It takes more skill to position in a smaller area than a larger area. As you increase the area behind the boss, it becomes easier and easier to fit into that space, thus making it easier and easier to get CA. With a range of 85', its very easy to accidentally get CA by simply standing in that circle segment. Currently positioning for CA is a deliberate choice, not something you would do accidentally.
Without a doubt correct (unless the Devs do not just increase the CA area as a simply larger arc), but I fail to see how you could derive a quality feature for a "good dps" from the ability to stay in the CA area. There are much more things going on in a fight that require good observation skills.
The hit less thing is a non argument, since 1) in the newest content it isn't true (his attacks that will hit you are unavoidable and occur across the entire map) and 2) Healers rely on AoE heals, if you are outside of the area you are just wasting their divinity.This isn't a game where healers have strong single target heals.
Even though the bosses in LoMM have those attacks, the healer argument is at least moot. Players who go there know what will happen and noone - let's assume we do not talk about trolls who want to spoil the fun of others and ruin the run - would stay outside the healer's range in these situations. In other situations the healer argument may be invalid. If the ranged dps decides to stay out of the enemies attacks for a better damage impact of his powers, he does this deliberatly and trades the healer's aoe healing spells for the relative safety of his position away from the boss. (We could talk about how "good" (observation skills!) a healer is in this situation who wastes his divinity for a ranged dps out of reach, but that's another point.)
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
I think CA should have remained at its previous range, it helps differentiate between good dps and bad dps.
Thats if you only play neverwinter, sure. Again lets see why its good to stand close to healers in Nw: - For the obvious heals - Some bosses have a hitbox that makes tanks useless (but not all, just some, so if you are basing ur logic only off tomm, its laughable) - In previous mods it was due to the massive buffs you got from close range, which are no longer in the game, so this isn't relevant anymore.
All in all, the only relevant reason to stay close to a healer these days is just for the heals and bosses that have an instance based hitbox, but what if you stay close to the healer, at a range where u still get heals but still abit far away from the group? this is possible and has nothing to do with you being a better dps or not, all it requires is a good group you usually run with and are willing to play along.
In every other game, lets take WoW for example, you do have strategies, alot of them, and none of them requires the ranged class to be at the same range as the tank. Dcuo is another example where healers can basically heal u from anythere on the field and its safer to let the tank do there job, while the dpses move from melee to range combat depending on the situations. So yes i repeat, only if you play neverwinter, u can determine whether a dps is good or not just by them playing at melee or range. But now lets be serious, all that was left in mod15, you can already run a scorpion in mod16, use certain gear, that will help u play both at melee or range when required, this is what strategy is, playing 100% at melee or range isn't a strategy, requires no skills nor knowledge, its a static gameplay, but yh if you enjoy such gameplay, thats all on you lol. I for one doesn't enjoy a static gameplay and will build my character in a way i can play at both range and melee when required. Your range in combat doesn't determine how good a dps you are, your knowledge of the game, mechanics and strategies thou, if it was a game that required more skills from players and not just having an OP shield you all the time, then im pretty sure u've want to move far away from bosses when they start hitting everyone at a close range, while heals cant completely heal the damage and you have no choice but to run away until boss is done spanking.
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Without a doubt correct (unless the Devs do not just increase the CA area as a simply larger arc), but I fail to see how you could derive a quality feature for a "good dps" from the ability to stay in the CA area. There are much more things going on in a fight that require good observation skills.
It does not matter if there is other stuff going on in the fight, by virtue of it being harder to remain inside of the arc at a smaller range, it requires more skill to do.
All of the old content is balanced around making everyone melee to do damage so mechanics ignore a lot of ranged classes.
Wrong. The HR's feat "Aspect of the pack" gave CA to every team member at ANY range. And everyone relied on that feat once a HR was in the team.
We are talking about positional CA though. Not abilities that give CA.
Dude, not even sure where to start with you, i have been trying to read all ur comments but they literally make no sense at this point. CA having a wider range will not give ranged classes any advantage in the game, we had CA at any range in every other mod, this makes no difference, a gameplay is not a written script, there are intervals where u'll need to be at melee and others where range is safer, thats why the need for CA to be unrestricted to just melee. Me moving back to 50 ft with no imminent danger, has nothing to do with me getting more damage, CA caps at 100% damage for all classes, increasing the range to 85ft will not make rangers go up to 185%, i will still be 100%, same for melee classes. So what is your whole point? where are you even trying to push it? I repeat, CA has been in the game forever, you could have it at any range, the only issue with mod16 is that there was a transition, where feats are now locked to paragons and you cant have certain feats that give you CA at any range if you chose a paragon over another. Whats so hard to understand here? Am i typing in chinese?
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
Without a doubt correct (unless the Devs do not just increase the CA area as a simply larger arc), but I fail to see how you could derive a quality feature for a "good dps" from the ability to stay in the CA area. There are much more things going on in a fight that require good observation skills.
It does not matter if there is other stuff going on in the fight, by virtue of it being harder to remain inside of the arc at a smaller range, it requires more skill to do.
It requires more skill to 100% stay at melee and be shielded? lol ok, now i can see why they had to nerf the push pull on cradle, the only mechanic that required some skill in the game and even now, people still cant complete it. I actually like the atropal fight better cos most heals cant save you from those mini aoes that will one shot u, so it actually requires abit more skill and reaction time, but im pretty sure you guys just prefer to go in there with 3 OPs and not do anything else. Easy peasy, gg
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Without a doubt correct (unless the Devs do not just increase the CA area as a simply larger arc), but I fail to see how you could derive a quality feature for a "good dps" from the ability to stay in the CA area. There are much more things going on in a fight that require good observation skills.
It does not matter if there is other stuff going on in the fight, by virtue of it being harder to remain inside of the arc at a smaller range, it requires more skill to do.
It requires more skill to 100% stay at melee and be shielded? lol ok, now i can see why they had to nerf the push pull on cradle, the only mechanic that required some skill in the game and even now, people still cant complete it. I actually like the atropal fight better cos most heals cant save you from those mini aoes that will one shot u, so it actually requires abit more skill and reaction time, but im pretty sure you guys just prefer to go in there with 3 OPs and not do anything else. Easy peasy, gg
3 OPs for what? Their shields don't stack. If this is the approach you going to take to running ToMM you will fail from your ignorance. I don't even count anything in m16 as content, but please show me how its better gameplay to stand at range than at melee, which is what I have been arguing. Anyone standing at range is a liability and I would really like to see someone spin it otherwise, with a good justification, because you can't do it.
Without a doubt correct (unless the Devs do not just increase the CA area as a simply larger arc), but I fail to see how you could derive a quality feature for a "good dps" from the ability to stay in the CA area. There are much more things going on in a fight that require good observation skills.
It does not matter if there is other stuff going on in the fight, by virtue of it being harder to remain inside of the arc at a smaller range, it requires more skill to do.
It requires more skill to 100% stay at melee and be shielded? lol ok, now i can see why they had to nerf the push pull on cradle, the only mechanic that required some skill in the game and even now, people still cant complete it. I actually like the atropal fight better cos most heals cant save you from those mini aoes that will one shot u, so it actually requires abit more skill and reaction time, but im pretty sure you guys just prefer to go in there with 3 OPs and not do anything else. Easy peasy, gg
Looking forward to watch you run ToMM.
As expected and like i said before, you are basing your argument off 1 dungeon and trust me, i'll run Tomm the way i want xd and when im done getting what i need, i'll eventually stop running it.
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Without a doubt correct (unless the Devs do not just increase the CA area as a simply larger arc), but I fail to see how you could derive a quality feature for a "good dps" from the ability to stay in the CA area. There are much more things going on in a fight that require good observation skills.
