Great guide! Thanx a lot. I have a question. BiS daggers atm is the ancient's from CN ? I heard there is an offhand with weapon enchantment slot.. anyone knows about it ? ty
Hey Metzli, could you also come up with a Best In Slot Guide for your rogue build? And of course, where to get the items.
this would be awesome! Apart from that i would really appreciate it if you could do some "norm" builds.
Some kind of low-mid-high-bis builds. Cause right now i'm aiming for you target number but without rly having an idea if i couldn't reach it by far easier if i took different items.
I've heard a rumor that DF bleed's dmg is not influenced by power. Can anyone confirm this? I'm asking cause I'm thinking about getting either swash/MA for PvE and this would make swash more powerful.
I have yet to see anyone prove exactly how the bleed's damage is actually calculated. Based on my best guesses at it so far, I'd say that it is in fact affected by power. To what exact degree....who knows.
As far as a best in slot list goes, it's really simple really. The CN accessories have the highest stat allotments, so they are the best. You can get a blue belt with an offensive slot, which makes that the best. The CN daggers have the highest weapon damage, and a bonus 450 stats, so they are the best (short of whatever bugged main hand that can go in an offhand that was mentioned above).
Depending on how the bleed scales with power, Either the 4 set Master Assassin or Swashbuckling set are the best. And obviously the gemmed shirt and pants are the best. Then use whatever enchants you can afford from there.
A middle ground set really doesn't matter much, because chances are that you are only really gaining power and maybe some recovery going from low/mid to BiS. Getting the 5200 (at most) stats you need to start stacking power probably does not take all that much gear, granted you can get crit / arp on it. As far as T1 sets go, you're best served getting 4 piece shadewalker if you need the armor pen. Otherwise get 2 Shadowwalker, 2 Master duelist's for the 800 total stats bonus.
But again the mid ground set I don't feel is worth really fleshing out because it really depends on what stat you are missing. Also I don't have an expansive list of each different item. Also the main difference with gear given how (relatively) low our caps are is just power stacking.
I think I covered the new stuff since last time I responded.
I have yet to see anyone prove exactly how the bleed's damage is actually calculated. Based on my best guesses at it so far, I'd say that it is in fact affected by power. To what exact degree....who knows.
As far as a best in slot list goes, it's really simple really. The CN accessories have the highest stat allotments, so they are the best. You can get a blue belt with an offensive slot, which makes that the best. The CN daggers have the highest weapon damage, and a bonus 450 stats, so they are the best (short of whatever bugged main hand that can go in an offhand that was mentioned above).
Depending on how the bleed scales with power, Either the 4 set Master Assassin or Swashbuckling set are the best. And obviously the gemmed shirt and pants are the best. Then use whatever enchants you can afford from there.
A middle ground set really doesn't matter much, because chances are that you are only really gaining power and maybe some recovery going from low/mid to BiS. Getting the 5200 (at most) stats you need to start stacking power probably does not take all that much gear, granted you can get crit / arp on it. As far as T1 sets go, you're best served getting 4 piece shadewalker if you need the armor pen. Otherwise get 2 Shadowwalker, 2 Master duelist's for the 800 total stats bonus.
But again the mid ground set I don't feel is worth really fleshing out because it really depends on what stat you are missing. Also I don't have an expansive list of each different item. Also the main difference with gear given how (relatively) low our caps are is just power stacking.
I think I covered the new stuff since last time I responded.
Like I pointed out in the Nevebleed thread, bleed is UNAFFECTED by power.
The formula goes as following:
base damage: Stack count * weapon damage * (roughly 2, depends on your points)
In other words, 10th stack = 10 * weapon damage * 2 * ( crit ) * (critically overrun ) if these happen. This also means you HAVE to be stealthed during 10th stack, the bleed damage from stacks 1-9 do not affect the bleed damage on 10th stack.
Bleed damage is also semi affected by arp. If you do duelist flurry hits WHILE the bleed hits, you get arp counted, if youre not doing that, then it wont be affected by arp. Very weird thing.
How to test this out, take off all the armors buy lvl 4 dagger, smash dummies. You notice that you get 4 damage range on 10th stack. Normal, critically overrun normal, crit and critically overrun crit. Then put back your equipments that increase power by whatever number, do testing again and you get exactly same numbers. Do this with higher level daggers and the numbers are exactly same. You just have to make sure you hit 5 stacks of deadly before 10th stack and youre good to go using the numbers.
To give a good estimation of my numbers
I hit around 2k damage on 10th stack with 5 deadly stack normally
around 2.8k critically overrun normal
around 5k dmg with crit
and around 7.3k damage with crit overrun crit
I hit 2.8k in stealthed ( 20% + 20% extra damage from feats + 25% extra CS from feats too ) In mezils build for some odd reason the 20% extra damage during stealth is not there but instead 20% AP gain from stealth. Parsing the combatlog from spellplague runs, rogues get around 22 dailies worth daily power on the run.
around 4k damage stealth crit overrun normal
around 7.5k damage with crit
and around 10k damage with crit overrun crit.
Then with crit overrun crit + lurkers + stealth + extra damage from coming out of stealth about 23k
This is with half-orc having 24dex, 24str, 14 charisma. 2x thickgristle jagged daggers. gs not even 9k.
In overall with all this information I think this makes PvP set almost best set in the game for rogues.
Also something I would recommend other rogues, if youre taking impossible to catch, I honestly believe its far better opener than wicked strike. You do not want to be interrupted during lurkers and impossible to catch breaks stealth too + gives you invurability for short period. Also something worth noting is, that its almost better to do 2 rounds of duelist flurry to get stacks up to around 7-8 before using lurker. I am honestly not sure if the stack count is affected by critical change tho, because it feels like rogues with higher dex seem to push more stacks on their duelist flurry but this is just assumption from my testing not really fact or there is nothing to back this thought up.
Edit: actually after some more testing I honestly dunno how much more damage i do from flanks except on dummies. It seems that its definitely not 40% on t2 dungeons. For normal attacks that is, the bleed damage is solely based on weapon damage. For duelist flurry hit, it seems i did only about 7% more damage in flanked non crit minimum damage than non-flanked noncrit minimum damage. This might be because of the arp too, not sure.
I do not know if you did any actual math to create this formula, or you just made something that appears to fit the numbers you generated, but either way you said right in the formula that power effects the bleed damage.
Power = Bonus Weapon Damage. Therefore power scales directly into the formula you made for calculating the bleed damage.
I would like to also know where the term "(roughly 2, depends on your points)" comes from. Convenient constants that you have no actual explanation for other than that your data fits are not very great to use.
Also...:
"Bleed damage is also semi affected by arp. If you do duelist flurry hits WHILE the bleed hits, you get arp counted, if youre not doing that, then it wont be affected by arp. Very weird thing."
The fact that you mentioned this basically tells me you aren't correct, or are at least overlooking a major variable. If your formula was correct, there is no reason whatsoever that ARP would affect the damage. Also bleeds are only applied when you do a duelist flurry hit. And only debuffs on the enemy affect the bleed damage after 10 stacks, not ARP.
"I hit 2.8k in stealthed ( 20% + 20% extra damage from feats + 25% extra CS from feats too )"
I don't really understand exactly what you were trying to say, but I can tell you that the "20% bonus CA damage" does not equate to 20% bonus damage. It's a 20% multiplicative bonus to your CA damage bonus. This is more around a 4% dps bonus.
"In overall with all this information I think this makes PvP set almost best set in the game for rogues."
I do not understand this statement at all. Based on everything you just said, the only stat that you should be stacking is crit, since it is the only thing that really affects the bleed damage, which is 80% or so of our dps when it crits. But that is entirely the wrong mindset, since increasing our dps really comes down to buffing the last 20% (not to mention that power DOES affect bleed damage).
I do not know if you did any actual math to create this formula, or you just made something that appears to fit the numbers you generated, but either way you said right in the formula that power effects the bleed damage.
