both of you are right. I agree with both of your posts. in general though, this whole tenacity/healing depression HAMSTER is just ugh. Unnessecary and making the already alright pvp in this game even more complicated and undesirable to play.
And by how they are going about these changes, from thier playing in the preview, I can see that reflecting by how they play, and its obviously they dont know how to play the game as well as regular players.
This is what I've been saying and other people been saying.
Theres a reason why when I pvp, I dont use the pvp gear. None of it has the match up of stats that I want. I have a unique build and way of playing and none of those sets fit that, and the stat variation is too wide for some other characters I have.
this new tenacity stat narrows down the multitude of builds and ways to play, funneling most classes into cookie cutter builds and playstyles. That is what I dont like. Further more, its unnessecary, if they put in proper matchmaking, this tenacity wont even be needed. Thats all pvp at 60 needed. All pvp prior to 60 was as balanced as I've seen. Its only at 60 where it gets hectic because of the large gaps of power between people and groups.
Putting this tenacity stat just complicates everything further, and doesnt do much for anyone really. Now for people that used to be able to acheive what they can do in pve sets, are now pretty much required to have to have pvp sets to actually pvp now. Where before it didnt really matter what you had, as long as you had equipment that matched your playstyle and was strong enough (non greens)
1) Control Wizards are useless (I think pewpewpew saw this as well)
- Need either a control bonus or a -control resist stat that helps control powers NOT be resisted. Either that or CC resist removed from Tenacity. CC is a control wizards bread and butter, without it being reliable they are worthless....
- I think "Blink" needs either a faster animation or a longer range. Should be instant and shouldnt have a slight animation delay upon arriving at the location -> Should be spammable to create a massive distance in short time.
I agree with this 100% and also want to add that armor penetration needs to be fixed, a current list of non-working skills that are commonly used in PVP:
Conduit of Ice
last 2 hits of Magic Missile
Entangling Force
Storm Spell (confirmed it depends on whether the skill that procs it is affected by arm pen)
Icy Rays
Ray of Enfeeblement
Shard Slam (sometimes arm pen works and sometimes it doesn't???)
As for the sets, why is every set bonus recovery for the 2PC??? Useless!!!
2) Healing Depression is too much
- Needs to be dropped back to about ~30% from 50% otherwise healing classes have no role in PVP. 30% is roughly the DR boost classes gained from tenacity being added.
This has been discussed a ton, I think everyone agrees it should be scaled back to let people live a little longer but I see no acknowledgement from the devs on this.
3) Life "leech" stat got nerfed too hard
- Things that steal life based upon damage got a double nerf because of higher DR AND healing depression
Why is life steal affected at all as a "heal" when it is not affected by DC righteousness, maybe righteousness should affect it and it be another triple nerf to DCs. /sarcasm
4) DC righteousness debuff
- Affects things like artifact heals, this should not happen.
This also affects Boons and should not. Life steal is not affected by it, regen is not affected by it, so why should it affect my boon or artifact? You already nerfed healing to nothing for other classes in PVP, but it's twice as bad on a cleric with righteousness as well and we hate you for doing it...
5) Itemization on the PVP gear sucks!
- DC gear with lifesteal? GWF T2.5 gear is worthless because the 2pc is crit instead of HP - Should make ALL the PVP armor sets crit instead to avoid GWFs having a massive HP advantage (this will help balance the class ALOT -3600 maximum possible HP). GF T2.5 gear is worthless - Tactician Gear should have deflect NOT Recovery(like the T2 version) The Preserver should have HP, Conqueror should have either regen or HP at the loss of Recovery.
The stat allocations are a joke. Here's the set CWs want:
too. Here's the set we want:
HP
Regen
Power
Crit
Why? Because armor pen doesn't work for 90% of our PVP skills anyway and every class easily gets over our DR with their armor pen, and deflection is a terrible stat.
Here's the set DCs want:
HP
Regen
Defense
Deflection
Why? Because armor pen doesn't work for most cleric abilities either. Power and crit become almost useless for healing with healing depression, and we can't heal ourselves for anything because of righteousness on top of healing depression, so give us some survivability on the gear at least...
I'll just go ahead and say this, every class wants more hp and more regen for longer pvp fights, why is this so hard to understand? Where are these sets?
GWF should probably be:
hp
regen
defense
deflection
GWFs want:
hp regen
defense
crit
Now the 4pc bonus on GWF sets are a joke, especially the slow, the 2pc going from hp to crit a lot of GWFs will like. The problem with this class is that it needs to be balanced. I don't want this to turn into flames so I'll just say there have been many many suggestions to tone this class down, but currently they have the highest survivability and the highest damage of any class; there should be a tradeoff somewhere.
TR: impact show nerf was not needed, especially with tenacity. A TR properly built does little for damage, a TR built to hit hard will die to any decent PVP built toon. So you toned down a useful ability for the guys who take their PVE TRs into PVP, yes they do a ton of damage, but yes they die to everyone...
Now all the TR sets for profound got crit instead of life steal. Do you guys think TRs need more crit? They're so far into diminishing returns it's ridiculous. The nerfs to crit because of tenacity were hard, then you throw lifesteal on every set which as mentioned gets a double nerf as well. Where is the set with hp and regen? We want this.
HP
regen
recovery
armor pen
Seriously the modern TR has 2 stats they need to keep at reasonable levels to do damage and to stay hidden, and that's recovery and armor pen, and there isn't even a set to do it with. Again every class gets above the TR DR for defense, so why even have it on the sets?
HR:
HP
regen
deflect (because of the 4pc, although it's not really necessary since this 4pc set procs without even being hit and heals for far more than it should!)
crit/defense
Also for HRs, aimed shot and fox do way more damage than any skill should. Seriously aimed shot is like the hardest hitting thing in the game and it's an at-will... Fox says it only hits each target once (which would probably balance it) but that's not the case. Ranger encounters are supposed to be weak yet this is one of the strongest encounters in the game.
