dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
Taking away 40% damage from Vanguard is not any benefit to Dreadnaught at all.
Even if there was zero damage reduction, Dreadnaught would always out DPS Vanguard. Vanguard has to invest in defensive stats, use defensive stat pets and gear at the expense of offensive stats.
Vanguard has to slot threat building encounters including ET which does ZERO damage.
We should only be comparing Dreadnaught to other DPS classes, not Vanguard.
Argue that Dreadnaught needs more damage to compare with other DPS if you must. But gimping Vanguard will not help you at all.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
I am sure @thefabricant has already stated this in the Paladin thread, but I think, retroactively, reducing the penalty of the tank passive was a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors tank rather than DPS.
I would suggest retooling Path of the Vanguard (or the tank spec passives) to reduce the damage you deal by 50%, increase HP/Defense/and Deflect by 15%, but increase aggro generation by 400% (up from 200%). On the tank specs, you come out ahead in aggro (50% reduced damage * 4x aggro = 200%, or 2x the aggro of the comparable DPS) while keeping the tanks focused on defending.
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The player you mentioned ,aside from making severe nerf proposals for a class that dont plays,he soloed a dungeon in preview etos,playing a CW. I am sure you know it.Yet I did not saw you here ,asking for an adjustment down to the survivability of DPS compared to tanks. I think, retroactively, leaving aside the DPS advantage of striker classes,while introducing no trade offs in their defense was awas a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors DPS rather than tanks. Why to take a tank when a DPS cannot die?
I would suggest retooling Path of the Dreadnaught (or the DPS spec passives) to increase the damage taken by 50%, decrease HP/Deflect/Defense by 15%, but increase accuracy ,companion influence and awareness by 100% . On the DPS specs, you come out ahead in DPS ,while keeping the DPS focused on attacking ,not soloing dungeons,not asking nerfs for classes they don't play.
What would increased damage bring to a tank that in current state has no problems staying on top of threat list?
About tenebrous: Isn't 7% of (X+40%) more than 7% of X?
With 200k hp (roughly majority) you do 14k damage 3-5 times in 30 att will swings. With 280k hp you do roughly 20k.This is not a gamebreaking change. Tenebrous still is trash,at least atm I tested it in preview. With 30 swings you get 3-5 hits,depending on the equipped enchant.It is not work as intended ,with 4 rank13s i never had 24% chance.The procs were from 8-15% max of my hits. Still not decided what to do.At future tenes will be outclasses by radiants,as new gear comes into game and we fill our primary stats leaving spot for offensive ones..At launch they will be an option.
"What would increased damage bring to a tank that in current state has no problems staying on top of threat list?"
Defender spec has problems now to hold aggro even with current dps setups.As new builds and gear comes into play,the uprated DPS values will outclass the fixed threat values. You missed the part that threat is damage based. The doomsday leaflets were thrown into the forum by people that did not take into consideration that tanks have to invest in defense stat,losing over more at least 40 k stats to a DPS. Add to that a dps penalty of tanks,and a dps bonus of DPS and you have a recipe that a new or low mid-high Gf player will be outclassesd by DPS into holding threat.DPS that can be as tanky as him,cause they have no trade offs. Any damage penalty to a defnsive gear specced toon,will cripple its fun to play and will deter any player to play the class. It might be fun for you to swing and swing and swing 3 minutes in barovia to kill the vampires ,as now in preview.it is not for me ,and I think for the majority of MMO players.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I am sure @thefabricant has already stated this in the Paladin thread, but I think, retroactively, reducing the penalty of the tank passive was a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors tank rather than DPS.
I would suggest retooling Path of the Vanguard (or the tank spec passives) to reduce the damage you deal by 50%, increase HP/Defense/and Deflect by 15%, but increase aggro generation by 400% (up from 200%). On the tank specs, you come out ahead in aggro (50% reduced damage * 4x aggro = 200%, or 2x the aggro of the comparable DPS) while keeping the tanks focused on defending.
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The player you mentioned ,aside from making severe nerf proposals for a class that dont plays,he soloed a dungeon in preview etos,playing a CW. I am sure you know it.Yet I did not saw you here ,asking for an adjustment down to the survivability of DPS compared to tanks. I think, retroactively, leaving aside the DPS advantage of striker classes,while introducing no trade offs in their defense was awas a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors DPS rather than tanks. Why to take a tank when a DPS cannot die?
I would suggest retooling Path of the Dreadnaught (or the DPS spec passives) to increase the damage taken by 50%, decrease HP/Deflect/Defense by 15%, but increase accuracy ,companion influence and awareness by 100% . On the DPS specs, you come out ahead in DPS ,while keeping the DPS focused on attacking ,not soloing dungeons,not asking nerfs for classes they don't play.
You forgot the part where I asked for the defenses of dps classes to be reduced by roughly 50%, because I feel like dps should do dps and tanks should tank, but do go on.
The fact of the matter is, that even if stacking offensive stats meant that you could stack no defensive stats, that still means that a tank class that is built as a dps has the following:
90% of the dps of the dps spec built as a dps.
40% more hp then the dps spec built as a dps.
Which means for in any uncoordinated non optimized group, they are just a better dps. Yes, they do in theory 10% less damage than a dps, but they will die less often. Dying less often results in more dps in the average group, which means they will be the de facto meta dps for zerg chats and lfg.
And before anyone in their infinite wisdom here comes and says, "but the devs say they want 3 dps and 1 healer and 1 tank," let me remind you, they wanted the same in every mod since mod 0. How well have they done at achieving that? Not very well. Private queues exist, if a 90% dps with 40% more survivability is more reliable then a 100% dps, the 90% will be picked. It is quite possible to play a tank spec and wear dps gear, just because you want that 40% hp buff.
