If we are talking objective based pvp, balance isn't something that adds to the game infact its something that takes away from the flavor of competition. Most pvp in an MMO is objective based, and most classes at the intital start of a game are very different and offer a wide arrange of skills to achieve success in objective based games.
The best example of this is GF and GWF, These classes at launch were separate things and at maximum gear very comparable to each other, although both are melee fighters they both had a variety of differing tactics. THE GWF had supperior mobility allowing them to escape death, their dmg was fairly high though their "combo" was a little more risky and less reliable than the GF. Their role In domination was best at moving to the enemys home cap and keeping it busy or back capping/intercepting back cappers.
The GF Worked then and still works the same at basically being your tank, the guy standing on the node, forever applying crowd control pressure on a node but being incredibly vulnerable to CC and strategies employing mobility. (Oppressor CWs, Ranged Impact shotting rogues.)
Now after mod 2 the classes have interchange some abilities, an obvious attempt at balancing. Since they are fighters this is congruent with the game however the change had adverse effects. The GF has now lost almost everything unique about the class except for their Shift ability, while the GWF excells at its orginal domination role, as well as the domination role of the GF.
Balance makes classes too dissimilar, variety and role definition/enhancement is what makes pvp fun and interesting. Fairness should be pvp prime concern, not balance. Instead of asking for "balance" you should elaborate more on how this "balance" will improve pvp fairness and variety. Like other mmo's that try too hard to balance each unique class the end result is typically a soup of relativly similar classes all doing the same thing. Please dont employ this strategy when adding further content to the game.
^ So much wrong in that post. Look at any MMO that had pvp that was at least decent, the classes were well balanced and had defined roles (DAoC was one of the best examples of this).
I'd like it if people were sorted by their gear score. If I'm GS 3k and in the level 40 range I don't want to be paired with some pay to win with 5-7k GS (nor do I want to play against them. In the former I have nothing to do and in the latter I can do barely anything except go for the petty victory of rooting their !<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in place while my team tries to not get killed by their GS 5-7k team). I want to play for fun with other people playing for fun.
The reason why GS is a terrible argument regards anything pvp is EXACTLY because if a player is GOOD at pve, they will have the gear to make their GS competitive in PVP. IMO, if you are playing the game "right" your gs K +fraction is at least equal to your level until right about level 30 where the level fractions should double in terms of gear score. Without spending a dime. Not a dime! In other words if your level 23 your gs should be at least 2,300. At 30 that fraction should double, eg. level 33 should be 3,600 GS. That applies up to lvl (x)5 (eg 35) where a level 35 should have a gs of 4k until lvl 41 where it should be at lest 4,200. And so on until the 50's where after 55 gs should be double overall levels. 12k at 60 is where you should be STARTING, in other words.
NWO is not an easy game. It is not a brain dead button masher. It is in fact one of the more complex games I have seen in awhile and not so much in terms of GS but in terms of overall BUILD (of which gs is only 1 component). I think people want to waltz through pvp the same way they have waltzed through pve up to that point and the first time their under-built toon gets its cabbage split by a well thought-out character they squeal, "zomg, pay2win, pay2win".
There are very few times in any game where this happens in my experience. Developing one usually means ignoring the other, and many of us don't want to be ignored with pve. Pvp is at best a diversion and a time killer to me, having it take front stage is a game killer.
Guild Wars.
It had a very meaty PvE section and tons of arenas where you could show off your PvP prowess in different ways from small 4x4 arenas to gigantic 16x16 arenas, to mid sized 8x8 tower defenses. If GW2 had kept the formula of GW1 instead of trying to be WoW I would've probably stuck with it...Actually the domination section of Neverwinter is very similar to the Alliance battles of Guild Wars. Just much smaller with less map variety.
regarding gwf, I disagree that pvp going to be 5 gwf x 5gwf. there are plenty of rogues there that do great, rangers are doing great too, and gf is still controlling the node better than any gwf anyday.
want to nerf gwf? fine, just make sure buff him in others areas that he is not dropped off node so easily, and that he cant kill anything like before patch.
because if i recall, right before patch, gwf was becoming close to useless in premades x premades due his potentials being easily canceled for being an easy target and not skill to drop ppl off point.
And top tier rangers wil be awesome to control gwfs as well due their root skills and high dps, as some gfs/dcs and good rogues can stall gwfs for long time, you just need stop to compare pugs with top tier gwfs, they really can crush many ppl at once due their better survivality.
it doesn't mean they behave the same way against top tier people from different classes.
regarding the content, yes. i want more pvp modes.
i want 1 x 1s, deathmatches, some massive guild x guild for good reward event, ranked pvp.
new maps. it would be awesome.
I would not say anything, but I'm really, really tired about hearing the only argument that these people who only play as gwf have.
First of all, I have a ranger with 16k gs perfect vorpal and rank 9 enchants, I have a CW with 15k gs, greater plague fire and rank 8 enchants, I also have a GWF witch I dont play anymore.
The reason why I dont play the gwf anymore is because its completaly broken, its completaly overpowered to the point I dont find fun at all to play with it. I love pvp, it is the thing I do mostly. And I'm really tired of reading people say that the ones that are complaing about gwf right now are pugs who do not have GS. That is not true.
If u are a gwf and u died to a ranger, U are the one without gs. Rangers are not doing great at pvp. Rangers are the weakest class on pvp right now, they are anoying because if u ignore them they will give lots of damage to you, assuming you are not a gwf, but that is all, anything that reach him, kills him, and if you are good, its easy to reach him even with all that rooting. A cw will let a ranger behind in thousands of damage with people coming for him or not. So no, rangers are not doing great! Rangers are the weakest class on pvp right now, they do excel on killing noobs, and they are easy to master, but they are bad, really bad.
