Then again. You aren't a CW who's forced to play against two stealth TR 80% of the time. Where in some cases they both are chaining Impact shots from stealth against you? Yes? No? Maybe?
I tried to L2P in game but I didn't see them TR so now I'm playing the forum too where they are visible.
Unlike Cryptic who is perma stealthed here on the forum! Well, not when it comes to charging overprices to beta test their game.
You're complaining that you can't win a 2v1? Maybe CWs should be nerfed. Best I can do 2v1 is MAYBE kill 1 with all encounters and a daily, and then have to run away.
You're complaining that you can't win a 2v1? Maybe CWs should be nerfed. Best I can do 2v1 is MAYBE kill 1 with all encounters and a daily, and then have to run away.
PvP is a team sport.
Did you want to misunderstand me or was it unintentional?
2 TR means twice the risk to get attacked from stealth, but maybe not at the same time. If I see them I can avoid them more easy.
Did you want to misunderstand me or was it unintentional?
2 TR means twice the risk to get attacked from stealth, but maybe not at the same time. If I see them I can avoid them more easy.
In WoW Rogues could truly "perma stealth"... In this game it lasts what 8 seconds? And most TRs dont even know how to play properly but then again... most CWs dont either...
If your having TR issues, maybe re-evaluate the way you are playing... Ill even offer this, record a few matches of you playing and post them here and ill review them and tell you what to change :P
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borgued3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 150Bounty Hunter
Ahh, learn to play!!! I haven’t heard that one before!
I’ve won a few competitions at shopping malls and game fairs and gotten among other things a Nintendo.
I played in the number one Quake CTF team in Sweden in the 90ths, Cute, and we remained unbeaten until we started playing EQ. We also won against the number one team in Holland and England.
In EQ I won the Bard Best of the Best on Veeshan – mostly against Fires of Heaven bards.
Then we had a kid so only some months of EQ 2 and then a few months of WoW.
Before this game I came from Rift where I played a mage in Parabellum, the number one guild in the world when I played (world first Maelforge and done with ID). Most likely I was one of the top 3 mages in PVP EU.
Bragging? Maybe a little, but just to make my point about how stupid PVP in this game is.
I would like to ask you if you can teach me to play but you can’t since TR is way over the top and you probably aren’t as skilled as you think. Give me a TR and I’ll solo a GF no problem.
The nature of this game is broken. The sooner you understand the better.
Sorry man, but your logic is flawed.
Saying L2P for this game does not apply to you because you played very well RIFT, WoW, EQ, etc.... is the same same as me saying that because i am a very good programmer that i should not learn how to develop a network before getting hired for that specific job.
The experience you have on those games, even though counts a lot for your gamer background means the same as 0 when evaluating your performance on this game, because NWNO is different in too many aspects from those games.
When we, rogues, come to the forum and drop the classic L2P bomb, even though it may be offensive for someone as seasoned as you in games, has the purpose of pointing one of the following ideas:
1- Level a rogue, play with it, see it's flaws, and then come here to post.
2- Learn how to counter the class (which is easier if you accomplish number 1)
I used to think for example that permastealth build would be the most OP thing EVER, untill i tried mine. When i played the class with that build, i could see more clearly the flaws of rogues, how they actually work, how hard they are punished by a mistep, and SPECIALLY, how to counter them, but i had to play the class to be sure.
Thats the reason why i am not gonna create 50 threads saying GF is op, or GWF, or CW, because i never played those in dept on pvp matches, so if they have weaknesses, i am not fully aware of them, and i want to play the classes before making judgment of it, and thats pretty much what many of the complainers should do before trying to shove nerfs up our butts and saying we can still take more.
so botton line, if you are getting punished hard by rogues, it has to be one of the following:
1- you do not know how to counter them
2- you are unlucky and keep bashing into the few elite with multiple gtenes, pvorpal and rank 8+ enchants on their gear, and those guys are heavy spenders on the game for the sole purpose of having a OP build, and that can apply to any class, not just rogues.
If any CW here feels he can 1v1 a rogue I invite him to PTR to prove it.
There is no denying that equally skilled rogue can kill a cw, the problem occurs when there is more than 1 on the team.
Look at all current threads, it's never a class complaining about 2 or 3 other classes, its always a single class complaining about another single class, sure rogue is being mentioned more than other classes but that's just because the rogues can always get a kill on certain class, whereas a class like CW will have more even odds against other classes.
That's a trade off most rogues can take "I can't kill gwf/gf fast enough, but I can always 1shot cw/dc". it's not about l2p at all. that's why you don't see many QQ threads from rogues, because even after nerfs they can still get their satisfaction of easy kills.
In WoW Rogues could truly "perma stealth"... In this game it lasts what 8 seconds? And most TRs dont even know how to play properly but then again... most CWs dont either...
If your having TR issues, maybe re-evaluate the way you are playing... Ill even offer this, record a few matches of you playing and post them here and ill review them and tell you what to change :P
I'll try to make a video but I only have 1mbit upload so it will take time.
Not really sure if the video will say anything else then what I've been saying. It's not like I'm losing against the average rogue. The problem I have is that stealth is unfair in PVP... even if I may or may not kill them more than they kill me.
If any CW here feels he can 1v1 a rogue I invite him to PTR to prove it.
There is no denying that equally skilled rogue can kill a cw, the problem occurs when there is more than 1 on the team.
Look at all current threads, it's never a class complaining about 2 or 3 other classes, its always a single class complaining about another single class, sure rogue is being mentioned more than other classes but that's just because the rogues can always get a kill on certain class, whereas a class like CW will have more even odds against other classes.