It does not matter if there is other stuff going on in the fight, by virtue of it being harder to remain inside of the arc at a smaller range, it requires more skill to do.
It requires more skill to 100% stay at melee and be shielded? lol ok, now i can see why they had to nerf the push pull on cradle, the only mechanic that required some skill in the game and even now, people still cant complete it. I actually like the atropal fight better cos most heals cant save you from those mini aoes that will one shot u, so it actually requires abit more skill and reaction time, but im pretty sure you guys just prefer to go in there with 3 OPs and not do anything else. Easy peasy, gg
Looking forward to watch you run ToMM.
As expected and like i said before, you are basing your argument off 1 dungeon and trust me, i'll run Tomm the way i want xd and when im done getting what i need, i'll eventually stop running it.
I am betting against you finishing phase 1 without a hard carry.
Without a doubt correct (unless the Devs do not just increase the CA area as a simply larger arc), but I fail to see how you could derive a quality feature for a "good dps" from the ability to stay in the CA area. There are much more things going on in a fight that require good observation skills.
It does not matter if there is other stuff going on in the fight, by virtue of it being harder to remain inside of the arc at a smaller range, it requires more skill to do.
It requires more skill to 100% stay at melee and be shielded? lol ok, now i can see why they had to nerf the push pull on cradle, the only mechanic that required some skill in the game and even now, people still cant complete it. I actually like the atropal fight better cos most heals cant save you from those mini aoes that will one shot u, so it actually requires abit more skill and reaction time, but im pretty sure you guys just prefer to go in there with 3 OPs and not do anything else. Easy peasy, gg
Looking forward to watch you run ToMM.
As expected and like i said before, you are basing your argument off 1 dungeon and trust me, i'll run Tomm the way i want xd and when im done getting what i need, i'll eventually stop running it.
I am betting against you finishing phase 1 without a hard carry.
Too bad you wont be able to tell whether i finished one or not and my cw is not precisely one to be carried, but thanks for your concerns.
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
c1k4ml3kc3 took and quoted a lot of responses out of context above. Not sure how to respond to a lot of them since none of responses include what I am responding towards and your responses mostly talk on a tangent of what I say. Lets give it a shot.
Out of the context? What?
What is the context in what you're trying to even argue about? You literally have zero arguments that apply to any context of the game and have made up entire thing in your head by making it sound horrendous that Ranged classes will have a chance to apply more CA damage at some distance. Furthermore, you completely disregard every argument that people have presented against your claims, including the fact that Ranged classes have their base weapon damage reduced in contrast to Melee classes.
People already gave some very solid arguments as in why all your claims, and I mean all of them, are false and untrue. But let's go into hypothetical based on your imagination because - why not? I have time.
What I am trying to get towards is not me saying we shouldn't have a strong ranged group in game.
But that IS what you are doing, and actively pursuing throughout all of your recent posts. It is literally what you are doing, and without any substance. Your whole agenda is based on this irrational fear and numbers that you drew out of your head. And because you have no case and got in so deep, now you pursue to make long texts in order to make yourself appear more plausible, which you're not achieving at all.
If they wanted to make the meta ranged all they had to do was increase the amount that ranged powers do and balance them.
Again this "META" thing. Why is "META" important, and furthermore, this whole concept and idea came out because of an oversight after taking away most of the CA bonuses which applied before, and not because there's this clandestine force in the dev group that wants to make Ranged classes sweet to use. The prime example of you harboring this irrational fear and making an elephant out of an fly. You can't get more casual and spontaneous than this.
"Guys, CA ok?" "Errr, gonna check." "Sweet!" "Errr, yeah we gonna increase a bit cause ranged classes got crippled" "Hell, yeah! Some love, finally"
And then, you...with "RaNgEd clAsSeS GetTiNg 50% mOr3 DaMAgE Is HypOTeTicaLLlyy Wr0ngeR" x 10 messages.
Some of the responses about range are due to the fact that currently we have in the past had a buff-debuff meta that the abilities of the buffs were local to melee range. CA is the only buff that is still local to melee range from that meta. All of the old content is balanced around making everyone melee to do damage so mechanics ignore a lot of ranged classes.
My head is starting to hurt based on just how many wrong and inconsistent sentences are placed in such a narrow space.
1. Not a single (de)buff was purely "local" to melee range nor exclusive to melee range. Not a single one in previous (de)buff meta. They could be player-inherent as in - personal buff only. What you meant here, and I'm making a wild guess, is that players have to stick together to get benefits, and as people told you already that's still the idea! If that's what you mean, have no fear! 2. CA was never a BUFF but rather a Combat Mechanic that's been available to everyone based either on the positioning or on Powers that would trigger that particular combat mechanic either for a single person or for any ally around. For something to be regarded as "BUFF" it needs to be seen as a specific class mechanic and potentially have an icon placed on the powers bar. CA is COMBAT inherent combat mechanic that's not melee exclusive nor was ever only given at a close range in any of the previous mods due to a fact that many classes had the ability to give "free CA" to anyone around. 3. Completely wrong! Entirety of the Glass Canon meta seriously hurt the gamestyle of many classes, leaving them vulnerable in close melee range, which led to more headaches in trying to figure out what an ideal class balance actually is in contrast to how classes operated ever since many PvPers, who are the worst of the bunch of QQers with a lot of $$, wanted to cripple all ranged classes. 1st on the attack was the control of the wizard, then it was HR's shooting powers, and then I stopped caring enough. And I'm glad that MOD16 put a hard reset on all mistakes that were going on in the past and has a somewhat nice foundation to build up from. However, what you preach is completely wrong.
This is the case since in the past they removed so much damage from the ranged classes that you failed the dps checks to make it through the content if you were ranged. The change of CA would be a straight buff to ranged class damage since melee classes and abilities have to be in CA range to be used.
Here you acknowledge that Ranged classes have been crippled before drastically, for several mods, and you are correct! But not nearly on-point on just how much Ranged classes suffered in that regards. But then proceed to state that Ranged classes shouldn't have more CA, but now they should have more powers. Which actually, effectively, makes them even stronger than ranged CA ever would.
All of the discussions have been about the mechanics of CA and damage formulas and why or why not damage would increase or change the meta. Some of you just can't get to the place in these theoretical discussions since your prejudices won't let you just run with the scenario.
How does it change the meta? What is this ''meta'' you talk about? Which classes are the best classes to pick up right now? Can you show some data or similar? So far I have seen all classes doing perfectly fine, which I can't say for the previous mods where melee classes dominated everything. And you say that previous meta were ok? LOL Now I don't have to worry whether I pick one class over another cause the benefits and losses are so puny to even compare.
My main problem has always been there there are 7 dps classes and 7 of them can play in melee range. Of those 7 classes only 4 of them can play in ranged combat. The only reason that we have the melee classes being viable is that they have done more damage than ranged classes because the mechanics in the game (buffs) pushed them into it.
Way to sound biased to the max, man.
" Helloes!
The only reason ppl play melee is because melee does more dmg and that is good because ranged classes are at a range and that is bad because they are ranged and shouldn't do more damage than those who are not ranged since there are more ranged classes to choose from or so am I led to believe based on previous mods of this highly hypothetical discussion where you guys are all prejudiced against melee classes
Regards, Via QQ Maxima".
In other words, people build classes that deal more damage in contrast to what meta governs and you believe that because with the new update will allow so, one of many Legolases on the server will suddenly become The Ranged Menace and that people will stop playing a melee class because ranged gives more benefits? I can already see people spending millions upon millions od AD just to do 15%-50% more Hypothetical damage given to them by the ranged CA increase to 85ft. Like, the lines for changing the classes is so long, so many Legolases are being manufactured in Trobriand's domain...
