New here and liking the concept of this build, is it the same for module 2? Also, what is the Iron Vanguard build folks are referencing above? I hate the search "feature" of these forums....
The Iron Vanguard 'build' is using the new Paragon Path for Sentinel spec via the Module 2 release from this past Thursday. You can be either a Swordmaster or a Iron Vanguard, and as a Sentinel you most definitely want to be an Iron Vanguard!
It affects Power choices, and you can see them when you choose the path. Some of the abilities are named above also, in the posts before this, if that helps!
First , thank you sooo much for your builds/comments and help it's really nice. It helped me a lot, and i enjoy reading you : )
I just have a little question:
I wanted to know if the talent Student of the Sword is really more interesting than disciple of war(destroyer tree), espacially in pvp if you have a bit of recovery (vigilant war lord set)
As always, happy to be of service!
I do think Student of the Sword is better the DoW, it is useful for you and your party. Keep it, and the new Dread Ring boons, one gives you 250 ArmPen, I'd go with that instead...
Full regen build? Sorry, I'm still rather new. I know that regen comes on gear, but outside that, I have no clue. I really like the pvp in this game and want to have a solid build to learn it. My gwf is still lowish level. So, I know there's only so much to work with right now.
Here's a typical Regen/Deflect/Defense build that is quite easy to acquire if you put sometime in your toon. More streamlined for PvP than Kolatmaster's.
You go Iron Vanguard, grab Sure Strike, Threatening Rush. Then Indomitable battle strike/Roar/Take down and personally I went for Trample the Fallen/Weapon Mastery.
Hit Unstoppable and watch regen ticks get you back up, while you deflect and absorb lots of damage. It's one of the cheesiest and more effective PvP builds. It usually takes more than 2 players to nuke you down and if you are good at it (or your opponents are bad) you may as well 1v2 them to death.
You can't in the Gateway. I will check if nwcalculator is updated and I will post a link.
Edit: Not updated yet. But it's not rocket science. You take all the feats that make Sentinel hard to kill (from Sentinel tree) and give 5 points to either the 'bleed from Criticals' tier 1 ability or anything else you feel like.
If you are rich enough, you'll get Rank 8++ in all the enchants you see (probably you'll Replace Silveries with Radiants...but Silveries were soooo much cheaper), and a Perfect Enchant in your weapon and armor. Oh and if you are so desperate to win PvP, grab Tenebrous and roll.
I have one concern. Does sentinel/iron vanguard do good dps? I've seen people chatting in game about how they couldn't kill fast enough.
I would say IV-Sentinel does respectable DPS, particularly if you are able to utilize Powerful Challenge for the extra 15% Damage to Marked targets and keep Marks on them. Or use your rotation correctly to alternate Threatening Rush and then X At-Will/Encounter/Daily. When done correctly you can put out much more damage then a Swordmaster Sentinel, hold threat better, and be a boon to your party.
PS - HidaHyabusa is spot on with his review of the PvP aspects of the Sentinel.
Been testing different variations of Sentinel on the test shard, and currently I am leaning towards a more DPS oriented spec. Mind you this is more PvE oriented and would only PvP for lulz. (Hence I am not using Unstoppable Recovery!)
Weapon Master
Trample the Fallen Bravery (Slotted more for when soloing/keeping a boss in check, or making CN runs!)
At-Wills:
Threatening Rush
Wicked Strike
Encounters:
Battle Fury (Loving this, particularly with the new party buff!) Punishing Charge (Useful for Kiting adds in FH/Karru/etc, and AP generation!) Restoring Strike (Duh!) Frontline Surge (Triggers Trample the Fallen...) Not So Fast (Triggers Trample the Fallen...) Indomitable Battle Strike (Cause I like killing things.)
Dailies:
Indomitable Strength
Slam
So that's where I'm headed. Still use full Vigilant Warlord for running through Dungeons, and the full Titan when tanking large about of adds or a boss. The extra damage from Deep Gash uber bleed, and the Trample the Fallen (particularly when CWs spam their powers) plus using judicious use of Threating Rush followed by an Encounter power to trigger Powerful Challenge... LEEROY JENKINS now does respectable DPS. Nothing like a Destro/Intsitgator spec, but he kills things quite a bit faster then before and that helps the team a lot.