That's a trade off most rogues can take "I can't kill gwf/gf fast enough, but I can always 1shot cw/dc". it's not about l2p at all. that's why you don't see many QQ threads from rogues, because even after nerfs they can still get their satisfaction of easy kills.
true to some extent, but gwfs, gfs and even cws can get easy kills on rogues, cw will just have a harder time than the others but every rogue that gets out of stealth too soon near a CW is as good as dead (the same way that a CW that mess up and get hit by lashing is on a pretty tight spot too, so its a matter of who will perform better with his class), but we dont spam the forums complaining on every class that kills us because when we get killed is because the enemy knew how to counter us, or because we messed up, but thats L2P in a nutshell.
there is no such thing as a class standing on top of all others at the moment, every class has its strong points and its weak points, rogues for example are squashed like bugs the moment stealth ends as long as the people targetting it arent completelly braindead.
I saw many threads with people qqing that CoS was OP...well, sure it was, when you are a wooden board uncapable of dodging/blocking/running away from it.
Then threads on stealth, which can be depleted by damaging the rogue with AoEs.
Then i saw threads saying Impacts were OP...well, they are pretty slow to shoot, have minimal range, 3 charges on a far longer CD than CoS, and it can be dodged/blocked/avoided by running away from its reach, the plus side is that each impact does a good damage.
Then they say Lashing is OP, and i reply with the same: Its dodgable, its blockable, and will hardly put down a class that doesnt have either of the previous ones in 1 shot (yes i mean GWF)
resuming the list, EVERY one of rogue's skills are counterable and most of the strongest are counterable with so much brainwork as pressind a/w/s/d twice. Am i saying that all classes will roll over rogues with ease? No some will have more trouble or will face more danger due to low HP and defense, such as CWs, but player a player with good skills on his class can bring victory against anything.
May be hard to hear that again but most of the crying on forum is nothing but a L2P issue, and given that posts teaching people how to beat TRs are all over the QQ threads, the issue is quickly going from L2P to L2Read, but as was mentioned more than once, crying is easier than learning.
Saying L2P for this game does not apply to you because you played very well RIFT, WoW, EQ, etc.... is the same same as me saying that because i am a very good programmer that i should not learn how to develop a network before getting hired for that specific job.
Actually, if you are skilled at something you are more often skilled at other things. There is one book named Good to Great where the author did a massive research. One of his conclusions was that it’s better to relocate skilled workers even if they didn’t have that specific competence, than to take less skilled worker with the sought competence. Skilled workers learned fast and outperformed others with longer experience faster than expected.
Everyone needs to learn how to play and it absolutely applies for me too. I have played this game since May. Maybe average 5+ hours per day mostly PVP. I think I should have passed that threshold by now?
May be hard to hear that again but most of the crying on forum is nothing but a L2P issue, and given that posts teaching people how to beat TRs are all over the QQ threads, the issue is quickly going from L2P to L2Read, but as was mentioned more than once, crying is easier than learning.
I try to avoid L2P because there will ALWAYS be someone better than you at any game, and throwing the phrase out there randomly is bound to hit someone that knows something you might not.
How about I put this chain combo for you, let us see how you counter it as a CW:
1. CW is capping a point (fully decked, full tenes, perfect everything)
2. TR comes to the same point using skills: PoB, Impact, ITC (fully decked, full tenes, perfect everything)
Now your turn. Tell me what skills would you use and how would you counter or escape.
I try to avoid L2P because there will ALWAYS be someone better than you at any game, and throwing the phrase out there randomly is bound to hit someone that knows something you might not.
How about I put this chain combo for you, let us see how you counter it as a CW:
1. CW is capping a point (fully decked, full tenes, perfect everything)
2. TR comes to the same point using skills: PoB, Impact, ITC (fully decked, full tenes, perfect everything)
Now your turn. Tell me what skills would you use and how would you counter or escape.
I'll try to make a video but I only have 1mbit upload so it will take time.
Not really sure if the video will say anything else then what I've been saying. It's not like I'm losing against the average rogue. The problem I have is that stealth is unfair in PVP... even if I may or may not kill them more than they kill me.
Haha, I went to my computer to make a recording but my eyes got like flashes infront of them, which happens like once every year. Couldn't really see the whole screen but I tried to do the video anyway. I faced as usual two rogues who also happened to be skilled. Well, the whole team was skilled.
Didn't turn out so well for my team and after a while someone said: -Abac and the other CWs name, you suck and should stop playing this game.
That one is on me. Tomorrow maybe my eyes will work.
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yes, this is another thread about PVP and rogues. Why? Because I’ve had it!
I’m kindly asking you, Cryptic, to spread your ideas about PVP in NW here on the forum. What are your thoughts? Is it too much to ask to tell us about the game we’ve paid in and are playing. Are there any plans on fixing rogues in PVP or not?
In my guild only rogues play PVP now. I sometimes play PVP as a CW but when a skilled rogue enters I’m screwed if the rogue focuses me - which they tend to do since I'm a CW. Stealth + Impact shot x 4 + immune (some rogues are skilled at timing Lashing at max range too). It is 99 % safe risk vs reward. The very definition of full <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>!
In other words, there is no use in playing PVP against a skilled end game rogue no matter what gear or skill you have as a CW.
Unless it’s a sadistic pleasure where you in some weird way think it’s is fun/good/ok to kill from stealth and immune. Let me tell you, nobody else who plays a CW a lot in PVP thinks it’s fun. Trust me!
It is not about skill. It is very little about gear. It’s about utterly broken abilities usable in PVP.
What is the problem? Fix it! Seriously!
Will it take another 2 months when the next “balancing” patch comes? If you want PVP to survive you will have to do better than this. The honeymoon is over.
PS. If you haven’t met a rogue with Impact shots for 13+ k each post patch, please be silent and continue to play your PVE.
