you que with 5 players your put into your own Que system that will ONLY match you with another premade.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Arp is effective ONLY versus DMG reduction given from DEFENSE & AC, nothing else is affected by Arp and in no way you can get more than 40% DMG RDC by AC & Defense (even with Oak Skin if you know what are DR)
Now stay on topic.
Ty.
Lone Wolf class feature is affected by damage reduction. Tested it. With the new nature pvp gear, it is theoretically to get over 40% with AC+ Defense alone. Probably not necessarily a good idea, but possible. 2500 defense should get you yo 35% base DR though. The buffs are flat DR boosts, but aren't affected by ArPen. But 60% DR that is affected by ArPen is easily obtainable from range with 0 buffs.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I agree on everything especially the "control resistance ignored" stat.
Something needs to be done, enemies get out of entangling force or freeze in a blink of an eye and repel is just resisted 2 times out of 3 if not more.
Yesterday i played pvp with the devs and i'm sure they noticed this in first person. I even talked to Panderus about it, if a "control" wizard isn't able to control, the whole class lose it's own purpose in pvp.
Sorry, I have to call BS on this comment, even as OP as GWF is on live, my guild has proven running our rainbow team against sometimes 3 gwf vs our one gwf that gwf isnt that badly OP.
But with that being said , what the devs did in adventure hour on valentines day REALLLY scared me, they slapped on BiS gear and THOUGHT they were playing at top level, and were calling out "strategies" that made 0 sense and made my guild members laugh at how much they didnt understand the pvp system. This scares me because healing depression and tenacity are going to tear this game apart if they dont seriously rework the system.
SERIOUSLY, all they did was nerf the two hardest classes in the game to play(DC-CW), and gave TR and GWF a lopsided , almost annoyingly pointless damage nerf on parts of the class that WERENT the issue, instead of addressing the real problems with each individul class.
Ive wrote one to many posts criticizing the skill level that is determining the balance in this game, and what i thought of the dev's in game skill level, as well as other members in that match which might as well had been pugs (aside from iyon) my critiques on the skill level of that match cant be fit onto a forum page because there are so many noobish things that occured , I'd basically need a forum page dedicated to my ranting.
Solution:
Devs, 5v5 my guild, 5v5 synergy, 5v5 Dulce, or 5v5 a guild that dosent say "we have our home cap, we dont have to worry about the enemies cap atm" - sominator. You will be rudely awaken as to what real pvp is about in this game. And unless you guys feel like dedicating a month of your time to get good at pvp in your own game, you should ask for a video of top tier pvp with an ACT log to help make your analysis' and balance pvp.
Go ahead, call me out on this.
Give me ELO, Give me new game types and maps, or give me a new game
Dont break the combat system our pvp community already loves
Your guild is an exception.
You're always in vent and have the luxury to call prones&targets and coordinate all times. Also you can stall or even kill GWF sometimes on your TR for example, and your DC can stall one as well.
Exceptions... again.
You judge by your own measure, but I'll judge with mine, which encompasses more than just the highest end.
I recommend once that you go on one CW on preview (pretty sure some CW guildie can lend you their account), and go against GWF. Try a team such as DC/CW/CW/TR/HR for example, and go against GWF/GWF/TR/CW/CW.
Please return and tell me how the experiment ended, thanks.
Because we gotta face the realities of random queues here, instead of living in the arranged climate of PMvsPM where you can set up encounters and rotate as needed.
I own a CW pvp spec, ty, and Ive stated in many posts how hard it is to play cw and how it might be the hardest class in game to play, and I stated last post how they nerfed further. But, I made a point of stating they nerfed gwf in the wrong way
Atm my guilds CWs are able to 1 rotation a senti IF they can get their rotation in. However, due to threatening rush, cws cant escape any longer. Also, they nerfed fls which hurts two classes and WASNT THE ISSUE, the issue with gwf damage is that it stems from the marking feat (gives 15% more damage) and the ability to stack a lot of crit
Its a no brainer what the outcome is there...
And whats the point of bringing a DC? Cryptic affectively nerfed DC into oblivion, hell, sunburst dosent even work anymore!!! Even if they could heal themselves , they couldnt hold a point
Whats the point of bringing a cw? Cryptic deemed Cws arent allowed to control anymore , shard on tab is useless now and im beyond pist about these changes, I hope my anger is apperent through my posts
Like seriously!?!? Who asked for this new CC resist its so stupid
And because i havent complained enough about this
Why are they double dipping on damage nerfs? Adding tenacity and then further nerfing abilities? Its beyond pointless to use impact shot now
On live? Ill glady take on your expirement
And the fact that my guild is considered an exception is rather dull, if we can do it, that means its possible. And trust me its not that hard to do
I explained also these points in my prior posts and more , so please read more carefully because now these points are going to be buried in forum pages
But on Preview, when I play my CW (tried at least 15-20 gear/spec/rotation combinations etc.), it feels like my live CW is a god.
