It is so disappointing to see players trying to defend this "ninja looting" behavior. How a player could continue running a dungeon with a group mate, after rolling "need" and depriving that group mate of an item they could use and not feel guilty about it, is baffling and a sad commentary for the world we live in today. It is unsportsmanlike, inconsiderate, selfish, and borderline malicious behavior. What makes it even worse is that these people do not even realize it and go as far as to try and rationalize the behavior.
As zeromatrix01 said though, the game is driven by the AH. I don't think BOP would work here.
I've said (earlier in this thread and in the suggestion thread) that I'd rather them just scrap Need/Greed. My suggestion was to replace it with a standard Loot button, but give a bonus to the roll for classes rolling on their own gear. That way its still a bit random. No one feels good/bad for rolling on gear, because with only one button its obvious what you are suppose to do. But with a bonus it would still be easier for people trying to gear up without the AH to do so.
While its not what I would have hoped the Need button being greyed out though is an easier solution that also works. It does what it was meant to do. "Make it easier for players who want to find their own equipment to gear up without taking items away from the AH."
Yeah im cool with that as well. I like the idea of giving bonus roll points for items that the class can use.
It is so disappointing to see players trying to defend this "ninja looting" behavior. How a player could continue running a dungeon with a group mate, after rolling "need" and depriving that group mate of an item they could use and not feel guilty about it, is baffling and a sad commentary for the world we live in today. It is unsportsmanlike, inconsiderate, selfish, and borderline malicious behavior. What makes it even worse is that these people do not even realize it and go as far as to try and rationalize the behavior.
/just sad
I agree. People who are defending the looting system right now are the ninjas of the game. Just like what zeromatrix01 said, if everyone can roll on NEED then might as well remove the GREED button.
it baffles me that needing on an item still doesnt force bind it, such an easy fix.
How are you supposed to make AD if all the useful items are binded to your character? Not one of you can explain this. If I'm a rogue and a dagger comes up that's worse than the one I have, and there are no other rogues in the group, why shouldn't I be able to roll need and then sell it on AH?
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
Stupid thread, Stupid fix, Who here is intelligent? Think about the situation, how would you best come up with a solution to satisfy all parties? It's so simple. If you roll need the item becomes bound, if you roll greed it's Bind on equip, problems solved. Why isn't this an option? Oh right, everyone is stupid. I'll see myself out.
How are you supposed to make AD if all the useful items are binded to your character? Not one of you can explain this. If I'm a rogue and a dagger comes up that's worse than the one I have, and there are no other rogues in the group, why shouldn't I be able to roll need and then sell it on AH?
Because you really dont need it. This your first MMO? Need option are for equips that you will be USING/EQUIPPING, not because you just want to sell it coz you NEED AD. Greed option are for equips that you want to SELL/TRADE. If you want to make AD then you have to roll GREED in order for you to get the item on BoE. Loot system is broken right now, which is why everyone can practically NEED on something therefore eliminating the value of the GREED option.
This "fix" still leaves the system open for abuse (a character can still roll "need" on an item they are simply planning to sell, so long as that item is usable by their class.)
All that was needed was to make gear "Bind on Pickup" if players chose to roll "need". If you choose greed, and win the roll, you are free to sell the item. If you roll "need", then you are expressing your character's need for the item, so it makes sense that the item would automatically bind to your character.
The second step is to allow players to temporarily trade "BoP" items which have been looted in that dungeon to their group mates. This way, anyone who accidentally rolls Need (misclicks, not paying attention, etc.) has a chance to give that item to a player who had a legitimate need for it, at which point it will become bound to that player.
This is the proper solution to the problem. Unfortunately, Cryptic seems reluctant to make anything Bind on Pickup, perhaps because more items on the auction house means more Zen sales.
-Travail.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Honest and decent people agree to a set of rules beforehand and abide by them. Whether those rules are need-before-greed, all-need-all, or master looter is irrelevant, so long as people can trust each other to hold their end of the bargain. However, if you're running with a PuG and nobody talks, all bets are off. Better to defend yourself than expect strangers to play "nice" - and if that means you're the only one needing, well, you always have the option to give away the goods.
You know what I am doing to remain fair, yet not be tricked by ninja looters in some pugs? I always check the gear of people in my team, especially those playing class same as mine, to see what they truly need. Then if I see some smartass needing on stuff he already has or can't use then I act accordingly.