The player you mentioned ,aside from making severe nerf proposals for a class that dont plays,he soloed a dungeon in preview etos,playing a CW. I am sure you know it.Yet I did not saw you here ,asking for an adjustment down to the survivability of DPS compared to tanks.
I didn't outright give a suggestion like "Call it Path of the Juggernaught: deal (x)% more damage but lose (y)% of HP/Defense/Deflect etc."
I am more then willing to cut the survivability of dps by 50%, in fact, I think you should propose it. You will see in my initial suggestion I mentioned "modifications to survivability" as the 3rd point.
I would suggest retooling Path of the Dreadnaught (or the DPS spec passives) to increase the damage taken by 50%, decrease HP/Deflect/Defense by 15%, but increase accuracy ,companion influence and awareness by 100% . On the DPS specs, you come out ahead in DPS ,while keeping the DPS focused on attacking ,not soloing dungeons,not asking nerfs for classes they don't play.
This would actually be interesting for boat spec alongside the retooled tank passive, since you would be pretty squishy and would have the clear survivability difference between tank and DPS.
However, the only problem I see with the suggestion is that Awareness is increased rather than Power. I had no clue why you'd boost Awareness, a defensive stat, on an offensive build that is supposed to be more squishy.
Seeing as some of these threads are being bogged down by infighting and not worrying about more pressing matters (coughcoughuselessFighterpassivescoughcough), I'd suggest adding the following to all DPS specs:
hypervoreian said: Path of the [edit: Insert Thematic Name Here for Each DPS spec] to increase the damage taken by 50%, decrease HP/Deflect/Defense by 15%, but increase accuracy ,companion influence and [edit: Power] by 100% while also making adjustments to the tank's aggro bonus from the tank passive to account for needing to wrangle the aggro from the increased damage.
While this is for Fighters, I'd also give tank Paladins an extra passive that activates while solo/with companion. It negates the tank passive damage penalty is negated and the Paladin deals 50% more damage so they can have their pseudo DPS "spec' while soloing.
You forgot the part where I asked for the defenses of dps classes to be reduced by roughly 50%, because I feel like dps should do dps and tanks should tank, but do go on.
The fact of the matter is, that even if stacking offensive stats meant that you could stack no defensive stats, that still means that a tank class that is built as a dps has the following:
90% of the dps of the dps spec built as a dps.
40% more hp then the dps spec built as a dps.
Which means for in any uncoordinated non optimized group, they are just a better dps. Yes, they do in theory 10% less damage than a dps, but they will die less often. Dying less often results in more dps in the average group, which means they will be the de facto meta dps for zerg chats and lfg.
And before anyone in their infinite wisdom here comes and says, "but the devs say they want 3 dps and 1 healer and 1 tank," let me remind you, they wanted the same in every mod since mod 0. How well have they done at achieving that? Not very well. Private queues exist, if a 90% dps with 40% more survivability is more reliable then a 100% dps, the 90% will be picked.
A DPS tank will not do the 90% of a pure DPS class but 80%. -10% of him ,while DPS get _10%. Add to that the gimped companion slots and the difference is even higher.Add the slow attacks,the non recharging synergy of pure DPS class (CW) and you have a slow ,80% effective DPS.
More hp to a DPS/tank hybrid with out built in defenses,as the theoretical paradigm you projected,are in prectice worthless.DPS tanks will die anyway,while having a severe -20% damage produce. Make a Gf ,go to IWD in preview and try to block the big attacks of the REGULAR ADDS.Try to not block the yeti big attack. Or better go to undermountain first area and try not to block the giants "smash" attack.that hits for 280k. DPS tanks,with out defenses ,with threat modifiers in them,will be a total and absolute catastrophe for any party that will take them. Aggro wars,scattered mobs,deaths,and reduced DPS.
Who in his right mind will make a class to play dps while doing by default 20% less damage ?
You have a past in exaggerating situations,while failing to notice trends. examples ,the "thousands of GFs that will run dps very soon" in mod8-9 forum wars. it was not thousands actually they were....3 players? 7? maybe 10.All others ragequitted cause they did not damage. And at the same time, while on DC Do rework " I dont think that parties with 2 DCs will become the meta,Do offers just a slight boost" So I ll take your predictions with a grain of salt.
And your proposed trade off,it was kinda obsolete from the beggining.It would never materialized.Cause DPS players are 95% of player base and would ragequit if they died.Which the vast majority would.So the change would be reverted,while the 5% of the base ,would have to live and do dailies with your proposal.
edit: Are you serious. In an advertized action based MMO,on a class that ensures its success role in generating threat wit damge,you want to get a 50% damage nerf?Who would play that class?You would play it? You would gear it and do dailies for hours and hours and hours?What are you proposing? The trade off you mentioned is purely theoretical,cause in MMOs there is a term ,TTK. Time to kill ratio.If a offensive toon is doing enough damage the AI NPCs do not have time to harm him.it does not matter if it get + 50% more damage taken or 200%.It is irrelevant.especially with a gazilion mitigation tools in his proposal.Like BarkShield,dodge/teleport ,stealth. While -50% damage produce it is real handicap that would increase dramatically the TtK ,and would lead to the need of more built in defenses to endure the increased attacks.Cause mobs will not die and they would use the big attacks.
All this as i wrote to the other poster,is purely theoretical,even with 50% damage taken ,DPS in reality would not feel any difference cause of TtK ratio. While the -50% damage done is there in every swing every encounter every daily. Ther changes you propose are ill thought and not well refined.
