I personally have no desire to do PVP. I can't see anything in game now, or potentially in the future to incentivize me to do PVP. As far as I am concerned if it makes the game healthier overall, and reduces the number of issues with class balancing making things fubar in PVE, then I'm all for letting PVP die.
Having said that, I know there are people the enjoy PVP very much. Any fixes that get done for class balance for PVP, must in absolutely no way affect classes for PVE. Maybe give everyone another loadout specifically for PVP. Just don't start monkeying around with class balance to try and balance the classes for PVP, and then let it break PVE.
PVE is why I came to play Neverwinter in the first place, and if it gets royally fubared trying to fix PVP, I ain't gonna be happy.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Any game system that can't be touched at least annually should just be removed from the game. Lets see what there is bandwidth to actually maintain and then we can decide if what's left is a game we wish to play. loot tables and stores should be evaluated and addressed every module. If loot tables and stores can not be evaluated at least every mod, then they should be simplified. updating loot tables and stores every 2-3 years, only updating stores after they are complete trash is just a waste of everyone's time. Lets get this game down to something that we actually have the support for.
One advice for you and similar players.. If you don't use, or play x game content, does not mean it should be removed from game. There is no need to come in pvp forum or here in this CDP and try tell devs to remove this game system/element just cuz you don't like or don't do pvp.
This is one if not the main reason why this game in such problematic situation. Too many players think that game runs arround them only. When players start throwing suggestion to shape game for their needs only, then game can't be fixed.
Remember, you are just another player, like me and rest of community. Game do not run arround us, we are simply part of it.
Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Thank you all for your patience as the team too the time to discuss all the feedback and put together a comprehensive write-up.
Issues Raised in CDP:
Seasoned veterans pub-stomping newcomers who are not equipped with Best in Slot gear
A desire for separate PvP ability balance and gear that can be used
Complaints about artifacts and Mount Powers.
Pay to Win Complaints
More game Modes requested: Deathmatch, Capture the Flag
Solo Queue and Group Queuing
Rewards from playing PvP are bad outside of the season rewards, and do not help a player get better gear for PvP
Matchmaking does not take class into effect. It will sometimes create a team of only healers and tanks with no DPS, or put a bunch of DPS without any tanks.
Respawn timers need some looking into. It feels random.
Overall Problem:
Our current PvP approach doesn’t work for the majority of our audience which results in low PvP populations. Some of the concerns raised in the CDP are a direct result of this. For example, our PvP queues already try to match players by similar item levels, but it will only try that for a certain amount of time before matching together a random group. In the past this timer was longer, but due to the PvP community being small even with that longer delay we got the same imbalanced matches so we shortened the timer to reduce those waits.
This in turn results in newer players being put into matches with highly geared PvP veterans which is not a good experience. That bad experience makes those new players decide PvP isn’t as fun as they’d hoped it would be and they move on.
Even more geared and skilled players still struggle at times as they aren’t at the very top of how strongly they can be geared. This creates the call that PvP is “Pay to Win”. While we don’t feel that is quite an accurate statement, we do understand where the frustration is coming from.
One last side note since respawn timers came up. Those are a rolling respawn which means they aren’t your personal respawn timer but are instead your team’s. This is so that instead of players respawning one by one and trying to get back in the fight before others die, the team members who are dead can spawn together and do a coordinated attack. We should do a better job calling this out and displaying it for players.
Potential Solution:
Even before we had made April Fowl’s we had discussed moving PvP to a style of preset characters. It was an idea we would discuss on and off over time as we weren’t sure if it was the right move to make. During that time, we continued to grow the PvP audience by working on PvP balance, improving rewards, making a better campaign, and adding PvP Seasons.
While each of these steps would result in short term growth of PvP, it wouldn’t take long for the number of players participating in PvP to drop back down to low levels.
That fact combined with the strong positive reaction to April Fowls PvP has renewed our interest in approaching PvP in a new way with preset characters. Here is a rough outline of how that would work and how we might be able to roll it out.
Stages:
Alpha: Our first stage of development would be a simplified version of this concept that we would release in an Alpha state. This means it wouldn’t have all of the functionality and polish but would have the core gameplay for early feedback.
Alpha would have the following items:
The existing domination maps would now have a contact in the starting area which players use to choose their character.
We would strive to make 11 preset characters:
1 Henchman – the basic class you spawn in with that is weak. This is just to make sure players are not themselves and that they know to pick a real class before jumping into the action
7 Standard – these are different monsters/characters from Neverwinter that are free for all players to use
3 Premium – To make sure PvP doesn’t feel pay to win at all, we are going to approach it with the goal of having premium
characters/premium costumes instead of paying to have better gear. This is where more iconic Neverwinter characters would show up such as: Knox, Celeste, Makos. These shouldn’t give any statistical advantage; they are simply a different option and play style.
These preset characters would have their stats all set to fit their role/function and would have one set of powers on the power tray – 3 encounters, 2 dailies, 2 at wills.
That is all the Alpha build would have. This allows players to try out the new PvP right away and start giving feedback.
Beta: This stage is more about putting the polish on the existing functionality we’ve built, providing more class options to keep PvP fresh and the matches more varied. We would want to create the first aspects of progression (such as a campaign system or boon tree system). What the progression system is specifically will depend on both feedback and how we can leverage our existing tech.
Official: This is the stage where we call the feature fully released. For this stage we should add at least one new PvP match type. Either something like capture the flag, or a more involved match where a bigger group of players are in the match and there are a mix of PvP and PvE objectives to allow a wider range of players to participate. By this stage we should have our progression system and UI setups finalized.
Future: Beyond the official release we will want to continue to add new classes and new costumes for existing classes. If PvP is proving to be particularly popular then we should continue to add a few different game modes and potentially bring back competitive seasons with a 3v3 death match smaller map style.
All of this is a proposal and can change in many ways. None of the call outs in this feature are a guarantee in any form or something we are locked into at this point.
Thank you to everyone who participated in the PvP CDP.