But until then I always play nice and honest. You can't justify needing on everything most of the time by the fact that somewhere there are some people who don't respect the rules, so you have to roll need on every epic just as a precaution. Then you are just being unfair to people who are fair to you.
The problem would be less if you had informed your team that your philosophy is need on everything and ask them to do the same. But I have never seen a ninja acting like this, they just take advantage of people playing with need before greed ruleset. This is why this behavior is so unethical.
Stupid thread, Stupid fix, Who here is intelligent? Think about the situation, how would you best come up with a solution to satisfy all parties? It's so simple. If you roll need the item becomes bound, if you roll greed it's Bind on equip, problems solved. Why isn't this an option? Oh right, everyone is stupid. I'll see myself out.
Its been explained many times why making stuff BOP isn't an option. But I'm bored so I'll give it a go again...
The game runs on ADs. Its needed (in AD form or as Zen) for everything from mount training to respecs, as well as plenty of other things. As soon as the founder packs disappear there will only be 3 ways to obtain ADs. Farm them, sell Loot to people who farm them, or buy them with zen from people who farm them.
Making to many things BOP hurts the game by alienating people who don't want to farm ADs or buy it with Zen. It would also lessen the effect of the 10% AH cut as an AD sink.
Halgarth's Legacy-NWS-DSTGFZHFR
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asashiroMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Its been explained many times why making stuff BOP isn't an option. But I'm bored so I'll give it a go again...
The game runs on ADs. Its needed (in AD form or as Zen) for everything from mount training to respecs, as well as plenty of other things. As soon as the founder packs disappear there will only be 3 ways to obtain ADs. Farm them, sell Loot to people who farm them, or buy them with zen from people who farm them.
Making to many things BOP hurts the game by alienating people who don't want to farm ADs or buy it with Zen. It would also lessen the effect of the 10% AH cut as an AD sink.
It does no such thing. Or you didn't explain it very well why it would...
Having need set BoP would strongly push people towards greeding things they don't actually need and just want to sell.
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Its been explained many times why making stuff BOP isn't an option. But I'm bored so I'll give it a go again...
No, it hasn't. Maybe you could explain once more why people would roll 'need' and get some silver instead of rolling 'greed' and getting a 20% chance of possibly millions of AD. I don't think you really understand what's being proposed.
If you 'need' an item just to sell it you are still a ninja.
No, it hasn't. Maybe you could explain once more why people would roll 'need' and get some silver instead of rolling 'greed' and getting a 20% chance of possibly millions of AD. I don't think you really understand what's being proposed.
Because gold at higher levels does have some value. And those epics people need on sell for more than a gold each. Players are short sighted and will take the 100% chance at getting gold for themselves. Even if they or even everyone as a whole would suffer. Its the exact same reasons why the playerbase as a whole can't agree to just greed stuff they don't actually need.
If you 'need' an item just to sell it you are still a ninja.
I don't 'need' on much of anything. I mostly play around with the foundry and PvP from time to time. I farm ADs and trade on the AH. I equipped my 60s this way. I haven't done an actual dungeon since the Cloaktower. Though I certainly intend to get into them once the big patch hits. (My favorite character at the moment is a GWF, just didn't seem worth the hassle till then.)
Thinking about all this logically loot that appears in the chest is random. Why is there a need to roll another set of dice on a greed roll if the Prize is all ready randomally assigned? Whats wrong with letting game pick who gets to Use or Sell the item that's randomly in chest don't need to Roll the random dice twice.
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Because gold at higher levels does have some value. And those epics people need on sell for more than a gold each. Players are short sighted and will take the 100% chance at getting gold for themselves. Even if they or even everyone as a whole would suffer. Its the exact same reasons why the playerbase as a whole can't agree to just greed stuff they don't actually need.
If people were that shortsighted to roll need on a bop that would sell for thousands to millions of AD for 1g60s then there's something wrong with them. Hell, you could sell it for way more gold to other players.
Sure making need BoP wouldn't completely solve the ninja problem, but it would at least keep them from making substantial profit at their group's loss.
Well, just make them worth a lot less. Or make them unsellable. I've never played a PnP game where you can go around selling epics anyway.
Possible options of course. But it would have other side affects. For instance lowering the vendoring price of items would make gold more scarce. Increasing its value compared to AD/Zen. Making items bought with gold like injury kits and potions comparatively more expensive. Not saying this would be a bad thing. I don't really know. But the developers would have to consider everything.