- I think more sets should have HP, not just the one... Same with Regen (like my post says above)
I said this too before I came to this part, glad we're on the same page.
- Should be able to mix and match sets, and have it count towards the set bonuses for each tier. Could have 2 of 1 profound set and 1 of each of the other two and it should count as a 4 piece. If you went 2pc T2 and 2pc T2.5 it would NOT count. An example is 2 piece Profound Sentinel/2 piece profound destroyer would give a 4 piece set bonus not two 2pc bonuses. This would open alot more gear choice for players.
- Weapons should be included BACK into the set bonuses. Right now there is no point in having the weapons. This would open alot more gear choice for players.
No one is going to use the PVP weapons or accessories you guys have included. These PVP weapons have less damage than they should and have no set bonuses... WTF?
- The rings/neck/belts are too weak. They need to be reverted back to how they were as reduced versions of the existing grand/ancients pieces with tenacity. Example is the Profound Necklace of Blessing should be: +140 power/crit/arp and +90 Tenacity. Each piece should be two "tiers" lower in stats as the PVE versions, but have tenacity for each tier.
I lol at these accessories. I like my defense slot necks that allow me to slot radiants for more life, I like my rings with 400+ regen since that will give me way more survivability than the little bit of tenacity gained by equipping these. Only bad players will be using these rings or the weapons in their current state...
6) elo rating should be visible!!!
- People strive for the highest ratings possible.
Yep.
7) Premades should NOT be placed into the regular Que system.
- Should be placed in their own que pool of other premades that will only match you up with another 5 player group. This not only helps premades play other premades but helps avoid the PUG stomp that happens all the time. Elo wont fix premade versus PUG which is a MAJOR advantage for the premade.
- If you que with 4 or less - Regular "open" que system. If you que with 5 players your put into your own Que system that will ONLY match you with another premade.
Yep.
My comments are colored above.
One of the biggest issues with this whole system, is now with tenacity the guys that come and play PVP will be further outgeared and destroyed harder than ever before. A certain match with the devs has shown how bad it can be even with tenacity gear and fully equipped, now imagine 6-9k gs pugs in these matches against guys geared like this. Now you can argue that shouldn't happen because of ELO, but what about guys with new toons who immediately throw 9s-10s and perfects and have boons done and everything before they even take their toons into pvp, you will see a lot more of these twinks who may just leave matches or lose to keep their rating down while smashing pugs to make themselves feel better.
Tenebrous damage is also not affected by tenacity. I doubt this is intended.
Soulforged should heal for the full amount, not be reduced by healing depression.
I notice a distinct lack of regen on gear and accessories, but guys no one is going to use these accessories when regen is still a great stat to have, they will just have to sacrifice that tenacity on like rings for 800+ regen on TR and HR for instance.
Devs, 5v5 my guild, 5v5 synergy, 5v5 Dulce, or 5v5 a guild that dosent say "we have our home cap, we dont have to worry about the enemies cap atm" - sominator. You will be rudely awaken as to what real pvp is about in this game. And unless you guys feel like dedicating a month of your time to get good at pvp in your own game, you should ask for a video of top tier pvp with an ACT log to help make your analysis' and balance pvp.
This is exactly what needs to happen , going by what I saw on that video it is quite clear that the development team really don't have a functioning grasp on how pvp works in this game , that isn't a bad thing as I wouldn't expect them to just because they happen to develop the game but if they want to make a solid pvp system that will work it is clear they seriously need to work closely with the dedicated pvp players in the top pvp guilds .
I think that GMGentlemancrush is incharge of the team working on the new tenacity stat so if that is the case he needs to get some sort of dialogue going with members of the top pvp guilds and set up some private chats or private playsessions with them so that between them they can roll out a pvp update that is actually worthwhile.
This is exactly what needs to happen , going by what I saw on that video it is quite clear that the development team really don't have a functioning grasp on how pvp works in this game , that isn't a bad thing as I wouldn't expect them to just because they happen to develop the game but if they want to make a solid pvp system that will work it is clear they seriously need to work closely with the dedicated pvp players in the top pvp guilds .
I think that GMGentlemancrush is incharge of the team working on the new tenacity stat so if that is the case he needs to get some sort of dialogue going with members of the top pvp guilds and set up some private chats or private playsessions with them so that between them they can roll out a pvp update that is actually worthwhile.
Precisely. That definitely needs to happen. Something needs to happen around that level.
What definitly doesnt need to happen, is this tenacity/healing depression nonsense getting shoved in.
Precisely. That definitely needs to happen. Something needs to happen around that level.
What definitly doesnt need to happen, is this tenacity/healing depression nonsense getting shoved in.
Well, I wrote a long, rambling post that just got merged into this one (as I did not realize there was already a thread) talking about a lot of things, but also the pointlessness of Tenacity.
The route the Devs seem to be going is pretty much doing nothing to address balance issues while making things more complicated. Tenacity that generally increases the general aspects of a character in all regards in PVP does nothing to address the issue of when those basic numbers were broken to begin with. All it does is make it so people need separate tenacity equipped gear sets to PVP, which means people won't be able to just queue for a few rounds here and there, they will have to store their PVP gear someplace and get changed (either that or PVP gear will be designed that trumps everything else, having at least equal stats to PVE gear + tenacity so people won't have to change, which pretty much screws everyone who took the time gearing up before now).
As someone who mains a GF at the moment, I will say one of my big problems in PVP is that it's become too easy for DPS to tear through block and armor. Critical hits, armor penetration, etc... it's just not fair to someone who is a dedicated tank and doesn't do a lot of damage due to having nearly everything in defense. Sure I could "respect" for PVP but then I couldn't PVE tank the way I want to, and would have to pay like $5 a pop whenever I want to change over my skills. Even so GF is supposed to be based around defense, I shouldn't have to respec to be more offensive in order to PVP, that defeats the purpose of the class, and honestly I still probably wouldn't be able to catch up with the serious DPS characters as far as this goes. As things stand right now PVP seems to almost exclusively depend on healing and damage output.