Another unskilled player calling for nerfs. What the latest round of nerfs was not enough for you? Learn to play instead of trying to ruin the game for everyone else. Keep in mind your class might just be nerfed along with the class you want nerfed. Every class has its advantages and disadvantages. Learn to overcome the disadvantages in your class and use the ones in the class you are fighting. Lets see what core abilities can be taken away from CWs if the devs nerf stealth. hmm. Peace Out!
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I played with you multiple times abac, you're a good CW but I'm afraid you give pub gameplay too much attention when thinking about balance, ever since the patch came out CW is the top dog now EXCEPT if they stupidly rush INTO a rogue trap.
It came to a point of a new meta game that a CW can hold a point against anyone and demolish them, he can run away more safely from a rogue (they lost their momentum with daggers) or bait rogues to come out of stealth because they have to choose either cap the point or commit to chasing you to middle of the map.
(and before you say permastealth, that spec maybe still possible to do but it does no dmg with 8 daggers and it dies to pretty much any other decently played class).
The problem lies with cryptic's matching system, it queues you against 2-3 of the same class even if it's not a premade, that's when the complaining begins and I think most threads are a result of some player being matched against a ridiculous composition.
Thank you for verifying my opinion that abacuser is a stupid player. Fighting more than one rogue, falling for obvious traps, losing, and coming to the forums to cry over it is simply pathetic. I wonder if abacuser ever heard of the tenerbrous enchantments. Any class player can stack them to kill anyone in pvp.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Ahh, learn to play!!! I haven’t heard that one before!
I’ve won a few competitions at shopping malls and game fairs and gotten among other things a Nintendo.
I played in the number one Quake CTF team in Sweden in the 90ths, Cute, and we remained unbeaten until we started playing EQ. We also won against the number one team in Holland and England.
In EQ I won the Bard Best of the Best on Veeshan – mostly against Fires of Heaven bards.
Then we had a kid so only some months of EQ 2 and then a few months of WoW.
Before this game I came from Rift where I played a mage in Parabellum, the number one guild in the world when I played (world first Maelforge and done with ID). Most likely I was one of the top 3 mages in PVP EU.
Bragging? Maybe a little, but just to make my point about how stupid PVP in this game is.
I would like to ask you if you can teach me to play but you can’t since TR is way over the top and you probably aren’t as skilled as you think. Give me a TR and I’ll solo a GF no problem.
The nature of this game is broken. The sooner you understand the better.
LOL... this guy.
OK, so what have we established here:
- you were better than the local mall or game fair population at Nintendo games;
- you were in a good Quake team;
- you were a good bard in EQ1;
- you were in a good Rift guild;
- it's likely (your words) that you were good at PvP in Rift.
- you aren't very good at fighting Rogues in Neverwinter
Of all of these things, which is the most relevant in establishing your credentials for being an authority on the development and balance of Neverwinter? Hmm...
Also regarding the GF vs Rogue thing. Prove it. Roll one, record it and link it. Until then, get over yourself and try to offer something a little more substantive than "I think I'm awesome and this game sucks".
Another unskilled player calling for nerfs. What the latest round of nerfs was not enough for you? Learn to play instead of trying to ruin the game for everyone else. Keep in mind your class might just be nerfed along with the class you want nerfed. Every class has its advantages and disadvantages. Learn to overcome the disadvantages in your class and use the ones in the class you are fighting. Lets see what core abilities can be taken away from CWs if the devs nerf stealth. hmm. Peace Out!
Well, well. We have ourselves a King!
Learn to play again? Not so kingly. Only dead fish follow the stream... but a king should make his own ways, wouldn't you say? Not just say what about 50 % of this forum already said. Actually, there is a saying. If you point one finger at someone else you point 3 fingers at yourself at the same time.
Anyway to the fun stuff, my first video (my eyes are pretty OK after resting in bed). The file became huge so I had to cut and compress it to be able to upload it today since its 1 am here. First minute I was recording at 30 FPS but it was unplayable since it altered my in-game FPS too so I changed it to 60 FPS. That is why the video doesn't start when the match starts.
Nothing out of the ordinary. 4 TR, as usual. There are ofc some Impact shots from stealth.
I don't really have a problem with rogues except when they can lash/impact you from 20 feet away even when you on a mount and when you entangle they only choke for 0.00001 secs. If rogues didn't have 100 stuns they would be as useless as a dc in pvp. That's why I deleted my rogue, it doesn't take ANY skill at all to spam daze or smoke bomb then 1 or 2 hit somebody that can't move or defend themselves.;)
Queen of Dragon Server
Goddess Uniique, lvl 60 DC.
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
I'm a cw, I play against top rogues daily (In lemonade stand, we do premades vs each other and there are no weak players and try playing with someone like foosoo targetting you repeatedly) superstealth rogues are my kryptonite however I will beat them since the last patch at about 3/5 (they win 5 to my 3 in a 1 vs 1 at around same gear) now given that I beat any other class handily in a 1 vs 1 I cant complain too much about control wizards, rogues are not overpowered though they do have incredibly annoying abilities.
Abac I've played you many times you have a bad tendency to sit on your at wills and not move, to beat rogues you have to play paranoid, constant movement, time dodges to match them entering stealth etc. If rogues are a problem for you spec better in feats; pure damage is great but isn't the way to win 1 vs 1s. Repel is an underrated ability but devastating in 1 vs 1 especially for beating rogues and keeping distance, its also instant cast meaning you find the rogue in stealth you can hit it and immediately jump them out ready for your choke. If your into defending the point it also means your team scoring everytime you get them off the point.
Bottom line is adjust how your playing and you'll see rogues aren't as bad as they were prepatch they are now very beatable for a good cw.
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Learn to play again? Not so kingly. Only dead fish follow the stream... but a king should make his own ways, wouldn't you say? Not just say what about 50 % of this forum already said. Actually, there is a saying. If you point one finger at someone else you point 3 fingers at yourself at the same time.