Also a GF cannot control the noodle like a gwf in no possible way, piff, roll one and play with it. They do not endure 40% of what gwfs are enduring right now. All they can do is kick someone around, they have no comparisom at all with a gwf, gwf has more damage, more survival, same control and reachs anyone easier than the gf, so plz, plz do not say GFs are doing better, GFs are the second most useless class of the game at the moment.
Top tiers rangers cannot win gwfs, I have a top tier ranger, I can stand far away from him for lots of time whyle I scratch him, but I cant kill him at all, unless he is bad and not well equiped. All I can do is win time for my team and if a team has 2 top gwfs than the game is over. They are overpowered and they have to be nerfed. Pvp right now is a joke, premades are becoming anoying, I'm tired of facing lots of gwfs and I also do not play with my gwf because its not fun at all.
Wanna lear how to kill a ranger with your gwf? I'll tell u, lear how to use your avalanche of steal and u will find batles against them pathetic, as I do with my gwf. Nothing can stop a good gwf, and no class should be like that.
I do agree that rogues are doing great, personaly I do think they are a little overpowered too, but not mutch, perhaps a small CD on impact shot would already do the job. I also cannot find any reason at all for them to have 75% deflection severity, they gain it for free and they already gain more deflection chances from CHA, they should never gain sutch a deflection severity without expending any feat. But anyway, even being a little overpowered, even being able to stand 100% of the time on stealth, they are not destroying pvp, diferent from the gwf.
I do agree that rogues are doing great, personaly I do think they are a little overpowered too, but not mutch, perhaps a small CD on impact shot would already do the job. I also cannot find any reason at all for them to have 75% deflection severity, they gain it for free and they already gain more deflection chances from CHA, they should never gain sutch a deflection severity without expending any feat.
The main reason I can see for them having 75% deflecton severity is that they have the worst CC in the game so they have to have a way to mitigate the extra damage that will be coming their way compared to the other classes.
I do agree that rogues are doing great, personaly I do think they are a little overpowered too, but not mutch, perhaps a small CD on impact shot would already do the job. I also cannot find any reason at all for them to have 75% deflection severity, they gain it for free and they already gain more deflection chances from CHA, they should never gain sutch a deflection severity without expending any feat. But anyway, even being a little overpowered, even being able to stand 100% of the time on stealth, they are not destroying pvp, diferent from the gwf.
Rogues are plagued with a very peculiar problem that both benefits AND hinders them -- which, the melee animation sequences basically "root" the player during activation. Interestingly, this fact usually coincides with many other factors that generally discourage the fledgling rogue player from trying to build an 'orthodox' model of melee classes.
I won't explain everything since probably this specific topic deserves a separate thread; but to sum it all up, Rogues are generally discouraged from playing it in an "orthodox" melee style, and rather forced into what they have become now. Essentially, the most successful (and as a result, becoming the new FotM) form of Rogue builds are now something we may call, "Medium-distance Ranged with additional melee strikes", rather than melees with optional ranged powers.
This (relatively) recent trend, naturally combined itself with the heavy stealth-dependancy of former perma-stealth builds, and what we have now is an essentially a 1-vs-1 centered style of Rogue builds that maximize both safety and attacking prowess, and therefore becomes incredibly annoying and difficult to counter. Sometimes, plain impossible.
Frankly, I don't think the Rogues are OP, but I think the game mechanics are screwed. Whether people like it or not, perma-stealthing is an obvious overlook from the developers: I imagine none of them really thought someone would actually try to stack up on INT and recovery to keep the character totally invisible, while continuously harassing enemies from undetectable distance. Cryptic's known to have made same mistakes before (one of the obvious mistake being the recycling of the INT trait to effect recharge of powers, as they have done in Champions Online)
The way I see it, things actually need to be done in the opposite direction -- disallowing perma-stealth no matter how much stealth-filling powers are used, but the compensation being total invisibility regardless of distance. (...and in turn, the "Lantern" artifact granting total stealth-detection regardless of distance, for 6 seconds)
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I like this. Seriously. If you're afraid of PvP, go play Sims.
I know it sounded mean, but despite all of the complaining pvp is the most balanced, least glitchy, spammy, exploitable part of the game. It is the purest part of the game in that respect.
No, because then you'd have the d-bag griefer PVPers who would deliberately leave matches so that they can fall in XP and then join the lower level brackets in order to one-shot the lowbie players there.
Yes I remember in Halo 3 people would continously suicide to lose rank in order to obliterate lower skill levels.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited January 2014
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I know it sounded mean, but despite all of the complaining pvp is the most balanced, least glitchy, spammy, exploitable part of the game. It is the purest part of the game in that respect.
Maybe that is the reason why in 8 of 10 games people are leaving the matches and you won't end up 5v5 then and the matches have become a "wait somewhere until the time is up because no enemy is showing up anymore" game. Yeah makes perfect sense...
Maybe that is the reason why in 8 of 10 games people are leaving the matches and you won't end up 5v5 then and the matches have become a "wait somewhere until the time is up because no enemy is showing up anymore" game. Yeah makes perfect sense...
People feel free to leave, in my opinion, for these reasons:
1- Not real rewards. Let's be real, the rough AD you get from PvP dailies and the glory PoP items aren't appealing once you gear yourself up.