My basic argument is that to balance things out your going to need to examine each class individually and compare it to every other class, along with considering it's intended role within the PVE game and how that is going to apply to PVP. With the GF for example it's entire schtick is supposed to be defense, as a result it's guard should be pumped up substantially so some trickster rogue, GWF, or Hunter Ranger/Control Wizard can't just stand in front of you and batter down your guard with fairly minimal effort if they really want to. What's more even if he gets a clean shot, nobody should be able to drop 30-50% of your health with one good hit or combo when your tanked out (which I personally blame AP/Crit for) especially when even under ideal circumstances a GF certainly can't do the same thing anywhere nears as easily. Basically if you hit like your swinging a pillow, the hits you take should feel like a pillow (so to speak) the defensive fighter should get just as much "bang" out of defense as an attacker gets out of attack. As I see things it's pretty much a case where AP deflates the entire point of having high levels of protection in PVP. What's more ranged characters who can easily back up/dodge away from charges represent a problem, as it becomes way too easy for them to kite, especially when they can so easily batter down a guard while doing it.
My personal suggestion was that instead of messing around with tenacity and the like, passive modifiers should be added to classes like the GF (please note not every class needs them), giving the GF what some other games would call "critigation" or "hardness" as direct counterbalances to critical hit/severity and armor penetration and which apply only to PVP. Meaning that not only is the GF likely to have very high defensive attributes, those numbers also mean more in his case because they can't just be countered as easily as ones from a PVE monster.
With tenacity (and this applies to other situations as well I suppose) I fail to see the point at all. If say both a GF and a TR are packing say Tier 2 gear based around their play styles with equal amounts of tenacity attached, the situation stays the same, with the TR still shredding the armor like it's bloody tissue paper.
In parting (for anyone who has read this far) I will say that Cryptic needs to be careful here, VERY careful. Things are not working well, but making the wrong fixes is even worse. What's more PVP will always be a work in progress that will need to be tweaked a bit, especially as new gear, characters types, and abilities are added. Look at say what happened with the "Champions Online" PVP community as an example.
I'll also say that if I understand the hype when NW was being planned, part of the point of PVP in this game was to make it more approachable than a lot of other games, which I'm guessing is why there are even daily missions about doing it (and PVP reward boosting events every day) as opposed to a niche. As a result the last thing that needs to be listened to is a lot of people from "the big PvP guilds" because the level they play at is generally speaking not the level your average player is ever going to be fight at. Indeed one of the biggest changes that needs to be made is queue segregation specifically to keep those kinds of players and their pre-made groups away from the PUGs with the solo/casual players that do this kind of thing part time. That's a big part of the problem here to begin with, at the end of the day your never going to make everyone equal (heck, I'll even admit I'm not very good, especially as things are set up now), but at the same time you shouldn't be throwing guppies into the shark tank either, that tends to only be of lasting entertainment value for the sharks and has in the past wound up biting other MMOs rather hard in the long term. Once you chase a lot of people away from PVP in your game and poison them against it, getting them back into it is far, far, more difficult.
I'll also say that if I understand the hype when NW was being planned, part of the point of PVP in this game was to make it more approachable than a lot of other games, which I'm guessing is why there are even daily missions about doing it (and PVP reward boosting events every day) as opposed to a niche. As a result the last thing that needs to be listened to is a lot of people from "the big PvP guilds" because the level they play at is generally speaking not the level your average player is ever going to be fight at. Indeed one of the biggest changes that needs to be made is queue segregation specifically to keep those kinds of players and their pre-made groups away from the PUGs with the solo/casual players that do this kind of thing part time. That's a big part of the problem here to begin with, at the end of the day your never going to make everyone equal (heck, I'll even admit I'm not very good, especially as things are set up now), but at the same time you shouldn't be throwing guppies into the shark tank either, that tends to only be of lasting entertainment value for the sharks and has in the past wound up biting other MMOs rather hard in the long term. Once you chase a lot of people away from PVP in your game and poison them against it, getting them back into it is far, far, more difficult.
And solid point. Something I want to put emphasis on as I've said this as well. And they are on the verge of doing that last part (further than it has been already )
I'll also say that if I understand the hype when NW was being planned, part of the point of PVP in this game was to make it more approachable than a lot of other games, which I'm guessing is why there are even daily missions about doing it (and PVP reward boosting events every day) as opposed to a niche. As a result the last thing that needs to be listened to is a lot of people from "the big PvP guilds" because the level they play at is generally speaking not the level your average player is ever going to be fight at. Indeed one of the biggest changes that needs to be made is queue segregation specifically to keep those kinds of players and their pre-made groups away from the PUGs with the solo/casual players that do this kind of thing part time. That's a big part of the problem here to begin with, at the end of the day your never going to make everyone equal (heck, I'll even admit I'm not very good, especially as things are set up now), but at the same time you shouldn't be throwing guppies into the shark tank either, that tends to only be of lasting entertainment value for the sharks and has in the past wound up biting other MMOs rather hard in the long term. Once you chase a lot of people away from PVP in your game and poison them against it, getting them back into it is far, far, more difficult.
Very perceptive post.
I think perhaps the easiest (not to say that it would be EASY) way to deal with this situation is a combination of:
(i) An effective matchmaking systems that separates pre-mades from solo players and ELO-style rankings (which is being worked on.)
(ii) Trying to separate PvP from PvE to allow better balancing of classes. A dual spec option, one for PvE and one for PvP, would allow this.
Without (ii) trying to balance classes is going to be much more difficult. Tenacity is a potentially helpful additional balancing option, but it doesn't have the flexibility of a dual spec option.
EDIT: The reason for the dual spec is so that skills and feats can be balanced by having different damages/cool-downs/effects in PvE and PvP.
funny enough thats how my old game worked. its makes sense. I dont think i should hit people like i hit trash mobs....my thoughs are simple.
1. GS based matching system for pvp. (stops 7kgs people from being murdered by 18k gs people)
Match people 0-11k gs then 11k gs to the highest. Is it the perfect fix? no. But its more balanced then the current situation. see SIMPLE.