And as I repeat this, but people already gave you all the reasons of why you are wrong to even state that ranged classes will have more benefits at a range. It just does not work the way you imagine it.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
This may have been on purpose due to having 3 classes that aren't viable in anything but melee combat and it would repeat the issues of creating content for ranged/melee like FBI when it came out with anti melee mechanics.
The issues with FBI that is somehow, in your head, ANTI-MELEE MECHANICS dungeon. And I have to argue against that? I really don’t have that much armor penetration to get to your head and explain that the game is not made with Melee being the “golden standard” for anything. In fact even back in old Pirate King, the Archers were the job for a wizard to clean because although they were weak HP-wise, they’d still kill an entire team easily if you were not fast enough to dispose of them.
Unless the idea is to remove those melee classes from the game or give them bows (make them have ranged abilities) they need to change a lot of mechanics in the game to keep melee classes playable. CA is the last of the buff/debuff meta that added damage for just being melee. Just adding CA to ranged classes may not make a huge difference but it may because it has been a huge inclusion in past builds in the game. Nobody knows fully if it will but if it does I don't want the change because I want class balance where every class is viable end game. Just increasing the range of CA without doing a pass on balancing the classes will just make the current imbalance worse.
Hahahahahaha! I have played with every class in the game and all of them beat the content. Sounds to me like you mained a GWF who was broken in previous mods, and now you are sad that Barbarian is placed into a more tanky role!
CA is not melee exclusive! Stop saying how it is a melee exclusive trait and how that’s the only “upper hand” that melee classes have atm.
FYI, I have all classes end game minus one and whatever the meta changes towards won't affect me in the slightest. It will affect a lot of my friends and players who are on classes that don't do as well as others if we went to an all ranged meta.
Yes, yes, sure, you’re pulling out “my friends” card now to cause some sympathy, but in truth you just want your main Barbarian to be like MOD15 GWF. Not going to happen unless you put some skill this time around.
Lets look at the barbarian class in this mod. They are under performing in terms of damage compared to other classes. They are pulled into LoMM since they made LoMM on the easy side so there really isn't any content that any dps classes can't do.
I’ve seen a Barbarian who tanked 20+ Butterfly Golems with ease due to a Barbarian exclusive skill. Be more like that barbarian, perhaps? Also, I’m sure that eventually some upgrades will come to Barbarian DPS class, but let’s hope that it will never, ever, be like it was in previous mods where GWFs were over and outperforming everything else to the point of sheer arrogance and ignorance as well as being sore losers in MOD16.
But, please, don’t come to ME about the talk of Class Balance when you support the fact that previous mods sucked for ranged classes, yet you assume it’s how things should work. You are fundamentally biased and I can’t talk to you in a serious manner.
With ToMM, the dps checks will likely keep that class out of it unless they can get in as a tank.
AMAZING! I’d very much like to see Barbarians playing as indestructible tanks as they can get everywhere due to their speed and manage control of the enemies by focusing on their defensive skills. They don’t need to focus more on the damage now, and if they focus on tankyness, which every class should do for TOMM to some extent, then Barbarians are having it all easy! They still have the almighty “I can’t die” button to press. Great asset to have, a nice protection unit. I’m very much happy for Barbarians to play as tanks a bit, so that they learn some humility and what it means to be “TEAM PLAYERS” instead of running wooden logs with swords. You can’t tell me better news than the fact that Barbarians have been toned down in MOD16. Now, let them remain like that for the next, OH I DUNNO 10 MODS? Like Ranged classes have been? And let Barbarians struggle for every single solitary DPS bonus whilst constantly being crippled by nerfs to the most damaging abilities until MOD26? Then come to me to tell me about “Balance of the classes” because I know you don’t give a damn about Ranged classes at all and I understand very well that you’re only pushing an agenda. Yeah, I doubt that Barbies will remain that much nonviable, so you got away rather easy with the changes. Be patient and you'll see.
If we went to an all ranged meta the rogue/barb/fighter classes that lack ranged abilities wouldn't be asked into parties because it is essentially like reducing the number of players in the group.
Oh, oh, oh! So now you come to say that? What about all previous mods where it was 1 GWF 2 DC 2 OP? What about all other classes? BIASED! Also, Rogues are doing mighty fine this mod. Bless their hearts. And bless all hearts of barbarians who play tanky roles. < 3
My perfect scenario of damage is all classes are balanced within a 3% variance of damage. Right now the variance I am seeing at top levels is about a ~30% difference between the best dps class wizard and the worst classes (take your pick - SW/TR/Barb/Fighter) after taking into consideration player abilities.
There is a reason why Wizards are reaching out on the top, and that’s because Wizards are historically among the best tinkerers in Neverwinter community! And we only became that after being seriously crippled so many times and forced to play something we were never meant to be. Unless you experienced that, you can’t know nor can truly be sympathetic to the Wizard cause. Even now the Wizard is seriously lacking in terms of, well, powers and everything else. Most of the damage comes from a class mechanic, but all powers have severely diminished magnitude in comparison to other classes.
The Wizard players are the only class in the game, next to DCs, who had to learn and relearn their class mechanics with each new major MOD update in order not to deal enough damage, but to remain viable. And for a long time, this “VIABLE” scenario came from being a SUPPORT class despite the fact that historically Wizards have always been a DPS class ever since Control was taken out of the equation. I personally do not mind Wizards doing proper damage, but if a Wizard is leaving you in dust, that’s because he’s a good player, not because he’s “a wizard”.
At the end of the day there just needs to be something that keeps the melee classes viable or the position that the ranged classes feel now will swap to the melee classes. Except, the melee classes can't do anything ranged to compensate like the ranged classes can do for melee which just might be why ranged damage has always been lower than melee.
Lol. TRs can literally teleport, barbarians can literally run like crazy reaching any target and hitting it at least twice before any ranged unit. Also, let us wait some 10+ mods for Barbarians to become viable again. That’s all I’m asking. Feel the CWs, TRs, HRs and SWs pain over the past mods. We were all crippled high and mighty, and rarely, if ever, called into parties.
I want you to show me at least 10 messages here on the forum where you wrote that GWF doing +~30% more damage than other classes is being bad and morally wrong. Unless you can deliver me those, I don’t want to talk to you anymore due to the high amount of BIASED QQ.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Anyone standing at range is a liability and I would really like to see someone spin it otherwise, with a good justification, because you can't do it.
Range gameplay is a liability because the game makes it that way. Too many design are in favor of melee gameplay and too few are stress on range. But when the game starting to change in favor of range gameplay, such as increasing the range of CA for a start, or a boss fight that need u to stay away from each other like stepping on rune in Svardborg, its entire different thing it say range is a liability. By going against the changes/design that favor range gameplay with an excuse that range gameplay is a liability wont fix range gameplay from being a liability. Its like saying we should not teach a child to read because he cant read. What's the point of teaching those who already knows how to read then?
This may have been on purpose due to having 3 classes that aren't viable in anything but melee combat and it would repeat the issues of creating content for ranged/melee like FBI when it came out with anti melee mechanics.
The issues with FBI that is somehow, in your head, ANTI-MELEE MECHANICS dungeon. And I have to argue against that? I really don’t have that much armor penetration to get to your head and explain that the game is not made with Melee being the “golden standard” for anything. In fact even back in old Pirate King, the Archers were the job for a wizard to clean because although they were weak HP-wise, they’d still kill an entire team easily if you were not fast enough to dispose of them.
Unless the idea is to remove those melee classes from the game or give them bows (make them have ranged abilities) they need to change a lot of mechanics in the game to keep melee classes playable. CA is the last of the buff/debuff meta that added damage for just being melee. Just adding CA to ranged classes may not make a huge difference but it may because it has been a huge inclusion in past builds in the game. Nobody knows fully if it will but if it does I don't want the change because I want class balance where every class is viable end game. Just increasing the range of CA without doing a pass on balancing the classes will just make the current imbalance worse.