Anyway to the fun stuff, my first video (my eyes are pretty OK after resting in bed). The file became huge so I had to cut and compress it to be able to upload it today since its 1 am here. First minute I was recording at 30 FPS but it was unplayable since it altered my in-game FPS too so I changed it to 60 FPS. That is why the video doesn't start when the match starts.
Nothing out of the ordinary. 4 TR, as usual. There are ofc some Impact shots from stealth.
And before you complain, this is my first video ever and I can upload as many as you want. I just wanted to upload one today before bedtime.
50% of the forum agrees you should learn to play? hmmmm. Guess it is good advice and you are too full of yourself to take it. You do not even know the attacks the tr was using against you. The TR was using cloud of steel to first injure you, then shadow strike to stay stealthed, impact shot once or twice, and finished you off with cloud of steel. Oh yeah, the tr used bait and switch to stay stealthed as well. You did decently for CW in the video and yet you come here to whine like a little baby. Seriously this game would be tons better if it did not have cry babies like you in it ruining the game for everyone else. It seems you are in the category of crying because you feel like it and not the learn to play category. Whiners like you are even lower than people who need to learn to play. Let people point fingers at me because it seems 50% or more of the people on the forums agree. The nerfs already were enough and there is no need for more. Yet cry babies still cry and whine even when they do not have a reason to cry.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm a cw, I play against top rogues daily (In lemonade stand, we do premades vs each other and there are no weak players and try playing with someone like foosoo targetting you repeatedly) superstealth rogues are my kryptonite however I will beat them since the last patch at about 3/5 (they win 5 to my 3 in a 1 vs 1 at around same gear) now given that I beat any other class handily in a 1 vs 1 I cant complain too much about control wizards, rogues are not overpowered though they do have incredibly annoying abilities.
Abac I've played you many times you have a bad tendency to sit on your at wills and not move, to beat rogues you have to play paranoid, constant movement, time dodges to match them entering stealth etc. If rogues are a problem for you spec better in feats; pure damage is great but isn't the way to win 1 vs 1s. Repel is an underrated ability but devastating in 1 vs 1 especially for beating rogues and keeping distance, its also instant cast meaning you find the rogue in stealth you can hit it and immediately jump them out ready for your choke. If your into defending the point it also means your team scoring everytime you get them off the point.
Bottom line is adjust how your playing and you'll see rogues aren't as bad as they were prepatch they are now very beatable for a good cw.
Ah so it is a learn to play issue and not crying because abac feels like it. Guess the rest of the forums are right.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
But as you can see above this post I've posted my first video. Where I also die from stealth Impact shot.
I don't have to. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. You claim Rogues are broken. I do not. Believe it or not, I have no problem with further class balancing provided it is justified through proper testing and analysis of the issue. I take issue with your posts because you offer no justification or evidence supporting your assertions. If you give me a good reason to nerf Rogues I might even back you.
If you want people to take you seriously stop asking your peers to just "trust you" or believe your tales of woe. You have no recognized expert authority on game balance. Your opinion carries as much weight as mine or anyone else in this thread. Just saying so isn't good enough.
What I suggest you do is:
1) Go back over the posts that say you are doing something wrong and offer advice on how to improve.
2) Try the advice.
3) Form some proper arguments as to why the Rogue should be nerfed.
4) Offer evidence supporting your arguments.
Raging or whining on these forums doesn't get you what you want. It just makes you look stupid and erodes any legitimate point you might have.
I'm a cw, I play against top rogues daily (In lemonade stand, we do premades vs each other and there are no weak players and try playing with someone like foosoo targetting you repeatedly) superstealth rogues are my kryptonite however I will beat them since the last patch at about 3/5 (they win 5 to my 3 in a 1 vs 1 at around same gear) now given that I beat any other class handily in a 1 vs 1 I cant complain too much about control wizards, rogues are not overpowered though they do have incredibly annoying abilities.
Abac I've played you many times you have a bad tendency to sit on your at wills and not move, to beat rogues you have to play paranoid, constant movement, time dodges to match them entering stealth etc. If rogues are a problem for you spec better in feats; pure damage is great but isn't the way to win 1 vs 1s. Repel is an underrated ability but devastating in 1 vs 1 especially for beating rogues and keeping distance, its also instant cast meaning you find the rogue in stealth you can hit it and immediately jump them out ready for your choke. If your into defending the point it also means your team scoring everytime you get them off the point.
Bottom line is adjust how your playing and you'll see rogues aren't as bad as they were prepatch they are now very beatable for a good cw.
Ilyuma right? (sorry if not lol), you're missing the point, you compare our premades (where btw we never send CW against a TR.....EVER, unless he's fighting some other rogue and you just go to help him) to pugs where you are queued against more than 1 rogue, uneven geared players etc'.
Is what its all about, I need to change what im doing for perma stealth TR's, I need to adjust for fighers, I need to adjust for groups heavy on different classes. Took me a while to figure out how to take on fighters without getting perma stun prone all the time, I made the adjustments and now I have a good fight with them typically.
Most people seem to think the ONE way they have learned to play is THE ONLY way and the BEST way for ALL situations.
I try to avoid L2P because there will ALWAYS be someone better than you at any game, and throwing the phrase out there randomly is bound to hit someone that knows something you might not.
How about I put this chain combo for you, let us see how you counter it as a CW:
1. CW is capping a point (fully decked, full tenes, perfect everything)
2. TR comes to the same point using skills: PoB, Impact, ITC (fully decked, full tenes, perfect everything)
Now your turn. Tell me what skills would you use and how would you counter or escape.
Is it PoB into Stealth, Impact Shot (breaks stealth) then ItC or is it PoB from Stealth, ItC into Impact? Does the CW see the Rogue coming? I can't imagine that being too effective as the PoB tells you where the Rogue is while in stealth. Wouldn't that be easy to kite with momentum changes? That said, if the CW gets caught in the PoB it's going to hurt with the Tene procs and the Rogue will be able to move the CW off the objective if the CW wants to live.