Also I've been testing out a PerfectFeytouched Enchantment on his weapon and I have been enjoying immensely, more so then Bronzewood thus far. It increases my DPS and helps the party take less damage over all also. Particularly on bosses... So check it out!
Note: The above is subject to change when we go live, but I've been enjoying it thus far... Thoughts?
Could you post a pic, here or in the GWF pic thread of your new Perfect Feytouched so we can see the effects? I haven't actually seen one on someone in PE yet.
And how much more agro generation do you get from Battle Trample, verses the old Leeroy without? Any points where it drops off for you in different kinds of fights or party compositions?
We went almost the same route with our Sentinels, except I run Bravery all the time for the run speed help in lining up Frontline. And I took Intimidation instead of Master at Arms, after all that stupid alpha add stuff in Sharandar that was CC immune. How much CC immunity are you encountering in the Dread Ring?
Must say.. Your build here works perfect for pvp lol. Seems to me sent gwf has become a bit OP in pvp. Havent met one that could take me 1v1 in pvp pugs yet and ive done a few. i can even sometimes win 3v1 fights. Actually msot of the times i win 3v1. Anyways great build, sure make a lot of dps in epics aswell and tanking whatever you want. Great job from here!
con focus kinda sucks btw. steely defense would contribute a bit more imo. I believe 3/3 con focus is the same as 1 point in toughness, i could be wrong.
For 24 in Con, it's supposed to be like getting 2 more points in Con, which gives you both more HP and Armor Pen. If that's true, investing in increasing 2 stats at once compared with linking an increase in one stat with however much you end up with in another seems a better investment to me.
Could you post a pic, here or in the GWF pic thread of your new Perfect Feytouched so we can see the effects? I haven't actually seen one on someone in PE yet.
And how much more agro generation do you get from Battle Trample, verses the old Leeroy without? Any points where it drops off for you in different kinds of fights or party compositions?
We went almost the same route with our Sentinels, except I run Bravery all the time for the run speed help in lining up Frontline. And I took Intimidation instead of Master at Arms, after all that stupid alpha add stuff in Sharandar that was CC immune. How much CC immunity are you encountering in the Dread Ring?
I'll get a pic of it sure, sometime early next week... Have a few things to work out, but almost ready for a major update.
I get much more aggro generation with Battle Trample, I can now actually hold adds w/o major worry of them being pulled off. They can be, but it's no longer the norm and more rare. If there is a particularly high DPS CW, who is on point, their Daily Ice Knife can draw aggro off, they need to give you the chance to get the baddies full attention... Once you have it, you should be able to maintain it.
I haven't had an issue lining up Frontline Surge because of speed, I just need to practice more and be less itchy on the trigger finger, particularly in PvP! lol
Must say.. Your build here works perfect for pvp lol. Seems to me sent gwf has become a bit OP in pvp. Haven't met one that could take me 1v1 in pvp pugs yet and ive done a few. i can even sometimes win 3v1 fights. Actually msot of the times i win 3v1. Anyways great build, sure make a lot of dps in epics aswell and tanking whatever you want. Great job from here!
Sentinel IV in PvP is a superb spec, and there is enough balance within the IV path that you can tailor it a bit also. I usually have no problem 2v1-3v1 when in random PUGs, and can even survive for a long time on 4v1s. However versus premades that is a different story...
Example: Yesterday I was just pugging, and faced a premade from Lemonade Stand (don't remember who was in it unfortunately), however they were able to 2v1 me very often with another GWF and X person. Sometimes 2 GWFs were coming at me... Most of my group left, but whatever, their loss. I had a blast, ended up going 5-2... Though in defense of Lemonade Stand's skilled players I enacted my 'Tao of Disengagement' as effectively as possible whenever I could. As when it's a 3 versus 5, staying to hold a point and get melted 3v1 or better (yes absolutely melted, not a prayer!), strategic retreat is a beneficial idea...
Any issues with using this build while leveling, or is this a max-level build only?
Not really... I mean, it's leveling... Use Lifesteal/Regen items and kill all the things! However, to begin building towards endgame is a good idea and where it truly begins to shine. Though once you hit the post'heroic tier of Feats you start becoming hard to kill when soloing content!
con focus kinda sucks btw. steely defense would contribute a bit more imo. I believe 3/3 con focus is the same as 1 point in toughness, i could be wrong.
