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Official M16: Fighter Feedback

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  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 977Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    Latest Update:
    Bugs:

    Ricochet:

    -The description needs to be reworded to be less confusing, as it might be confusing to figure out whether the "(x)%" less relative to the first hit, or to each subsequent hit. I think it would be easier to say the shield can hit a total of 4 enemies, with the second hit dealing 250 magnitude, 3rd dealing 150 magnitude, and fourth dealing 100 magnitude.


    If you divide every hit by 1.0425 (17 STR * 0.025% = 4.25% damage bonus), you get base damage values of 350, 250, 150, and 100 magnitude respectively.

    -While the feat is pretty hilarious to watch, the feat doesn't make sense in that slot of the DPS spec. In Tier 2, both options are dedicated to AoE damage, which means that players will effectively have a "wasted" feat in most boss fights.

    Here are my suggestions to Ricochet:
    -The feat is merged with Shieldthrower in the Vanguard tree, making Shield Throw serve as a ranged Enforced Threat (hits multiple targets, no longer stuns but generates bonus threat on targets hit). The feat could also be interesting if the stun was kept in as a Vanguard exclusive feat, as stunning multiple targets could make Shield Throw as a tool to use to engage safely/get breathing room.
    - After merging Ricochet with Shieldthrower, move Weight of Vengeance replaces the now empty slot in the Tier 2 of the DPS path.


    Ricochet would make much more sense in the Vanguard tree.
    Using a lightning enchantment it could aggro an entire room full of mobs.
    We have been begging for ranged aggro (RIP Tab Mark).
    The current Vanguard feat "Shield Thrower" is pretty good.
    image
    Grabs threat well and the short cooldown is great.
    But it is single target.
    Let the Dreadnaught have a high DPS stunning Shield throw.
    Let the Vanguard have a multitarget aggro Ricochet.
    "Ping-ping-PING"

    image
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • picar66picar66 Posts: 109Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Fighter (Vanguard)

    Feat. Combat Balance
    Whenever you are not blocking decreases damage taken by up to 10% (till here ok, but sentence goes:) IF your critical avoidence rating, deflect rating and awarness rating are equal.
    I cant see if they are equal. Equal to themself or equal to enemy?

    Dont understand this feature.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 977Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    > @picar66 said:
    > Fighter (Vanguard)
    >
    > Feat. Combat Balance
    > Whenever you are not blocking decreases damage taken by up to 10% (till here ok, but sentence goes:) IF your critical avoidence rating, deflect rating and awarness rating are equal.
    > I cant see if they are equal. Equal to themself or equal to enemy?
    >
    > Dont understand this feature.

    This has been my thought from day 1 of preview.
    I think they mean equal to each other.
    eg. 40000, 40000 and 40000.

    That is, ofc, impossible, impractical and inefficient.
    I tried last week.
    Like removing one blue square from the middle of a red side on a Rubik's cube.

    Requires so much switching of gear, runes and enchants you end of losing many other feat/power combos in order to achieve it.

    TLDR
    Combat Balance is not worth the sacrifice.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • abelcoeurdacierabelcoeurdacier Posts: 36Member Arc User
    edited April 13
    I just played a little on the test server, it became worse than anything for the tank's tree.

    You simply impose tab block on us by adding graphic effects and damage feedback when players don't want it.

    But now we can no longer block normally with the mouse, in 2s the blocking bar empties and you will die.
    Not only does the blocking gauge depend on the strength but also on the health points, but it doesn't regenerate, there is no chance you can use it in a dungeon.


    So we end up with a tab block anti gameplay in pole mode that throws splinters, and a mouse block that is useless.

    I don't know what this class did to you but you reward very badly the players who are loyal to you since the beta of the game...

    STOP THE DIG IN, YOU UNDERSTAND?


    Give us the reactive and functional mouse block with the normal vigor gauge, you can even integrate the damage return on block it's quite nice and it's in the spirit of the game.

    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

    A french dwarf.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User
    "Counterattack effect granted to Dig In by the feat Shake it Off is now a core class mechanic called Retaliate which deals magnitude 300 damage with added threat and the damage is not based on remaining stamina. "

    This was the right choice.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User

    I just played a little on the test server, it became worse than anything for the tank's tree.

    You simply impose tab block on us by adding graphic effects and damage feedback when players don't want it.

