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Combat advantage by positioning.

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  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:



    Not sure what you smoke, but i dont smoke and dont try to push me into it aswel. Tnx but no, like i said, i have typos from typing fast or thinking in something specific, you started being rude, im only paying you back, hope you enjoying it.

    I was rude and you get back to me? this is my first post to you:

    Here your question:
    lardeson said:


    the only way to prove someone wrong is by testing, i just went on preview and the area was exactly the same as in melee range. so what am i missing?

    My reply:
    micky1p00 said:


    Area of a circle sector depends on the angle and radius. In this case the angle remains the same, lets assume 90 degrees or pi/2

    Area = r^2 * angle / 2


    Currently (assuming radius 15)

    Area = (15^2 * pi /2) / 2 = 176 squared feet

    After the change (assuming radius 85)

    Area = (85^2 * pi /2) / 2 = 5674 squared feet

    This means an area larger by 32 times where a person can stand and get CA.


    Or without math, if you can stand on a pizza slice, if you take a slice from a single person mini pizza, you get a small slice. If you get a slice from the largest pizza in the world, you get a large slice...

    Where do you see anything rude? Simple explanation to someone who wrote that area stays the same.

    But please do tell me where all those others things come from, where I've said anyone is a bad player, or forced anyone to play in some way.
    I'm waiting.
    "large area = less skill" thats enough.

    You are right sir, completely right, brilliant, anyone that doesn't play at melee is trash and doesn't know anything about the game and has no skills.

    That should make you happy.
    Where is that an insult or saying that players are bad? If a player has larger area to stand in, it's easier, it's as simple as that. This is why in many games I play whatever is easier and gave up on some games I loved to play. That what happens when age comes and reflexes and coordination of a sloth.

    Where I've forced anyone to play in any way? Said anyone is bad? Or said something different to others? You have a personal problem and started with insults

    Also it's 5 posts AFTER you started with the insults.
    So try again, and show me where I've started, and not you, because your first reply to me was an insult.
    Insult for calling you a professor while trying to lecture me on basic maths? Ok, who was the one that said someone had a syndrome? and where is my insult?

    You saying that someone is less skillful cos of them playing a certain way is not very respectful to say, not to mention its very subjective. Your first comment in the post was about people having no skills if they play in a wider area.
    You repeatedly wrote a basic math mistake. I took the time and explained why and how. How I'm supposed to know that you are genius engineer? I get it, this is what I get for actually putting the time and trying to not just throw "you are wrong" but actually explain. I will learn from this mistake.

    Ah so all those "professor", "spitting theories" were compliments right?

    "or are you just here spitting theories? going to 80ft doesn't increase ur area, the moment u move away from the right position you stop getting CA, which means u still need to position properly to get that 90 degree area. So yes just the same as if you were actually at melee range, nothing changes, anything else professor?"


    What my first comment in what post? I wrote that it takes less skill to remain in a large area vs small area.
    Where I wrote that people have no skill, or bad players or whatever? Please do quote me.
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:



    Not sure what you smoke, but i dont smoke and dont try to push me into it aswel. Tnx but no, like i said, i have typos from typing fast or thinking in something specific, you started being rude, im only paying you back, hope you enjoying it.

    I was rude and you get back to me? this is my first post to you:

    Here your question:
    lardeson said:


    the only way to prove someone wrong is by testing, i just went on preview and the area was exactly the same as in melee range. so what am i missing?

    My reply:
    micky1p00 said:


    Area of a circle sector depends on the angle and radius. In this case the angle remains the same, lets assume 90 degrees or pi/2

    Area = r^2 * angle / 2


    Currently (assuming radius 15)

    Area = (15^2 * pi /2) / 2 = 176 squared feet

    After the change (assuming radius 85)

    Area = (85^2 * pi /2) / 2 = 5674 squared feet

    This means an area larger by 32 times where a person can stand and get CA.


    Or without math, if you can stand on a pizza slice, if you take a slice from a single person mini pizza, you get a small slice. If you get a slice from the largest pizza in the world, you get a large slice...

    Where do you see anything rude? Simple explanation to someone who wrote that area stays the same.

