Not asking for any nerfs! but freeze is getting old!

ripyourlipsoff · August 2014

I also play a CW and prior to MOD 3 we had no problem doing damage all we needed was better control...

But now as a CW all I do is icy rays rof anything and its dead in seconds? In PvP playing against a CW I can kill them its very difficult as my guard doesn't block icy rays? So chill stacks are crazy fast and I spend most my time in an iceberg.

I would like to see chill stacks tempered, or my guard should block icy rays its way to easy to stack chill even as a non chill specced CW! I would expect an oppressor CW chill stacking like crazy but Thuam and Renegade? Not cool! Stacking chill on my shield is fine but when I guard your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and am rooted with stacks ......

pointsman · August 2014

The fix to chill stacks OFFERS that better control that CWs were lacking. By reverting chill stacks back to their useless pre-mod4 state is just to remove that control and turn all of the CWs back to DPS wizards again.

lisaxxii · August 2014

pointsman wrote: »

The fix to chill stacks OFFERS that better control that CWs were lacking. By reverting chill stacks back to their useless pre-mod4 state is just to remove that control and turn all of the CWs back to DPS wizards again.

CW control was always fine, you all were just friggen terrible gamers and could not figure out how to use shard or build your CW properly. Now you have 1 button ezmode and you're loving it.

I played with many many CWs I never heard a single one complain, they were all pretty **** happy in fact. Now those CWs hate their class because it is boring and stupid broken. Every now and then a good CW comes to the forums and articulates their frustration. Then the nubbies flock to the thread and shout FOUL.

Take a hint, it's not CW, it never was, it's you. Always has been!

=D

hamletswords · August 2014

pointsman wrote: »

The fix to chill stacks OFFERS that better control that CWs were lacking. By reverting chill stacks back to their useless pre-mod4 state is just to remove that control and turn all of the CWs back to DPS wizards again.

Orb of imposition is tons of extra control now. And even without it, mod3 cws had more control than any other class by far.

Freeze should break on damage again.

ianthewizard2012 · August 2014

hamletswords wrote: »

Freeze should break on damage again.

Making the break speed scales with control strength (Wisdom, Orb of Imposition, Control Bonus, etc) might be okay. But reverting it back to the previous state would render Freeze pointless again because anyone in both PvE and PvP was able to break it immediately.

lisaxxii · August 2014

ianthewizard2012 wrote: »

Making the break speed scales with control strength (Wisdom, Orb of Imposition, Control Bonus, etc) might be okay. But reverting it back to the previous state would render the Freeze pointless again because anyone in both PvE and PvP was able to break it immediately.

See I don't remember a time when getting frozen didn't suck... I don't remember ever being able to "break" out of freeze. Cw's were always able to cc a melee from one end of the map to the other. The difference was their damage made that not a big deal. However a CW could always survive against a melee while roaming and could simply cc and lead them to their teammates who would then dispose of said melee.

It was a good system and worked well. It was also pretty balanced.

ianthewizard2012 · August 2014

lisaxxii wrote: »

See I don't remember a time when getting frozen didn't suck... I don't remember ever being able to "break" out of freeze. Cw's were always able to cc a melee from one end of the map to the other. The difference was their damage made that not a big deal. However a CW could always survive against a melee while roaming and could simply cc and lead them to their teammates who would then dispose of said melee.

It was a good system and worked well. It was also pretty balanced.

PvE needs to be took into account first as it is the main content.

kingcalous · September 2014

ianthewizard2012 wrote: »

PvE needs to be took into account first as it is the main content.

It was, when they nerfed CW because they were <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> OP in PvE which caused a problem because groups were stacking CW.

How fricken blind are you people?

inthere23 · September 2014

ianthewizard2012 wrote: »

PvE needs to be took into account first as it is the main content.

No PVP needs to be addressed 1st because it always has the most whiners.

hamletswords · September 2014

ianthewizard2012 wrote: »

PvE needs to be took into account first as it is the main content.