Btw, a quick note: Maybe add Glory multiplier as invoke bonus next to AD so it creates an incentive to daily PvP or at last generates an allure by seeing having 100k +50% Glory multiplier slowly build up while a new player potentially gears up in PvE.
I want to play sisters of Strahd or maybe Drufi. This sounds cool, especially if their in game powers are incorporated. I do hope there is still a place for the current pvp style, where your actual character is used and can still become OP, just not mixed with the proposed system. Unless people could use their pve toon to challenge me as a boss using boss mechanics.
This is bad, the wheels in my head are spinning.
Froger - Barbarian - Original Main - The Freak Core - Xbone Jade - Cleric - Healer Main - The Freak Core - Xbone Magnus - Fighter - Tank for queues - The Freak Core - Xbone Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone Bardholomew - Bard - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone Sirona - Cleric - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
I don't want the existing system where we fight eachother as the characters we built ourselves to be taken out of the game entirely, I like being able to play my own character and I as much as I liked chicken PVP, I think a system like that is going to be too simple and likely wouldn't require much skill to master, it would be fun for a little while but eventually this would destroy my drive to keep playing PVP most likely. This is one of the few things that could get me to quit this game if I'm being perfectly honest here.
However, I did like chicken PVP and good chance this system will allow for more premades. Regular premades are something me and many other PVP players really miss and want back. The gear gap being taken out of the equation is healthyer for this game's PVP overall and will appeal to both new players and many in the veteran crowd as well. This type of PVP will likely be very popular if designed well and lets you earn good rewards.
So I will vouge for this type of PVP to be introduced on the condition that the existing option to fight eachother as our own characters is left intact.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
I just was informed by Cryptic-Ridi that the old PVP system isn't going to be scrapped when this new heroes PVP gets introduced. We're good now XD.
I will mention, the way that CDP post is written made it look like the old PVP system is getting scrapped. I wasn't only person who had that take, everyone I saw talking about it today before I heard about it was saying same thing. @nitocris83 You should update that CDP post to clarify that this proposal isn't intended to replace the existing system where we fight eachother with the characters we made.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited June 2020
What about the reward structure and the pvp store where is that ?
What about additional loot drops weapons and items that are pvp specific where is that in the new pvp loot table
Where are there any incentives in this cdp to play the existing pvp maps with your own character including the 10 v 10 ones?
I really wonder what the pvp proposal looked like before it got influenced by this chicken pvp : D
There are many typos/ mistakes in this "official" proposal.. I mean the first line already has a mistake in it... I am glad the team "too" the time to discuss this lol also its ..Pug stomping (pick up group) . .. not Pub It would be nice to know the team reviewing this can relate and actually know what "Pug" stomping is especially for a pvp cdp ... : D
also in the proposal it is written "These preset characters would have their stats all set to fit their role/function and would have one set of powers on the power tray – 3 encounters, 2 dailies, 2 at wills."
Devs I think you are missing a trick by not utilizing the potion tray slots for clickies buff consumables.. gained from pvp etc or even unique buffs/ powers abilities etc / signature moves relating to the custom class you are trying to create .. what will be happening to the potion tray slots ..?
i also think you are missing a trick by not having a customized character options with a point allocation buy in system for certain power or abilities / load outs etc ..
how does this stop or prevent flavor of the month from happening with these custom load outs characters , what is the max amount of the same class allowed per match 2 ?
and if you dont release custom tweaks / patches and updates every month or so for these new custom modes and characters you will hamster pvp again ..balance concerns for characters cant go on for months or years unaddressed
YES. YES. YES. YES. YES. YES. This is exactly what will help PvP grow. So many non PvP players had a GREAT time w chicken pvp. It was balanced...tactical...AWESOME. Many new players and non pvp players had an absolute blast. Getting massacred because gear difference is ridiculous...getting massacred in a balanced mode will be more fair and give opportunity to grow as a pvp player as they learn. Please work hard on this. DCUO is the only other mmo i played that has pvp like this. It was called legends pvp and you could play w DC universe Characters w preset skills and all are balanced. LETS GO CRYPTIC....MAKE THIS HAPPEN!!!!!
Let me preface this message with a facepalm, which is what a lot of your PvP community is doing right now .
I was told back when I returned to the game about this CDP, and that I should participate, my initial reaction was to laugh out loud, I believe I said something along the lines of "like the devs actually care", yada yada "nothing will change", "they will listen to the same people that ruined PvP to begin with" etc etc, you get the gist, I was sceptical to put it mildly .
Fast track to the present, I cannot say that I'm surprised, little to no changes where they are needed and to make matters worse an additional queue is being added to an already struggling community, this is nonsensical, you need to grow the community not divide and segment it further... this will not grow the community, once the initial novelty of playing a new mode is gone, you are right back at square one, except now you have another q that will not pop .
The amount of work that will go into this would be better spent on strengthening the foundations that are already in place, you are alienating those of us who stuck around hoping PvP would one day be great again, this is beyond frustrating, as most of the changes that are needed are outlined by numerous people in this very CDP .
Nobody who actually pvps complains about the gear difference. The people who complain about it are the ones who don’t actually pvp or have ever pvpd, but armchair quarterback through 3rd hand acccounts. Also pvp at its current time is more balanced than it has ever been, the stats to build a functional character are easy to acquire
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited June 2020
Dev why not highlight and show off your new pve scaling system in pvp and just scale people up to say 24k if you think item level differences are the issues in these pug stomping/ fairness scenarios ..then anybody can queue for normalized pvp and dont need cookie cutter build characters made for them and no need for more balance and crafting of new such cookie cutter characters and work by devs
/let them rent out armor weapon enchantments as rewards on the pvp loot table
devs your only monetization ideas of cdp pvp this round to justify this proposal development is the 3 premium characters and costumes ..something is very off .. you are definitely missing a trick here as well ...
