I still fail to see why a complete respec of all powers and feats and stats (save starting stats) is any LESS roleplay-destroying than a race chance. It still makes absolutely no sense in any context other than somethingsomethingMAGIC, so why not allow race changes? People who think race changes break roleplay won't use them anyway, so they never need to be concerned by it.
Some random half elf becoming a halfling to be better at PvP is far less immersion-breaking than a constant stream of chat from chinese gold-selling robots, and we've had a ton of those for ages....so if your immersion is still holding up, roleplayers, it'll probably handle racechanges just fine.
(besides, this really isn't a terribly roleplay-centric game anyway. Some foundry quests make a fantastic effort, but the actual game proper? No. "Hail, fine warriors! Might thou aid me? A foul dragon has-Wait, your GS is 6k? Hah, nay good sir, I'll find a better team of heroes. Also, no GWFs plz")
(besides, this really isn't a terribly roleplay-centric game anyway. Some foundry quests make a fantastic effort, but the actual game proper? No. "Hail, fine warriors! Might thou aid me? A foul dragon has-Wait, your GS is 6k? Hah, nay good sir, I'll find a better team of heroes. Also, no GWFs plz")
Lol! that's hilarious =P
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Lol how about the fact that DPS GWF was great when I created one and the game said STR is my main attribute so ok I'll go with that, and then they make DPS GWF total garbage. Now I reroll Sent and have wasted stat point, 3 wasted feats, -2 con, and -3% deflect, b/c if I had any idea they were going to do that I'd have rolled halfling.
Or maybe my 2nd character, DC, game says oh yeah wisdom is your best stat. Oh look at that turns out Str/con/dex are my best stats and I have an 18 roll in wisdom that makes my other stats trash, not to mention I'm a half-elf b/c I didn't know any better.
TR just needs Dex right? So I can go ahead and roll 18 dex right? Wrong. now my str/con/int are trash.
Leveling is not a problem. I leveled a new CW in ~3 days of semi casual play time. But the full gear sets I have on GWF, TR, and DC will take over a month to refarm and I am certainly not going to just rebuy everything I already have.
Why should I put money/effort into these already gimped characters? Why should I put money/effort into a new character when I've already put so much effort into these?
Point is if I could race change I would actually play and gear all of my characters and cryptic would not only get my money for race changes but even more money from gearing all of those characters too.
Don't listen to the Idiots please cryptic, listen to those that will support you financially and add race changes.
This pretty much hits the nail on the head. The game has changed alot since when we all rolled our original (half-elf) characters.
I don't buy the role play aspect. You can change your feats, name, stats and powers but not race. I mean they are selling honey badgers for gods sakes. Everything is bound and power leveling a new toon has me bored just thinking of it.
It was really good if we could respec race/initial stats. I would be the first. I never bought a companion for zen or other stupid things, but will be the first to buy a respec token for race/initial stats. I made wrong choices at the begin and simply can't, now, restart with a new toon 'couse i'm not immortal, I will die and i don't want to waste time rerolling the same character.
So you are against race change but changing your powers, feats, name, appearance, and initial rolls are all fine? Why lol? Why do people want to forbid others from changing their race just because they personally don't want to do it?
This would make money for cryptic and would make a lot of people happy. This won't effect anyone negatively, b/c if you don't believe in race changes then don't buy one. Seems like a really easy choice.
a respec is the equivalent of retraining. that makes perfect sense to me in a D&D setting. name change... simple enough. "start calling me bart... ok?" appearance changes... can be done with magic. an appearance change can also be caused by battle damage. in the realm of D&D, the magic that would make an appearance change possible isn't as rare as an ability to change your race. it's not a matter of personal choice. it's a matter of game dynamics.
i understand why people want this option. they want to trick out their character to be the best it can possibly be and if that means they made a poor choice when they initially created their character... you re-roll and start over. the fact that certain concessions have already been made to import tabletop D&D to an MMO is truly irrelevant. those things were required to move from one format to the other. if a race change was allowed, i think rolling that character back to level 4 would be appropriate... but if you were going to do that, why not just re-roll a new character?
