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Official M16: Fighter Feedback

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  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,037Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User


    I like the sound of those Dig In changes, although the counterattack feature really feels like something that should be baked into the ability, rather than something locked behind a feat for... how many levels? It almost single-handedly turns it from a redundant second block to an active tool; it seems a shame to delay that until your second-to-last feat. Perhaps make the counterattack part of the feature, and have the feat either reduce the cooldown or turn it into a Burst effect?
    Given the aforementioned reluctance of mobs to group up tightly, how many enemies in a pack of, say. five, would you expect an average player to be able to hit with that cone?

    Yes to the bolded part.

    It gives Dig In a use and differentiation besides being a less mobile Guard.

  • pyc87pyc87 Posts: 20Member Arc User
    rjc9000 said:


    I like the sound of those Dig In changes, although the counterattack feature really feels like something that should be baked into the ability, rather than something locked behind a feat for... how many levels? It almost single-handedly turns it from a redundant second block to an active tool; it seems a shame to delay that until your second-to-last feat. Perhaps make the counterattack part of the feature, and have the feat either reduce the cooldown or turn it into a Burst effect?
    Given the aforementioned reluctance of mobs to group up tightly, how many enemies in a pack of, say. five, would you expect an average player to be able to hit with that cone?

    Yes to the bolded part.

    It gives Dig In a use and differentiation besides being a less mobile Guard.
    In this version, Dig In will make sense. It will be actual and used mechanics.



  • pyc87pyc87 Posts: 20Member Arc User

    I think the biggest difference to be kept in mind when comparing is that most other games allow use of more than 3 powers. So offering skills ( feats) to specialize powers doesn't feel restricting. They also offer a wider variety of those specializations so players are more likely to find one that suits them. Which is also less restricting. The idea of offering feats to modify a single power or combinations really only works if you offer a higher number of total feat options to choose from than the current plans provide.

    Degradation. From complex to simple.
    As far as I know (news reach us seldom, with a delay and sometimes incorrectly translated/understood) the Administration already answered that them a little and therefore will simplify.
    Slogan: "Dolly the sheep is our ideal." In fact, how many skills (hero, ideal)
    you now depends on the skills (Combat, available, daily)? Tank tactics it's not very noticeable (1. strengthening the "call to battle" 2. strengthening the "master blow") But any dps more of them (for example, dps-tank at least 4 - half)
    picture:
    image

    Rus
    Деградация. От сложного к простому.
    Насколько я знаю (новости до нас доходят редко, с запозданием и иногда неправильно переведённые/понятые) Администрация уже ответили, что их мало и поэтому будут упрощать.
    Лозунг: "овечка Долли наш идеал".
    На самом деле сколько навыков (героя, идеала) у вас сейчас зависит от умений (Боевые, свободные, ежедневные)? У танка-тактика это не сильно заметно (1. усиление "призыва в битву" 2. усиление "мастерского удара") Но у любого дпс их больше (на примере дпс-танка их как минимум 4- половина)
  • pyc87pyc87 Posts: 20Member Arc User
    You will not be so easy to get rid of me, since I’ve come then I’ll leave in two cases:
    1. Or I will make sure that the tank is normal - I will run off in a jump for joy
    2. Either I understand that this class is no longer of interest to me - I will get upset and go crying on my server
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Posts: 152Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    I apologize for how long Dig In has languished on preview, and hope you'll take the time to test out these changes once they're on preview.

    With the announced April 23rd release of Undermountain in mind, I have to ask if there is any reason at all to do testing on preview ? It is realistic to consider this (or maybe next weeks) preview build the final build, this means there will be no major changes to the Fighter. It would be nice if you would sum up what feedback actually had any value for you in regards to changes made to Fighter since the first preview/closed beta build.

  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 975Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 28
    wilbur626 said:

    asterdahl said:

    I apologize for how long Dig In has languished on preview, and hope you'll take the time to test out these changes once they're on preview.

    With the announced April 23rd release of Undermountain in mind, I have to ask if there is any reason at all to do testing on preview ? It is realistic to consider this (or maybe next weeks) preview build the final build, this means there will be no major changes to the Fighter. It would be nice if you would sum up what feedback actually had any value for you in regards to changes made to Fighter since the first preview/closed beta build.