    But now we can no longer block normally with the mouse, in 2s the blocking bar empties and you will die.
    Not only does the blocking gauge depend on the strength but also on the health points, but it doesn't regenerate, there is no chance you can use it in a dungeon.


    So we end up with a tab block anti gameplay in pole mode that throws splinters, and a mouse block that is useless.

    I don't know what this class did to you but you reward very badly the players who are loyal to you since the beta of the game...

    STOP THE DIG IN, YOU UNDERSTAND?


    Give us the reactive and functional mouse block with the normal vigor gauge, you can even integrate the damage return on block it's quite nice and it's in the spirit of the game.

    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

    A french dwarf.

    You're supposed to use at-wills that regenerate stamina. If you die instantly when you drop your guard, that's a balance issue (and probably a bug, because it is 100% counter to @asterdahl 's design philosophy for tanking and the intended damage paradigm for this mod, and should be called out as such)
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    I want Fighters to work, but things get difficult when you run into a level 80 player with stats 30k worse than yours at level 80. When we are both scaled in a HE and I have 50k ArP and they have 20k, they are not going to be effective compared to me. (They were Vanguard, I was on my OP as Justicar.) The gap didn’t improve when we left the HE.

    I mean buggy monsters like the Ogres that randomly appear (in HEs) and hit for 400k plus damage, or the first Prowie mob in MC are going to be a problem, but those are essentially reportable bugs.

    Attention to gear and stats is an important thing for us as players.

    Those big numbers matter, at Level 80 you basically need 60k in ArP at a minimum, Crit Strike, and Accuracy are good as well. The simple reality is if you are not looking after HP (about 400k for tanks seems to work) and the other stats, you are going to struggle with the content. But that isn’t the fault of the changes.

    It’s not that you cannot Test with weak characters, we should, but we also have to recognise where problems exist with the class and problems exist with our character.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 977Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    I just played a little on the test server, it became worse than anything for the tank's tree.
    You simply impose tab block on us by adding graphic effects and damage feedback when players don't want it.
    But now we can no longer block normally with the mouse, in 2s the blocking bar empties and you will die.
    Not only does the blocking gauge depend on the strength but also on the health points, but it doesn't regenerate, there is no chance you can use it in a dungeon.
    So we end up with a tab block anti gameplay in pole mode that throws splinters, and a mouse block that is useless.
    I don't know what this class did to you but you reward very badly the players who are loyal to you since the beta of the game...

    STOP THE DIG IN, YOU UNDERSTAND?


    Give us the reactive and functional mouse block with the normal vigor gauge, you can even integrate the damage return on block it's quite nice and it's in the spirit of the game.

    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

    A french dwarf.

    Je ressens ta douleur mon ami.
    The first time playing Vanguard will be rather shocking for everyone.

    Not gonna repeat my preview-tested arguments explaining why Tab-Dig In is a bad idea and contrary to Asterdahl's vision of NW2 tanking...
    'cause I've done that like 20 times already.
    The answer was silence, which translates to "yeah... no. It's not changing."
    So not worth repeating.

    Instead, will echo your concerns on how quickly the shift-Block can be broken.
    The 2nd patch nerf to shift shield (50% down from 100% HP) makes it unusable against most bosses.

    Putting those HP on your toon is not an equal trade.
    You can regenerate your shield alot easier then you can regenerate 50% of your HP (without assistance from a healer).
    @asterdahl Please consider returning the Vanguard shield to 100%HP. The extra personal HP do not make up for a weak shield.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User

    I just played a little on the test server, it became worse than anything for the tank's tree.
    You simply impose tab block on us by adding graphic effects and damage feedback when players don't want it.
    But now we can no longer block normally with the mouse, in 2s the blocking bar empties and you will die.
    Not only does the blocking gauge depend on the strength but also on the health points, but it doesn't regenerate, there is no chance you can use it in a dungeon.
    So we end up with a tab block anti gameplay in pole mode that throws splinters, and a mouse block that is useless.
    I don't know what this class did to you but you reward very badly the players who are loyal to you since the beta of the game...

    STOP THE DIG IN, YOU UNDERSTAND?


    Give us the reactive and functional mouse block with the normal vigor gauge, you can even integrate the damage return on block it's quite nice and it's in the spirit of the game.

    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

    A french dwarf.

    Je ressens ta douleur mon ami.
    The first time playing Vanguard will be rather shocking for everyone.