    But please do tell me where all those others things come from, where I've said anyone is a bad player, or forced anyone to play in some way.
    I'm waiting.
    "large area = less skill" thats enough.

    You are right sir, completely right, brilliant, anyone that doesn't play at melee is trash and doesn't know anything about the game and has no skills.

    That should make you happy.
    Where is that an insult or saying that players are bad? If a player has larger area to stand in, it's easier, it's as simple as that. This is why in many games I play whatever is easier and gave up on some games I loved to play. That what happens when age comes and reflexes and coordination of a sloth.

    Where I've forced anyone to play in any way? Said anyone is bad? Or said something different to others? You have a personal problem and started with insults

    Also it's 5 posts AFTER you started with the insults.
    So try again, and show me where I've started, and not you, because your first reply to me was an insult.
    Insult for calling you a professor while trying to lecture me on basic maths? Ok, who was the one that said someone had a syndrome? and where is my insult?

    You saying that someone is less skillful cos of them playing a certain way is not very respectful to say, not to mention its very subjective. Your first comment in the post was about people having no skills if they play in a wider area.
    You repeatedly wrote a basic math mistake. I took the time and explained why and how. How I'm supposed to know that you are genius engineer? I get it, this is what I get for actually putting the time and trying to not just throw "you are wrong" but actually explain. I will learn from this mistake.

    Ah so all those "professor", "spitting theories" were compliments right?

    "or are you just here spitting theories? going to 80ft doesn't increase ur area, the moment u move away from the right position you stop getting CA, which means u still need to position properly to get that 90 degree area. So yes just the same as if you were actually at melee range, nothing changes, anything else professor?"


    What my first comment in what post? I wrote that it takes less skill to remain in a large area vs small area.
    Where I wrote that people have no skill, or bad players or whatever? Please do quote me.
    Ok, whatever makes you happy, you were right, i was wrong about everything, sorry. happy?
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:



    Not sure what you smoke, but i dont smoke and dont try to push me into it aswel. Tnx but no, like i said, i have typos from typing fast or thinking in something specific, you started being rude, im only paying you back, hope you enjoying it.

    I was rude and you get back to me? this is my first post to you:

    Here your question:
    lardeson said:


    the only way to prove someone wrong is by testing, i just went on preview and the area was exactly the same as in melee range. so what am i missing?

    My reply:
    micky1p00 said:


    Area of a circle sector depends on the angle and radius. In this case the angle remains the same, lets assume 90 degrees or pi/2

    Area = r^2 * angle / 2


    Currently (assuming radius 15)

    Area = (15^2 * pi /2) / 2 = 176 squared feet

    After the change (assuming radius 85)

    Area = (85^2 * pi /2) / 2 = 5674 squared feet

    This means an area larger by 32 times where a person can stand and get CA.


    Or without math, if you can stand on a pizza slice, if you take a slice from a single person mini pizza, you get a small slice. If you get a slice from the largest pizza in the world, you get a large slice...

    Where do you see anything rude? Simple explanation to someone who wrote that area stays the same.

    But please do tell me where all those others things come from, where I've said anyone is a bad player, or forced anyone to play in some way.
    I'm waiting.
    "large area = less skill" thats enough.

    You are right sir, completely right, brilliant, anyone that doesn't play at melee is trash and doesn't know anything about the game and has no skills.

    That should make you happy.
    Where is that an insult or saying that players are bad? If a player has larger area to stand in, it's easier, it's as simple as that. This is why in many games I play whatever is easier and gave up on some games I loved to play. That what happens when age comes and reflexes and coordination of a sloth.

    Where I've forced anyone to play in any way? Said anyone is bad? Or said something different to others? You have a personal problem and started with insults

    Also it's 5 posts AFTER you started with the insults.
    So try again, and show me where I've started, and not you, because your first reply to me was an insult.
    Insult for calling you a professor while trying to lecture me on basic maths? Ok, who was the one that said someone had a syndrome? and where is my insult?