Where are the other ads / glory sinks /custom dye colors etc ../custom glowing aura / carry over rewards that are useful in pve or building players stronghold as well why cant pvp drop more vouchers tokens for accelerating building stronghold structures as well
Chris the lead dev always says and agrees there are not enough ads sink in the game that is why the zen market is so backed up .. so where are the ads sinks for pvp rewards boxes ./ super store etc where is the hoock to encourage pve players to cross over and try ..where are items / rewards/ nice to haves that they could use in thier daily pve adventures as well etc to increase population
.We need the pvp equivalent to Juma the bag vendor with tons of ramdom reward chances
feature request no declining the pvp q pop the pvp queue pop should be un decline able there fore unexploited .therefore player are unable to game the system to try to sync to be on the same team
stop putting players into failed losing matches with no time left ..
When I started reading the proposal, my first impression was – good, the "issues raised" summary looks fairly accurate. From there however, the post went downhill really fast.
The first major flaw is right in the first sentence of the Overall Problem section. Your "current approach" is not what results in low PvP population.
It has been your approach over the past 5+ years that caused it. Remember that for PvP, skill is what should come first, and this includes mechanical skill, theorycrafting and builds, teamwork and shot calling, positional awareness and much more. Over time, power creep (including emphasis on heavy PvE grinding) and broken mechanics started interfering with this. From the first artifact gear, through strongholds and all the way to M16's great simplification of the game. I understand PvP cannot have been put first in place of PvE, but it wasn't even put second – it was ignored or made worse by poor decisions.
The next bit of the post is mostly fine, except discussing respawn timers is completely irrelevant to what PvP actually needs.
Proposed solution
Then, the solution itself is presented. The impression I get is that the "C" from the CDP is completely missing here. The proposed solution was made with stats and feedback on the chicken PvP in mind, not the CDP. That along with multiple delays and poor communication leaves a very bad impression.
So why is this solution so bad?
It removes a core aspect of RPG – our characters. This includes identity, depth in terms of builds and theorycrafting, possibilities of adaptation and customization. And make no mistake, that does not mean it will come down to pure skill. Just like chicken PvP, this will be about picking the strongest character and being the one to hit first. That along with 200+ ms latency for some players doesn't even come close to any form of skill.
And just as a hint, take a look at what happened to chicken PvP. First few days great, towards the end, barely above 2 instances.
What should be done instead
In short, what @ninefingers222 said. In terms of actual implementation, there is a number of detailed posts in this CDP thread. Those are written by veterans of PvP, players who have been here for a long time and know PvP better than anyone else around.
In this thread, I have written a very long, detailed description of how this would work. I also believe I put an emphasis on making it as cheap as possible in terms of development time.
Scaling has been a big topic recently, so how about making a PvP-friendly version of it to significantly reduce the power gap? I suspect that alone would achieve a much healthier PvP state than this whole proposal. Difference is, we get to keep our characters, which is a huge part of what makes this game what it is.
Once there is a small enough power gap between newcomers and current BiS veterans, a lot of positive side effects occur. Those are based on population increase, as players are no longer kicked as much, because they contribute more; no longer scared or demotivated because they can fight back.
With that done, many improvements can be made, such as removing solo queue and improving rewards that would inspire a much tougher competition.
Final thoughts
I took this CDP as a last chance given to PvP. Given how it was managed, I'm convinced that once again, nobody of us will be listened to. It might be that players like me are just relics of the past and we, with our opinions, are no longer welcome or considered here. Regardless, I hope that if you go forward this new PvP approach, you can build a new, lasting community around it.
I'm not keen on the idea of turning PvP to a mini-game.
2 major problems in PvP right now are:
1) Self-healing insignia bonuses, this is essentially the same problem with lifesteal in PvE. These bonuses are stuff like "Survivor's Blessing", "Oppressor's Reprieve", "Knight's Rebuke", etc... Basically any item, bonus, artifact power that allows enough self healing breaks the "holy trinity" in PvP, just like it does in PvE.
(Note: Mount Combat Powers are not a problem, they make a small difference, and only if used wisely.)
2) A basic imbalance in encounter power magnitudes and the speed at which they can be cast. This issue is somewhat a result of the first. Classes with higher magnitude encounters can build to be super tanky and still deal enough damage in one or two rotations to kill someone else of roughly equal 'tankiness' before the opponent can self heal. Other classes that have weaker encounter powers, even with slightly shorter cooldowns, can't really do enough burst damage between rotations to even put pressure on the opponent because by the time they get to another rotation the opponent has healed that 25% or so of hp you took off previously. There also may need to be some adjustments to the way crits and combat adv interact in PvP mostly with respect to TR's, high magnitude encounters + insta CA + 50% crit = nearly one shot/rotate most people 50% of the time. After seeing some of the changes to Barbarians in m19, I've strongly considered reviving my little halfling maniac for these vary reasons.
A third issue is just match making, I do have some ideas on how I think that can be implemented, but the key thing is that you have to give it time to work, it may take several months for the population to grow. You can do more chicken events or whatever to encourage that growth, combined with proper tiers, possibly in separate queues, could lead to a more healthy environment for new comers to learn in. There have been concerned with people swapping gear inside a match to get a round ilvl limits at queue time, this can be squashed by not allowing players to equip items that would put them over the limit inside the match, just like some items can't be equipped while leveling and the are above the characters current level. Simply, if the new item's ilvl + current total ilvl > limit, grey out that item and prevent it from being equipped. You could also disallow items over a certain item level from being equipped in combination with the previous limitation, would prevent people from trying to reequip their toon inside a match to out-gear the opponent/s.
I think if you do implement PvP as a mini-game, it should be a special event like the chicken PvP. We've already lost a significant amount of customizability in this game, and what was proposed, literally locking us into 7 different builds, is a horrible idea imho. Limiting gear and items to pvp only gear is one thing, especially with all the bonuses pve releases on gear, but prebuilt characters is too far I think. While the argument that there was an "illusion of choice" in the prem16 system may have held water in PvE, in PvP prem16 many options that were not viable in PvE were actually very desirable in PvP, we had lots of choice and customization points with respect to feats.
A lot of people like the idea of "Nascar rules", and I do too, to a certain extent, but only insofar as it's limited to gear, not builds. I've spent a lot of time (and ad), changing and tweaking builds for PvP just to experiment, either because I got bored, or thought I could do better. I enjoy that part of it.