A class that does -50% damage would not be playable.Not by any sane person that wants to relax in a MMO and escape reality. Let me ask you ,would you play a class like that. From 1 to 80 level?And then do the campaigns and all stuff? I have an offensive specced tank in live and a well geared toon for the first zones in preview.even with 30% penalty the process of leveling is excruciating.And I have the best enchants,the best companions,the best mounts. And you think a new player will tolerate to swing and swing and swing and swing and swing and swing and swing and swing and then swing again and swing and then swing swing ,swing again,for clearing one mob? Are you serious. ofcourse not,cause your proposal would not affect you.you play a DPS and as I explained the handicap/trade off you propose it would have nil impact in your dailies routine or dungeon runs.
And since you make predictions ,I ll make one myself,to see who will be correct; Even as in is now,tanks are boring and slow to play.With 30% penalty not with 50% .With 50% penalty new players will never level them to 80,and old players will abandon the class in the curve somewhere between 70 and 80. After 1-3 months fromMod16 launch,tanks will be nowhere to be found in the game ,and the devs either will revert the damage penalties,or bolster the DPS defenses,cause the dungeon runs would not be run by ordinary players. We will see who is right.
If the continued adaptation of more 5e DnD things into the class is a good idea, then these were ideas and suggestions I came up with that attempt to incorporate more 5e material.
They denote the original 5e source (if not a NW invention), while fixing some of the uninteresting/bland powers/class features and promoting unique playstyles from feats.
I am not sure what is or isn't broken, but remember these are merely suggestions: I'm not the programmer/developer at end of the day.
What would increased damage bring to a tank that in current state has no problems staying on top of threat list?
About tenebrous: Isn't 7% of (X+40%) more than 7% of X?
With 200k hp (roughly majority) you do 14k damage 3-5 times in 30 att will swings. With 280k hp you do roughly 20k.This is not a gamebreaking change. Tenebrous still is trash,at least atm I tested it in preview. With 30 swings you get 3-5 hits,depending on the equipped enchant.It is not work as intended ,with 4 rank13s i never had 24% chance.The procs were from 8-15% max of my hits. Still not decided what to do.At future tenes will be outclasses by radiants,as new gear comes into game and we fill our primary stats leaving spot for offensive ones..At launch they will be an option.
"What would increased damage bring to a tank that in current state has no problems staying on top of threat list?"
Defender spec has problems now to hold aggro even with current dps setups.As new builds and gear comes into play,the uprated DPS values will outclass the fixed threat values. You missed the part that threat is damage based. The doomsday leaflets were thrown into the forum by people that did not take into consideration that tanks have to invest in defense stat,losing over more at least 40 k stats to a DPS. Add to that a dps penalty of tanks,and a dps bonus of DPS and you have a recipe that a new or low mid-high Gf player will be outclassesd by DPS into holding threat.DPS that can be as tanky as him,cause they have no trade offs. Any damage penalty to a defnsive gear specced toon,will cripple its fun to play and will deter any player to play the class. It might be fun for you to swing and swing and swing 3 minutes in barovia to kill the vampires ,as now in preview.it is not for me ,and I think for the majority of MMO players.
And since you make predictions ,I ll make one myself,to see who will be correct; Even as in is now,tanks are boring and slow to play.With 30% penalty not with 50% .With 50% penalty new players will never level them to 80,and old players will abandon the class in the curve somewhere between 70 and 80. After 1-3 months fromMod16 launch,tanks will be nowhere to be found in the game ,and the devs either will revert the damage penalties,or bolster the DPS defenses,cause the dungeon runs would not be run by ordinary players. We will see who is right.
If the devs made sure to include info about the concept of Loadouts in Fighter character creation, this would never be an issue. Players would ofcourse run their Dreadnaught loadout for solo/campaign groups. The Vanguard path is a tank specc for group dungeon play.
If the continued adaptation of more 5e DnD things into the class is a good idea, then these were ideas and suggestions I came up with that attempt to incorporate more 5e material.
They denote the original 5e source (if not a NW invention), while fixing some of the uninteresting/bland powers/class features and promoting unique playstyles from feats.
I am not sure what is or isn't broken, but remember these are merely suggestions: I'm not the programmer/developer at end of the day.
Both Into the Fray and Commander's Strike as universal powers = awesomeness! (@asterdahl, plz implement asap ) I had problems finding a way to swap powers from dreadnaught to vanguard without making the leveling process from 1-70 extremely boring, but your suggestion has found the key. "Pushing attack", Tremor, Anvil of Doom and Commander's Strike serves well as leveling encounters.
The suggested change to Tide of Iron separates it from the go-to skill for AOE combat Threatening Rush and would make a great addition to singletarget fights.
Extra Attack and Parry (if possible to implement) would make the tank class specc extremely fun to play. Executing a parry and getting rewarded for doing so would add an actual need for skill/timing instead of encounter mashing between blocks.
The suggested "Strenght Before Death" feat would that be for ALL incoming damage when below 35% hp ?
If the continued adaptation of more 5e DnD things into the class is a good idea, then these were ideas and suggestions I came up with that attempt to incorporate more 5e material.
I have to say I much prefer the suggestion of increasing the effectiveness of the shield (150% stamina) than increasing HP, 40% more HP for tanks just seems like a problem waiting to happen.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I am sure @thefabricant has already stated this in the Paladin thread, but I think, retroactively, reducing the penalty of the tank passive was a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors tank rather than DPS.
If dps are still ahead with 20+% feel free to elaborate how so ....
