Should I really get the learned spellcaster feat instead of the area damage feats? Its +5% damage versus +15%
Currently it's debated if either of them works properly. The AoE Feat is known not to work for several spells that are actually AoE.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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grimfell83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
Any recomendations on pets? Currently using Stone of Ioulune (spelling?) and also whats best items to put on said pet would be greatly appreciated advice from one of you more experienced guys to save myself tons of time and money playing around with different things
Any recomendations on pets? Currently using Stone of Ioulune (spelling?) and also whats best items to put on said pet would be greatly appreciated advice from one of you more experienced guys to save myself tons of time and money playing around with different things
A cat is the best companion, gives you stats. For items, just get him the best ones you can find/afford.
Just wanted to thank you for the guide as I used it for the most part (changed some of the powers slightly) levelling my second wizard and I was always top damage in the instances I did and had no troubles levelling at all (including towards the end where I struggled with my first wizard). Used an ioun stone of allure instead of the cleric this time and rarely had to buy potions.
What stats do you stack offensively? Power? Crit? Armor Pen? Recovery? Or what do I stack? As well as enchantments.
Thanks!
From the first section:
Attributes: Int > Cha > Wis
Stats: Power > Crit > Recovery
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mithon81Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited May 2013
Thanks for a nice guide, and a lot of effort put into the thread as a whole runicfi!
I don't know why people advocating more control over more damage fail to see how you can slot powers according to the current needs, and not a single one has anything to say when you ask how they get more control than a Thaumaturge with a Renegade. Must be frustrating...
The ability to swap out powers is kind of essential, and reading a spec as "uses this exact set of abilities in every encounter" is a rather silly way to read specs/guides as (hopefully) nobody plays that way...
To me the dilemma between Thaum and Ren is like this: Will [Snap Freeze + Elemental Empowerment + Assailing Force] give more of a dps boost to me and my party than [Phantasmal Destruction + Masterful Arcane Theft + Chaos Magic]? To me, this choice has nothing to do with my ability to control, but everything to do with dps performance. I doubt we can get a clear answer to that untill somebody runs a few parses with working ACT on dummies with party for some empiric evidence. Untill then it's up to us all to try them and get a feel for what feels like more damage.
The reports of feats not working and unclear descriptions of others makes it rather hard to choose. And Chaos Magic either not working at all or only proccing on crits is pulling me towards the Thaum choice tbh. Though I wish there was something else to choose than Snap Freeze. Strange to make a feat that's designed to force you to use half your powers sparringly to get an effect. Another reason why I like Thaum is not having Masterful Arcane Theft. That feat practically forces me to always use Steal Time and Ray of Enfeeblement, and I'd rather have more generic feats that allow me to pick my encounter powers more freely (based on what encounter I'm going into).
Enough with the comments. I also have a question:
We have diminishing returns (DR) on ratings, so I'm looking at Prestidigation and I'm thinking that this must be great while your DR is low due to having bad gear. However the better the gear you have the lower the actual damage increase you and your party members will be from having this. At first I was thinking I would go Human to be able to afford this, but the more I think on it I'd rather be a thiefling and not care about this feat. Am I seeing this correctly, or am I messing up now?
Thanks for a nice guide, and a lot of effort put into the thread as a whole runicfi!
I don't know why people advocating more control over more damage fail to see how you can slot powers according to the current needs, and not a single one has anything to say when you ask how they get more control than a Thaumaturge with a Renegade. Must be frustrating...
Yep.
Thanks for the comments and recognition. I'm glad to have contributed.
I remember being level 10 and spending hours brainstormed at this feat tree, trying to choose a decent way to go while i knew little to none about the CW.This thread saved me , made my exp process easier and i am currently farming epics very decently and relaxed , always at the top on the dps list and only outplayed by a couple of CW's so far that propably are feated the same as you but just with better gear or more experience.
If that thread hadn't come to my attention i'd most likely would have quited the game , because respeccing multiple times with the current costs is a total nightmare.
Thanks again , there are still a tone of questions that mostly need answers from game engineers , but from what i've seen so far , your guide is certainly one of the best ways to go.
PS. Without people like you , few would play games with limited advanced character information like this one.
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realskaavMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited May 2013
Hi, rly nice Guide, only thing I'd argue with is Crit > Recovery, firstly because Crit dimnishes greatly at values above 2k, secondly because of our passive which renders Crit useless during its uptime.