Power = Bonus Weapon Damage. Therefore power scales directly into the formula you made for calculating the bleed damage.
I would like to also know where the term "(roughly 2, depends on your points)" comes from. Convenient constants that you have no actual explanation for other than that your data fits are not very great to use.
Also...:
"Bleed damage is also semi affected by arp. If you do duelist flurry hits WHILE the bleed hits, you get arp counted, if youre not doing that, then it wont be affected by arp. Very weird thing."
The fact that you mentioned this basically tells me you aren't correct, or are at least overlooking a major variable. If your formula was correct, there is no reason whatsoever that ARP would affect the damage. Also bleeds are only applied when you do a duelist flurry hit. And only debuffs on the enemy affect the bleed damage after 10 stacks, not ARP.
"I hit 2.8k in stealthed ( 20% + 20% extra damage from feats + 25% extra CS from feats too )"
I don't really understand exactly what you were trying to say, but I can tell you that the "20% bonus CA damage" does not equate to 20% bonus damage. It's a 20% multiplicative bonus to your CA damage bonus. This is more around a 4% dps bonus.
"In overall with all this information I think this makes PvP set almost best set in the game for rogues."
I do not understand this statement at all. Based on everything you just said, the only stat that you should be stacking is crit, since it is the only thing that really affects the bleed damage, which is 80% or so of our dps when it crits. But that is entirely the wrong mindset, since increasing our dps really comes down to buffing the last 20% (not to mention that power DOES affect bleed damage).
What I said was power does not affect bleed damage. Like I said you can try out taking all your armors and items and still the bleeds damage does not change if you hit full combo. What I did notice tho the feats that I thought giving 20% extra damage from stealth do not do this. In fact you just seem to get roughly 40% extra damage to bleed if you're stealthed, why no idea.
Like I said, if i use lvl 4 dagger that gives 30 damage, I should hit with 1.5k power higher bleeds than without one. But this is not really the case. It hits exactly same damage on 10th stack bleed with 14 power as it does with 1.5k power. The power itself gives more damage than the daggers do, so it should hit at least twice as hard, but sadly it does not, if it was power related it should have boosted the damage by 10 times. Even with lvl 60 daggers 1.5k power should give roughly 10% weapon damage, so the bleeds should be 10% higher damage, but they hit exactly same damages. Does that mean that my characters power is less worthy than others?
As for the fact that you can swap weapon after 6 stacks of bleed, and the damage drops to that weapons damage range of bleed in it obviously proves that the stack count does not affect the bleeds damage other than directly multiplying it by stack count, there is no addition or anything. If there was after hitting 9 stacks of bleed with daggers that does 100th of the damage the damage should be at least 10% lower, more like 90% but it just isn't.
Sure I do admit its not like its an absolutely the best formula, and I got the 2 it is probably bit higher than this maybe closer to 2.1-2.2 or something, by mostly through testing out on lvl 60 purple daggers, and thats about what the number is. Sure I am not 100% sure what that constant value is, but its there to give rough estimation.
As for the bleed damage, it does vary after 10th stack, I have no idea why it does but it does IF you are doing flurry hit when it ticks, it gives more arp during the flurry hit. That's how the damage changes.
As for the number 2 multiplier, well I had arp it didnt change, I had more power and it doesn't change, so I came into conclusion that it is most likely a character stat dependant. Sure for arp it could affect, I cannot say for 100% arp doesn't affect, but you can go try beat lvl 40 mobs with 20% arp, it might actually matter but.... dunno. Because i dont have that high arp I am not absolutely sure if arp affects or not. I just noticed my 6% arp only affected during the flurry hits even when there were 10 stacks on the mob.
Also since you said power affects bleed gimme numbers. I gave mine what I do when I have daggers only and when I have something on each giving similar damage numbers.
What probably throws off people calculating the bleed count is the deadly momentum + critically overrun. If you eliminate this, by only taking count those bleeds that have 5 deadly momentum stacks when 10th stack hits you can get only 4 kinds of numbers if you're stealthed.
You are still packed full of logical and mathematical fallacies.
You're getting 40% extra damage to the bleed while stealthed because you get a 25% CS bonus to your already (10%+Charisma)*20% combat advantage damage. That is around 40%, if not higher.
Where are your logs showing "exactly" the same damage from a level 4 dagger to a level 60 dagger? You can't just say they are exactly the same, because they are not. You need logs. From logs we can calculate actual formulas instead of shoddy guesswork. Obviously the bleed damage scales in a weird, non-intuitive way. Saying based on bad testing methods that power and ARP have no influence on it just sets the whole community back.
There is also the possibility that the bleed damage is based on weapon damage/power and doesn't scale that much, and from the research I already did, it is based on the stacks. The more stacks you have, the more damage it does. You get some unusual effects at 10 stacks, but that is not the same as saying only the 10th stack matters.
The 2.x constant is just a constant to make your numbers fit your formula. That's not how you do math. Also from the multiple skills I have worked out formulas for in this game, there are no flat, hidden constants usually. Therefore it would be pretty odd for them to throw one in at random.
I have tested it many times, and ran actual logs (unlike you seem to be doing) and the bleed damage is constant after 10 stacks except for a few exceptions:
1. The stack falls off.
2. You add a damage resistance/defense reduction debuff to the mob.
ARP would have no effect at a 10 stack as ARP's involvement with the damage (if there is any) has already been accomplished.
I said power effects the bleed because YOUR FORMULA says weapon damage effects the bleed. Power IS weapon damage.
Also your screenshot vs his video is not proof of anything. In your screenshot we cannot tell if that was an overrun critical bleed or not. Nor can we make a similar assumption about his. You can make the claim that power probably doesn't do all that much for the bleed, but you still have done no actual accurate math showing this. 1500 power adds about 60 damage to the spread of the base Duelist's flurry hit. The spread is 200. So it is entirely possible that you could get similar numbers with 1500 power difference, or even the same.
For what it's worth, I've had more consistent success trying to stack as much buffs as possible for the 10th stack only, than doing it "organically".
Based on the many many times I've tried to stack, I'd say that there's more significance to the 10th stack than just crit/overrun than not.
Your damage will pretty much be crippled if you don't reach max stack while lurkers is active.
You are still packed full of logical and mathematical fallacies.
You're getting 40% extra damage to the bleed while stealthed because you get a 25% CS bonus to your already (10%+Charisma)*20% combat advantage damage. That is around 40%, if not higher.
Where are your logs showing "exactly" the same damage from a level 4 dagger to a level 60 dagger? You can't just say they are exactly the same, because they are not. You need logs. From logs we can calculate actual formulas instead of shoddy guesswork. Obviously the bleed damage scales in a weird, non-intuitive way. Saying based on bad testing methods that power and ARP have no influence on it just sets the whole community back.
There is also the possibility that the bleed damage is based on weapon damage/power and doesn't scale that much, and from the research I already did, it is based on the stacks. The more stacks you have, the more damage it does. You get some unusual effects at 10 stacks, but that is not the same as saying only the 10th stack matters.
The 2.x constant is just a constant to make your numbers fit your formula. That's not how you do math. Also from the multiple skills I have worked out formulas for in this game, there are no flat, hidden constants usually. Therefore it would be pretty odd for them to throw one in at random.
I have tested it many times, and ran actual logs (unlike you seem to be doing) and the bleed damage is constant after 10 stacks except for a few exceptions:
1. The stack falls off.
2. You add a damage resistance/defense reduction debuff to the mob.
ARP would have no effect at a 10 stack as ARP's involvement with the damage (if there is any) has already been accomplished.
I said power effects the bleed because YOUR FORMULA says weapon damage effects the bleed. Power IS weapon damage.