Hahahahahaha! I have played with every class in the game and all of them beat the content. Sounds to me like you mained a GWF who was broken in previous mods, and now you are sad that Barbarian is placed into a more tanky role!
CA is not melee exclusive! Stop saying how it is a melee exclusive trait and how that’s the only “upper hand” that melee classes have atm.
FYI, I have all classes end game minus one and whatever the meta changes towards won't affect me in the slightest. It will affect a lot of my friends and players who are on classes that don't do as well as others if we went to an all ranged meta.
Yes, yes, sure, you’re pulling out “my friends” card now to cause some sympathy, but in truth you just want your main Barbarian to be like MOD15 GWF. Not going to happen unless you put some skill this time around.
Lets look at the barbarian class in this mod. They are under performing in terms of damage compared to other classes. They are pulled into LoMM since they made LoMM on the easy side so there really isn't any content that any dps classes can't do.
I’ve seen a Barbarian who tanked 20+ Butterfly Golems with ease due to a Barbarian exclusive skill. Be more like that barbarian, perhaps? Also, I’m sure that eventually some upgrades will come to Barbarian DPS class, but let’s hope that it will never, ever, be like it was in previous mods where GWFs were over and outperforming everything else to the point of sheer arrogance and ignorance as well as being sore losers in MOD16.
But, please, don’t come to ME about the talk of Class Balance when you support the fact that previous mods sucked for ranged classes, yet you assume it’s how things should work. You are fundamentally biased and I can’t talk to you in a serious manner.
With ToMM, the dps checks will likely keep that class out of it unless they can get in as a tank.
AMAZING! I’d very much like to see Barbarians playing as indestructible tanks as they can get everywhere due to their speed and manage control of the enemies by focusing on their defensive skills. They don’t need to focus more on the damage now, and if they focus on tankyness, which every class should do for TOMM to some extent, then Barbarians are having it all easy! They still have the almighty “I can’t die” button to press. Great asset to have, a nice protection unit. I’m very much happy for Barbarians to play as tanks a bit, so that they learn some humility and what it means to be “TEAM PLAYERS” instead of running wooden logs with swords. You can’t tell me better news than the fact that Barbarians have been toned down in MOD16. Now, let them remain like that for the next, OH I DUNNO 10 MODS? Like Ranged classes have been? And let Barbarians struggle for every single solitary DPS bonus whilst constantly being crippled by nerfs to the most damaging abilities until MOD26? Then come to me to tell me about “Balance of the classes” because I know you don’t give a damn about Ranged classes at all and I understand very well that you’re only pushing an agenda. Yeah, I doubt that Barbies will remain that much nonviable, so you got away rather easy with the changes. Be patient and you'll see.
If we went to an all ranged meta the rogue/barb/fighter classes that lack ranged abilities wouldn't be asked into parties because it is essentially like reducing the number of players in the group.
Oh, oh, oh! So now you come to say that? What about all previous mods where it was 1 GWF 2 DC 2 OP? What about all other classes? BIASED! Also, Rogues are doing mighty fine this mod. Bless their hearts. And bless all hearts of barbarians who play tanky roles. < 3
My perfect scenario of damage is all classes are balanced within a 3% variance of damage. Right now the variance I am seeing at top levels is about a ~30% difference between the best dps class wizard and the worst classes (take your pick - SW/TR/Barb/Fighter) after taking into consideration player abilities.
There is a reason why Wizards are reaching out on the top, and that’s because Wizards are historically among the best tinkerers in Neverwinter community! And we only became that after being seriously crippled so many times and forced to play something we were never meant to be. Unless you experienced that, you can’t know nor can truly be sympathetic to the Wizard cause. Even now the Wizard is seriously lacking in terms of, well, powers and everything else. Most of the damage comes from a class mechanic, but all powers have severely diminished magnitude in comparison to other classes.
The Wizard players are the only class in the game, next to DCs, who had to learn and relearn their class mechanics with each new major MOD update in order not to deal enough damage, but to remain viable. And for a long time, this “VIABLE” scenario came from being a SUPPORT class despite the fact that historically Wizards have always been a DPS class ever since Control was taken out of the equation. I personally do not mind Wizards doing proper damage, but if a Wizard is leaving you in dust, that’s because he’s a good player, not because he’s “a wizard”.
At the end of the day there just needs to be something that keeps the melee classes viable or the position that the ranged classes feel now will swap to the melee classes. Except, the melee classes can't do anything ranged to compensate like the ranged classes can do for melee which just might be why ranged damage has always been lower than melee.
Lol. TRs can literally teleport, barbarians can literally run like crazy reaching any target and hitting it at least twice before any ranged unit. Also, let us wait some 10+ mods for Barbarians to become viable again. That’s all I’m asking. Feel the CWs, TRs, HRs and SWs pain over the past mods. We were all crippled high and mighty, and rarely, if ever, called into parties.
I want you to show me at least 10 messages here on the forum where you wrote that GWF doing +~30% more damage than other classes is being bad and morally wrong. Unless you can deliver me those, I don’t want to talk to you anymore due to the high amount of BIASED QQ.
Not sure why its hard to explain that nw is a huge game, and that in certain dungeons, melee will prevail due to mechanics and in others, range will prevail due to mechanics. The game is not built for you to always play range nor melee, there's like a balance inbetween, where sometimes range is a better option, while other times melee is a better option. Tbf if we talk about mobile bosses that wont stop running around, its obvious that range may have some advantage as they can still hit the bosses while they move, but in the game, there are also static bosses like orcus that wont move no matter what, and actually do alot of damage to range classes, especially in previous mods with melee classes had more "armor" than ranged classes. Melee or range gameplay are both viable and both have their advantages depending on who or what you are up against, you honestly dont need to be Albert einsten to see any of this.
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited July 2019
Tbh I am not even sure why I (or anyone else for that matter) bothers arguing here about it. It is changed, it probably is not changing back, it is a moot point. I think it is just disappointing that there isn't really a reward for careful positioning. Imo CA should have stayed as is and there should have been other benefits to stand at ranged. Also the positioning requirements should in general be more strict, to make it harder to meet them.
@lardeson The guy just assumes and makes wild guesses that melee is the gold standard for everything, including CA bonus. Haven't seen such a biased claim on the forums, yet. Maybe the guy who asked for taxing people who have AD. Bless his heart.
Even with Arcturia's teleportation around for CA activation you still need Melee unit.
Look from this side - How many Kabal fights people have done and they still can't learn to even break the chains on a small fiery ball?
If you can't learn to break the chains on a non-moving target, how are you going to learn CA bonus on a moving boss? When? In what scenario? I can't get to tell two people to stop activating rune banes, yet I'm going to influence another player to stand in perfect line across the room? Phahah!
Arcturia teleports, you have to have someone on the other side and basically it will be a melee class most of the time. In that regards, melee class gets CA, too. Without having to worry about you or pulling AoE boss skill on you accidentally. Melee classes would see so much freedom!
Yet, this cherryman1 guy says how it will increase Ranged classes dmg to the point of breaking the game. : ) Gotta love him with pure intent! Bless his heart and soul, too.
Cheers mr. Lardeson. And see you in-game sometimes.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
With all due respect for the parties involved in this discussion, it's all completely irrelevant.
This was a bug report regarding the distance required to get CA. The devs chimed in and said they are going to increase the range, meaning they agreed, there was a flaw with the short range of ca and they explained why it was the way it was for so long.
Tbh I am not even sure why I (or anyone else for that matter) bothers arguing here about it. It is changed, it probably is not changing back, it is a moot point. I think it is just disappointing that there isn't really a reward for careful positioning. Imo CA should have stayed as is and there should have been other benefits to stand at ranged. Also the positioning requirements should in general be more strict, to make it harder to meet them.