I prefer stacking Power and Recovery to equal amounts, no Focus on Crit at all, but thats just my preference
For fights that require more Control I use Shield for fast AP gain, otherwise i run the same spells.
I'm also stacking power and recovery and loving the damage and lower cooldowns. (i'm still a lv 46 CW tho.) and yes, i'm speccing thaumaturgy for it's higher damage.
Hi! Ty for your guide, its is very nice and helpful.
I get along with your point of view about the control wizard and i try to build a wizard with a lot of damage. I've played for a short time on Neverwinter but i have still some questions about your build.
_You have a great number of aoe spells. Don't you think it would be more useful to use your heroic points in both "focused wizardry" and "Arcane mastery" rather than in "Spellcaster".
_Is it not paradoxical to use conduit of ice and to take "Snap Freeze" which make you deal more damage to foes who are not affected by chill? Conduit of ice need to be used on foes affected by chill to be efficient. It is the lonely froze spell which really need to be combined with other frost spells. So, wouldn't it be more efficient to take sudden storm in place of conduit of ice? (although you will make "assailing force" useless?).
_Regarding your spells, don't you think you could benefit a lot from "Masterful Arcane Theft" from the renegade Tree?
I hope you could answer to my questions and i'm sorry for my possible mistakes
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sabekkMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Yeah m8 some tips about gear and enchant's would be nice, what gear do you have right now and is this a BiS or you trying to get something else ? is the Drake Seal Gear a BiS ?
Without Evocation:
Chill Strike untabbed: 2554-2962
Chill Strike tabbed: 2951-3423
(3423-2962)/2962 = 0.1556~ or 15.56%. So yes, both AOE feats do infact worth with tabbed chill strike.
With Evocation:
Chill Strike tabbed: 3345-3882
(3882-3345)/2962 = 0.155~ or 15.5%. Once again, Evocation works as well.
As far as I can tell, the AOE feats + evocation work with:
Tabbed chill strike
Steal Time
Shield (explosion)
Ice Storm (almost hits as hard as Ice Knife, 6371-7396 vs 7193-8349)
I almost always use those 3 skills in dungeons (not ice storm), so I don't feel that the 6 feat points I invested in them were wasted.
From non-crit/non combat advantage tests on dummies (Snap Freeze):
untabbed chill strike tooltip: 2554-2962
untabbed chill strike does roughly 2627-2894 on chilled targets
untabbed chill strike does roughly 3043-3434 on unchilled targets
tabbed chill strike tooltip (both aoe feats + evocation): 3345-3882
tabbed chill strike does roughly 3397-3882 on chilled/unchilled targets (there was an occasional spike that pushed it to 3900-4300 on non-chilled targets).
Seems like Snap Freeze works fine with chill strike untabbed, but somehow has bugs when it goes into tab.
I run a thaumaturge build as well, and while I don't any experience with T2 dungeons, I can say that I defintely do not lose out in terms of T1 total damage (my GS is only at 8300 and I'm not particularly motivated to go for more). Remember, on top of conduit being AOE mitigation reduction, casting any of your arcane encounters will grant your ENTIRE party access to a free -10% def debuff for 4 seconds. This includes the commonly used Shield/Steal Time/ROE, so renegade builds forget that when partying with a thaumaturge mage and "winning" them in total damage done, it would in part be due to the fact that the thaumaturge mage is providing mitigation/def reduction for the entire party as well.
The only "party friendly/boosting" aspect you would get from a renegade build is from the mitigation reduction/damage increase proc from Chaos Magic, which is very much unreliable compared to what a thaumaturge build can offer to the group.
In PVP the perfomance of the build is great. Using ROE gets you whatever damage boost you would normally get (I heard its about 25% damage increase/mitigation reduction) ON TOP of the 10% def debuff from Elemental Empowerment, as well as Chill Strike/Conduit dealing 30% of your weapon's damage as DOT plus the extra 15% mitigation reduction from Conduit.
With just x1 ROE + conduit, I've managed to score 8-9k crits with single target chill strike, and I have no issues soloing almost any class without Dailies. Well played GWFs and GFs are quite unbeatable though, with their stun/knockdown combo and block/CC immunity. Zero issues with taking down a full HP DC on astral shield without Ice Knife too.