2- No bracket system. You are a casual player who wants to have some fun and suddenly you are against players decked out with rank 10s and perfects. No reason for you to stay as it would be a waste of time.
3- No penalties for leaving. This reason is the most important one but it wouldn't make sense to apply a penalty if reasons 1 & 2 are still there.
PvP in this game is something worst what iam see ...game is good but PvP kill this game
class balance for pvp 0 battle balance 0 PvP is total fail
It gets a lot better if you actually meet a team with even gear levels.
Although the big fad being GWFs nowadays (which really can tip the scale of the entire match), so long as gear level is similar you still can have a lot of fun in matches. Then, it really boils down to build and skill. In my case I find myself switching powers around for like 10~15 times a game according to the situation. It really needs a lot of thinking on what build/power selection you are going to use -- and that's where the PvP here does have potential of becoming something great.
...
But ofcourse.. lopsided gear levels.. a match starting without any hope of winning.. that's what's killing it.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited January 2014
. . .I do have to admit, I do have fun the rare times I do Domination PvP. My only quam is when the match is not well balanced. I've ended up many times either being up against a super-skilled and geared team or pitted against a team that has no hope because they are so under-skilled or geared, or both, in comparison to my team. In either case, I don't find these unbalanced matches very fun. I'm not sure what could be done, game mechanically speaking, to make this any better but something should be done for sure.
. . .I often wonder that if matches are made according to the gear-score of players? If so, is this checking a combined gear score figure for pre-mades? Also, if so, shouldn't it be made that once you enter the instance, you should then be unable to swap out gear?
. . .As well, are full pre-mades being placed against full pre-mades? If not, maybe they should. I find that usually pre-made teams are the ones that are well skilled and geared for PvP while pugs are often there just for the Daily AD and are more skilled and geared for PvE.
Maybe that is the reason why in 8 of 10 games people are leaving the matches and you won't end up 5v5 then and the matches have become a "wait somewhere until the time is up because no enemy is showing up anymore" game. Yeah makes perfect sense...
The majority of people leave because they built a character that is specced badly, put awful gear on it and are bad at playing it then they throw a hissyfit when they can't kill anyone on it.
The majority of people leave because they built a character that is specced badly, put awful gear on it and are bad at playing it then they throw a hissyfit when they can't kill anyone on it.
There's a difference, trapublican. The thing is, there are those people - affectionately called n00bs - in any game. However, these folks diverge into two distinct categories.
(1) Despite their lacking skills and gear, some of them slowly, but surely adjust to the learning curve and get better -- if given enough time and motivation -- and then they become a part of the PvP community.
(2) Others ragequit.
...The thing is, where PvP stands now in NW, it is simply brutal for not only (2), but (1) as well.
A steady stream of new players in (1) is what is needed for PvP to stay healthy... but as it is, many people in (1) feel just as much frustrated as those in (2), and therefore decide to just call it quits... and that's a really, really bad thing to happen in PvP communities.
The worst possible thing to happen is people turn elitist. They turn blind to what PvP is now, since they themselves are not plagued by its problems whether they got good gear, or skill, or both. They just laugh and ridicule and blame all the individual players for being lazy and sucky. In the end, they antagonize the "newbie" folk -- which is the sure and ultimate downfall of PvP in that particular game.
I've seen it happen countless times. There's a problem in game, the elite folk defend it, they say its the player's fault for not being skilled enough, or not playing the game for hours and hours to quick-farm gear, or plain spend money to buy it. In the end, those very players they ridicule just refuse to enter any game. The PvP dies. Nobody to play with anymore... and that's a sad thing to happen.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
. . .I do have to admit, I do have fun the rare times I do Domination PvP. My only quam is when the match is not well balanced. I've ended up many times either being up against a super-skilled and geared team or pitted against a team that has no hope because they are so under-skilled or geared, or both, in comparison to my team. In either case, I don't find these unbalanced matches very fun. I'm not sure what could be done, game mechanically speaking, to make this any better but something should be done for sure.
.
I agree that this game has a really fun combat mode and pvp sometimes (really rare.. at least is consistent with drop rates) is really fun , i look forward to the module 3 and i hope they gathered enough feedback to push this in the right direction.
A ladder pretty much solves the balancing i guess. One for solo play and another for premades or teams! This system is already in many games and it works great.
The majority of people leave because they built a character that is specced badly, put awful gear on it and are bad at playing it then they throw a hissyfit when they can't kill anyone on it.
No the majority - including me - leave because suddenly there is a permastealthing rogue around you and you can sit there with your full team and won't be able to kill him while he constantly annoys you with his knives or you beat with 3 people on a regen GWF that is not taking damage or rangers place there huge AOEs all the time on the pads that stay forever active or GWFs and GFs constantly kick you around and knock you down while you have 0 immunity and can do nothing but watch how you die... there are dozens of silly stuff in this game that makes people just leave and since GWFs now have the knockdowns from the GFs it has become even worse.
I think even low-geared players would stay in a match when they would have the feeling that they actually can compete. But seeing that you throw out all you have and the GWF is at nearly full health or you try to hit someone that you cannot see is not competetive. It is boring.
