oh i was just showing what happens when equally geared enchants clash, i started attacking him because 5 secs prior to that i was down to soulforge after killing a cw so i was at 60% when just me and him left there if you notice.
but that gwf was easy I didn't even bother making my shots count i had full confidence i will eventually kill him, he ran wrong powers and had bad movement, typical with alot of gwfs.
I predicted gwfs will be the new QQ class back when people were discussing about rogue nerfs, if two equally skilled players meet, the GWF should always come on top, I look at unstoppable as ITC for rogue, and having ITC up every few secs is ridiculous, there should be some cooldown on that, gwfs should make unstoppable count and time their combos like the rest of the classes, instead they are just allowed to make tons of macro mistakes and get away with it.
there is no class at the moment that can sustain burst from 2 players at the top level, simply none. but at 1v1 gwf has the upper hand since we are talking about domination which forces you to stay near their swing range.
Good feedback and i cant agree more.
Playing mt TR - one fatal mistake against a good player and im dead.
Playing my GF - dont time rotations right, let them blink/itc/unstoppable and GG.
Playing my GWF - face tank and hit tab every few seconds. Cant be slowed/stunned/CCd and even though you DO have to be ontop of a player to use takedown, flourish follows most opponants when used right so they can get the stun, takedown if missed is a 3 sec CD. and Roar is OP as hell with tenes...
You worded it nicely, GWFs are allowed to make more mistakes which is probably why most end up not knowing how to do prper rotations... because they dont HAVE to know...
What do you think about my suggestion...
LESSEN determination gained from taking damage. Give MORE determination from DEALING damage.
This fixes the fact that Sents can unstop back to back to back and face tank everything.
Either that OR,
Put severe dim returns on the regen stat after say 750. Right now my testing its about 1200-1300 where it starts not becoming worth the tradeoff.
regen causes alot of builds to become troll builds, like Sent GWF for example. And the ever hated "perma stealth" LOL, build... Our CW sometimes runs a troll regen setup where he can tie GWFs on point as well, but its a 20-30min+ fight unless someone else comes and boring as hell....
if they bring it down to ITC cooldown time it will be fine, I ran into a unique gwf a month ago, he was using weird rotation which seemed weak but watching him play sparked an idea for me, a rotation that is more devastating than the current common one, I passed it to one of our gwfs I hope we will start seeing it soon. the point is when you look at gwf balance you usually take the powers into account, because you envision how the fight will go, my point is you can avoid the typical fight scenario if you play abit with the rotation.
if they bring it down to ITC cooldown time it will be fine, I ran into a unique gwf a month ago, he was using weird rotation which seemed weak but watching him play sparked an idea for me, a rotation that is more devastating than the current common one, I passed it to one of our gwfs I hope we will start seeing it soon. the point is when you look at gwf balance you usually take the powers into account, because you envision how the fight will go, my point is you can avoid the typical fight scenario if you play abit with the rotation.
I agree, this doesnt necessarily change the fact that unstoppable is pretty OP in pvp.
What you are saying is exactly why I slot Roar now instead of the typical setup. I could see other abilities being used such a leap or come and get it as well for anti-kiting, but roar+stunning flourish+takedown is already a pretty impressive combo.
I think even adjusting regen would change alot of the mechanics of this build and others, but it would also equally adjust everything making it harder to outlast a Sent GWF, but I think it would be a good start.
Like I said, if they nerf the Deter gained from taking damage by even 25% but if you JUST did that, NON sent builds get boned... so give them significant Deter gain for DEALING damage, this balances the builds some and even makes non-sent look a little more attractive.
I would love seeing multiple trees viable for pvp...
Not to mention Tanky regen GFs. They absolutely can.
Even perma stealth TRs can...i have seen a video of Click INT rogue somewhere of him stalling and killing 3 people alone while capping their home node. But i don't know where it is now.
It activates only after you take damage. I would say, at least 1/3 of your HP
ITC can be used even without taking damage, plus it's complemented by stealth and dodge roll immunity. GWFs have no stealth and sprint has no immunity against damage or cc.
Also: when a GWF goes unstoppable, you just have to keep the distance, since they can't attack from range. I'm not a regeneration build, yet i just do my rotation, and when they go unstoppable i disengage and circle them. They lose precious seconds trying to get me and their unstoppable goes to waste. On the other hand, a ITC rogue can still attack from range if you get away.
I wouldn't say the 2 abilities are the same, cause the 2 classes are very different.
Sure thing unstoppable can be considered OP on a sentinels with high regen build, but nerfing it again would just make any build that is not sentinel/ regen, made of paper.
I would rather nerf regeneration and put a cap at 1k hp per tick. Without regeneration increasing the damage he can take, a GWF can go unstoppable 2 times at best before getting killed. Any "normal" GWF build is far from being unkillable.
Nerf the build, not the Whole class. Play any GWF without the said sentinel/ regen setup, and i guarantee you will not think that Unstoppable is OP. The problem is, powerplayers discovered this undying build that puts together monster hp, monster regeneration and unstoppable in a deadly combo.
My personal experience: i decided on purpose to DO NOT run a sentinel/ regen tank (which can deal damage only slotting tenes, and i do not like tenebrous concept at all). I went full sentinel path but geared for damage and life steal to increase survivability. Unstoppable is my only passive defense, and i need it as hell since i have no way to avoid the Attacks coming at me, and i don't have 2k regeneration ticks when i reach 50% health. So i can tank a lot, BUT to do so i need to deal damage. And since i have slow encounter animations and only sprint to close gaps, it's something any non-tank class can counter.
