Sooooo because you need money that means you should be able to roll need on say an ancient dagger over the TR in your group that actually needs it? Entitlement much?
It's unfortunate the Dev's didn't see the merit in the individual loot concept, and opted to just patch the existing system. Oh well, we'll live with it, and as I've said before, at least with the need button greyed out for out-of-class rollers, the in-game bickering over loot will be reduced.
As much as I hate to agree with you about anything, I think you hit the nail right on the head here
It's not a perfect system, but it looks to be an improvement. Progress of a sort, hail Eris.
Until a GWF needs on your item and wins just to troll you.
This. In games where the loot is BOP, the ninjas and gold farmers will roll just to sell it to the vendor, as epics often have a small, but significant relative to other loot, vendor value. In one certain unnamed game, they could disenchant the epic for valuable crafting materials.
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warfluxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So you assume to know everyone that goes into Castle Never is already wearing full ancient and you just want to be greedy and roll need on everything ?
Your tears taste like whine...( pun intended )
It's extremely rare that actually plays out like that and you know it. It really comes down to crybabies that want to find a reason to yell at someone and create drama in the dungeon imo.
You guys are looking at this the wrong way, imo. It won't solve all the problems, nothing will. But it wasn't meant to. This was put in for one obvious reason. So that players that actually need the gear have less competition on their rolls. This change keeps items flowing through the AH (unlike making everything BOP). Which keeps draining AD out of the game with the 10% AH cut. And gives people who don't do dungeons a reason to buy AD with Zen. Keeps the game economy moving.
Judging this based on current class gear costs now is just silly. No way to know what the market will look like a week after all the changes are made. Personally I'd rather get rid of Need/Greed and just have a Loot roll. With a roll bonus when rolling on class gear. That way its still a little bit random. But I bet greying out the Need button was a thousand times easier, faster, and more simple than my suggestion. So I understand and accept why they did it.
Welcome to the world and communities of all serious MMO players. Judging from your comment im guessing your fairly new to MMOs?
Actually been around MMOs for quite some time - stayed with a few for five years or more. I know they're set up like treadmills, but I can't help but laugh at the people who willingly follow the carrot and call themselves "serious" or "hardcore" for doing so (and yes, that's a judgment).
Thing is, quite a few MMOs offer more than just the gear grind - but since that's all there is at max level, that's all anyone considers. Poor blind so-and-so's.
But here's another question for "serious" MMO players who support the loot change. Wouldn't you want gear to be harder to get, so that your bragging rights are that much more credible? Why advocate and support a system that reserves a class-specific item for you? Aren't you buying into the same sort of thing that "hardcore" players disparage "casuals" for, i.e., having the game give you your trophy just for being there? Doesn't that tilt the "risk vs reward" thing a little uncomfortably towards the reward side?
The question is only half-serious (if even that much), but there's that other side of the "entitlement" thing that haelra and others keep bringing up - why do you deserve that one magic drop when everyone in your group contributed to making it drop?
Don't say you NEED it, because I've already argued that you really don't (and others have pointed out that you can get it in other ways if you're willing to bend your rules a little). You don't NEED it any more than anyone else NEEDS the AD to buy the gear that didn't drop for them.
Ok, so I've heard and I think I understand both sides of the argument. My understanding though is that when loot drops in the first place, the item that drops is already a result of a kind of roll. The loot could have been for any of the classes, but say it's TR gear. OK, so the TR's in the party essentially win that roll. The roll amongst party members that ensues is then between the present TRs to see which of them gets the item. It this makes sense, then insisting on NEED rolling on items that are not for your class is just ignoring the result of the drop table roll. If the loot isn't for your class and the corresponding class is present, well then you didn't win. Try again. This seems to be a much more organized system with less room for misinterpretation or abuse than what is currently implemented.
It's unfortunate the Dev's didn't see the merit in the individual loot concept, and opted to just patch the existing system. Oh well, we'll live with it, and as I've said before, at least with the need button greyed out for out-of-class rollers, the in-game bickering over loot will be reduced.
Ok, so I've heard and I think I understand both sides of the argument. My understanding though is that when loot drops in the first place, the item that drops is already a result of a kind of roll. The loot could have been for any of the classes, but say it's TR gear. OK, so the TR's in the party essentially win that roll. The roll amongst party members that ensues is then between the present TRs to see which of them gets the item. It this makes sense, then insisting on NEED rolling on items that are not for your class is just ignoring the result of the drop table roll. If the loot isn't for your class and the corresponding class is present, well then you didn't win. Try again. This seems to be a much more organized system with less room for misinterpretation or abuse than what is currently implemented.