I remember being level 10 and spending hours brainstormed at this feat tree, trying to choose a decent way to go while i knew little to none about the CW.This thread saved me , made my exp process easier and i am currently farming epics very decently and relaxed , always at the top on the dps list and only outplayed by a couple of CW's so far that propably are feated the same as you but just with better gear or more experience.
If that thread hadn't come to my attention i'd most likely would have quited the game , because respeccing multiple times with the current costs is a total nightmare.
Thanks again , there are still a tone of questions that mostly need answers from game engineers , but from what i've seen so far , your guide is certainly one of the best ways to go.
PS. Without people like you , few would play games with limited advanced character information like this one.
Wow, this is the nicest thing I've been told in the internet.
Hi! Ty for your guide, its is very nice and helpful.
_You have a great number of aoe spells. Don't you think it would be more useful to use your heroic points in both "focused wizardry" and "Arcane mastery" rather than in "Spellcaster".
_Is it not paradoxical to use conduit of ice and to take "Snap Freeze" which make you deal more damage to foes who are not affected by chill? Conduit of ice need to be used on foes affected by chill to be efficient. It is the lonely froze spell which really need to be combined with other frost spells. So, wouldn't it be more efficient to take sudden storm in place of conduit of ice? (although you will make "assailing force" useless?).
Do you mean Arcane Enhancement by "Arcane Mastery"?
Most of these points have been discussed in this thread, some multiple times. It's grown to be a big read though, I guess I should add some sort of FAQ. The AoE damage feats currently don't affect all AoE abilities, they're bugged. Sudden Storm is bugged, it doesn't do the damage it's supposed to do.
Snap Freeze affects Chill Strike, if you haven't chilled the target previously. It seems to me the damage is applied before the target gets chilled by Chill Strike, I tested with and without Snap Freeze and there was a clear difference, I'm pretty sure. Tabbed Chill Strike is the biggest source of Encounter damage regardless of anything else. Conduit of Ice doesn't stack Chill, but reduces mitigation when Feated. Hence, Ray of Enfeeble > Conduit of Ice for massive damage increase on target, then Chill Strike ( which will should be affected by Snap Freeze, because the target isn't chilled before it hits. ) The increased damage from chill on Conduit in this build is somewhat irrelevant. The main use is the reduction of mitigation. Bosses don't get chilled anyways.
Yeah m8 some tips about gear and enchant's would be nice, what gear do you have right now and is this a BiS or you trying to get something else ? is the Drake Seal Gear a BiS ?
This is mostly a build guide, I'm not that much into delving into gearing deeply. I just get items that grant me more stats than my previous item, the stats I need, or look for item sets that grant them. One obvious trick is getting 2 items from Fatebender and whatever the other Power granting set was, to get the 2-set +400 Power bonus twice for a total of 800 Power. For me currently all the Drake Seal items are downgrades. I have a lot of non-set T2 items from vaurious dungeons, such as the Arcane Overseers Tunic ( I think that's what it was called. )
This includes the commonly used Shield/Steal Time/ROE, so renegade builds forget that when partying with a thaumaturge mage and "winning" them in total damage done, it would in part be due to the fact that the thaumaturge mage is providing mitigation/def reduction for the entire party as well.
The only "party friendly/boosting" aspect you would get from a renegade build is from the mitigation reduction/damage increase proc from Chaos Magic, which is very much unreliable compared to what a thaumaturge build can offer to the group.
In PVP the perfomance of the build is great. Using ROE gets you whatever damage boost you would normally get (I heard its about 25% damage increase/mitigation reduction) ON TOP of the 10% def debuff from Elemental Empowerment, as well as Chill Strike/Conduit dealing 30% of your weapon's damage as DOT plus the extra 15% mitigation reduction from Conduit.
With just x1 ROE + conduit, I've managed to score 8-9k crits with single target chill strike, and I have no issues soloing almost any class without Dailies. Well played GWFs and GFs are quite unbeatable though, with their stun/knockdown combo and block/CC immunity. Zero issues with taking down a full HP DC on astral shield without Ice Knife too.
The build gets my PvP dailies just fine indeed, and usually I'm on top of the scoreboard. Regarding the AOE feats, I actually have them specced currently, but I won't add them to the build before some concrete info is gotten of how they function. Your findings are however very useful, will have to look at them again when I have more time.