    You saying that someone is less skillful cos of them playing a certain way is not very respectful to say, not to mention its very subjective. Your first comment in the post was about people having no skills if they play in a wider area.
    You repeatedly wrote a basic math mistake. I took the time and explained why and how. How I'm supposed to know that you are genius engineer? I get it, this is what I get for actually putting the time and trying to not just throw "you are wrong" but actually explain. I will learn from this mistake.

    Ah so all those "professor", "spitting theories" were compliments right?

    "or are you just here spitting theories? going to 80ft doesn't increase ur area, the moment u move away from the right position you stop getting CA, which means u still need to position properly to get that 90 degree area. So yes just the same as if you were actually at melee range, nothing changes, anything else professor?"


    What my first comment in what post? I wrote that it takes less skill to remain in a large area vs small area.
    Where I wrote that people have no skill, or bad players or whatever? Please do quote me.
    Ok, whatever makes you happy, you were right, i was wrong about everything, sorry. happy?
    No, not happy at all, but thanks for asking, you claimed I've forced players into some ways, called players bad players, etc.. please quote me.
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:



    Not sure what you smoke, but i dont smoke and dont try to push me into it aswel. Tnx but no, like i said, i have typos from typing fast or thinking in something specific, you started being rude, im only paying you back, hope you enjoying it.

    I was rude and you get back to me? this is my first post to you:

    Here your question:
    lardeson said:


    the only way to prove someone wrong is by testing, i just went on preview and the area was exactly the same as in melee range. so what am i missing?

    My reply:
    micky1p00 said:


    Area of a circle sector depends on the angle and radius. In this case the angle remains the same, lets assume 90 degrees or pi/2

    Area = r^2 * angle / 2


    Currently (assuming radius 15)

    Area = (15^2 * pi /2) / 2 = 176 squared feet

    After the change (assuming radius 85)

    Area = (85^2 * pi /2) / 2 = 5674 squared feet

    This means an area larger by 32 times where a person can stand and get CA.


    Or without math, if you can stand on a pizza slice, if you take a slice from a single person mini pizza, you get a small slice. If you get a slice from the largest pizza in the world, you get a large slice...

    Where do you see anything rude? Simple explanation to someone who wrote that area stays the same.

    But please do tell me where all those others things come from, where I've said anyone is a bad player, or forced anyone to play in some way.
    I'm waiting.
    "large area = less skill" thats enough.

    You are right sir, completely right, brilliant, anyone that doesn't play at melee is trash and doesn't know anything about the game and has no skills.

    That should make you happy.
    Where is that an insult or saying that players are bad? If a player has larger area to stand in, it's easier, it's as simple as that. This is why in many games I play whatever is easier and gave up on some games I loved to play. That what happens when age comes and reflexes and coordination of a sloth.

    Where I've forced anyone to play in any way? Said anyone is bad? Or said something different to others? You have a personal problem and started with insults

    Also it's 5 posts AFTER you started with the insults.
    So try again, and show me where I've started, and not you, because your first reply to me was an insult.
    Insult for calling you a professor while trying to lecture me on basic maths? Ok, who was the one that said someone had a syndrome? and where is my insult?

    You saying that someone is less skillful cos of them playing a certain way is not very respectful to say, not to mention its very subjective. Your first comment in the post was about people having no skills if they play in a wider area.
    You repeatedly wrote a basic math mistake. I took the time and explained why and how. How I'm supposed to know that you are genius engineer? I get it, this is what I get for actually putting the time and trying to not just throw "you are wrong" but actually explain. I will learn from this mistake.

    Ah so all those "professor", "spitting theories" were compliments right?

    "or are you just here spitting theories? going to 80ft doesn't increase ur area, the moment u move away from the right position you stop getting CA, which means u still need to position properly to get that 90 degree area. So yes just the same as if you were actually at melee range, nothing changes, anything else professor?"