For example I leave when I see this: At the start of the match I go to closest pad. Maybe there are 1-2 others of my team as well. A rogue from opposite team does the same and you are hit by knives. You try to do something but he stays in stealth. Your health goes down slowly but it goes down. You run around, you wait, the rogue blinks in for a second, is immune and then is back into stealth again. 3 people wasting their time trying to hit the rogue while center pad is lost already and the whole enemy team is now on its way to you. Still fighting the rogue but he stays in stealth again throwing knives... seriously, why even stay in such matches??? As soon as I see a perma-stealthing rogue doing this kind of lame stuff (with the sole purpose to annoy people) I leave the match. I don't waste my time on those guys anymore because even if I would just walk away and cap another pad this lame gameplay would just continue at least 10 minutes.
For example I leave when I see this: At the start of the match I go to closest pad. Maybe there are 1-2 others of my team as well.
I leave when I see this. If more than one person goes to home rather than point 2, you will never win the match unless the other team is absolutely horrid.
Maybe that is the reason why in 8 of 10 games people are leaving the matches and you won't end up 5v5 then and the matches have become a "wait somewhere until the time is up because no enemy is showing up anymore" game. Yeah makes perfect sense...
The point, which you just sprung like a trap, is exactly that the pvp quitters are generally also the same who glitch dungeons and exploit the game as much as possible. Since you really can't glitch or exploit a pvp match for your win, people quit. They quit unless there is an assured win (in the same way glitching pve gets you the assured win).
I also want to point out that despite being a little mean HERE, in the match I am the first one on the dominating team to call for cap trading, "LET THEM CAP". I am the first one to try to and offer help/friend the no-quitters on a team that we squished, after the match. Whatever trash talking goes on during a match is part of sport, but part of sport is also good sportsman ship. If your team is losing let a little role-playing take you over and be the hero who refuses to surrender against unwinnable odds. If your team has crushed the other team and its like 820-69, and there is that last holdout trying to cap, let him go cap. Congratulate him on not being a quitter. Offer advice and so on.
. . .I do have to admit, I do have fun the rare times I do Domination PvP. My only quam is when the match is not well balanced. I've ended up many times either being up against a super-skilled and geared team or pitted against a team that has no hope because they are so under-skilled or geared, or both, in comparison to my team. In either case, I don't find these unbalanced matches very fun. I'm not sure what could be done, game mechanically speaking, to make this any better but something should be done for sure.
. . .I often wonder that if matches are made according to the gear-score of players? If so, is this checking a combined gear score figure for pre-mades? Also, if so, shouldn't it be made that once you enter the instance, you should then be unable to swap out gear?
. . .As well, are full pre-mades being placed against full pre-mades? If not, maybe they should. I find that usually pre-made teams are the ones that are well skilled and geared for PvP while pugs are often there just for the Daily AD and are more skilled and geared for PvE.
Just some random thoughts.
Premade vs premade auto que would probably be the best, easiest solution. FINALLY getting on a really good premade team and then going undefeated through a few dozen matches doesn't make you feel l33t it makes you really crave playing another good premade team, and maybe, just maybe, getting that match vs one of the true elite pvp guild premades.
I think one of the really central issues is the time investment/reward ratio. People will often quit if they don't immediately see that it is going to be a quick match that they will win. It is more efficient for them to just keep quing pugs till they find the right one. On the other side, people don't often like to let the brutally overwhelmed team cap because the match will take longer which means a greater time investment. So you almost end up with a system were "Joe Toon" will spam que matches until he gets into that match that is really quickly 60-4. Joe Toon does this over and over again. Some Joe Toons will end up in premades with a decent build, gear, team mates, so on. Now Joe Toon and his team roflstomp pugs and he refuses to let the brutalized losing team cap forthe same reasons. So the issue is systemic and mechanical. It can be fixed. The rewards can be tweaked to more heavily favor staying in a match/letting a brutalized team cap. Things like letting players from one team switch to the other team if that other is down a player or 4 would help. I know I would definitely switch teams if a player on my team isn't letting the other side cap in a lopsided winning match.
In my dreams there would be an additional currency, "Honor", for pvp. It would be the reward to off-set the current issue with time/reward, and be worth as much as "Glory". There would be an "honor pool" that any losing team got at the end of a match. The players that stay receive the share of honor that would have gone to the leavers had they stayed. Players on the winning team would receive Honor in progressive amounts in direct proportion to how close the match was. Choosing to switch sides to help the losing team (with less players) would be a big honor boost. So the time-efficiency incentive in a roflstomp would be removed almost entirely. Something else that could boost Honor would be the gear score gap between the two teams. Brave out the match vs the team that has twice your GS, you get twice the Honor.
That also has a nice ring :P "To Battle for Honor and Glory". Maybe I should post this idea as its own thread.
There is only one thing that can be done in order to make PvP enjoyable at the moment, until they fix it...
It's to remove the 'Team join' option, and everyone would join by themselves. The chances to get equally balanced teams are quite higher than now, and the phenomenon of lolpug-crushing will drop dramatically. However, this will irritate the top PvP guilds that want to PMvsPM, so I guess we'll never see something like that...
Bottomline, PvP is what it is right now...so if you find a reason to leave...leave.No matter how much I hate to say this, but some games aren't worth waiting for. This comes from someone that will never leave a match if there is even a 0.5% that this would be an interesting match.
There is only one thing that can be done in order to make PvP enjoyable at the moment, until they fix it...
It's to remove the 'Team join' option, and everyone would join by themselves. The chances to get equally balanced teams are quite higher than now, and the phenomenon of lolpug-crushing will drop dramatically. However, this will irritate the top PvP guilds that want to PMvsPM, so I guess we'll never see something like that...