Sure thing is when you have 37k hp, 2k regeneration ticks and high defense/ deflection, you do not need tactics or skills. But not all GWFs are like that.
About Roar: i still have to test it, but it bugs me that the only way to catch a CW or TR can be considered that 1 skill. Also, with a elven battle enchant slotted by the other player, i'm not sure about how effective it would be. I still think that with the right strategy, a GWF can make the CW do some mistakes and waste the teleports.
Not to mention Tanky regen GFs. They absolutely can.
Even perma stealth TRs can...i have seen a video of Click INT rogue somewhere of him stalling and killing 3 people alone while capping their home node. But i don't know where it is now.
Lantiss' statement still holds true. You posted links to vids of a DC out healing/regen bad pvpers.
You can take any combo of good players who can burst anyone down pretty easily. That said. The TOUGHEST to burst is Sent GWF imo.
This is all a moot point because Lantiss highlighted the issue.
Unstoppable is basically and equiv of ITC. When I Unstoppable I have something over 80% DR... I also cant be stunned or CCd and I get temp HP AND it allows for a few regen ticks. It flat out allows bad players to make mistakes and it covers that.
In high lvl pvp, any 1v1 vs a GOOD Sent GWF who is BIS geared, the sent has the advantage.
Hence my suggestion still stands.
I also keep proposing changes to Tene as well, AND regen because those are stats that are causing imbalance in pvp.
It activates only after you take damage. I would say, at least 1/3 of your HP
ITC can be used even without taking damage, plus it's complemented by stealth and dodge roll immunity. GWFs have no stealth and sprint has no immunity against damage or cc.
Also: when a GWF goes unstoppable, you just have to keep the distance, since they can't attack from range. I'm not a regeneration build, yet i just do my rotation, and when they go unstoppable i disengage and circle them. They lose precious seconds trying to get me and their unstoppable goes to waste. On the other hand, a ITC rogue can still attack from range if you get away.
I wouldn't say the 2 abilities are the same, cause the 2 classes are very different.
Sure thing unstoppable can be considered OP on a sentinels with high regen build, but nerfing it again would just make any build that is not sentinel/ regen, made of paper.
I would rather nerf regeneration and put a cap at 1k hp per tick. Without regeneration increasing the damage he can take, a GWF can go unstoppable 2 times at best before getting killed. Any "normal" GWF build is far from being unkillable.
Nerf the build, not the Whole class. Play any GWF without the said sentinel/ regen setup, and i guarantee you will not think that Unstoppable is OP. The problem is, powerplayers discovered this undying build that puts together monster hp, monster regeneration and unstoppable in a deadly combo.
My personal experience: i decided on purpose to DO NOT run a sentinel/ regen tank (which can deal damage only slotting tenes, and i do not like tenebrous concept at all). I went full sentinel path but geared for damage and life steal to increase survivability. Unstoppable is my only passive defense, and i need it as hell since i have no way to avoid the Attacks coming at me, and i don't have 2k regeneration ticks when i reach 50% health. So i can tank a lot, BUT to do so i need to deal damage. And since i have slow encounter animations and only sprint to close gaps, it's something any non-tank class can counter.
Sure thing is when you have 37k hp, 2k regeneration ticks and high defense/ deflection, you do not need tactics or skills. But not all GWFs are like that.
About Roar: i still have to test it, but it bugs me that the only way to catch a CW or TR can be considered that 1 skill. Also, with a elven battle enchant slotted by the other player, i'm not sure about how effective it would be. I still think that with the right strategy, a GWF can make the CW do some mistakes and waste the teleports.
Bro, you haven ot been following this thread.
My suggestion isnt a complete nerf. its:
NERF the determination gained from taking damage, BUFF determination gained from DEALING damage. This causes non sent builds to be BUFFED in pvp.
As Sent, sure you take maybe 15% of your hp as damage before you pop it, but the Temp HP + Regen+ LS on the cookie cutter Sent BUILD your easily over 90% hp when you come back out of it...
I agree Regen needs a nerf. Possibly faster dim returns on the stat side.
ABOUT ROAR:
Its not the only way to catch them, it just helps alot. Its a very strong ability. It INTERRUPTS the person its NOT a stun so elven does nothing against it.
WHY ITS EFFECTIVE:
Because people are bad. Thats what it is... If you are holding/spamming "W" to move forward, you have to pick your finger up OFF the key and re-press it to move again. Thats why it works. People are bad and are used to holding movement keys to it SEEMS like a stun. The worse they are the longer itll stun them. The better they are, the less it will do.
You posted links to vids of a DC out healing/regen bad pvpers.
Bad players?
Funny that all your argument is based on >Bad players< while all mine are based on > Good players vs Good players< . Can't blame you, since you play in a server full of role players.
The "Bad players" you saw are his friends, guild mates, and he stalled them. And Lemonade stands is one of the best PvP guilds in dragon, so ...bad players argument isn't going to work out for you here.
GWF is the toughest to burst down, i agree. But lantiss said and i quote " there is no class at the moment that can sustain burst from 2 players at the top level, simply none." which is obviously, wrong. I have videos, i have proofs, what do you have? Oh yes, they are bad players.
