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Combat advantage by positioning.
lardeson
Member Posts: 374 Arc User
This is something that has been there for awhile now and i dint want to point it out as i thought the team was aware but its been there for too long and needs addressing cos im pretty sure its not working as intended.
Combat advantage by positioning is currently bugged, at a certain range, which i believe is 50' further, you stop getting combat advantage.
I dint judge this just by looking at the marker (white-blue circle) around the enemy that indicates combat advantage, but also by my damage when im at that range or further away. This clearly isn't working as intended as it would render certain builds, companions, gear, etc useless. Like the hunting hawk companion increases your damage based on your range, the Boots stompers which is an IL 1000 gear gives 2.5% damage when u are 50 or further. those are just examples, there are other items affected.
Even without those items in mind, it still shouldn't be working that way, as it takes away every thought of "strategy" or unique styles of gameplay from the game. For rangers, sws, cws who want to play in a certain way and not get one-shot by adds and bosses, this makes it unlikely.
Well i believe its a bug and has to be addressed.
Combat advantage by positioning is currently bugged, at a certain range, which i believe is 50' further, you stop getting combat advantage.
I dint judge this just by looking at the marker (white-blue circle) around the enemy that indicates combat advantage, but also by my damage when im at that range or further away. This clearly isn't working as intended as it would render certain builds, companions, gear, etc useless. Like the hunting hawk companion increases your damage based on your range, the Boots stompers which is an IL 1000 gear gives 2.5% damage when u are 50 or further. those are just examples, there are other items affected.
Even without those items in mind, it still shouldn't be working that way, as it takes away every thought of "strategy" or unique styles of gameplay from the game. For rangers, sws, cws who want to play in a certain way and not get one-shot by adds and bosses, this makes it unlikely.
Well i believe its a bug and has to be addressed.
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
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Comments
Also this is something we never noticed in past mods as several classes could give CA in combat.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
>.
>
> so items like root stompers with the 2.5%
> dmg when 50' away or more don't do
> anything, and being that far away from the
> target actually decreases your outgoing
> damage?
That is the way that positional CA works, yes.
Besides what Vorphied mentioned about healing, it also makes it difficult for you to support your teammates and vice versa.
> @lardeson said:
> It has worked this way since the beginning of the game.
>
> and it has been reported before but they
> said it had been fixed in mod14 or 15 and
> its clearly not.
Do you have a link to this?
> Also this is something we never noticed in
> past mods as several classes could give CA
>in combat.
Nightmare Wizardry still does this, IIRC
(Tank)(Boss)(Healer/DPS) 50' away (DPS with CA)
(Tank/dps/healer)(Boss) 50'away (DPS with no CA)
@vorphied thats actually wrong, in most mmos i've played as a ranged class, i dont see myself constantly being in melee range on bosses, thats why there's a tank and you can use whatever strategy you feel needed, not to mention that healers can heal you from range, nor the fact that you wont actually be taking all that much damage if you are far away and can move in and out if you need healing. At the current states its more of a static gameplay than anything else, just stay there, dps, and get healed, no strategy, nothing. Thats not how mmos work.
There is nothing obvious about it. Post proof or retract. All of the patch notes are searchable through Google or other engines.
> > @pariswinters#7118 said:
>
> >.
>
> >
>
> > so items like root stompers with the 2.5%
>
> > dmg when 50' away or more don't do
>
> > anything, and being that far away from the
>
> > target actually decreases your outgoing
>
> > damage?
>
>
>
> That is the way that positional CA works, yes.
>
>
>
> Besides what Vorphied mentioned about healing, it also makes it difficult for you to support your teammates and vice versa.
>
>
>
>
>
> > @lardeson said:
>
> > It has worked this way since the beginning of the game.
>
> >
>
> > and it has been reported before but they
>
> > said it had been fixed in mod14 or 15 and
>
> > its clearly not.
>
>
>
> Do you have a link to this?