The only blurred line to me on the race change topic is the fact there are bound items and purchases like bank slots which can not be transferred. As such I actually wouldn't mind a race change reincarnation effect, such as RA Salvatore did in The Companions, because bound items and purchases cause complications...
By by that definition of race change you revert to level four again. All quests you completed (save the bag quests) would be nullified and you would be staring at a new character with all of your previous items and accumulated wealth.
Consider it a compromise. Plus it would solve the technical aspect of racial quests and the skeevy power leveling which I mentioned earlier.
I would be fine with that, but I don't see it happening.
For one thing its easier to just change the character's race without all that. They'd have to create that code to take away everything. More chance something would go wrong. It can be done, but it wouldn't be easy. Overall this would increase the time and cost of creating such a feature.
Second, they should want to create features that will be used. No point making something if very few players will ever use it. A race change that reset's a character from scratch probably won't be used as often as the other kind. It'd take much longer before the development time of such a feature would break even and start making money.
Third, its simply not needed. I agree race changes aren't part of D&D/Forgotten Realms lore. But they weren't part of Warcraft lore or Everquest lore either. In those games they are kept OOC. The game treats the character as if they were always that race. As long as Neverwinter doesn't try to force it into being lore, then I don't have an issue with it anymore.
Finally, if bound items was truly your only concern, then there will be much easier ways around this. I am pretty sure that we will eventually get a shared bank. At that point they could introduce a Zen shop item to change all bound items on a character into account bound items. But I'd bet for many its not just about the items.
So you are against race change but changing your powers, feats, name, appearance, and initial rolls are all fine? Why lol? Why do people want to forbid others from changing their race just because they personally don't want to do it?
This would make money for cryptic and would make a lot of people happy. This won't effect anyone negatively, b/c if you don't believe in race changes then don't buy one. Seems like a really easy choice.
Initial stats do make significant difference when it comes to any specific build. Imagine a CW with 18 Dexterity or a GF with 18 Wisdom. $hit happens.
But no race affects a build that good/bad. Prove me wrong.
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cornerboy73Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
I would totally buy a race change token as the race I wanted wasn't available when I made my selection and I had no idea it was even coming.
None of The Companions changed race when they were reborn, nor did they keep any of their gear. Obviously their places of birth changed. Even Regis remained a halfling, he just picked up some Watersoul Genansi passive powers. They kept all of their knowledge however.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited October 2013
If for no other reason, race, gender, and initial ability change tokens would sell, and that's why the devs should add them. There are numerous reasons why in-game these things could happen - polymorph spell, wish spell, some sort of curse, divine boon, or other such magic/ritual reasons...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
None of The Companions changed race when they were reborn, nor did they keep any of their gear. Obviously their places of birth changed. Even Regis remained a halfling, he just picked up some Watersoul Genansi passive powers. They kept all of their knowledge however.
Yes and no.
They started at level one with an advanced learning curb the way I read it. The knowledge of how to fight was there but not the physical ability...they had to relearn how to use their new bodies so it did take years to perfect that.
And being part genasi is a racial change.
Not a major one but a racial change none-the-less.
Would you prefer the other alternative: racial changes never happen in FR novels?
Can we get a clear answer if devs are considering the possibility of adding the initial stat reroll? That's the only thing i am interested in this (and any similar) thread.
What I was trying to point out is that they all incurred a major penalty, even though they did not change race(except Regis in very slight way). If I am playing a Human and decide to become a Halfling, none of my gear would fit, I would have to relearn how to use my new body(as the characters did), my full size mount would become difficult to use. I don't want racial changes to be impossible, I just disagree with the notion of I want to be a different race without any problems.
And yet if you picked up a set of appropriate armour from a dungeon, it would fit you perfectly (if you chose to wear it), and fit anyone else of your class perfectly too (if you chose to sell it). Yet anyone else of your race (but not class) would be utterly unable to wear it.
"AIIEEEE: this skimpy wizard croptop is painful to even hold in my guardian-fighterish manhands! Take it awayTakeitaway!"
Face it, the game is ludicrously gamey already. People can wander off with 20 INT and 12 DEX, come back a second later with 12 INT and 20 DEX and that's just fine? (I can now play the piano like a master but I don't math gud no more).