If you want to back up an argument, you need to find something better than accusing players ( who are probably better than you) of being bad.
I'll just sum it up:
unstoppable should be a window of opportunity for the gwf to attack, it SHOULD NOT be a "oh i <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up, lets push this key and everything will go away".
I'm all in favor of skilled gameplay and I don't even see the problem with gwfs at top pvp level, its only the pugs that create these threads. I just think creating a more dynamic playstyle of in & out movement will bring out the good players and render the bad ones that just get carried by gear.
I'll just sum it up:
unstoppable should be a window of opportunity for the gwf to attack, it SHOULD NOT be a "oh i <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up, lets push this key and everything will go away".
I'm all in favor of skilled gameplay and I don't even see the problem with gwfs at top pvp level, its only the pugs that create these threads. I just think creating a more dynamic playstyle of in & out movement will bring out the good players and render the bad ones that just get carried by gear.
Ranked queues, queues based on your total win points.
But lantiss said and i quote " there is no class at the moment that can sustain burst from 2 players at the top level, simply none." which is obviously, wrong. I have videos, i have proofs, what do you have? Oh yes, they are bad players.
he's right and you're wrong on this one, gctrl himself will admit to you he can't tank 2 top classes from our guild, if only me and GF even touch him he goes down faster than a fly, even if he has barkshield and blocks the tenes the dmg burst is huge, we are talking about 20% bronzewood debuff with pin point feat & hv stacks + enfeeble/coi all this while you are controlled.
you didn't actually provide videos of someone solo tanking against decked out premades, but if you go watch my VODS from another thread you'll see how fast anyone melts when focus fired.
I'll just sum it up:
unstoppable should be a window of opportunity for the gwf to attack, it SHOULD NOT be a "oh i <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up, lets push this key and everything will go away".
I'm all in favor of skilled gameplay and I don't even see the problem with gwfs at top pvp level, its only the pugs that create these threads. I just think creating a more dynamic playstyle of in & out movement will bring out the good players and render the bad ones that just get carried by gear.
I'm in disagreement here. I believe that can be used either offensively or defensively. I use it as a defensive mechanism, to give my lower damage output time to catch up and my friends time to arrive. And I also use it to escape and evade.
My guild mate uses it offensively, to close with the enemy and do more damage with encounters. Also very effective.
I would settle for a discussion on aligning the more defensive stats of unstoppable with the destroyer path, giving them a better burst tank with their sacrificed overall tank, but lowering the actual attack boosts of unstoppable to mitigate their capabilities a bit.
Then, unstoppable could be aligned with the sentinel capstone to give far more damage output for a short time, but less of a defensive Damage Mitigation buff.
Then again, I'm not exactly sure changes like that are necessary, but it's a thought.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
I'll just sum it up:
unstoppable should be a window of opportunity for the gwf to attack, it SHOULD NOT be a "oh i <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up, lets push this key and everything will go away".
I'm all in favor of skilled gameplay and I don't even see the problem with gwfs at top pvp level, its only the pugs that create these threads. I just think creating a more dynamic playstyle of in & out movement will bring out the good players and render the bad ones that just get carried by gear.
Unstoppable can be used only after taking damage. Which means normal builds can use it only a couple of times in a fight, due to very simple hp limitations: there's a limit to the damage you can take. You can use potions, but still against a good player your hps will drain very fast. You usually get your first unstoppable at 60 HP (even less against a good TR), then again at 30%, then you're dead. It makes you immune to control effects and reduce damage by 30% usually (you rarely have it at full determination. It happens only when a TR really unload all his DPS on you), and makes your at-will faster. I don't know where you guys got the info that it boosts encounter damage. It does that only with destroyer purpose feat.
You can boost your unstoppable capability by regeneration or life steal, cause those stats let you recover from the damage taken, so you can take more and go unstoppable more. Life steal have an abvious limitation: you've to actually hit something to heal. And against skilled TRs or CWs it's easier said than done. 2k per tick regeneration, on the other side, is all passive and really is a bit too much to me.
Unstoppable, right now is more like "uh, my only option is to eat that ton of damage other classes throw at me. Wait, after eating it i can actually get defense boost and cc immunity for 5-8 seconds!".
Sounds OP?
A GWF can only eat damage. Sprint does not give immunity to anything like teleport or dodge roll. GWF do not block with a shield. Don't have 5k armor (usually). Can't go stealth. And must be in melee range to deal damage.
It's the easier target. Only thing a GWF have is the comeback of unstoppable after eating damage.
Playing a normal GWF build IS about in & out movement. I have to play like that or i die, plain and simple.
Only GWFs that don't need skills are the regeneration sentinels, cause all they do is tank and let regeneration and unstoppable do all the work passively. Any other build has to mix tanking with unstoppable, DPS with a bit of cc, and mobility, using sprint to circle GFs, or close the gaps with TRs/CWs/DCs, or to disengage fast and avoid damage.
I just think you guys just got used a bit too much to that sentinel with high HP/ regeneration/ tenes builds, and forgot how a real build is.
Ask to some of your GWF guildies to swap regeneration and monster HP for life steal and some damage, making them a hybrid sentinel. Send them PvP. Then tell me if they feel their Unstoppable is overpowered.
And it's not a matter of "bad PvP build". It's just that tank builds became the ONLY PvP builds in this game, and regeneration+ high HP+ unstoppable made those sentinel tank builds shine too much.