Idk how the different functionality of powers/feats/etc in pvp/pve is actually implemented in the code, but if the developer's program over an abstraction (or interface), and use dependency injection (from oop) for different modes/loadouts, they could have different implementations for any mode, create a bunch of new modes (racing, etc), and never have problems with them "infecting" the balance of each other. I'm sure a software engineer would know what I'm talking about. So balancing existing classes for PvP and PvE separately is totally possible and like I said, if done right, would make creating new modes we haven't thought of possible and relatively easy to insert ("inject") into existing systems. Imagine PvP in the Simril Racing thing!
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited June 2020
"All of this is a proposal and can change in many ways. None of the call outs in this feature are a guarantee in any form or something we are locked into at this point."
Good please DO NOT lock into this .. where are the insentives to pvp for new players I dont see them !! .. ..where is any of the communities feedback implemented at all in this ..cause its not .
chicken pvp /classes was/were not balanced either and there were still premades ruining around and PUG stomping due to one simple thing they were actually using a mike to co ordinate and communicating and the same thing will happen with this neverwinter champions idea ..which would be on another buggy leaderboard i assume as well
there are proposed new 11 character slots including 1 dud henchman which is useless.. The game /arena should just pick something at random instead if no player choice is made when the match starts omg lol useless wasted development time from inception why are you making a character Henchman that is a bad choice that no one should pick omg lol ) .. you whole new design philosophy by simplifying mod 16 is to stop the player from making bad build/ class choice or having them even available to him .. and here we go again you offer the player a bad choice LOL
people are just going to pick the henchman class to troll the pvp match LOL
3 premium .. a 7 others how do you even have room to represent even one of every class let alone paragons .. including the new class coming out that should be represented as a choice ??
another thing where is the provision for the pvp tutorial as well or tips for new players so they have a clue and dont play like hampsters
Removing players ability to go into PvP with the toons they have spent hundreds, if not thousands, of hours building is a mistake. Adding content like the proposed solution as an alternative for players that don’t want to go all in for PvP sounds fantastic.
Make sure to let the players that fight with their own toons get better rewards than the players that run this dumbed down version 👍
Elite Whaleboy
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
Removing players ability to go into PvP with the toons they have spent hundreds, if not thousands, of hours building is a mistake. Adding content like the proposed solution as an alternative for players that don’t want to go all in for PvP sounds fantastic.
Make sure to let the players that fight with their own toons get better rewards than the players that run this dumbed down version 👍
they never said they were doing that (removing normal domination/ progression ) they were just unclear in the cpd cause they only had 3 months to "rush" work on this pvp cpd proposal *sarcasm*
I would really like “premade” characters. April fowls was a blast and in my experience skyrocketed pvp numbers. The reason being is that everybody was on the same footing and it required skill and tactics to win (generally). As of right now there are way to many “hidden” bugs and exploits that people can use in pve and the smart ones can also carry this over to pvp. A further “boring” aspect of pvp is fighting on the same node for 5 minutes and eventually 1 person runs away because neither people can hurt each other (obviously I‘m exaggerating but it still the same feeling) if everything is premade this makes coding easier as you would have to only balance Premade 7 characters and never worry about gear that comes from pve. You can adjust said characters without effecting pve. I always thought that pvp is a fun kind of “past time” to pve. You get cool titles, you can look cool, you might get some stuff that helps you in pve. I am disliking that I need to be “max” pve to actually participate in pvp which it really should be the other way around. Oh and if It was all premade chars Then any lvl char could participate in pvp and it wouldn’t make a difference either so it would open up pvp from lvl 4-80 instead of just “max 80”.
I never understood why I would have to be playing a game for 2 yrs (to be max etc) just to pvp when pvp should be “hey I have 30 min to kill let’s stab some players”.
As it is right now, it is easier to complete tomm then it is to play pvp and not get crushed by mega maxed players.
Thank you all for your patience as the team too the time to discuss all the feedback and put together a comprehensive write-up.
Issues Raised in CDP:
Seasoned veterans pub-stomping newcomers who are not equipped with Best in Slot gear
A desire for separate PvP ability balance and gear that can be used
Complaints about artifacts and Mount Powers.
Pay to Win Complaints
More game Modes requested: Deathmatch, Capture the Flag
Solo Queue and Group Queuing
Rewards from playing PvP are bad outside of the season rewards, and do not help a player get better gear for PvP
Matchmaking does not take class into effect. It will sometimes create a team of only healers and tanks with no DPS, or put a bunch of DPS without any tanks.
Respawn timers need some looking into. It feels random.
come on, i'm trying to follow some forum topics that i think is important, and this is taking me a long time, i hope my 2 cents will be useful.
First of all I would like to express one of the biggest frustrations that I had in the M17, M18 and now in the M19 referring to PvP. All of them had everything to work perfectly with a system similar to that of icewind Dale or even better if you wanted, where we would associate ourselves with one of the fighting lakes and take the pains on the side we chose to fight in a PvP scourge within the map PvE. People at least tell me that it went through your mind when developing these modules. githyanki vs Illithids - M17 Demons vs Devils - M18 and M19 In the M19 mainly because it has an extensive map and already has a blood war meter. imagine my frustration when seeing that this map did not bring an open PvP. I think you missed a lot of opportunities here.
Well, but back to the main topic. I read many posts from members with ideas that really should be taken into account. I am not a PvP player for lack of lines. I have been playing for over 2 years and yet whenever I am available I play even without a friendly start. Worse than the feeling of playing PvP and losing, is playing PvP, winning and not having a decent loot even in the first victory of the day.
I really find PvPs pre-defined with iconic characters interesting, but that would be something for a PvP Event like the chicken ones. In fact we want to play with our characters in the vast majority. for that we need a decent balance. I liked the suggestions of some to put the new M19 scale into PvP. But I think a scale version made for PvP would be better. I could predefine the statistics for an average number according to the role, putting everyone on the same level, regardless of whether I am level 30 or 80.