Also your screenshot vs his video is not proof of anything. In your screenshot we cannot tell if that was an overrun critical bleed or not. Nor can we make a similar assumption about his. You can make the claim that power probably doesn't do all that much for the bleed, but you still have done no actual accurate math showing this. 1500 power adds about 60 damage to the spread of the base Duelist's flurry hit. The spread is 200. So it is entirely possible that you could get similar numbers with 1500 power difference, or even the same.
Just to point out, i did stacks 1-7 without stealth just randomly slashing the doll. Also from that video you can see that it is critically overrun crit, why? Cos if you look at the damages on duelist flurry hits before the bleed stack goes in, they are all same crit damage, 4.5k. If you look bit more up you see 3k critical hit on duelist flurry hit. Also between these, there is absolutely no deadly stacks increased, because even that is shown on the combatlog of that video. Now if youve actually done any testing as you said, you can agree that the bleed damage is dependant on the hit that activates the stack, meaning if the duelist flurry hit just before the bleed is critically overrun crit = bleed will be critically overrun crit.
Also I am guaranteed that I can do the same with hitting lvl 4 daggers up to 9th stack, then swapping and going stealth -> doing encounter -> lurkers -> stealth and hitting 10th stack bleed if it happens to be critically overrun bleed.
But how bout you test it out yourself, hit 10th stack bleed with 5 deadly stacks without armor on, and with armor on and tell me how much damage difference you can make. Also make sure it is both times critically overrun crit bleed. Then you should continue proving that im wrong. Taking screenshots of the damages in both cases. If I am wrong then sure I will admit it.
So what youre saying power scaled badly.... so 1.5k power on lvl 4 dagger that gives 14-18 damage and gives 0 damage difference means power actually affects. When the power itself should give almost 3 times the damage compared to the dagger.
Now why i keep insiting on lvl 4 daggers is, because the bleed damage that comes in stacks is almost linear.
So to back on bussiness, this time I did stacks 1-5 with lvl 4 dagger (notice only using 1 dagger) 6-10 I swapped during flurry, checked that I had 5 stacks on deadly and had lurkers on. http://i.imgur.com/Rhw4gDC.jpg
Weapon swap between stacks: The first bleed pic in this post
Maybe I wrote the arp thing unclearly, but this is what I tested. I used low level daggers and went on killing mobs. I made flurry hits so that the bleed went in, checked the damage of it during the flurry and out of flurry. The true damage remains the same in both cases but outside duelist flurry hits, the mobs resistance was higher on same bleed stack than during the duelist flurry hits. This seems to be the case with any bleed stack count.
I tested the flurry hits on several mobs, and everytime while I was doing duelist flurry 3rd attack = duelist flurry hits, the bleed had more arp on its hit if it ticked while i was doing it. It actually doesn't matter how many stacks are on the mob just as long as you are hitting the mob with duelist flurry hit while the bleed is ticking. After the duelist flurry hit stops, the mobs gain more armor. Now since I didn't get to test this in a dungeon, I cannot know if it affects mobs in a dungeon, but at least that seems to be the case of the couple of different mobs I tested on. I had to use low level daggers so that the mobs didn't die during the flurry but the mobs I tested this on are in mount hotenow.
I have yet to see anyone prove exactly how the bleed's damage is actually calculated. Based on my best guesses at it so far, I'd say that it is in fact affected by power. To what exact degree....who knows.
As far as a best in slot list goes, it's really simple really. The CN accessories have the highest stat allotments, so they are the best. You can get a blue belt with an offensive slot, which makes that the best. The CN daggers have the highest weapon damage, and a bonus 450 stats, so they are the best (short of whatever bugged main hand that can go in an offhand that was mentioned above).
Depending on how the bleed scales with power, Either the 4 set Master Assassin or Swashbuckling set are the best. And obviously the gemmed shirt and pants are the best. Then use whatever enchants you can afford from there.
A middle ground set really doesn't matter much, because chances are that you are only really gaining power and maybe some recovery going from low/mid to BiS. Getting the 5200 (at most) stats you need to start stacking power probably does not take all that much gear, granted you can get crit / arp on it. As far as T1 sets go, you're best served getting 4 piece shadewalker if you need the armor pen. Otherwise get 2 Shadowwalker, 2 Master duelist's for the 800 total stats bonus.
But again the mid ground set I don't feel is worth really fleshing out because it really depends on what stat you are missing. Also I don't have an expansive list of each different item. Also the main difference with gear given how (relatively) low our caps are is just power stacking.
I think I covered the new stuff since last time I responded.
In your other thread, you mentioned (correct me if I'm wrong) that the order of stats to prioritize would be Arpen (2222) > Crit (2000) > Rec (not too sure what are the numbers) > All the rest into powers. But the Swashbuckling Set being the BIS doesn't add much Arpen. In that case, how can we stack Arpen to 2222? Am I missing out on something here?
You can get armor pen on pretty much every other piece of gear, or enchant it. A BIS set is assuming you have a stat augmentation pet and at least some level 5 enchantments to put on items. Level 5 enchants are 120 ARP each I believe, so that's a decent chunk of it. You will probably get the crit to at least 2000 whether you want to or not.
@Kurahavi Until I feel like doing more testing myself I will take your word for it on the power scaling. As far as the ARP issue goes, if what you saw on mount hotenow is true, it would indicate that bleed damage is calculated in a subprocess that accounts for resistance, then again applied with debuffs added, which is weird.
I know that when you do the duelist's flurry hits they reapply the bleed, and hasten the tick timer, but they shouldn't change the damage done if it's already a 10 stack unless you add a debuff to the mob. But I also have done most of my testing on dummies which have no damage resistance, so it could be possible that some weird stuff is going on. If it is indeed using a subprocess to calculate resistances before remultiplying by the negative resistance then this would make sense. However it makes no sense whatsoever for them to calculate the bleed this way.
Also apologies if I came off a bit hostile on this topic, you just made some very out there (IE against common wisdom) statements without your math/logs to back them up, so was a bit apprehensive to put any real stock in them.
@Kurahavi Until I feel like doing more testing myself I will take your word for it on the power scaling. As far as the ARP issue goes, if what you saw on mount hotenow is true, it would indicate that bleed damage is calculated in a subprocess that accounts for resistance, then again applied with debuffs added, which is weird.
I know that when you do the duelist's flurry hits they reapply the bleed, and hasten the tick timer, but they shouldn't change the damage done if it's already a 10 stack unless you add a debuff to the mob. But I also have done most of my testing on dummies which have no damage resistance, so it could be possible that some weird stuff is going on. If it is indeed using a subprocess to calculate resistances before remultiplying by the negative resistance then this would make sense. However it makes no sense whatsoever for them to calculate the bleed this way.
Also apologies if I came off a bit hostile on this topic, you just made some very out there (IE against common wisdom) statements without your math/logs to back them up, so was a bit apprehensive to put any real stock in them.
Honestly I thought my Neverbleed was broken when I noticed the resistance going down on bleed while I was doing duelist flurry hits. I confirmed that the game shows different numbers during the duelist flurry by watching the damage floaters going up. The only explanation I could think of is, that the duelist flurry hit itself is bugged and considered a debuff rather than an attack. If this is the case it should reduce armor from all damage sources, which on the otherhand seems very unlikely (haven't tested, since it would require 2 people). So I do not have any kind of idea what could be the cause of this. Actually with more thoughts this could possible be tested with path of blades to see if its actually affecting other skills or just for some reason the bleed.
Now that the patch is done, I went to do some testings, and I noticed that the arp does affect other stuffs too. I took an excel sheet and counted arp for every attack, also note that game says that I have 3.5% arp, but the armor if I count correct seems to be reduced by ~3.615%.