This is how bad it is.
Man now your really just buring all the points ive made with posts and points that ive already stated
You think that only you can have opinions, or what?
Boring or no, this is a forum, and if you cannot understand random people reply to you, in a manner that might be boring or not to you, what can I say?
It's like "OMG, I discovered all these things about CW being weak, cause I'm the ONLY guy playing a CW, rest are just BS, they cannot come to same conclusions".
If you think your posts are less boring and special, you're plain wrong.
I don't even understand why are we having the pointless conversation. You offered your feedback - cool. I offered mine. Did I attack yours? You attacked mine, just because your opinion is different. If you wanna discuss the GWF post I made and argue against me (which I would find boring), please do, but it's hardly the point of this topic.
I myself pointed out that the game needed stats like "Hardness" and "Critigation" before within PVP but mainly in order to make defense oriented characters more viable. Ideally such stats should be built into all armor of certain classes, or gained as a class ability as part of game balance. The problem as I see things right now being that too much focus is placed on offense, if your PVPing as a character like a guardian fighter that is focused on defense and does comparatively little damage compared to other characters, it's kind of game breaking when a DPS character like a great weapon fighter or a trickster rogue can just pretty much turn your armor into tissue paper by having their character build properly. Very high levels of crit and armor penetration are fine against PVE mobs, and even expected, but in PVP it creates an entirely different set of problems. As a general rule all things being 'balanced' if you your attacks are doing the basic damage of a pillow in a sorority pillow fight, nobody else should be able to hit you much harder than that since you are after all stacking defense, and it should be every bit as useful and powerful as offensive stats. What's more defensive moves (again using the GF as an example) are largely pointless, as a character like a trickster rogue can pretty much run right up to your face and beat down your guard like nothing, massively out damaging your ability to "counter poke" with a guard raised, when conceptually that should probably be suicide, requiring the rogue to you know... play like a rogue, and have to find ways to get around the guard (which
shouldn't be as easy as it is now either).
Now, I know a lot of people won't agree with the specifics here (and understand also I'm being very general) but the point here is that a basic stat like "tenacity" seems based around raising all stats in PVP. This means that when say a defensive player and an offensive player meet in battle, it's still not equal statistically, after all if both are in say Tier 2 PVP sets packing equal tenacity you then run into a situation where it's the same exact problem, as crit and armor penetration are going to rip through the defensive stats.
One of the selling points of Neverwinter PVP was to make this fairly approachable if I remember when the game launched, and really creating these kinds of "gear divides" is just going to make PVP an increasingly specialty sub-game. If things go this way, it should probably be removed from daily AD quest validity at the very least because it's no longer something your typical player is going to be able to just put into their play schedule. At the very least it becomes more of a chore of the whole "gee, I need to go get my Tenacity suit on just to run my 4 PVP rounds". Ultimatly a problem just as big as Cryptic STILL not having segregated the PVP queues for solo players/PUGs and pre-made groups which should have happened on day #1 which I believe has itself done a lot to prevent PVP from being as popular as Neverwinter seemed to be striving for by opening it up to nearly everyone.
This is also why I make the point about "pure defense" in PVP, sure it's possible to build say a Guardian Fighter *just* for PVP, but then it won't be a dedicated tank (though it might be passable). If you don't want to basically turn your tank into some kind of a hybrid where things are a little more difficult in your intended role, you shouldn't be penalized in PVP.
Towards that end I've been of the opinion that probably the fastest way to balance things in the short term is to give the Guardian Fighter very specifically a huge passive innate ability that reduces the effectiveness of armor penetration and critical strikes against him all the time in PVP. Something that doesn't apply to other characters that aren't full time tanks (for example the GWF can sort of tank, but that's not his thing, also having a lot of offense, so it wouldn't really apply, a similar ability might be added to other defense specialized characters in the future). What's more I also think the way "guard" works in PVP needs to be adjusted, taking far less damage from player attacks than it does from monster attacks, and almost no damage at all from ranged attacks (sort of stalemating ranged characters that can easily run away even from charge based moves). In PVE the guard is almost perfect, as when tanking or fighting monsters you need to balance your guarding with avoiding certain attacks, or even periodically taking a few on the chin (with your super heavy armor) while your guard meter comes back. In PVP it's kind of ridiculous when some ranger or rogue can just tear the thing down with rapid attacks, especially the former because arrows are something you'd expect a big huge shield to be able to stop easily (that is kind of the point), especially when your basically considering that your high end GF is supposed to be able to stand toe to toe with a Dragon (like the one at the end of Malabog's) while sidestepping it's breath weapon is advised, you can still stop it (for about half your guard meter if your at full) while another player that gets hit full force is usually a toasty pile on the ground. Great ability PVE for a tank, works as intended, but when you consider some dude plinking away with a bow or a pair of daggers is overcoming that like it's virtually a joke, you need to start seriously re-consider how the core game concepts are working together. As that is the whole mechanic a GF is based around, and for which he gives up a lot of the flashy offensive coolness other characters have, it should be just as incredible in PVP as in PVE.