2. Do what needs to be done. What is that. Class balance. Yes i know its the most hated words for a developer to hear as well as a player, but it needs to be done. Game rules are simple. There should be no god mode classes. Its simple logic you cant give a person a hell of a lot of def,deflect, regen, a skill that makes them basically immune to damage and control. on top of that the ability to deal out a hell of a lot of damage. If that's not enough you can be prone and never able to do anything. Yep the GWF. The most senseless class construction I have ever seen in an mmo since Runes of Magic Chapter 3 scouts....How to balance it? Like one person said before in another post. Make unstoppable based on % of hp lost. (on all classes Cap deflection at 20%. Cap regen at a reasonable number as well.) SIMPLE. Adjust how prones work. No one should be prone to death....
3. The TR...not going in to details everyone knows as it is. However I don't like how they have been replaced by the gwf in pve for the most part. There is no way in hell a gwf should deal as much damage as a tr. If a class is an off tank it is a master of none. meaning. its not the best in defense nor the best in offense. The TR should be the leader of single target dps in pve. (im a cw and im staying this ugg). At the same time. Stealth should be capped to where it is not possible to constantly run with ITC. Thats just fail, and its not gaming. Also the fact that it basically kills off all control based damage is still. Okay if a skill makes it to where you cant be controlled that's fine. But that should have nothing to do with a person being basically immune to damage. No one should have a skill that makes them immune to damage. *spanks developers.
What I'm suggesting is not hard core adjustments just simple ones. Is it perfect? NO. But its a lot better than things are now. As many have stated the issue is not people not living long enough. Its that people cannot be killed....
I think perhaps the easiest (not to say that it would be EASY) way to deal with this situation is a combination of:
(i) An effective matchmaking systems that separates pre-mades from solo players and ELO-style rankings (which is being worked on.)
(ii) Trying to separate PvP from PvE to allow better balancing of classes. A dual spec option, one for PvE and one for PvP, would allow this.
Without (ii) trying to balance classes is going to be much more difficult. Tenacity is a potentially helpful additional balancing option, but it doesn't have the flexibility of a dual spec option.
EDIT: The reason for the dual spec is so that skills and feats can be balanced by having different damages/cool-downs/effects in PvE and PvP.
I like your idea. Given the way things have been in PVP im kinda shocked there is no matching system like that. But the issue is mainly the difference in power. Your idea with something like a GS based system would be pretty cool :-) The duel spec idea would be very nice. It would actually make them even more money in the long run because of respec token sells. I think lol
you know reading this thread it is making me ask one simple question,
Where do the low budget players fit in the picture, if people are having difficulty with p.enchants and such?
I mean, run around right now with 3 R7 silvery and all R6 radiants a Lesser vorp and lesser soulforge, on a right now less than par TR that frustrates the hell out of me as it is, build itself is fine gear not so much, in order to get the tenacity gear Im gonna have to farm for it, and based on the fact the only way to get triumph coins is to win a battle this , is not looking so promising to me.
I've been an avid supporter of Tenacity in hopes of balance, but more and more angles I look at it. the more and more i see that this isn't fixing the balance issue at all , probably more so making it , maybe worse.
and some people know how angry I get as it is, most of the time it's just frustration that I can't hold my own up against a much better geared player. if this works out the way its shaping up to, I am not sure i will be PVPing anymore, and that's a disappointment because i like a good honest fair fight. but if it stresses me out its no longer viable for my mentality to be once again the underdog player because I simply cant afford the costs it would require to make it viable.
I've been blaming players for this HAMSTER but it's not the players fault, they just want the same thing i do, to have fun. if tenacity makes it impossible for the underdog players to get anywhere in pvp, I can not see them continuing to fight a losing battle over and over. especailly if the losing battle is farming the gear to get more so on par,
I respect the efforts of balance the Dev's are attempting here. but I am growing concerned over the delivery now. but Seeing is believing and i guess i will see the facts when it goes live.
The only thing I can offer to this thread is the perspective of a pve player who hasn't pvped in neverwinter for a good few months but had really high hopes of using the addition of tenacity and a matchmaking system as a way back into pvp but I am losing hope in the new stat completely , all I see so far is that the tenacity just makes cleric and control wizard completely impossible to play or just pointless to play , what's the point of playing control wizard in pvp when every control ability has been rendered useless by Tenacity.
Panderus and Gentlemancrush need to get together with the members of the pvp community who know the game systems inside out and rework tenacity into a real pvp stat if you guys are so determined to introduce it into the game ,in it's current form it is the answer to a question that nobody asked.
For those of us who are geared...haven't we done our apprenticeship already??? we all spent some time getting owned in seconds and wondered how we would ever compete..and yet...here we are now...after months of grinding in PVE and PVP...at the top of our skills and geared to the teeth...and enjoying our PVP...so why the hell do you need to change it...because a **** snivelling lvl60 isn't gutsy enough to do the hard yards that the rest of us have done????...ffs..your older players have put the time and effort into supporting your game and now you go change the rules (yet again)...I still get owned sometimes if I stuff up...and I own sometimes if I am on my game...so it seems to me that PVP is just fine and balanced....I might swear at the current Senti GWF for not dying as quickly as I had planned or curse because that GF won't let me get up.....and yet 30 seconds later I am smiling as I hunt him down and lashing blade him into obscurity...he had his 15 seconds..and I had mine...average all your PVP games and you might just find the game is already balanced anyway...you have your ups...you WILL have your downs...so based on that...if it ain't broke DON'T FIX IT!!!!
The only thing I can offer to this thread is the perspective of a pve player who hasn't pvped in neverwinter for a good few months but had really high hopes of using the addition of tenacity and a matchmaking system as a way back into pvp but I am losing hope in the new stat completely , all I see so far is that the tenacity just makes cleric and control wizard completely impossible to play or just pointless to play , what's the point of playing control wizard in pvp when every control ability has been rendered useless by Tenacity.