Example: whoever enters the queue as a Healer will always have 150k of Power 175k of critical striker, 50% of critical severity and 300kd and HP. other statistics would be at an average video, perhaps 50k. understand that I am damaging an example referring to statistical standardization for all Roles, Healer, Tank and DPS, these numbers would not be exactly.
Along with this, an enchantment scale system. that would put all enchants in the same rank. For example, all enchants when entering the PvP area are scaled to Rank 12. With that, new players with rank 2 or 3 flattening will be able to match the veterans.
Badge bonuses should be disabled as well as companions. skills of some classes with highly exaggerated magnitudes, could have a slight reduction when entering PvP mode. something that would be reported in the skill description. I would love to see the companions and insignia of mounts being disabled also in the open PvP of Icewind, it was always something I did not understand the reason for being released.
I am a great active promoter of Neveriwnter, I am a guild leader focused on recruiting new players. eventually i create videos for youtube, i am present in the facebook groups of my country and i always defend / recommend nevrwinter. but when someone asks me about PvP it's hard to argue. I try to pull the side of the discourse towards Icewind's open PvP which always works because it leaves many people excited by the open PvP concept. it is really sad that no other map came with this system even with as many opportunities as the ones I mentioned in recent modules. Still on the open PvP, a general improvement in this system would be very good until for possible future releases. as a base addition on opposite sides of the PvP area for the revival of each of the clans, an "invisible" collider that captures the count of how many members of each clan is within the PvP area, preventing new members of a clan from overtaking the collider if your team already has a numerical advantage of players, things like that that allow a better competitiveness of open PvP, this way it can also count for the elevation of ranking and PvP campaigns.
Those are the main points that come to mind I hope it helps in some way. have a good week.
the only concern for me is that with the new pvp style i will change the aspect of my character. i like the rest of the changes, but some of us spent a lot of time to make the appearance on their characters, both the physical one and the one of the gear, and i think that they would like to play them (at least i do). i find interesting that we can be monster, or npc, but give us the possibility to change the class but keep our appearance (at least the physical one)
Nobody who actually pvps complains about the gear difference. The people who complain about it are the ones who don’t actually pvp or have ever pvpd, but armchair quarterback through 3rd hand acccounts. Also pvp at its current time is more balanced than it has ever been, the stats to build a functional character are easy to acquire
There is an obvious chasm here between the small group of currently active PvPers, and the rest of the players in the game that do not PvP. Nitocris's post goes far in suggesting that the current level of active PvPers is too low to be worthwhile for the devs, and despite attempts to increase engagement in PvP they have not succeeded.
So basically the comments here now are from the active PvPers that would lose out if PvP is taken in a new non-gear direction. Yes, your investments in PvP are likely to be worthless since current PvP will get less/no attention and will slowly die while people otherwise are having fun in gear-less PvP. Your feeling of being king of the world because of your uber gear also is likely to disappear. Likely the current PvP will be cut from the game at some later time to save dev resources, just like the Foundry.
I think at the core of this is that Cryptic cannot defend spending much development effort on a PvP solution that so few players use. The current PvP solution has been massively downvoted by the players: so few players use it.
Cryptic wants: * More players in PvP to defend spending resources on it- and then the big thresholds to being successful in PvP(gear) must go away * An easier to build, balance and maintain PvP - Since gear is removed from the balancing, it is a lot easier to balance stuff. And since nobody does massive investments in PvP there should be no huge uproar when they tune the selectable classes up and down.
Cryptic took a long time discussing this. Have no doubt: I am certain one of the options being discussed was to cut out PvP altogether as the current PvP is too much noise and resource burn for little payback. Be happy you get a PvP solution at all.
Comments
Having said that, I know there are people the enjoy PVP very much. Any fixes that get done for class balance for PVP, must in absolutely no way affect classes for PVE. Maybe give everyone another loadout specifically for PVP. Just don't start monkeying around with class balance to try and balance the classes for PVP, and then let it break PVE.
PVE is why I came to play Neverwinter in the first place, and if it gets royally fubared trying to fix PVP, I ain't gonna be happy.
One advice for you and similar players.. If you don't use, or play x game content, does not mean it should be removed from game.
There is no need to come in pvp forum or here in this CDP and try tell devs to remove this game system/element just cuz you don't like or don't do pvp.
This is one if not the main reason why this game in such problematic situation.
Too many players think that game runs arround them only.
When players start throwing suggestion to shape game for their needs only, then game can't be fixed.
Remember, you are just another player, like me and rest of community. Game do not run arround us, we are simply part of it.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Issues Raised in CDP:
Overall Problem:
Our current PvP approach doesn’t work for the majority of our audience which results in low PvP populations. Some of the concerns raised in the CDP are a direct result of this. For example, our PvP queues already try to match players by similar item levels, but it will only try that for a certain amount of time before matching together a random group. In the past this timer was longer, but due to the PvP community being small even with that longer delay we got the same imbalanced matches so we shortened the timer to reduce those waits.
This in turn results in newer players being put into matches with highly geared PvP veterans which is not a good experience. That bad experience makes those new players decide PvP isn’t as fun as they’d hoped it would be and they move on.
Even more geared and skilled players still struggle at times as they aren’t at the very top of how strongly they can be geared. This creates the call that PvP is “Pay to Win”. While we don’t feel that is quite an accurate statement, we do understand where the frustration is coming from.
One last side note since respawn timers came up. Those are a rolling respawn which means they aren’t your personal respawn timer but are instead your team’s. This is so that instead of players respawning one by one and trying to get back in the fight before others die, the team members who are dead can spawn together and do a coordinated attack. We should do a better job calling this out and displaying it for players.
Potential Solution:
Even before we had made April Fowl’s we had discussed moving PvP to a style of preset characters. It was an idea we would discuss on and off over time as we weren’t sure if it was the right move to make. During that time, we continued to grow the PvP audience by working on PvP balance, improving rewards, making a better campaign, and adding PvP Seasons.
While each of these steps would result in short term growth of PvP, it wouldn’t take long for the number of players participating in PvP to drop back down to low levels.
That fact combined with the strong positive reaction to April Fowls PvP has renewed our interest in approaching PvP in a new way with preset characters. Here is a rough outline of how that would work and how we might be able to roll it out.