    If our feedback had been falling on deaf ears, I would have been gone from preview (and possibly the game) 3 weeks ago.

    But I think it's still useful to test and give feedback for one simple reason:

    @Asterdahl has been listening to our feedback and acting on it.



    And although Dig-In fixes have been delayed, don't forget that there has already been one sweep of revisions <3 weeks ago. (eg. Deep Breath).

    If Asterdahl's efforts are any precedent, there is a good chance that more fixes are possible before April 23rd (>3 weeks away).

    Edit:
    Not Heart <3 weeks. < 3 weeks. Goddamn auto-emoji.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 975Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Dig-In Damage Mitigation Test (1 of 2)
    1) Background
    There are many controversial Mod 16 changes for the class formerly known as Guardian Fighters.
    None has elicited more negative response then the replacement of Tab-Mark with “Dig-In”.
    The developers listened to player feedback. In response, a new “Dig-In” is set for patching on 29 March 2019.
    I decided to test the damage mitigation effects of both versions of Dig-In compared to a control.
    2) Objectives
    To quantify the relative damage-mitigation effectiveness of the present version of Dig-In in anticipation of repeat testing and comparison to the 2nd version.
    The Null Hypothesis is “there is no difference between damage received with or without Dig-In”.
    3) Methodology
    A. Character
    Tested with a level 80 Vanguard Paragon Fighter completely “naked” of all assets.
    No gear of any kind (except test sword used to trigger Flamebows with one hit prior to recording).
    image
    No powers or feats selected/slotted.
    No ability score increases.
    No boons.
    No companion assets (pets, pet gear, pet powers, runestones).
    Waterdeep horse. No mount powers, insignias or insignia bonuses.
    B. Environment
    I needed an environment isolated from other players with a fixed damage source. I used an empty instance of Mount Hotenow.
    Lava and Flamebows appear to have fixed base damage and DoT. Lava does not crit.
    The test was performed in an enclosed lava field on the far north end of the map. No players entered the instance while I was testing, therefore there was no contamination.
    C. Conditions
    image
    The Lava control was collected by standing in lava for 5 minutes without action or motion.
    The Flamebow control was collected after aggroing three isolated Flamebows then taking no further action for up to 5 minutes.
    The test data was collected in the same manner, recording started from the moment of activation of Dig-In for a duration of up to 5 minutes.
    Both control and test were repeated 3 times each under the same conditions.

    [CONTINUED...]
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 975Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 28
    Dig-In Damage Mitigation Test (2 of 2)
    3) Results (Aggregate of 3 runs each)
    A. Control
    a. Lava

    TYPE DAMAGE ENCDPS CHARDPS DPS AVERAGE RESIST HITS CRIT% EFFECTIVENESS
    All 127,570 419.50 416.90 419.50 1,037.15 All 123 0% 50.0%
    Lava 127,570 419.50 416.90 419.50 1,037.15 Physical 123 0% 50.0%
    Stamina remained at 100%. Death did not occur.

    b. Flamebows
    TYPE DAMAGE ENCDPS CHARDPS DPS AVERAGE RESIST HITS CRIT% EFFECTIVENESS
    All 40,850 2,269.44 0.00 2,307.91 2,150.00 All 19 26% NaN
    Ranged Attack 40,850 2,269.44 0.00 2,307.91 2,150.00 Physical 19 26% NaN
    Killing 0 0.00 0.00 0.00 NaN Death 0 NaN NaN
    Death occurred on average at 00:19.

    B. Test (Dig In)
    a. Lava

    TYPE DAMAGE ENCDPS CHARDPS DPS AVERAGE RESIST HITS CRIT% EFFECTIVENESS
    All 3,325 10.93 11.00 10.93 18.17 All 183 0% 0.0%
    Lava 3,325 10.93 11.00 10.93 18.17 Physical 183 0% 0.0%
    Stamina remained at 100%. Death did not occur.

    b. Flamebow (ranged)
    TYPE DAMAGE ENCDPS CHARDPS DPS AVERAGE RESIST HITS CRIT% EFFECTIVENESS
    All 49,194 603.61 603.61 610.35 552.74 All 89 15% 23.9%
    Ranged Attack 49,194 603.61 603.61 610.35 552.74 Physical 89 15% 23.9%
    Killing 0 0.00 0.00 0.00 NaN Death 0 NaN NaN
    Death occurred on average at 01:21.