Because the 10% penalty is not a big enough difference between tank and DPS, it literally turns tanks into " a slightly worse DPS with 40% more HP".
No matter which spec you run, you are using the same base damage values for the class. The damage of Shield Slam is always 250 magnitude, Anvil is 1000, Cleave 15, so on and so forth for all the shared powers. Another key thing to note is that under the new aggro system, everyone is encouraged to DPS: DPS because it's their job, tanks for holding aggro, and healers to pass the time while babysitting.
So if everyone is encouraged to play DPS and can play DPS because of stat homogenization, what's the difference between a tank and DPS?
The only difference in ability damage between the specs was the penalty to damage. 30% was a material difference, but 10% is not. An example of 10% being immaterial is Vengeance in its current state: right now, you could play the Boat spec without touching Vengeance because 10% was not a big enough difference to be worth the hassle of using the potty squat mechanic or trying to stand toe to toe.
You could also argue, "the DPS tree makes a difference", but right now, it doesn't. Most of the feats are too specific or require so much Vengeance that losing the occasional 300 magnitude damage on (x) ability isn't worth the hassle of playing violation of common sense or using the potty squat.
Even with the new penalty, you could argue the 22% damage difference (10% penalty*10% Vengeance) is a material difference that you *would* play a DPS spec over a tank spec. I would argue, no, it isn't: if I get to nearly double my HP (close to +120,000 for most players) and my only loss is "lose 50,000-100,000 damage on encounters you use every 12-15 seconds", what is discouraging me from running tank over a spec besides the random queue system?
I don't mind increasing aggro multipliers by a drastic amount so tanks have aggro without needing to DPS (I don't think a 40% gain in aggro will help too much, but I'll roll with it and see). I also don't mind giving tank players a passive where they deal 50% more damage while alone so the bad players can solo just fine on tank spec. I also don't mind giving DPS players a larger boost to damage in exchange to larger penalty for defenses.
But right now, the border between DPS and tank is so thin that I suspect a 4 tank 1 healer setup will rise for most player.
Well, you are wrong, How wrong? It depends on given fighter IL.
Now, if we choose a tank path we are obliged to do our job as tanks. It cant be done without locating a huge portion of our avilable ratings into defensive stats first. Any leftovers are located in offensive stats. That "forced stat location" is more then eanugh to put Vanguard in disadvantage to Dreadnought dps. Lets not forget that it also includes gear, enchantments, comapnions, mounts and choosen path abilities etc., so such choice has also substantial AD value attached to it.
Now if you look at the problem form high end IL player perspective you may have some point (according to stat allocation with full stat caps reached possibility) but even then Dreadnought would not need to put any rating points into his defensive stats, and that alone will give him a lot more advantage in dps. Furthermore lets not forget that with every ratings increase with any new content, tanks would have to locate more stats into defensive stats, while dps will not.
Lets not forget that not evey player is BIS out there, most of them are not, or as you said they are "bad players" - for them having effectively less points to distibute it would be even harder to mantain tank needs not to mention dps boosting.
Try to create a new toon with just a primal gear and enchants 8-9 on top and then go for a new content, without your shiny toys of BIS player. Sure you cant forget your experience but before you do more whining here - try that. Wanna bet its gona be completly different experience for such toon then yours? And before you gona say something like - end game content is not for every one - sure its not - but leveling to level 80 is meant for every player.
So in my opinion this new solution it going to improve solo playing experience fot all tanks while it wont in fact impact team play too much. Sure it may open some options for I dont know 0,5% of player base - a super high end toons, but even then those most likely will go in parties with similar toons and their tanks dps will remain irrelevant for obvious reasons.
But lets be honest here and give it a try before we judge this. What I would actually add to this picture is new dps class mechanic - like 10% more dps while 10% less defensive abilities performance. Adding tankiness is fine but adding some dpsness with it, would make this change more resonable.
And since you make predictions ,I ll make one myself,to see who will be correct; Even as in is now,tanks are boring and slow to play.With 30% penalty not with 50% .With 50% penalty new players will never level them to 80,and old players will abandon the class in the curve somewhere between 70 and 80. After 1-3 months fromMod16 launch,tanks will be nowhere to be found in the game ,and the devs either will revert the damage penalties,or bolster the DPS defenses,cause the dungeon runs would not be run by ordinary players. We will see who is right.
If the devs made sure to include info about the concept of Loadouts in Fighter character creation, this would never be an issue. Players would ofcourse run their Dreadnaught loadout for solo/campaign groups. The Vanguard path is a tank specc for group dungeon play.
Almost Lets not forget that tanking gear and stuff:D is not helping in dpsing so sure loadouts will help to grind trough solo content, but than again it wont be nowehre near to pure dps classes. Not sure about paladins but fighter are in a unique situations where to perform in both paths they need much more AD for that. Its not MOD 15 any more ladies, any try to make a hybrid would in fact means that you suck on both paths. There would be no AA or power share to cover your shortcomings. (at least for now )
> @gripnir78 said: > And since you make predictions ,I ll make one myself,to see who will be correct; > Even as in is now,tanks are boring and slow to play.With 30% penalty not with 50% .With 50% penalty new players will never level them to 80,and old players will abandon the class in the curve somewhere between 70 and 80. > After 1-3 months fromMod16 launch,tanks will be nowhere to be found in the game ,and the devs either will revert the damage penalties,or bolster the DPS defenses,cause the dungeon runs would not be run by ordinary players. > We will see who is right. > > > > If the devs made sure to include info about the concept of Loadouts in Fighter character creation, this would never be an issue. Players would ofcourse run their Dreadnaught loadout for solo/campaign groups. The Vanguard path is a tank specc for group dungeon play. > > Almost Lets not forget that tanking gear and stuff:D is not helping in dpsing so sure loadouts will help to grind trough solo content, but than again it wont be nowehre near to pure dps classes. > Not sure about paladins but fighter are in a unique situations where to perform in both paths they need much more AD for that. Its not MOD 15 any more ladies, any try to make a hybrid would in fact means that you suck on both paths. There would be no AA or power share to cover your shortcomings. (at least for now )
Ofc it's nowhere near a pure DPS build, it's a solo content loadout for a player that has chosen to fill the tank role in groups. You don't have to be anywhere near best in slot for the solo loadout to be far more effective than the tank loadout.