13:06:07:19:14:47.9::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical 127.07 145.008 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:48.4::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical 84.6952 96.6516 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:48.9::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical 84.8483 96.8264 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:49.4::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical 87.052 99.3411 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:49.7::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Pn.Ejdc0m1 Physical 185.621 211.825 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:49.9::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical 85.7196 97.8207 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:50.4::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical 84.4358 96.3556 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:50.9::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical 84.9974 96.9965 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:51.5::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical 85.6144 97.7007 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:52.0::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical 83.69 95.5045 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:52.2::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Shadow Strike _____ Pn.L2gdc8 Physical 149.623 170.746 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:52.5::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical 87.9697 100.388 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:53.0::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical F 100.671 114.883 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:53.1::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Pn.Ejdc0m1 Physical F 225.398 257.217 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:53.5::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical F 99.7723 113.857 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:54.0::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical F 99.5656 113.621 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:54.1::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Pn.Ejdc0m1 Physical F 220.702 251.859 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:54.5::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical F 98.9303 112.896 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:55.0::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Hit Pn.P7xsed1 Physical C|F 150.996 165.46 8.74
13:06:07:19:14:55.0::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical F 105.141 115.212 8.74
13:06:07:19:14:55.2::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Hit Pn.P7xsed1 Physical C|F 197.672 225.578 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:55.3::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Bleed Pn.Hvtnc3 Physical C|F 35.0938 40.048 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:55.4::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Hit Pn.P7xsed1 Physical C|F 200.139 228.393 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:55.5::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical F 134.3 153.259 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:55.6::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Hit Pn.P7xsed1 Physical C|F 196.872 224.664 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:55.8::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Hit Pn.P7xsed1 Physical C|F 209.843 239.467 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:55.9::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Bleed Pn.Hvtnc3 Physical C|F 75.4546 86.1065 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:56.1::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical F 150.239 164.63 8.74
13:06:07:19:14:56.1::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Hit Pn.P7xsed1 Physical F 104.944 114.996 8.74
13:06:07:19:14:56.2::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Bleed Pn.Hvtnc3 Physical F 53.9463 61.562 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:56.3::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Hit Pn.P7xsed1 Physical C|F 153.739 175.442 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:56.4::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Bleed Pn.Hvtnc3 Physical C|F 92.8282 105.933 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:56.5::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Hit Pn.P7xsed1 Physical C 190.138 216.98 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:56.6::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical 119.075 135.885 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:56.7::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Hit Pn.P7xsed1 Physical 84.0857 95.9562 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:57.1::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Path of the Blade Pn.Mxgeka Physical 89.4712 102.102 12.37
13:06:07:19:14:57.3::K-60 Ashen Miner-56 C[12354 Fire_Zombie_Ashen_Miner] Duelist's Flurry Bleed Pn.Hvtnc3 Physical C|F|Kill 88.9836 105.933 16.00
So what looks like happening is, that armor is reduced twice on hits that are happening the same time. So I guess this is actually more of a bug than a feature of duelist flurry and bleed.
As for what comes to the "being offensive", I really think that you did point out a lot of things that my "formula" is definitely lacking. First of all it is completely wrong like you said, I forgot to put divide by 10 on it. There is a mysterious *2 on it, which could very well have something to do with stuffs. The base damage to the bleed is still very unclear not to mention why does the damage on 10th stack increase by almost double of flanked hits compared to other skills. What I mean is, on other skills flanks only increase like 15-18% damage but 10th stack bleed the base damage is increased over 30%, unless..... this has something to do with the same bug as mentioned above, where armor pen seems to stack on hits that happen simultaneously. Also the damage multipliers do not seem to work correctly on bleed damage on the crit, critOC or normal OC hits, if they are flanked ones. If I reduce the 25% from stealth CS increase the damage numbers seems to work a lot better on the bleed.
Atleast some way to point out that weapons damage affects differently than powers damage is by comparing lashing blade damages on different weapons and powers.
Again using lvl 4 and 8 dagger without any gear on, power 51, power gives +2 to damage:
Damages on daggers: 17-21 and 26 - 31 => lashing blade damage is in description 642 - 696
Full gear on, same daggers, power 1711, power gives 68.4 damage:
lashing blade in description: 745 - 799
One dagger lvl 4, power 14, power gives 0.2 damage:
Damage on dagger: 17-21 => lashing 494-514
One dagger lvl 8, power 37, power gives 1.5 damage:
Damage on dagger: 26-31 => lashing 544-576
No gear + using purple lvl 60 daggers, power 1344, power gives 53.8 to damage:
Damages on daggers: 384 - 470 x 2 = 756 - 940 => lashing blade damage is in description: 4773 - 5728.
We can notice from the min max in here that 1 damage on weapon gives 5 or more damage to lashing blade, where as using lvl 8 + 6 daggers having 1660 more power the damages were only increased by 130 with 66.4 damage increase from power. I did also test this with purple 60 lvl daggers and the result was exactly the same 130 damage increase from that same 1660 power. This means that 16.1 power roughly increases lashing blade damage by 1. So if this damage increase is linear, it would mean that even 6k power would only increase lashing damage by roughly 370 damage which is ~7% damage increase. If the power scales as small as this one or even smaller on bleed, that would really explain why I did not notice bleed damage changing from increasing 1660 power.
So next I thought about seeing duelist flurry damage numbers according to description:
4+8 daggers, full gear => 208 - 219
4+8 daggers, no gear => 128 - 138
Lvl 60 daggers, full => 1078 - 1267
lvl 60 daggers, no gear => 987 - 1174
Interestingly in duelist flurry at least according to the description, the power seems to scale more when I had more power. As in I gained 80 damage from 1660 damage with low lvl daggers, and 92 with higher ones. So the flurry gives approx 9% damage increase with 1660 power which is actually pretty well. In my testings I should have noticed 9% damage difference if it would have happened on bleed, so we can assume that the damage difference shown on duelist flurry description at least doesn't match with bleeds damage.
Then duelist flurry hits, I can check some random numbers, not taking all count, from my yesterdays tests.
Quick glance, I didn't run through lots of analysis, simply checked few numbers to give rough figures: Without gear ~390 damage and with gear ~420 damage. So the 1660 power (notice this is before the huge patch) gives roughly 30 damage, which is somewhat 8% increase. Since the numbers were taken without that much testing, I could assume they represent quite close to what duelist flurry damage increase does. Since we are talking this big damage increase, I should have noticed this much damage difference during my tests of hitting 10th stack bleed.
What comes to bleed hastening tick timer, this is something I wasn't aware of. I did notice that increasing a stack makes bleed tick (this is what neverbleed is based on), but I didn't notice that the time between bleed ticks shortens by the amount of stacks on target.
"What comes to bleed hastening tick timer, this is something I wasn't aware of. I did notice that increasing a stack makes bleed tick (this is what neverbleed is based on), but I didn't notice that the time between bleed ticks shortens by the amount of stacks on target. "
That isn't what I meant exactly....I will try to explain better.
So assume we already have a 10 stack on an enemy. When we do a duelist's flurry hit (the third hit) you can still "apply" bleeds, which is how you refresh the stack. But these hits are not different from the bleed already on the mob, they appear to just speed up the next tick. That is to say that if the next regular tick of the bleed was 0.5 seconds away, it instead just forces it to happen when you proc a bleed application. You can see this by stacking 10 bleeds on an enemy, then checking the damage done by subsequent bleed procs during a flurry. You are looking for "Duelist Flurry Hit" Followed within usually 1 ms by "Duelist Flurry Bleed". This is also where I get the idea that later bleed ticks are not affected by armor pen. When I tested this I did not see the double ARP appication bug that you are experiencing. But I also was attacking a mob with no damage reduction. But if this double reduction bug is in fact happening, then at least ARP is affecting the bleed damage for certain now.
I do agree though that if the bleed damage was scaling linearly with the tooltip duelist's flurry damage that it should be noticably different with more power. I still don't necessarily agree that it's correct to say it has no affect just because the change isn't as big as we expect. Chances are better than one of the 1000 different bugs currently affecting the bleed damage is causing this phenomenon. But you and others have at least shown that, for the time being/current patch, power does not make any significant difference in the bleed damage.