Stages:
Alpha: Our first stage of development would be a simplified version of this concept that we would release in an Alpha state. This means it wouldn’t have all of the functionality and polish but would have the core gameplay for early feedback.
Alpha would have the following items:
The existing domination maps would now have a contact in the starting area which players use to choose their character.
We would strive to make 11 preset characters:
- 1 Henchman – the basic class you spawn in with that is weak. This is just to make sure players are not themselves and that they know to pick a real class before jumping into the action
- 7 Standard – these are different monsters/characters from Neverwinter that are free for all players to use
- 3 Premium – To make sure PvP doesn’t feel pay to win at all, we are going to approach it with the goal of having premium
characters/premium costumes instead of paying to have better gear. This is where more iconic Neverwinter characters would show up such as: Knox, Celeste, Makos. These shouldn’t give any statistical advantage; they are simply a different option and play style.These preset characters would have their stats all set to fit their role/function and would have one set of powers on the power tray – 3 encounters, 2 dailies, 2 at wills.
That is all the Alpha build would have. This allows players to try out the new PvP right away and start giving feedback.
Beta: This stage is more about putting the polish on the existing functionality we’ve built, providing more class options to keep PvP fresh and the matches more varied. We would want to create the first aspects of progression (such as a campaign system or boon tree system). What the progression system is specifically will depend on both feedback and how we can leverage our existing tech.
Official: This is the stage where we call the feature fully released. For this stage we should add at least one new PvP match type. Either something like capture the flag, or a more involved match where a bigger group of players are in the match and there are a mix of PvP and PvE objectives to allow a wider range of players to participate.
By this stage we should have our progression system and UI setups finalized.
Future: Beyond the official release we will want to continue to add new classes and new costumes for existing classes. If PvP is proving to be particularly popular then we should continue to add a few different game modes and potentially bring back competitive seasons with a 3v3 death match smaller map style.
All of this is a proposal and can change in many ways. None of the call outs in this feature are a guarantee in any form or something we are locked into at this point.
Thank you to everyone who participated in the PvP CDP.
This is bad, the wheels in my head are spinning.
Jade - Cleric - Healer Main - The Freak Core - Xbone
Magnus - Fighter - Tank for queues - The Freak Core - Xbone
Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Bardholomew - Bard - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Sirona - Cleric - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
However, I did like chicken PVP and good chance this system will allow for more premades. Regular premades are something me and many other PVP players really miss and want back. The gear gap being taken out of the equation is healthyer for this game's PVP overall and will appeal to both new players and many in the veteran crowd as well. This type of PVP will likely be very popular if designed well and lets you earn good rewards.
So I will vouge for this type of PVP to be introduced on the condition that the existing option to fight eachother as our own characters is left intact.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
I just was informed by Cryptic-Ridi that the old PVP system isn't going to be scrapped when this new heroes PVP gets introduced. We're good now XD.
I will mention, the way that CDP post is written made it look like the old PVP system is getting scrapped. I wasn't only person who had that take, everyone I saw talking about it today before I heard about it was saying same thing. @nitocris83 You should update that CDP post to clarify that this proposal isn't intended to replace the existing system where we fight eachother with the characters we made.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
What about additional loot drops weapons and items that are pvp specific where is that in the new pvp loot table
Where are there any incentives in this cdp to play the existing pvp maps with your own character including the 10 v 10 ones?
I really wonder what the pvp proposal looked like before it got influenced by this chicken pvp : D
There are many typos/ mistakes in this "official" proposal..
I mean the first line already has a mistake in it... I am glad the team "too" the time to discuss this lol
also its ..Pug stomping (pick up group) . .. not Pub
It would be nice to know the team reviewing this can relate and actually know what "Pug" stomping is
especially for a pvp cdp ... : D
also in the proposal it is written "These preset characters would have their stats all set to fit their role/function and would have one set of powers on the power tray – 3 encounters, 2 dailies, 2 at wills."
Devs I think you are missing a trick by not utilizing the potion tray slots for clickies buff consumables.. gained from pvp etc or even unique buffs/ powers abilities etc / signature moves relating to the custom class you are trying to create .. what will be happening to the potion tray slots ..?
i also think you are missing a trick by not having a customized character options with a point allocation buy in system
for certain power or abilities / load outs etc ..
how does this stop or prevent flavor of the month from happening with these custom load outs characters ,
what is the max amount of the same class allowed per match 2 ?
and if you dont release custom tweaks / patches and updates every month or so for these new custom modes and characters you will hamster pvp again ..balance concerns for characters cant go on for months or years unaddressed
I was told back when I returned to the game about this CDP, and that I should participate, my initial reaction was to laugh out loud, I believe I said something along the lines of "like the devs actually care", yada yada "nothing will change", "they will listen to the same people that ruined PvP to begin with" etc etc, you get the gist, I was sceptical to put it mildly .
Fast track to the present, I cannot say that I'm surprised, little to no changes where they are needed and to make matters worse an additional queue is being added to an already struggling community, this is nonsensical, you need to grow the community not divide and segment it further... this will not grow the community, once the initial novelty of playing a new mode is gone, you are right back at square one, except now you have another q that will not pop .
The amount of work that will go into this would be better spent on strengthening the foundations that are already in place, you are alienating those of us who stuck around hoping PvP would one day be great again, this is beyond frustrating, as most of the changes that are needed are outlined by numerous people in this very CDP .
/let them rent out armor weapon enchantments as rewards on the pvp loot table
devs your only monetization ideas of cdp pvp this round to justify this proposal development is the 3 premium characters and costumes ..something is very off .. you are definitely missing a trick here as well ...
Where are the other ads / glory sinks /custom dye colors etc ../custom glowing aura / carry over rewards that are useful in pve or building players stronghold as well why cant pvp drop more vouchers tokens for accelerating building stronghold structures as well
Chris the lead dev always says and agrees there are not enough ads sink in the game that is why the zen market is so backed up .. so where are the ads sinks for pvp rewards boxes ./ super store etc where is the hoock to encourage pve players to cross over and try ..where are items / rewards/ nice to haves that they could use in thier daily pve adventures as well etc to increase population
.We need the pvp equivalent to Juma the bag vendor with tons of ramdom reward chances
feature request no declining the pvp q pop
the pvp queue pop should be un decline able there fore unexploited .therefore player are unable to game the system
to try to sync to be on the same team
stop putting players into failed losing matches with no time left ..