I think making a race change token available to the zen market would be great.
From my (small amount of) experience, pen and paper rules always depend greatly on the leniency of the DM and what the group accepts. Actually, the Foundry already seem to be a good example of this - there are plenty of immersive, story-driven role-playing maps, and then there are maps where you just grind Purses of Waukeen during a three-day window. They both have their own audiences, and can be fun and entertaining in their own respective ways.
In a way, I feel like not allowing race changes for everyone because it's not okay by your own rules is a bit selfish.
Mind you, I'm not exactly the target audience for race changes. I already made three different Rogues just because I wanted to play different kinds of characters, but most certainly don't have a problem with other people wanting the option.
I think making a race change token available to the zen market would be great.
From my (small amount of) experience, pen and paper rules always depend greatly on the leniency of the DM and what the group accepts. Actually, the Foundry already seem to be a good example of this - there are plenty of immersive, story-driven role-playing maps, and then there are maps where you just grind Purses of Waukeen during a three-day window. They both have their own audiences, and can be fun and entertaining in their own respective ways.
In a way, I feel like not allowing race changes for everyone because it's not okay by your own rules is a bit selfish.
Mind you, I'm not exactly the target audience for race changes. I already made three different Rogues just because I wanted to play different kinds of characters, but most certainly don't have a problem with other people wanting the option.
wouldn't people against this option make up part of the group? plus i don't think it's fair assuming the rest of the community that is not vocal does not have an opinion on this. plus i think that if it was a viable option, you would already have it. like i stated earlier, the stat problems caused by racial differences would not make this a click and boom you're a drow or click and boom you're a tiefling. if you're changing from human to any other race, you would be losing 3 heroic feat points. and if you were any other race changing to human, you would be gaining 3 heroic feat points. so in addition to changing your race, you would need to also re-assign all of your feat points as well as ability stats based on racial bonuses. in addition to that, your level 60 character that has already gone through race specific quests will have to somehow forget all of those and you would have new race specific quests to complete. that's quite a lot of concessions you would be asking a DM to make in a pen and paper d&d game. i don't see how that is any different here.
"Using this race change token will also reset your powers, feats and stat allocations, and you will lose access to all racial-specific questlines".
I'm pretty sure you'd still have a ton of takers. People are not (I suspect) wanting to change race because they really, really want to do tiefling-specific sidequests.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
In a way, I feel like not allowing race changes for everyone because it's not okay by your own rules is a bit selfish.
I love comments like this because they are so true.
It is rather selfish to say that because some people want something added in those who don't agree with it's inclusion should have to suffer with it.
In layman's terms, there's two sides to that coin.
It's just as selfish to say that it should be added because you feel it's possible in the IP as it is for me to say it shouldn't be added because I feel it is unacceptable to add to any D&D IP.
"Using this race change token will also reset your powers, feats and stat allocations, and you will lose access to all racial-specific questlines".
I'm pretty sure you'd still have a ton of takers. People are not (I suspect) wanting to change race because they really, really want to do tiefling-specific sidequests.
i'm not talking about access to race specific quest lines. i'm talking about ones you've already completed and would have to be deleted from your achievements.
if a race change was to incorporate all of that, that's a lot of change for one token.
I guess you could argue that everyone in the game is part of one group, but even inside the game people tend to play in their own circles. There are a great deal of people who don't follow any kind of role-playing rules, and would instantly break any immersion a more serious role-player would wish to have. In fact, even the same person can surely sometimes role-play completely in-character, and sometimes just play for the sake of gaming.
Anyway, in the quoted case, I meant these smaller groups (friends, guild members, current party) rather than the whole community. I think people are allowed to play in their own way, it doesn't take anything away from me just because they have more choices - I'm not being forced to use every feature of the game.
As for the stat problems, as a game programmer myself, I don't think it's an issue. Of course it depends how things are coded, but on the whole it doesn't seem like a very complex problem. Same with the quests (from a technical standpoint at least).