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borgued3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 150Bounty Hunter
I try to avoid L2P because there will ALWAYS be someone better than you at any game, and throwing the phrase out there randomly is bound to hit someone that knows something you might not.
How about I put this chain combo for you, let us see how you counter it as a CW:
1. CW is capping a point (fully decked, full tenes, perfect everything)
2. TR comes to the same point using skills: PoB, Impact, ITC (fully decked, full tenes, perfect everything)
Now your turn. Tell me what skills would you use and how would you counter or escape.
well, my knowledge on CW is flawed, but here is my guess for a fighting option:
1- PoB isnt damaging enough so it would prolly just mitigate my shield
2- rogue will likelly be on stealth before tossing the first impact so i will be stunned, ok, so 2 hits are likelly to hit, but after the first toss, to avoid being CCed he would pop ItC, which would give me more than enough time to recover and start teleports to avoid the remaining 3 (i would watch his animation, if he makes a full baseball throwing motion i know impact is coming, so teleport and wait for the next)
3- ItC only lasts 5 secs, and if he attempts many impacts he will be standing still for that time, so no need to waste teleports to get away from him, i just need to teleport when impacts are coming and as soon as his ItC is over i start a force choke, followed by some magic missiles or ray of frost to keep him stuck, follow up with the skill that stun players, forgot the name but its right next to conduit of ice.
4- renew my shield to soak incoming damage and keep the stunlock combo
5- when he gets to 40% less hp, ice knife
its worth to mention also that impact will give you a slight push distancing you form rogue and the skill has quite a small range when compared to CoS, so teleport once will remove you from his reach if its on the opposing direction from the rogue, you however still have reach to stun him and begin your permaCC rotation.
but again, i am not a pro at cw or anything, its just a rough sketch of what to do, when i level mine some more and get the grip of how the skills work i can come up with better rotations.
for scape its even easier, just stun then teleport away. He just burned his stealth on first impact shot and it wont be renewed so soon, so he wont have sneak attack mobility activated, 3 teleports on the opposing direction and you are safe, but try to go as close as possible to your teammates and fight as a group if you are not confident you can take him 1 on 1.
Also, worth to mention that as a CW soloing a rogue on a point cap, its worth to take your distance, even if it means leaving the capping area, first take control over the fight, then you worry about the point.
The TR was using cloud of steel to first injure you, then shadow strike to stay stealthed, impact shot once or twice, and finished you off with cloud of steel. Oh yeah, the tr used bait and switch to stay stealthed as well. You did decently for CW in the video.
Close but a couple of other things happened as well:
- he was at approximately 65% health when the first CoS daggers hit
- he actually dodged the Shadow Strike so he didn't get dazed
- as he summoned his bowling ball the Rogue pops lurkers (you can hear it as the ball lands) and the Rogue briefly appears in front of him so this was taken post patch (mistake by the rogue)
- first impact is dodged, second lands and doesn't break stealth coz of lurkers but lurkers expires shortly after hence bait and switch
- couple more CoS and finish with third Impact.
So the rogue was forced to pretty well blow everything to kill a half-dead CW. On the other hand the GFs take him apart a few times from full health (only one death though) and it's the Rogue that needs the nerf... Now I really don't understand where apac is coming from. Had that last Impact Shot not landed, the Rogue would have had to disengage. He was one dodge away from getting away or turning the tables on the Rogue (and apac dodged well).
I don't understand how that engagement could be considered horribly imbalanced.
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Close but a couple of other things happened as well:
- he was at approximately 65% health when the first CoS daggers hit
- he actually dodged the Shadow Strike so he didn't get dazed
- as he summoned his bowling ball the Rogue pops lurkers (you can hear it as the ball lands) and the Rogue briefly appears in front of him so this was taken post patch (mistake by the rogue)
- first impact lands and doesn't break stealth coz of lurkers but lurkers expires shortly after hence bait and switch
- couple more CoS and finish with second Impact.
So the rogue was forced to pretty well blow everything to kill a half-dead CW. On the other hand the GFs take him apart a few times from full health and it's the Rogue that needs the nerf... Now I really don't understand where apac is coming from.
Thanks for correcting me and giving me an idea. Lurker's Assault is why the rogue did not break stealth with impact shot. I missed the sound of LA. I agree that his own video shows he really has no reason to complain about TRs. He is just biased against them and wants them nerfed more even if it means all the other classes get nerfed as well. His own video and thread makes him look like a fool who whines because he simply wants to whine. This type of player is even worse than the ones that need to learn to play because they want to destroy the game for everyone else without even having a valid reason.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
I'm a cw, I play against top rogues daily (In lemonade stand, we do premades vs each other and there are no weak players and try playing with someone like foosoo targetting you repeatedly) superstealth rogues are my kryptonite however I will beat them since the last patch at about 3/5 (they win 5 to my 3 in a 1 vs 1 at around same gear) now given that I beat any other class handily in a 1 vs 1 I cant complain too much about control wizards, rogues are not overpowered though they do have incredibly annoying abilities.
Abac I've played you many times you have a bad tendency to sit on your at wills and not move, to beat rogues you have to play paranoid, constant movement, time dodges to match them entering stealth etc. If rogues are a problem for you spec better in feats; pure damage is great but isn't the way to win 1 vs 1s. Repel is an underrated ability but devastating in 1 vs 1 especially for beating rogues and keeping distance, its also instant cast meaning you find the rogue in stealth you can hit it and immediately jump them out ready for your choke. If your into defending the point it also means your team scoring everytime you get them off the point.
Bottom line is adjust how your playing and you'll see rogues aren't as bad as they were prepatch they are now very beatable for a good cw.
