Here is why I hate the loot changes.
Here is an example of why this blows and is a stupid idea.
Ancient weapon drop values from Castle Never:
DC drop value 3 million AD
CW drop value 2.5 million AD
GWF drop value 1.25 million AD
GF drop value .5 million AD
TR drop 2.75 million AD
So thanks a lot devs.....as a GF I now have no chance at a valuable item while rogues, clerics, and wizards get their valuable stuff with no competition. What a slap in the face.
We have an auction hall for a reason. This new system will just keep the already under utilized fighters even more broke. Now the clerics can GUARANTEE a 3 million AD item and I don't even get a shot at it. They don't need these items.....they just sell them on the auction hall just like I do.
I make a habit of inspecting my teammates gear in dungeons and 99% of the time they already have better gear equipped then what they are 'needing'.
What it's really about is the astral diamonds....and i'm pretty sure EVERYONE needs those.
You sounds like a NINJA to me... or are you just trolling? Probably a ninja because you sound serious
Need before Greed son... learn it live it. You one of the examples of why this is finally getting put in.
No because he can use it right now but because he and only he can use it. You can't use it, you have to sell it in order to get things you may use. This is the very core difference, not clear to some masterminds I'm afraid
Because you can't use it you don't have the ethic right to need it because honest and decent people don't roll need for things they want to sell. Button greed serves this purpose.
QFT
Also, if you "remember corpse looting well" then you should remember how loot went too. If you didnt need it you didnt roll regardless on if you could sell it for lots of money. Its called being respectful which is so very lacking in MMO communities anymore. Im not saying there were no ninja's back then, in fact there may have been more. And it was harder to stop since there were no "so an so looted x" messages. The only way to stop someone from Ninja'ing was to loot the corpse and not get off it until rolling was handled.
Over and over. "My argument is sound because my conclusion is right" "I'm sure I'm right because all my supporters agree!" "Since I'm right, and my opponent disagrees, the only explanation is she's a bad person."
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rhonsusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
This whole argument is a farce. The loot system is botched either way, and the only real solution is the individual loot idea. For now, guess I'm gonna just have to rely on the integrity of my teammates to not be total twats. Good thing a fair number of people I met meet this criteria and dungeons have been fairly smooth thanks to it.
Over and over. "My argument is sound because my conclusion is right" "I'm sure I'm right because all my supporters agree!" "Since I'm right, and my opponent disagrees, the only explanation is she's a bad person."
Your not a bad person because you disagree with me. Your a bad person because you would take from someone something they and only they at the time can use that they helped get because you want money for it.
Your not a bad person because you disagree with me. Your a bad person because you would take from someone something they and only they at the time can use that they helped get because you want money for it.
Both your assessment of the ethics of the situation and your assumptions about my character are wrong.
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teepussiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
OP go get real job, people like you are scourge of gaming, only thinking your own belly. Be happy now 4 other classes cant need roll your equipment. But ofc you play game just for profit so your here crying cause cant make more and more.
Im happy finaly game gives fair shot for upgrades to people that need them without needing to be detective to see if group is full of ninjas. Overall its still luck based what even drops, so essential stuff should go for upgrades and not some greedy fingers. Ofc we might see new trend that every class roll need on all their class gear for profit, but thats 10x less bad than fact earlier every class could just take everything and overall grief mentality some people seem to carry.
Yeah but everyone will just use need if it's their class item and they don't need it, they will press need for the "value" because they can - with no competition. This is why the whole need/greed system while also using a BOE system is completely <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Go with roll/pass and be done with it!
So much this - all this change will do is remove a segment of players from an even chance of getting a valuable item. *If* choosing need made the item bind on pickup, then this would be another story, as they pretty much can't just queue up w/ whatever class is popular and need every item for said class, (just to turn around and sell said items).