Just my thoughts on the subject. The central point here is that I do not think Tenacity will achieve anything in terms of PVP other than to create an even larger divide between the PVE and PVP players, and create a headache for those that want to do both, while in turn not really changing the kinds of balance problems people like me have noticed because all it's doing is making the numbers bigger and math a little more complicated without changing the way things work.
As a basic quick fix I'd say that your typical GF should have something like 2400 hardness and critigation at 60 as an innate ability. This reducing the effective score of an attacker, with with the extra points becoming an effective boost to the GF's deflect and defense. That's a huge number, and intentionally, but it's considering the actual stats of high level players and potential for later game growth when we eventually see new ways to boost offensive stats, tier 3 armor, etc... which will probably come before any fundamental character redesigns. I'd also reduce the damage done to guard by 80% for melee, and 99% for ranged, making it impractical to attack from that direction, and encouraging characters based around positioning to have to seek position as opposed to simply being able to plink away and have to manage their offensive dodges/retreats for positioning rather than simply being able to use it to run away from charge moves. Basically if you get stuck against a GF face to face you should (eventually) lose but it should take a while. Rogues and GWFs should be made to rely on using their mobility to try and get behind the guy (especially considering slow movement) and ranged should especially be encouraged to do that.
And by how they are going about these changes, from thier playing in the preview, I can see that reflecting by how they play, and its obviously they dont know how to play the game as well as regular players.
Theres a reason why when I pvp, I dont use the pvp gear. None of it has the match up of stats that I want. I have a unique build and way of playing and none of those sets fit that, and the stat variation is too wide for some other characters I have.
this new tenacity stat narrows down the multitude of builds and ways to play, funneling most classes into cookie cutter builds and playstyles. That is what I dont like. Further more, its unnessecary, if they put in proper matchmaking, this tenacity wont even be needed. Thats all pvp at 60 needed. All pvp prior to 60 was as balanced as I've seen. Its only at 60 where it gets hectic because of the large gaps of power between people and groups.
Putting this tenacity stat just complicates everything further, and doesnt do much for anyone really. Now for people that used to be able to acheive what they can do in pve sets, are now pretty much required to have to have pvp sets to actually pvp now. Where before it didnt really matter what you had, as long as you had equipment that matched your playstyle and was strong enough (non greens)
My comments are colored above.
One of the biggest issues with this whole system, is now with tenacity the guys that come and play PVP will be further outgeared and destroyed harder than ever before. A certain match with the devs has shown how bad it can be even with tenacity gear and fully equipped, now imagine 6-9k gs pugs in these matches against guys geared like this. Now you can argue that shouldn't happen because of ELO, but what about guys with new toons who immediately throw 9s-10s and perfects and have boons done and everything before they even take their toons into pvp, you will see a lot more of these twinks who may just leave matches or lose to keep their rating down while smashing pugs to make themselves feel better.
Tenebrous damage is also not affected by tenacity. I doubt this is intended.
Soulforged should heal for the full amount, not be reduced by healing depression.
I notice a distinct lack of regen on gear and accessories, but guys no one is going to use these accessories when regen is still a great stat to have, they will just have to sacrifice that tenacity on like rings for 800+ regen on TR and HR for instance.
Also, 1v1 queues please!
This is exactly what needs to happen , going by what I saw on that video it is quite clear that the development team really don't have a functioning grasp on how pvp works in this game , that isn't a bad thing as I wouldn't expect them to just because they happen to develop the game but if they want to make a solid pvp system that will work it is clear they seriously need to work closely with the dedicated pvp players in the top pvp guilds .
I think that GMGentlemancrush is incharge of the team working on the new tenacity stat so if that is the case he needs to get some sort of dialogue going with members of the top pvp guilds and set up some private chats or private playsessions with them so that between them they can roll out a pvp update that is actually worthwhile.
Precisely. That definitely needs to happen. Something needs to happen around that level.
What definitly doesnt need to happen, is this tenacity/healing depression nonsense getting shoved in.
Well, I wrote a long, rambling post that just got merged into this one (as I did not realize there was already a thread) talking about a lot of things, but also the pointlessness of Tenacity.