@ambisinisterr
By selfish in this case I mean that people changing their race (unless you personally know a lot of people who want to do it) won't have an effect on you. Like stated before in this thread, you probably wouldn't even know someone did a race change. I'm not entirely sure why I'd call myself selfish for wanting a feature that others want, but I myself have no need for. Even if I personally disliked the whole idea of a race change, I'd still be okay with others having the option, because I think the good it does to others greatly outweighs some small amount of discomfort for me.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2013
As I said a few pages back I don't have any respect for the "it won't have any effect on you bla bla bla ptoohy."
This is an MMO. Furthermore it's D&D. It all has an effect on me.
This thread is no different than asking for lightsabers, blasters and Gungans to be added into the game. To me it doesn't belong and it's very existence would be blasphemous.
If you want to add that in a tabletop setting go for it. You won't find me sitting at your table.
If you want to add that into your NWN co-op server, go for it. I won't be playing on your server.
But this is an MMO. Not an isolated game. What other people do always matters.
The number one reason I hear "it won't effect you bla bla bla" is when somebody is saying cheating should be allowed or that players should be able to get the best gear without earning it in some way because they don't care about the game progression and want to simply skip to maxed characters and gear.
Sorry if this comes off as mean but that argument is completely invalid and really does nothing but make me want to gouge my eyes out every time I see it. You have to bring a better argument to the table mate.
I can understand that lightsabers and blasters would quite literally be rubbed in your face when you're faced with them in the game world, but would you actually see the race change? To me it doesn't seem any different than re-rolling the character with the same name, which is already possible.
Also, it's a bit unfair to compare this to cheating, as with a race change you don't gain or lose any kind of progress.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2013
The "it doesn't effect you" argument is one I find notoriously used by people requesting the ability to cheat or diminish the game in some way. The argument, not the opinion on race changes, is what I don't hear. When you say it doesn't effect me then I cut it down to "bla bla bla."
I have played D&D for well over fifteen years. That's actually the majority of my life.
Lightsabers, gungans and blasters do not belong in D&D. Agreed?
Well race changes on a whim don't belong in D&D in my opinion.
It's that simple. The mere existence of such a feature irks me no differently because this is something I don't feel belongs in D&D.
The simple truth is that it goes against what myself and others feel is appropriate to be added to a D&D game. And while that may not matter to you it does matter to many others and your opinion is not superior to others.
The FACT is that this is an MMO and EVERYTHING you do has an effect on EVERYBODY ELSE.
Period. End of story. You can't argue that.
An MMO is just one giant group. You, me and everybody else make up one large group. And what you do, at all times, effects me in some way even if it's as watered down as a butterfly flapping its wings.
The end all and be all is that the answer to whether this should be added to the game is very personal. There is NO right or wrong answer.
Race Changes don't belong in D&D. It can be done but the way I would work something like that, especially in something like a NWN server, would result in the player responding, "Nevermind I'll just make a new character. It will be easier."
That's what D&D is to me.
If you don't mind race changes, that's fine. In your own group you are free to set whatever rules you want.
That is D&D to you.
Neither is right or wrong. Superior or inferior. Simply a personal view which neither of us will change.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2013
Oh and before it's said...
The follow up to the "it doesn't effect you argument" notoriously used by skeevy players who really don't care about the games they play is...
"If you don't like it don't use it."
That's an equally inadequate argument.
The ability to opt out of content does not justify their addition in any way.
"If you don't like lightsabers in D&D you don't have to use it."
It doesn't work that way.
This argument boils down to the personal views of what is or is not acceptable to add into a D&D IP to begin with. It's personal. Close to heart. The ability to opt out of anything doesn't negate the strong opinions players have that it defiles what D&D is to them.
It's not justification for it's addition. It's not a case for a superior argument.
It's simply grasping for straws to argue that players shouldn't be bothered instead of comprehending that this is a moral compass. It can't be proven or disproven. It will either bother you or it won't and you must respect the fact that it does bother people whether you understand and agree with it or not.
baylen76Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
I would like to see those options available. Base it off a Wish spell (Djinn scroll, lamp, whatever) and it's AD&D enough.