    Not gonna repeat my preview-tested arguments explaining why Tab-Dig In is a bad idea and contrary to Asterdahl's vision of NW2 tanking...
    'cause I've done that like 20 times already.
    The answer was silence, which translates to "yeah... no. It's not changing."
    So not worth repeating.

    Instead, will echo your concerns on how quickly the shift-Block can be broken.
    The 2nd patch nerf to shift shield (50% down from 100% HP) makes it unusable against most bosses.

    Putting those HP on your toon is not an equal trade.
    You can regenerate your shield alot easier then you can regenerate 50% of your HP (without assistance from a healer).
    @asterdahl Please consider returning the Vanguard shield to 100%HP. The extra personal HP do not make up for a weak shield.
    Can we verify that Defense and other forms of damage reduction are still not applying to block?
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 977Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    I just played a little on the test server, it became worse than anything for the tank's tree.
    You simply impose tab block on us by adding graphic effects and damage feedback when players don't want it.
    But now we can no longer block normally with the mouse, in 2s the blocking bar empties and you will die.
    Not only does the blocking gauge depend on the strength but also on the health points, but it doesn't regenerate, there is no chance you can use it in a dungeon.
    So we end up with a tab block anti gameplay in pole mode that throws splinters, and a mouse block that is useless.
    I don't know what this class did to you but you reward very badly the players who are loyal to you since the beta of the game...

    STOP THE DIG IN, YOU UNDERSTAND?


    Give us the reactive and functional mouse block with the normal vigor gauge, you can even integrate the damage return on block it's quite nice and it's in the spirit of the game.

    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

    A french dwarf.

    Je ressens ta douleur mon ami.
    The first time playing Vanguard will be rather shocking for everyone.

    Not gonna repeat my preview-tested arguments explaining why Tab-Dig In is a bad idea and contrary to Asterdahl's vision of NW2 tanking...
    'cause I've done that like 20 times already.
    The answer was silence, which translates to "yeah... no. It's not changing."
    So not worth repeating.

    Instead, will echo your concerns on how quickly the shift-Block can be broken.
    The 2nd patch nerf to shift shield (50% down from 100% HP) makes it unusable against most bosses.

    Putting those HP on your toon is not an equal trade.
    You can regenerate your shield alot easier then you can regenerate 50% of your HP (without assistance from a healer).
    @asterdahl Please consider returning the Vanguard shield to 100%HP. The extra personal HP do not make up for a weak shield.
    Can we verify that Defense and other forms of damage reduction are still not applying to block?
    Challenge accepted.
    Logging on to preview Test Took.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,041Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited April 13



    Can we verify that Defense and other forms of damage reduction are still not applying to block?

    They work.

    Asterdahl told me the traditional damage rolls (ie, defense/deflect/etc) would apply all the way back on week 1 of owlbear, but it's good to check later.

    I tested in Hotenow (mostly to see how Took was doing, seemed to be having fun getting roasted by the Archons) versus an Ashen Miner.

    These were my stats in the test.


    It's not a really "controlled" test, since we don't even know enemy stats for level 56 enemies. However, seeing as my Defense is close to 57,000 and my Deflect is greater than 7000, I would hit pretty close to the DR cap on level 70 enemies and I would have a chance to Deflect on level 70 enemies.

    It's logical to assume that lower level enemies would have less ArmorPen/Accuracy values, so it's reasonable to just say I hit the DR Cap/ have some chance to Deflect on the level 56 enemies.



    The first two hits are a Deflect (Dodge) and just a basic hit mitigated by DR (effectiveness: 50%). Then the next few hits are shielded, of which you see that I still have 50% effectiveness done to my shield and even get a Deflect (dodge) proc done on shield.

  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 977Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited April 13
    Defense Premitigation of Shield Test
    image
    Background:
    Speculation exists over pre-mitigation for shift-block damage. Is the shield protected by defense stat?
    Objective:
    To demonstrate the absence or presence of defense premitigation of the fighter shift-block.
    The Null Hypothesis is “the shift block is not protected by defense stat”.
    Methodology:
    See my earlier tests for description of the naked “Test Took”.
    For this test, used an undifferentiated Fighter (paragon not chosen). All else is unchanged.
    Control is naked Test Took vs fire archons in Hotenow (as previously described).
    Test performed with the addition of emblem of seldarine and sigil of the cleric (~2000 defense).
    Other test conditions unchanged from prior test.
    image
    Results:
    Control