Introduction
When I started reading the proposal, my first impression was – good, the "issues raised" summary looks fairly accurate. From there however, the post went downhill really fast.The first major flaw is right in the first sentence of the Overall Problem section. Your "current approach" is not what results in low PvP population.
It has been your approach over the past 5+ years that caused it. Remember that for PvP, skill is what should come first, and this includes mechanical skill, theorycrafting and builds, teamwork and shot calling, positional awareness and much more. Over time, power creep (including emphasis on heavy PvE grinding) and broken mechanics started interfering with this. From the first artifact gear, through strongholds and all the way to M16's great simplification of the game. I understand PvP cannot have been put first in place of PvE, but it wasn't even put second – it was ignored or made worse by poor decisions.
The next bit of the post is mostly fine, except discussing respawn timers is completely irrelevant to what PvP actually needs.
Proposed solution
Then, the solution itself is presented. The impression I get is that the "C" from the CDP is completely missing here. The proposed solution was made with stats and feedback on the chicken PvP in mind, not the CDP. That along with multiple delays and poor communication leaves a very bad impression.So why is this solution so bad?
It removes a core aspect of RPG – our characters. This includes identity, depth in terms of builds and theorycrafting, possibilities of adaptation and customization. And make no mistake, that does not mean it will come down to pure skill. Just like chicken PvP, this will be about picking the strongest character and being the one to hit first. That along with 200+ ms latency for some players doesn't even come close to any form of skill.And just as a hint, take a look at what happened to chicken PvP. First few days great, towards the end, barely above 2 instances.
What should be done instead
In short, what @ninefingers222 said. In terms of actual implementation, there is a number of detailed posts in this CDP thread. Those are written by veterans of PvP, players who have been here for a long time and know PvP better than anyone else around.In this thread, I have written a very long, detailed description of how this would work. I also believe I put an emphasis on making it as cheap as possible in terms of development time.
Scaling has been a big topic recently, so how about making a PvP-friendly version of it to significantly reduce the power gap? I suspect that alone would achieve a much healthier PvP state than this whole proposal. Difference is, we get to keep our characters, which is a huge part of what makes this game what it is.
Once there is a small enough power gap between newcomers and current BiS veterans, a lot of positive side effects occur. Those are based on population increase, as players are no longer kicked as much, because they contribute more; no longer scared or demotivated because they can fight back.
With that done, many improvements can be made, such as removing solo queue and improving rewards that would inspire a much tougher competition.
Final thoughts
I took this CDP as a last chance given to PvP. Given how it was managed, I'm convinced that once again, nobody of us will be listened to. It might be that players like me are just relics of the past and we, with our opinions, are no longer welcome or considered here. Regardless, I hope that if you go forward this new PvP approach, you can build a new, lasting community around it.2 major problems in PvP right now are:
1) Self-healing insignia bonuses, this is essentially the same problem with lifesteal in PvE. These bonuses are stuff like "Survivor's Blessing", "Oppressor's Reprieve", "Knight's Rebuke", etc... Basically any item, bonus, artifact power that allows enough self healing breaks the "holy trinity" in PvP, just like it does in PvE.
(Note: Mount Combat Powers are not a problem, they make a small difference, and only if used wisely.)
2) A basic imbalance in encounter power magnitudes and the speed at which they can be cast. This issue is somewhat a result of the first. Classes with higher magnitude encounters can build to be super tanky and still deal enough damage in one or two rotations to kill someone else of roughly equal 'tankiness' before the opponent can self heal. Other classes that have weaker encounter powers, even with slightly shorter cooldowns, can't really do enough burst damage between rotations to even put pressure on the opponent because by the time they get to another rotation the opponent has healed that 25% or so of hp you took off previously. There also may need to be some adjustments to the way crits and combat adv interact in PvP mostly with respect to TR's, high magnitude encounters + insta CA + 50% crit = nearly one shot/rotate most people 50% of the time. After seeing some of the changes to Barbarians in m19, I've strongly considered reviving my little halfling maniac for these vary reasons.
A third issue is just match making, I do have some ideas on how I think that can be implemented, but the key thing is that you have to give it time to work, it may take several months for the population to grow. You can do more chicken events or whatever to encourage that growth, combined with proper tiers, possibly in separate queues, could lead to a more healthy environment for new comers to learn in. There have been concerned with people swapping gear inside a match to get a round ilvl limits at queue time, this can be squashed by not allowing players to equip items that would put them over the limit inside the match, just like some items can't be equipped while leveling and the are above the characters current level. Simply, if the new item's ilvl + current total ilvl > limit, grey out that item and prevent it from being equipped. You could also disallow items over a certain item level from being equipped in combination with the previous limitation, would prevent people from trying to reequip their toon inside a match to out-gear the opponent/s.
I think if you do implement PvP as a mini-game, it should be a special event like the chicken PvP. We've already lost a significant amount of customizability in this game, and what was proposed, literally locking us into 7 different builds, is a horrible idea imho. Limiting gear and items to pvp only gear is one thing, especially with all the bonuses pve releases on gear, but prebuilt characters is too far I think. While the argument that there was an "illusion of choice" in the prem16 system may have held water in PvE, in PvP prem16 many options that were not viable in PvE were actually very desirable in PvP, we had lots of choice and customization points with respect to feats.
A lot of people like the idea of "Nascar rules", and I do too, to a certain extent, but only insofar as it's limited to gear, not builds. I've spent a lot of time (and ad), changing and tweaking builds for PvP just to experiment, either because I got bored, or thought I could do better. I enjoy that part of it.