>
>
>
> > Also this is something we never noticed in
>
> > past mods as several classes could give CA
>
> >in combat.
>
>
>
> Nightmare Wizardry still does this, IIRC
>
> that was ages ago, so obviously not. NW is now paragon path limited, so it cant be called a viable choice. The funny side is that with marking or NW there was no limit to range, so yes i stand on what i said before, thats not working as intended, also if you noticed, when placing CA with class mechanics, the marker is actually a whole circle but with positioning, its broken into sections, which means you sometimes need to move to specific angle to actually get CA, being in the opposite flank doesn't necessarily mean you are getting CA. Atleast for cw and i believe its the same for the rest of the classes, the max range is 80, not 50, we also have a class called "ranger" in the game that are supposed to fight from range.
>
> @vorphied thats actually wrong, in most mmos i've played as a ranged class, i dont see myself constantly being in melee range on bosses, thats why there's a tank and you can use whatever strategy you feel needed, not to mention that healers can heal you from range, nor the fact that you wont actually be taking all that much damage if you are far away and can move in and out if you need healing. At the current states its more of a static gameplay than anything else, just stay there, dps, and get healed, no strategy, nothing. Thats not how mmos work.
But that’s not how this MMO works.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
"When attacking a foe, if there is an ally attacking the same foe from the opposite direction, both players involved will have Combat Advantage, dealing bonus damage.
This is indicated by a sword icon next to the floating damage. Enemies show a blue indicator at their feet when you are in the right position" there's no reference of you having to be in melee range to get CA, while other class mechanics can give you CA at any range, the same mechanic, in the same game, working differently makes 0 sense.
Retract? when the same mechanic works in 2 different ways in the same game, that should be enough for you. you go ahead and search.
Flanking- positioning of the enemy between player and ally.
Can you tell me where it says you need to be in 15' range?
This I discovered back in MOD4 and MOD5 and saw that you still get benefits even in MOD12-MOD13... They should be the same thing, but they are taken as two different entities as if there are two different CA bonuses calculated separatelly and then added to the overall damage. You will find that the use of Nightmare Wizardry feat is/was much better in comparison to the regular CA bonus.
Under some very specific conditions back in MOD4/5 and even in some TR/CW runs in mod12 you could get and utilize both CA bonuses at one for a brief moment giving you all three Renegade Chaos Magic buffs. It was only a fraction of a second, but it was possible to do so.
AFAIK you can't see this in the regular ACTing due to a fact that it all translates to a single entity through the combatlog/parsing/whatever.
There are things that should be one the same thing given the description, but act independently from each other. CA is the same like that.
On CW back in mods you had two different ways to make CA bonus
1xCA, separate entity
- Steal Time on Tab
- Nightmare Wizardry
The range for this power is MASSIVE! And not party-dependent, only ally-dependent. Anyone gets this buff even if they are not close to the target. I think that the range for Nightmare wizardry is well over 2.000ft radius/distance, but I'm not sure as I never measured that. The same was for Steal Time before it changed in MOD16.
1xCA, separate entity
- 15ft to the target, 180 degree gives a bonus 45 degree blueish cone that circles depending upon the positioning. This was ALWAYS the case, the range is slightly less than the radius of Icy Terrain (for comparison purposes). I do remember this since I would use it alongside with my Chultan Tiger whenever I was attacking something back in mod 12 or similar. Chultan tiger was giving special bonus based on CA activation.
However, both of these CA activation should be one the same thing, but it was possible before to activate both of them separately since recovery, too, was a contributing factor! In relation to both of them, Nightmare Wizardry proved to be far more useful.
Right now you still have Nightmare Wizardry on Arcanist path and entire party or instance gets a buff with a bit of starting damage.
However, the current CA bonus by positioning does seem a bit wonky or that it does less damage - but here's the trick, not all powers receive the CA bonus in the same way that not all powers receive the ranged %dps bonus or similar to that.