Well nothing personal here, you are a cw i respect alot and mostly agree with your takes and i have to agree that CA requirement should be more strict, and ofc its ur opinion, but i dont see melee stance being the only viable choice ingame, like i said before there are many bosses in the game where its better for rangers to stay as rangers and close in when any mechanic requires it. i've seen videos about Tomm, its mainly a static boss fight but even then, there are mechanics that require the group to split or to stay together, which means that u are not going to be 100% at melee, and that definitely doesn't determine who is or not a good dps, learning the mechanics and adapting to them, requires more skill and more important IMO, whether it means u have to fight at melee or range, as long as u are going with the mechanic, thats all that matters, not ur positioning.
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
Anyone standing at range is a liability and I would really like to see someone spin it otherwise, with a good justification, because you can't do it.
If I bring 6x DPS comprising of Archer Ranger/Hellbringer Warlock/Whisperknife TR that play like it's Battlefield 3 sniping, I can get a tax deductible for contributing to charity!
Without a doubt correct (unless the Devs do not just increase the CA area as a simply larger arc), but I fail to see how you could derive a quality feature for a "good dps" from the ability to stay in the CA area. There are much more things going on in a fight that require good observation skills.
Sharp leaked the super secret Mod 18: CAVE. He apparently said it's the mod where lassor takes over as lead developer and overhauls the game into a shoot 'em up.
Enjoy trying to position for CA when everyone is constantly moving around to dodge incoming curtain fire.
My perfect scenario of damage is all classes are balanced within a 3% variance of damage. Right now the variance I am seeing at top levels is about a ~30% difference between the best dps class wizard and the worst classes (take your pick - SW/TR/Barb/Fighter) after taking into consideration player abilities.
How do you quantify the bolded class with the other 3? I don't think the DPS of the bolded class even exists.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Tbh I am not even sure why I (or anyone else for that matter) bothers arguing here about it. It is changed, it probably is not changing back, it is a moot point. I think it is just disappointing that there isn't really a reward for careful positioning. Imo CA should have stayed as is and there should have been other benefits to stand at ranged. Also the positioning requirements should in general be more strict, to make it harder to meet them.
Well nothing personal here, you are a cw i respect alot and mostly agree with your takes and i have to agree that CA requirement should be more strict, and ofc its ur opinion, but i dont see melee stance being the only viable choice ingame, like i said before there are many bosses in the game where its better for rangers to stay as rangers and close in when any mechanic requires it. i've seen videos about Tomm, its mainly a static boss fight but even then, there are mechanics that require the group to split or to stay together, which means that u are not going to be 100% at melee, and that definitely doesn't determine who is or not a good dps, learning the mechanics and adapting to them, requires more skill and more important IMO, whether it means u have to fight at melee or range, as long as u are going with the mechanic, thats all that matters, not ur positioning.
Which is why I said there should be other benefits to standing at range. For example, gear like the long range rings could give significantly higher bonuses than 3%, because it is compensating for a lack of CA, or something like that. Building around standing at a certain distance could and should imo be an interesting part of gameplay. Having a wide range easy to stand in cone be the definition of CA just makes it less interesting.
And yes, changing the range of CA won't make good wizards suddenly do more damage, they had CA already, but it does make bad wizards do more damage, because they could accidentally easily stand in the range of CA now and that is a big part of why I don't like this change. It is rewarding people who do not think about positioning at all, as opposed to rewarding people who DO think about it. A positional advantage based on standing at a certain range in a DIFFERENT arc would be interesting for example. Just making the range of CA bigger is not an interesting mechanical change or 1 that adds value.
All of the old content is balanced around making everyone melee to do damage so mechanics ignore a lot of ranged classes.
Wrong. The HR's feat "Aspect of the pack" gave CA to every team member at ANY range. And everyone relied on that feat once a HR was in the team.
We are talking about positional CA though. Not abilities that give CA.
Dude, not even sure where to start with you, i have been trying to read all ur comments but they literally make no sense at this point. CA having a wider range will not give ranged classes any advantage in the game, we had CA at any range in every other mod, this makes no difference, a gameplay is not a written script, there are intervals where u'll need to be at melee and others where range is safer, thats why the need for CA to be unrestricted to just melee. Me moving back to 50 ft with no imminent danger, has nothing to do with me getting more damage, CA caps at 100% damage for all classes, increasing the range to 85ft will not make rangers go up to 185%, i will still be 100%, same for melee classes. So what is your whole point? where are you even trying to push it? I repeat, CA has been in the game forever, you could have it at any range, the only issue with mod16 is that there was a transition, where feats are now locked to paragons and you cant have certain feats that give you CA at any range if you chose a paragon over another. Whats so hard to understand here? Am i typing in chinese?
We aren't that far off as your taking my comments to mean that I think increased damage to mean that I think CA increases the damage above and beyond 100% in the damage formula or that it stacks which I never stated. I am saying that the up time of CA for ranged with this change will increase the amount of time to get the CA damage buff. This will essentially be a straight buff to ranged classes with the changes to how often you can get CA this mod. When you don't have the buff you do less damage. The reason for the increase in damage is that the more often you have the CA buff the better damage you do. The change from the old mod to this mod is the amount of time skills that give CA are giving them to the party due to cool downs and more skills being rewritten to only give the user CA instead of party CA. They also removed CA from a most things in game meaning that positioning to get CA is more important than ever before. All players are getting CA a lot less often than in the last mod which it was 100% up time due to high recovery players who could spam abilities that gave the party CA (you know those pesky buffers we had to get rid of from last mod). That is no longer the case in the game. A lot of the arguments are on hypothetical amounts of time you get CA and increases to damage the longer you have CA. The players who have been arguing with me have been making cases that getting CA at 85 ft won't increase ranged dps meaning that they think they already have it all of the time or that CA doesn't increase damage. They have also been arguing on when a dps class gets CA in melee vs ranged and which get it more often.
We are also not talking about a script to the fights but strategies on how to best utilize game mechanics that are potentially changing. The combat will never be scripted. The best way to use mechanics with this change COULD change the best strategy of where to stand.
You just stated that moving away 50 ft from the enemies to not be in "danger" doesn't give you more damage. Well, your less likely to have CA from last mod at 50 ft and won't get positional CA but, with the changes to 85 ft could very well have CA at that range. Since you also stated your in a more "Safe" place at this range then isn't it also expected that you can attack the mobs or boss more frequent than a melee class that needs to not be in a "Safe" place to do their damage? Giving you more CA buff time should increase the damage you do from a hypothetical stand point as well unless your arguing that CA doesn't increase damage the more often you have it. There are a lot of unknown variables in this since we don't know how much extra damage having CA up more frequent at range will do (all I keep hearing in this is that increasing the range of CA won't increase damage they do in a dungeon). We don't know how much damage being in melee range and dodging attacks reduces melee combatants damage. We also don't know the full effects of reducing mobility of melee classes this mod and the damage that reduces to them.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Tbh I am not even sure why I (or anyone else for that matter) bothers arguing here about it. It is changed, it probably is not changing back, it is a moot point. I think it is just disappointing that there isn't really a reward for careful positioning. Imo CA should have stayed as is and there should have been other benefits to stand at ranged. Also the positioning requirements should in general be more strict, to make it harder to meet them.
Well nothing personal here, you are a cw i respect alot and mostly agree with your takes and i have to agree that CA requirement should be more strict, and ofc its ur opinion, but i dont see melee stance being the only viable choice ingame, like i said before there are many bosses in the game where its better for rangers to stay as rangers and close in when any mechanic requires it. i've seen videos about Tomm, its mainly a static boss fight but even then, there are mechanics that require the group to split or to stay together, which means that u are not going to be 100% at melee, and that definitely doesn't determine who is or not a good dps, learning the mechanics and adapting to them, requires more skill and more important IMO, whether it means u have to fight at melee or range, as long as u are going with the mechanic, thats all that matters, not ur positioning.