    4) Analysis
    The control data confirm a near-constant and fixed damage source.
    Mean control damage was 1040 DPH for Lava and 2150 DPH for Flamebows.

    The Dig-In test conditions were also consistent with Mean Dig-In damage was 18 DPH for Lava and 553 DPH for Flamebows.

    5) Conclusions
    Dig-In absorbed ~100% of the Lava damage and ~75% of the Flamebow damage.
    Dig-In increased Flamebow survival duration by 500%.


    6) Discussion
    These results suggest that Dig-In, in it’s present state, does improve survivability of the Vanguard in low DPH encounters.

    Although Dig-In appears to be working as described, it’s practical use in PvE remains in question.
    The most common criticism of this tab-function is it’s complete immobility and lack of continual threat generation. This may result in the Vanguard losing aggro to teammates DPSing through the duration of Dig-In.


    I will repeat these tests again after the 3/29/19 patch. Comparison of the “old” and “new” Dig-In may guide our feedback on making it useful.

    Edit
    Clarification.
    I use incoming "DPH" to mean Damage per HIT (not unit of time).
    Average hit damage is a more meaningful measure of mitigation then damage-over-time for a class that has a very high number of incoming hits or when measuring only one damage source.
    The fighter had both in this test.
    The conclusions are largely unchanged even when you look at incoming DPS.
    Post edited by dread4moor on
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Posts: 152Member Arc User
    > @gripnir78 said:
    > @asterdahl will put more feedback after saturday changes to ratings and general skills toning but I have a kind request :D regaring a Enforced Threat skill.
    >
    > I already suggested that but will repeat it - add even smalles damage magnitude to it - even 10 or 5.
    > I belive any tank would use a indicator what mobs are affected with this skill - its more QOL change....

    +1
  • pyc87pyc87 Posts: 20Member Arc User
    gripnir78 said:

    @asterdahl will put more feedback after saturday changes to ratings and general skills toning but I have a kind request :D regaring a Enforced Threat skill.

    I already suggested that but will repeat it - add even smalles damage magnitude to it - even 10 or 5.
    I belive any tank would use a indicator what mobs are affected with this skill - its more QOL change....

    What is a "QOL"?
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Posts: 152Member Arc User
    edited March 28
    > @pyc87 said:
    > What is a "QOL"?

    "Quality of life". In this case making things a little easier for the tank

    @gripnir78 Wouldn't adding the old threatening Rush mark to M16 enforced threat give almost the same effect?
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Posts: 308Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    > @pyc87 said:

    > What is a "QOL"?



    "Quality of life". In this case making things a little easier for the tank



    @gripnir78 Wouldn't adding the old threatening Rush mark to M16 enforced threat give almost the same effect?

    Of course, it would be even better then another number floating around, but it seems that they removed a Mark both as mechanic/debuff and as graphic... but sure,... yeah - wouldn't mind at all to get it back
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Posts: 308Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    gripnir78 said:

    @asterdahl will put more feedback after saturday changes to ratings and general skills toning but I have a kind request :D regaring a Enforced Threat skill.

    I already suggested that but will repeat it - add even smalles damage magnitude to it - even 10 or 5.
    I belive any tank would use a indicator what mobs are affected with this skill - its more QOL change....

    Not even just tanking QOL; would also provide an AoE for soloing.
    Yes, good point - we were stripped of any AoE encounter last patch- wouldnt mind of ET returning in all its glory - you know with visual marks and some dps on top - would be great.... but I doubt we can count on such kindness form a devs team are we @asterdahl ?
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 975Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    > @wilbur626 said:
    > > @pyc87 said:
    > > What is a "QOL"?
    >
    > "Quality of life". In this case making things a little easier for the tank
    >
    > @gripnir78 Wouldn't adding the old threatening Rush mark to M16 enforced threat give almost the same effect?