As for selling epics in PnP... Most PnP games don't have a global economy with thousands of players trading all day. Really can't be compared (imo of course).
If people were that shortsighted to roll need on a bop that would sell for thousands to millions of AD for 1g60s then there's something wrong with them. Hell, you could sell it for way more gold to other players.
If people could agree on anything, the world wouldn't have half the issues it has. Much less loot problems in a video game. People designing games have to do so for the lowest common denominator.
Halgarth's Legacy-NWS-DSTGFZHFR
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Possible options of course. But it would have other side affects. For instance lowering the vendoring price of items would make gold more scarce.
They could increase the gold you get from trash mobs and bosses. Why are they so poor in the first place?
As for selling epics in PnP... Most PnP games don't have a global economy with thousands of players trading all day. Really can't be compared (imo of course).
Bartering between heroes makes more sense than selling them to a merchant. It's silly when powerful magical items are worth much less than a horse.
Bartering between heroes makes more sense than selling them to a merchant. It's silly when powerful magical items are worth much less than a horse.
Depends on the horse I guess. No, seriously horses are cheap I know. But I admittedly already have issues with the in game mounts. Have you seen how much it costs to upgrade one? Almost 3 million AD to buy the training to get a gold-bought mount to rank 3 - for ONE character. When you can instead buy a rank 3 horse off the Zen shop for less than a million ADs worth of Zen. That would give ALL your characters a horse.
Later. But anyway, I got off topic. And my foundry mission finally uploaded/updated (was waiting to test it). I'm out.
I will happily roll need on epic loots i can need and will sell that on the AH. Smart people do that. No one "needs" a castle never drop for a ridiculous stat upgrade while everyone needs ADs. +500 GS at most with the set aren't worth 3-5M ADs.
I am going to try and reset this thread with a little bit of logic to attempt to explain why this change is being made. It is being made because it became necessary due to the meaning of "Need, Greed, and Pass" being lost on many in our wonderful player base.
There is a reason the developers called it "Need, Greed and Pass." The intended design behind this mechanic is for players that can equip the item, and for whom the item is an upgrade, to roll "need." Those who can not equip the gear, or for whom the gear is not an upgrade, would press "greed" and sell it for coin. And finally "Pass" is for those players who do not need the item, or may not otherwise be able to loot it because they have a full inventory, to fore go a roll altogether.
Had this not been the intended design, the developers would have simply designed "a" button to read "Roll" so that everyone can do what ninja looters are doing now, and simply roll on everything without confusion or "bated breath" anticipation about whether the group has ninja looters or what the next player in your group is going to press.
This is just an obvious "clarification" fix for a mechanic that the developers "assumed" their player base would understand. In other words, they gave their player base too much credit, and we let them down. As a result, they are now forced to "police" the loot mechanic by taking matters into their own hands, thereby forcing an "understanding" upon those who do not understand the meaning of "Need, Greed and Pass."
The Leader of any group that is exploring a dungeon has the option to set how the loot is distributed. With all of the issues with the NGP system, I always set it to "Round Robin". At the end of a dungeon people can trade if they got stuff they want.
Here is why I hate the loot changes.
Here is an example of why this blows and is a stupid idea.
Ancient weapon drop values from Castle Never:
DC drop value 3 million AD
CW drop value 2.5 million AD
GWF drop value 1.25 million AD
GF drop value .5 million AD
TR drop 2.75 million AD
So thanks a lot devs.....as a GF I now have no chance at a valuable item while rogues, clerics, and wizards get their valuable stuff with no competition. What a slap in the face.
We have an auction hall for a reason. This new system will just keep the already under utilized fighters even more broke. Now the clerics can GUARANTEE a 3 million AD item and I don't even get a shot at it. They don't need these items.....they just sell them on the auction hall just like I do.
I make a habit of inspecting my teammates gear in dungeons and 99% of the time they already have better gear equipped then what they are 'needing'.
What it's really about is the astral diamonds....and i'm pretty sure EVERYONE needs those.
Be a Leet D00D, can't think of something smart? Always blame the economy.
This is just an obvious fix for a mechanic that the developers "assumed" their player base would understand. In other words. they gave us too much credit. It is now being fixed.
Moral of the story: Never underestimate "Greed."
Sadly, this is a hangover from a more innocent age. The demographics of the MMO player have shifted, as it went more mass market. It used to be that there was more mileage in "honour amongst geeks", with a little less selfishness and slightly more enlightened attitudes. Also, peer group pressure used to mean something, too.