My suggestion is: put a lower diminishing return for regeneration or cap it at 1k per tick or less. Should be much lower than a campfire, even at the highest stat value and HP value. Not 2k every 3 seconds (which is, basically, 700 hp per second). Then, even unstoppable would not be much of a problem.
ofcourse because they are built that way, still you haven't answer my question, what is your GS, because the only GWF running around these days are 12-14kgs which is still holding on to a broken class. and if you are 7-9kgs trying to kill it, i will just LOL at you.
I had to laugh when you said holding on to a broken class when the irony is you are holding on to a broken game.
This game is designed to make as much money as possible on a day to day basis. It is not designed to be a great long term game.
Funny that all your argument is based on >Bad players< while all mine are based on > Good players vs Good players< . Can't blame you, since you play in a server full of role players.
The "Bad players" you saw are his friends, guild mates, and he stalled them. And Lemonade stands is one of the best PvP guilds in dragon, so ...bad players argument isn't going to work out for you here.
GWF is the toughest to burst down, i agree. But lantiss said and i quote " there is no class at the moment that can sustain burst from 2 players at the top level, simply none." which is obviously, wrong. I have videos, i have proofs, what do you have? Oh yes, they are bad players.
If you want to back up an argument, you need to find something better than accusing players ( who are probably better than you) of being bad.
Cheers. I'm done with your non-sense.
Simply, what i could derive from your post: you don't play at the top level.
I had to laugh when you said holding on to a broken class when the irony is you are holding on to a broken game.
I hate to admit it but I agree with you that this game is broken because there is so much more wrong with than a perceived imbalance in PVP. There are still too many bugs, exploits, and spammers in this game.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
he's right and you're wrong on this one, gctrl himself will admit to you he can't tank 2 top classes from our guild, if only me and GF even touch him he goes down faster than a fly, even if he has barkshield and blocks the tenes the dmg burst is huge, we are talking about 20% bronzewood debuff with pin point feat & hv stacks + enfeeble/coi all this while you are controlled.
you didn't actually provide videos of someone solo tanking against decked out premades, but if you go watch my VODS from another thread you'll see how fast anyone melts when focus fired.
As if a GWF can withstand a CW and GF controlling him either.
The GF can keep the GWF on the floor while the CW is stacking debuffs, he wont be able to use unstoppable since he needs to be on his feet to do that and the GF can keep him laying on the floor for a while till he uses unstoppable. Probably he would be able to survive with 25% HP and would run forest to get a health rune.
You need 2 people to take a GWF down, and you know that. But you don't need 2 people to stall him.
And that why i linked GCTRL videos, since with his cleric, he can stall any sentinel GWF 1 vs 1. Neither of them would die, but that would solve the issue of " Lets send 2 people on that sentinel and have a number disadvantage". So the video actually proves that a cleric can stall a GWF 1 vs 1 so you would need to send a 2nd person to kill the cleric, which is similar to what you need to do to kill a GWF. However, he can stall sent GWF and a TR. He would only die if there is too much CC.
And seriously, a GF and CW with PvP BiS can steam roll anyone in 2 vs 1 situations. Even a CW + any class can kill anyone 2 vs 1 due to the huge amount of debuffs a CW provides and the control too.
Bottom line of my posts:
You don't need to send two classes to stall a sentinel GWF, you can do it 1 vs 1. And no one, can withstand 2 geared CWs in 2 vs 1 situation. 2 CWs vs any class = that class is molten in seconds.
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faiteaccompliiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2
edited October 2013
They are not impossible to kill.....it depends though, if you have bad gear and they have superior gear it may take 2 or 3 of you badly geared players to kill one.
I rarely play domination pvp, but when I do, an unkillable GWF ruins the pvp experience.
Every class should be killable in 1vs1 fight, but some GWF's require 3 or more players, or permanent control/stun/prone/freeze to kill them.
In 1vs1 pvp fight, if you are able to greatly injure an unkillable GWF, they often will sprint away to regenerate HP or drink health potion.
Please re-balance pvp (not pve) so that every class is killable in 1vs1 fights.
If you have equivalent gear you can stomp a gwf as CW / Rogue with ease, without a hit often and im talking the top GWFs in the game because I play with them daily, you just need to adjust your tactics. I dinged 60 on my rogue and did 22k shockings on unstoppable gwfs in the first day (ignores defense so their gear means nothing vs that and I had about 8-9k gs on dinging) my cw has always had no trouble with equivalent GWF, repel = win for no damage taken (thats right ZERO you shouldnt take a hit, its called kiting, and I did that to carnage before he quit, at the time the best gwf in the game, ask people that have watched me 1 vs 1 them. GF juggles them with stuns till they die, the only time a gwf is unkillable is when its equal gwf vs gwf and the fight goes on for a long time or when a cleric thinks he can 1 vs 1. Btw a health potion gives 5k hps its near worthless now and regen is knocked off after the first hit so if you keep on them it does nothing either.
Be a rogue, enjoy how much complaining you get from gwf when you 2 hit them with a lashing / shocking combo from 30k+ to dead before they even know your there.