    T-Rush and Enforced threat had the exact same mark in both VFX and debuff.

    Agree, we need a visual. In a crowd it's impossible to tell who you have/have not aggroed.

    @pyc87
    Качество жизни. Мелочи, которые облегчают жизнь.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • pyc87pyc87 Posts: 20Member Arc User
    edited March 28

    > @wilbur626 said:

    > > @pyc87 said:

    > > What is a "QOL"?

    >

    > "Quality of life". In this case making things a little easier for the tank

    >

    > @gripnir78 Wouldn't adding the old threatening Rush mark to M16 enforced threat give almost the same effect?



    T-Rush and Enforced threat had the exact same mark in both VFX and debuff.



    Agree, we need a visual. In a crowd it's impossible to tell who you have/have not aggroed.



    @pyc87

    Качество жизни. Мелочи, которые облегчают жизнь.
    Thanks, I already seem to adapt myself to understand), with the abbreviation more difficult :)
    Спасибо я уже кажется приноровился понимать) , с Аббревиатурами сложнее


    Agree, we need a visual. In a crowd it's impossible to tell who you have/have not aggroed.

    +
  • xtremozxtremoz Posts: 205Member Arc User
    HP boon, the change to boons where now we can have 1k 5/5 in 4 different tears so 20k HP its giving me 0 HP even with all 4 5/5. Every1 having this problem?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,037Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    While I know some of these bugs were reported in previous pages, it seems there has been no work done on fixing these bugs.

    Bugs:
    Prepared Slam (former: Prepared Thrust) still buffs Tremor (the former Lunging Strike) rather than the stated Shield Slam.

    There are no (displayed) heroic feats.

    Into the Fray still grants its ridiculous AP Gain bonus.

    Vengeful Blade still blocks Barbarian's Revelry.

    Heavy Slash still only deals 80 magnitude damage, despite the tooltip saying 100.


    (21 STR and no gear/buffs besides 100 fixed damage weapon and Maze Engine transmute shield.
    1+ (0.0025*21)=1.00525
    84.2/1.0525= 80).


    Feedback:
    Shake it Off needs to be a universal mechanic of Dig In/Seethe. Possibly lower damage in PvP only?
    Seeing as Dig In seems to be set in stone, at least give the move a more tangible differentiation from the classic Guard with the out of shield attack.

    Possibly lower its damage if overwhelming in PvP (in theory, I think it's balanced in PvP by being tied into Dig In and having a long cooldown. If you're using Dig In rather than regular Guard, your opponent knows you're planning for this, and the long cooldown means you can't spam this "get off me" attack).

    The Tier 3 stat based feats on Vanguard are confusing. Also worth noting: the Critical Deflection one is near useless due to noworries' "great" stat changes.

    I don't even know if these feats work, but I don't want to test it without having a fixed damaging dummy to work with (see last suggestion).

    I initially was going to say these feats were useless, but then I realized that you aren't supposed to stay behind shield 24/7 and you are supposed to take damage out of shield. The Combat Balance one seems ok and makes sense (Defensive stats on the defensive path), but the Critical Deflection one seems pretty bad.

    It is practically impossible to Deflect attacks thanks to noworries new stat changes. Even if you do get enough stat points to get 50% Deflect Chance, you end up with a huge imbalance between Crit and Deflect due to being forced into investing into ArmorPen and barely having any stats to balance your Crit with (making the feat restore little stamina, therefore: useless).

    Needs to be retooled to work off other stats (balance between HP/Defense/Deflect?).

    Old Knight's Valor needs to come back, or a variant that covers all teammates does, even if it requires a feat.
    I get that Phalanx is intended to be the team protection tool, but it's pretty annoying we can't choose who we want to protect aside from positioning ourselves next to our intended target and praying KV protects our intended target.

    Can we please get the fixed damage "attacking" dummies?
    One for attacking with no conditions,one that attacks you with CA, and one that attacks you for Crit damage?


    On Owlbear week 1, you or noworries stated we'd get a training dummy that would attack players with fixed damage.That way, we could easily test the "-damage taken" things or just test other things like damage taken to Vengeance.