Idk how the different functionality of powers/feats/etc in pvp/pve is actually implemented in the code, but if the developer's program over an abstraction (or interface), and use dependency injection (from oop) for different modes/loadouts, they could have different implementations for any mode, create a bunch of new modes (racing, etc), and never have problems with them "infecting" the balance of each other. I'm sure a software engineer would know what I'm talking about. So balancing existing classes for PvP and PvE separately is totally possible and like I said, if done right, would make creating new modes we haven't thought of possible and relatively easy to insert ("inject") into existing systems. Imagine PvP in the Simril Racing thing!
Good please DO NOT lock into this .. where are the insentives to pvp for new players I dont see them !! .. ..where is any of the communities feedback implemented at all in this ..cause its not .
chicken pvp /classes was/were not balanced either and there were still premades ruining around and PUG stomping due to one simple thing they were actually using a mike to co ordinate and communicating and the same thing will happen with this neverwinter champions idea ..which would be on another buggy leaderboard i assume as well
there are proposed new 11 character slots including 1 dud henchman which is useless..
The game /arena should just pick something at random instead if no player choice is made when the match starts omg lol useless wasted development time from inception why are you making a character Henchman that is a bad choice that no one should pick omg lol ) .. you whole new design philosophy by simplifying mod 16 is to stop the player from making bad build/ class choice or having them even available to him .. and here we go again you offer the player a bad choice LOL
people are just going to pick the henchman class to troll the pvp match LOL
3 premium .. a 7 others how do you even have room to represent even one of every class let alone paragons .. including the new class coming out that should be represented as a choice ??
another thing where is the provision for the pvp tutorial as well or tips for new players so they have a clue and dont play like hampsters
Make sure to let the players that fight with their own toons get better rewards than the players that run this dumbed down version 👍
As it is right now, it is easier to complete tomm then it is to play pvp and not get crushed by mega maxed players.
First of all I would like to express one of the biggest frustrations that I had in the M17, M18 and now in the M19 referring to PvP. All of them had everything to work perfectly with a system similar to that of icewind Dale or even better if you wanted, where we would associate ourselves with one of the fighting lakes and take the pains on the side we chose to fight in a PvP scourge within the map PvE.
People at least tell me that it went through your mind when developing these modules.
githyanki vs Illithids - M17
Demons vs Devils - M18 and M19
In the M19 mainly because it has an extensive map and already has a blood war meter. imagine my frustration when seeing that this map did not bring an open PvP. I think you missed a lot of opportunities here.
Well, but back to the main topic. I read many posts from members with ideas that really should be taken into account. I am not a PvP player for lack of lines. I have been playing for over 2 years and yet whenever I am available I play even without a friendly start. Worse than the feeling of playing PvP and losing, is playing PvP, winning and not having a decent loot even in the first victory of the day.
I really find PvPs pre-defined with iconic characters interesting, but that would be something for a PvP Event like the chicken ones. In fact we want to play with our characters in the vast majority. for that we need a decent balance. I liked the suggestions of some to put the new M19 scale into PvP. But I think a scale version made for PvP would be better. I could predefine the statistics for an average number according to the role, putting everyone on the same level, regardless of whether I am level 30 or 80.
Example: whoever enters the queue as a Healer will always have 150k of Power 175k of critical striker, 50% of critical severity and 300kd and HP. other statistics would be at an average video, perhaps 50k. understand that I am damaging an example referring to statistical standardization for all Roles, Healer, Tank and DPS, these numbers would not be exactly.
Along with this, an enchantment scale system. that would put all enchants in the same rank.
For example, all enchants when entering the PvP area are scaled to Rank 12. With that, new players with rank 2 or 3 flattening will be able to match the veterans.
Badge bonuses should be disabled as well as companions. skills of some classes with highly exaggerated magnitudes, could have a slight reduction when entering PvP mode. something that would be reported in the skill description.
I would love to see the companions and insignia of mounts being disabled also in the open PvP of Icewind, it was always something I did not understand the reason for being released.
I am a great active promoter of Neveriwnter, I am a guild leader focused on recruiting new players. eventually i create videos for youtube, i am present in the facebook groups of my country and i always defend / recommend nevrwinter. but when someone asks me about PvP it's hard to argue. I try to pull the side of the discourse towards Icewind's open PvP which always works because it leaves many people excited by the open PvP concept. it is really sad that no other map came with this system even with as many opportunities as the ones I mentioned in recent modules.
Still on the open PvP, a general improvement in this system would be very good until for possible future releases. as a base addition on opposite sides of the PvP area for the revival of each of the clans, an "invisible" collider that captures the count of how many members of each clan is within the PvP area, preventing new members of a clan from overtaking the collider if your team already has a numerical advantage of players, things like that that allow a better competitiveness of open PvP, this way it can also count for the elevation of ranking and PvP campaigns.
Those are the main points that come to mind I hope it helps in some way. have a good week.
i like the rest of the changes, but some of us spent a lot of time to make the appearance on their characters, both the physical one and the one of the gear, and i think that they would like to play them (at least i do).
i find interesting that we can be monster, or npc, but give us the possibility to change the class but keep our appearance (at least the physical one)
So basically the comments here now are from the active PvPers that would lose out if PvP is taken in a new non-gear direction. Yes, your investments in PvP are likely to be worthless since current PvP will get less/no attention and will slowly die while people otherwise are having fun in gear-less PvP. Your feeling of being king of the world because of your uber gear also is likely to disappear. Likely the current PvP will be cut from the game at some later time to save dev resources, just like the Foundry.
I think at the core of this is that Cryptic cannot defend spending much development effort on a PvP solution that so few players use. The current PvP solution has been massively downvoted by the players: so few players use it.
Cryptic wants:
* More players in PvP to defend spending resources on it- and then the big thresholds to being successful in PvP(gear) must go away
* An easier to build, balance and maintain PvP - Since gear is removed from the balancing, it is a lot easier to balance stuff. And since nobody does massive investments in PvP there should be no huge uproar when they tune the selectable classes up and down.
Cryptic took a long time discussing this. Have no doubt: I am certain one of the options being discussed was to cut out PvP altogether as the current PvP is too much noise and resource burn for little payback. Be happy you get a PvP solution at all.