Yea that was a mistake on my part honestly, as the difference was only about 800hp and I'm already at ArmPen cap pre-250 ArmPen boon from Dread Ring.
For 24 in Con, it's supposed to be like getting 2 more points in Con, which gives you both more HP and Armor Pen. If that's true, investing in increasing 2 stats at once compared with linking an increase in one stat with however much you end up with in another seems a better investment to me.
Now on the flipside as odd111out states, the extra HPs/ArmPen can (and is) very beneficial, particularly in a full "I'm Never Going To Die" Sentinel spec.
My base Con is 23, pre-Campfire, and I've found in the past day or two that the extra power is more to my liking. Just a preference for the build...
In the coming days I'll have a major update, and I want to give a shout out to grimah and odd111out as you both have been instrumental in testing, bouncing ideas off, and just generally all around awesome people...
After quite a bit of testing on the test shard, live testing with Module 2 and many Dungeon runs w/PvP thrown in, I am confident I have an updated spec for everyone’s favorite Sentinel GWF… LEEEEEERRRRROOOOOYYYYYY JEEEEEENNNNNKKKKKIIIINNNNNSSSSS!!!
So let’s start in PvE shall we? A note that all these updated points/feats/etc. are directed towards PvE, the bonuses to PvP (where there are some) are simply icing on the proverbial cake.
Sentinel Tree / Iron Vanguard Paragon Path
For my generic PvE spec, I have the Fomorian Mainhand/Offhand, a Perfect Vorpal (more on this later), Perfect Soulforged, and a combination of Rank 7s/8s/9s in my Offensive/Defensive/Utility spots. 2x Titan Helm and Chest) and 2x Vigilant Warlord (Arms/Feet) for HP and Recovery bonuses. Yea, I’m pretty tricked out… Been rocking this spec since May so a lot of time, farming, and some AD/Zen here and there, went in to him! My stats are as shown here:
For my DPS PvE spec, I have the Fomorian Mainhand/Offhand, a Perfect Vorpal, Perfect Briartwine, a combination of 7s/8s/9s in my Offensive/Defensive/Utility spots. For armor set I use a full Avatar of War because more power is good for hitting baddies in the face, and for proc’ing higher bleed from Deep Gash! My stats are as shown here:
My PvE Power Rotation is the same for both:
At-Will:
Threatening Rush
Wicked Strike
Encounters:
Come and Get It
Not So Fast
Indomitable Battle Strike
For PvP I run Titan Mainhand/Offhand, a Perfect Feywild, a Perfect Soulforged, 2x Titan and 2x Imposing Scrapper (Yay HPs!). 2x Greater Ring of Health, and 1x Thickgristle’s Belt. My stats are as shown here:
(Note: I may have taken these pics with my Ioun Stone on by mistake, however the Regen stat is all from base items/boons/artifacts, and the Lifesteal should be abour 9-10% for PvP itself. I will double check though!)
As before I use an Ioun Stone of Allure, and my other companions are: Rust Monster (I enjoy the debuff to baddies damage), Vicious Direwolf (Really love his interrupt ability!), Sylph (Yay resisting Control effects!), and the new Blacksmith (Baddies take damage when they hit me? Yes please!).
Now comes my feat selection:
Above you will see that I have selected this strictly for PvE in mind, but it obvisouly does well in PvP also as Sentinel IV is good in the scenario.
In PvE my rotation revolves around using Threatening Rush to mark a target and then following up with a Wicked Strike rotation or an Encounter Power. This is, obviously, designated to maintain the 30% cumulative damage bonus from having a target Marked w/Powerful Challenge. This can get to 45% more damage if they are CC'd in some way via Trample the Fallen and your encounter abilities or someone on your teams.
It requires a bit of practice to get used too, but the benefits are amazing. You hold aggro so much better then before, thanks to Battle Trample and the Deep Gash bleed effect, particularly in the DPS spec I've been testing. (Special thanks to Grimah here as our joint testing and his suggestions have led directly to this!)
PvPing is also something to note, where you can use Threatening Rush to close the gap on anyone. Sentinel IV is a trainwreck for PUGs that face it. Though a solid premade team can kite/focus fire a Sentinel IV down in a short timeframe with planning/strategy. How do I know this? Because it's happened to me! Just ask FaceControl!