That isn't what I meant exactly....I will try to explain better.
So assume we already have a 10 stack on an enemy. When we do a duelist's flurry hit (the third hit) you can still "apply" bleeds, which is how you refresh the stack. But these hits are not different from the bleed already on the mob, they appear to just speed up the next tick. That is to say that if the next regular tick of the bleed was 0.5 seconds away, it instead just forces it to happen when you proc a bleed application. You can see this by stacking 10 bleeds on an enemy, then checking the damage done by subsequent bleed procs during a flurry. You are looking for "Duelist Flurry Hit" Followed within usually 1 ms by "Duelist Flurry Bleed". This is also where I get the idea that later bleed ticks are not affected by armor pen. When I tested this I did not see the double ARP appication bug that you are experiencing. But I also was attacking a mob with no damage reduction. But if this double reduction bug is in fact happening, then at least ARP is affecting the bleed damage for certain now.
I actually had to test this myself, because it could improve my Neverbleeds realibility on determining if bleed timer was reset or not. Sadly I have to debunk this claim.
Here is the set up: I smashed dummy for bit over 8 mins, opened the log and took the first 10th stack bleed which happened at 1:06:41.8 and took the last time the bleed happened: 1:15:08.9. Now I had bleed ticking 508 times during that period. If I count how many seconds is between that time I get 507 seconds. Now if we add 1 from the initial starting number, since first tick started at 0, we get 508. This means bleed ticked 508 times during that period.
Now here is what I figured that would have caused the belief of hastened ticks after 10th stack. I noticed this while I was making neverbleed and while I've been checking combat logs, that the order of the log is actually inconsistent. The timestamps throw off every now and then, and my thought on this is, that the server sends the packet of lets say bleed tick. The client reads the packet and marks its own time in the log, since there is random time delay between the client and the server, the timestamps most likely do not show always the correct time. Now since there could be whatever delay between sending and receiving the packet, the log goes out of order at times or the time stamps keeps jumping oddly. I can easily give an example of this:
As you can see the bleed damage changes 2 times in a row and there is no hit between them. The example is kind of bad since it only has 100 ms difference, but still it should at least show that the log itself is kind of inconsistent on the timestamps.
You tested if the combat log was broken, not the claim I was making. You can definately pull any given log and see that on a bleed application you see "Duelist Flurry Hit" Immediately followed by "Duelist Flurry Bleed". Given that the flurry lasts ~2 seconds, and you hit 9 times, on average stacking 4-5 hits, it's pretty obvious that you are applying more than 1 per second. This is regardless of whether these stacks hasten the 1 second timer or not.
In other words based on what I have seen in combat logs, claiming that Bleed ticks = seconds in a test is impossible.
You tested if the combat log was broken, not the claim I was making. You can definately pull any given log and see that on a bleed application you see "Duelist Flurry Hit" Immediately followed by "Duelist Flurry Bleed". Given that the flurry lasts ~2 seconds, and you hit 9 times, on average stacking 4-5 hits, it's pretty obvious that you are applying more than 1 per second. This is regardless of whether these stacks hasten the 1 second timer or not.
In other words based on what I have seen in combat logs, claiming that Bleed ticks = seconds in a test is impossible.
No what you said is, that the bleed ticks after 10 stacks more often than once per second, and I proved that this is not the case. After you reach 10 stacks, the bleed ticks only once per second regardless if you do duelist flurry hit or not. What you claimed is that you can still make bleed tick more than once per second.
"So assume we already have a 10 stack on an enemy. When we do a duelist's flurry hit (the third hit) you can still "apply" bleeds, which is how you refresh the stack. But these hits are not different from the bleed already on the mob, they appear to just speed up the next tick."
Now if this was the case during that 8 minute of me doing duelist flurry hits, 507 seconds, 507 bleeds, 1158 flurry hits I got 0 extra bleed ticks in my combat log that it is not proving my point? Basically you're saying that the ticks are invisible in combat log, but yet you say that I can pull any combat log to see that the ticks happen more often than once after passing 10 stacks. Yet I didn't have single one in 1158 hits, even if the probability was only 1% it would still be 1 - (0.99)^1158 which is something probably close to 99.9999999999% chance.
The bleed ticks more often than once per second only when a new bleed stack is applied, as in the stack count rises. This means after you've reached 10 stacks, it won't tick more often than once per second, 20 stacks with 2 rogues and so on.
So doing more testing myself, I do not see the pattern I had seen in the past. I do definitely see Duelist's Flurry hits modulating the timer, but never outside of the 0.8-1.2 second range. And this isn't something that always happens (Due to bleed procs occuring randomly), so that can be attributed to randomness a lot more easily than I could ever prove it's due to the reapplication of the bleed.
Bleeds may not be being hastened (as 2 reapplications never seem to occur on the same flurry), but you definitely see more modulation when doing a flurry than when not.
since gauntlgrym isn't that far away i ask myself (since there is a pvp part in it) how to move around stats. assuming they make phase 2 a "normal" pvp match, there won't be any pets around. so i would try to move over enchants and items between my pet and character to get the most out of it without switching gear (if it won't work -> buying the same items again or other ones (+enchants) and keep them in my inventory to switch). so my question to all who participated in here - how would you guys weight stats in pvp and what are the numbers (crit, power, arpen (?), recovery) to aim for.
I'd say the stats are pretty much the same. You probably don't *need* 22% arp in PVP usually, but then again you might need more. Crit is also a big deal since any spec benefits from crits. Recovery is still underwhelming in pvp. And power will depend on exactly how much it scales up.
I am worried about the PvE viability of the class now
If you take TR total damage down by 35+% then GFs will out DPS us. Who wants to bring a TR to a group then? Heck with the Astral Shield coold-down nerf I can see groups making it mandatory to bring 2-clerics to stagger their shields and choosing to go without a TR. Honestly who in the group is upset when the boss goes down a little quicker because the TR shined at signle target DPS?
I don't see the upping of power contributions to encounters and dailys making much of a difference as the big hitters are on long cool-downs.
Maybe i overlooked it but Solso can you post how much armor penetration:1512
power:4287
crit:2778(46.4%)
recovery:1985
defence:982
deflect:206
lifesteal:1511
you have? Or what number to aim at? Mine i put here.(i have lesser vorpal stone. Companion Ioun stone. Full swashbuck set. Both spymaster daggers.
Offcourse anyone who can advice me wich stats needs to be higher or lower is more then welcome to advice me please.
You have about the right amount of crit, need another 700 or so armor pen.
Have you done any testing on how much power is going to help increase encounters?
I just got set up with my TR and now I am wondering if DF is so beat down that one of the other non-Executioner builds will be better now, or if despite DF and DM nerfs that Executioner/Metzli will still be the king.
Comments
Not an OH, it's a bug with a certain MH.
this would be awesome! Apart from that i would really appreciate it if you could do some "norm" builds.
Some kind of low-mid-high-bis builds. Cause right now i'm aiming for you target number but without rly having an idea if i couldn't reach it by far easier if i took different items.
As far as a best in slot list goes, it's really simple really. The CN accessories have the highest stat allotments, so they are the best. You can get a blue belt with an offensive slot, which makes that the best. The CN daggers have the highest weapon damage, and a bonus 450 stats, so they are the best (short of whatever bugged main hand that can go in an offhand that was mentioned above).
Depending on how the bleed scales with power, Either the 4 set Master Assassin or Swashbuckling set are the best. And obviously the gemmed shirt and pants are the best. Then use whatever enchants you can afford from there.
A middle ground set really doesn't matter much, because chances are that you are only really gaining power and maybe some recovery going from low/mid to BiS. Getting the 5200 (at most) stats you need to start stacking power probably does not take all that much gear, granted you can get crit / arp on it. As far as T1 sets go, you're best served getting 4 piece shadewalker if you need the armor pen. Otherwise get 2 Shadowwalker, 2 Master duelist's for the 800 total stats bonus.