This is the idea. Unfortunately some have chosen to ignore it for their own benefit, at the expense of people who act accordingly to this mechanic.
It could be worse...anyone has played d2? :-) first one to pick it up it's his ! screw you ! you weren't fast enough to loot the boss...so yeah. although I am a ninja looter and always need no matter what (it's that or get screwed by another ninja looter). This system will make me get less kicks from pugs xD.
PS: "Confessions of a Ninja Looter" The Book - Out on Amazon, August 2013.
A self-biography of one of the most infamous ninja looter video games has ever witnessed. Learn the secrets of how to ninja loot by avoiding suspicion. The art of joining guilds and befriending officers only to ninja loot and gquit when you get the best possible loot. Looting, backstabbing friends, shady trades and scams...all this intrigue for the tiny price of <INSERT EPIC NAME>.
But here's another question for "serious" MMO players who support the loot change. Wouldn't you want gear to be harder to get, so that your bragging rights are that much more credible? Why advocate and support a system that reserves a class-specific item for you? Aren't you buying into the same sort of thing that "hardcore" players disparage "casuals" for, i.e., having the game give you your trophy just for being there? Doesn't that tilt the "risk vs reward" thing a little uncomfortably towards the reward side?
The question is only half-serious (if even that much), but there's that other side of the "entitlement" thing that haelra and others keep bringing up - why do you deserve that one magic drop when everyone in your group contributed to making it drop?
Don't say you NEED it, because I've already argued that you really don't (and others have pointed out that you can get it in other ways if you're willing to bend your rules a little). You don't NEED it any more than anyone else NEEDS the AD to buy the gear that didn't drop for them.
Honestly, since your view of MMOs is technically the extreamist of a casual player(IE:using the whole "Its virtual ****, you dont really NEED it") you wont really understand the answer. Its very simple, the person that needs the item contributed just as much as you and will also receive immediate reward since he can equip and use the item right away. Therefore he should have first say on whether or not he would actually use it. If not, up for grabs it goes. In my day when an item you could use as an upgrade dropped you were considered lucky and congratulated for getting it. Also, in games back then there was no need,greed,pass feature. If you wanted to roll on items you had to /random 1 100, but all of the loot was on the corpse able to be looted by anyone just by clicking on it like any other mob.
Edit: Spelling an <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
PS: "Confessions of a Ninja Looter" The Book - Out on Amazon, August 2013.
A self-biography of one of the most infamous ninja looter video games has ever witnessed.
Another, related problem with the loot system is that players don't play classes proportionately to the frequency of loots drops. This is why the auction prices for TR gear tends to be higher than, say, the prices for GF gear. There's fewer GF's who play (and fewer still who don't get insta-kicked) than TR's, and so there's a surplus of loot for GF's that ends up not going to anyone who is classed for it. On the other side, there's so many TR's that not only do they compete more for the gear for them in the Auction; they often end up in parties together and have to roll 'need' against each other. This is yet another point of unfairness of need-before-greed -- it doesn't even split loot equitably over the long run.
Here's an example: Two TR's in a team with one each of other classes will take a 50% chance on getting gear that drops for their class (20% of loot), get a 20% chance at gear for the unrepresented class (20% of loot) and get a zero percent chance of loot for the three other present classes (60%); for a total loot chance of 14%. Those who are the lone person in their class in the party will get none of the TR loot (20%), none of the loot for the other two classes present (40%), all the of loot for their own class (20%) and a 20% chance at the loot for the unrepresented class (20%); for an overall loot chance of 24%. How is that fair? Why should your overall chance at loot change based on whether other people play which classes? I say it should not -- it's fundamentally unfair from the start.
Another, related problem with the loot system is that players don't play classes proportionately to the frequency of loots drops. This is why the auction prices for TR gear tends to be higher than, say, the prices for GF gear. There's fewer GF's who play (and fewer still who don't get insta-kicked) than TR's, and so there's a surplus of loot for GF's that ends up not going to anyone who is classed for it. On the other side, there's so many TR's that not only do they compete more for the gear for them in the Auction; they often end up in parties together and have to roll 'need' against each other. This is yet another point of unfairness of need-before-greed -- it doesn't even split loot equitably over the long run.
