Simply put: They 'fixed' PvP by gimping PvE, showing a thorough lack of understanding of the real problem: Greater enchants.

So excuse me for being somewhat cynical for thinking Cryptic is leaving the P2W stuff alone in order to get some extra cash and proving yet again that consistent whining and QQing is actually effective.

Calculation needed otherwise this is utter hysterical tripe.

lurkers got nerfed by over 95%
DF gets nerfed by..well, hard to say a number here, but by alot, considering that all bleed was with the lurkers bonus so that damage got basicly nerfed by 60%, even more since youre not in stealth anymore for the bleeds, that brings it to a 75-80% nerf on flurry alone

I'm not happy about this. The only class I have any interest in playing is the TR. If this nerf makes the game unplayable, I may have to quit. I have a good feeling it will, as I barely survive most hard encounters already, and my damage is going to be cut in half.

If you are unable to (or unwilling which would raise the question as to why) do the actual calculations, then just say so and admit it.

So unless you can prove otherwise this is still just hysterical tripe, which if anything, will reduce the chances that any Dev will take the complaints seriously.

On the other hand, actual tests on the PTR with comparisons to current DPS, or detailed calculations might just sway them.

Until either of these happens, all you 'claims' appear to be is hysterical tripe, which is likely to be entirely ignored.

Anything that makes the stupidly tedious dungeons more tedious will ruin this game for me. I hate TR's in PvP they are way OP, but this will ruin PvE as well. Why can they not change things in PvP and PvE seperately like a lot of games do these days. FFXIV can't get here fast enough.

well, i just gave you the numbers, they show that flurry will deal 80% less damage

but its funny that you now need hard facts so you can defend that nerf but befor that all you did was baseless crying and you shat on facts (you as the general you)

I'm not happy about this. The only class I have any interest in playing is the TR. If this nerf makes the game unplayable, I may have to quit. I have a good feeling it will, as I barely survive most hard encounters already, and my damage is going to be cut in half.

LOL, while I was finishing leveling my cleric last night there was a TR in Whispering cavers and I watched her. Groups that would take me 5 minutes to kill this TR was killing in like 2 shots from stealth. I could not even get there to get a tag on the mob in before they were dead. TR's were way OP but they needed to be for dungeon group sake. I think this nerf will make the game unplayable for a lot of people.

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kaiserschmarrnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 390

edited July 2013

To put some perspective into this: In single player you will probably not feel much of this, but if you do lots of T2 endgame dungeons then you will definitely feel the nerf to Lurkers.

During a boss fight Lurkers triggers a lot of times and the extra damage is important to burn the boss down. Especially the bosses where the strategy of "party on adds, rogue on boss" is used, like the Brain boss or Draco. This nerf will make the fights take a good while longer leading to more wipes and less general enjoyment of the game.

Cloud of Steel: This power now has 8 maximum charges, down from 12.

Stealth: At-will powers used from stealth will now partially deplete the Stealth Meter.

Why both? I don't have a problem causing at wills to use stealth. I don't really like losing 4 daggers. But both? What the **** Cryptic? You did the same kind of **** to Clerics too.

Foundry - Fight Club? (nw-dluqbofu7)
- JailBreak (in development)

well, i just gave you the numbers, they show that flurry will deal 80% less damage

but its funny that you now need hard facts so you can defend that nerf but befor that all you did was baseless crying and you shat on facts (you as the general you)

So no calculation then - what a surprise.

I guess any Devs will know just how seriously to take your hysterical reactions, then ...

LOL, while I was finishing leveling my cleric last night there was a TR in Whispering cavers and I watched her. Groups that would take me 5 minutes to kill this TR was killing in like 2 shots from stealth. I could not even get there to get a tag on the mob in before they were dead. TR's were way OP but they needed to be for dungeon group sake. I think this nerf will make the game unplayable for a lot of people.

I've been saying to buff clerics and leave the other classes alone for a long time. When it comes to CW's, TR's, and the fighters, it really is all about skill. Only the ones with the best gear who have great builds are going to be OP. Clerics just never seem to shine as much as they should though. And we know it's because of PVP. If this game had stayed PVE oriented like the tabletop version, clerics would be the most powerful class.