Panderus and Gentlemancrush need to get together with the members of the pvp community who know the game systems inside out and rework tenacity into a real pvp stat if you guys are so determined to introduce it into the game ,in it's current form it is the answer to a question that nobody asked.
healing suppression seems like, maybe it would be a good thing, if it only effect classes like the GWF and their stuff, but yeah DC's that's a big *F* you to the DC's , I mean A DC cannot and i mean cannot do that great of damage as it is at all. They only can build a huge defensive build to surivive, you take away the healing capabilities that extremely ,,,, it makes them a Dead anchor in the water of the pvp ocean.
Snow said theres a 1600 regen cap? That sounds kinda funky to me. a stealth rogue like myself needs a Higher regen to hold up, but hmmm, if the tenacity works as it should I guess 1600 would be ok to get by on. if i understood that correctly?
in derp news i spent yesterday grinding pvp to farm glory for changes. thing is i was already 25k....
The caption above your head must have temporarily read ,,, ,Ohhhhhhhhh Snap! that sucks! ,, yeah i been capping out and spending some on a weapon here to add to my RAD ,, just to make sure i don't do the same thing.
For those of us who are geared...haven't we done our apprenticeship already??? we all spent some time getting owned in seconds and wondered how we would ever compete..and yet...here we are now...after months of grinding in PVE and PVP...at the top of our skills and geared to the teeth...and enjoying our PVP...so why the hell do you need to change it...because a **** snivelling lvl60 isn't gutsy enough to do the hard yards that the rest of us have done????...ffs..your older players have put the time and effort into supporting your game and now you go change the rules (yet again)...I still get owned sometimes if I stuff up...and I own sometimes if I am on my game...so it seems to me that PVP is just fine and balanced....I might swear at the current Senti GWF for not dying as quickly as I had planned or curse because that GF won't let me get up.....and yet 30 seconds later I am smiling as I hunt him down and lashing blade him into obscurity...he had his 15 seconds..and I had mine...average all your PVP games and you might just find the game is already balanced anyway...you have your ups...you WILL have your downs...so based on that...if it ain't broke DON'T FIX IT!!!!
Don't you find it boring to be on top with gear ,, nothing to work for or towards no goal other than just goin in and killing things, feels like a rebel without a cause to me. I mean , I struggle ,, but I been working slowly getting better enchants and still have goals. to me anyway goals are my driving force. Just seems,,,,, pointless if you have no cause for the fight.
and you talk like this game is years old anyway, it isnt that old, hell I played another MMO for 8 years. and they changed things every other month, spiced things up a bit if you ask me. i got bored with the game with it staying the same at its end which is what killed it, and what made me quit. quit looking at it as a slap in your face and look at it as a rebirth to a new beginning.
Im not supporting or naying tenacity till the proof is in the pudding and it goes live with its official version. I have my concerns about things even as a representative of the underdog players in this game but like I said i have to see what happens before i can judge. sure preivew server is the testing grounds but they do last minute tinkering on every patch.
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peskolyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
From what i see, a good TRs i close to be on par with a GWF, even being forced to fight on a point.
The issue is the CW, which is completely helpless. To me, it looks like they really should allow CWs to keep their control ability in PvP and increase their ability to get away from melee opponents a bit.
I'm curious about how are vs GFs and HRs.
Would be nice to see some vs with these classes. And also some testing on clerics.
@pando
That is my experience, I couldn't take on r9/10 3x legendary whale TRs, against good equally geared TRs the battles went the same way as they did for ayroux against that perm- killed him with 4% HP left after trollforged proc, it was really 50/50. My experiences on CW also match the ones in that video- pretty much just being destroyed in under 30sec by TRs/GWFs. Then again I played against the devs CW and it was a bit harder to kill them(dat BiS).
I'm gonna repeat myself again, leave GWF alone, buff CW and DC. TRs are doing fine they can kill any class/spec(apart from IV Sent) easily and against IV sents they still have a good 30-50% chance to win depending on spec. Every Trickster Rogtar in exec or perma-skillz spec(dem skillz) that is shouting on this thread is just a hypocrite. It's like a morbidly obese child looking at a skinny kid who started eating a lot of cake and shouting:"stop eating the cake! you will get fat!". We all know you guys just want the cake for yourself, don't believe me? Let's ask CWs, DCs and HRs if Tarster Rogs(dat skillz class) r balanced not op at all.
What would actually affect the game balance favourably is a defensive ability(or a buff of one such ability we already have) and nerf to healing depression(let's say 30-35%) on DCs.
Can't edit posts so I will write another thing. Currently on preview GWF sents or any other class/spec for that matter(apart from perma-skillz) cannot fight 1v2 for long. They get burned down veeeery quickly. That addresses the whole 1v3 tanking issue from live pretty adequately.
Yup, from what i've heard it's not longer possible to 1v2-3 and win or get away easily.
I'd give healing bonus and control bonus to CWs and DCs on PvP gear. Plus i'd increase their teleport- shift distance. Reduce by half threat rush range and things could get better, much better for them. A healing class that can't heal and a control class that can't control , makes no sense to me. And the result is what we see in the video: the CW can't deal enough DPS, can't get away, can't tank. He can just hold off a bit and die.
DC got 5%/7.5% healing bonus on T2/T2.5 pvp gears, but that is a very little when compared to righteosness (-40% heal mandatory debuff), HD (-50% heal pvp battle debuff) and Shadowtouched (-25% optional debuff). Is 7.5% more Healing the thing u ask for, pando??
No. Not really asking since i'm not a DC. Just saying that DCs need something to keep their "healer" role in PvP too. One thing is less-effective healing, another is "uneffective healing" (which is, if i got it right, what happens with healing depression).
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
This is the second time I ask this question and first time I asked it in the official tenacity thread, but that post was moved to this thread.
Question: Does the healing depression 50% also affect boons that trigger randomly? Say you have a boon that might trigger healing randomly?