Bottomline, PvP is what it is right now...so if you find a reason to leave...leave.No matter how much I hate to say this, but some games aren't worth waiting for. This comes from someone that will never leave a match if there is even a 0.5% that this would be an interesting match.
I've seen similar things happen in other games as well. Premades are mighty fun for regulars/guild members, but unfortunately spells disaster to almost ALL of the players who are active during that same time zone. It would be a good idea to make a separate queue for team joins, to always stress a priority on the matching system so it finds other premades.
Conversely, an automatic gear-bracketing that tries to match people's GS discrepancy within 2k difference limit might provide better results.
Things are actually more or less tolerable upto ~59 bracket. But once reaching 60 bracket all hell breaks loose. Perhaps the system may automatically categorize players, and try to match up people by; under 10k, 10~12k, 12~14k, 14~16k, and 16k+.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Things are actually more or less tolerable upto ~59 bracket. But once reaching 60 bracket all hell breaks loose. Perhaps the system may automatically categorize players, and try to match up people by; under 10k, 10~12k, 12~14k, 14~16k, and 16k+.
Anything would be better than the current situation, although a separation based on GS isn't always good. But yes it would make some more interesting games. Right now the situation is really bad. Most of the games end within seconds because they feature PMs or semi PMs (even 2-3 coordinated players have a huge advantage against full random teams) against PuGs.
The bad thing is that people don't see how PMs vs PUGs is bad for the game, and they keep doing it. I guess they choose the lesser of two evils, so I can't blame them...but bottomline is that something needs to be done with this and quickly.
Right now we are staring at an amazing game mechanic-wise, with a broken Dungeon Queue finder and a broken PvP system. So yeah, the only problems are not game based.
There is only one thing that can be done in order to make PvP enjoyable at the moment, until they fix it...
It's to remove the 'Team join' option, and everyone would join by themselves. The chances to get equally balanced teams are quite higher than now, and the phenomenon of lolpug-crushing will drop dramatically. However, this will irritate the top PvP guilds that want to PMvsPM, so I guess we'll never see something like that...
Bottomline, PvP is what it is right now...so if you find a reason to leave...leave.No matter how much I hate to say this, but some games aren't worth waiting for. This comes from someone that will never leave a match if there is even a 0.5% that this would be an interesting match.
Problem is, playing with guildies/friends is the only way to enjoy most mmo content. I'd take a guildie playing with no gear, completely naked, above Joe the Pugger, Joe doesn't say hi, doesn't follow directions, and may not even speak the same language as you. This means there can be no coordination, no planning, no strategy. If the only options were randoms in this game many many many people would leave the game as this feeling of mine is not uncommon.
Anything would be better than the current situation, although a separation based on GS isn't always good. But yes it would make some more interesting games. Right now the situation is really bad. Most of the games end within seconds because they feature PMs or semi PMs (even 2-3 coordinated players have a huge advantage against full random teams) against PuGs.
The bad thing is that people don't see how PMs vs PUGs is bad for the game, and they keep doing it. I guess they choose the lesser of two evils, so I can't blame them...but bottomline is that something needs to be done with this and quickly.
Right now we are staring at an amazing game mechanic-wise, with a broken Dungeon Queue finder and a broken PvP system. So yeah, the only problems are not game based.
I agree that the combat system itself, has a really good potential to become one of the better mmogs out there.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Problem is, playing with guildies/friends is the only way to enjoy most mmo content. I'd take a guildie playing with no gear, completely naked, above Joe the Pugger, Joe doesn't say hi, doesn't follow directions, and may not even speak the same language as you. This means there can be no coordination, no planning, no strategy. If the only options were randoms in this game many many many people would leave the game as this feeling of mine is not uncommon.
Nobody's saying premades should be disallowed. What we're saying is premades should fight other premades. Even up the level of competition, instead of release a pack of alligators into a pool of goldfish.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Nobody's saying premades should be disallowed. What we're saying is premades should fight other premades. Even up the level of competition, instead of release a pack of alligators into a pool of goldfish.
iv been making new toon and done like 15 to 20 t2 until i got all gear from chest and i did like 10 to 15 more coz i was bored.not one time i saw t2 armor drop not one time....just sayin how can u play pvp when making ad is close to imposibile for new players.
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If we are talking objective based pvp, balance isn't something that adds to the game infact its something that takes away from the flavor of competition. Most pvp in an MMO is objective based, and most classes at the intital start of a game are very different and offer a wide arrange of skills to achieve success in objective based games.
The best example of this is GF and GWF, These classes at launch were separate things and at maximum gear very comparable to each other, although both are melee fighters they both had a variety of differing tactics. THE GWF had supperior mobility allowing them to escape death, their dmg was fairly high though their "combo" was a little more risky and less reliable than the GF. Their role In domination was best at moving to the enemys home cap and keeping it busy or back capping/intercepting back cappers.
The GF Worked then and still works the same at basically being your tank, the guy standing on the node, forever applying crowd control pressure on a node but being incredibly vulnerable to CC and strategies employing mobility. (Oppressor CWs, Ranged Impact shotting rogues.)
Now after mod 2 the classes have interchange some abilities, an obvious attempt at balancing. Since they are fighters this is congruent with the game however the change had adverse effects. The GF has now lost almost everything unique about the class except for their Shift ability, while the GWF excells at its orginal domination role, as well as the domination role of the GF.
Balance makes classes too dissimilar, variety and role definition/enhancement is what makes pvp fun and interesting. Fairness should be pvp prime concern, not balance. Instead of asking for "balance" you should elaborate more on how this "balance" will improve pvp fairness and variety. Like other mmo's that try too hard to balance each unique class the end result is typically a soup of relativly similar classes all doing the same thing. Please dont employ this strategy when adding further content to the game.