    Import Zone - [3] 3:23:44 PM | Encounter - [00:25] 3:19:42 PM | Harrier Took 17 | Incoming Damage
    Type Damage EncDPS CharDPS DPS Average Resist Hits Crit% Effectiveness
    Ranged Attack 38,550 1,511.76 1,542.00 2,409.38 2,141.67 Physical 18 28% 89.6%
    All 38,550 1,511.76 1,542.00 2,409.38 2,141.67 All 18 28% 89.6%
    Killing 0 0.00 0.00 0.00 NaN Death 0 NaN NaN

    Test
    Import Zone - [4] 3:31:19 PM | Encounter - [00:26] 3:27:08 PM | Harrier Took 17 | Incoming Damage
    Type Damage EncDPS CharDPS DPS Average Resist Hits Crit% Effectiveness
    Ranged Attack 39,903 1,511.48 1,528.85 2,389.40 1,995.15 Physical 20 40% 92.4%
    All 39,903 1,511.48 1,528.85 2,389.40 1,995.15 All 20 40% 92.4%
    Killing 0 0.00 0.00 0.00 NaN Death 0 NaN NaN

    Analysis:
    Control had 2142 DPH, Shield failed in 5.5 secs
    Test had 1995 DPH, Shield failed in 7 secs
    Conclusions:
    Defense stat appears to lower shield damage.
    Discussion:
    It is unclear if this alters our perception of the current shield. Vanguard fighters were already maxing Defense, so it would not change our prior experience with the 50%HP shield.
    It is still not working very well.
    Will repeat with deflect stat.

    Edit:
    Forgot to add... Used 200 level shield and defense-only gear to get the control to the minimum 7000 defense.
    Post edited by dread4moor on
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 977Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited April 14
    Deflection Premitigation of shield test
    Background and Objective:
    See Defense test above. Insert the word "Deflection" for "Defense"

    Methodology:
    Control is naked Test Took with a 230IL Shield and belt (for the defensive enchant slots) vs fire archons in Hotenow (as previously described).
    Note that Test Took deflect was raised to ~7000 (defect minimum).

    Test performed with the addition of a rank 14 silvery and the Mount active power “untouchable” for a total deflection boost of ~3080. This put base deflect above the deflect minimum (7000).
    Credit to Rainer for the stat min/max data:

    Repeated both 10 times, results put in aggregate. Other test conditions unchanged from prior test.

    Results/Analysis (average of 10 runs each):
    Control had 2100 DPH, Shield failed in 5.4 secs
    Test had 2005 DPH, Shield failed in 5.9 secs
    Conclusions:
    Deflect stat appeared to lower shield damage.
    Discussion:
    This was much harder to test than Defense. And the results were... questionably useful.
    3000 deflection is only a 3% increased chance. Would have to run several hundred times to get statistically significant data (or increase the test Deflection by a factor of 10). So I acknowledge the potential source of error (low “p-value”).
    Very hard to add Deflect without adding other defensive stats as they are mostly found in defensive gear.

    Regardless, this certainly doesn't support the viability of a high-deflect build to keep your shift-block up.

    Edit:
    Correction... this has high p-value meaning differences may be due to chance.
    Tooks are not good with stats.
    Post edited by dread4moor on
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • rafaeldarafaelda Posts: 594Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited April 16
    is not mentioned in the patch notes but because the changes made the DPS build lost the feat to allow "Into the fray" to heals, and now you can't have the heavy slash and the executioner at same time...
    Post edited by rafaelda on
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 977Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited April 14
    Regrets for hogging the stage in this forum.
    Irony, after nearly 6 years in-game I finally have alot to contribute... just a few days before the apocalypse. lol

    Re: 4/12/19 Patch...
    Fighter (Dreadnaught)
    Not much to add.
    Dreadnaught is in a pretty good place... compared to some other DPS classes anyway.

    "Knight's Challenge persisted for 2 seconds shorter than indicated in the tooltip."
    Confirmed.

    Fighter (Vanguard)
    "Knight’s Valor transfers all threat generated by the covered party member to the fighter."

    This sounds good. It's passive which breaks your "Jane Rule", but okay.
    Gotta credit Asterdahl. Our loudest complaint was hard to keep threat on Vanguard.
    That has definitely changed.

    "Knight's Valor redirects 100% of damage dealt to your party member."
    No one asked for this.
    The problem w KV was not the magnitude of the protection.
    It was the scope (single target... including pets seemingly).
    Weaken it to, say, 20% if you must. But make it full party.