Which is why I said there should be other benefits to standing at range. For example, gear like the long range rings could give significantly higher bonuses than 3%, because it is compensating for a lack of CA, or something like that. Building around standing at a certain distance could and should imo be an interesting part of gameplay. Having a wide range easy to stand in cone be the definition of CA just makes it less interesting.
And yes, changing the range of CA won't make good wizards suddenly do more damage, they had CA already, but it does make bad wizards do more damage, because they could accidentally easily stand in the range of CA now and that is a big part of why I don't like this change. It is rewarding people who do not think about positioning at all, as opposed to rewarding people who DO think about it. A positional advantage based on standing at a certain range in a DIFFERENT arc would be interesting for example. Just making the range of CA bigger is not an interesting mechanical change or 1 that adds value.
The problem with making positioning too restrictive are gonna funnel everyone into playing the same rigid formation. Take pre mod 16 for example. Where literally everyone is hugging each other within 25' due to the concentration of party buff at that radius thus claiming it to be the ideal positioning.
Without a doubt correct (unless the Devs do not just increase the CA area as a simply larger arc), but I fail to see how you could derive a quality feature for a "good dps" from the ability to stay in the CA area. There are much more things going on in a fight that require good observation skills.
It does not matter if there is other stuff going on in the fight, by virtue of it being harder to remain inside of the arc at a smaller range, it requires more skill to do.
It does. But that does not make you a better dps. You still fail to prove that point in my opinion.
That's legit nonsense. Really. Remember the time before Trapper HRs were nerfed? They out-dps'ed GWFs by far and that from a RANGE. And I will not even start with wizards and their ranged powers nowadays. You know that better than anyone.
Post edited by therealprotex on
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arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
All of the old content is balanced around making everyone melee to do damage so mechanics ignore a lot of ranged classes.
Wrong. The HR's feat "Aspect of the pack" gave CA to every team member at ANY range. And everyone relied on that feat once a HR was in the team.
We are talking about positional CA though. Not abilities that give CA.
Dude, not even sure where to start with you, i have been trying to read all ur comments but they literally make no sense at this point. CA having a wider range will not give ranged classes any advantage in the game, we had CA at any range in every other mod, this makes no difference, a gameplay is not a written script, there are intervals where u'll need to be at melee and others where range is safer, thats why the need for CA to be unrestricted to just melee. Me moving back to 50 ft with no imminent danger, has nothing to do with me getting more damage, CA caps at 100% damage for all classes, increasing the range to 85ft will not make rangers go up to 185%, i will still be 100%, same for melee classes. So what is your whole point? where are you even trying to push it? I repeat, CA has been in the game forever, you could have it at any range, the only issue with mod16 is that there was a transition, where feats are now locked to paragons and you cant have certain feats that give you CA at any range if you chose a paragon over another. Whats so hard to understand here? Am i typing in chinese?
We aren't that far off as your taking my comments to mean that I think increased damage to mean that I think CA increases the damage above and beyond 100% in the damage formula or that it stacks which I never stated. I am saying that the up time of CA for ranged with this change will increase the amount of time to get the CA damage buff. This will essentially be a straight buff to ranged classes with the changes to how often you can get CA this mod. When you don't have the buff you do less damage. The reason for the increase in damage is that the more often you have the CA buff the better damage you do. The change from the old mod to this mod is the amount of time skills that give CA are giving them to the party due to cool downs and more skills being rewritten to only give the user CA instead of party CA. They also removed CA from a most things in game meaning that positioning to get CA is more important than ever before. All players are getting CA a lot less often than in the last mod which it was 100% up time due to high recovery players who could spam abilities that gave the party CA (you know those pesky buffers we had to get rid of from last mod). That is no longer the case in the game. A lot of the arguments are on hypothetical amounts of time you get CA and increases to damage the longer you have CA. The players who have been arguing with me have been making cases that getting CA at 85 ft won't increase ranged dps meaning that they think they already have it all of the time or that CA doesn't increase damage. They have also been arguing on when a dps class gets CA in melee vs ranged and which get it more often.
We are also not talking about a script to the fights but strategies on how to best utilize game mechanics that are potentially changing. The combat will never be scripted. The best way to use mechanics with this change COULD change the best strategy of where to stand.
You just stated that moving away 50 ft from the enemies to not be in "danger" doesn't give you more damage. Well, your less likely to have CA from last mod at 50 ft and won't get positional CA but, with the changes to 85 ft could very well have CA at that range. Since you also stated your in a more "Safe" place at this range then isn't it also expected that you can attack the mobs or boss more frequent than a melee class that needs to not be in a "Safe" place to do their damage? Giving you more CA buff time should increase the damage you do from a hypothetical stand point as well unless your arguing that CA doesn't increase damage the more often you have it. There are a lot of unknown variables in this since we don't know how much extra damage having CA up more frequent at range will do (all I keep hearing in this is that increasing the range of CA won't increase damage they do in a dungeon). We don't know how much damage being in melee range and dodging attacks reduces melee combatants damage. We also don't know the full effects of reducing mobility of melee classes this mod and the damage that reduces to them.
This CA change isn't going to change the damage potential of ranged dps classes(read as maximum damage a class can do). The most it will do is give medium/low end characters who don't position themselves well more damage just because they will happen to be in a CA area more often. Being close behind the boss is still going to be the optimal placement so the healer can heal/shield everyone with the same button press, especially with the recent changes coming to Cleric and Paladin.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Without a doubt correct (unless the Devs do not just increase the CA area as a simply larger arc), but I fail to see how you could derive a quality feature for a "good dps" from the ability to stay in the CA area. There are much more things going on in a fight that require good observation skills.
It does not matter if there is other stuff going on in the fight, by virtue of it being harder to remain inside of the arc at a smaller range, it requires more skill to do.
It does. But that does not make you a better dps. You still fail to prove that point in my opinion.
If it requires more skill to do something, then on the basis of skill the player that does do it is better than the player who does not. The player who does take the time to position for CA, does more damage and thus if your only measure of a dps is how much damage they deal, they will be a better dps because their damage will be higher. By extending the area in which you can get CA, by the virtue of there being less total area where you CANNOT get CA, a player positioned at random is more likely to have CA than before. This means that by increasing the area in which you can get CA, you are reducing the skill cap for all dps who have the option to play at ranged.
All of the old content is balanced around making everyone melee to do damage so mechanics ignore a lot of ranged classes.
Wrong. The HR's feat "Aspect of the pack" gave CA to every team member at ANY range. And everyone relied on that feat once a HR was in the team.
We are talking about positional CA though. Not abilities that give CA.
Dude, not even sure where to start with you, i have been trying to read all ur comments but they literally make no sense at this point. CA having a wider range will not give ranged classes any advantage in the game, we had CA at any range in every other mod, this makes no difference, a gameplay is not a written script, there are intervals where u'll need to be at melee and others where range is safer, thats why the need for CA to be unrestricted to just melee. Me moving back to 50 ft with no imminent danger, has nothing to do with me getting more damage, CA caps at 100% damage for all classes, increasing the range to 85ft will not make rangers go up to 185%, i will still be 100%, same for melee classes. So what is your whole point? where are you even trying to push it? I repeat, CA has been in the game forever, you could have it at any range, the only issue with mod16 is that there was a transition, where feats are now locked to paragons and you cant have certain feats that give you CA at any range if you chose a paragon over another. Whats so hard to understand here? Am i typing in chinese?