Tenacity is not supposed to have from the start. First of all I'm playing as a tr . lashing blade had been nerf like 30-40% and now tenacity ? Wow this is just kinda dumb because of this what else is tr good for? Tr was actually a very fun class to play with and the only class that can bring crit out the most..and now this stupid things walk in than what else is tr good for. Tenacity is a big massive nerfing thing to all PvP lovers. Including me. Devs just took pitiful to those whinner that got own easily in PvP. They complain a lot because the truth is they did not realise they are just a mere 10-12k GS fighting a 15-17k GS player . and when they got pawn they complain this and that. Ya this may not even hurt a little to pve player but hurt PvP player a lot. And now a lot already going for perma tr in PvP. I am 100% sure there are gonna be a lot more rubbish whinner that will be crying for nerf again. And tr will be a dead class. Tenacity should not have be brought into PvP anyway. Stop taking pity on those whinner.
Tenacity is not supposed to have from the start. First of all I'm playing as a tr . lashing blade had been nerf like 30-40% and now tenacity ? Wow this is just kinda dumb because of this what else is tr good for? Tr was actually a very fun class to play with and the only class that can bring crit out the most..and now this stupid things walk in than what else is tr good for. Tenacity is a big massive nerfing thing to all PvP lovers. Including me. Devs just took pitiful to those whinner that got own easily in PvP. They complain a lot because the truth is they did not realise they are just a mere 10-12k GS fighting a 15-17k GS player . and when they got pawn they complain this and that. Ya this may not even hurt a little to pve player but hurt PvP player a lot. And now a lot already going for perma tr in PvP. I am 100% sure there are gonna be a lot more rubbish whinner that will be crying for nerf again. And tr will be a dead class. Tenacity should not have be brought into PvP anyway. Stop taking pity on those whinner.
I agree with everything here except when you got to talking about gear score. For gearscore dont mean that much at all. But the gear itself they wear and their opponents wear does.
Gear score is just a number and not an accurate representation of gear and skill.
Gear score is just a number and not an accurate representation of gear and skill.
really ? lol.
GS is the sum of ur deffensive and offensive stats , so high Gs mmeans high stats and high stats give you big advantage against a low GS .
and for the tenacity its for/against all the classes , not just TR . 10% less damage from Lashing blade is not a big deal , don't forget that you will recive 10% less damage too !
Comments
And by how they are going about these changes, from thier playing in the preview, I can see that reflecting by how they play, and its obviously they dont know how to play the game as well as regular players.
Theres a reason why when I pvp, I dont use the pvp gear. None of it has the match up of stats that I want. I have a unique build and way of playing and none of those sets fit that, and the stat variation is too wide for some other characters I have.
this new tenacity stat narrows down the multitude of builds and ways to play, funneling most classes into cookie cutter builds and playstyles. That is what I dont like. Further more, its unnessecary, if they put in proper matchmaking, this tenacity wont even be needed. Thats all pvp at 60 needed. All pvp prior to 60 was as balanced as I've seen. Its only at 60 where it gets hectic because of the large gaps of power between people and groups.
Putting this tenacity stat just complicates everything further, and doesnt do much for anyone really. Now for people that used to be able to acheive what they can do in pve sets, are now pretty much required to have to have pvp sets to actually pvp now. Where before it didnt really matter what you had, as long as you had equipment that matched your playstyle and was strong enough (non greens)
My comments are colored above.
One of the biggest issues with this whole system, is now with tenacity the guys that come and play PVP will be further outgeared and destroyed harder than ever before. A certain match with the devs has shown how bad it can be even with tenacity gear and fully equipped, now imagine 6-9k gs pugs in these matches against guys geared like this. Now you can argue that shouldn't happen because of ELO, but what about guys with new toons who immediately throw 9s-10s and perfects and have boons done and everything before they even take their toons into pvp, you will see a lot more of these twinks who may just leave matches or lose to keep their rating down while smashing pugs to make themselves feel better.
Tenebrous damage is also not affected by tenacity. I doubt this is intended.
Soulforged should heal for the full amount, not be reduced by healing depression.
I notice a distinct lack of regen on gear and accessories, but guys no one is going to use these accessories when regen is still a great stat to have, they will just have to sacrifice that tenacity on like rings for 800+ regen on TR and HR for instance.
Also, 1v1 queues please!
This is exactly what needs to happen , going by what I saw on that video it is quite clear that the development team really don't have a functioning grasp on how pvp works in this game , that isn't a bad thing as I wouldn't expect them to just because they happen to develop the game but if they want to make a solid pvp system that will work it is clear they seriously need to work closely with the dedicated pvp players in the top pvp guilds .
I think that GMGentlemancrush is incharge of the team working on the new tenacity stat so if that is the case he needs to get some sort of dialogue going with members of the top pvp guilds and set up some private chats or private playsessions with them so that between them they can roll out a pvp update that is actually worthwhile.
Precisely. That definitely needs to happen. Something needs to happen around that level.
What definitly doesnt need to happen, is this tenacity/healing depression nonsense getting shoved in.
Well, I wrote a long, rambling post that just got merged into this one (as I did not realize there was already a thread) talking about a lot of things, but also the pointlessness of Tenacity.
The route the Devs seem to be going is pretty much doing nothing to address balance issues while making things more complicated. Tenacity that generally increases the general aspects of a character in all regards in PVP does nothing to address the issue of when those basic numbers were broken to begin with. All it does is make it so people need separate tenacity equipped gear sets to PVP, which means people won't be able to just queue for a few rounds here and there, they will have to store their PVP gear someplace and get changed (either that or PVP gear will be designed that trumps everything else, having at least equal stats to PVE gear + tenacity so people won't have to change, which pretty much screws everyone who took the time gearing up before now).
As someone who mains a GF at the moment, I will say one of my big problems in PVP is that it's become too easy for DPS to tear through block and armor. Critical hits, armor penetration, etc... it's just not fair to someone who is a dedicated tank and doesn't do a lot of damage due to having nearly everything in defense. Sure I could "respect" for PVP but then I couldn't PVE tank the way I want to, and would have to pay like $5 a pop whenever I want to change over my skills. Even so GF is supposed to be based around defense, I shouldn't have to respec to be more offensive in order to PVP, that defeats the purpose of the class, and honestly I still probably wouldn't be able to catch up with the serious DPS characters as far as this goes. As things stand right now PVP seems to almost exclusively depend on healing and damage output.