In PVE it's OP too. Things are frozen non-stop.

relativity · September 2014

I, for one, don't like how Module 4 disregarded arcane spells and made all CWs use chill attacks.

On preview we were suggesting buffing arcane powers through arcane enhancement feat (PvP Renegades would then go back to Magic Missile, RoE, and hopefully Shard, since it's arcane spell). And tone down chill feat a bit which is twice as effective on chilled target then arcane enhancement on arcane spells. I see chill being everywhere. You can empower your chill at will through 3 feats! How it this even possible? How is it not biased against arcane CWs. You have additional buffs/debuffs on Oppressor and Thauma for chilled targets. They even forced chilling presence feat into renegade tree! This is madness. I don't like it. I want to see some diversity. I want my arcane spells arsenal be competitive with chill one. Till Mod 4 I've never used CoI nor Icy terrain, and ray of frost only optionally. Now I see them more effective then anything else, and shard is gone forever.

ianthewizard2012 · September 2014

hamletswords wrote: »

In PVE it's OP too. Things are frozen non-stop.

But they are also unfrozen non-stop, and that makes freeze pointless.

hamletswords · September 2014

ianthewizard2012 wrote: »

But they are also unfrozen non-stop, and that makes freeze pointless.

It's not totally pointless. It's at least an interrupt/stutter, which in pvp is about as long as roots last for HR.

It should be used as a way to set up your real CC from abilities, not as your main source of CC.

Spamming rof would still be useful against GFs to get through their shield and then entangle them, but it wouldn't be a permanent lockdown like it is now.

The situation is totally ridiculous in PVP and PVE. In PVP you get caught once and you're dead. In PVE CWs are not in danger of being not wanted, a nerf bringing their CC back close to mod3 would not hurt them at all.

yperkeimenos · September 2014

hamletswords wrote: »

In PVE it's OP too. Things are frozen non-stop.

I think you're OP,so lets nerf you. Seriously though, Control Wizards Should Exert Huge amounts of Control . You know,if people didn't cry like babies for nerf,nerf,nerf like it's a litany,then maybe the Devs would have listened. What happened is that the nerf talk became so out of proportions that the Devs considered most of all negative feedback as spam and did what they thought best............. Anyway if you run a dungeon with more than one Cw, things should and will remain frozen and that's how it should be.Otherwise it's like asking for the entire class to be removed from the Game.

helpimblindinrl · September 2014

Yeah but no that's a total bunch of lies. CW was the weakest class by far in module 3.

crazymikee · September 2014

I just wish I could cc people without having to use chill stacks, because ALL fantasy wizards are 100% cold related, or even combine cold and fire. (makes perfect sense) Rather just be able to have chill as a damage bonus and have another way of ccing opponents, something more wizardry and less cold related. Magic just doesn't seem "cold" to me, from almost ALL the other fantasy games I've played, magic would conduct of off an enemies armor and effectivly boil them in their own armor, while on Neverwinter it cools them instead of boils them. Take runescape for example (it turned **** in 2012 dont play it) Mages had high damage on melee players with armor because magic conducts off of armor, while melee players had higher damage on mages because they were only in cloth, and it made sense. On Neverwinter, it's basically whoever's class is able to get the highest defence, leaving no room for customization, tank mages, ect. It shouldn't be that some classes are 100% restricted to having naturally low defence stats, while all classes can have the same offensive stats, honestly makes no sense to me. but if i knew that when i first started who knows how my life my have turned out

pointsman · September 2014

yperkeimenos wrote: »

I think you're OP,so lets nerf you. Seriously though, Control Wizards Should Exert Huge amounts of Control . You know,if people didn't cry like babies for nerf,nerf,nerf like it's a litany,then maybe the Devs would have listened. What happened is that the nerf talk became so out of proportions that the Devs considered most of all negative feedback as spam and did what they thought best............. Anyway if you run a dungeon with more than one Cw, things should and will remain frozen and that's how it should be.Otherwise it's like asking for the entire class to be removed from the Game.