If you are unable to (or unwilling which would raise the question as to why) do the actual calculations, then just say so and admit it.

So unless you can prove otherwise this is still just hysterical tripe, which if anything, will reduce the chances that any Dev will take the complaints seriously.

On the other hand, actual tests on the PTR with comparisons to current DPS, or detailed calculations might just sway them.

Until either of these happens, all you 'claims' appear to be is hysterical tripe, which is likely to be entirely ignored.

Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:

Now:

Every crit is 1000 + 1000*75/100 = 1750 damage.
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits and 5 aren't. 1000*5 + 1750*5(=8750) = 13750.

In LA, you hit for 1600 damage.
Every crit is 1600 + 1600*75/100 (= 1200) = 2800 damage
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1600*5 + 2800*5 = 8000 + 14000 = 22000 (a 60% increase without LA)

On preview shard:

Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:

Every critical hit is: 1000 + 1000*100/100 = 2000.

In LA, hit will hit for 1000 damage.
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1000*5 + 2000*5 = 5000 + 10000 = 15000.

On live, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 22000 damage, a 60% expected increase of your base damage.
On preview, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 15000 damage. A ~10% increase of your base damage.

Does this math please you? TRs have lost a good 50% of their damage counting this nerf only. Let's put togheter the "At-will powers will now deplete stealth" and we are reaching a good 60% DPS LOSS.

The noobs like you will bring this game to destruction. GJ man, way to go. You represent the kind of players i hate in every single multiplayer game. Unwilling to learn, unwilling to develop, unwilling to think. Just. Plain. Crying. and Tardness.

If you are unable to (or unwilling which would raise the question as to why) do the actual calculations, then just say so and admit it.

So unless you can prove otherwise this is still just hysterical tripe, which if anything, will reduce the chances that any Dev will take the complaints seriously.

On the other hand, actual tests on the PTR with comparisons to current DPS, or detailed calculations might just sway them.

Until either of these happens, all you 'claims' appear to be is hysterical tripe, which is likely to be entirely ignored.

Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:

Now:

Every crit is 1000 + 1000*75/100 = 1750 damage.
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits and 5 aren't. 1000*5 + 1750*5(=8750) = 13750.

In LA, you hit for 1600 damage.
Every crit is 1600 + 1600*75/100 (= 1200) = 2800 damage
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1600*5 + 2800*5 = 8000 + 14000 = 22000 (a 60% increase without LA)

On Preview shard:

Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:

In LA, hit will hit for 1000 damage.
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1000*5 + 2000*5 = 5000 + 10000 = 15000.

On live, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 22000 damage, a 60% expected increase of your base damage.
On preview, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 15000 damage. A ~10% increase of your base damage.

TRs have lost a good 50% of their damage counting this nerf only. Let's put togheter the "At-will powers will now deplete stealth" and we are reaching a good 60% DPS LOSS.

Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:

Now:

Every crit is 1000 + 1000*75/100 = 1750 damage.
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits and 5 aren't. 1000*5 + 1750*5(=8750) = 13750.

In LA, you hit for 1600 damage.
Every crit is 1600 + 1600*75/100 (= 1200) = 2800 damage
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1600*5 + 2800*5 = 8000 + 14000 = 22000 (a 60% increase without LA)

On Lamannia:

Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:

Every critical hit is: 1000 + 1000*100/100 = 2000.

In LA, hit will hit for 1000 damage.
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1000*5 + 2000*5 = 5000 + 10000 = 15000.

On live, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 22000 damage, a 60% expected increase of your base damage.
On preview, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 15000 damage. A ~10% increase of your base damage.

Does this math please you? TRs have lost a good 50% of their damage counting this nerf only. Let's put togheter the "At-will powers will now deplete stealth" and we are reaching a good 60% DPS LOSS.

dont try to reason with them, they will be back crying anyway once their class gets nerfed too

thats what flurry will deal less on damage, more depending on your feats/ability scores

Yes, TR had suffered a huge nerf and I do not like it either, but stop giving rubbish numbers, and you still QQ about others having problem reading your post when you could not even convery your thoughts properly.

And it is these and other factors which are important.