Here's an example: Two TR's in a team with one each of other classes will take a 50% chance on getting gear that drops for their class (20% of loot), get a 20% chance at gear for the unrepresented class (20% of loot) and get a zero percent chance of loot for the three other present classes (60%); for a total loot chance of 14%. Those who are the lone person in their class in the party will get none of the TR loot (20%), none of the loot for the other two classes present (40%), all the of loot for their own class (20%) and a 20% chance at the loot for the unrepresented class (20%); for an overall loot chance of 24%. How is that fair? Why should your overall chance at loot change based on whether other people play which classes? I say it should not -- it's fundamentally unfair from the start.
your percentage math means nothing. You allready go into a dungeon with just a chance at loot to complain about rolling against the same class lowering your chances is another sign of greed. And theres no proof to drop rates or how loot is actually determined, thats the point of RNGs.
Honestly, since your view of MMOs is technically the extreamist of a casual player(IE:using the whole "Its virtual ****, you dont really NEED it") you wont really understand the answer. Its very simple, the person that needs the item contributed just as much as you and will also receive immediate reward since he can equip and use the item right away. Therefore he should have first say on whether or not he would actually use it. If not, up for grabs it goes. In my day when an item you could use as an upgrade dropped you were considered lucky and congratulated for getting it. Also, in games back then there was no need,greed,pass feature. If you wanted to roll on items you had to /random 1 100, but all of the loot was on the corpse able to be looted by anyone just by clicking on it like any other mob.
Edit: Spelling an <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
Sounds like someone else that cut their teeth in EQ / that genre of MMO. Imagine that loot system in these games - ninjas everywhere.
The playerbase isn't nearly what it used to be, all you clowns wanting to buy everything on the AH should go play a single player game. Call me elitest I don't care, the point of an MMO is lost when provide shortcuts to all end game gear (yes buying it with money and not earning it by killing the mob is a shortcut) Gamers these days are lazy, period.
Sounds like someone else that cut their teeth in EQ / that genre of MMO. Imagine that loot system in these games - ninjas everywhere.
The playerbase isn't nearly what it used to be, all you clowns wanting to buy everything on the AH should go play a single player game. Call me elitest I don't care, the point of an MMO is lost when provide shortcuts to all end game gear (yes buying it with money and not earning it by killing the mob is a shortcut) Gamers these days are lazy, period.
Absolutely agree here 100%. And yes, EQ was my cherry popper haha. I would give up every game i have to play Vanilla EQ with the same playerbase again. Full open world pvp with item loot ftw. you want hardcore? Go try to find the Old Tallon Zek Times webpage if its still active and read some of the **** on there about how MMOs were 12 years ago or so.
your percentage math means nothing. You allready go into a dungeon with just a chance at loot to complain about rolling against the same class lowering your chances is another sign of greed. And theres no proof to drop rates or how loot is actually determined, thats the point of RNGs.
I would contend with you further, but after the name calling and other ad-hominem attacks, arguing from the conclusion, bandwagoning, and so on; I'm pretty confident at this point that you're immune to any logic. If someone else would like to debate this rationally, I'd be more than happy to continue it.
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oif7greenmedicMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
Absolutely agree here 100%. And yes, EQ was my cherry popper haha. I would give up every game i have to play Vanilla EQ with the same playerbase again. Full open world pvp with item loot ftw. you want hardcore? Go try to find the Old Tallon Zek Times webpage if its still active and read some of the **** on there about how MMOs were 12 years ago or so.
I would contend with you further, but after the name calling and other ad-hominem attacks, arguing from the conclusion, bandwagoning, and so on; I'm pretty confident at this point that you're immune to any logic. If someone else would like to debate this rationally, I'd be more than happy to continue it.
Just remember, this was your first post on this thread.
Sooooo because the TR in a group *might* wear an item, they get to roll for it ahead of everyone else, even though others could get a fair exchange for an item they could actually wear simply by selling it? Entitlement much?
All dropped items are fungible through the market -- if a valuable thing drops, and almost -anyone- could have an upgrade out of it. And it's not like it's going to be bought off the market by someone who can't use it.
I'm still in favor of the change to the need button; but only because it will halt most of the in-game bickering while we're trying to play. I have no illusions about it actually being objectively "fairer".
Put this is the dictionary next to Greed
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oif7greenmedicMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited June 2013
oh and make need rolls BOP. May be a few griefers but it will stop the greedy AH needers.
Honestly, since your view of MMOs is technically the extreamist of a casual player(IE:using the whole "Its virtual ****, you dont really NEED it") you wont really understand the answer. Its very simple, the person that needs the item contributed just as much as you and will also receive immediate reward since he can equip and use the item right away.