The route the Devs seem to be going is pretty much doing nothing to address balance issues while making things more complicated. Tenacity that generally increases the general aspects of a character in all regards in PVP does nothing to address the issue of when those basic numbers were broken to begin with. All it does is make it so people need separate tenacity equipped gear sets to PVP, which means people won't be able to just queue for a few rounds here and there, they will have to store their PVP gear someplace and get changed (either that or PVP gear will be designed that trumps everything else, having at least equal stats to PVE gear + tenacity so people won't have to change, which pretty much screws everyone who took the time gearing up before now).
As someone who mains a GF at the moment, I will say one of my big problems in PVP is that it's become too easy for DPS to tear through block and armor. Critical hits, armor penetration, etc... it's just not fair to someone who is a dedicated tank and doesn't do a lot of damage due to having nearly everything in defense. Sure I could "respect" for PVP but then I couldn't PVE tank the way I want to, and would have to pay like $5 a pop whenever I want to change over my skills. Even so GF is supposed to be based around defense, I shouldn't have to respec to be more offensive in order to PVP, that defeats the purpose of the class, and honestly I still probably wouldn't be able to catch up with the serious DPS characters as far as this goes. As things stand right now PVP seems to almost exclusively depend on healing and damage output.
My basic argument is that to balance things out your going to need to examine each class individually and compare it to every other class, along with considering it's intended role within the PVE game and how that is going to apply to PVP. With the GF for example it's entire schtick is supposed to be defense, as a result it's guard should be pumped up substantially so some trickster rogue, GWF, or Hunter Ranger/Control Wizard can't just stand in front of you and batter down your guard with fairly minimal effort if they really want to. What's more even if he gets a clean shot, nobody should be able to drop 30-50% of your health with one good hit or combo when your tanked out (which I personally blame AP/Crit for) especially when even under ideal circumstances a GF certainly can't do the same thing anywhere nears as easily. Basically if you hit like your swinging a pillow, the hits you take should feel like a pillow (so to speak) the defensive fighter should get just as much "bang" out of defense as an attacker gets out of attack. As I see things it's pretty much a case where AP deflates the entire point of having high levels of protection in PVP. What's more ranged characters who can easily back up/dodge away from charges represent a problem, as it becomes way too easy for them to kite, especially when they can so easily batter down a guard while doing it.
My personal suggestion was that instead of messing around with tenacity and the like, passive modifiers should be added to classes like the GF (please note not every class needs them), giving the GF what some other games would call "critigation" or "hardness" as direct counterbalances to critical hit/severity and armor penetration and which apply only to PVP. Meaning that not only is the GF likely to have very high defensive attributes, those numbers also mean more in his case because they can't just be countered as easily as ones from a PVE monster.
With tenacity (and this applies to other situations as well I suppose) I fail to see the point at all. If say both a GF and a TR are packing say Tier 2 gear based around their play styles with equal amounts of tenacity attached, the situation stays the same, with the TR still shredding the armor like it's bloody tissue paper.
In parting (for anyone who has read this far) I will say that Cryptic needs to be careful here, VERY careful. Things are not working well, but making the wrong fixes is even worse. What's more PVP will always be a work in progress that will need to be tweaked a bit, especially as new gear, characters types, and abilities are added. Look at say what happened with the "Champions Online" PVP community as an example.
I'll also say that if I understand the hype when NW was being planned, part of the point of PVP in this game was to make it more approachable than a lot of other games, which I'm guessing is why there are even daily missions about doing it (and PVP reward boosting events every day) as opposed to a niche. As a result the last thing that needs to be listened to is a lot of people from "the big PvP guilds" because the level they play at is generally speaking not the level your average player is ever going to be fight at. Indeed one of the biggest changes that needs to be made is queue segregation specifically to keep those kinds of players and their pre-made groups away from the PUGs with the solo/casual players that do this kind of thing part time. That's a big part of the problem here to begin with, at the end of the day your never going to make everyone equal (heck, I'll even admit I'm not very good, especially as things are set up now), but at the same time you shouldn't be throwing guppies into the shark tank either, that tends to only be of lasting entertainment value for the sharks and has in the past wound up biting other MMOs rather hard in the long term. Once you chase a lot of people away from PVP in your game and poison them against it, getting them back into it is far, far, more difficult.
And solid point. Something I want to put emphasis on as I've said this as well. And they are on the verge of doing that last part (further than it has been already )
Very perceptive post.
I think perhaps the easiest (not to say that it would be EASY) way to deal with this situation is a combination of:
(i) An effective matchmaking systems that separates pre-mades from solo players and ELO-style rankings (which is being worked on.)
(ii) Trying to separate PvP from PvE to allow better balancing of classes. A dual spec option, one for PvE and one for PvP, would allow this.
Without (ii) trying to balance classes is going to be much more difficult. Tenacity is a potentially helpful additional balancing option, but it doesn't have the flexibility of a dual spec option.
EDIT: The reason for the dual spec is so that skills and feats can be balanced by having different damages/cool-downs/effects in PvE and PvP.