I agree with you that Combat Advantage should be looked upon and perhaps made a bit easier, and while at it that CA Bonus given by Arcanist path should be reduced in terms of the range it provides.
50 feet for CA bonus based on positioning is a bit too much imho. It's basically the range of an entire "Close the Demon Portals" scenario in Well of Dragons.
Furthermore, Ring of the Shadowstalker already gives bonus when close by, which is 2.5 + 2 to Powers in general, not only to Ranged ones like ebonized rings etc. And I do think that pretty much everyone has a few. Being close to a mob, also, shouldn't be that weird to any Wizard as this was how we played for the past got knows how long... ever since Arcane Singularity got nerfed. MOD3 or MOD4 if I remember correctly.
I do understand that some other metas where you had a wizard stand in one place and just spam qwerty whilst tank takes all damage was a thing, but I prefer a more dynamic and skillfull gameplay for a Wizzy where I have to evade, get into the heart of the danger etc.
As Arcanist I'm pretty much always close to the enemy anyways so I can't see any problem with 15ft CA bonus. It's just positioning. In fact I'd like to see more people utilize positioning instead to be lazy and get stuff for free with CA buffers.
However, you say that Ca bonus doesn't work so I can't really comment on that without some evidence or whatever.
Cheers
The mechanic alone is self descriptive, it clearly says that you get combat advantage from your positioning (doesn't mention any radius) it only says u need to be on the opposite flank from your ally, so being it you are 100ft away, while you have an ally on the opposite flank you should be getting CA according to that description.
Tbh i cant argue your previous tests cos in previous mods like i said we had alot of CA source so pretty sure almost no one paid attention to that, you had the mark from gf, hr and tr could give ca too, wizard and if i recall gwf with daring shout. So in dungeons which is where u normally look into mechanics, it was unlikely not to have CA.
And yes i do know we have no issues staying in melee but not everyone can take a hit to the face, specially me, i pull alot of aggro on most bosses and tend to move back abit from bosses and there's the issue, the moment i move back i lose CA, thats far from being dynamic in any way.
> "that was ages ago, so obviously not. "
>
>
>
> There is nothing obvious about it. Post proof or retract. All of the patch notes are searchable through Google or other engines.
>
> Well you can do the search yourself. I repeat its been reported in previous mods that CA by positioning wasn't working as intended in was "fixed" but never tested it as it wasn't needed in previous mods.
> Retract? when the same mechanic works in 2 different ways in the same game, that should be enough for you. you go ahead and search.
>
> Flanking- positioning of the enemy between player and ally.
> Can you tell me where it says you need to be in 15' range?
You can keep repeating your claim but until you back it up with evidence, the claim is worthless. Do the work to support your claim or stop making the claim.
And yes, CA was broken last year. It wasn't being given at all That was fixed April of 2018 I know this because I found the patch notes.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/10882324-patch-notes:-version:-nw.95.20180306e.9
Here is a thread from Beta way back in 2013 talking about CA not being granted at range:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/480972/how-do-wizards-get-combat-advantage
So when I say that it has always worked like this, there is something to back it instead of just demanding people take my word for it.
If you have an issue with the post, simply ignore it, im claiming an answer from the devs and as far as im concern you aint one of them, i'll stop when i see a dev say "this is how CA works, even thou its not specified anywhere". which also would be worrying the fact they add items to the game that would be obsolette in their system.
I do not think that you're wrong in asking for some needed clarification on how CA bonus works i.e to mention the specifics, but tbh you're preaching to the choir since CA was always something that you get to understand as you go and play around. Same like jumping on things. I mean, it's just a part of the gameplay and an integral part of combat since NWO's inception...
It never specifically says how high you can jump on a box. CA was always there when you get close enough to enter the battle stance if I remember correctly, but you do need to have a relation between you and the opposing player in order to maintain the CA bonus.