So because he can use it right now, he deserves it more? You're right, I don't understand - but I don't think it's because I'm an "extremist casual" (isn't that an oxymoron?). I remember corpse-looting well, for starters... No, the best argument you could have made, I think, is that his equipping of the item could help the group immediately - but unless we're talking exponentially better gear, the difference would hardly be noticeable. Especially considering the group must have been doing well enough to get far enough to get the loot in the first place - and especially twice if the same group had been running the content more than once.
This is the thing - you're talking to a reformed min-maxer. I used to obsess about numbers and efficiency, but I realized some time ago that an extreme degree of optimization is rarely worth the trouble, except maybe as a personal brain exercise. So long as everyone has what they need to get through, so long as people understand the strats and their class (or are willing to learn), and, most importantly, so long as everyone's having a good time, the "best" numbers don't make things significantly better (IME, of course).
Pointing out that the game has a second gearing path (via the auction house) is greed? I get the sense that you're making assumptions without explicitly stating them...
As off-topic as it is, this is an interesting point. Is class stacking a bad thing in itself?
Not necessarily; there are skills that two of a single class can bring that increase the chance of success for everyone. My argument is conditional on success being achieved; so it doesn't really say anything about that directly. And, sadly, there are classes where if one is brought along, everyone's chance for success suffers. Hopefully, the upcoming updates will address some of that, too.
So because he can use it right now, he deserves it more?
No because he can use it right now but because he and only he can use it. You can't use it, you have to sell it in order to get things you may use. This is the very core difference, not clear to some masterminds I'm afraid
Because you can't use it you don't have the ethic right to need it because honest and decent people don't roll need for things they want to sell. Button greed serves this purpose.
Pointing out that the game has a second gearing path (via the auction house) is greed? I get the sense that you're making assumptions without explicitly stating them...
No but pointing someone your grouped with to it because you just out rolled them on an item he would put on right away and you cant just because you can make money on it is.
Comments
This pretty much sums up my feelings.
Until a GWF needs on your item and wins just to troll you.
As much as I hate to agree with you about anything, I think you hit the nail right on the head here
It's not a perfect system, but it looks to be an improvement. Progress of a sort, hail Eris.
Make them BoP but keep the changes there about to is what i meant
This. In games where the loot is BOP, the ninjas and gold farmers will roll just to sell it to the vendor, as epics often have a small, but significant relative to other loot, vendor value. In one certain unnamed game, they could disenchant the epic for valuable crafting materials.
It's extremely rare that actually plays out like that and you know it. It really comes down to crybabies that want to find a reason to yell at someone and create drama in the dungeon imo.
Judging this based on current class gear costs now is just silly. No way to know what the market will look like a week after all the changes are made. Personally I'd rather get rid of Need/Greed and just have a Loot roll. With a roll bonus when rolling on class gear. That way its still a little bit random. But I bet greying out the Need button was a thousand times easier, faster, and more simple than my suggestion. So I understand and accept why they did it.
Thing is, quite a few MMOs offer more than just the gear grind - but since that's all there is at max level, that's all anyone considers. Poor blind so-and-so's.
But here's another question for "serious" MMO players who support the loot change. Wouldn't you want gear to be harder to get, so that your bragging rights are that much more credible? Why advocate and support a system that reserves a class-specific item for you? Aren't you buying into the same sort of thing that "hardcore" players disparage "casuals" for, i.e., having the game give you your trophy just for being there? Doesn't that tilt the "risk vs reward" thing a little uncomfortably towards the reward side?
The question is only half-serious (if even that much), but there's that other side of the "entitlement" thing that haelra and others keep bringing up - why do you deserve that one magic drop when everyone in your group contributed to making it drop?
Don't say you NEED it, because I've already argued that you really don't (and others have pointed out that you can get it in other ways if you're willing to bend your rules a little). You don't NEED it any more than anyone else NEEDS the AD to buy the gear that didn't drop for them.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
Maybe the loot system's button should be in order: wear - sell - pass so their hypocrite brains could grasp the concept of sharing loot with others.
Pity that these trolls come on forums, making excuses and trying to convince others to their pathetic behavior.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
This is the idea. Unfortunately some have chosen to ignore it for their own benefit, at the expense of people who act accordingly to this mechanic.
PS: "Confessions of a Ninja Looter" The Book - Out on Amazon, August 2013.