The reason why GS is a terrible argument regards anything pvp is EXACTLY because if a player is GOOD at pve, they will have the gear to make their GS competitive in PVP. IMO, if you are playing the game "right" your gs K +fraction is at least equal to your level until right about level 30 where the level fractions should double in terms of gear score. Without spending a dime. Not a dime! In other words if your level 23 your gs should be at least 2,300. At 30 that fraction should double, eg. level 33 should be 3,600 GS. That applies up to lvl (x)5 (eg 35) where a level 35 should have a gs of 4k until lvl 41 where it should be at lest 4,200. And so on until the 50's where after 55 gs should be double overall levels. 12k at 60 is where you should be STARTING, in other words.
NWO is not an easy game. It is not a brain dead button masher. It is in fact one of the more complex games I have seen in awhile and not so much in terms of GS but in terms of overall BUILD (of which gs is only 1 component). I think people want to waltz through pvp the same way they have waltzed through pve up to that point and the first time their under-built toon gets its cabbage split by a well thought-out character they squeal, "zomg, pay2win, pay2win".
Jugger Conq GF
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Guild Wars.
It had a very meaty PvE section and tons of arenas where you could show off your PvP prowess in different ways from small 4x4 arenas to gigantic 16x16 arenas, to mid sized 8x8 tower defenses. If GW2 had kept the formula of GW1 instead of trying to be WoW I would've probably stuck with it...Actually the domination section of Neverwinter is very similar to the Alliance battles of Guild Wars. Just much smaller with less map variety.
If NCSoft can do it so can cryptic
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I would not say anything, but I'm really, really tired about hearing the only argument that these people who only play as gwf have.
First of all, I have a ranger with 16k gs perfect vorpal and rank 9 enchants, I have a CW with 15k gs, greater plague fire and rank 8 enchants, I also have a GWF witch I dont play anymore.
The reason why I dont play the gwf anymore is because its completaly broken, its completaly overpowered to the point I dont find fun at all to play with it. I love pvp, it is the thing I do mostly. And I'm really tired of reading people say that the ones that are complaing about gwf right now are pugs who do not have GS. That is not true.
If u are a gwf and u died to a ranger, U are the one without gs. Rangers are not doing great at pvp. Rangers are the weakest class on pvp right now, they are anoying because if u ignore them they will give lots of damage to you, assuming you are not a gwf, but that is all, anything that reach him, kills him, and if you are good, its easy to reach him even with all that rooting. A cw will let a ranger behind in thousands of damage with people coming for him or not. So no, rangers are not doing great! Rangers are the weakest class on pvp right now, they do excel on killing noobs, and they are easy to master, but they are bad, really bad.
Also a GF cannot control the noodle like a gwf in no possible way, piff, roll one and play with it. They do not endure 40% of what gwfs are enduring right now. All they can do is kick someone around, they have no comparisom at all with a gwf, gwf has more damage, more survival, same control and reachs anyone easier than the gf, so plz, plz do not say GFs are doing better, GFs are the second most useless class of the game at the moment.
Top tiers rangers cannot win gwfs, I have a top tier ranger, I can stand far away from him for lots of time whyle I scratch him, but I cant kill him at all, unless he is bad and not well equiped. All I can do is win time for my team and if a team has 2 top gwfs than the game is over. They are overpowered and they have to be nerfed. Pvp right now is a joke, premades are becoming anoying, I'm tired of facing lots of gwfs and I also do not play with my gwf because its not fun at all.
Wanna lear how to kill a ranger with your gwf? I'll tell u, lear how to use your avalanche of steal and u will find batles against them pathetic, as I do with my gwf. Nothing can stop a good gwf, and no class should be like that.
I do agree that rogues are doing great, personaly I do think they are a little overpowered too, but not mutch, perhaps a small CD on impact shot would already do the job. I also cannot find any reason at all for them to have 75% deflection severity, they gain it for free and they already gain more deflection chances from CHA, they should never gain sutch a deflection severity without expending any feat. But anyway, even being a little overpowered, even being able to stand 100% of the time on stealth, they are not destroying pvp, diferent from the gwf.
The main reason I can see for them having 75% deflecton severity is that they have the worst CC in the game so they have to have a way to mitigate the extra damage that will be coming their way compared to the other classes.
Rogues are plagued with a very peculiar problem that both benefits AND hinders them -- which, the melee animation sequences basically "root" the player during activation. Interestingly, this fact usually coincides with many other factors that generally discourage the fledgling rogue player from trying to build an 'orthodox' model of melee classes.
I won't explain everything since probably this specific topic deserves a separate thread; but to sum it all up, Rogues are generally discouraged from playing it in an "orthodox" melee style, and rather forced into what they have become now. Essentially, the most successful (and as a result, becoming the new FotM) form of Rogue builds are now something we may call, "Medium-distance Ranged with additional melee strikes", rather than melees with optional ranged powers.
This (relatively) recent trend, naturally combined itself with the heavy stealth-dependancy of former perma-stealth builds, and what we have now is an essentially a 1-vs-1 centered style of Rogue builds that maximize both safety and attacking prowess, and therefore becomes incredibly annoying and difficult to counter. Sometimes, plain impossible.