Yeah, post patch I've thought about changing to repel + ray, especially against GF. The problem I see with that is the lowered DPS. Also, unless repel is tabbed, doesn't fully help my team when it's getting clogged. Repel can be a pain too if we are 2vs1 and I knock the opponent away since I’m getting all the love. I feel the ball is more versatile and repel is better 1vs1 against some classes.
Could you please explain more about the moving around part? Do you mean with ports or by feet? When I started to play PVP I ported some in between but over time I've noticed that it will kill me more in the end. I really needed to save ports. If with feet, how does that make it harder for the rogue if I walk around? When I’m capping a base I normally stand still close to the center to see if the icon changes when a rogue enters.
What annoys me is the totally unbalanced ability stealth that initially allows them one more card in a poker game. That in combination with Impact shot or Lashing makes me initially sometimes the player with two cards on my hand in the same poker game. Premade is different since you have better knowledge where players are and learn the structure of attacks. In PUGs anything can and will happen which makes it harder to see the attacks since there are often 2 TR in each team.
I often win against rogues but even if I only get stealth killed once every second match it’s still too much. If however top rogues enter the field they can kill me with Impact shots where the first attack came from when they stealthed out of sight. I sitting with my poker cards and the opponent brought a gun.
Trust me… I’m hitting that port so hard my keyboard is complaining. Maybe it’s random or my ping is too bad (150-200) but sometimes there is NO way I can press anything until I’m dead from 3x Impact shots. The game should be about skill not unseen attacks.
I’m seriously considering making a program that ports 30 times per second to see if it’s always possible to get out.
Comments
You're complaining that you can't win a 2v1? Maybe CWs should be nerfed. Best I can do 2v1 is MAYBE kill 1 with all encounters and a daily, and then have to run away.
PvP is a team sport.
2 TR means twice the risk to get attacked from stealth, but maybe not at the same time. If I see them I can avoid them more easy.
In WoW Rogues could truly "perma stealth"... In this game it lasts what 8 seconds? And most TRs dont even know how to play properly but then again... most CWs dont either...
If your having TR issues, maybe re-evaluate the way you are playing... Ill even offer this, record a few matches of you playing and post them here and ill review them and tell you what to change :P
Sorry man, but your logic is flawed.
Saying L2P for this game does not apply to you because you played very well RIFT, WoW, EQ, etc.... is the same same as me saying that because i am a very good programmer that i should not learn how to develop a network before getting hired for that specific job.
The experience you have on those games, even though counts a lot for your gamer background means the same as 0 when evaluating your performance on this game, because NWNO is different in too many aspects from those games.
When we, rogues, come to the forum and drop the classic L2P bomb, even though it may be offensive for someone as seasoned as you in games, has the purpose of pointing one of the following ideas:
1- Level a rogue, play with it, see it's flaws, and then come here to post.
2- Learn how to counter the class (which is easier if you accomplish number 1)
I used to think for example that permastealth build would be the most OP thing EVER, untill i tried mine. When i played the class with that build, i could see more clearly the flaws of rogues, how they actually work, how hard they are punished by a mistep, and SPECIALLY, how to counter them, but i had to play the class to be sure.
Thats the reason why i am not gonna create 50 threads saying GF is op, or GWF, or CW, because i never played those in dept on pvp matches, so if they have weaknesses, i am not fully aware of them, and i want to play the classes before making judgment of it, and thats pretty much what many of the complainers should do before trying to shove nerfs up our butts and saying we can still take more.
so botton line, if you are getting punished hard by rogues, it has to be one of the following:
1- you do not know how to counter them
2- you are unlucky and keep bashing into the few elite with multiple gtenes, pvorpal and rank 8+ enchants on their gear, and those guys are heavy spenders on the game for the sole purpose of having a OP build, and that can apply to any class, not just rogues.
There is no denying that equally skilled rogue can kill a cw, the problem occurs when there is more than 1 on the team.
Look at all current threads, it's never a class complaining about 2 or 3 other classes, its always a single class complaining about another single class, sure rogue is being mentioned more than other classes but that's just because the rogues can always get a kill on certain class, whereas a class like CW will have more even odds against other classes.
That's a trade off most rogues can take "I can't kill gwf/gf fast enough, but I can always 1shot cw/dc". it's not about l2p at all. that's why you don't see many QQ threads from rogues, because even after nerfs they can still get their satisfaction of easy kills.
Not really sure if the video will say anything else then what I've been saying. It's not like I'm losing against the average rogue. The problem I have is that stealth is unfair in PVP... even if I may or may not kill them more than they kill me.
It's like targeting your favorite Lemonade Stand guild member and killing them all game. Right? Right!
true to some extent, but gwfs, gfs and even cws can get easy kills on rogues, cw will just have a harder time than the others but every rogue that gets out of stealth too soon near a CW is as good as dead (the same way that a CW that mess up and get hit by lashing is on a pretty tight spot too, so its a matter of who will perform better with his class), but we dont spam the forums complaining on every class that kills us because when we get killed is because the enemy knew how to counter us, or because we messed up, but thats L2P in a nutshell.
there is no such thing as a class standing on top of all others at the moment, every class has its strong points and its weak points, rogues for example are squashed like bugs the moment stealth ends as long as the people targetting it arent completelly braindead.
I saw many threads with people qqing that CoS was OP...well, sure it was, when you are a wooden board uncapable of dodging/blocking/running away from it.
Then threads on stealth, which can be depleted by damaging the rogue with AoEs.
Then i saw threads saying Impacts were OP...well, they are pretty slow to shoot, have minimal range, 3 charges on a far longer CD than CoS, and it can be dodged/blocked/avoided by running away from its reach, the plus side is that each impact does a good damage.