Either way, I am surpremlely happy with where GWFs are currently... Strong in PvE and strong in PvP.
Well done devs!
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wikkedjrMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2013
Hey buddy, great info as always. Thanks for putting the time in to share all of this with us. Can I ask what stones you have slotted in your ioun stone?
Hey buddy, great info as always. Thanks for putting the time in to share all of this with us. Can I ask what stones you have slotted in your ioun stone?
Of course, right now I have (I believe)... 2 Rank 8 Darks in Offensive Slots for ArmPen, one will be traded out for a Radiant of equal level once I ge tthe 250 Dread Ring Boon tomorrow, and I believe the other is Radiant.
I'll check when I am on today and edit this post then.
Thanks for posting this detailed update, kolatmaster - I'll definitely be looking at this new guide for my IV Sentinel toon.
I'd also like to attest to the quality of this build for other readers, as I ran my CW with LEEROY and some of his guildies last night in Valindra's Tower and was blown away by how much damage output he was doing! My CW really had to hustle to keep up with his DPS
Thanks for posting this detailed update, kolatmaster - I'll definitely be looking at this new guide for my IV Sentinel toon.
Anytime, I feel its important for information (hopefully GOOD information! lol) is out there for people to use as a resource. Plus everyone's comments have been a great help in making the build(s), and myself, better... So a big thank you to all from me! :cool:
I'd also like to attest to the quality of this build for other readers, as I ran my CW with LEEROY and some of his guildies last night in Valindra's Tower and was blown away by how much damage output he was doing! My CW really had to hustle to keep up with his DPS
I think I had 11.5 million prior to Valindra herself, right?
Nope, 11.2... lol
The build is doing comparable damage to Dakkon Blackblade with his Perfect Terror enchantment post Mod 2 (he is still Swordmaster currently so take that into account!).
It's all about weaving your powers correctly and using Threatening Rush prior to any Encounter Power such as Not So Fast/Indomitable Battle Strike. I still goof it up sometimes, more often then I'd like to admit!
Either way I am extremely happy with the "DPS" Sentinel spec that has come to be. Once again special thanks to Grimah (who I believe had the original idea for using AoW/P.Vorpal, then we ran a muck testing it!) and odd111out for batting ideas off each other. :cool:
I think I had 11.5 million prior to Valindra herself, right?
Nope, 11.2... lol
Yep, and that was me trailing in second - I couldn't seem to keep up!
I think you have definitely hit a magic spot with this current Sentinel build - high damage output which allows you to hold aggro/tank, and to survive the mobs as well. I'm not as geared as LEEROY with my Sentinel but will take a look at what I can tweak to move in this direction - thanks again!
Comments
The Iron Vanguard 'build' is using the new Paragon Path for Sentinel spec via the Module 2 release from this past Thursday. You can be either a Swordmaster or a Iron Vanguard, and as a Sentinel you most definitely want to be an Iron Vanguard!
It affects Power choices, and you can see them when you choose the path. Some of the abilities are named above also, in the posts before this, if that helps!
Any Sentinel spec is viable for PvP, really. I'd say a full Regen build would be better, of course, but yea this works...
As always, happy to be of service!
I do think Student of the Sword is better the DoW, it is useful for you and your party. Keep it, and the new Dread Ring boons, one gives you 250 ArmPen, I'd go with that instead...
Bhatul the Kind Dwarf
You go Iron Vanguard, grab Sure Strike, Threatening Rush. Then Indomitable battle strike/Roar/Take down and personally I went for Trample the Fallen/Weapon Mastery.
Hit Unstoppable and watch regen ticks get you back up, while you deflect and absorb lots of damage. It's one of the cheesiest and more effective PvP builds. It usually takes more than 2 players to nuke you down and if you are good at it (or your opponents are bad) you may as well 1v2 them to death.
P.S: Love you Dan. Long live the Dwarves.
Edit: Not updated yet. But it's not rocket science. You take all the feats that make Sentinel hard to kill (from Sentinel tree) and give 5 points to either the 'bleed from Criticals' tier 1 ability or anything else you feel like.
If you are rich enough, you'll get Rank 8++ in all the enchants you see (probably you'll Replace Silveries with Radiants...but Silveries were soooo much cheaper), and a Perfect Enchant in your weapon and armor. Oh and if you are so desperate to win PvP, grab Tenebrous and roll.