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
The OP of this thread and those that agree with it are the shining examples of what is wrong with this generation. Sure they are more open to racial and sexual differences, but they have no sense of community and are all about me me me.
healra for example, sounds like the kind of person on black friday's beating up everyone around them for a pair of boots~
Cancelling out the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that need everything for thier class(greens and all) is not an excuse for letting eeryone roll on every item. You take note of the people who do that **** and you don't run anything with them again.
More to the point if you're always running with a guild, Who the **** cares what classes can roll need on what gear. You simply tell your group "hey i need TR gear for my up and coming TR, can i roll on TR gear. you get an answer, a piece drops you want for the TR, if the TR already in the group doesn't want it, you roll greed, everyone else passes. Communication, learn how to use it and your life becomes much easier. Please take your self entitled moronic ideas out of community video games if you have no idea how to part of a community.
I'm totally a firm believer that this MMO has the worst Community i've been in mostly because of the OP, healra and people who share their thoughts.
As someone who has lost T2.5 DC gear in Castle Never to another class every time I've run it, I fully support the system. I hadn't gotten a single piece of gear from CN until this. All because someone wanted to make a quick buck instead of helping out the DC that kept them healed the entire run.
While I do agree that is should be BoP, I also agree that only the class that can use it can Need it.
No because he can use it right now but because he and only he can use it. You can't use it, you have to sell it in order to get things you may use. This is the very core difference, not clear to some masterminds I'm afraid
What may not be clear to certain other masterminds is this: Without BoP, the item in question would go to someone who can use it; just not necessarily right away. Plus, certain masterminds seem to be missing an inherent unfairness of the need-before-greed etiquette, i.e., that all the other people in the group who aren't of the right class for that one magic drop are screwed over - unless the one who's "supposed" to get the drop is willing to pay out a fair share of the drop's market value to everyone else. But somehow, that's not part of the etiquette, is it?
Because you can't use it you don't have the ethic right to need it because honest and decent people don't roll need for things they want to sell. Button greed serves this purpose.
Honest and decent people agree to a set of rules beforehand and abide by them. Whether those rules are need-before-greed, all-need-all, or master looter is irrelevant, so long as people can trust each other to hold their end of the bargain. However, if you're running with a PuG and nobody talks, all bets are off. Better to defend yourself than expect strangers to play "nice" - and if that means you're the only one needing, well, you always have the option to give away the goods.
But, nope, somehow that doesn't occur to people either, does it?
No but pointing someone your grouped with to it because you just out rolled them on an item he would put on right away and you cant just because you can make money on it is.
Haelra said nothing about telling the teammate to go to the auction house, so I don't know what point you think you're scoring here. It is (or was) a fact that there were two paths to gearing; getting a drop directly, or buying it off the market. The fact that there are two paths means that everyone should be able to gear up more quickly, provided that both paths are used regularly. This should have provided a sense of relief to people who "suffer" at the hands of ninjas, because their overall gear progress was no longer hindered due to being at the mercy of just one path.
I've said it before, if everyone had accepted the idea of rolling "need" as a regular thing, or pretending the "greed" button didn't exist, we all would have been better off - but no, that's too drastic an experiment in social engineering for some masterminds.
Play your way and I'll play my way. My way I haven't to like money but I'll give up the item if someone need it and can use it.No to bloody a** BOP it worst then what going to happen(unless they reason this new system is bad(and it is).
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
As others have mentioned the Auction House is 100% supply and demand driven.
If the number of Fighters Increases the value of the items will in fact increase.
Cryptic doesn't make any changes to the pricing of the AH items manually. It is all player driven.
I absolutely love the idea that choosing need on a item would make it character bound. That being said- there is absolutely no reason that a GWF should be needing on other classes Ancient weapons. Also, Isn't every piece of the GWF's gear cheap- so 500k to a GWF can buy as much gear as 2.5m on a TR? anyways - obviously this doesn't stand for enchantments and runes, but you get my point.