It was always on so-so melee range, never did it work on ranged attack before unless you come close to the point of attack where CA activates. In dungeons, yes. But here's the thing. Each of that CA bonus was kind of different. The reason why you always had so much CA was because of how different all that CA was working in relation to each class, and they never had party-wise ICD, only class-wise ICD.. Eventually, this got fixed or changed so that only one class gives CA and the others do not overlap (one CA bonus was enough, if one CA bonus is on, no other bonus may apply - sounds logical, but wasn't always like this). It was such a huge, huge problem for some GWFs to use "mark" since it was not the highest dps encounter, so it always fell on Wizards to give CA bonus and that mechanic is here to this day. Well, teleport back, teleport forward, voila CA bonus again. You should be having around 280K HP - 300k HP anyways if you want to utilize Tenebrous enchantment that gives 8% necrotic damage as hp percentage... It's a Win-Win situation.
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The way i see it
CA is something that you need to work on in order to get its benefits. It is a very big damage bonus, too. And you only need to be close during the application of the power, especially if it is a dot. You only need it during the casting, after which you can teleport away and find another good position to cast the power again.
Perhaps developers can work/rework the description a bit, but this should be the case with all powers. I just do not think that this is such a big problem as you make it to sound.
The way I see it, CA should put a bit more focus on positioning and strategy party-wise. And I do think that it's a good thing that people have to actually work to make their damage, instead of just standing around and spamming buttons. Same with tanks, they rarely go around or try to activate all 4 scorpions at once in LOMM even if you tell them how... I played with a lot of people and they rarely, if ever, activate all 4 scorpions. Or in CR, people do not avoid red orbs and call "bugged". Or in ME runs, Barbarians or Warlocks just rush all the way and activate all Rune Banes... Or worse yet, in Watcher runs / all bane debuffs. Once I got 2 x Defense/Power reduction and one Barbarian activated Lord of Longing...
So, I do not look kindly to such scenarios where people do not want to use a bit of Action combat style powers. This MMO at least allows such a scenario and it should use it fully, so that it benefits and gradually rewards a more dynamic composition and active gameplay, instead of just "imma stand here and have all benefits forever". This was okay before, but now it changed and I do think it's time to go with the flow on this one.
Cheers!
I can already easily do lmm without worrying about CA, but that doesn't neccesarily mean its working as intended, until i get a response on how it's supposed to work and not just speculations, i'll stand by my post.
Arguing whether it's better gameplay to be close or not, is pointless. Trying to say the pre-16 gameplay was one way, so post-m16 gameplay should be the same, is pointless. If people want to play at range there is nothing wrong with that.
One way to test this would be to have a friend party with you, stand on the other side of a dummy and let you attack as you move further away. ACT logs would be helpful if you know the maths, but just screenshots w/o the CA dmg indicators I think would be sufficient evidence of the claim that positioning/CA isn't working past X distance.
The gear is just a bad design, same as the old Ring of Rising fortitude.
ETA if the devs want to change how it works, that is their prerogative, and really it would be to my benefit. But a future change doesnt mean players can just decide what they want to consider a bug without providing a shred of evidence.
So until i get a response from julia or any of the team members, not gonna waste more time going on with this. You could be right and could be wrong but thats not my point here, my only concern is to confirm whether its working as intended or not.
Why does it have a range? The way this particular combat advantage system was built is purely on flanking positioning and doesn't take into account if the player is engaged in combat with the enemy or not. If we were to look at a system with no distance check what you would see is that just having another player running around somewhere in a zone you're in would be giving you combat advantage against your targets, even when the player isn't in visual range of you.
We aren't in a place where we could spend the time/resources to redesign how combat advantage is structured to change its functionality to not need a distance check, although there is always the potential to do so in the future. For now it does need to have a distance check.
That said, 20 feet is too restrictive so we will look into extending it to 85 feet since the typical max range of a player power is 80 feet.
There is always the potential in the future to do a bigger pass on combat advantage to improve the base mechanic itself so that range doesn't have to be a factor, but for now there isn't room for that in the near term.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k