There is no reason to believe it is an 80% overall damage nerf, and if you are making such an incredible claim then do a detailed calculation taking into account the other factors, and PROVE it.

How about the PvPers leave. I am a PvEer and I am sick of my classes getting nerfed cause of the whiner PvPers. This game DOES NOT revolve around PvP

Seems a lot more pvpers in this thread.....

But I agree, heavily nerfing a class for pvp issues and having the nerf impact pve as well is bad. However, many people were also complaining about rogues being too strong in pve, which is possibly why the nerf was across the board.

Yes, TR had suffered a huge nerf and I do not like it either, but stop giving rubbish numbers, and you still QQ about others having problem reading your post when you could not even convery your thoughts properly.

There is math in the previous page. Her numbers are hardly rubbish. My numbers are accurate to the 100%. Why did you ignore them?

Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:

Now:

Every crit is 1000 + 1000*75/100 = 1750 damage.
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits and 5 aren't. 1000*5 + 1750*5(=8750) = 13750.

In LA, you hit for 1600 damage.
Every crit is 1600 + 1600*75/100 (= 1200) = 2800 damage
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1600*5 + 2800*5 = 8000 + 14000 = 22000 (a 60% increase without LA)

On preview shard:

Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:

Every critical hit is: 1000 + 1000*100/100 = 2000.

In LA, hit will hit for 1000 damage.
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1000*5 + 2000*5 = 5000 + 10000 = 15000.

On live, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 22000 damage, a 60% expected increase of your base damage.
On preview, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 15000 damage. A ~10% increase of your base damage.

Does this math please you? TRs have lost a good 50% of their damage counting this nerf only. Let's put togheter the "At-will powers will now deplete stealth" and we are reaching a good 60% DPS LOSS.

And it is these and other factors which are important.

There is no reason to believe it is an 80% overall damage nerf, and if you are making such an incredible claim then do a detailed calculation taking into account the other factors, and PROVE it.

Another guy who chooses to ignore the math done a couple of post above his reply. Please, you are amusing.

Great some actual calculations -but unless I am missing something isn't this more like a ~30% reduction, with some other factors to take into account?

BTW no one AFAIK was arguing that this is not a noticeable nerf it was simply that I (and I am pretty sure no-one else) believed the poster who was apparently seriously claiming an 80% nerf.....

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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User

edited July 2013

Well, I guess it's time to stop using my TR in dungeons until I figure out an alternative DPS spec. :sadPVEplayer:

There is math in the previous page. Her numbers are hardly rubbish. My numbers are accurate to the 100%. Why did you ignore them?

At least you have given a good estimate, which I really fear it will be a big nerf, and I applaud your for that. I just did not feedback on your reply yet.

That other poster has just been throwing around numbers without even trying to back up with anything, and literally adding fuel to the fire.

Great some actual calculations -but unless I am missing something isn't this more like a ~30% reduction, with some other factors to take into account?

BTW no one AFAIK was arguing that this is not a noticeable nerf it was simply that I (and I am pretty sure no-one else) believed the poster who was apparently seriously claiming an 80% nerf.....

True that the 80% nerf was over the top.
True is also that, as many of you are claiming, this nerf will not kill the class. It will and by a huge margin. And this was NOT needed just for PVP whiners.

Last but not least (in fact, this is a huge point), my numbers are not counting the "At-will powers will now deplete stealth meter partially". Factoring this in but not having numbers to do actual calculation, I'd believe that we are seriously looking at a 50% DPS LOSS.

And it is these and other factors which are important.

There is no reason to believe it is an 80% overall damage nerf, and if you are making such an incredible claim then do a detailed calculation taking into account the other factors, and PROVE it.

Really, the only way to tell is to go to preview shard and test. Once the results is out, its GG like DC's astral shield.

Really, the only way to tell is to go to preview shard and test. Once the results is out, its GG like DC's astral shield.

There is no need to go to the preview shard when the Release notes have all the numbers you need. My numbers show a good 30%~ DPS Loss already. The only other factor which is important to this thread is "How much Stealth meter do the At-will powers deplete stealth now?". And this will just INCREASE the dps loss that TRs are getting.

There is no other way to see it. No other number to do. No math anymore.