    "Counterattack effect granted to Dig In by the feat Shake it Off is now a core class mechanic called Retaliate which deals magnitude 300 damage with added threat and..."

    Vanguard:
    I need a screwdriver.
    Dev:
    Here is a hammer.
    Vanguard:
    I already have a hammer.
    I need a screwdriver.
    Dev:
    I understand your concerns.
    Here is a hammer.
    Vanguard:
    What? No... thanks, but I have no use for two hammers. What I really need is one hammer and one screwdriver.
    Dev:
    Thank you for your feedback...
    Here is a hammer.
    Post edited by dread4moor on
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • eion311eion311 Posts: 322Member Arc User
    I look forward to this cluster going live in six days.
  • ultimatefgt123ultimatefgt123 Posts: 93Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    mcfob said:

    Companion powers--3 defensive, 1 offensive, 1utility for the fighter. Barbarian, 2 offensive, 2 defensive, 1 utility. See? Not all classes have the same types, fighters are forced to take 3 defensive even when you are trying to play dps fighter, which you would want OFFENSE heavy.

    +1
    +1
  • ultimatefgt123ultimatefgt123 Posts: 93Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited April 16
    For vanguard why not just have dig in emit pulsing 360 degree aoe damage rather than a burst at the end. Then it would be useful.

    If you made the magnitude proportional to your stamina %, it would start strong and get weaker making it THE ability to use for an opener/ 'oshi' aggro / soft taunt.
  • silence1xsilence1x Posts: 1,487Member Arc User
    Bug: Heavy Slash won't target ambush drakes in Master Expeditions.

    Bug: Fighter does moonwalk; faces wrong direction when moving forward (not even joking). Using at-will corrects the issue for about 10 steps then character direction reverts.
    I aim to misbehave
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,041Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    silence1x said:


    Bug: Fighter does moonwalk; faces wrong direction when moving forward (not even joking). Using at-will corrects the issue for about 10 steps then character direction reverts.

    @wilbur626

    Moonwalk is back!!!

    (Seems as if many old bugs from the earlier weeks got unearthed/unfixed/never fixed at all)

    Also, while we are on the subject of Dig In:

    Bug:
    If you use Dig In/Seethe, are pressing Guard at the same time, and get shield broken, your Stamina will refuse to regenerate far after the shield break ends.

  • tharealcuber#2975 tharealcuber Posts: 28Member Arc User
    Always play on xbox one, started a fresh fighter on preview to check it out but takes too much time to level up for end game testing. So far (lvl 21) my overall feeling is slower/harder progress. Harder not so much of an issue (my recently new characters on console went 0-70 in a weekend), mainly because it seems there is a bit more thought needed to kill bigger enemies instead of just hit at-wills and spam dailies.

    Hopefully it gets a bit better with feeling of progress after level 30 (paragon path) because uptill now I didn't even notice getting new powers untill I checked the power menu. Only to find out there is no use to check it out because a fixed power is unlocked. Yeah you can choose the new power if you want to, but not needed to continue.

    The fun of hitting a new level and check out what you can choose to improve you character is gone.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 977Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Always play on xbox one, started a fresh fighter on preview to check it out but takes too much time to level up for end game testing. So far (lvl 21) my overall feeling is slower/harder progress. Harder not so much of an issue (my recently new characters on console went 0-70 in a weekend), mainly because it seems there is a bit more thought needed to kill bigger enemies instead of just hit at-wills and spam dailies.

    Hopefully it gets a bit better with feeling of progress after level 30 (paragon path) because uptill now I didn't even notice getting new powers untill I checked the power menu. Only to find out there is no use to check it out because a fixed power is unlocked. Yeah you can choose the new power if you want to, but not needed to continue.

    The fun of hitting a new level and check out what you can choose to improve you character is gone.

    Some preview leveling advice:
    Visit the wondrous bazaar, fill up on free enchants, use all available campaign completion tokens (which should, in theory, give you boon points).
    Fill utility slots with azures.
    Level your fighter as Dreadnaught (not Vanguard). You can always respec or create a Vanguard loadout later.
    Level by running endgame campaign missions only. These give the highest experience and drop the best gear.
    All of this will immediately make preview leveling easier/faster.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,041Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    @asterdahl

    I know you're busy and all with publishing the build for Mod 16's release in 6 days, but I was wondering if you knew if the Heavy Slash artifact mainhand bonus boosts the damage of the additional 200 magnitude from?