A self-biography of one of the most infamous ninja looter video games has ever witnessed. Learn the secrets of how to ninja loot by avoiding suspicion. The art of joining guilds and befriending officers only to ninja loot and gquit when you get the best possible loot. Looting, backstabbing friends, shady trades and scams...all this intrigue for the tiny price of <INSERT EPIC NAME>.
Honestly, since your view of MMOs is technically the extreamist of a casual player(IE:using the whole "Its virtual ****, you dont really NEED it") you wont really understand the answer. Its very simple, the person that needs the item contributed just as much as you and will also receive immediate reward since he can equip and use the item right away. Therefore he should have first say on whether or not he would actually use it. If not, up for grabs it goes. In my day when an item you could use as an upgrade dropped you were considered lucky and congratulated for getting it. Also, in games back then there was no need,greed,pass feature. If you wanted to roll on items you had to /random 1 100, but all of the loot was on the corpse able to be looted by anyone just by clicking on it like any other mob.
Edit: Spelling an <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
........I lol'd.
Here's an example: Two TR's in a team with one each of other classes will take a 50% chance on getting gear that drops for their class (20% of loot), get a 20% chance at gear for the unrepresented class (20% of loot) and get a zero percent chance of loot for the three other present classes (60%); for a total loot chance of 14%. Those who are the lone person in their class in the party will get none of the TR loot (20%), none of the loot for the other two classes present (40%), all the of loot for their own class (20%) and a 20% chance at the loot for the unrepresented class (20%); for an overall loot chance of 24%. How is that fair? Why should your overall chance at loot change based on whether other people play which classes? I say it should not -- it's fundamentally unfair from the start.
your percentage math means nothing. You allready go into a dungeon with just a chance at loot to complain about rolling against the same class lowering your chances is another sign of greed. And theres no proof to drop rates or how loot is actually determined, thats the point of RNGs.
Sounds like someone else that cut their teeth in EQ / that genre of MMO. Imagine that loot system in these games - ninjas everywhere.
The playerbase isn't nearly what it used to be, all you clowns wanting to buy everything on the AH should go play a single player game. Call me elitest I don't care, the point of an MMO is lost when provide shortcuts to all end game gear (yes buying it with money and not earning it by killing the mob is a shortcut) Gamers these days are lazy, period.
Absolutely agree here 100%. And yes, EQ was my cherry popper haha. I would give up every game i have to play Vanilla EQ with the same playerbase again. Full open world pvp with item loot ftw. you want hardcore? Go try to find the Old Tallon Zek Times webpage if its still active and read some of the **** on there about how MMOs were 12 years ago or so.
I would contend with you further, but after the name calling and other ad-hominem attacks, arguing from the conclusion, bandwagoning, and so on; I'm pretty confident at this point that you're immune to any logic. If someone else would like to debate this rationally, I'd be more than happy to continue it.
http://tallonzektimes.org/bb/ - man i loved tz. disco ftw~
Well, it might actually stop people from stacking classes because it hurts their chance of getting loot.
Just remember, this was your first post on this thread.
Put this is the dictionary next to Greed
wow! I had no idea it was still going lol thats awesome.
PS: **** Disco! haha. I was in Eternal Darkness, then we merged into exordium, then into Indignation
This is the thing - you're talking to a reformed min-maxer. I used to obsess about numbers and efficiency, but I realized some time ago that an extreme degree of optimization is rarely worth the trouble, except maybe as a personal brain exercise. So long as everyone has what they need to get through, so long as people understand the strats and their class (or are willing to learn), and, most importantly, so long as everyone's having a good time, the "best" numbers don't make things significantly better (IME, of course).
Pointing out that the game has a second gearing path (via the auction house) is greed? I get the sense that you're making assumptions without explicitly stating them...
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
Not necessarily; there are skills that two of a single class can bring that increase the chance of success for everyone. My argument is conditional on success being achieved; so it doesn't really say anything about that directly. And, sadly, there are classes where if one is brought along, everyone's chance for success suffers. Hopefully, the upcoming updates will address some of that, too.
No because he can use it right now but because he and only he can use it. You can't use it, you have to sell it in order to get things you may use. This is the very core difference, not clear to some masterminds I'm afraid
Because you can't use it you don't have the ethic right to need it because honest and decent people don't roll need for things they want to sell. Button greed serves this purpose.
No but pointing someone your grouped with to it because you just out rolled them on an item he would put on right away and you cant just because you can make money on it is.