80% of a nerf was over the top true but I believe we are seriously looking at a 50% DPS loss here, killing the whole class.

There is no need to go to the preview shard when the Release notes have all the numbers you need. My numbers show a good 30%~ DPS Loss already. The only other factor which is important to this thread is "How much Stealth meter do the At-will powers deplete stealth now?". And this will just INCREASE the dps loss that TRs are getting.

There is no other way to see it. No other number to do. No math anymore.

80% of a nerf was over the top true but I believe we are seriously looking at a 50% DPS loss here, killing the whole class.

Unfortunately, physical proof > theorycrafting. So until then, all numbers are just theorycrafting and can be ignored by anyone, even they may be theoretically true.

And if the nerf is really unfavorable, there is a (very,very,very small) chance it will not make it to live.

## Comments

0Arc UserSo excuse me for being somewhat cynical for thinking Cryptic is leaving the P2W stuff alone in order to get some extra cash and proving yet again that consistent whining and QQing is actually effective.

470Bounty Hunterlurkers got nerfed by over 95%

DF gets nerfed by..well, hard to say a number here, but by alot, considering that all bleed was with the lurkers bonus so that damage got basicly nerfed by 60%, even more since youre not in stealth anymore for the bleeds, that brings it to a 75-80% nerf on flurry alone

do the math yourself

0Arc User0Arc UserIt doesn't work that way:

YOUare making a claim soYOUhave to prove it.If you are unable to (or unwilling which would raise the question as to why) do the actual calculations, then just say so and admit it.

So unless you can prove otherwise this is still just hysterical tripe, which if anything, will reduce the chances that any Dev will take the complaints seriously.

On the other hand, actual tests on the PTR with comparisons to current DPS, or detailed calculations might just sway them.

Until either of these happens, all you 'claims' appear to be is hysterical tripe, which is likely to be entirely ignored.

67470Bounty Hunterbut its funny that you now need hard facts so you can defend that nerf but befor that all you did was baseless crying and you shat on facts (you as the general you)

67LOL, while I was finishing leveling my cleric last night there was a TR in Whispering cavers and I watched her. Groups that would take me 5 minutes to kill this TR was killing in like 2 shots from stealth. I could not even get there to get a tag on the mob in before they were dead. TR's were way OP but they needed to be for dungeon group sake. I think this nerf will make the game unplayable for a lot of people.

390During a boss fight Lurkers triggers a lot of times and the extra damage is important to burn the boss down. Especially the bosses where the strategy of "party on adds, rogue on boss" is used, like the Brain boss or Draco. This nerf will make the fights take a good while longer leading to more wipes and less general enjoyment of the game.

955Arc UserWhy both? I don't have a problem causing at wills to use stealth. I don't really like losing 4 daggers. But both? What the **** Cryptic? You did the same kind of **** to Clerics too.

Fight Club?(nw-dluqbofu7)-

JailBreak(in development)0Arc UserSo no calculation then - what a surprise.

I guess any Devs will know just how seriously to take your hysterical reactions, then ...

2,270Bounty HunterNope, but a lot of entertainment, as expected.

0Arc UserI've been saying to buff clerics and leave the other classes alone for a long time. When it comes to CW's, TR's, and the fighters, it really is all about skill. Only the ones with the best gear who have great builds are going to be OP. Clerics just never seem to shine as much as they should though. And we know it's because of PVP. If this game had stayed PVE oriented like the tabletop version, clerics would be the most powerful class.

0Arc UserAssuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:

Now:

Every crit is 1000 + 1000*75/100 = 1750 damage.

Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits and 5 aren't. 1000*5 + 1750*5(=8750) = 13750.

In LA, you hit for 1600 damage.

Every crit is 1600 + 1600*75/100 (= 1200) = 2800 damage

Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1600*5 + 2800*5 = 8000 + 14000 = 22000 (a 60% increase without LA)

On preview shard:

Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:

In LA:

1000 damage base, 50% crit chance, 100% crit severity.

Every critical hit is: 1000 + 1000*100/100 = 2000.

In LA, hit will hit for 1000 damage.

Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1000*5 + 2000*5 = 5000 + 10000 = 15000.

On live, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 22000 damage, a 60% expected increase of your base damage.