Its depressing to see how many useless people out there call for nerfs when they havent had proper 1 vs 1s with top end guys whilst having half decent gear themselves.
guys the only solution here is: quit pvp matches when you have unkillable gwfs. did that yesterday, too. 3-4 people of our team had a hard time to kill a solo gwf and when you have to fight him more than once during the game this becomes just a big bad joke. maybe those people that stack their broken chars with even more broken stat and ability enhancing stuff will realize that they are ruining the matches when most of the matches they play will result in waiting 10 minutes until the counter runs out.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
guys the only solution here is: quit pvp matches when you have unkillable gwfs. did that yesterday, too. 3-4 people of our team had a hard time to kill a solo gwf and when you have to fight him more than once during the game this becomes just a big bad joke. maybe those people that stack their broken chars with even more broken stat and ability enhancing stuff will realize that they are ruining the matches when most of the matches they play will result in waiting 10 minutes until the counter runs out.
Nah, they will not realize it. If people would actually realize their chars are breaking PvP, they would at least queue alone to make things more even.
But what you see instead? OP chars queue with their OP friends, and they obviously stay to the end and kill lowbies because they like it and have fun, many times even taking the effort to spawncamp the poor guys.
Interestingly enough, you only see these bitter posts from GWFs.
Because we're the only ones who seem to be seeing everything our class can't do. Everyone else wants to constantly point out what we CAN do.
For an example, when you see a GWF complain about another class, remind him of his mobility. Just speed alone is an amazing advantage, tied with a speed-CC immune sprint.
But in that same breath, when that CW complains about how hard it is to kill a GWF, they constantly regret their biggest advantage, range. Or when you mention it, they'll just try to dismiss it as nothing.
TR's do the same thing. The most powerful ability in any game is the ability to choose the engagement, followed closely by the ability to disengage. Rogues and stealth allow them to do both. But when they are complaining about their weak points, stealth is rarely brought up.
It's why having a logical discussion on class balance between class representatives is almost impossible. We talk up our downsides, which we know better than our opponents, and dismiss the power of our advantages, which our opponents know better than we do. You can't reach balance without having every factor in play.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
guys the only solution here is: quit pvp matches when you have unkillable gwfs. did that yesterday, too. 3-4 people of our team had a hard time to kill a solo gwf and when you have to fight him more than once during the game this becomes just a big bad joke. maybe those people that stack their broken chars with even more broken stat and ability enhancing stuff will realize that they are ruining the matches when most of the matches they play will result in waiting 10 minutes until the counter runs out.
Lol this is the kind of garbage player that makes leaving penalty neccessary. Absolutely unwilling to get better or learn new strategies, only solution is to leave when the going gets tough. I will remember your handle so that when servers merge I can ignore you...
Yes I realize personal attacks are not allowed, this thread has gone on way too long, its BS and it needs to be closed heh.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's why having a logical discussion on class balance between class representatives is almost impossible. We talk up our downsides, which we know better than our opponents, and dismiss the power of our advantages, which our opponents know better than we do. You can't reach balance without having every factor in play.
It's not possible because everybody wants to own the others, lol. And when their char is at the "I own" stage in development, you want it to stay there. I know this very well because even if somewhere deep in my mind I understand HV stacking is too OP, I wouldn't want it to be "fixed". I like it being OP, I worked for my HV set, leveled tailoring just to upgrade the gloves and so on, so don't touch it with nerfs.
Same is true with GWFs. Beside ayroux (who now plays a GF that's basically just as OP as the GWFs people complain about) who already managed to be hated by all other GWFs, most of the guys here play it like their class is oh so balanced in PvP and "anybody can kill it", but the reality deep in their hearts is that they know how OP they are and just like it this way. What is not to like? Smashing the skulls of poor squishies is always cool for a melee, so why not.
So surely there can't be any constructive discussion on balance when the involved parties care first for their own interests, i.e. to better kill all others...
Same is true with GWFs. Beside ayroux (who now plays a GF that's basically just as OP as the GWFs people complain about) who already managed to be hated by all other GWFs, most of the guys here play it like their class is oh so balanced in PvP and "anybody can kill it", but the reality deep in their hearts is that they know how OP they are and just like it this way. What is not to like? Smashing the skulls of poor squishies is always cool for a melee, so why not.
Exactly, GF's can get pretty much just as unstoppable 1v1 or even 2v1 with huge HP/regen stacking and tene's. Not to mention they can also use ferocious reaction and fighter's recovery for way bigger burst heals than GWF and they have double the CC and double the damage with knight's challenge.
But only GWF's are strong, lets not talk about any other class' BiS in comparison to them... That's why these threads are so stupid, when you match equally amazing geared people there is balance. Also when you match equally undergeared there is balance, so it's not a game mechanic imbalance obviously.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Comments
Good feedback and i cant agree more.
Playing mt TR - one fatal mistake against a good player and im dead.
Playing my GF - dont time rotations right, let them blink/itc/unstoppable and GG.
Playing my GWF - face tank and hit tab every few seconds. Cant be slowed/stunned/CCd and even though you DO have to be ontop of a player to use takedown, flourish follows most opponants when used right so they can get the stun, takedown if missed is a 3 sec CD. and Roar is OP as hell with tenes...
You worded it nicely, GWFs are allowed to make more mistakes which is probably why most end up not knowing how to do prper rotations... because they dont HAVE to know...
What do you think about my suggestion...
LESSEN determination gained from taking damage. Give MORE determination from DEALING damage.
This fixes the fact that Sents can unstop back to back to back and face tank everything.