If you are partying with people that need on things they don't need, you need to find better parties. The whole point of a guild to me (if nothing else) is to insure that you only play with people that share your same looting habits.
Play your way and I'll play my way. My way I haven't to like money but I'll give up the item if someone need it and can use it.
What makes you think anyone here wouldn't? I think it would be a mistake to assume that someone is not a kind and charitable person because he or she is arguing they haven't the moral right to force others to adhere to their own personal idea of charity in every instance. The other side is, and I find it quite ironic they don't see for themselves what sort of people that makes them.
Haelra said nothing about telling the teammate to go to the auction house
I've never said what my personal approach to loot in parties is. Some of the 'masterminds' are leaping to conclusions about that all on their own. I have said my preference would be for individual, private loot; I feel it would solve the problems related to the loot system entirely. I have also said I feel the current fix is good because it will halt most of the in-game bickering. In terms of how I roll with parties; I have said elsewhere that I believe I act with high ethical standards as well as both graciousness and charity.
What really astounds me trhough these threads, is that despite attempting to discuss this rationally and logically; offering fundamental principles for discussion, offering examples and analogies for comparison, offering up quantitative arguments about the equability of outcomes and even asking people to stop and really think through the simplistic positions they're staking out in a complex and nuanced ethical problem; that they insist on the name calling and personal attacks. Now -that- is actually telling about the state of the community, not the imaginings of what horrible persons some of us must be because we've thought the issue through and come to different conclusions, and then dare to challenge the rest to think. I have to say, at present it's more charitable than deserved even implying the other side's position is a "conclusion" -- it's a knee-jerk position, no more. If any of the supporters have thought it through, they certainly haven't been willing to offer any of that in any of these threads in recent days. If that side is so obviously right, it ought be easy to put together a logical and fully consistent justification.
This whole argument is a farce. The loot system is botched either way, and the only real solution is the individual loot idea.
Its really not that simple. I just can't see that system ever being implemented into a game that's already in play. It might have been plausible from the start, but not now. Imo of course.
Again, they can't really make everything BOP because of the nature of the game. Items are going to be what people buy with AD from the AH. AD that people with to much money pay Zen for. Zen bought with real money that pays for continued game development.
Without the BOP option, individual loot is a terrible idea. If every player gets their own set of loot then you greatly multiply the amount of items generated. Items eventually flood the AH and become worthless. If they reduce the loot to compensate then players complain because they never even see the loot. Even if the same amount of items are created, no roll means many will feel they have no chance for it. (Even if that's not the case.) Leads to even more unhappy players than we have now.
Halgarth's Legacy-NWS-DSTGFZHFR
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
So let me get it straight, you think your Greed (and that's what it is don't kid yourself) for money should outweigh someones actual need for their own gear? GTFO you ninja looting ****
While I understand the premise of this, it makes it harder to try and weed out the people that just would need on everything. In the old system you can just add them to ignore so you never have to deal with them again, but with this new loot system, you don't know what kind of person they are because they aren't given the opportunity to show it. On a positive note though there will be no accidental rolling need on an item you meant to greed (then have to trade it to that class after because you didn't need it and they did)
Its really not that simple. I just can't see that system ever being implemented into a game that's already in play. It might have been plausible from the start, but not now. Imo of course.
Again, they can't really make everything BOP because of the nature of the game. Items are going to be what people buy with AD from the AH. AD that people with to much money pay Zen for. Zen bought with real money that pays for continued game development.
Without the BOP option, individual loot is a terrible idea. If every player gets their own set of loot then you greatly multiply the amount of items generated. Items eventually flood the AH and become worthless. If they reduce the loot to compensate then players complain because they never even see the loot. Even if the same amount of items are created, no roll means many will feel they have no chance for it. (Even if that's not the case.) Leads to even more unhappy players than we have now.
BOP is not the answer because as you said, the economy is driven by sale of the epic items. BOP will end up as useless item to be vendored to NPC if everyone in the party doesn't actually need that amulet, ring, weapon, etc...