    For that matter, would the damage of procs like Crushing Blow or Executioner's Cut be increased by the Brazen Slash offhand bonus, assuming that those procs came from Brazen Slash?

    It's not very easy to figure these things out due to the artifact weapons not having a stable weapon damae range.

    (Yes, I note the irony of me pointing out training weapons having the artifact bonuses as a bug. Then the dev team deletes the bonuses, and now I'd want them to test stuff with those artifact bonuses.)

    I also was wondering if you would post all the abilities' aggro multipliers here (or somewhere) at some point. It would be useful to know what abilities have what aggro multipliers, as our only clue/clues are from your post on page 13 of this thread, which has us guessing the tank passive increases aggro by 500% (5x) and all other abilities increasing aggro by 200% (2x).

  • ultimatefgt123ultimatefgt123 Posts: 93Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Iron warrior animation is waaaay too slow, when attacked by a pack of mobs they can kill you before you even finish the animation cast of the skill. If you dont let the animation completely finish then it doesnt cast. majorly sucks.

    linebreaker feels slow and sloppy to use - you can get hit by the mob(s) that you are charging prior to the animation ending and dealing damage to them
  • picar66picar66 Posts: 109Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Interruption of powers is a long story for all and specially for GF. GF hast most long animations and power doesnt trigger if animation isnt ending. Look at gwf there are long animations too, but the power hits before animation end, so its wise to self Interrupt with jump/sprint to be higher in dps (prior mod16). That is impossible for GF since mod1 on all powers. Unfair, but true and no change in mod16. That is really unfair.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    Greetings everyone. As I indicated in my previous post, I had to step away from the forums as we closed in on the final release candidate, there simply weren't enough calendar hours remaining to hit all the remaining feedback items and bugs while also posting regularly. However, this week, we built our release candidate—so I now have some time to reply again.


    Thanks for the response on Enforced Threat and its ilk; that actually helps its function and ideal timing in a fight to click a bit better. I'd still like to see some damage on it to give it a more rotational role (we just don't have enough powers available at a time for it to feel good to put something on your bar that, if the fight is going well, is almost never on cooldown. I know there's been a focus on pruning the function of powers that do a lot of things at once; it seems to me that a similar thing to avoid is "powers that you never ever slot when [choose one of: solo/group]" so allowing it to keep some of its niche of being effective against big packs of little things seems like a good move)

    I take your meaning, but how easy it would be to land that skillshot would depend entirely on how generous the collision path is. If it were only as wide as the character model, it would definitely still be possible to whiff, but even then, at least it wouldn't turn you around and face your back directly to three enemies that, at the time you pressed the button, were in line to be hit by it.
    The problem I'm having with Linebreaker stems from the comorbid interaction of three factors: the activation time is a little long(or maybe just a little unresponsive? need to test it some more), the mob AI is very aggressive about repositioning, and the origin point of Linebreaker's damage cone is fairly unforgiving. I'm certainly not going to beat a drum that a power be fundamentally changed for my sake, but I don't think making it a little easier to hit multiple targets would be a bad thing, either-maybe a hemispherical burst? Just spitballing, there, but the fact remains that, as it stands, that power feels frustrating to use about as often as it feels good.

    I like the sound of those Dig In changes, although the counterattack feature really feels like something that should be baked into the ability, rather than something locked behind a feat for... how many levels? It almost single-handedly turns it from a redundant second block to an active tool; it seems a shame to delay that until your second-to-last feat. Perhaps make the counterattack part of the feature, and have the feat either reduce the cooldown or turn it into a Burst effect?
    Given the aforementioned reluctance of mobs to group up tightly, how many enemies in a pack of, say. five, would you expect an average player to be able to hit with that cone?

    Honest question, and I welcome any answer, even if it's not the one I want to hear: are you guys, as a team, at all open to moving feats away from the "slot this one power or this feat does nothing" paradigm, or the even more frustrating "slot these two powers or this feat does nothing" one? Feats have the potential to add a lot of depth and variety to the game, but it just feels... I don't want to say oppressive, but it's somewhere in that emotional spectrum- to look at your character and realize that a nonflexible part of your build is completely negating the flexibility of the supposedly flexible part.

    I know that comparing rival games isn't the best rhetorical technique, but the reason that WoW can have talents that only affect a specific power and not have them feel bad is that those have no opportunity cost- granting that power additional functionality doesn't stop you from using any of your other powers, so it only adds something. Because Neverwinter characters pull a small, flexible selection of powers from a larger list, any feat that only functions for a specific power (or combination of powers) has an inherent, and hefty, opportunity cost.