Well of course. The Mod 4 CW preview thread went something like this:

Devs: Hi all, here are some changes...
PVP GWFs: CWs are broken OP, nerf them!
PVP CWs: WAA WE WANT SHARD BACK

I don't blame them for ignoring the feedback. 99% of it was just noise.

CW freeze is working as it ought to. If you can get chill stacks high enough, the target is *frozen*. Otherwise, *what is the point of chill stacks*?

And YES I think Arcane Stacks don't get enough love either. It would be nice if there were a similar mechanic for Arcane Stacks, i.e., get them up high enough and you get buffed with 20% more power or something for a short duration.

pointsman · September 2014

And here's the deal.

The current freeze mechanics allow 1 Oppressor CW to be able to lock down and freeze most, if not all, of the controllable adds. This is the sort of thing people were demanding pre-mod4. CW - controls adds via freeze; Everyone else - kills adds. Take that away again and it's back to multi-CW parties.

ironzerg79 · September 2014

It still takes a CW a few seconds to freeze a target, and any sort of CC-immunity power (like sprint) will drop the stacks. I can still get stunned for a couple seconds by a GF or GWF, and that's more than enough time for them to kill me.

Unfortunately, classes can't just get caught out in the open and with a big gap between them and a CW anymore. They'll get frozen before they can close the gap (most of the time).

Best option is just to adapt your strategy. CW's aren't free kills for GF's and GWF's any more.

nativejoe · September 2014

CW does have to choose between dps and Control. So now you want to Nerf my control?

I'm specced Oppressor. 15.3k gs and Specced fully into control with companions and artifacts. Some of my skills don't even work because the control stat is so high. Arcane singularity for one has become a repel spell x.x

At any rate what I'm saying is my Dps isn't very competitive. a 10k gs Dot speced CW can Out dps me in pve dungeons. I don't need my damage nerfed. x.x I already Got 3-4k damage attacks pretty much on all my abilities, how much more do you guys wanna take off?

As for choosing between CC and Damage... Take into consideration That I do mediocre dps compared to dps specced characters and also take into consideration that other dps specced CW's cannot ever do half the control I can. Infact I still see plenty of them having difficulty soloing heroics in ice windale because the mobs just slam them into oblivion as soon as steal time fails. There is a choice, and there is no Way around that. All this whining has already gotten Shield and Assailent nerfed multiple times, How about we focus on crying for buffs to the other classes before you guys get CW's nerfed into uselessness and then have truly horrific problems getting thru dungeons.

In addition since I'm not dpsing as hard as everyone else I'm also being screwed over on drops...
Currently the Loot system is based on this... whomever has the highiest dps, highiest healing, and most damage taken Get the loot (been confirmed by devs) and as a CC or debuffer there is NO REWARD or point system for us... And you guys are wanting to bring more nerfs to my class? They Recently destroyed the Damage of all our skills ( cuts range from 40-80% damage reduced) and Now im lucky if I see a 8k crit. ALL our damage now literally comes Passives and Random number Generator... For those of who you don't play our class and just see us as overpowered monsters Consider the fact that the only way for us to effectivly dps now is to stack The number of Dots we can muster by changing our companions into ones that have a chance to add a dot such as poisen, and ditch the vorpals for a fiery or plague fire to get another dot that does no real damage but adds a "chance" for us to do some damage. Our class with dots feels souless... there's no "impact" to our skills, just a Passive Damage tick that RNG gives us.

The CW's your seeing out there, arn't the gods they where before. We've been Cut down, and remodled into a RNG dot class that is trying to compete with other classes like warlocks in dungeons when they can Slaughter us on the dps charts with blue equipment and No boons. Don't make things harder on us.
If you have a problem with where your class is sitting don't cry for nerfs on everyone else, instead go to your forum and cry for buffs.