    What my first comment in what post? I wrote that it takes less skill to remain in a large area vs small area.
    Where I wrote that people have no skill, or bad players or whatever? Please do quote me.
    Ok, whatever makes you happy, you were right, i was wrong about everything, sorry. happy?
    No, not happy at all, but thanks for asking, you claimed I've forced players into some ways, called players bad players, etc.. please quote me.
    I dont have all day to argue with you here xd, if you calling someone to be skilless, u are literally saying they are bad players, especially with some other comments saying the "good dpses stay at melee" "if you dont stay at melee you are a bad dps"

    But yes, not wasting more time here, i already apologised, if you aint happy, not my prob lol

    And like i said previously, in every other mod, almost all classes could give CA, which means u could be at any place on the field and get CA, apparently that dint bother anyone nor determined how skillful a player you were, just now that it requires positioning. Ah we also not talking about the fact that TR just needs to go into stealth to get CA, yes so much skills. OK, thats enough
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:



    Not sure what you smoke, but i dont smoke and dont try to push me into it aswel. Tnx but no, like i said, i have typos from typing fast or thinking in something specific, you started being rude, im only paying you back, hope you enjoying it.

    I was rude and you get back to me? this is my first post to you:

    Here your question:
    lardeson said:


    the only way to prove someone wrong is by testing, i just went on preview and the area was exactly the same as in melee range. so what am i missing?

    My reply:
    micky1p00 said:


    Area of a circle sector depends on the angle and radius. In this case the angle remains the same, lets assume 90 degrees or pi/2

    Area = r^2 * angle / 2


    Currently (assuming radius 15)

    Area = (15^2 * pi /2) / 2 = 176 squared feet

    After the change (assuming radius 85)

    Area = (85^2 * pi /2) / 2 = 5674 squared feet

    This means an area larger by 32 times where a person can stand and get CA.


    Or without math, if you can stand on a pizza slice, if you take a slice from a single person mini pizza, you get a small slice. If you get a slice from the largest pizza in the world, you get a large slice...

    Where do you see anything rude? Simple explanation to someone who wrote that area stays the same.

    But please do tell me where all those others things come from, where I've said anyone is a bad player, or forced anyone to play in some way.
    I'm waiting.
    "large area = less skill" thats enough.

    You are right sir, completely right, brilliant, anyone that doesn't play at melee is trash and doesn't know anything about the game and has no skills.

    That should make you happy.
    Where is that an insult or saying that players are bad? If a player has larger area to stand in, it's easier, it's as simple as that. This is why in many games I play whatever is easier and gave up on some games I loved to play. That what happens when age comes and reflexes and coordination of a sloth.

    Where I've forced anyone to play in any way? Said anyone is bad? Or said something different to others? You have a personal problem and started with insults

    Also it's 5 posts AFTER you started with the insults.
    So try again, and show me where I've started, and not you, because your first reply to me was an insult.
    Insult for calling you a professor while trying to lecture me on basic maths? Ok, who was the one that said someone had a syndrome? and where is my insult?

    You saying that someone is less skillful cos of them playing a certain way is not very respectful to say, not to mention its very subjective. Your first comment in the post was about people having no skills if they play in a wider area.
    You repeatedly wrote a basic math mistake. I took the time and explained why and how. How I'm supposed to know that you are genius engineer? I get it, this is what I get for actually putting the time and trying to not just throw "you are wrong" but actually explain. I will learn from this mistake.

    Ah so all those "professor", "spitting theories" were compliments right?

    "or are you just here spitting theories? going to 80ft doesn't increase ur area, the moment u move away from the right position you stop getting CA, which means u still need to position properly to get that 90 degree area. So yes just the same as if you were actually at melee range, nothing changes, anything else professor?"


    What my first comment in what post? I wrote that it takes less skill to remain in a large area vs small area.
    Where I wrote that people have no skill, or bad players or whatever? Please do quote me.
    Ok, whatever makes you happy, you were right, i was wrong about everything, sorry. happy?
    No, not happy at all, but thanks for asking, you claimed I've forced players into some ways, called players bad players, etc.. please quote me.
    I dont have all day to argue with you here xd, if you calling someone to be skilless, u are literally saying they are bad players, especially with some other comments saying the "good dpses stay at melee" "if you dont stay at melee you are a bad dps"

    But yes, not wasting more time here, i already apologised, if you aint happy, not my prob lol
    I didn't say this:
    "good dpses stay at melee"

    Nor did I say this
    "if you dont stay at melee you are a bad dps"

    Please do find the above.