Either that OR,
Put severe dim returns on the regen stat after say 750. Right now my testing its about 1200-1300 where it starts not becoming worth the tradeoff.
regen causes alot of builds to become troll builds, like Sent GWF for example. And the ever hated "perma stealth" LOL, build... Our CW sometimes runs a troll regen setup where he can tie GWFs on point as well, but its a 20-30min+ fight unless someone else comes and boring as hell....
I agree, this doesnt necessarily change the fact that unstoppable is pretty OP in pvp.
What you are saying is exactly why I slot Roar now instead of the typical setup. I could see other abilities being used such a leap or come and get it as well for anti-kiting, but roar+stunning flourish+takedown is already a pretty impressive combo.
I think even adjusting regen would change alot of the mechanics of this build and others, but it would also equally adjust everything making it harder to outlast a Sent GWF, but I think it would be a good start.
Like I said, if they nerf the Deter gained from taking damage by even 25% but if you JUST did that, NON sent builds get boned... so give them significant Deter gain for DEALING damage, this balances the builds some and even makes non-sent look a little more attractive.
I would love seeing multiple trees viable for pvp...
Is there two lantiss's or something? I just watched your steam the other day of the PvP action on PT.
Not to mention Tanky regen GFs. They absolutely can.
Even perma stealth TRs can...i have seen a video of Click INT rogue somewhere of him stalling and killing 3 people alone while capping their home node. But i don't know where it is now.
It activates only after you take damage. I would say, at least 1/3 of your HP
ITC can be used even without taking damage, plus it's complemented by stealth and dodge roll immunity. GWFs have no stealth and sprint has no immunity against damage or cc.
Also: when a GWF goes unstoppable, you just have to keep the distance, since they can't attack from range. I'm not a regeneration build, yet i just do my rotation, and when they go unstoppable i disengage and circle them. They lose precious seconds trying to get me and their unstoppable goes to waste. On the other hand, a ITC rogue can still attack from range if you get away.
I wouldn't say the 2 abilities are the same, cause the 2 classes are very different.
Sure thing unstoppable can be considered OP on a sentinels with high regen build, but nerfing it again would just make any build that is not sentinel/ regen, made of paper.
I would rather nerf regeneration and put a cap at 1k hp per tick. Without regeneration increasing the damage he can take, a GWF can go unstoppable 2 times at best before getting killed. Any "normal" GWF build is far from being unkillable.
Nerf the build, not the Whole class. Play any GWF without the said sentinel/ regen setup, and i guarantee you will not think that Unstoppable is OP. The problem is, powerplayers discovered this undying build that puts together monster hp, monster regeneration and unstoppable in a deadly combo.
My personal experience: i decided on purpose to DO NOT run a sentinel/ regen tank (which can deal damage only slotting tenes, and i do not like tenebrous concept at all). I went full sentinel path but geared for damage and life steal to increase survivability. Unstoppable is my only passive defense, and i need it as hell since i have no way to avoid the Attacks coming at me, and i don't have 2k regeneration ticks when i reach 50% health. So i can tank a lot, BUT to do so i need to deal damage. And since i have slow encounter animations and only sprint to close gaps, it's something any non-tank class can counter.
Sure thing is when you have 37k hp, 2k regeneration ticks and high defense/ deflection, you do not need tactics or skills. But not all GWFs are like that.
About Roar: i still have to test it, but it bugs me that the only way to catch a CW or TR can be considered that 1 skill. Also, with a elven battle enchant slotted by the other player, i'm not sure about how effective it would be. I still think that with the right strategy, a GWF can make the CW do some mistakes and waste the teleports.
Lantiss' statement still holds true. You posted links to vids of a DC out healing/regen bad pvpers.
You can take any combo of good players who can burst anyone down pretty easily. That said. The TOUGHEST to burst is Sent GWF imo.
This is all a moot point because Lantiss highlighted the issue.
Unstoppable is basically and equiv of ITC. When I Unstoppable I have something over 80% DR... I also cant be stunned or CCd and I get temp HP AND it allows for a few regen ticks. It flat out allows bad players to make mistakes and it covers that.
In high lvl pvp, any 1v1 vs a GOOD Sent GWF who is BIS geared, the sent has the advantage.
Hence my suggestion still stands.
I also keep proposing changes to Tene as well, AND regen because those are stats that are causing imbalance in pvp.
Bro, you haven ot been following this thread.
My suggestion isnt a complete nerf. its:
NERF the determination gained from taking damage, BUFF determination gained from DEALING damage. This causes non sent builds to be BUFFED in pvp.
As Sent, sure you take maybe 15% of your hp as damage before you pop it, but the Temp HP + Regen+ LS on the cookie cutter Sent BUILD your easily over 90% hp when you come back out of it...
I agree Regen needs a nerf. Possibly faster dim returns on the stat side.
ABOUT ROAR:
Its not the only way to catch them, it just helps alot. Its a very strong ability. It INTERRUPTS the person its NOT a stun so elven does nothing against it.
WHY ITS EFFECTIVE:
Because people are bad. Thats what it is... If you are holding/spamming "W" to move forward, you have to pick your finger up OFF the key and re-press it to move again. Thats why it works. People are bad and are used to holding movement keys to it SEEMS like a stun. The worse they are the longer itll stun them. The better they are, the less it will do.
Bad players?