Unlike adding light sabers or space ships race-changing won't mess with my immersion. I'm seeing humans, elves and orcs now and will be be seeing humans, elves and orcs after. I will never know someone race-changed unless I was socializing with them beforehand - and if I did, my experience should have transcended mere avatar looks anyway.
Hence race-changing options wouldn't affect me, but it would positively affect people asking for them for whatever reason. I see no reason to deny them a more positive experience.
Personally I think having ridable pigs is more AD&D-immersion-breaking than race-changing would ever be. And I can deal with the pigs.
I guess my view might be bit more pragmatic rather than, err, ideological.
Many people have stated that they made a mistake with the race of a character and then spent a lot of money on that character. They can't transfer that value to a new character, so it would be nice to fix the original mistake (which usually was made due to a lack of understanding). This alone I think is a good reason to add the feature - it removes undue bitterness due to an unfortunate mistake.
I might have to disagree on the point about whether you can argue about everything everyone does affecting everyone. I think it only affects to the point where it's in any reasonable way observable. Like I said about the lightsabers, that's something very noticeable and even flaunting. A race change is something much more invisible - something you wouldn't notice anyway.
Obviously at some level it's a matter of opinion. I still don't like the idea of restricting other people's actions in this particular case. Actually, it feels a bit strange to me that it would somehow hurt the whole concept of D&D. Surely people are allowed even now to play out race changes in their own campaigns if they want to? Doesn't that, err, defile it just as much, whether they can ACTUALLY do that with a token, by creating a new character, or simply by claiming that they did(even if they didn't)?
@baylen76
Pigs. Oh the pigs. Your comment made me laugh *cough*
Riding pigs.
Riding spiders.
Riding nightmares.
Pet leprechauns following you around.
Pet honey badgers following you around.
Pet ghosts following you around.
Items which fit perfectly any race (from halfling up to halforc) as long as they've got the right career choice.
Items which cannot be worn whatsoever by anyone who doesn't have the right career choice (STEP AWAY FROM TEH DAGGER, FIGHTERBOY: YOUR HANDS REFUSE IT)
The ability to completely (on a whim) retrain your choices throughout your entire career, including how strong, dextrous, hardy, clever, wise or charismatic you are.
The ability to fight while wearing nothing but a pair of pants, yet getting the benefits of a full suit of heavy armour.
The ability to wear a big ol' chunky helmet, but make it (on a whim) entirely invisible.
Magic chests at the end of dungeons that only have stuff in them every few hours. Also, they sometimes have multiple options so you can choose what it contains.
Frikkin' Astral Diamonds as a universal currency.
The list goes on. Any of those things have absolutely no place in D&D (at least not without very, very good explanation), but are entirely accepted in an MMO. This game is FAR, FAR more of a generic MMO than it is a strict D&D game, so the "it goes against the lore" argument is specious at best.
the argument of "i made a mistake when i created this character" combined with "that race wasn't available when i created this character" could also be combined with "that CLASS wasn't available when i created this character..." so where does it end? of course CLASS change would have a far more detrimental effect since all of your gear would be bound and your new class couldn't use any of it.
race changes combined with everything else that is currently changeable in-game is just too far a stretch in a D&D MMO. your monetary investment in your character is irrelevant. it's not like you spent your money with the hope that one day you can change your race. if you did, that's on you. and unfortunate.
another point that i haven't seen in this thread is that a race change could provide an advantage over other players. this definitely affects everyone. and i think it's why the respec token doesn't include allowing you to re-roll your attributes and re-assigning bonuses. there are just some things that are too wide of an arc to travel before this game becomes something else and not a dungeon & dragons game.
I'm sorry, but how could it provide an advantage? Wouldn't you have the same advantage if you had HAPPENED to choose another race on character creation?
Comments
Some random half elf becoming a halfling to be better at PvP is far less immersion-breaking than a constant stream of chat from chinese gold-selling robots, and we've had a ton of those for ages....so if your immersion is still holding up, roleplayers, it'll probably handle racechanges just fine.