Frankly, I don't think the Rogues are OP, but I think the game mechanics are screwed. Whether people like it or not, perma-stealthing is an obvious overlook from the developers: I imagine none of them really thought someone would actually try to stack up on INT and recovery to keep the character totally invisible, while continuously harassing enemies from undetectable distance. Cryptic's known to have made same mistakes before (one of the obvious mistake being the recycling of the INT trait to effect recharge of powers, as they have done in Champions Online)
The way I see it, things actually need to be done in the opposite direction -- disallowing perma-stealth no matter how much stealth-filling powers are used, but the compensation being total invisibility regardless of distance. (...and in turn, the "Lantern" artifact granting total stealth-detection regardless of distance, for 6 seconds)
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I know it sounded mean, but despite all of the complaining pvp is the most balanced, least glitchy, spammy, exploitable part of the game. It is the purest part of the game in that respect.
Jugger Conq GF
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Yes I remember in Halo 3 people would continously suicide to lose rank in order to obliterate lower skill levels.
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Maybe that is the reason why in 8 of 10 games people are leaving the matches and you won't end up 5v5 then and the matches have become a "wait somewhere until the time is up because no enemy is showing up anymore" game. Yeah makes perfect sense...
People feel free to leave, in my opinion, for these reasons:
1- Not real rewards. Let's be real, the rough AD you get from PvP dailies and the glory PoP items aren't appealing once you gear yourself up.
2- No bracket system. You are a casual player who wants to have some fun and suddenly you are against players decked out with rank 10s and perfects. No reason for you to stay as it would be a waste of time.
3- No penalties for leaving. This reason is the most important one but it wouldn't make sense to apply a penalty if reasons 1 & 2 are still there.
class balance for pvp 0 battle balance 0 PvP is total fail
It gets a lot better if you actually meet a team with even gear levels.
Although the big fad being GWFs nowadays (which really can tip the scale of the entire match), so long as gear level is similar you still can have a lot of fun in matches. Then, it really boils down to build and skill. In my case I find myself switching powers around for like 10~15 times a game according to the situation. It really needs a lot of thinking on what build/power selection you are going to use -- and that's where the PvP here does have potential of becoming something great.
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But ofcourse.. lopsided gear levels.. a match starting without any hope of winning.. that's what's killing it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
. . .I often wonder that if matches are made according to the gear-score of players? If so, is this checking a combined gear score figure for pre-mades? Also, if so, shouldn't it be made that once you enter the instance, you should then be unable to swap out gear?
. . .As well, are full pre-mades being placed against full pre-mades? If not, maybe they should. I find that usually pre-made teams are the ones that are well skilled and geared for PvP while pugs are often there just for the Daily AD and are more skilled and geared for PvE.
Just some random thoughts.
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The majority of people leave because they built a character that is specced badly, put awful gear on it and are bad at playing it then they throw a hissyfit when they can't kill anyone on it.
There's a difference, trapublican. The thing is, there are those people - affectionately called n00bs - in any game. However, these folks diverge into two distinct categories.
(1) Despite their lacking skills and gear, some of them slowly, but surely adjust to the learning curve and get better -- if given enough time and motivation -- and then they become a part of the PvP community.
(2) Others ragequit.
...The thing is, where PvP stands now in NW, it is simply brutal for not only (2), but (1) as well.
A steady stream of new players in (1) is what is needed for PvP to stay healthy... but as it is, many people in (1) feel just as much frustrated as those in (2), and therefore decide to just call it quits... and that's a really, really bad thing to happen in PvP communities.
The worst possible thing to happen is people turn elitist. They turn blind to what PvP is now, since they themselves are not plagued by its problems whether they got good gear, or skill, or both. They just laugh and ridicule and blame all the individual players for being lazy and sucky. In the end, they antagonize the "newbie" folk -- which is the sure and ultimate downfall of PvP in that particular game.
I've seen it happen countless times. There's a problem in game, the elite folk defend it, they say its the player's fault for not being skilled enough, or not playing the game for hours and hours to quick-farm gear, or plain spend money to buy it. In the end, those very players they ridicule just refuse to enter any game. The PvP dies. Nobody to play with anymore... and that's a sad thing to happen.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I agree that this game has a really fun combat mode and pvp sometimes (really rare.. at least is consistent with drop rates) is really fun , i look forward to the module 3 and i hope they gathered enough feedback to push this in the right direction.
A ladder pretty much solves the balancing i guess. One for solo play and another for premades or teams! This system is already in many games and it works great.
No the majority - including me - leave because suddenly there is a permastealthing rogue around you and you can sit there with your full team and won't be able to kill him while he constantly annoys you with his knives or you beat with 3 people on a regen GWF that is not taking damage or rangers place there huge AOEs all the time on the pads that stay forever active or GWFs and GFs constantly kick you around and knock you down while you have 0 immunity and can do nothing but watch how you die... there are dozens of silly stuff in this game that makes people just leave and since GWFs now have the knockdowns from the GFs it has become even worse.
I think even low-geared players would stay in a match when they would have the feeling that they actually can compete. But seeing that you throw out all you have and the GWF is at nearly full health or you try to hit someone that you cannot see is not competetive. It is boring.
For example I leave when I see this: At the start of the match I go to closest pad. Maybe there are 1-2 others of my team as well. A rogue from opposite team does the same and you are hit by knives. You try to do something but he stays in stealth. Your health goes down slowly but it goes down. You run around, you wait, the rogue blinks in for a second, is immune and then is back into stealth again. 3 people wasting their time trying to hit the rogue while center pad is lost already and the whole enemy team is now on its way to you. Still fighting the rogue but he stays in stealth again throwing knives... seriously, why even stay in such matches??? As soon as I see a perma-stealthing rogue doing this kind of lame stuff (with the sole purpose to annoy people) I leave the match. I don't waste my time on those guys anymore because even if I would just walk away and cap another pad this lame gameplay would just continue at least 10 minutes.