Hey guys, I wonder if anyone has opinions on frozen power transfer- Chilling Cloud now grants 1/2/3/4/5% bonus damage for every target you strike with its third strike. (This bonus lasts for 8 seconds and is reset if you cast the third strike of chilling Cloud again)
Looks like the aoe on cc can grant 5% extra damage per target? Assuming the usual 7 target aoe limit, does this mean potentially up to 35% boost? Plus the cc debuff to reduce damage taken means this seem really worth the 5 points if it affects the whole party.
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qryticalMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Hey guys, I wonder if anyone has opinions on frozen power transfer- Chilling Cloud now grants 1/2/3/4/5% bonus damage for every target you strike with its third strike. (This bonus lasts for 8 seconds and is reset if you cast the third strike of chilling Cloud again)
Looks like the aoe on cc can grant 5% extra damage per target? Assuming the usual 7 target aoe limit, does this mean potentially up to 35% boost? Plus the cc debuff to reduce damage taken means this seem really worth the 5 points if it affects the whole party.
The highest I've been able to stack is 5 stacks. My biggest pet peeve with it is it's radius. It's so tiny that to reliably hit more than 2 people with it you have to use it during Singularity.
endless avalanche is not garbage the dmg it does trumps chilling strike by quite a bit but the cool down is too long. It appears yet again that the mechanics to reduce the cool down from upgrades doesnt work... go figure and half of all the feats etc dont work on all the classes. And yes maelstorm of chaos is ***. and icy ter. is ***. Shield should be a must always it provides significant dmg reduction and good dps and GREAT action point gain. When u can pop shield and get 50%+ daily power it becomes a must skill.
I have been playing around with Power/armor pen combo. Think this is plausible?
Conflicting reports; some say it can diminish below 0 and others say it can't. Suffice to say that in a group setting if it cannot be reduced below 0 mitigation then armor pen is useless since everyone and their mother will be tossing in debuffs. That being said the average mitigation seems to be around 20% .
I have been going by this guide my entire time playing NW and it has been very helpful. I am just wonder about what armor sets are the best. I have seen most people just doing 2 pieces of 2 seperate sets for the +400/450 bonus in power/crit/recovery, but I want to know what the best Orb is as well as the two best armor sets for it.
Thanks!
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Conflicting reports; some say it can diminish below 0 and others say it can't. Suffice to say that in a group setting if it cannot be reduced below 0 mitigation then armor pen is useless since everyone and their mother will be tossing in debuffs. That being said the average mitigation seems to be around 20% .
Armor pen and debuffs are calculated separately when attacking. It first checks your ARP against their defenses, then applies debuffs, and lastly calculates the damage. Meaning it is good to have ARP.
I've yet to hit the point where it would go negative, but understand that most mobs sit at 22% damage resistance and that it will not go below that point.
Comments
Currently it's debated if either of them works properly. The AoE Feat is known not to work for several spells that are actually AoE.
A cat is the best companion, gives you stats. For items, just get him the best ones you can find/afford.
Thanks!
From the first section:
Attributes: Int > Cha > Wis
Stats: Power > Crit > Recovery
I don't know why people advocating more control over more damage fail to see how you can slot powers according to the current needs, and not a single one has anything to say when you ask how they get more control than a Thaumaturge with a Renegade. Must be frustrating...
The ability to swap out powers is kind of essential, and reading a spec as "uses this exact set of abilities in every encounter" is a rather silly way to read specs/guides as (hopefully) nobody plays that way...
To me the dilemma between Thaum and Ren is like this: Will [Snap Freeze + Elemental Empowerment + Assailing Force] give more of a dps boost to me and my party than [Phantasmal Destruction + Masterful Arcane Theft + Chaos Magic]? To me, this choice has nothing to do with my ability to control, but everything to do with dps performance. I doubt we can get a clear answer to that untill somebody runs a few parses with working ACT on dummies with party for some empiric evidence. Untill then it's up to us all to try them and get a feel for what feels like more damage.