My basic argument is that to balance things out your going to need to examine each class individually and compare it to every other class, along with considering it's intended role within the PVE game and how that is going to apply to PVP. With the GF for example it's entire schtick is supposed to be defense, as a result it's guard should be pumped up substantially so some trickster rogue, GWF, or Hunter Ranger/Control Wizard can't just stand in front of you and batter down your guard with fairly minimal effort if they really want to. What's more even if he gets a clean shot, nobody should be able to drop 30-50% of your health with one good hit or combo when your tanked out (which I personally blame AP/Crit for) especially when even under ideal circumstances a GF certainly can't do the same thing anywhere nears as easily. Basically if you hit like your swinging a pillow, the hits you take should feel like a pillow (so to speak) the defensive fighter should get just as much "bang" out of defense as an attacker gets out of attack. As I see things it's pretty much a case where AP deflates the entire point of having high levels of protection in PVP. What's more ranged characters who can easily back up/dodge away from charges represent a problem, as it becomes way too easy for them to kite, especially when they can so easily batter down a guard while doing it.
My personal suggestion was that instead of messing around with tenacity and the like, passive modifiers should be added to classes like the GF (please note not every class needs them), giving the GF what some other games would call "critigation" or "hardness" as direct counterbalances to critical hit/severity and armor penetration and which apply only to PVP. Meaning that not only is the GF likely to have very high defensive attributes, those numbers also mean more in his case because they can't just be countered as easily as ones from a PVE monster.
With tenacity (and this applies to other situations as well I suppose) I fail to see the point at all. If say both a GF and a TR are packing say Tier 2 gear based around their play styles with equal amounts of tenacity attached, the situation stays the same, with the TR still shredding the armor like it's bloody tissue paper.
In parting (for anyone who has read this far) I will say that Cryptic needs to be careful here, VERY careful. Things are not working well, but making the wrong fixes is even worse. What's more PVP will always be a work in progress that will need to be tweaked a bit, especially as new gear, characters types, and abilities are added. Look at say what happened with the "Champions Online" PVP community as an example.
I'll also say that if I understand the hype when NW was being planned, part of the point of PVP in this game was to make it more approachable than a lot of other games, which I'm guessing is why there are even daily missions about doing it (and PVP reward boosting events every day) as opposed to a niche. As a result the last thing that needs to be listened to is a lot of people from "the big PvP guilds" because the level they play at is generally speaking not the level your average player is ever going to be fight at. Indeed one of the biggest changes that needs to be made is queue segregation specifically to keep those kinds of players and their pre-made groups away from the PUGs with the solo/casual players that do this kind of thing part time. That's a big part of the problem here to begin with, at the end of the day your never going to make everyone equal (heck, I'll even admit I'm not very good, especially as things are set up now), but at the same time you shouldn't be throwing guppies into the shark tank either, that tends to only be of lasting entertainment value for the sharks and has in the past wound up biting other MMOs rather hard in the long term. Once you chase a lot of people away from PVP in your game and poison them against it, getting them back into it is far, far, more difficult.
And solid point. Something I want to put emphasis on as I've said this as well. And they are on the verge of doing that last part (further than it has been already )
Very perceptive post.
I think perhaps the easiest (not to say that it would be EASY) way to deal with this situation is a combination of:
(i) An effective matchmaking systems that separates pre-mades from solo players and ELO-style rankings (which is being worked on.)
(ii) Trying to separate PvP from PvE to allow better balancing of classes. A dual spec option, one for PvE and one for PvP, would allow this.
Without (ii) trying to balance classes is going to be much more difficult. Tenacity is a potentially helpful additional balancing option, but it doesn't have the flexibility of a dual spec option.
EDIT: The reason for the dual spec is so that skills and feats can be balanced by having different damages/cool-downs/effects in PvE and PvP.
1. GS based matching system for pvp. (stops 7kgs people from being murdered by 18k gs people)
Match people 0-11k gs then 11k gs to the highest. Is it the perfect fix? no. But its more balanced then the current situation. see SIMPLE.
2. Do what needs to be done. What is that. Class balance. Yes i know its the most hated words for a developer to hear as well as a player, but it needs to be done. Game rules are simple. There should be no god mode classes. Its simple logic you cant give a person a hell of a lot of def,deflect, regen, a skill that makes them basically immune to damage and control. on top of that the ability to deal out a hell of a lot of damage. If that's not enough you can be prone and never able to do anything. Yep the GWF. The most senseless class construction I have ever seen in an mmo since Runes of Magic Chapter 3 scouts....How to balance it? Like one person said before in another post. Make unstoppable based on % of hp lost. (on all classes Cap deflection at 20%. Cap regen at a reasonable number as well.) SIMPLE. Adjust how prones work. No one should be prone to death....
3. The TR...not going in to details everyone knows as it is. However I don't like how they have been replaced by the gwf in pve for the most part. There is no way in hell a gwf should deal as much damage as a tr. If a class is an off tank it is a master of none. meaning. its not the best in defense nor the best in offense. The TR should be the leader of single target dps in pve. (im a cw and im staying this ugg). At the same time. Stealth should be capped to where it is not possible to constantly run with ITC. Thats just fail, and its not gaming. Also the fact that it basically kills off all control based damage is still. Okay if a skill makes it to where you cant be controlled that's fine. But that should have nothing to do with a person being basically immune to damage. No one should have a skill that makes them immune to damage. *spanks developers.
What I'm suggesting is not hard core adjustments just simple ones. Is it perfect? NO. But its a lot better than things are now. As many have stated the issue is not people not living long enough. Its that people cannot be killed....