Funny that all your argument is based on >Bad players< while all mine are based on > Good players vs Good players< . Can't blame you, since you play in a server full of role players.
The "Bad players" you saw are his friends, guild mates, and he stalled them. And Lemonade stands is one of the best PvP guilds in dragon, so ...bad players argument isn't going to work out for you here.
GWF is the toughest to burst down, i agree. But lantiss said and i quote " there is no class at the moment that can sustain burst from 2 players at the top level, simply none." which is obviously, wrong. I have videos, i have proofs, what do you have? Oh yes, they are bad players.
If you want to back up an argument, you need to find something better than accusing players ( who are probably better than you) of being bad.
Cheers. I'm done with your non-sense.
tl;dr
I'll just sum it up:
unstoppable should be a window of opportunity for the gwf to attack, it SHOULD NOT be a "oh i <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up, lets push this key and everything will go away".
I'm all in favor of skilled gameplay and I don't even see the problem with gwfs at top pvp level, its only the pugs that create these threads. I just think creating a more dynamic playstyle of in & out movement will bring out the good players and render the bad ones that just get carried by gear.
Ranked queues, queues based on your total win points.
Queues only for BiS PvP players. Problem solved.
he's right and you're wrong on this one, gctrl himself will admit to you he can't tank 2 top classes from our guild, if only me and GF even touch him he goes down faster than a fly, even if he has barkshield and blocks the tenes the dmg burst is huge, we are talking about 20% bronzewood debuff with pin point feat & hv stacks + enfeeble/coi all this while you are controlled.
you didn't actually provide videos of someone solo tanking against decked out premades, but if you go watch my VODS from another thread you'll see how fast anyone melts when focus fired.
I'm in disagreement here. I believe that can be used either offensively or defensively. I use it as a defensive mechanism, to give my lower damage output time to catch up and my friends time to arrive. And I also use it to escape and evade.
My guild mate uses it offensively, to close with the enemy and do more damage with encounters. Also very effective.
I would settle for a discussion on aligning the more defensive stats of unstoppable with the destroyer path, giving them a better burst tank with their sacrificed overall tank, but lowering the actual attack boosts of unstoppable to mitigate their capabilities a bit.
Then, unstoppable could be aligned with the sentinel capstone to give far more damage output for a short time, but less of a defensive Damage Mitigation buff.
Then again, I'm not exactly sure changes like that are necessary, but it's a thought.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Unstoppable can be used only after taking damage. Which means normal builds can use it only a couple of times in a fight, due to very simple hp limitations: there's a limit to the damage you can take. You can use potions, but still against a good player your hps will drain very fast. You usually get your first unstoppable at 60 HP (even less against a good TR), then again at 30%, then you're dead. It makes you immune to control effects and reduce damage by 30% usually (you rarely have it at full determination. It happens only when a TR really unload all his DPS on you), and makes your at-will faster. I don't know where you guys got the info that it boosts encounter damage. It does that only with destroyer purpose feat.
You can boost your unstoppable capability by regeneration or life steal, cause those stats let you recover from the damage taken, so you can take more and go unstoppable more. Life steal have an abvious limitation: you've to actually hit something to heal. And against skilled TRs or CWs it's easier said than done. 2k per tick regeneration, on the other side, is all passive and really is a bit too much to me.
Unstoppable, right now is more like "uh, my only option is to eat that ton of damage other classes throw at me. Wait, after eating it i can actually get defense boost and cc immunity for 5-8 seconds!".
Sounds OP?
A GWF can only eat damage. Sprint does not give immunity to anything like teleport or dodge roll. GWF do not block with a shield. Don't have 5k armor (usually). Can't go stealth. And must be in melee range to deal damage.
It's the easier target. Only thing a GWF have is the comeback of unstoppable after eating damage.
Playing a normal GWF build IS about in & out movement. I have to play like that or i die, plain and simple.
Only GWFs that don't need skills are the regeneration sentinels, cause all they do is tank and let regeneration and unstoppable do all the work passively. Any other build has to mix tanking with unstoppable, DPS with a bit of cc, and mobility, using sprint to circle GFs, or close the gaps with TRs/CWs/DCs, or to disengage fast and avoid damage.
I just think you guys just got used a bit too much to that sentinel with high HP/ regeneration/ tenes builds, and forgot how a real build is.
Ask to some of your GWF guildies to swap regeneration and monster HP for life steal and some damage, making them a hybrid sentinel. Send them PvP. Then tell me if they feel their Unstoppable is overpowered.
And it's not a matter of "bad PvP build". It's just that tank builds became the ONLY PvP builds in this game, and regeneration+ high HP+ unstoppable made those sentinel tank builds shine too much.
My suggestion is: put a lower diminishing return for regeneration or cap it at 1k per tick or less. Should be much lower than a campfire, even at the highest stat value and HP value. Not 2k every 3 seconds (which is, basically, 700 hp per second). Then, even unstoppable would not be much of a problem.
I had to laugh when you said holding on to a broken class when the irony is you are holding on to a broken game.
Simply, what i could derive from your post: you don't play at the top level.
I hate to admit it but I agree with you that this game is broken because there is so much more wrong with than a perceived imbalance in PVP. There are still too many bugs, exploits, and spammers in this game.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
As if a GWF can withstand a CW and GF controlling him either.