The reports of feats not working and unclear descriptions of others makes it rather hard to choose. And Chaos Magic either not working at all or only proccing on crits is pulling me towards the Thaum choice tbh. Though I wish there was something else to choose than Snap Freeze. Strange to make a feat that's designed to force you to use half your powers sparringly to get an effect. Another reason why I like Thaum is not having Masterful Arcane Theft. That feat practically forces me to always use Steal Time and Ray of Enfeeblement, and I'd rather have more generic feats that allow me to pick my encounter powers more freely (based on what encounter I'm going into).
Enough with the comments. I also have a question:
We have diminishing returns (DR) on ratings, so I'm looking at Prestidigation and I'm thinking that this must be great while your DR is low due to having bad gear. However the better the gear you have the lower the actual damage increase you and your party members will be from having this. At first I was thinking I would go Human to be able to afford this, but the more I think on it I'd rather be a thiefling and not care about this feat. Am I seeing this correctly, or am I messing up now?
Yep.
Thanks for the comments and recognition. I'm glad to have contributed.
You really saved my cyber-life.
I remember being level 10 and spending hours brainstormed at this feat tree, trying to choose a decent way to go while i knew little to none about the CW.This thread saved me , made my exp process easier and i am currently farming epics very decently and relaxed , always at the top on the dps list and only outplayed by a couple of CW's so far that propably are feated the same as you but just with better gear or more experience.
If that thread hadn't come to my attention i'd most likely would have quited the game , because respeccing multiple times with the current costs is a total nightmare.
Thanks again , there are still a tone of questions that mostly need answers from game engineers , but from what i've seen so far , your guide is certainly one of the best ways to go.
PS. Without people like you , few would play games with limited advanced character information like this one.
I prefer stacking Power and Recovery to equal amounts, no Focus on Crit at all, but thats just my preference
For fights that require more Control I use Shield for fast AP gain, otherwise i run the same spells.
I want this class in NW.
I get along with your point of view about the control wizard and i try to build a wizard with a lot of damage. I've played for a short time on Neverwinter but i have still some questions about your build.
_You have a great number of aoe spells. Don't you think it would be more useful to use your heroic points in both "focused wizardry" and "Arcane mastery" rather than in "Spellcaster".
_Is it not paradoxical to use conduit of ice and to take "Snap Freeze" which make you deal more damage to foes who are not affected by chill? Conduit of ice need to be used on foes affected by chill to be efficient. It is the lonely froze spell which really need to be combined with other frost spells. So, wouldn't it be more efficient to take sudden storm in place of conduit of ice? (although you will make "assailing force" useless?).
_Regarding your spells, don't you think you could benefit a lot from "Masterful Arcane Theft" from the renegade Tree?
I hope you could answer to my questions and i'm sorry for my possible mistakes
Though I don't think posting screens on anything proves jack, but w/e.
He mentioned pretty clearly this is a PVE build, and since it's damage based then screenshots of damage logs are kinda relevant.
Previous guilds: Double Deviants, Orum, Sandwitches, Dragon Order of Arcanix and many many more.
Hope I find some old friends!
Without Evocation:
Chill Strike untabbed: 2554-2962
Chill Strike tabbed: 2951-3423
(3423-2962)/2962 = 0.1556~ or 15.56%. So yes, both AOE feats do infact worth with tabbed chill strike.
With Evocation:
Chill Strike tabbed: 3345-3882
(3882-3345)/2962 = 0.155~ or 15.5%. Once again, Evocation works as well.
As far as I can tell, the AOE feats + evocation work with:
Tabbed chill strike
Steal Time
Shield (explosion)
Ice Storm (almost hits as hard as Ice Knife, 6371-7396 vs 7193-8349)
I almost always use those 3 skills in dungeons (not ice storm), so I don't feel that the 6 feat points I invested in them were wasted.
From non-crit/non combat advantage tests on dummies (Snap Freeze):
untabbed chill strike tooltip: 2554-2962
untabbed chill strike does roughly 2627-2894 on chilled targets
untabbed chill strike does roughly 3043-3434 on unchilled targets
tabbed chill strike tooltip (both aoe feats + evocation): 3345-3882
tabbed chill strike does roughly 3397-3882 on chilled/unchilled targets (there was an occasional spike that pushed it to 3900-4300 on non-chilled targets).
Seems like Snap Freeze works fine with chill strike untabbed, but somehow has bugs when it goes into tab.