We aren't that far off as your taking my comments to mean that I think increased damage to mean that I think CA increases the damage above and beyond 100% in the damage formula or that it stacks which I never stated. I am saying that the up time of CA for ranged with this change will increase the amount of time to get the CA damage buff. This will essentially be a straight buff to ranged classes with the changes to how often you can get CA this mod. When you don't have the buff you do less damage. The reason for the increase in damage is that the more often you have the CA buff the better damage you do. The change from the old mod to this mod is the amount of time skills that give CA are giving them to the party due to cool downs and more skills being rewritten to only give the user CA instead of party CA. They also removed CA from a most things in game meaning that positioning to get CA is more important than ever before. All players are getting CA a lot less often than in the last mod which it was 100% up time due to high recovery players who could spam abilities that gave the party CA (you know those pesky buffers we had to get rid of from last mod). That is no longer the case in the game. A lot of the arguments are on hypothetical amounts of time you get CA and increases to damage the longer you have CA. The players who have been arguing with me have been making cases that getting CA at 85 ft won't increase ranged dps meaning that they think they already have it all of the time or that CA doesn't increase damage. They have also been arguing on when a dps class gets CA in melee vs ranged and which get it more often.
We are also not talking about a script to the fights but strategies on how to best utilize game mechanics that are potentially changing. The combat will never be scripted. The best way to use mechanics with this change COULD change the best strategy of where to stand.
You just stated that moving away 50 ft from the enemies to not be in "danger" doesn't give you more damage. Well, your less likely to have CA from last mod at 50 ft and won't get positional CA but, with the changes to 85 ft could very well have CA at that range. Since you also stated your in a more "Safe" place at this range then isn't it also expected that you can attack the mobs or boss more frequent than a melee class that needs to not be in a "Safe" place to do their damage? Giving you more CA buff time should increase the damage you do from a hypothetical stand point as well unless your arguing that CA doesn't increase damage the more often you have it. There are a lot of unknown variables in this since we don't know how much extra damage having CA up more frequent at range will do (all I keep hearing in this is that increasing the range of CA won't increase damage they do in a dungeon). We don't know how much damage being in melee range and dodging attacks reduces melee combatants damage. We also don't know the full effects of reducing mobility of melee classes this mod and the damage that reduces to them.
they already responded that if you scroll up, but yh literally its as easy as "you still need someone to do flanking before getting CA" so its not like a ranged class gets into battle and automatically have CA, you are only thinking on paper, not realistically, the game doesn't play that way, rangers have wider CA range, but again, if the fight requires it, those rangers will have to fight in melee stance and not range, you still need someone doing the flanking, so no such advantage you are talking about, melee and ranged classes will have CA at more or less the same time.
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
Comments
- For the obvious heals
- Some bosses have a hitbox that makes tanks useless (but not all, just some, so if you are basing ur logic only off tomm, its laughable)
- In previous mods it was due to the massive buffs you got from close range, which are no longer in the game, so this isn't relevant anymore.
All in all, the only relevant reason to stay close to a healer these days is just for the heals and bosses that have an instance based hitbox, but what if you stay close to the healer, at a range where u still get heals but still abit far away from the group? this is possible and has nothing to do with you being a better dps or not, all it requires is a good group you usually run with and are willing to play along.
In every other game, lets take WoW for example, you do have strategies, alot of them, and none of them requires the ranged class to be at the same range as the tank. Dcuo is another example where healers can basically heal u from anythere on the field and its safer to let the tank do there job, while the dpses move from melee to range combat depending on the situations. So yes i repeat, only if you play neverwinter, u can determine whether a dps is good or not just by them playing at melee or range. But now lets be serious, all that was left in mod15, you can already run a scorpion in mod16, use certain gear, that will help u play both at melee or range when required, this is what strategy is, playing 100% at melee or range isn't a strategy, requires no skills nor knowledge, its a static gameplay, but yh if you enjoy such gameplay, thats all on you lol. I for one doesn't enjoy a static gameplay and will build my character in a way i can play at both range and melee when required. Your range in combat doesn't determine how good a dps you are, your knowledge of the game, mechanics and strategies thou, if it was a game that required more skills from players and not just having an OP shield you all the time, then im pretty sure u've want to move far away from bosses when they start hitting everyone at a close range, while heals cant completely heal the damage and you have no choice but to run away until boss is done spanking.
What is the context in what you're trying to even argue about? You literally have zero arguments that apply to any context of the game and have made up entire thing in your head by making it sound horrendous that Ranged classes will have a chance to apply more CA damage at some distance. Furthermore, you completely disregard every argument that people have presented against your claims, including the fact that Ranged classes have their base weapon damage reduced in contrast to Melee classes.
People already gave some very solid arguments as in why all your claims, and I mean all of them, are false and untrue.
But let's go into hypothetical based on your imagination because - why not? I have time.
But that IS what you are doing, and actively pursuing throughout all of your recent posts. It is literally what you are doing, and without any substance. Your whole agenda is based on this irrational fear and numbers that you drew out of your head. And because you have no case and got in so deep, now you pursue to make long texts in order to make yourself appear more plausible, which you're not achieving at all. Again this "META" thing. Why is "META" important, and furthermore, this whole concept and idea came out because of an oversight after taking away most of the CA bonuses which applied before, and not because there's this clandestine force in the dev group that wants to make Ranged classes sweet to use. The prime example of you harboring this irrational fear and making an elephant out of an fly. You can't get more casual and spontaneous than this.
"Guys, CA ok?"
"Errr, gonna check."
"Sweet!"
"Errr, yeah we gonna increase a bit cause ranged classes got crippled"
"Hell, yeah! Some love, finally"
And then, you...with "RaNgEd clAsSeS GetTiNg 50% mOr3 DaMAgE Is HypOTeTicaLLlyy Wr0ngeR" x 10 messages. My head is starting to hurt based on just how many wrong and inconsistent sentences are placed in such a narrow space.
1. Not a single (de)buff was purely "local" to melee range nor exclusive to melee range. Not a single one in previous (de)buff meta. They could be player-inherent as in - personal buff only. What you meant here, and I'm making a wild guess, is that players have to stick together to get benefits, and as people told you already that's still the idea! If that's what you mean, have no fear!
2. CA was never a BUFF but rather a Combat Mechanic that's been available to everyone based either on the positioning or on Powers that would trigger that particular combat mechanic either for a single person or for any ally around. For something to be regarded as "BUFF" it needs to be seen as a specific class mechanic and potentially have an icon placed on the powers bar. CA is COMBAT inherent combat mechanic that's not melee exclusive nor was ever only given at a close range in any of the previous mods due to a fact that many classes had the ability to give "free CA" to anyone around.
3. Completely wrong! Entirety of the Glass Canon meta seriously hurt the gamestyle of many classes, leaving them vulnerable in close melee range, which led to more headaches in trying to figure out what an ideal class balance actually is in contrast to how classes operated ever since many PvPers, who are the worst of the bunch of QQers with a lot of $$, wanted to cripple all ranged classes. 1st on the attack was the control of the wizard, then it was HR's shooting powers, and then I stopped caring enough. And I'm glad that MOD16 put a hard reset on all mistakes that were going on in the past and has a somewhat nice foundation to build up from. However, what you preach is completely wrong. Here you acknowledge that Ranged classes have been crippled before drastically, for several mods, and you are correct! But not nearly on-point on just how much Ranged classes suffered in that regards. But then proceed to state that Ranged classes shouldn't have more CA, but now they should have more powers. Which actually, effectively, makes them even stronger than ranged CA ever would. How does it change the meta? What is this ''meta'' you talk about? Which classes are the best classes to pick up right now? Can you show some data or similar? So far I have seen all classes doing perfectly fine, which I can't say for the previous mods where melee classes dominated everything. And you say that previous meta were ok? LOL Now I don't have to worry whether I pick one class over another cause the benefits and losses are so puny to even compare. Way to sound biased to the max, man.