If the continued adaptation of more 5e DnD things into the class is a good idea, then these were ideas and suggestions I came up with that attempt to incorporate more 5e material.
I have to say I much prefer the suggestion of increasing the effectiveness of the shield (150% stamina) than increasing HP, 40% more HP for tanks just seems like a problem waiting to happen.
yea, i'm also bit uneasy about new block modification (140% HP and -50% blok) as it look nice damage wise we cant forget this change pretty much cuts our CC rezistance time as blok last shorter. Haven't tested it yet so i won't comment whether it;s good or bad, just wanted to point my concern about this change.
Willbur the charts you posted actually support my thesis.When your damage output was relative low,tenes possesed a large part of it cause they are a fixed figure; when you did more damage the tenes went down to 12%. If you had radiants insted of tenes I am pretty sure you would have by the sum of radiants power roughly or better damage ouput for 12%. In the first chart you did 230 hits with 30 tenes procs.That is way lower than 6% .Enchant is underperforming
As for the loadouts thing: Am I a pleb that need to make a double set of gear to do my dailies,while DPS roll on ? thank you very much,I ll pass.
The whole thread has nothing to do with balance or whatever,the guy that started this doomsday preaching and throwed leaflets there,was the same guy that was against Lostmauth set adjustment,cause his class,CW,was benefitting more. Dont take his words in face value ,he justs wants to reassure himself that he will top the DPS charts.That is his only motive. He uses the whole balance thing to masquerade his agenda.Nothing more nothing less. As for the other guiy supporting him,they just play together for years .Nothing to see there.
> And since you make predictions ,I ll make one myself,to see who will be correct;
> Even as in is now,tanks are boring and slow to play.With 30% penalty not with 50% .With 50% penalty new players will never level them to 80,and old players will abandon the class in the curve somewhere between 70 and 80.
> After 1-3 months fromMod16 launch,tanks will be nowhere to be found in the game ,and the devs either will revert the damage penalties,or bolster the DPS defenses,cause the dungeon runs would not be run by ordinary players.
> We will see who is right.
>
>
>
> If the devs made sure to include info about the concept of Loadouts in Fighter character creation, this would never be an issue. Players would ofcourse run their Dreadnaught loadout for solo/campaign groups. The Vanguard path is a tank specc for group dungeon play.
>
> Almost Lets not forget that tanking gear and stuff:D is not helping in dpsing so sure loadouts will help to grind trough solo content, but than again it wont be nowehre near to pure dps classes.
> Not sure about paladins but fighter are in a unique situations where to perform in both paths they need much more AD for that. Its not MOD 15 any more ladies, any try to make a hybrid would in fact means that you suck on both paths. There would be no AA or power share to cover your shortcomings. (at least for now )
Ofc it's nowhere near a pure DPS build, it's a solo content loadout for a player that has chosen to fill the tank role in groups. You don't have to be anywhere near best in slot for the solo loadout to be far more effective than the tank loadout.
Of course you are correct here, but according to some its gona be just 10% difference .... well, we will see soon
I am sure @thefabricant has already stated this in the Paladin thread, but I think, retroactively, reducing the penalty of the tank passive was a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors tank rather than DPS.
If dps are still ahead with 20+% feel free to elaborate how so ....
Because the 10% penalty is not a big enough difference between tank and DPS, it literally turns tanks into " a slightly worse DPS with 40% more HP".
No matter which spec you run, you are using the same base damage values for the class. The damage of Shield Slam is always 250 magnitude, Anvil is 1000, Cleave 15, so on and so forth for all the shared powers. Another key thing to note is that under the new aggro system, everyone is encouraged to DPS: DPS because it's their job, tanks for holding aggro, and healers to pass the time while babysitting.
So if everyone is encouraged to play DPS and can play DPS because of stat homogenization, what's the difference between a tank and DPS?
The only difference in ability damage between the specs was the penalty to damage. 30% was a material difference, but 10% is not. An example of 10% being immaterial is Vengeance in its current state: right now, you could play the Boat spec without touching Vengeance because 10% was not a big enough difference to be worth the hassle of using the potty squat mechanic or trying to stand toe to toe.
You could also argue, "the DPS tree makes a difference", but right now, it doesn't. Most of the feats are too specific or require so much Vengeance that losing the occasional 300 magnitude damage on (x) ability isn't worth the hassle of playing violation of common sense or using the potty squat.
Even with the new penalty, you could argue the 22% damage difference (10% penalty*10% Vengeance) is a material difference that you *would* play a DPS spec over a tank spec. I would argue, no, it isn't: if I get to nearly double my HP (close to +120,000 for most players) and my only loss is "lose 50,000-100,000 damage on encounters you use every 12-15 seconds", what is discouraging me from running tank over a spec besides the random queue system?