But again the mid ground set I don't feel is worth really fleshing out because it really depends on what stat you are missing. Also I don't have an expansive list of each different item. Also the main difference with gear given how (relatively) low our caps are is just power stacking.
I think I covered the new stuff since last time I responded.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Like I pointed out in the Nevebleed thread, bleed is UNAFFECTED by power.
The formula goes as following:
base damage: Stack count * weapon damage * (roughly 2, depends on your points)
In other words, 10th stack = 10 * weapon damage * 2 * ( crit ) * (critically overrun ) if these happen. This also means you HAVE to be stealthed during 10th stack, the bleed damage from stacks 1-9 do not affect the bleed damage on 10th stack.
Bleed damage is also semi affected by arp. If you do duelist flurry hits WHILE the bleed hits, you get arp counted, if youre not doing that, then it wont be affected by arp. Very weird thing.
How to test this out, take off all the armors buy lvl 4 dagger, smash dummies. You notice that you get 4 damage range on 10th stack. Normal, critically overrun normal, crit and critically overrun crit. Then put back your equipments that increase power by whatever number, do testing again and you get exactly same numbers. Do this with higher level daggers and the numbers are exactly same. You just have to make sure you hit 5 stacks of deadly before 10th stack and youre good to go using the numbers.
To give a good estimation of my numbers
I hit around 2k damage on 10th stack with 5 deadly stack normally
around 2.8k critically overrun normal
around 5k dmg with crit
and around 7.3k damage with crit overrun crit
I hit 2.8k in stealthed ( 20% + 20% extra damage from feats + 25% extra CS from feats too ) In mezils build for some odd reason the 20% extra damage during stealth is not there but instead 20% AP gain from stealth. Parsing the combatlog from spellplague runs, rogues get around 22 dailies worth daily power on the run.
around 4k damage stealth crit overrun normal
around 7.5k damage with crit
and around 10k damage with crit overrun crit.
Then with crit overrun crit + lurkers + stealth + extra damage from coming out of stealth about 23k
This is with half-orc having 24dex, 24str, 14 charisma. 2x thickgristle jagged daggers. gs not even 9k.
In overall with all this information I think this makes PvP set almost best set in the game for rogues.
Also something I would recommend other rogues, if youre taking impossible to catch, I honestly believe its far better opener than wicked strike. You do not want to be interrupted during lurkers and impossible to catch breaks stealth too + gives you invurability for short period. Also something worth noting is, that its almost better to do 2 rounds of duelist flurry to get stacks up to around 7-8 before using lurker. I am honestly not sure if the stack count is affected by critical change tho, because it feels like rogues with higher dex seem to push more stacks on their duelist flurry but this is just assumption from my testing not really fact or there is nothing to back this thought up.
Edit: actually after some more testing I honestly dunno how much more damage i do from flanks except on dummies. It seems that its definitely not 40% on t2 dungeons. For normal attacks that is, the bleed damage is solely based on weapon damage. For duelist flurry hit, it seems i did only about 7% more damage in flanked non crit minimum damage than non-flanked noncrit minimum damage. This might be because of the arp too, not sure.
Base damage: Stack count * weapon damage * (roughly 2, depends on your points)
10th stack = 10 * weapon damage * 2 * ( crit ) * (critically overrun )
Power = Bonus Weapon Damage. Therefore power scales directly into the formula you made for calculating the bleed damage.
I would like to also know where the term "(roughly 2, depends on your points)" comes from. Convenient constants that you have no actual explanation for other than that your data fits are not very great to use.
Also...:
"Bleed damage is also semi affected by arp. If you do duelist flurry hits WHILE the bleed hits, you get arp counted, if youre not doing that, then it wont be affected by arp. Very weird thing."
The fact that you mentioned this basically tells me you aren't correct, or are at least overlooking a major variable. If your formula was correct, there is no reason whatsoever that ARP would affect the damage. Also bleeds are only applied when you do a duelist flurry hit. And only debuffs on the enemy affect the bleed damage after 10 stacks, not ARP.
"I hit 2.8k in stealthed ( 20% + 20% extra damage from feats + 25% extra CS from feats too )"
I don't really understand exactly what you were trying to say, but I can tell you that the "20% bonus CA damage" does not equate to 20% bonus damage. It's a 20% multiplicative bonus to your CA damage bonus. This is more around a 4% dps bonus.
"In overall with all this information I think this makes PvP set almost best set in the game for rogues."
I do not understand this statement at all. Based on everything you just said, the only stat that you should be stacking is crit, since it is the only thing that really affects the bleed damage, which is 80% or so of our dps when it crits. But that is entirely the wrong mindset, since increasing our dps really comes down to buffing the last 20% (not to mention that power DOES affect bleed damage).
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
What I said was power does not affect bleed damage. Like I said you can try out taking all your armors and items and still the bleeds damage does not change if you hit full combo. What I did notice tho the feats that I thought giving 20% extra damage from stealth do not do this. In fact you just seem to get roughly 40% extra damage to bleed if you're stealthed, why no idea.
Like I said, if i use lvl 4 dagger that gives 30 damage, I should hit with 1.5k power higher bleeds than without one. But this is not really the case. It hits exactly same damage on 10th stack bleed with 14 power as it does with 1.5k power. The power itself gives more damage than the daggers do, so it should hit at least twice as hard, but sadly it does not, if it was power related it should have boosted the damage by 10 times. Even with lvl 60 daggers 1.5k power should give roughly 10% weapon damage, so the bleeds should be 10% higher damage, but they hit exactly same damages. Does that mean that my characters power is less worthy than others?
As for the fact that you can swap weapon after 6 stacks of bleed, and the damage drops to that weapons damage range of bleed in it obviously proves that the stack count does not affect the bleeds damage other than directly multiplying it by stack count, there is no addition or anything. If there was after hitting 9 stacks of bleed with daggers that does 100th of the damage the damage should be at least 10% lower, more like 90% but it just isn't.
Sure I do admit its not like its an absolutely the best formula, and I got the 2 it is probably bit higher than this maybe closer to 2.1-2.2 or something, by mostly through testing out on lvl 60 purple daggers, and thats about what the number is. Sure I am not 100% sure what that constant value is, but its there to give rough estimation.
As for the bleed damage, it does vary after 10th stack, I have no idea why it does but it does IF you are doing flurry hit when it ticks, it gives more arp during the flurry hit. That's how the damage changes.
As for the number 2 multiplier, well I had arp it didnt change, I had more power and it doesn't change, so I came into conclusion that it is most likely a character stat dependant. Sure for arp it could affect, I cannot say for 100% arp doesn't affect, but you can go try beat lvl 40 mobs with 20% arp, it might actually matter but.... dunno. Because i dont have that high arp I am not absolutely sure if arp affects or not. I just noticed my 6% arp only affected during the flurry hits even when there were 10 stacks on the mob.
Also since you said power affects bleed gimme numbers. I gave mine what I do when I have daggers only and when I have something on each giving similar damage numbers.
What probably throws off people calculating the bleed count is the deadly momentum + critically overrun. If you eliminate this, by only taking count those bleeds that have 5 deadly momentum stacks when 10th stack hits you can get only 4 kinds of numbers if you're stealthed.
Ok to give more concrete things:
This guys video http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?299681-Boss-DPS-guide
Vs my screenshot:
http://i.imgur.com/OxVi7oC.jpg
3k power difference = 22643 vs 22497.... yep power makes all the difference. Almost 150 damage on critically overrun crit during lurkers.
You're getting 40% extra damage to the bleed while stealthed because you get a 25% CS bonus to your already (10%+Charisma)*20% combat advantage damage. That is around 40%, if not higher.