"
Helloes!
The only reason ppl play melee is because melee does more dmg and that is good because ranged classes are at a range and that is bad because they are ranged and shouldn't do more damage than those who are not ranged since there are more ranged classes to choose from or so am I led to believe based on previous mods of this highly hypothetical discussion where you guys are all prejudiced against melee classes
Regards,
Via QQ Maxima".
In other words, people build classes that deal more damage in contrast to what meta governs and you believe that because with the new update will allow so, one of many Legolases on the server will suddenly become The Ranged Menace and that people will stop playing a melee class because ranged gives more benefits? I can already see people spending millions upon millions od AD just to do 15%-50% more Hypothetical damage given to them by the ranged CA increase to 85ft. Like, the lines for changing the classes is so long, so many Legolases are being manufactured in Trobriand's domain...
And as I repeat this, but people already gave you all the reasons of why you are wrong to even state that ranged classes will have more benefits at a range. It just does not work the way you imagine it.
Hahahahahaha! I have played with every class in the game and all of them beat the content. Sounds to me like you mained a GWF who was broken in previous mods, and now you are sad that Barbarian is placed into a more tanky role!
CA is not melee exclusive! Stop saying how it is a melee exclusive trait and how that’s the only “upper hand” that melee classes have atm. Yes, yes, sure, you’re pulling out “my friends” card now to cause some sympathy, but in truth you just want your main Barbarian to be like MOD15 GWF. Not going to happen unless you put some skill this time around. I’ve seen a Barbarian who tanked 20+ Butterfly Golems with ease due to a Barbarian exclusive skill. Be more like that barbarian, perhaps? Also, I’m sure that eventually some upgrades will come to Barbarian DPS class, but let’s hope that it will never, ever, be like it was in previous mods where GWFs were over and outperforming everything else to the point of sheer arrogance and ignorance as well as being sore losers in MOD16.
But, please, don’t come to ME about the talk of Class Balance when you support the fact that previous mods sucked for ranged classes, yet you assume it’s how things should work. You are fundamentally biased and I can’t talk to you in a serious manner. AMAZING! I’d very much like to see Barbarians playing as indestructible tanks as they can get everywhere due to their speed and manage control of the enemies by focusing on their defensive skills. They don’t need to focus more on the damage now, and if they focus on tankyness, which every class should do for TOMM to some extent, then Barbarians are having it all easy! They still have the almighty “I can’t die” button to press. Great asset to have, a nice protection unit. I’m very much happy for Barbarians to play as tanks a bit, so that they learn some humility and what it means to be “TEAM PLAYERS” instead of running wooden logs with swords. You can’t tell me better news than the fact that Barbarians have been toned down in MOD16.
Now, let them remain like that for the next, OH I DUNNO 10 MODS? Like Ranged classes have been? And let Barbarians struggle for every single solitary DPS bonus whilst constantly being crippled by nerfs to the most damaging abilities until MOD26? Then come to me to tell me about “Balance of the classes” because I know you don’t give a damn about Ranged classes at all and I understand very well that you’re only pushing an agenda. Yeah, I doubt that Barbies will remain that much nonviable, so you got away rather easy with the changes. Be patient and you'll see. Oh, oh, oh! So now you come to say that? What about all previous mods where it was 1 GWF 2 DC 2 OP? What about all other classes? BIASED!
Also, Rogues are doing mighty fine this mod. Bless their hearts. And bless all hearts of barbarians who play tanky roles. < 3 There is a reason why Wizards are reaching out on the top, and that’s because Wizards are historically among the best tinkerers in Neverwinter community! And we only became that after being seriously crippled so many times and forced to play something we were never meant to be. Unless you experienced that, you can’t know nor can truly be sympathetic to the Wizard cause. Even now the Wizard is seriously lacking in terms of, well, powers and everything else. Most of the damage comes from a class mechanic, but all powers have severely diminished magnitude in comparison to other classes.
The Wizard players are the only class in the game, next to DCs, who had to learn and relearn their class mechanics with each new major MOD update in order not to deal enough damage, but to remain viable. And for a long time, this “VIABLE” scenario came from being a SUPPORT class despite the fact that historically Wizards have always been a DPS class ever since Control was taken out of the equation.
I personally do not mind Wizards doing proper damage, but if a Wizard is leaving you in dust, that’s because he’s a good player, not because he’s “a wizard”. Lol. TRs can literally teleport, barbarians can literally run like crazy reaching any target and hitting it at least twice before any ranged unit. Also, let us wait some 10+ mods for Barbarians to become viable again. That’s all I’m asking. Feel the CWs, TRs, HRs and SWs pain over the past mods. We were all crippled high and mighty, and rarely, if ever, called into parties.
I want you to show me at least 10 messages here on the forum where you wrote that GWF doing +~30% more damage than other classes is being bad and morally wrong. Unless you can deliver me those, I don’t want to talk to you anymore due to the high amount of BIASED QQ.
Haven't seen such a biased claim on the forums, yet. Maybe the guy who asked for taxing people who have AD. Bless his heart.
Even with Arcturia's teleportation around for CA activation you still need Melee unit.
Look from this side - How many Kabal fights people have done and they still can't learn to even break the chains on a small fiery ball?
If you can't learn to break the chains on a non-moving target, how are you going to learn CA bonus on a moving boss? When? In what scenario? I can't get to tell two people to stop activating rune banes, yet I'm going to influence another player to stand in perfect line across the room? Phahah!
Arcturia teleports, you have to have someone on the other side and basically it will be a melee class most of the time. In that regards, melee class gets CA, too. Without having to worry about you or pulling AoE boss skill on you accidentally. Melee classes would see so much freedom!
Yet, this cherryman1 guy says how it will increase Ranged classes dmg to the point of breaking the game. : ) Gotta love him with pure intent! Bless his heart and soul, too.
Cheers mr. Lardeson. And see you in-game sometimes.
This was a bug report regarding the distance required to get CA. The devs chimed in and said they are going to increase the range, meaning they agreed, there was a flaw with the short range of ca and they explained why it was the way it was for so long.
Case closed.
Enjoy trying to position for CA when everyone is constantly moving around to dodge incoming curtain fire.
I don't think the DPS of the bolded class even exists.
And yes, changing the range of CA won't make good wizards suddenly do more damage, they had CA already, but it does make bad wizards do more damage, because they could accidentally easily stand in the range of CA now and that is a big part of why I don't like this change. It is rewarding people who do not think about positioning at all, as opposed to rewarding people who DO think about it. A positional advantage based on standing at a certain range in a DIFFERENT arc would be interesting for example. Just making the range of CA bigger is not an interesting mechanical change or 1 that adds value.
No point in
We are also not talking about a script to the fights but strategies on how to best utilize game mechanics that are potentially changing. The combat will never be scripted. The best way to use mechanics with this change COULD change the best strategy of where to stand.
You just stated that moving away 50 ft from the enemies to not be in "danger" doesn't give you more damage. Well, your less likely to have CA from last mod at 50 ft and won't get positional CA but, with the changes to 85 ft could very well have CA at that range. Since you also stated your in a more "Safe" place at this range then isn't it also expected that you can attack the mobs or boss more frequent than a melee class that needs to not be in a "Safe" place to do their damage? Giving you more CA buff time should increase the damage you do from a hypothetical stand point as well unless your arguing that CA doesn't increase damage the more often you have it. There are a lot of unknown variables in this since we don't know how much extra damage having CA up more frequent at range will do (all I keep hearing in this is that increasing the range of CA won't increase damage they do in a dungeon). We don't know how much damage being in melee range and dodging attacks reduces melee combatants damage. We also don't know the full effects of reducing mobility of melee classes this mod and the damage that reduces to them.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
There you go, there is your proof.