I don't mind increasing aggro multipliers by a drastic amount so tanks have aggro without needing to DPS (I don't think a 40% gain in aggro will help too much, but I'll roll with it and see). I also don't mind giving tank players a passive where they deal 50% more damage while alone so the bad players can solo just fine on tank spec. I also don't mind giving DPS players a larger boost to damage in exchange to larger penalty for defenses.
But right now, the border between DPS and tank is so thin that I suspect a 4 tank 1 healer setup will rise for most player.
Thank you for taking the time to elaborate,
First not there is not going to be 4/1/1 becouse in pugs it is not allowed and in private they pick the FASTEST not the easest solution if possible.
Now add range, aoe, control together with companio n offensive gear the gap is way more then just making more dps when it comes to dps vs tank classes.
Now add 20% more damage from 3 members 3 dps 1 tank 1 healer vs 4 tanks add the above and the only reason the set up is not going to be 3/1/1 is that the content is to hard and they need to bring another tank or another healer and that is not because the tank is good dps.
Before this answer others also pointed out more gear for tank/dps path (as Op do not have one tank OP is the worst when it comes to having low dps) easer lvling/questing/farming for dps oriented classes.
Encounter which is the major part of dps, as at wills are reduced to annoying face slapping at best, and if you look at for example cw having for some with control utility and other with higher base damage, Hr (if fixed this one is the jury still out on) will have 6 etc there is built in that tanks do less damage weather they want or not.
Now if you played this game since mod 1 you should remember how the game looked before buff stacking became a thing, A good example is both Pirate that was pure farm and Spellplague that on that time was the hardes dungeon. The groups was by no means 2 or 3 tanks it was 3 or 3 cw/dps. and There is only one way are going to be more then 1 tank in groups (yea well except for when friends that likes to play that way form privite) and that is if they do what some suggested nerf the dps classed defences so hard that they can not surive the hard dungeons.
Now all that being said having a 30 % less dps debuff on pure tank path when they got access to dps path is imo not a bad idea if they compensate with higher survivability and aggro control that however is not the case for Justicar (OP) as it has no dps path to fall back to.
In the end dps should not worrie to much about the tanks damage and more of their ability to survive and hold aggro because as it is now if the tank fail at either you do going to need more tanks and healers NOT because of the tanks dps but because 1 tank is not enough to stay alive.
Best
4
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
The idea of LFG demanding all-tank parties because our damage is "90% of a DPS and more survivable" is laughable.
It will not be 90% as others have explained (defense slots, more defensive gear...).
And our survivability is compromised by greater threat generation which others have explained.
But may I add... who will hold aggro? Everyone in the party would have high threat generation. It would yield chaotic poorly coordinated runs. An all tank party would die MORE when Orcus, Strahd, Ras Nisi and every other 1-hit boss spins like a top.
Nonsense.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
> @marnival said: . > > Now all that being said having a 30 % less dps debuff on pure tank path when they got access to dps path is imo not a bad idea if they compensate with higher survivability and aggro control that however is not the case for Justicar (OP) as it has no dps path to fall back to. >
This sounds like a very good reason to handle paladin/Fighter issues separately instead of slapping +X% DPS and HP on all tanks
If the continued adaptation of more 5e DnD things into the class is a good idea, then these were ideas and suggestions I came up with that attempt to incorporate more 5e material.
They denote the original 5e source (if not a NW invention), while fixing some of the uninteresting/bland powers/class features and promoting unique playstyles from feats.
I am not sure what is or isn't broken, but remember these are merely suggestions: I'm not the programmer/developer at end of the day.
Path of the Vanguard: -90% damage? Is that a typo? You would need a threat multiplier in the thousands to do your job with that, and it would make the entire path utterly unplayable for solo.
Even after threat boost patch, pets are stealing aggro from Vanguard.
Lions stealing aggro from endgame geared Vanguard in CN at Beholder Boss.
No pet, no matter how Legendary should ever be greater threat builder then a Vanguard. Overall, my ~6 T2 runs 3:1:1 w Vanguard were pretty good. Held aggro better (except for the frakking Lions).
This is a problem with lions currently on live as well. The lions have a hard taunt which causes trouble for tanks in general (that's why so many groups will ask you to put away your lion when you use it in groups). Of course, on live a GF can just use a hard taunt to take agro back. In Mod 16, there really isn't a good way for a tank to counter a pet with a hard taunt.
Hopefully tanking pets like this are going to get a look at as well?
To all of those claiming that reducing the damage penalty would lead to people trying to play as DPS in tank spec for the extra HP, I'd like to offer a reality check.
Anyone trying to do that would have their real damage drastically reduced by virtue of aggro wars forcing them to play defensively- Fighters can turtledart, but that's nowhere near as effective as just unloading the Dreadnaught's ability combos into a distracted enemy's backside, and that extra 40%hp goes pretty quickly when everything you hit turns around and hits you back, all without the Dreadnaught's ability to wring a damage bonus from blocking.
The suggested "Strenght Before Death" feat would that be for ALL incoming damage when below 35% hp ?
Yes, idk if it would be stupidly broken, might need adjustment.
Enduring Warrior right now is completely useless due to the laughably small effect and bad % HP activation. Hopefully a massive upgrade could make it not as bad as a survival based passive.
If the continued adaptation of more 5e DnD things into the class is a good idea, then these were ideas and suggestions I came up with that attempt to incorporate more 5e material.
I have to say I much prefer the suggestion of increasing the effectiveness of the shield (150% stamina) than increasing HP, 40% more HP for tanks just seems like a problem waiting to happen.
I much prefered the old system of Stamina, which ticks down as you hold it.