Some of you say my class is overpowered... But at 15.3k gs, I Cannot 1 shot some of the level 26 mobs in neverdeath (with an encounter or at will). Can you say the same?

In my opinion if you specced into control, you need to get that control, And the freeze is right where it needs to be. My dps... not so much... But Honestly I made the choice between damage and Control. GWF's and GFs don't get to rofl stomp me anymore... that is untill they get their basically control immunity artifacts. Which there are some, making my control absolutly useless. So as much as control is effective right now. My ability to control a target will diminish as this module wears on and eventually I will be left with no dps, and no control in pvp.

ripyourlipsoff · September 2014

All I want is if I see you and get caught in the open, and I time my guard is should BLOCK icy rays! Thats it, thats all I want...

If I miss and am rooted you beat me fair and square, but right now I got no counter unless I run around with full AP waiting to Villains Menace? But I think you'll still root me as VM doesn't give cc immunity during the stupidly long animation... Lol doomed!

ripyourlipsoff · September 2014

nativejoe wrote: »

CW does have to choose between dps and Control. So now you want to Nerf my control?

No one said we wanted to nerf your control calm down...:) I just want to be able to block Icy Ray or Entangling Force.

You don't really need to spec control or dps by the way, I roll Thaum and just RoF a target pretty much kills them! Then if they're alive I have 4 encounter to use if I so wish... My CW is 14.8k and has no issue doing damage or control.

However my 18k GF has much problem blocking control atm, as our guard seems bugged.

charononus · September 2014

Your guard is bugged. So quit trying to nerf another class because of a bug.

aulduron · September 2014

Just revert CWs back to mod 3, and get rid of tenacity. Problem solved.

xtraordinary91 · September 2014

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

No one said we wanted to nerf your control calm down...:) I just want to be able to block Icy Ray or Entangling Force.

You don't really need to spec control or dps by the way, I roll Thaum and just RoF a target pretty much kills them! Then if they're alive I have 4 encounter to use if I so wish... My CW is 14.8k and has no issue doing damage or control.

However my 18k GF has much problem blocking control atm, as our guard seems bugged.

You can block Entangling Force. Just not if I am behind you.

Inregards to blocking Icy Rays, GFs want Chill stacks to not go through Guard as well. Do pray tell how Cws are supposed to be able to have a chance against you in PvP?

The only Cw that you will really struggle with is Oppressor, and thats because of how quickly their chill stacks get applied. Thamaturges still have to channel RoF for 4 seconds to free you in place. You want to know how to beat Cws? Continual Pressure. All you need to do, is land 1 stun, or force them to stop casting and the chill stacks fall off.

For 1v1s, thats nice and easy on a node. Your close, and all your gap closers will work. Open world is a completely different ball game, and the Cw will be able to create distance, which realisitically you will struggle to close.

Team fights in competitive pvp. Everyone focuses the Cw first anyway...

gentlemancrush · September 2014

There are actually 2 problems here we are looking at.

Firstly, Guardian Block is not always blocking CC that comes in from the front like it is supposed to, so we are looking at that independent of Wizard CC potential.

Secondly, Wizards are getting a little *too* much chain CC potential. Given this we are looking at adding a duration after being frozen where you are immune to Chill Stacks. This duration will be related to how long you are controlled for. This will mean landing a successful Shatter Strike on the target will give them a little longer safe time before they can be controlled again.

The first iteration we are looking at is after being frozen from chill you will be immune to Chill stacks for 3 seconds after the freeze would have ended (before any strength and resistance get involved). After a successful shatter strike you will be immune for 3 seconds on players and 5 seconds on critters. This means that wizards can lock down a large number of foes but cannot do it forever. It is important to note that multiple wizards will SHARE this lockout, so it cannot be subverted by stacking more wizards.

We want controlling foes to be a powerful utility without totally disabling gameplay for everyone else.

Thank you for your continued feedback!

Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer

jmikez · September 2014

its gona get worse for everyone complaining bout CW chill stacks, cuz 1 of the legendary weapons for cw makes chill stacking even faster. 2x faster than before.

letojarred1 · September 2014

oh god please only nerf the pvp side.
I gave up playing on pvp due to high latency and repetitiveness of the mode, do not nerf the pve side too.

wixxgs1cht · September 2014

gentlemancrush wrote: »

The first iteration we are looking at is after being frozen from chill you will be immune to Chill stacks for 3 seconds after the freeze would have ended (before any strength and resistance get involved). After a successful shatter strike you will be immune for 3 seconds on players and 5 seconds on critters. This means that wizards can lock down a large number of foes but cannot do it forever. It is important to note that multiple wizards will SHARE this lockout, so it cannot be subverted by stacking more wizards.

As I don't PVP anymore, keep in mind that the following lines will be PVE only.

As of now, freeze is broken OP, on that we all can agree. However, implementing a 5 (!) second immunity to freezing seems a bit too much. Given the addfest that is going on in most of the dungeons, a single CW will struggle to keep the adds in check with such a huge time frame of severely reduced CC-ability. This might again lead to what we witnessed so often with the last "nerfs" - people will start stacking CWs again/even more. So I'd suggest to adjust other powers if you plan to really implement that 5 second immunity. For example increasing the target cap on singularity comes to mind (why was it tuned down in the first place?) or increased effectiveness of steal time. This could be an increased target cap to not affect PVP whatsoever.

ayroux · September 2014

wixxgs1cht wrote: »

As I don't PVP anymore, keep in mind that the following lines will be PVE only.

As of now, freeze is broken OP, on that we all can agree. However, implementing a 5 (!) second immunity to freezing seems a bit too much. Given the addfest that is going on in most of the dungeons, a single CW will struggle to keep the adds in check with such a huge time frame of severely reduced CC-ability. This might again lead to what we witnessed so often with the last "nerfs" - people will start stacking CWs again/even more. So I'd suggest to adjust other powers if you plan to really implement that 5 second immunity. For example increasing the target cap on singularity comes to mind (why was it tuned down in the first place?) or increased effectiveness of steal time. This could be an increased target cap to not affect PVP whatsoever.

These are all VERY good points IMO. Im not always in favor of something like this but maybe it makes sense to have the "lockout" 3 seconds BOTH for PVP and PVE and look at the above.

Part of the issue I think is that if you lessen CW Control, PVE will REQUIRE more CWs. If a CW can control TOO easily, however, it removes the need for a "tank" and sometimes even a "healer".

For these reasons CWs need an appropriate level of control to feel powerful HOWEVER there does need to be "Gaps" in control to REQUIRE "tanks and healers" without the ability to "fill" those gaps with more CWs.

These reasons why I think MORE control immune mobs are needed, thus creating an actual need for a Tank. Then those mobs NEED to hit incredibly hard, creating the NEED for a Healer to keep the tank up. Creating that perfect cycle.

Basically:
CW controls all the "little" adds effectively AND can adequately DPS them down.
GF TANKS the non-controllable adds and focuses his attention on the hard single hitting targets that can WIPE a group
DC focuses on damage mitigation for the group as well as healing to keep the CW/GF Alive + other DPS.

You then have classes that fill multiple DPS roles.

valencay · September 2014

gentlemancrush wrote: »

After a successful shatter strike you will be immune for 3 seconds on players and 5 seconds on critters.

just a little clarification, does that mean that if i shatter an enemy for 5 second (oppressor capstone) when shatter ends they are immune for 5 second before chill start to stack again? so for a 5 second shatter i then have a 8 second gap before shatter kicks in again? please consider this change for thauma and renegade cw's because i specced into oppressor to be able to run dg's in a party where i am the only cw and with this change i couldn't help them anymore. thauma's have dps, let oppressors have control

Not asking for any nerfs! but freeze is getting old!

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