I run a thaumaturge build as well, and while I don't any experience with T2 dungeons, I can say that I defintely do not lose out in terms of T1 total damage (my GS is only at 8300 and I'm not particularly motivated to go for more). Remember, on top of conduit being AOE mitigation reduction, casting any of your arcane encounters will grant your ENTIRE party access to a free -10% def debuff for 4 seconds. This includes the commonly used Shield/Steal Time/ROE, so renegade builds forget that when partying with a thaumaturge mage and "winning" them in total damage done, it would in part be due to the fact that the thaumaturge mage is providing mitigation/def reduction for the entire party as well.
The only "party friendly/boosting" aspect you would get from a renegade build is from the mitigation reduction/damage increase proc from Chaos Magic, which is very much unreliable compared to what a thaumaturge build can offer to the group.
In PVP the perfomance of the build is great. Using ROE gets you whatever damage boost you would normally get (I heard its about 25% damage increase/mitigation reduction) ON TOP of the 10% def debuff from Elemental Empowerment, as well as Chill Strike/Conduit dealing 30% of your weapon's damage as DOT plus the extra 15% mitigation reduction from Conduit.
With just x1 ROE + conduit, I've managed to score 8-9k crits with single target chill strike, and I have no issues soloing almost any class without Dailies. Well played GWFs and GFs are quite unbeatable though, with their stun/knockdown combo and block/CC immunity. Zero issues with taking down a full HP DC on astral shield without Ice Knife too.
Wow, this is the nicest thing I've been told in the internet.
Do you mean Arcane Enhancement by "Arcane Mastery"?
Most of these points have been discussed in this thread, some multiple times. It's grown to be a big read though, I guess I should add some sort of FAQ. The AoE damage feats currently don't affect all AoE abilities, they're bugged. Sudden Storm is bugged, it doesn't do the damage it's supposed to do.
Snap Freeze affects Chill Strike, if you haven't chilled the target previously. It seems to me the damage is applied before the target gets chilled by Chill Strike, I tested with and without Snap Freeze and there was a clear difference, I'm pretty sure. Tabbed Chill Strike is the biggest source of Encounter damage regardless of anything else. Conduit of Ice doesn't stack Chill, but reduces mitigation when Feated. Hence, Ray of Enfeeble > Conduit of Ice for massive damage increase on target, then Chill Strike ( which will should be affected by Snap Freeze, because the target isn't chilled before it hits. ) The increased damage from chill on Conduit in this build is somewhat irrelevant. The main use is the reduction of mitigation. Bosses don't get chilled anyways.
It's so deep in the tree that then I'd be Renegade. It's one of the must have Feats when specced Renegade, though.
This is mostly a build guide, I'm not that much into delving into gearing deeply. I just get items that grant me more stats than my previous item, the stats I need, or look for item sets that grant them. One obvious trick is getting 2 items from Fatebender and whatever the other Power granting set was, to get the 2-set +400 Power bonus twice for a total of 800 Power. For me currently all the Drake Seal items are downgrades. I have a lot of non-set T2 items from vaurious dungeons, such as the Arcane Overseers Tunic ( I think that's what it was called. )
The build gets my PvP dailies just fine indeed, and usually I'm on top of the scoreboard. Regarding the AOE feats, I actually have them specced currently, but I won't add them to the build before some concrete info is gotten of how they function. Your findings are however very useful, will have to look at them again when I have more time.
Looks like the aoe on cc can grant 5% extra damage per target? Assuming the usual 7 target aoe limit, does this mean potentially up to 35% boost? Plus the cc debuff to reduce damage taken means this seem really worth the 5 points if it affects the whole party.
The highest I've been able to stack is 5 stacks. My biggest pet peeve with it is it's radius. It's so tiny that to reliably hit more than 2 people with it you have to use it during Singularity.
Conflicting reports; some say it can diminish below 0 and others say it can't. Suffice to say that in a group setting if it cannot be reduced below 0 mitigation then armor pen is useless since everyone and their mother will be tossing in debuffs. That being said the average mitigation seems to be around 20% .
Thanks!
Armor pen and debuffs are calculated separately when attacking. It first checks your ARP against their defenses, then applies debuffs, and lastly calculates the damage. Meaning it is good to have ARP.
I've yet to hit the point where it would go negative, but understand that most mobs sit at 22% damage resistance and that it will not go below that point.