(besides, this really isn't a terribly roleplay-centric game anyway. Some foundry quests make a fantastic effort, but the actual game proper? No. "Hail, fine warriors! Might thou aid me? A foul dragon has-Wait, your GS is 6k? Hah, nay good sir, I'll find a better team of heroes. Also, no GWFs plz")
Lol! that's hilarious =P
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
This pretty much hits the nail on the head. The game has changed alot since when we all rolled our original (half-elf) characters.
I don't buy the role play aspect. You can change your feats, name, stats and powers but not race. I mean they are selling honey badgers for gods sakes. Everything is bound and power leveling a new toon has me bored just thinking of it.
a respec is the equivalent of retraining. that makes perfect sense to me in a D&D setting. name change... simple enough. "start calling me bart... ok?" appearance changes... can be done with magic. an appearance change can also be caused by battle damage. in the realm of D&D, the magic that would make an appearance change possible isn't as rare as an ability to change your race. it's not a matter of personal choice. it's a matter of game dynamics.
i understand why people want this option. they want to trick out their character to be the best it can possibly be and if that means they made a poor choice when they initially created their character... you re-roll and start over. the fact that certain concessions have already been made to import tabletop D&D to an MMO is truly irrelevant. those things were required to move from one format to the other. if a race change was allowed, i think rolling that character back to level 4 would be appropriate... but if you were going to do that, why not just re-roll a new character?
I would be fine with that, but I don't see it happening.
For one thing its easier to just change the character's race without all that. They'd have to create that code to take away everything. More chance something would go wrong. It can be done, but it wouldn't be easy. Overall this would increase the time and cost of creating such a feature.
Second, they should want to create features that will be used. No point making something if very few players will ever use it. A race change that reset's a character from scratch probably won't be used as often as the other kind. It'd take much longer before the development time of such a feature would break even and start making money.
Third, its simply not needed. I agree race changes aren't part of D&D/Forgotten Realms lore. But they weren't part of Warcraft lore or Everquest lore either. In those games they are kept OOC. The game treats the character as if they were always that race. As long as Neverwinter doesn't try to force it into being lore, then I don't have an issue with it anymore.
Finally, if bound items was truly your only concern, then there will be much easier ways around this. I am pretty sure that we will eventually get a shared bank. At that point they could introduce a Zen shop item to change all bound items on a character into account bound items. But I'd bet for many its not just about the items.
But no race affects a build that good/bad. Prove me wrong.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Yes and no.
They started at level one with an advanced learning curb the way I read it. The knowledge of how to fight was there but not the physical ability...they had to relearn how to use their new bodies so it did take years to perfect that.
And being part genasi is a racial change.
Not a major one but a racial change none-the-less.
Would you prefer the other alternative: racial changes never happen in FR novels?
"AIIEEEE: this skimpy wizard croptop is painful to even hold in my guardian-fighterish manhands! Take it awayTakeitaway!"
Face it, the game is ludicrously gamey already. People can wander off with 20 INT and 12 DEX, come back a second later with 12 INT and 20 DEX and that's just fine? (I can now play the piano like a master but I don't math gud no more).
From my (small amount of) experience, pen and paper rules always depend greatly on the leniency of the DM and what the group accepts. Actually, the Foundry already seem to be a good example of this - there are plenty of immersive, story-driven role-playing maps, and then there are maps where you just grind Purses of Waukeen during a three-day window. They both have their own audiences, and can be fun and entertaining in their own respective ways.
In a way, I feel like not allowing race changes for everyone because it's not okay by your own rules is a bit selfish.
Mind you, I'm not exactly the target audience for race changes. I already made three different Rogues just because I wanted to play different kinds of characters, but most certainly don't have a problem with other people wanting the option.
wouldn't people against this option make up part of the group? plus i don't think it's fair assuming the rest of the community that is not vocal does not have an opinion on this. plus i think that if it was a viable option, you would already have it. like i stated earlier, the stat problems caused by racial differences would not make this a click and boom you're a drow or click and boom you're a tiefling. if you're changing from human to any other race, you would be losing 3 heroic feat points. and if you were any other race changing to human, you would be gaining 3 heroic feat points. so in addition to changing your race, you would need to also re-assign all of your feat points as well as ability stats based on racial bonuses. in addition to that, your level 60 character that has already gone through race specific quests will have to somehow forget all of those and you would have new race specific quests to complete. that's quite a lot of concessions you would be asking a DM to make in a pen and paper d&d game. i don't see how that is any different here.