Then they say Lashing is OP, and i reply with the same: Its dodgable, its blockable, and will hardly put down a class that doesnt have either of the previous ones in 1 shot (yes i mean GWF)
resuming the list, EVERY one of rogue's skills are counterable and most of the strongest are counterable with so much brainwork as pressind a/w/s/d twice. Am i saying that all classes will roll over rogues with ease? No some will have more trouble or will face more danger due to low HP and defense, such as CWs, but player a player with good skills on his class can bring victory against anything.
May be hard to hear that again but most of the crying on forum is nothing but a L2P issue, and given that posts teaching people how to beat TRs are all over the QQ threads, the issue is quickly going from L2P to L2Read, but as was mentioned more than once, crying is easier than learning.
Everyone needs to learn how to play and it absolutely applies for me too. I have played this game since May. Maybe average 5+ hours per day mostly PVP. I think I should have passed that threshold by now?
My logic is like Spocks.
I try to avoid L2P because there will ALWAYS be someone better than you at any game, and throwing the phrase out there randomly is bound to hit someone that knows something you might not.
How about I put this chain combo for you, let us see how you counter it as a CW:
1. CW is capping a point (fully decked, full tenes, perfect everything)
2. TR comes to the same point using skills: PoB, Impact, ITC (fully decked, full tenes, perfect everything)
Now your turn. Tell me what skills would you use and how would you counter or escape.
I would push the rezz button...wait what?
Didn't turn out so well for my team and after a while someone said: -Abac and the other CWs name, you suck and should stop playing this game.
That one is on me. Tomorrow maybe my eyes will work.
Another unskilled player calling for nerfs. What the latest round of nerfs was not enough for you? Learn to play instead of trying to ruin the game for everyone else. Keep in mind your class might just be nerfed along with the class you want nerfed. Every class has its advantages and disadvantages. Learn to overcome the disadvantages in your class and use the ones in the class you are fighting. Lets see what core abilities can be taken away from CWs if the devs nerf stealth. hmm. Peace Out!
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Thank you for verifying my opinion that abacuser is a stupid player. Fighting more than one rogue, falling for obvious traps, losing, and coming to the forums to cry over it is simply pathetic. I wonder if abacuser ever heard of the tenerbrous enchantments. Any class player can stack them to kill anyone in pvp.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
LOL... this guy.
OK, so what have we established here:
- you were better than the local mall or game fair population at Nintendo games;
- you were in a good Quake team;
- you were a good bard in EQ1;
- you were in a good Rift guild;
- it's likely (your words) that you were good at PvP in Rift.
- you aren't very good at fighting Rogues in Neverwinter
Of all of these things, which is the most relevant in establishing your credentials for being an authority on the development and balance of Neverwinter? Hmm...
Also regarding the GF vs Rogue thing. Prove it. Roll one, record it and link it. Until then, get over yourself and try to offer something a little more substantive than "I think I'm awesome and this game sucks".
Learn to play again? Not so kingly. Only dead fish follow the stream... but a king should make his own ways, wouldn't you say? Not just say what about 50 % of this forum already said. Actually, there is a saying. If you point one finger at someone else you point 3 fingers at yourself at the same time.
Anyway to the fun stuff, my first video (my eyes are pretty OK after resting in bed). The file became huge so I had to cut and compress it to be able to upload it today since its 1 am here. First minute I was recording at 30 FPS but it was unplayable since it altered my in-game FPS too so I changed it to 60 FPS. That is why the video doesn't start when the match starts.
Nothing out of the ordinary. 4 TR, as usual. There are ofc some Impact shots from stealth.
So here it is (in like 30 mins from I post this): http://youtu.be/9uat_Qdb23c
And before you complain, this is my first video ever and I can upload as many as you want. I just wanted to upload one today before bedtime.
But as you can see above this post I've posted my first video. Where I also die from stealth Impact shot.
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger
There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
Abac I've played you many times you have a bad tendency to sit on your at wills and not move, to beat rogues you have to play paranoid, constant movement, time dodges to match them entering stealth etc. If rogues are a problem for you spec better in feats; pure damage is great but isn't the way to win 1 vs 1s. Repel is an underrated ability but devastating in 1 vs 1 especially for beating rogues and keeping distance, its also instant cast meaning you find the rogue in stealth you can hit it and immediately jump them out ready for your choke. If your into defending the point it also means your team scoring everytime you get them off the point.
Bottom line is adjust how your playing and you'll see rogues aren't as bad as they were prepatch they are now very beatable for a good cw.
50% of the forum agrees you should learn to play? hmmmm. Guess it is good advice and you are too full of yourself to take it. You do not even know the attacks the tr was using against you. The TR was using cloud of steel to first injure you, then shadow strike to stay stealthed, impact shot once or twice, and finished you off with cloud of steel. Oh yeah, the tr used bait and switch to stay stealthed as well. You did decently for CW in the video and yet you come here to whine like a little baby. Seriously this game would be tons better if it did not have cry babies like you in it ruining the game for everyone else. It seems you are in the category of crying because you feel like it and not the learn to play category. Whiners like you are even lower than people who need to learn to play. Let people point fingers at me because it seems 50% or more of the people on the forums agree. The nerfs already were enough and there is no need for more. Yet cry babies still cry and whine even when they do not have a reason to cry.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Ah so it is a learn to play issue and not crying because abac feels like it. Guess the rest of the forums are right.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
I don't have to. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. You claim Rogues are broken. I do not. Believe it or not, I have no problem with further class balancing provided it is justified through proper testing and analysis of the issue. I take issue with your posts because you offer no justification or evidence supporting your assertions. If you give me a good reason to nerf Rogues I might even back you.
If you want people to take you seriously stop asking your peers to just "trust you" or believe your tales of woe. You have no recognized expert authority on game balance. Your opinion carries as much weight as mine or anyone else in this thread. Just saying so isn't good enough.