    I didn't see any fixed damage attacking enemy, and it's fairly hard to see whether some things work or not (ex: Enduring Warrior) without knowing the base damage of enemies. Hopefully, we can get these promised dummies?

  • dolreydolrey Posts: 605Member Arc User
    edited April 6
    Feedback about feats changes.

    Overall changes in feats looks interesting. But some mechanics of vanguard are not logical and should be tuned a bit in my opinion.


    I.


    Feat [Critical Deflection] looks not logical. Vanguard is supposed to be tanky path and chance of crit is not tanky stat at all to focus on it. Moreover tanky tanks prefer to maximise deflection chance. So conditions for activation of this feat will never be reached by tanks.

    I would like to suggest to reverse condition of this feat so it will be activated when your deflection chance is higher than crit chance. Or just delete at all this condition because different temporary buffs of other classes can change your stats so this feat just can have anti synergy with different buffs (buffs just will debuff you what is wrong i think).





    II.


    Feat [Combat balance] has too tricky conditions too. In practice it is just impossible to make 3 stats absolutely equal so it always will be close to 10% but not 10%.

    This condition really looks strange. Possibly it would be better to delete it at all because as I have already wrote different temporary buffs of other classes can change your stats so this feat just can have anti synergy with different buffs (buffs just will debuff you what is wrong I think). Or you just can replace this feat with old one [Armor of bahamut] which is much more logical and effective.






    So this pair of feats (previously discussed [Critical Deflection] and [Combat balance]) will be kind a polar feats. [Critical Deflection] will give you benefits when incoming damage is relatively low. While [Combat balance] will be more effective when you just do not have time to restore stamina surviving under high incoming damage.



    III.


    [Perfect Block] looks cool and finally make vanguard much more tanky and effective against burst damage than dreadnought. Also this feat no longer has same effect of another daily power [Bladed rampart] wich already give damage mitigation buff. But 180 seconds cooldown on [Determination]!! I am absolutely agree that such strong feat should not be spamable. But this cooldown also decreases resistance to control effects what is not right.

    In my opinion it would be better to add this 180 sec cooldown only to this feat to [Determination] should be availeble wthout cooldown (it just should activate [perfect block] every 180 seconds). And it would be better to add icon in buff bar to give to players info when [Perfect Block] is on cooldown (like [Ferocious reaction] works in m15). Also probably this cooldown should be reseted after death to make this feat more responsive in PvP.





    ____
    So different artifacts or powers like this will just turn off previously described 2 feats. Not good.

    Post edited by dolrey on

  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Posts: 1,007Member Arc User
    Hi to all :) and goodmorning o/

    Dig In changes are interesting,but the animation "lock" prevents the easy use of this mechanic.
    I mean,what ,whenever you release Dig In,you do not get out of it,untill you move or you execute another encounter/att will.
    This way,Dig In is not so responsive as it should be.


    Tide Of Iron multiple buffs seem interesting,but to make this att will usefull,animation locks on,have to go.If you use ToI ,you cannot swap as fast as with other att wills,to agravating/guarding strike ,or an encounter.
    Add to that the universal utility of threatening Rush that simply cannot go away,is a must,and you have to choose between ToI and Brazen Slash.But BS is more responsive and has an unbeatable utility.So I cannot see use of ToI except boss fights.


    Phalanx daily is still underperforming.The coverage area is too small,the handicap of it,not blocking ,moving and the minimum DR increase,makes it a "time out" daily.As more powerfull enemies will be introduced in NW as bosses,Phalanx will be unable to protect team.
    Also the whole concept of Phalanx ,is agaisnt the old and new concept of GF/Fighter.Fighter was always -among HR-the most action based class in NW.A class that had to be played with reflexes ,positioning and battlefield knowledge.
    Phalanx makes Fighter,still and passive.

    Extremely dissapointed of the removal of the feat that made Frontline Surge to not knock enemies.
    Now FLS cannot be used in PVE.Well ,except if the poor Fighter wants to hear the taunts of the rest of the team for scattering the mobs.
    Suggestion:remove prone for pve all together.Make it a stun or interupt ,or anything at all..For pvp I dont know,:/ but for pve,why just not remove the prone effect?