I can see why the shields were uniformly changed, so every tank class has similar survivability, which means you don't need to balance for Templar's Wrath giving 5 mil TempHP vs. GF just reducing 80% of incoming damage.
However, I can't say that stripping the uniqueness of each shield away was a good idea.
If the continued adaptation of more 5e DnD things into the class is a good idea, then these were ideas and suggestions I came up with that attempt to incorporate more 5e material.
They denote the original 5e source (if not a NW invention), while fixing some of the uninteresting/bland powers/class features and promoting unique playstyles from feats.
I am not sure what is or isn't broken, but remember these are merely suggestions: I'm not the programmer/developer at end of the day.
Path of the Vanguard: -90% damage? Is that a typo? You would need a threat multiplier in the thousands to do your job with that, and it would make the entire path utterly unplayable for solo.
Yes, that is a typo.
Should have been "90% of normal damage", or "-10% damage".
Feedback: Ran the Tales of Old dungeon Frozen Heart with Vanguard and had a hard time getting and keeping threat on so many targets. I don't have the tools to keep threat on 10+ targets at a time, not sure what the target cap is on Enforced Threat but that was my only hope to try and grab stragglers that my melee attacks couldn't hit. It was compounded by all the red AoE attacks that stun, meaning I have to spend more time shielding, and the hitboxes on the bosses and some of the lesser enemies were so large I could not maneuver as well to grab enemies that were attacking other party members.
After that we ran Temple of Spider Master, had some of the same frustrations with bosses and some enemy hitboxes feeling overly large. I was using threatening rush, cleaving bull feat and cleave, and Enforced Threat all so I could try and grab threat on the enemies scattered all over the place. My buddy on his Barbie in dps mode easily did more than double my damage and was pulling aggro from me occasionally . We both were using the new tradebar store weapon set so difference in weapon damage was not a factor.
I think with Tremor gone, we could use a 100-150 magnitude adition to ET !
Why not both?
Bug: Vengeful Blade and Barbarian's Revelry:
When attacking with At-wills, if you score a Crit and have Vengeful Blade, Barbarian's Revelry refuses to proc. If you have 10 or less Vengeance, Barbarian's Revelry will proc as usual.
Comments
Even if there was zero damage reduction, Dreadnaught would always out DPS Vanguard. Vanguard has to invest in defensive stats, use defensive stat pets and gear at the expense of offensive stats.
Vanguard has to slot threat building encounters including ET which does ZERO damage.
We should only be comparing Dreadnaught to other DPS classes, not Vanguard.
Argue that Dreadnaught needs more damage to compare with other DPS if you must. But gimping Vanguard will not help you at all.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
I am sure you know it.Yet I did not saw you here ,asking for an adjustment down to the survivability of DPS compared to tanks.
I think, retroactively, leaving aside the DPS advantage of striker classes,while introducing no trade offs in their defense was awas a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors DPS rather than tanks.
Why to take a tank when a DPS cannot die?
I would suggest retooling Path of the Dreadnaught (or the DPS spec passives) to increase the damage taken by 50%, decrease HP/Deflect/Defense by 15%, but increase accuracy ,companion influence and awareness by 100% .
On the DPS specs, you come out ahead in DPS ,while keeping the DPS focused on attacking ,not soloing dungeons,not asking nerfs for classes they don't play.
With 280k hp you do roughly 20k.This is not a gamebreaking change.
Tenebrous still is trash,at least atm I tested it in preview.
With 30 swings you get 3-5 hits,depending on the equipped enchant.It is not work as intended ,with 4 rank13s i never had 24% chance.The procs were from 8-15% max of my hits.
Still not decided what to do.At future tenes will be outclasses by radiants,as new gear comes into game and we fill our primary stats leaving spot for offensive ones..At launch they will be an option.
"What would increased damage bring to a tank that in current state has no problems staying on top of threat list?"
Defender spec has problems now to hold aggro even with current dps setups.As new builds and gear comes into play,the uprated DPS values will outclass the fixed threat values.
You missed the part that threat is damage based.
The doomsday leaflets were thrown into the forum by people that did not take into consideration that tanks have to invest in defense stat,losing over more at least 40 k stats to a DPS.
Add to that a dps penalty of tanks,and a dps bonus of DPS and you have a recipe that a new or low mid-high Gf player will be outclassesd by DPS into holding threat.DPS that can be as tanky as him,cause they have no trade offs.
Any damage penalty to a defnsive gear specced toon,will cripple its fun to play and will deter any player to play the class.
It might be fun for you to swing and swing and swing 3 minutes in barovia to kill the vampires ,as now in preview.it is not for me ,and I think for the majority of MMO players.
The fact of the matter is, that even if stacking offensive stats meant that you could stack no defensive stats, that still means that a tank class that is built as a dps has the following:
- 90% of the dps of the dps spec built as a dps.
- 40% more hp then the dps spec built as a dps.
Which means for in any uncoordinated non optimized group, they are just a better dps. Yes, they do in theory 10% less damage than a dps, but they will die less often. Dying less often results in more dps in the average group, which means they will be the de facto meta dps for zerg chats and lfg.And before anyone in their infinite wisdom here comes and says, "but the devs say they want 3 dps and 1 healer and 1 tank," let me remind you, they wanted the same in every mod since mod 0. How well have they done at achieving that? Not very well. Private queues exist, if a 90% dps with 40% more survivability is more reliable then a 100% dps, the 90% will be picked. It is quite possible to play a tank spec and wear dps gear, just because you want that 40% hp buff.