Where are your logs showing "exactly" the same damage from a level 4 dagger to a level 60 dagger? You can't just say they are exactly the same, because they are not. You need logs. From logs we can calculate actual formulas instead of shoddy guesswork. Obviously the bleed damage scales in a weird, non-intuitive way. Saying based on bad testing methods that power and ARP have no influence on it just sets the whole community back.
There is also the possibility that the bleed damage is based on weapon damage/power and doesn't scale that much, and from the research I already did, it is based on the stacks. The more stacks you have, the more damage it does. You get some unusual effects at 10 stacks, but that is not the same as saying only the 10th stack matters.
The 2.x constant is just a constant to make your numbers fit your formula. That's not how you do math. Also from the multiple skills I have worked out formulas for in this game, there are no flat, hidden constants usually. Therefore it would be pretty odd for them to throw one in at random.
I have tested it many times, and ran actual logs (unlike you seem to be doing) and the bleed damage is constant after 10 stacks except for a few exceptions:
1. The stack falls off.
2. You add a damage resistance/defense reduction debuff to the mob.
ARP would have no effect at a 10 stack as ARP's involvement with the damage (if there is any) has already been accomplished.
I said power effects the bleed because YOUR FORMULA says weapon damage effects the bleed. Power IS weapon damage.
Also your screenshot vs his video is not proof of anything. In your screenshot we cannot tell if that was an overrun critical bleed or not. Nor can we make a similar assumption about his. You can make the claim that power probably doesn't do all that much for the bleed, but you still have done no actual accurate math showing this. 1500 power adds about 60 damage to the spread of the base Duelist's flurry hit. The spread is 200. So it is entirely possible that you could get similar numbers with 1500 power difference, or even the same.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Based on the many many times I've tried to stack, I'd say that there's more significance to the 10th stack than just crit/overrun than not.
Your damage will pretty much be crippled if you don't reach max stack while lurkers is active.
Just to point out, i did stacks 1-7 without stealth just randomly slashing the doll. Also from that video you can see that it is critically overrun crit, why? Cos if you look at the damages on duelist flurry hits before the bleed stack goes in, they are all same crit damage, 4.5k. If you look bit more up you see 3k critical hit on duelist flurry hit. Also between these, there is absolutely no deadly stacks increased, because even that is shown on the combatlog of that video. Now if youve actually done any testing as you said, you can agree that the bleed damage is dependant on the hit that activates the stack, meaning if the duelist flurry hit just before the bleed is critically overrun crit = bleed will be critically overrun crit.
Also I am guaranteed that I can do the same with hitting lvl 4 daggers up to 9th stack, then swapping and going stealth -> doing encounter -> lurkers -> stealth and hitting 10th stack bleed if it happens to be critically overrun bleed.
But how bout you test it out yourself, hit 10th stack bleed with 5 deadly stacks without armor on, and with armor on and tell me how much damage difference you can make. Also make sure it is both times critically overrun crit bleed. Then you should continue proving that im wrong. Taking screenshots of the damages in both cases. If I am wrong then sure I will admit it.
So what youre saying power scaled badly.... so 1.5k power on lvl 4 dagger that gives 14-18 damage and gives 0 damage difference means power actually affects. When the power itself should give almost 3 times the damage compared to the dagger.
Now why i keep insiting on lvl 4 daggers is, because the bleed damage that comes in stacks is almost linear.
the picture earlier,
http://i.imgur.com/OxVi7oC.jpg
So logs:
Edit: sorry there was wrong log posted. Had same log as in the second one.
Edit2: Managed to change font color to black on the log
http://i.imgur.com/Rhw4gDC.jpg
Weapon swap between stacks: The first bleed pic in this post
Then with armors etc on:
http://i.imgur.com/pE0bzku.jpg
Full gear: Third pic in this post
edit: The full gears log was actually the weapon swap ones, now it finally should be correct one.
I tested the flurry hits on several mobs, and everytime while I was doing duelist flurry 3rd attack = duelist flurry hits, the bleed had more arp on its hit if it ticked while i was doing it. It actually doesn't matter how many stacks are on the mob just as long as you are hitting the mob with duelist flurry hit while the bleed is ticking. After the duelist flurry hit stops, the mobs gain more armor. Now since I didn't get to test this in a dungeon, I cannot know if it affects mobs in a dungeon, but at least that seems to be the case of the couple of different mobs I tested on. I had to use low level daggers so that the mobs didn't die during the flurry but the mobs I tested this on are in mount hotenow.
In your other thread, you mentioned (correct me if I'm wrong) that the order of stats to prioritize would be Arpen (2222) > Crit (2000) > Rec (not too sure what are the numbers) > All the rest into powers. But the Swashbuckling Set being the BIS doesn't add much Arpen. In that case, how can we stack Arpen to 2222? Am I missing out on something here?
@Kurahavi Until I feel like doing more testing myself I will take your word for it on the power scaling. As far as the ARP issue goes, if what you saw on mount hotenow is true, it would indicate that bleed damage is calculated in a subprocess that accounts for resistance, then again applied with debuffs added, which is weird.
I know that when you do the duelist's flurry hits they reapply the bleed, and hasten the tick timer, but they shouldn't change the damage done if it's already a 10 stack unless you add a debuff to the mob. But I also have done most of my testing on dummies which have no damage resistance, so it could be possible that some weird stuff is going on. If it is indeed using a subprocess to calculate resistances before remultiplying by the negative resistance then this would make sense. However it makes no sense whatsoever for them to calculate the bleed this way.
Also apologies if I came off a bit hostile on this topic, you just made some very out there (IE against common wisdom) statements without your math/logs to back them up, so was a bit apprehensive to put any real stock in them.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Honestly I thought my Neverbleed was broken when I noticed the resistance going down on bleed while I was doing duelist flurry hits. I confirmed that the game shows different numbers during the duelist flurry by watching the damage floaters going up. The only explanation I could think of is, that the duelist flurry hit itself is bugged and considered a debuff rather than an attack. If this is the case it should reduce armor from all damage sources, which on the otherhand seems very unlikely (haven't tested, since it would require 2 people). So I do not have any kind of idea what could be the cause of this. Actually with more thoughts this could possible be tested with path of blades to see if its actually affecting other skills or just for some reason the bleed.
Now that the patch is done, I went to do some testings, and I noticed that the arp does affect other stuffs too. I took an excel sheet and counted arp for every attack, also note that game says that I have 3.5% arp, but the armor if I count correct seems to be reduced by ~3.615%.
So what looks like happening is, that armor is reduced twice on hits that are happening the same time. So I guess this is actually more of a bug than a feature of duelist flurry and bleed.
As for what comes to the "being offensive", I really think that you did point out a lot of things that my "formula" is definitely lacking. First of all it is completely wrong like you said, I forgot to put divide by 10 on it. There is a mysterious *2 on it, which could very well have something to do with stuffs. The base damage to the bleed is still very unclear not to mention why does the damage on 10th stack increase by almost double of flanked hits compared to other skills. What I mean is, on other skills flanks only increase like 15-18% damage but 10th stack bleed the base damage is increased over 30%, unless..... this has something to do with the same bug as mentioned above, where armor pen seems to stack on hits that happen simultaneously. Also the damage multipliers do not seem to work correctly on bleed damage on the crit, critOC or normal OC hits, if they are flanked ones. If I reduce the 25% from stealth CS increase the damage numbers seems to work a lot better on the bleed.
Atleast some way to point out that weapons damage affects differently than powers damage is by comparing lashing blade damages on different weapons and powers.
Again using lvl 4 and 8 dagger without any gear on, power 51, power gives +2 to damage:
Damages on daggers: 17-21 and 26 - 31 => lashing blade damage is in description 642 - 696
Full gear on, same daggers, power 1711, power gives 68.4 damage:
lashing blade in description: 745 - 799
One dagger lvl 4, power 14, power gives 0.2 damage:
Damage on dagger: 17-21 => lashing 494-514
One dagger lvl 8, power 37, power gives 1.5 damage:
Damage on dagger: 26-31 => lashing 544-576
No gear + using purple lvl 60 daggers, power 1344, power gives 53.8 to damage:
Damages on daggers: 384 - 470 x 2 = 756 - 940 => lashing blade damage is in description: 4773 - 5728.