I'm pretty sure you'd still have a ton of takers. People are not (I suspect) wanting to change race because they really, really want to do tiefling-specific sidequests.
I love comments like this because they are so true.
It is rather selfish to say that because some people want something added in those who don't agree with it's inclusion should have to suffer with it.
In layman's terms, there's two sides to that coin.
It's just as selfish to say that it should be added because you feel it's possible in the IP as it is for me to say it shouldn't be added because I feel it is unacceptable to add to any D&D IP.
i'm not talking about access to race specific quest lines. i'm talking about ones you've already completed and would have to be deleted from your achievements.
if a race change was to incorporate all of that, that's a lot of change for one token.
Anyway, in the quoted case, I meant these smaller groups (friends, guild members, current party) rather than the whole community. I think people are allowed to play in their own way, it doesn't take anything away from me just because they have more choices - I'm not being forced to use every feature of the game.
As for the stat problems, as a game programmer myself, I don't think it's an issue. Of course it depends how things are coded, but on the whole it doesn't seem like a very complex problem. Same with the quests (from a technical standpoint at least).
@ambisinisterr
By selfish in this case I mean that people changing their race (unless you personally know a lot of people who want to do it) won't have an effect on you. Like stated before in this thread, you probably wouldn't even know someone did a race change. I'm not entirely sure why I'd call myself selfish for wanting a feature that others want, but I myself have no need for. Even if I personally disliked the whole idea of a race change, I'd still be okay with others having the option, because I think the good it does to others greatly outweighs some small amount of discomfort for me.
This is an MMO. Furthermore it's D&D. It all has an effect on me.
This thread is no different than asking for lightsabers, blasters and Gungans to be added into the game. To me it doesn't belong and it's very existence would be blasphemous.
If you want to add that in a tabletop setting go for it. You won't find me sitting at your table.
If you want to add that into your NWN co-op server, go for it. I won't be playing on your server.
But this is an MMO. Not an isolated game. What other people do always matters.
The number one reason I hear "it won't effect you bla bla bla" is when somebody is saying cheating should be allowed or that players should be able to get the best gear without earning it in some way because they don't care about the game progression and want to simply skip to maxed characters and gear.
Sorry if this comes off as mean but that argument is completely invalid and really does nothing but make me want to gouge my eyes out every time I see it. You have to bring a better argument to the table mate.
I can understand that lightsabers and blasters would quite literally be rubbed in your face when you're faced with them in the game world, but would you actually see the race change? To me it doesn't seem any different than re-rolling the character with the same name, which is already possible.
Also, it's a bit unfair to compare this to cheating, as with a race change you don't gain or lose any kind of progress.
I have played D&D for well over fifteen years. That's actually the majority of my life.
Lightsabers, gungans and blasters do not belong in D&D. Agreed?
Well race changes on a whim don't belong in D&D in my opinion.
It's that simple. The mere existence of such a feature irks me no differently because this is something I don't feel belongs in D&D.
The simple truth is that it goes against what myself and others feel is appropriate to be added to a D&D game. And while that may not matter to you it does matter to many others and your opinion is not superior to others.
The FACT is that this is an MMO and EVERYTHING you do has an effect on EVERYBODY ELSE.
Period. End of story. You can't argue that.
An MMO is just one giant group. You, me and everybody else make up one large group. And what you do, at all times, effects me in some way even if it's as watered down as a butterfly flapping its wings.
The end all and be all is that the answer to whether this should be added to the game is very personal. There is NO right or wrong answer.
Race Changes don't belong in D&D. It can be done but the way I would work something like that, especially in something like a NWN server, would result in the player responding, "Nevermind I'll just make a new character. It will be easier."
That's what D&D is to me.
If you don't mind race changes, that's fine. In your own group you are free to set whatever rules you want.
That is D&D to you.
Neither is right or wrong. Superior or inferior. Simply a personal view which neither of us will change.
The follow up to the "it doesn't effect you argument" notoriously used by skeevy players who really don't care about the games they play is...