    Nor I called anyone skilles....


    The only single reference Iv'e made to skill is that large area requires less skill than small area to stay in. Is there a dispute in this? Or I'm the only that it is easier for me to stay in large zone than small one?
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:

    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:



    Not sure what you smoke, but i dont smoke and dont try to push me into it aswel. Tnx but no, like i said, i have typos from typing fast or thinking in something specific, you started being rude, im only paying you back, hope you enjoying it.

    I was rude and you get back to me? this is my first post to you:

    Here your question:
    lardeson said:


    the only way to prove someone wrong is by testing, i just went on preview and the area was exactly the same as in melee range. so what am i missing?

    My reply:
    micky1p00 said:


    Area of a circle sector depends on the angle and radius. In this case the angle remains the same, lets assume 90 degrees or pi/2

    Area = r^2 * angle / 2


    Currently (assuming radius 15)

    Area = (15^2 * pi /2) / 2 = 176 squared feet

    After the change (assuming radius 85)

    Area = (85^2 * pi /2) / 2 = 5674 squared feet

    This means an area larger by 32 times where a person can stand and get CA.


    Or without math, if you can stand on a pizza slice, if you take a slice from a single person mini pizza, you get a small slice. If you get a slice from the largest pizza in the world, you get a large slice...

    Where do you see anything rude? Simple explanation to someone who wrote that area stays the same.

    But please do tell me where all those others things come from, where I've said anyone is a bad player, or forced anyone to play in some way.
    I'm waiting.
    "large area = less skill" thats enough.

    You are right sir, completely right, brilliant, anyone that doesn't play at melee is trash and doesn't know anything about the game and has no skills.

    That should make you happy.
    Where is that an insult or saying that players are bad? If a player has larger area to stand in, it's easier, it's as simple as that. This is why in many games I play whatever is easier and gave up on some games I loved to play. That what happens when age comes and reflexes and coordination of a sloth.

    Where I've forced anyone to play in any way? Said anyone is bad? Or said something different to others? You have a personal problem and started with insults

    Also it's 5 posts AFTER you started with the insults.
    So try again, and show me where I've started, and not you, because your first reply to me was an insult.
    Insult for calling you a professor while trying to lecture me on basic maths? Ok, who was the one that said someone had a syndrome? and where is my insult?

    You saying that someone is less skillful cos of them playing a certain way is not very respectful to say, not to mention its very subjective. Your first comment in the post was about people having no skills if they play in a wider area.
    You repeatedly wrote a basic math mistake. I took the time and explained why and how. How I'm supposed to know that you are genius engineer? I get it, this is what I get for actually putting the time and trying to not just throw "you are wrong" but actually explain. I will learn from this mistake.

    Ah so all those "professor", "spitting theories" were compliments right?

    "or are you just here spitting theories? going to 80ft doesn't increase ur area, the moment u move away from the right position you stop getting CA, which means u still need to position properly to get that 90 degree area. So yes just the same as if you were actually at melee range, nothing changes, anything else professor?"


    What my first comment in what post? I wrote that it takes less skill to remain in a large area vs small area.
    Where I wrote that people have no skill, or bad players or whatever? Please do quote me.
    Ok, whatever makes you happy, you were right, i was wrong about everything, sorry. happy?
    No, not happy at all, but thanks for asking, you claimed I've forced players into some ways, called players bad players, etc.. please quote me.
    I dont have all day to argue with you here xd, if you calling someone to be skilless, u are literally saying they are bad players, especially with some other comments saying the "good dpses stay at melee" "if you dont stay at melee you are a bad dps"

    But yes, not wasting more time here, i already apologised, if you aint happy, not my prob lol
    I didn't say this:
    "good dpses stay at melee"

    Nor did I say this
    "if you dont stay at melee you are a bad dps"

    Please do find the above.

    Nor I called anyone skilles....