Now, your fellow players are just as likely to be CODBLOPsing/LoLing roflcoptars, they have a different value system. The game design needs to assume that players are bad actors within any scenario, and regulate accordingly, or things go to hell pretty fast. This is why being a modern MMO designer is actually a surprisingly skilled job, and requires quite a lot of cunning
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This is just an obvious "clarification" fix for a mechanic that the developers "assumed" their player base would understand. In other words, they gave their player base too much credit, and we let them down.
That's like assuming players would not exploit or abuse bugs. Players will always find the most profitable path and use it.
Sadly, this is a hangover from a more innocent age. The demographics of the MMO player have shifted, as it went more mass market. It used to be that there was more mileage in "honour amongst geeks", with a little less selfishness and slightly more enlightened attitudes. Also, peer group pressure used to mean something, too.
There were MUDs 30 years ago that allowed stealing from other players. There were lots of exploiters in Ultima Online. I think it's just a case of rose-colored glasses.
There were MUDs 30 years ago that allowed stealing from other players. There were lots of exploiters in Ultima Online. I think it's just a case of rose-colored glasses.
I imagine there have always, and will always be exceptions. I can't really speak to the past since I, myself, have not been around so long or played that many MMO's. But do we really have to have been around for awhile, or played many MMOs, to understand basic courtesy and respect, or basic redeeming qualities such as being unselfish and considerate of others?
Way I see the new system: if you need 100% guarantee you get the item unless you're running 2 same class then it's 50/50 or 3 same class then it's 33.33% chance. People will always need. At least it cuts down on the competition. So Cryptic made the changes people are requesting and yet still whinning ?
Comments
/just sad
Yeah im cool with that as well. I like the idea of giving bonus roll points for items that the class can use.
I agree. People who are defending the looting system right now are the ninjas of the game. Just like what zeromatrix01 said, if everyone can roll on NEED then might as well remove the GREED button.
How are you supposed to make AD if all the useful items are binded to your character? Not one of you can explain this. If I'm a rogue and a dagger comes up that's worse than the one I have, and there are no other rogues in the group, why shouldn't I be able to roll need and then sell it on AH?
Because you really dont need it. This your first MMO? Need option are for equips that you will be USING/EQUIPPING, not because you just want to sell it coz you NEED AD. Greed option are for equips that you want to SELL/TRADE. If you want to make AD then you have to roll GREED in order for you to get the item on BoE. Loot system is broken right now, which is why everyone can practically NEED on something therefore eliminating the value of the GREED option.
All that was needed was to make gear "Bind on Pickup" if players chose to roll "need". If you choose greed, and win the roll, you are free to sell the item. If you roll "need", then you are expressing your character's need for the item, so it makes sense that the item would automatically bind to your character.
The second step is to allow players to temporarily trade "BoP" items which have been looted in that dungeon to their group mates. This way, anyone who accidentally rolls Need (misclicks, not paying attention, etc.) has a chance to give that item to a player who had a legitimate need for it, at which point it will become bound to that player.
This is the proper solution to the problem. Unfortunately, Cryptic seems reluctant to make anything Bind on Pickup, perhaps because more items on the auction house means more Zen sales.
-Travail.
You know what I am doing to remain fair, yet not be tricked by ninja looters in some pugs? I always check the gear of people in my team, especially those playing class same as mine, to see what they truly need. Then if I see some smartass needing on stuff he already has or can't use then I act accordingly.
But until then I always play nice and honest. You can't justify needing on everything most of the time by the fact that somewhere there are some people who don't respect the rules, so you have to roll need on every epic just as a precaution. Then you are just being unfair to people who are fair to you.
The problem would be less if you had informed your team that your philosophy is need on everything and ask them to do the same. But I have never seen a ninja acting like this, they just take advantage of people playing with need before greed ruleset. This is why this behavior is so unethical.
Its been explained many times why making stuff BOP isn't an option. But I'm bored so I'll give it a go again...
The game runs on ADs. Its needed (in AD form or as Zen) for everything from mount training to respecs, as well as plenty of other things. As soon as the founder packs disappear there will only be 3 ways to obtain ADs. Farm them, sell Loot to people who farm them, or buy them with zen from people who farm them.
Making to many things BOP hurts the game by alienating people who don't want to farm ADs or buy it with Zen. It would also lessen the effect of the 10% AH cut as an AD sink.
It does no such thing. Or you didn't explain it very well why it would...