    Slyblade Kobold companion bonus,make a hold target getting 100% more damage is bugged and debuffs ,at least Anvil make it hitting in the 10-30 range
  • pyc87pyc87 Posts: 20Member Arc User
    Do you have changes on the test server? Please give a link
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 975Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Dig In Version 2
    Repeated low DPH testing:]
    (Using identical Methods and Conditions as above)
    4) Analysis
    Lava caused 1069 DPH on Control and 594 DPH on Dig In
    Flamebow caused 2159 DPH on Control and 882 DPH on Dig In
    Dig In (v.2) reduced Lava damage by 55% and Flamebow damage by 41%.
    Dig In (v.2) increased Flamebow survival by 233%.
    For comparison, Dig In(v1) offered 100%/75% protection and 500% test survival.

    5) Conclusions
    These results suggest that Dig-In (v.2), does improve survival of the Vanguard in low DPH encounters.
    Dig In (v.2) appears to be working as described.
    Dig In (v.2) offers 45%/34% less protection and 47% less survival then Dig In (v1).

    6) Discussion
    The Tab function now offers less personal protection. Not more. Less.
    image
    The problem with Dig-In (v.1) was immobility and inactivity.
    Dig-In (v.2) has immobility, inactivity and vulnerability.
    I am a baffled as to how reducing the Dig In survival improves it's usefulness.
    The only logical assumption is that multiple other party-protecting factors have been added such as passive threat generation during the Dig-In.

    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 975Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 30
    image
    In addition to controlled Dig In testing I ran about 6 hours of preview PvE and party content on Vanguard after the patch.

    1) Fighter Improvements:
    A. Threat/Aggro
    Many more tools for generating threat, including the feat for Shield Throw. It works very well as a gap-closing opener.
    As close to a ranged taunt as we're getting.
    The feat for tide of iron is a great boost to it's usefulness.
    We now can fill our tray with 100% "threat stat" building powers: Shield Throw, ET, Shield Slam, Tide of Iron, Threatening Rush
    Feeling the "Jane equation", @asterdahl .
    Ran three T2s with a 3:1:1 composition. Held aggro fairly well on bosses. I could tell the difference.
    B. Increased HP
    Hey, who doesn't like HP?

    C. Dig In
    The new Dig In is much more ergonomic. More fluid. Entering and leaving it is much simpler.
    Dig in v.1 felt like locking myself in a chest. Trapped, not protected.
    Dig In v.2 Feels like..., well, I'm kneeling behind my shield. Not trapped. Release the tab and we are up quickly.
    Much better.
    Just press and hold. Just like shift/shield.

    Areas of Uncertainty:
    "Dig-In"
    Yes. Dig-In is indeed easier to use.
    Just press and hold. Just like shift/shield. This is the problem
    They look alike. They sound alike. They feel (button-hold/release) alike. They serve the same basic purpose.
    image
    Now, the Breathe and Shake it off feats may make it useful.
    But Shake it off's description is pretty confusing.
    Do I shift block THEN tab block/DigIn?
    Does the threat- generation occur DURING Dig In or afterward?


    Edit:
    Forgot to mention the 50% shield.
    I can feel the difference. Threat generation is increased which is good news. Bad news is the shield is going down pretty fast.
    And yes, I can take alot more damage, but would rather have those HP in my shield.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • xdruidgregxxdruidgregx Posts: 57Member Arc User


    "Dig-In"
    Yes. Dig-In is indeed easier to use.
    Just press and hold. Just like shift/shield. This is the problem

    I agree with that. I have played a bit today and I've noticed now I have 2 keys that pretty much do same thing.

    It would make sense to me if Dig In have separate stamina bar or even go step further and charge Dig In stamina while bloking attacks with normal guard. Other then that in my opinion while in Dig In Fighter should be rooted in place, some might say its not that useful but still if i sit there doing nothing i might as well be rooted and not worry if mobs will push me off my spot.


  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 975Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    For context, here is my preview Vanguard.
    image
    900 level gear, rank 14 defensive enchants
    330,000 HP
    Maxed all possible defensive Boons
    Not perfect, but certainly a solid tank build so far.