    The only single reference Iv'e made to skill is that large area requires less skill than small area to stay in. Is there a dispute in this? Or I'm the only that it is easier to stay in large zone than small one?
    I also stated that in small zones, its relatively easier to do any maneuvers or adjust anything. Whether it takes more or less skill, that depends on the fight, not for me to judge
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User
    lardeson said:

    Ah we also not talking about the fact that TR just needs to go into stealth to get CA, yes so much skills.

    @micky1p00
    if you think Stealth is useless, I'll trade you "press Tab for free CA" for eternal commode squatting...

    :trollface:

  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    lardeson said:


    And like i said previously, in every other mod, almost all classes could give CA, which means u could be at any place on the field and get CA, apparently that dint bother anyone nor determined how skillful a player you were, just now that it requires positioning. Ah we also not talking about the fact that TR just needs to go into stealth to get CA, yes so much skills. OK, thats enough

    Previous mods a good tank would mark and give CA. That solved the issue for everyone. Except that if something doesn't require anything special to do, then why would it take more skill?

    Yes, TR need only to stealth, hence it takes less skill to do that one encounter from CA. Though it adds consideration to the rotation, to which encounter grant that CA. If you try to poke that at me, two things, one I don't play TR this mod, and second there are much more skilled players than me, on every single class in the game.
    Compared to them I'm not just bad, but extraordinarily bad, so relatively bad, I'm not comfortable to running with. Yet, it is what it is. If I had the same skill as 9 years ago, I would have been still playing SC2, and If I had better skill 9 years ago I wouldn't be a scrub at it back then.
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:


    And like i said previously, in every other mod, almost all classes could give CA, which means u could be at any place on the field and get CA, apparently that dint bother anyone nor determined how skillful a player you were, just now that it requires positioning. Ah we also not talking about the fact that TR just needs to go into stealth to get CA, yes so much skills. OK, thats enough

    Previous mods a good tank would mark and give CA. That solved the issue for everyone. Except that if something doesn't require anything special to do, then why would it take more skill?

    Yes, TR need only to stealth, hence it takes less skill to do that one encounter from CA. Though it adds consideration to the rotation, to which encounter grant that CA. If you try to poke that at me, two things, one I don't play TR this mod, and second there are much more skilled players than me, on every single class in the game.
    Compared to them I'm not just bad, but extraordinarily bad, so relatively bad, I'm not comfortable to running with. Yet, it is what it is. If I had the same skill as 9 years ago, I would have been still playing SC2, and If I had better skill 9 years ago I wouldn't be a scrub at it back then.
    That was just an example on how it makes little to know sense arguing whether a player is more is less skillful just by their position. Even now most of the elite groups use a scorpion and dont have to worry about positioning or anything, the skill we talking about here only exists on paper, but realistically, things have always been that way. Play a dungeon, figure the mechanic, build ur character, burn bosses and gtg, no skills or anything anywhere, so to talk about skill at this point and just basing it on ur positioning, is something i cant agree with.

    And yeah this time, for real, sorry about any disrespects earlier, dont like disrespecting elder people cos im in my 20s and can assume you are older than me.
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    micky1p00 said:

    lardeson said:


    And like i said previously, in every other mod, almost all classes could give CA, which means u could be at any place on the field and get CA, apparently that dint bother anyone nor determined how skillful a player you were, just now that it requires positioning. Ah we also not talking about the fact that TR just needs to go into stealth to get CA, yes so much skills. OK, thats enough

    Previous mods a good tank would mark and give CA. That solved the issue for everyone. Except that if something doesn't require anything special to do, then why would it take more skill?
    Hey now, I'll have you know that pressing Tab is a very difficult skill for some GFs.
    It was such a difficult skill, it was synonymous with floor inspecting GFs too!
    :trollface:

    (Also worth noting that OPs, alongside DCs, were the only classes without any force CA skills in their toolkit, but it didn't matter when you were going to pair them with a class that had some way to force CA. Or unless you somehow teamed with potato teammates, of which in those cases, you were better off just playing DPS in those cases because they would 99% not understand what buff timing was).
    micky1p00 said:


    Previous mods a good tank would mark and give CA. That solved the issue for everyone. Except that if something doesn't require anything special to do, then why would it take more skill?