You wanting to be able to roll need on other classes stuff to sell it - is asinine and a solution to nothing.
If an item is needed it should be BoP - if this does not happen people will abuse it, just like they do most of the short sighted "systems" in this game.
NEED means you are going to wear it, should be no issues with that binding to toons, otherwise you greed like everyone else. Broken system in a game full of broken/easily abused systems and transparent cash grabs. Blame the players that keep coming back tossing money at this broken pile.
+1
Definitely agree bout items needed should be BoP. So amusing seeing trolls and ninjas defending the current loot system. OP must have so much fun being a ninja in CN. Check their gear 99% of the time? 1% Yeah right.
BOP is not the answer because as you said, the economy is driven by sale of the epic items. BOP will end up as useless item to be vendored to NPC if everyone in the party doesn't actually need that amulet, ring, weapon, etc...
What he means is if the item is Needed it will be on BoP. If its Greeded then it will be on BoE. So if you want to sell an item then you will be force to greed it. If you gonna roll Need on the item, then either youll wear it or sell for 1 gold on the vendor. Trust me.. Needing a 1m AD item that you wont use is just plain stupid, unless you just wanna screw your party.
Definitely agree bout items needed should be BoP. So amusing seeing trolls and ninjas defending the current loot system. OP must have so much fun being a ninja in CN. Check their gear 99% of the time? 1% Yeah right.
That's fine too if that's how it ends up but realize that once you're all decked out in t2 gear all other items you get are BOP. It would all get vendored and there would be less people joining dungeons. What's the use of doing the dungeons if there's no benefit for it? The spare items that gets sold on the AH is what drives the game economy and Zen/AD exchange.
What he means is if the item is Needed it will be on BoP. If its Greeded then it will be on BoE. So if you want to sell an item then you will be force to greed it. If you gonna roll Need on the item, then either youll wear it or sell for 1 gold on the vendor. Trust me.. Needing a 1m AD item that you wont use is just plain stupid, unless you just wanna screw your party.
So let me get it straight, you think your Greed (and that's what it is don't kid yourself) for money should outweigh someones actual need for their own gear? GTFO you ninja looting ****
ROFL! Yeah, the new loot system should be able to put an end to a few ninjas.
What he means is if the item is Needed it will be on BoP. If its Greeded then it will be on BoE. So if you want to sell an item then you will be force to greed it. If you gonna roll Need on the item, then either youll wear it or sell for 1 gold on the vendor. Trust me.. Needing a 1m AD item that you wont use is just plain stupid, unless you just wanna screw your party.
As zeromatrix01 said though, the game is driven by the AH. I don't think BOP would work here.
I've said (earlier in this thread and in the suggestion thread) that I'd rather them just scrap Need/Greed. My suggestion was to replace it with a standard Loot button, but give a bonus to the roll for classes rolling on their own gear. That way its still a bit random. No one feels good/bad for rolling on gear, because with only one button its obvious what you are suppose to do. But with a bonus it would still be easier for people trying to gear up without the AH to do so.
While its not what I would have hoped the Need button being greyed out though is an easier solution that also works. It does what it was meant to do. "Make it easier for players who want to find their own equipment to gear up without taking items away from the AH."
Run epics with guildies instead of pugs if you want a better chance at gearing up an alt. nuff said.
The assumption that everyone is a member of a guild where they can easily find enough people to run content whenever they want is never enough said no matter how many posters like to pretend it is. The concept behind a dungeon queue system is to make it so that you don't need to pick a guild based on their ability to be used by you to acquire gear.
The assumption that everyone is a member of a guild where they can easily find enough people to run content whenever they want is never enough said no matter how many posters like to pretend it is. The concept behind a dungeon queue system is to make it so that you don't need to pick a guild based on their ability to be used by you to acquire gear.