On preview, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 15000 damage. A ~10% increase of your base damage.

Does this math please you? TRs have lost a good 50% of their damage counting this nerf only. Let's put togheter the "At-will powers will now deplete stealth" and we are reaching a good 60% DPS LOSS.

0Arc UserI agree. +9000

0Arc UserAssuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:

Now:

Every crit is 1000 + 1000*75/100 = 1750 damage.

Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits and 5 aren't. 1000*5 + 1750*5(=8750) = 13750.

In LA, you hit for 1600 damage.

Every crit is 1600 + 1600*75/100 (= 1200) = 2800 damage

Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1600*5 + 2800*5 = 8000 + 14000 = 22000 (a 60% increase without LA)

On Preview shard:

Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:

In LA:

1000 damage base, 50% crit chance, 100% crit severity.

Every critical hit is: 1000 1000*100/100 = 2000.

In LA, hit will hit for 1000 damage.

Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1000*5 + 2000*5 = 5000 + 10000 = 15000.

On live, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 22000 damage, a 60% expected increase of your base damage.

On preview, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 15000 damage. A ~10% increase of your base damage.

TRs have lost a good 50% of their damage counting this nerf only. Let's put togheter the "At-will powers will now deplete stealth" and we are reaching a good 60% DPS LOSS.

470Bounty Hunter60%+15%=75%

thats what flurry will deal less on damage, more depending on your feats/ability scores

470Bounty Hunter268Bounty HunterYes, TR had suffered a huge nerf and I do not like it either, but stop giving rubbish numbers, and you still QQ about others having problem reading your post when you could not even convery your thoughts properly.

470Bounty Hunteri know that whiners have a problem with facts, but thats how it is

0Arc UserAnd it is these and other factors which are important.

There is no reason to believe it is an 80% overall damage nerf, and if you are making such an incredible claim then do a detailed calculation taking into account the other factors, and PROVE it.

479Bounty HunterSeems a lot more pvpers in this thread.....

But I agree, heavily nerfing a class for pvp issues and having the nerf impact pve as well is bad. However, many people were also complaining about rogues being too strong in pve, which is possibly why the nerf was across the board.

0Arc UserThere is math in the previous page. Her numbers are hardly rubbish. My numbers are accurate to the 100%. Why did you ignore them?

0Arc UserAnother guy who chooses to ignore the math done a couple of post above his reply. Please, you are amusing.

0Arc UserGreat some actual calculations -but unless I am missing something isn't this more like a ~30% reduction, with some other factors to take into account?

BTW no one AFAIK was arguing that this is not a noticeable nerf it was simply that I (and I am pretty sure no-one else) believed the poster who was apparently seriously claiming an 80% nerf.....

0Arc User268Bounty HunterAt least you have given a good estimate, which I really fear it will be a big nerf, and I applaud your for that. I just did not feedback on your reply yet.

That other poster has just been throwing around numbers without even trying to back up with anything, and literally adding fuel to the fire.

0Arc UserTrue that the 80% nerf was over the top.

True is also that, as many of you are claiming, this nerf will not kill the class. It will and by a huge margin. And this was NOT needed just for PVP whiners.

Last but not least (in fact, this is a huge point), my numbers are not counting the "At-will powers will now deplete stealth meter partially". Factoring this in but not having numbers to do actual calculation, I'd believe that we are seriously looking at a 50% DPS LOSS.

268Bounty HunterReally, the only way to tell is to go to preview shard and test. Once the results is out, its GG like DC's astral shield.

0Arc UserThere is no need to go to the preview shard when the Release notes have all the numbers you need. My numbers show a good 30%~ DPS Loss already. The only other factor which is important to this thread is "How much Stealth meter do the At-will powers deplete stealth now?". And this will just INCREASE the dps loss that TRs are getting.

There is no other way to see it. No other number to do. No math anymore.

80% of a nerf was over the top true but I believe we are seriously looking at a 50% DPS loss here, killing the whole class.

268Bounty HunterUnfortunately, physical proof > theorycrafting. So until then, all numbers are just theorycrafting and can be ignored by anyone, even they may be theoretically true.

And if the nerf is really unfavorable, there is a (very,very,very small) chance it will not make it to live.