    If you want a better comparison, look at Aspect of the Pack.
    Which was "stand near a companion or some non potato teammate for free CA for the entire team".

    Or Nightmare Wizardry, which was a "score a Crit for free CA on target" in the days which high Crit chance was a thing.

    (And before people say, "but Renegade was the buff path", it was the DPS path Mod 15 because of Uncontrolled Obliteration. And before Mod 15 but after Mod 6, playing Renegade was also the superior DPS path in the strange event you were running in a team without anybody who could position for CA or had the brains to use force CA skill/ability. And before people say "you needed 5 points for effective Nightmare Wizardry", you could get consistent CA even with 2-3 points in Nightmare Wizardry and a modest 60-70% Crit Chance).

  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    It is relatively easy to show that it takes more skill in a system where there is a smaller area in which you can get CA than in a system where there is a smaller area in which you can get CA.

    Lets say for example, there are 2 people in a room, 1 of the people is positioned on 1 side of the boss. The other person does not know how CA works and their position is random. Each person occupies 1 unit of area.

    The room is 200 units by 200 units, the boss is in the middle. In the hypothetical situation where the arc to gain CA has a radius of 15', the amount of available space the person has to position for CA is, as Janne pointed out, 176 units.

    176/40000= 0.44% chance to randomly be positioned for CA.

    In the situation where the Arc for CA has a radius of 85', the amount of available space is 5764 units.

    5764/40000=14.41%.

    So the hypothetically randomly positioned player is not only more likely to have CA, they are significantly more likely to have it. Being significantly more likely to have a large damage buff at random than before, means there is less skill involved, simply because more people have CA without even trying to have it. Being more likely to do something without being aware you should be doing it = less skillful gameplay, its that simple.
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User

    It is relatively easy to show that it takes more skill in a system where there is a smaller area in which you can get CA than in a system where there is a smaller area in which you can get CA.

    Lets say for example, there are 2 people in a room, 1 of the people is positioned on 1 side of the boss. The other person does not know how CA works and their position is random. Each person occupies 1 unit of area.

    The room is 200 units by 200 units, the boss is in the middle. In the hypothetical situation where the arc to gain CA has a radius of 15', the amount of available space the person has to position for CA is, as Janne pointed out, 176 units.

    176/40000= 0.44% chance to randomly be positioned for CA.

    In the situation where the Arc for CA has a radius of 85', the amount of available space is 5764 units.

    5764/40000=14.41%.

    So the hypothetically randomly positioned player is not only more likely to have CA, they are significantly more likely to have it. Being significantly more likely to have a large damage buff at random than before, means there is less skill involved, simply because more people have CA without even trying to have it. Being more likely to do something without being aware you should be doing it = less skillful gameplay, its that simple.

    That there u just discribed is called knowledge, not skill. Skill is the capacity to perform something, knowledge is knowing what or how to do it. Which means that skill is ur ability to put ur knowledge into practice, so if at first you dont have the knowledge, we cant even talk about skill, not to mention that all this is hypothetical.
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    7 pages and 192 replies to read to figure out wtf is going on here.



  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    nm
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    Melee circumference for CA radius bonus is easier and faster to obtain and maintain a sector than a ranged circumference CA radius due to a fact that you are going to spend less time positioning and repositioning as a melee class in contrast to a ranged class.
    Basically, melee class will easily fit and move from one small radian to another and directly affect radius by dynamically changing the cone arc for a ranged class.
    Ranged class radian is longer than melee class radian. As such it is harder for a ranged class to maintain CA bonus due to the sheer amount of steps needed to find the sweet CA spot.

    For melee class that is 2-3 steps.
    For ranged class that is 20-30 steps.

    Conclusion is that melee classes have the upper hand in terms of positioning and relative CA repositioning since they will often hold aggro, and the point of a circle always falls near them, leaving them to be the fastest to make a circle around the boss and as such they hold all the cards for ranged unit's relative damage increased by CA positioning.
    Since they hold aggro for the most time, healers will often focus on them and keep their HP at a satisfactory level.
    In contrast, this means that it takes less time spent on walking and more time spent on maintaining CA bonus on a melee range.