The point, which you just sprung like a trap, is exactly that the pvp quitters are generally also the same who glitch dungeons and exploit the game as much as possible. Since you really can't glitch or exploit a pvp match for your win, people quit. They quit unless there is an assured win (in the same way glitching pve gets you the assured win).
I also want to point out that despite being a little mean HERE, in the match I am the first one on the dominating team to call for cap trading, "LET THEM CAP". I am the first one to try to and offer help/friend the no-quitters on a team that we squished, after the match. Whatever trash talking goes on during a match is part of sport, but part of sport is also good sportsman ship. If your team is losing let a little role-playing take you over and be the hero who refuses to surrender against unwinnable odds. If your team has crushed the other team and its like 820-69, and there is that last holdout trying to cap, let him go cap. Congratulate him on not being a quitter. Offer advice and so on.
Jugger Conq GF
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Premade vs premade auto que would probably be the best, easiest solution. FINALLY getting on a really good premade team and then going undefeated through a few dozen matches doesn't make you feel l33t it makes you really crave playing another good premade team, and maybe, just maybe, getting that match vs one of the true elite pvp guild premades.
I think one of the really central issues is the time investment/reward ratio. People will often quit if they don't immediately see that it is going to be a quick match that they will win. It is more efficient for them to just keep quing pugs till they find the right one. On the other side, people don't often like to let the brutally overwhelmed team cap because the match will take longer which means a greater time investment. So you almost end up with a system were "Joe Toon" will spam que matches until he gets into that match that is really quickly 60-4. Joe Toon does this over and over again. Some Joe Toons will end up in premades with a decent build, gear, team mates, so on. Now Joe Toon and his team roflstomp pugs and he refuses to let the brutalized losing team cap forthe same reasons. So the issue is systemic and mechanical. It can be fixed. The rewards can be tweaked to more heavily favor staying in a match/letting a brutalized team cap. Things like letting players from one team switch to the other team if that other is down a player or 4 would help. I know I would definitely switch teams if a player on my team isn't letting the other side cap in a lopsided winning match.
In my dreams there would be an additional currency, "Honor", for pvp. It would be the reward to off-set the current issue with time/reward, and be worth as much as "Glory". There would be an "honor pool" that any losing team got at the end of a match. The players that stay receive the share of honor that would have gone to the leavers had they stayed. Players on the winning team would receive Honor in progressive amounts in direct proportion to how close the match was. Choosing to switch sides to help the losing team (with less players) would be a big honor boost. So the time-efficiency incentive in a roflstomp would be removed almost entirely. Something else that could boost Honor would be the gear score gap between the two teams. Brave out the match vs the team that has twice your GS, you get twice the Honor.
That also has a nice ring :P "To Battle for Honor and Glory". Maybe I should post this idea as its own thread.
Jugger Conq GF
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It's to remove the 'Team join' option, and everyone would join by themselves. The chances to get equally balanced teams are quite higher than now, and the phenomenon of lolpug-crushing will drop dramatically. However, this will irritate the top PvP guilds that want to PMvsPM, so I guess we'll never see something like that...
Bottomline, PvP is what it is right now...so if you find a reason to leave...leave.No matter how much I hate to say this, but some games aren't worth waiting for. This comes from someone that will never leave a match if there is even a 0.5% that this would be an interesting match.
I've seen similar things happen in other games as well. Premades are mighty fun for regulars/guild members, but unfortunately spells disaster to almost ALL of the players who are active during that same time zone. It would be a good idea to make a separate queue for team joins, to always stress a priority on the matching system so it finds other premades.
Conversely, an automatic gear-bracketing that tries to match people's GS discrepancy within 2k difference limit might provide better results.
Things are actually more or less tolerable upto ~59 bracket. But once reaching 60 bracket all hell breaks loose. Perhaps the system may automatically categorize players, and try to match up people by; under 10k, 10~12k, 12~14k, 14~16k, and 16k+.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Anything would be better than the current situation, although a separation based on GS isn't always good. But yes it would make some more interesting games. Right now the situation is really bad. Most of the games end within seconds because they feature PMs or semi PMs (even 2-3 coordinated players have a huge advantage against full random teams) against PuGs.
The bad thing is that people don't see how PMs vs PUGs is bad for the game, and they keep doing it. I guess they choose the lesser of two evils, so I can't blame them...but bottomline is that something needs to be done with this and quickly.
Right now we are staring at an amazing game mechanic-wise, with a broken Dungeon Queue finder and a broken PvP system. So yeah, the only problems are not game based.
Problem is, playing with guildies/friends is the only way to enjoy most mmo content. I'd take a guildie playing with no gear, completely naked, above Joe the Pugger, Joe doesn't say hi, doesn't follow directions, and may not even speak the same language as you. This means there can be no coordination, no planning, no strategy. If the only options were randoms in this game many many many people would leave the game as this feeling of mine is not uncommon.
I agree that the combat system itself, has a really good potential to become one of the better mmogs out there.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Nobody's saying premades should be disallowed. What we're saying is premades should fight other premades. Even up the level of competition, instead of release a pack of alligators into a pool of goldfish.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The person I quoted said this,
That suggestion removes premades completely.