It's really easy to play and learn.
I would say IV-Sentinel does respectable DPS, particularly if you are able to utilize Powerful Challenge for the extra 15% Damage to Marked targets and keep Marks on them. Or use your rotation correctly to alternate Threatening Rush and then X At-Will/Encounter/Daily. When done correctly you can put out much more damage then a Swordmaster Sentinel, hold threat better, and be a boon to your party.
PS - HidaHyabusa is spot on with his review of the PvP aspects of the Sentinel.
Why the hell can't I edit posts?
Ask a question whenever ya want!
Could you post a pic, here or in the GWF pic thread of your new Perfect Feytouched so we can see the effects? I haven't actually seen one on someone in PE yet.
And how much more agro generation do you get from Battle Trample, verses the old Leeroy without? Any points where it drops off for you in different kinds of fights or party compositions?
We went almost the same route with our Sentinels, except I run Bravery all the time for the run speed help in lining up Frontline. And I took Intimidation instead of Master at Arms, after all that stupid alpha add stuff in Sharandar that was CC immune. How much CC immunity are you encountering in the Dread Ring?
con focus kinda sucks btw. steely defense would contribute a bit more imo. I believe 3/3 con focus is the same as 1 point in toughness, i could be wrong.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?536731-constitution-focus
For 24 in Con, it's supposed to be like getting 2 more points in Con, which gives you both more HP and Armor Pen. If that's true, investing in increasing 2 stats at once compared with linking an increase in one stat with however much you end up with in another seems a better investment to me.
I'll get a pic of it sure, sometime early next week... Have a few things to work out, but almost ready for a major update.
I get much more aggro generation with Battle Trample, I can now actually hold adds w/o major worry of them being pulled off. They can be, but it's no longer the norm and more rare. If there is a particularly high DPS CW, who is on point, their Daily Ice Knife can draw aggro off, they need to give you the chance to get the baddies full attention... Once you have it, you should be able to maintain it.
I haven't had an issue lining up Frontline Surge because of speed, I just need to practice more and be less itchy on the trigger finger, particularly in PvP! lol
Sentinel IV in PvP is a superb spec, and there is enough balance within the IV path that you can tailor it a bit also. I usually have no problem 2v1-3v1 when in random PUGs, and can even survive for a long time on 4v1s. However versus premades that is a different story...
Example: Yesterday I was just pugging, and faced a premade from Lemonade Stand (don't remember who was in it unfortunately), however they were able to 2v1 me very often with another GWF and X person. Sometimes 2 GWFs were coming at me... Most of my group left, but whatever, their loss. I had a blast, ended up going 5-2... Though in defense of Lemonade Stand's skilled players I enacted my 'Tao of Disengagement' as effectively as possible whenever I could. As when it's a 3 versus 5, staying to hold a point and get melted 3v1 or better (yes absolutely melted, not a prayer!), strategic retreat is a beneficial idea...
Not really... I mean, it's leveling... Use Lifesteal/Regen items and kill all the things! However, to begin building towards endgame is a good idea and where it truly begins to shine. Though once you hit the post'heroic tier of Feats you start becoming hard to kill when soloing content!
Yea that was a mistake on my part honestly, as the difference was only about 800hp and I'm already at ArmPen cap pre-250 ArmPen boon from Dread Ring.
The extra power is just good.
Now on the flipside as odd111out states, the extra HPs/ArmPen can (and is) very beneficial, particularly in a full "I'm Never Going To Die" Sentinel spec.
My base Con is 23, pre-Campfire, and I've found in the past day or two that the extra power is more to my liking. Just a preference for the build...
In the coming days I'll have a major update, and I want to give a shout out to grimah and odd111out as you both have been instrumental in testing, bouncing ideas off, and just generally all around awesome people...
After quite a bit of testing on the test shard, live testing with Module 2 and many Dungeon runs w/PvP thrown in, I am confident I have an updated spec for everyone’s favorite Sentinel GWF… LEEEEEERRRRROOOOOYYYYYY JEEEEEENNNNNKKKKKIIIINNNNNSSSSS!!!
So let’s start in PvE shall we? A note that all these updated points/feats/etc. are directed towards PvE, the bonuses to PvP (where there are some) are simply icing on the proverbial cake.