"If you don't like it don't use it."
That's an equally inadequate argument.
The ability to opt out of content does not justify their addition in any way.
"If you don't like lightsabers in D&D you don't have to use it."
It doesn't work that way.
This argument boils down to the personal views of what is or is not acceptable to add into a D&D IP to begin with. It's personal. Close to heart. The ability to opt out of anything doesn't negate the strong opinions players have that it defiles what D&D is to them.
It's not justification for it's addition. It's not a case for a superior argument.
It's simply grasping for straws to argue that players shouldn't be bothered instead of comprehending that this is a moral compass. It can't be proven or disproven. It will either bother you or it won't and you must respect the fact that it does bother people whether you understand and agree with it or not.
Unlike adding light sabers or space ships race-changing won't mess with my immersion. I'm seeing humans, elves and orcs now and will be be seeing humans, elves and orcs after. I will never know someone race-changed unless I was socializing with them beforehand - and if I did, my experience should have transcended mere avatar looks anyway.
Hence race-changing options wouldn't affect me, but it would positively affect people asking for them for whatever reason. I see no reason to deny them a more positive experience.
Personally I think having ridable pigs is more AD&D-immersion-breaking than race-changing would ever be. And I can deal with the pigs.
Many people have stated that they made a mistake with the race of a character and then spent a lot of money on that character. They can't transfer that value to a new character, so it would be nice to fix the original mistake (which usually was made due to a lack of understanding). This alone I think is a good reason to add the feature - it removes undue bitterness due to an unfortunate mistake.
I might have to disagree on the point about whether you can argue about everything everyone does affecting everyone. I think it only affects to the point where it's in any reasonable way observable. Like I said about the lightsabers, that's something very noticeable and even flaunting. A race change is something much more invisible - something you wouldn't notice anyway.
Obviously at some level it's a matter of opinion. I still don't like the idea of restricting other people's actions in this particular case. Actually, it feels a bit strange to me that it would somehow hurt the whole concept of D&D. Surely people are allowed even now to play out race changes in their own campaigns if they want to? Doesn't that, err, defile it just as much, whether they can ACTUALLY do that with a token, by creating a new character, or simply by claiming that they did(even if they didn't)?
@baylen76
Pigs. Oh the pigs. Your comment made me laugh *cough*
Riding pigs.
Riding spiders.
Riding nightmares.
Pet leprechauns following you around.
Pet honey badgers following you around.
Pet ghosts following you around.
Items which fit perfectly any race (from halfling up to halforc) as long as they've got the right career choice.
Items which cannot be worn whatsoever by anyone who doesn't have the right career choice (STEP AWAY FROM TEH DAGGER, FIGHTERBOY: YOUR HANDS REFUSE IT)
The ability to completely (on a whim) retrain your choices throughout your entire career, including how strong, dextrous, hardy, clever, wise or charismatic you are.
The ability to fight while wearing nothing but a pair of pants, yet getting the benefits of a full suit of heavy armour.
The ability to wear a big ol' chunky helmet, but make it (on a whim) entirely invisible.
Magic chests at the end of dungeons that only have stuff in them every few hours. Also, they sometimes have multiple options so you can choose what it contains.
Frikkin' Astral Diamonds as a universal currency.
The list goes on. Any of those things have absolutely no place in D&D (at least not without very, very good explanation), but are entirely accepted in an MMO. This game is FAR, FAR more of a generic MMO than it is a strict D&D game, so the "it goes against the lore" argument is specious at best.
race changes combined with everything else that is currently changeable in-game is just too far a stretch in a D&D MMO. your monetary investment in your character is irrelevant. it's not like you spent your money with the hope that one day you can change your race. if you did, that's on you. and unfortunate.
another point that i haven't seen in this thread is that a race change could provide an advantage over other players. this definitely affects everyone. and i think it's why the respec token doesn't include allowing you to re-roll your attributes and re-assigning bonuses. there are just some things that are too wide of an arc to travel before this game becomes something else and not a dungeon & dragons game.
All race-change would do is save TIME. And as far as I can tell, exchanging money for time is pretty much the entire F2P model in a nutshell.