What I suggest you do is:
1) Go back over the posts that say you are doing something wrong and offer advice on how to improve.
2) Try the advice.
3) Form some proper arguments as to why the Rogue should be nerfed.
4) Offer evidence supporting your arguments.
Raging or whining on these forums doesn't get you what you want. It just makes you look stupid and erodes any legitimate point you might have.
Ilyuma right? (sorry if not lol), you're missing the point, you compare our premades (where btw we never send CW against a TR.....EVER, unless he's fighting some other rogue and you just go to help him) to pugs where you are queued against more than 1 rogue, uneven geared players etc'.
and once again I don't think its a L2P issue.
Is what its all about, I need to change what im doing for perma stealth TR's, I need to adjust for fighers, I need to adjust for groups heavy on different classes. Took me a while to figure out how to take on fighters without getting perma stun prone all the time, I made the adjustments and now I have a good fight with them typically.
Most people seem to think the ONE way they have learned to play is THE ONLY way and the BEST way for ALL situations.
Is it PoB into Stealth, Impact Shot (breaks stealth) then ItC or is it PoB from Stealth, ItC into Impact? Does the CW see the Rogue coming? I can't imagine that being too effective as the PoB tells you where the Rogue is while in stealth. Wouldn't that be easy to kite with momentum changes? That said, if the CW gets caught in the PoB it's going to hurt with the Tene procs and the Rogue will be able to move the CW off the objective if the CW wants to live.
well, my knowledge on CW is flawed, but here is my guess for a fighting option:
1- PoB isnt damaging enough so it would prolly just mitigate my shield
2- rogue will likelly be on stealth before tossing the first impact so i will be stunned, ok, so 2 hits are likelly to hit, but after the first toss, to avoid being CCed he would pop ItC, which would give me more than enough time to recover and start teleports to avoid the remaining 3 (i would watch his animation, if he makes a full baseball throwing motion i know impact is coming, so teleport and wait for the next)
3- ItC only lasts 5 secs, and if he attempts many impacts he will be standing still for that time, so no need to waste teleports to get away from him, i just need to teleport when impacts are coming and as soon as his ItC is over i start a force choke, followed by some magic missiles or ray of frost to keep him stuck, follow up with the skill that stun players, forgot the name but its right next to conduit of ice.
4- renew my shield to soak incoming damage and keep the stunlock combo
5- when he gets to 40% less hp, ice knife
its worth to mention also that impact will give you a slight push distancing you form rogue and the skill has quite a small range when compared to CoS, so teleport once will remove you from his reach if its on the opposing direction from the rogue, you however still have reach to stun him and begin your permaCC rotation.
but again, i am not a pro at cw or anything, its just a rough sketch of what to do, when i level mine some more and get the grip of how the skills work i can come up with better rotations.
for scape its even easier, just stun then teleport away. He just burned his stealth on first impact shot and it wont be renewed so soon, so he wont have sneak attack mobility activated, 3 teleports on the opposing direction and you are safe, but try to go as close as possible to your teammates and fight as a group if you are not confident you can take him 1 on 1.
Also, worth to mention that as a CW soloing a rogue on a point cap, its worth to take your distance, even if it means leaving the capping area, first take control over the fight, then you worry about the point.
Close but a couple of other things happened as well:
- he was at approximately 65% health when the first CoS daggers hit
- he actually dodged the Shadow Strike so he didn't get dazed
- as he summoned his bowling ball the Rogue pops lurkers (you can hear it as the ball lands) and the Rogue briefly appears in front of him so this was taken post patch (mistake by the rogue)
- first impact is dodged, second lands and doesn't break stealth coz of lurkers but lurkers expires shortly after hence bait and switch
- couple more CoS and finish with third Impact.
So the rogue was forced to pretty well blow everything to kill a half-dead CW. On the other hand the GFs take him apart a few times from full health (only one death though) and it's the Rogue that needs the nerf... Now I really don't understand where apac is coming from. Had that last Impact Shot not landed, the Rogue would have had to disengage. He was one dodge away from getting away or turning the tables on the Rogue (and apac dodged well).
I don't understand how that engagement could be considered horribly imbalanced.
Thanks for correcting me and giving me an idea. Lurker's Assault is why the rogue did not break stealth with impact shot. I missed the sound of LA. I agree that his own video shows he really has no reason to complain about TRs. He is just biased against them and wants them nerfed more even if it means all the other classes get nerfed as well. His own video and thread makes him look like a fool who whines because he simply wants to whine. This type of player is even worse than the ones that need to learn to play because they want to destroy the game for everyone else without even having a valid reason.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Could you please explain more about the moving around part? Do you mean with ports or by feet? When I started to play PVP I ported some in between but over time I've noticed that it will kill me more in the end. I really needed to save ports. If with feet, how does that make it harder for the rogue if I walk around? When I’m capping a base I normally stand still close to the center to see if the icon changes when a rogue enters.
What annoys me is the totally unbalanced ability stealth that initially allows them one more card in a poker game. That in combination with Impact shot or Lashing makes me initially sometimes the player with two cards on my hand in the same poker game. Premade is different since you have better knowledge where players are and learn the structure of attacks. In PUGs anything can and will happen which makes it harder to see the attacks since there are often 2 TR in each team.
I often win against rogues but even if I only get stealth killed once every second match it’s still too much. If however top rogues enter the field they can kill me with Impact shots where the first attack came from when they stealthed out of sight. I sitting with my poker cards and the opponent brought a gun.
Trust me… I’m hitting that port so hard my keyboard is complaining. Maybe it’s random or my ping is too bad (150-200) but sometimes there is NO way I can press anything until I’m dead from 3x Impact shots. The game should be about skill not unseen attacks.
I’m seriously considering making a program that ports 30 times per second to see if it’s always possible to get out.