Sentinel Tree / Iron Vanguard Paragon Path
For my generic PvE spec, I have the Fomorian Mainhand/Offhand, a Perfect Vorpal (more on this later), Perfect Soulforged, and a combination of Rank 7s/8s/9s in my Offensive/Defensive/Utility spots. 2x Titan Helm and Chest) and 2x Vigilant Warlord (Arms/Feet) for HP and Recovery bonuses. Yea, I’m pretty tricked out… Been rocking this spec since May so a lot of time, farming, and some AD/Zen here and there, went in to him! My stats are as shown here:
My PvE Power Rotation is the same for both:
At-Will:
Threatening Rush
Wicked Strike
Encounters:
Come and Get It
Not So Fast
Indomitable Battle Strike
Dailies:
Indomitable Strength
Slam
Passives:
Weapon Master
Trample the Fallen
(Note: I may have taken these pics with my Ioun Stone on by mistake, however the Regen stat is all from base items/boons/artifacts, and the Lifesteal should be abour 9-10% for PvP itself. I will double check though!)
My powers for PvP are as follows:
At-Will:
Threatening Rush
Sure Strike
Encounters:
Takedown
Restoring Strike
Frontline Surge
Dailies:
Indomitable Strength
Slam
Passives:
Bravery
Ferocious Reaction
Now comes my feat selection:
Above you will see that I have selected this strictly for PvE in mind, but it obvisouly does well in PvP also as Sentinel IV is good in the scenario.
Heroic Feats:
3/3: Disciple of Strength
3/3: Toughness
3/3: Endless Assault
3/3: Armor Specialization
5/5/: Steely Defense
3/3: Devastating Critical
Paragon Feats:
Instigator:
5/5: Student of the Sword
Destroyer:
5/5: Deep Gash
Sentinel:
5/5: Scale Agility
5/5: Powerful Challenge
5/5: Battle Trample
5/5: Master at Arms
1/1: Sentinel's Aegis
Some notes:
In PvE my rotation revolves around using Threatening Rush to mark a target and then following up with a Wicked Strike rotation or an Encounter Power. This is, obviously, designated to maintain the 30% cumulative damage bonus from having a target Marked w/Powerful Challenge. This can get to 45% more damage if they are CC'd in some way via Trample the Fallen and your encounter abilities or someone on your teams.
It requires a bit of practice to get used too, but the benefits are amazing. You hold aggro so much better then before, thanks to Battle Trample and the Deep Gash bleed effect, particularly in the DPS spec I've been testing. (Special thanks to Grimah here as our joint testing and his suggestions have led directly to this!)
PvPing is also something to note, where you can use Threatening Rush to close the gap on anyone. Sentinel IV is a trainwreck for PUGs that face it. Though a solid premade team can kite/focus fire a Sentinel IV down in a short timeframe with planning/strategy. How do I know this? Because it's happened to me! Just ask FaceControl!
Either way, I am surpremlely happy with where GWFs are currently... Strong in PvE and strong in PvP.
Well done devs!
I'll check when I am on today and edit this post then.
I'd also like to attest to the quality of this build for other readers, as I ran my CW with LEEROY and some of his guildies last night in Valindra's Tower and was blown away by how much damage output he was doing! My CW really had to hustle to keep up with his DPS
I think I had 11.5 million prior to Valindra herself, right?
Nope, 11.2... lol
The build is doing comparable damage to Dakkon Blackblade with his Perfect Terror enchantment post Mod 2 (he is still Swordmaster currently so take that into account!).
It's all about weaving your powers correctly and using Threatening Rush prior to any Encounter Power such as Not So Fast/Indomitable Battle Strike. I still goof it up sometimes, more often then I'd like to admit!
Either way I am extremely happy with the "DPS" Sentinel spec that has come to be. Once again special thanks to Grimah (who I believe had the original idea for using AoW/P.Vorpal, then we ran a muck testing it!) and odd111out for batting ideas off each other. :cool:
Yep, and that was me trailing in second - I couldn't seem to keep up!
I think you have definitely hit a magic spot with this current Sentinel build - high damage output which allows you to hold aggro/tank, and to survive the mobs as well. I'm not as geared as LEEROY with my Sentinel but will take a look at what I can tweak to move in this direction - thanks again!