    And this is only, and only for the boss that is stationary like Worm or like Despair. For other bosses, nobody's at a serious advantage, especially not in MOD16. The only boss that needs a ranged class to get defeated with ease is Lord of Regret.

    Furthermore, for some bosses you have to stay close due to their cone attack AoE skills. When you are closer, it easier to evade.
    Scorpios have cone attacks, Trobriand has a cone attack, boss in Tuern has a cone attack, Despair has a cone attack that paralyzes, Lostmauth hits in a cone placing lava etc. It is easier to use one dodge instead of three to evade one such cone attack skill, so it's easier to stay at a close range.

    It is within reason to state that being at melee range puts you in less danger with certain types of bosses, so this can't be generalized and it depends on boss mechanics.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    This thread has only gotten worse over the past few pages.

    A couple of superficially conflicting but true points have been raised:

    Yes, an effective ranged CA allows for players phoning it in from across the room to have a better chance of enjoying CA without having to make some of the adjustments currently required.

    Yes, they are also vulnerable to losing their CA and having to waste time making a larger adjustment on their end if the tank and party do not oblige them with favorable positioning. Some posters here repeatedly discount this point since it should be simple enough for the tank or some other party member to make this work, but in practice no one cares about the person role-playing as a sniper instead of hanging out nearby.

    It was mentioned starting many pages ago and is still correct that the long-range CA change can be expected to buff bad players but will have virtually no impact on good ones, regardless of class, because they were already doing it right.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
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  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    As to add visuals here is what I have been suggesting that would allow for near 100% uptime of buffs. Remember, 90 degrees from 2 characters can get you 180 degrees of CA for ranged classes with this change. The Red and Yellow Area is where you would receive positional CA from the Healer and Tank in this scenario. If the DPS group groups up in the CA areas you can see where healing could be localized to 2 locations. With an OP tank that could add in a healing ability at necessary points you can easily cover healing of the second location if needing split heals in both locations. Lomm and on this strategy isn't as viable but almost all earlier dungeons this would work very well.

    https://imgur.com/H6AdoGx
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  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Member Posts: 1,654 Arc User
    This is fun. It's like sitting through a lecture done through a speed dating style.

    I've learned about CA, positioning and it's importance in skill based gaming, geometry, grammar, presentational graphics, and so much more. I dare to dream the places this topic will continue to delve through.

    Carry on.
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    vorphied said:


    It was mentioned starting many pages ago and is still correct that the long-range CA change can be expected to buff bad players but will have virtually no impact on good ones, regardless of class, because they were already doing it right.

    The whole premise that a bad player gets a bit more damage accidentally is a silly point because they are inherently bad based on how they play and how they utilize their builds. A bad player also gets random CA bonus even on close range so it doesn't really make much difference. Although I think it's a bit harsh to give them an etiquette of a ''bad player''

    This game is based on how much you know and timing is everything, but it can all go downhill unless there are people who can follow your gameplay style.

    In dual parties for people who like to go solo against, oh, let's say Regret, long reach CA is a great thing. Especially if I choose to play on Thaum build instead of the Arcanist.

    And I think I could be the only person on the server who does this type of a thing because I'm bored.

    The 2nd good thing about CA bonus is when the party went a bit ahead and I have to reach them and I can initialize the fight from afar whilst having CA bonus.

    And that's literally the only benefit I can see with the inclusion of the new CA reach where it will actually matter. Maybe in some events with falling platforms or similar, too.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    Theoretical thesis vs practical reality. Nice presentation there. In a practical scenario, melee will have an easier time to recover CA position, lesser area to dodge red. Range has a larger area to dodge red but harder time to recover CA position. In my opinion, both require skill, just that in a different way.

    Skill is subjective to everyone anyway. Some people may think playing their character in this way is skillful while other might think playing the other way is skillful. It really comes down to how u like to play and that alone is different for everyone. Its just unfair to say by playing a specific way is skillful or is the only way to play the game.

    Anyway, CA changes are fair in my opinion. CA are meant to add bonus to your attack when u flank someone. Flanking doesn't mean u have to do it at melee.
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