The GF can keep the GWF on the floor while the CW is stacking debuffs, he wont be able to use unstoppable since he needs to be on his feet to do that and the GF can keep him laying on the floor for a while till he uses unstoppable. Probably he would be able to survive with 25% HP and would run forest to get a health rune.
You need 2 people to take a GWF down, and you know that. But you don't need 2 people to stall him.
And that why i linked GCTRL videos, since with his cleric, he can stall any sentinel GWF 1 vs 1. Neither of them would die, but that would solve the issue of " Lets send 2 people on that sentinel and have a number disadvantage". So the video actually proves that a cleric can stall a GWF 1 vs 1 so you would need to send a 2nd person to kill the cleric, which is similar to what you need to do to kill a GWF. However, he can stall sent GWF and a TR. He would only die if there is too much CC.
And seriously, a GF and CW with PvP BiS can steam roll anyone in 2 vs 1 situations. Even a CW + any class can kill anyone 2 vs 1 due to the huge amount of debuffs a CW provides and the control too.
Bottom line of my posts:
You don't need to send two classes to stall a sentinel GWF, you can do it 1 vs 1. And no one, can withstand 2 geared CWs in 2 vs 1 situation. 2 CWs vs any class = that class is molten in seconds.
GWF's have no Burst, therefore their Tanky. give and take. go cry about Lashing Blades somewhere else, that might work
There is no Inbalance in PVP, PVP is perfect the way it is.
If you have equivalent gear you can stomp a gwf as CW / Rogue with ease, without a hit often and im talking the top GWFs in the game because I play with them daily, you just need to adjust your tactics. I dinged 60 on my rogue and did 22k shockings on unstoppable gwfs in the first day (ignores defense so their gear means nothing vs that and I had about 8-9k gs on dinging) my cw has always had no trouble with equivalent GWF, repel = win for no damage taken (thats right ZERO you shouldnt take a hit, its called kiting, and I did that to carnage before he quit, at the time the best gwf in the game, ask people that have watched me 1 vs 1 them. GF juggles them with stuns till they die, the only time a gwf is unkillable is when its equal gwf vs gwf and the fight goes on for a long time or when a cleric thinks he can 1 vs 1. Btw a health potion gives 5k hps its near worthless now and regen is knocked off after the first hit so if you keep on them it does nothing either.
Be a rogue, enjoy how much complaining you get from gwf when you 2 hit them with a lashing / shocking combo from 30k+ to dead before they even know your there.
Its depressing to see how many useless people out there call for nerfs when they havent had proper 1 vs 1s with top end guys whilst having half decent gear themselves.
Interestingly enough, you only see these bitter posts from GWFs.
Nah, they will not realize it. If people would actually realize their chars are breaking PvP, they would at least queue alone to make things more even.
But what you see instead? OP chars queue with their OP friends, and they obviously stay to the end and kill lowbies because they like it and have fun, many times even taking the effort to spawncamp the poor guys.
Because we're the only ones who seem to be seeing everything our class can't do. Everyone else wants to constantly point out what we CAN do.
For an example, when you see a GWF complain about another class, remind him of his mobility. Just speed alone is an amazing advantage, tied with a speed-CC immune sprint.
But in that same breath, when that CW complains about how hard it is to kill a GWF, they constantly regret their biggest advantage, range. Or when you mention it, they'll just try to dismiss it as nothing.
TR's do the same thing. The most powerful ability in any game is the ability to choose the engagement, followed closely by the ability to disengage. Rogues and stealth allow them to do both. But when they are complaining about their weak points, stealth is rarely brought up.
It's why having a logical discussion on class balance between class representatives is almost impossible. We talk up our downsides, which we know better than our opponents, and dismiss the power of our advantages, which our opponents know better than we do. You can't reach balance without having every factor in play.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Lol this is the kind of garbage player that makes leaving penalty neccessary. Absolutely unwilling to get better or learn new strategies, only solution is to leave when the going gets tough. I will remember your handle so that when servers merge I can ignore you...
Yes I realize personal attacks are not allowed, this thread has gone on way too long, its BS and it needs to be closed heh.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
It's not possible because everybody wants to own the others, lol. And when their char is at the "I own" stage in development, you want it to stay there. I know this very well because even if somewhere deep in my mind I understand HV stacking is too OP, I wouldn't want it to be "fixed". I like it being OP, I worked for my HV set, leveled tailoring just to upgrade the gloves and so on, so don't touch it with nerfs.
Same is true with GWFs. Beside ayroux (who now plays a GF that's basically just as OP as the GWFs people complain about) who already managed to be hated by all other GWFs, most of the guys here play it like their class is oh so balanced in PvP and "anybody can kill it", but the reality deep in their hearts is that they know how OP they are and just like it this way. What is not to like? Smashing the skulls of poor squishies is always cool for a melee, so why not.
So surely there can't be any constructive discussion on balance when the involved parties care first for their own interests, i.e. to better kill all others...
Exactly, GF's can get pretty much just as unstoppable 1v1 or even 2v1 with huge HP/regen stacking and tene's. Not to mention they can also use ferocious reaction and fighter's recovery for way bigger burst heals than GWF and they have double the CC and double the damage with knight's challenge.
But only GWF's are strong, lets not talk about any other class' BiS in comparison to them... That's why these threads are so stupid, when you match equally amazing geared people there is balance. Also when you match equally undergeared there is balance, so it's not a game mechanic imbalance obviously.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.