I like your idea. Given the way things have been in PVP im kinda shocked there is no matching system like that. But the issue is mainly the difference in power. Your idea with something like a GS based system would be pretty cool :-) The duel spec idea would be very nice. It would actually make them even more money in the long run because of respec token sells. I think lol
Where do the low budget players fit in the picture, if people are having difficulty with p.enchants and such?
I mean, run around right now with 3 R7 silvery and all R6 radiants a Lesser vorp and lesser soulforge, on a right now less than par TR that frustrates the hell out of me as it is, build itself is fine gear not so much, in order to get the tenacity gear Im gonna have to farm for it, and based on the fact the only way to get triumph coins is to win a battle this , is not looking so promising to me.
I've been an avid supporter of Tenacity in hopes of balance, but more and more angles I look at it. the more and more i see that this isn't fixing the balance issue at all , probably more so making it , maybe worse.
and some people know how angry I get as it is, most of the time it's just frustration that I can't hold my own up against a much better geared player. if this works out the way its shaping up to, I am not sure i will be PVPing anymore, and that's a disappointment because i like a good honest fair fight. but if it stresses me out its no longer viable for my mentality to be once again the underdog player because I simply cant afford the costs it would require to make it viable.
I've been blaming players for this HAMSTER but it's not the players fault, they just want the same thing i do, to have fun. if tenacity makes it impossible for the underdog players to get anywhere in pvp, I can not see them continuing to fight a losing battle over and over. especailly if the losing battle is farming the gear to get more so on par,
I respect the efforts of balance the Dev's are attempting here. but I am growing concerned over the delivery now. but Seeing is believing and i guess i will see the facts when it goes live.
Panderus and Gentlemancrush need to get together with the members of the pvp community who know the game systems inside out and rework tenacity into a real pvp stat if you guys are so determined to introduce it into the game ,in it's current form it is the answer to a question that nobody asked.
Here is my initial feedback:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?609791-Will-Foundry-PVP-Split-up-the-PvP-Community
healing suppression seems like, maybe it would be a good thing, if it only effect classes like the GWF and their stuff, but yeah DC's that's a big *F* you to the DC's , I mean A DC cannot and i mean cannot do that great of damage as it is at all. They only can build a huge defensive build to surivive, you take away the healing capabilities that extremely ,,,, it makes them a Dead anchor in the water of the pvp ocean.
The caption above your head must have temporarily read ,,, ,Ohhhhhhhhh Snap! that sucks! ,, yeah i been capping out and spending some on a weapon here to add to my RAD ,, just to make sure i don't do the same thing.
Don't you find it boring to be on top with gear ,, nothing to work for or towards no goal other than just goin in and killing things, feels like a rebel without a cause to me. I mean , I struggle ,, but I been working slowly getting better enchants and still have goals. to me anyway goals are my driving force. Just seems,,,,, pointless if you have no cause for the fight.
and you talk like this game is years old anyway, it isnt that old, hell I played another MMO for 8 years. and they changed things every other month, spiced things up a bit if you ask me. i got bored with the game with it staying the same at its end which is what killed it, and what made me quit. quit looking at it as a slap in your face and look at it as a rebirth to a new beginning.
Im not supporting or naying tenacity till the proof is in the pudding and it goes live with its official version. I have my concerns about things even as a representative of the underdog players in this game but like I said i have to see what happens before i can judge. sure preivew server is the testing grounds but they do last minute tinkering on every patch.
1862 = 12%
1384 = 10%
1240 = 9.3%
906 = 7.3%
Just checked. Anyone care to do the math?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-danZ5aY40
From what i see, a good TRs i close to be on par with a GWF, even being forced to fight on a point.
The issue is the CW, which is completely helpless. To me, it looks like they really should allow CWs to keep their control ability in PvP and increase their ability to get away from melee opponents a bit.
I'm curious about how are vs GFs and HRs.
Would be nice to see some vs with these classes. And also some testing on clerics.
That is my experience, I couldn't take on r9/10 3x legendary whale TRs, against good equally geared TRs the battles went the same way as they did for ayroux against that perm- killed him with 4% HP left after trollforged proc, it was really 50/50. My experiences on CW also match the ones in that video- pretty much just being destroyed in under 30sec by TRs/GWFs. Then again I played against the devs CW and it was a bit harder to kill them(dat BiS).
I'm gonna repeat myself again, leave GWF alone, buff CW and DC. TRs are doing fine they can kill any class/spec(apart from IV Sent) easily and against IV sents they still have a good 30-50% chance to win depending on spec. Every Trickster Rogtar in exec or perma-skillz spec(dem skillz) that is shouting on this thread is just a hypocrite. It's like a morbidly obese child looking at a skinny kid who started eating a lot of cake and shouting:"stop eating the cake! you will get fat!". We all know you guys just want the cake for yourself, don't believe me? Let's ask CWs, DCs and HRs if Tarster Rogs(dat skillz class) r balanced not op at all.
What would actually affect the game balance favourably is a defensive ability(or a buff of one such ability we already have) and nerf to healing depression(let's say 30-35%) on DCs.
I'd give healing bonus and control bonus to CWs and DCs on PvP gear. Plus i'd increase their teleport- shift distance. Reduce by half threat rush range and things could get better, much better for them. A healing class that can't heal and a control class that can't control , makes no sense to me. And the result is what we see in the video: the CW can't deal enough DPS, can't get away, can't tank. He can just hold off a bit and die.
Fights against the TRs were nice and balanced.
Question: Does the healing depression 50% also affect boons that trigger randomly? Say you have a boon that might trigger healing randomly?
I agree with everything here except when you got to talking about gear score. For gearscore dont mean that much at all. But the gear itself they wear and their opponents wear does.
Gear score is just a number and not an accurate representation of gear and skill.
really ? lol.
GS is the sum of ur deffensive and offensive stats , so high Gs mmeans high stats and high stats give you big advantage against a low GS .
and for the tenacity its for/against all the classes , not just TR . 10% less damage from Lashing blade is not a big deal , don't forget that you will recive 10% less damage too !