Having need set BoP would strongly push people towards greeding things they don't actually need and just want to sell.
No, it hasn't. Maybe you could explain once more why people would roll 'need' and get some silver instead of rolling 'greed' and getting a 20% chance of possibly millions of AD. I don't think you really understand what's being proposed.
If you 'need' an item just to sell it you are still a ninja.
Because gold at higher levels does have some value. And those epics people need on sell for more than a gold each. Players are short sighted and will take the 100% chance at getting gold for themselves. Even if they or even everyone as a whole would suffer. Its the exact same reasons why the playerbase as a whole can't agree to just greed stuff they don't actually need.
I don't 'need' on much of anything. I mostly play around with the foundry and PvP from time to time. I farm ADs and trade on the AH. I equipped my 60s this way. I haven't done an actual dungeon since the Cloaktower. Though I certainly intend to get into them once the big patch hits. (My favorite character at the moment is a GWF, just didn't seem worth the hassle till then.)
Well, just make them worth a lot less. Or make them unsellable. I've never played a PnP game where you can go around selling epics anyway.
If people were that shortsighted to roll need on a bop that would sell for thousands to millions of AD for 1g60s then there's something wrong with them. Hell, you could sell it for way more gold to other players.
Sure making need BoP wouldn't completely solve the ninja problem, but it would at least keep them from making substantial profit at their group's loss.
Possible options of course. But it would have other side affects. For instance lowering the vendoring price of items would make gold more scarce. Increasing its value compared to AD/Zen. Making items bought with gold like injury kits and potions comparatively more expensive. Not saying this would be a bad thing. I don't really know. But the developers would have to consider everything.
As for selling epics in PnP... Most PnP games don't have a global economy with thousands of players trading all day. Really can't be compared (imo of course).
If people could agree on anything, the world wouldn't have half the issues it has. Much less loot problems in a video game. People designing games have to do so for the lowest common denominator.
They could increase the gold you get from trash mobs and bosses. Why are they so poor in the first place?
Bartering between heroes makes more sense than selling them to a merchant. It's silly when powerful magical items are worth much less than a horse.
I'm not going to argue with that. It would however require much more work than simply greying out the Need button. Just like the suggestion I made.
Depends on the horse I guess.
Later. But anyway, I got off topic. And my foundry mission finally uploaded/updated (was waiting to test it). I'm out.
There is a reason the developers called it "Need, Greed and Pass." The intended design behind this mechanic is for players that can equip the item, and for whom the item is an upgrade, to roll "need." Those who can not equip the gear, or for whom the gear is not an upgrade, would press "greed" and sell it for coin. And finally "Pass" is for those players who do not need the item, or may not otherwise be able to loot it because they have a full inventory, to fore go a roll altogether.
Had this not been the intended design, the developers would have simply designed "a" button to read "Roll" so that everyone can do what ninja looters are doing now, and simply roll on everything without confusion or "bated breath" anticipation about whether the group has ninja looters or what the next player in your group is going to press.
This is just an obvious "clarification" fix for a mechanic that the developers "assumed" their player base would understand. In other words, they gave their player base too much credit, and we let them down. As a result, they are now forced to "police" the loot mechanic by taking matters into their own hands, thereby forcing an "understanding" upon those who do not understand the meaning of "Need, Greed and Pass."
Moral of the story: Never underestimate "Greed."
Sadly, this is a hangover from a more innocent age. The demographics of the MMO player have shifted, as it went more mass market. It used to be that there was more mileage in "honour amongst geeks", with a little less selfishness and slightly more enlightened attitudes. Also, peer group pressure used to mean something, too.
Now, your fellow players are just as likely to be CODBLOPsing/LoLing roflcoptars, they have a different value system. The game design needs to assume that players are bad actors within any scenario, and regulate accordingly, or things go to hell pretty fast. This is why being a modern MMO designer is actually a surprisingly skilled job, and requires quite a lot of cunning
That's like assuming players would not exploit or abuse bugs. Players will always find the most profitable path and use it.
There were MUDs 30 years ago that allowed stealing from other players. There were lots of exploiters in Ultima Online. I think it's just a case of rose-colored glasses.
I imagine there have always, and will always be exceptions. I can't really speak to the past since I, myself, have not been around so long or played that many MMO's. But do we really have to have been around for awhile, or played many MMOs, to understand basic courtesy and respect, or basic redeeming qualities such as being unselfish and considerate of others?