    Ran a few more T2s, tried shift shield and Tab Dig-In (version 2.0) in every conceivable tanking situation:
    Large packs of trash mobs
    Small packs of trash and a mini-boss
    Boss fights...
    Except for trash mobs (where I don't need to Turtle anyway) the reduced stamina shield gets smashed instantly...
    Mid-level bosses are 1-shotting me straight through the shift shield AND the Tab-Dig-IN.

    Here's an example. Lostmauth. Mid to low level dungeon.
    image
    Scorpions ganking me through shift AND tab 100% of the time.

    And check this combat log on the final fight:
    [Combat (Self)] Your Block absorbs 91968 damage from Molten Gold's Molten Gold.
    [Combat (Self)] Stalactite deals 143493 (371250) Physical Damage to you with Falling Stalactite.
    [Combat (Self)] Stalactite gives 0 Knockback to you with Falling Stalactite.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Not enough Action Points.
    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Amazia 1 gives 55588 (54232) Hit Points to you with Bastion of Health.
    [Combat (Self)] Not enough Action Points.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Amazia 1 gives 26007 (25373) Hit Points to you with Bastion of Health.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Sigil of the Cleric gives 590 (576) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Amazia 1 gives 24397 (23802) Hit Points to you with Bastion of Health.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Sigil of the Cleric gives 590 (576) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Must have a target.
    [Combat (Self)] Still recharging...
    [Combat (Self)] Must have a target.
    [Combat (Self)] Still recharging...
    [Combat (Self)] Lostmauth deals 11178 (11698) Fire Damage to you with Fire Aura.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Block absorbs 91968 damage from Molten Gold's Molten Gold.
    [Combat (Self)] Molten Gold deals 2070206 Fire Damage to you with Molten Gold.
    [Error] You have fallen in battle!

    Note those damage numbers. 2 Million damage. Blasted through that 90k shield like it was paper.
    Shift shield failed instantly on every big hit.
    330K HP and endgame gear. Smashed like a bug over and over and over.
    I can't keep running away. It's my job to get in their face and keep smacking to keep aggro (which is better now... thanks?)

    And Dig-In was worse. It absorbed a bit more damage then shift, but I have to squat unmoving in the middle of concentric red circles knowing the next hit will kill me.
    With shift-shield at least I can try to strafe into better position.

    @asterdahl , not asking for permashield or an easy button.
    I'm really, really trying to give this a chance.
    Spent 8 hours on preview trying to figure it out.
    A tank must be mobile. A shield must be able to withstand a few big hits.
    If my tank, (in all modesty) far from the weakest in the game cannot stand up to a low tier boss, how will all the newer tanks survive?
    I am beyond frustrated.
    Please, please explain how we are supposed to use this 50% shield and statue-of-liberty-pose Tab when bosses smash them with ease?
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • klangeddinklangeddin Posts: 876Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 31
    Bug: Shieldthrower feat says that it reduces the magnitude of Shield Throw to 250, but it actually reduces it to 150.



    Bug: Determination Daily has an unexplainable 2 minutes, 45,8 seconds cooldown.



    Feedback:

    1) Vanguard's AoE is mostly frontal or cone, this is a luxury that tanks can't always afford. Tremor should really be an universal skill, you can move Anvil of Doom to be Dreadnaught only and the taunt feat could be reworked to give Tremor more threat instead. That way you would also quell any "tank has too much dps concern".

    2) Dig In and Shield Block are redundant. No matter how you buff Dig In, the only thing you can achieve is that you will trivialize block, and we'll just swap our Tab for out Shift Key. Fighter's Tab should be something substantially different from the Shift.

    3) Iron Warrior and Knight's Valor are subpar. I cannot foresee any situation where I would slot these powers, honestly. Especially Iron Warrior, the long cast time alone is probably dangerous enough to offset the measly 20% DR gain, and all the benefits from mod 15 are gone too. Consider taking another pass at these powers, especially consider making Iron Warrior cast instant and while moving, like Into The Fray.

    4) Several passive powers (the yellow ones you slot 2 of them) are too weak to be bothered with and you generally end up with Shield Talent + something else and stick with it because the others are just too weak to make any sort of difference.

    Post edited by klangeddin on
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