We can notice from the min max in here that 1 damage on weapon gives 5 or more damage to lashing blade, where as using lvl 8 + 6 daggers having 1660 more power the damages were only increased by 130 with 66.4 damage increase from power. I did also test this with purple 60 lvl daggers and the result was exactly the same 130 damage increase from that same 1660 power. This means that 16.1 power roughly increases lashing blade damage by 1. So if this damage increase is linear, it would mean that even 6k power would only increase lashing damage by roughly 370 damage which is ~7% damage increase. If the power scales as small as this one or even smaller on bleed, that would really explain why I did not notice bleed damage changing from increasing 1660 power.
So next I thought about seeing duelist flurry damage numbers according to description:
4+8 daggers, full gear => 208 - 219
4+8 daggers, no gear => 128 - 138
Lvl 60 daggers, full => 1078 - 1267
lvl 60 daggers, no gear => 987 - 1174
Interestingly in duelist flurry at least according to the description, the power seems to scale more when I had more power. As in I gained 80 damage from 1660 damage with low lvl daggers, and 92 with higher ones. So the flurry gives approx 9% damage increase with 1660 power which is actually pretty well. In my testings I should have noticed 9% damage difference if it would have happened on bleed, so we can assume that the damage difference shown on duelist flurry description at least doesn't match with bleeds damage.
Then duelist flurry hits, I can check some random numbers, not taking all count, from my yesterdays tests.
Quick glance, I didn't run through lots of analysis, simply checked few numbers to give rough figures: Without gear ~390 damage and with gear ~420 damage. So the 1660 power (notice this is before the huge patch) gives roughly 30 damage, which is somewhat 8% increase. Since the numbers were taken without that much testing, I could assume they represent quite close to what duelist flurry damage increase does. Since we are talking this big damage increase, I should have noticed this much damage difference during my tests of hitting 10th stack bleed.
What comes to bleed hastening tick timer, this is something I wasn't aware of. I did notice that increasing a stack makes bleed tick (this is what neverbleed is based on), but I didn't notice that the time between bleed ticks shortens by the amount of stacks on target.
That isn't what I meant exactly....I will try to explain better.
So assume we already have a 10 stack on an enemy. When we do a duelist's flurry hit (the third hit) you can still "apply" bleeds, which is how you refresh the stack. But these hits are not different from the bleed already on the mob, they appear to just speed up the next tick. That is to say that if the next regular tick of the bleed was 0.5 seconds away, it instead just forces it to happen when you proc a bleed application. You can see this by stacking 10 bleeds on an enemy, then checking the damage done by subsequent bleed procs during a flurry. You are looking for "Duelist Flurry Hit" Followed within usually 1 ms by "Duelist Flurry Bleed". This is also where I get the idea that later bleed ticks are not affected by armor pen. When I tested this I did not see the double ARP appication bug that you are experiencing. But I also was attacking a mob with no damage reduction. But if this double reduction bug is in fact happening, then at least ARP is affecting the bleed damage for certain now.
I do agree though that if the bleed damage was scaling linearly with the tooltip duelist's flurry damage that it should be noticably different with more power. I still don't necessarily agree that it's correct to say it has no affect just because the change isn't as big as we expect. Chances are better than one of the 1000 different bugs currently affecting the bleed damage is causing this phenomenon. But you and others have at least shown that, for the time being/current patch, power does not make any significant difference in the bleed damage.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
I actually had to test this myself, because it could improve my Neverbleeds realibility on determining if bleed timer was reset or not. Sadly I have to debunk this claim.
Here is the set up: I smashed dummy for bit over 8 mins, opened the log and took the first 10th stack bleed which happened at 1:06:41.8 and took the last time the bleed happened: 1:15:08.9. Now I had bleed ticking 508 times during that period. If I count how many seconds is between that time I get 507 seconds. Now if we add 1 from the initial starting number, since first tick started at 0, we get 508. This means bleed ticked 508 times during that period.
Now here is what I figured that would have caused the belief of hastened ticks after 10th stack. I noticed this while I was making neverbleed and while I've been checking combat logs, that the order of the log is actually inconsistent. The timestamps throw off every now and then, and my thought on this is, that the server sends the packet of lets say bleed tick. The client reads the packet and marks its own time in the log, since there is random time delay between the client and the server, the timestamps most likely do not show always the correct time. Now since there could be whatever delay between sending and receiving the packet, the log goes out of order at times or the time stamps keeps jumping oddly. I can easily give an example of this:
As you can see there is over 1 second delay between the bleed ticks, and then the next tick happens 0.7 seconds later.
And here is an example of out of order thing:
As you can see the bleed damage changes 2 times in a row and there is no hit between them. The example is kind of bad since it only has 100 ms difference, but still it should at least show that the log itself is kind of inconsistent on the timestamps.
In other words based on what I have seen in combat logs, claiming that Bleed ticks = seconds in a test is impossible.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
No what you said is, that the bleed ticks after 10 stacks more often than once per second, and I proved that this is not the case. After you reach 10 stacks, the bleed ticks only once per second regardless if you do duelist flurry hit or not. What you claimed is that you can still make bleed tick more than once per second.
"So assume we already have a 10 stack on an enemy. When we do a duelist's flurry hit (the third hit) you can still "apply" bleeds, which is how you refresh the stack. But these hits are not different from the bleed already on the mob, they appear to just speed up the next tick."
Now if this was the case during that 8 minute of me doing duelist flurry hits, 507 seconds, 507 bleeds, 1158 flurry hits I got 0 extra bleed ticks in my combat log that it is not proving my point? Basically you're saying that the ticks are invisible in combat log, but yet you say that I can pull any combat log to see that the ticks happen more often than once after passing 10 stacks. Yet I didn't have single one in 1158 hits, even if the probability was only 1% it would still be 1 - (0.99)^1158 which is something probably close to 99.9999999999% chance.
The bleed ticks more often than once per second only when a new bleed stack is applied, as in the stack count rises. This means after you've reached 10 stacks, it won't tick more often than once per second, 20 stacks with 2 rogues and so on.
Bleeds may not be being hastened (as 2 reapplications never seem to occur on the same flurry), but you definitely see more modulation when doing a flurry than when not.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
since gauntlgrym isn't that far away i ask myself (since there is a pvp part in it) how to move around stats. assuming they make phase 2 a "normal" pvp match, there won't be any pets around. so i would try to move over enchants and items between my pet and character to get the most out of it without switching gear (if it won't work -> buying the same items again or other ones (+enchants) and keep them in my inventory to switch). so my question to all who participated in here - how would you guys weight stats in pvp and what are the numbers (crit, power, arpen (?), recovery) to aim for.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
If you take TR total damage down by 35+% then GFs will out DPS us. Who wants to bring a TR to a group then? Heck with the Astral Shield coold-down nerf I can see groups making it mandatory to bring 2-clerics to stagger their shields and choosing to go without a TR. Honestly who in the group is upset when the boss goes down a little quicker because the TR shined at signle target DPS?
I don't see the upping of power contributions to encounters and dailys making much of a difference as the big hitters are on long cool-downs.
power:4287
crit:2778(46.4%)
recovery:1985
defence:982
deflect:206
lifesteal:1511
you have? Or what number to aim at? Mine i put here.(i have lesser vorpal stone. Companion Ioun stone. Full swashbuck set. Both spymaster daggers.
Offcourse anyone who can advice me wich stats needs to be higher or lower is more then welcome to advice me please.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Have you done any testing on how much power is going to help increase encounters?
I just got set up with my TR and now I am wondering if DF is so beat down that one of the other non-Executioner builds will be better now, or if despite DF and DM nerfs that Executioner/Metzli will still be the king.