It doesn't help when the guild you're in, which has over 100 members, actually only has about 3 players on now a days at any given time. Most of the casuals have either quit or are taking a vacation.
Comments
You sounds like a NINJA to me... or are you just trolling? Probably a ninja because you sound serious
Need before Greed son... learn it live it. You one of the examples of why this is finally getting put in.
Also, if you "remember corpse looting well" then you should remember how loot went too. If you didnt need it you didnt roll regardless on if you could sell it for lots of money. Its called being respectful which is so very lacking in MMO communities anymore. Im not saying there were no ninja's back then, in fact there may have been more. And it was harder to stop since there were no "so an so looted x" messages. The only way to stop someone from Ninja'ing was to loot the corpse and not get off it until rolling was handled.
More ad-hominem attacks?
Over and over. "My argument is sound because my conclusion is right" "I'm sure I'm right because all my supporters agree!" "Since I'm right, and my opponent disagrees, the only explanation is she's a bad person."
Your not a bad person because you disagree with me. Your a bad person because you would take from someone something they and only they at the time can use that they helped get because you want money for it.
Both your assessment of the ethics of the situation and your assumptions about my character are wrong.
Im happy finaly game gives fair shot for upgrades to people that need them without needing to be detective to see if group is full of ninjas. Overall its still luck based what even drops, so essential stuff should go for upgrades and not some greedy fingers. Ofc we might see new trend that every class roll need on all their class gear for profit, but thats 10x less bad than fact earlier every class could just take everything and overall grief mentality some people seem to carry.
Your ethics on the situation are that of BP Oil, and therefore flaws your character.
So much this - all this change will do is remove a segment of players from an even chance of getting a valuable item. *If* choosing need made the item bind on pickup, then this would be another story, as they pretty much can't just queue up w/ whatever class is popular and need every item for said class, (just to turn around and sell said items).
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
healra for example, sounds like the kind of person on black friday's beating up everyone around them for a pair of boots~
More to the point if you're always running with a guild, Who the **** cares what classes can roll need on what gear. You simply tell your group "hey i need TR gear for my up and coming TR, can i roll on TR gear. you get an answer, a piece drops you want for the TR, if the TR already in the group doesn't want it, you roll greed, everyone else passes. Communication, learn how to use it and your life becomes much easier. Please take your self entitled moronic ideas out of community video games if you have no idea how to part of a community.
I'm totally a firm believer that this MMO has the worst Community i've been in mostly because of the OP, healra and people who share their thoughts.
While I do agree that is should be BoP, I also agree that only the class that can use it can Need it.
Honest and decent people agree to a set of rules beforehand and abide by them. Whether those rules are need-before-greed, all-need-all, or master looter is irrelevant, so long as people can trust each other to hold their end of the bargain. However, if you're running with a PuG and nobody talks, all bets are off. Better to defend yourself than expect strangers to play "nice" - and if that means you're the only one needing, well, you always have the option to give away the goods.
But, nope, somehow that doesn't occur to people either, does it?
Haelra said nothing about telling the teammate to go to the auction house, so I don't know what point you think you're scoring here. It is (or was) a fact that there were two paths to gearing; getting a drop directly, or buying it off the market. The fact that there are two paths means that everyone should be able to gear up more quickly, provided that both paths are used regularly. This should have provided a sense of relief to people who "suffer" at the hands of ninjas, because their overall gear progress was no longer hindered due to being at the mercy of just one path.
I've said it before, if everyone had accepted the idea of rolling "need" as a regular thing, or pretending the "greed" button didn't exist, we all would have been better off - but no, that's too drastic an experiment in social engineering for some masterminds.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
I can still move.
I can still fight.
I will never give up!
If the number of Fighters Increases the value of the items will in fact increase.
Cryptic doesn't make any changes to the pricing of the AH items manually. It is all player driven.