    In regards to Dig In and the reworked "Shake It Off" feat, the counterattack element has been reworked into a core part of Dig In, as a class mechanic: "Retaliate." The basic version of Retaliate will be available immediately upon choosing Vanguard, and the "Shake it Off" feat will now grant bonus damage based on your remaining stamina. In regards to the size of the cone, you've probably had a chance to play with it a bit by now, but it is fairly large, so you shouldn't have too much trouble hitting a pack of enemies.

    In regards to feats as they relate to using specific powers. I spoke about this a bit in the Barbarian thread, but I'll address it here and try to go even a bit more in-depth. First, we completely understand the difference between feats that enhances powers in Neverwinter vs. talents that enhance specific powers in WoW, we know that there's a psychological difference at play. I will admit I was personally a little surprised by how visceral the reaction was from some players about a feat column that targeted a specific type of scenario not having any use during a different scenario.

    An example of that would be: if there's a feat column wholly devoted to AoE, I was surprised how negative the feeling was that that feat column was not doing any work for someone in a single target situation. And some of you have been very frustrated about being in that situation. Of course, we are all prepared for negative feedback and reactions when we make even small changes, so we were definitely prepared for a negative reaction. But I'm happy to admit that particular element was a surprise for me.

    But to address the topic of why we made the choice to tie some feat columns to specific powers: the goal was to offer different playstyles, to allow powers to serve different purposes in different situations or for different builds. We hoped that these designs would offer more tangible differences in play style from build to build than a general across the board passive effect.

    If you look at some of the feats available before Module 16, many of their effects are rather simple and don't change your gameplay in significant ways. Now, certainly there are some older feats that do change the class in significant ways, for instance the old capstone feats. And there are some feats like that still in Module 16. And while we could offer 5 columns of general class mechanics that have a significant impact, if they're not tied to specific powers, that means they're changes that are occurring across the board on all or some large subset of your powers.

    With such a large number of passive or triggering effects like that, every action can quickly become an unintelligible slew of effects. With Module 16 we made a conscious effort to try to reduce those sort of effects, so that when you use an action a the outcome is predictable, readable, and more consistent. Both to benefit the gameplay of the class using the power, but also so that your allies, or enemies in PvP can understand what is happening.

    I apologize for such a longwinded explanation, but hopefully that at least answered your question about why we decided to design some of the new feats in that way. Now to answer the first part of that question: would we consider changing those feats? Absolutely. We will be watching carefully for continued feedback once the Module goes live, and an even wider audience of players has a chance to play with the new feats.

    That being said, I would like to make it clear that if we were to change those feat columns which are focused on specific powers to be more general powers, those replacement feats would be on the simpler side, as we'd still like to avoid overloading every play with a number of special triggered effects.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    wilbur626 said:

    asterdahl said:

    I apologize for how long Dig In has languished on preview, and hope you'll take the time to test out these changes once they're on preview.

    With the announced April 23rd release of Undermountain in mind, I have to ask if there is any reason at all to do testing on preview ? It is realistic to consider this (or maybe next weeks) preview build the final build, this means there will be no major changes to the Fighter. It would be nice if you would sum up what feedback actually had any value for you in regards to changes made to Fighter since the first preview/closed beta build.

    Your feedback has absolutely been read over the past few weeks, even if I haven't had time to respond. And also, your feedback will continue to be read after launch. Even as we eventually roll into future development, we will be making fixes and changes to Module 16 on live, and for future modules.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    gripnir78 said:

    wilbur626 said:

    > @pyc87 said:

    > What is a "QOL"?



    "Quality of life". In this case making things a little easier for the tank



    @gripnir78 Wouldn't adding the old threatening Rush mark to M16 enforced threat give almost the same effect?

    Of course, it would be even better then another number floating around, but it seems that they removed a Mark both as mechanic/debuff and as graphic... but sure,... yeah - wouldn't mind at all to get it back
    I understand the feedback that it is difficult to tell who has been hit by Enforced Threat. It's a fairly large area, but I will try to get a noticeable visual effect hooked up to targets that are hit by the effect. It won't be in at launch, but it will get done. It won't be the old mark icon, as I've described previously, Enforced Threat is not a continuing effect, but I will endeavor to make it easier to tell when you've hit an enemy.
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