If you are partying with people that need on things they don't need, you need to find better parties. The whole point of a guild to me (if nothing else) is to insure that you only play with people that share your same looting habits.
I've never said what my personal approach to loot in parties is. Some of the 'masterminds' are leaping to conclusions about that all on their own.
What really astounds me trhough these threads, is that despite attempting to discuss this rationally and logically; offering fundamental principles for discussion, offering examples and analogies for comparison, offering up quantitative arguments about the equability of outcomes and even asking people to stop and really think through the simplistic positions they're staking out in a complex and nuanced ethical problem; that they insist on the name calling and personal attacks. Now -that- is actually telling about the state of the community, not the imaginings of what horrible persons some of us must be because we've thought the issue through and come to different conclusions, and then dare to challenge the rest to think. I have to say, at present it's more charitable than deserved even implying the other side's position is a "conclusion" -- it's a knee-jerk position, no more. If any of the supporters have thought it through, they certainly haven't been willing to offer any of that in any of these threads in recent days. If that side is so obviously right, it ought be easy to put together a logical and fully consistent justification.
Its really not that simple. I just can't see that system ever being implemented into a game that's already in play. It might have been plausible from the start, but not now. Imo of course.
Again, they can't really make everything BOP because of the nature of the game. Items are going to be what people buy with AD from the AH. AD that people with to much money pay Zen for. Zen bought with real money that pays for continued game development.
Without the BOP option, individual loot is a terrible idea. If every player gets their own set of loot then you greatly multiply the amount of items generated. Items eventually flood the AH and become worthless. If they reduce the loot to compensate then players complain because they never even see the loot. Even if the same amount of items are created, no roll means many will feel they have no chance for it. (Even if that's not the case.) Leads to even more unhappy players than we have now.
BOP is not the answer because as you said, the economy is driven by sale of the epic items. BOP will end up as useless item to be vendored to NPC if everyone in the party doesn't actually need that amulet, ring, weapon, etc...
+1
Definitely agree bout items needed should be BoP. So amusing seeing trolls and ninjas defending the current loot system. OP must have so much fun being a ninja in CN. Check their gear 99% of the time? 1% Yeah right.
What he means is if the item is Needed it will be on BoP. If its Greeded then it will be on BoE. So if you want to sell an item then you will be force to greed it. If you gonna roll Need on the item, then either youll wear it or sell for 1 gold on the vendor. Trust me.. Needing a 1m AD item that you wont use is just plain stupid, unless you just wanna screw your party.
That's fine too if that's how it ends up but realize that once you're all decked out in t2 gear all other items you get are BOP. It would all get vendored and there would be less people joining dungeons. What's the use of doing the dungeons if there's no benefit for it? The spare items that gets sold on the AH is what drives the game economy and Zen/AD exchange.
Oh, OK. That makes a lot more sense.
ROFL! Yeah, the new loot system should be able to put an end to a few ninjas.
As zeromatrix01 said though, the game is driven by the AH. I don't think BOP would work here.
I've said (earlier in this thread and in the suggestion thread) that I'd rather them just scrap Need/Greed. My suggestion was to replace it with a standard Loot button, but give a bonus to the roll for classes rolling on their own gear. That way its still a bit random. No one feels good/bad for rolling on gear, because with only one button its obvious what you are suppose to do. But with a bonus it would still be easier for people trying to gear up without the AH to do so.
While its not what I would have hoped the Need button being greyed out though is an easier solution that also works. It does what it was meant to do. "Make it easier for players who want to find their own equipment to gear up without taking items away from the AH."
The assumption that everyone is a member of a guild where they can easily find enough people to run content whenever they want is never enough said no matter how many posters like to pretend it is. The concept behind a dungeon queue system is to make it so that you don't need to pick a guild based on their ability to be used by you to acquire gear.
It doesn't help when the guild you're in, which has over 100 members, actually only has about 3 players on now a days at any given time. Most of the casuals have either quit or are taking a vacation.