However, I did write: Also, for all your (and Paladin) beef with Edgelord, he also even suggested on the Paladin feedback thread, way before I thought about it. This would actually be interesting for boat spec alongside the retooled tank passive, since you would be pretty squishy and would have the clear survivability difference between tank and DPS.
However, the only problem I see with the suggestion is that Awareness is increased rather than Power.
I had no clue why you'd boost Awareness, a defensive stat, on an offensive build that is supposed to be more squishy.
Seeing as some of these threads are being bogged down by infighting and not worrying about more pressing matters (coughcoughuselessFighterpassivescoughcough), I'd suggest adding the following to all DPS specs:
hypervoreian said:
Path of the [edit: Insert Thematic Name Here for Each DPS spec] to increase the damage taken by 50%, decrease HP/Deflect/Defense by 15%, but increase accuracy ,companion influence and [edit: Power] by 100%
while also making adjustments to the tank's aggro bonus from the tank passive to account for needing to wrangle the aggro from the increased damage.
While this is for Fighters, I'd also give tank Paladins an extra passive that activates while solo/with companion. It negates the tank passive damage penalty is negated and the Paladin deals 50% more damage so they can have their pseudo DPS "spec' while soloing.
Add to that the gimped companion slots and the difference is even higher.Add the slow attacks,the non recharging synergy of pure DPS class (CW) and you have a slow ,80% effective DPS.
More hp to a DPS/tank hybrid with out built in defenses,as the theoretical paradigm you projected,are in prectice worthless.DPS tanks will die anyway,while having a severe -20% damage produce.
Make a Gf ,go to IWD in preview and try to block the big attacks of the REGULAR ADDS.Try to not block the yeti big attack.
Or better go to undermountain first area and try not to block the giants "smash" attack.that hits for 280k.
DPS tanks,with out defenses ,with threat modifiers in them,will be a total and absolute catastrophe for any party that will take them.
Aggro wars,scattered mobs,deaths,and reduced DPS.
Who in his right mind will make a class to play dps while doing by default 20% less damage ?
You have a past in exaggerating situations,while failing to notice trends.
examples ,the "thousands of GFs that will run dps very soon" in mod8-9 forum wars.
it was not thousands actually they were....3 players? 7? maybe 10.All others ragequitted cause they did not damage.
And at the same time, while on DC Do rework " I dont think that parties with 2 DCs will become the meta,Do offers just a slight boost"
So I ll take your predictions with a grain of salt.
And your proposed trade off,it was kinda obsolete from the beggining.It would never materialized.Cause DPS players are 95% of player base and would ragequit if they died.Which the vast majority would.So the change would be reverted,while the 5% of the base ,would have to live and do dailies with your proposal.
edit:
Are you serious.
In an advertized action based MMO,on a class that ensures its success role in generating threat wit damge,you want to get a 50% damage nerf?Who would play that class?You would play it?
You would gear it and do dailies for hours and hours and hours?What are you proposing?
The trade off you mentioned is purely theoretical,cause in MMOs there is a term ,TTK.
Time to kill ratio.If a offensive toon is doing enough damage the AI NPCs do not have time to harm him.it does not matter if it get + 50% more damage taken or 200%.It is irrelevant.especially with a gazilion mitigation tools in his proposal.Like BarkShield,dodge/teleport ,stealth.
While -50% damage produce it is real handicap that would increase dramatically the TtK ,and would lead to the need of more built in defenses to endure the increased attacks.Cause mobs will not die and they would use the big attacks.
While the -50% damage done is there in every swing every encounter every daily.
Ther changes you propose are ill thought and not well refined.
A class that does -50% damage would not be playable.Not by any sane person that wants to relax in a MMO and escape reality.
Let me ask you ,would you play a class like that.
From 1 to 80 level?And then do the campaigns and all stuff?
I have an offensive specced tank in live and a well geared toon for the first zones in preview.even with 30% penalty the process of leveling is excruciating.And I have the best enchants,the best companions,the best mounts.
And you think a new player will tolerate to swing and swing and swing and swing and swing and swing and swing and swing and then swing again and swing and then swing swing ,swing again,for clearing one mob?
Are you serious.
ofcourse not,cause your proposal would not affect you.you play a DPS and as I explained the handicap/trade off you propose it would have nil impact in your dailies routine or dungeon runs.
And since you make predictions ,I ll make one myself,to see who will be correct;
Even as in is now,tanks are boring and slow to play.With 30% penalty not with 50% .With 50% penalty new players will never level them to 80,and old players will abandon the class in the curve somewhere between 70 and 80.
After 1-3 months fromMod16 launch,tanks will be nowhere to be found in the game ,and the devs either will revert the damage penalties,or bolster the DPS defenses,cause the dungeon runs would not be run by ordinary players.
We will see who is right.
If the continued adaptation of more 5e DnD things into the class is a good idea, then these were ideas and suggestions I came up with that attempt to incorporate more 5e material.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AWvCTaN6mL2pRqErzZRV0nn3caWYkSTXzB_GR7r7gyw/edit?usp=sharing
They denote the original 5e source (if not a NW invention), while fixing some of the uninteresting/bland powers/class features and promoting unique playstyles from feats.
I am not sure what is or isn't broken, but remember these are merely suggestions: I'm not the programmer/developer at end of the day.
I had problems finding a way to swap powers from dreadnaught to vanguard without making the leveling process from 1-70 extremely boring, but your suggestion has found the key. "Pushing attack", Tremor, Anvil of Doom and Commander's Strike serves well as leveling encounters.
The suggested change to Tide of Iron separates it from the go-to skill for AOE combat Threatening Rush and would make a great addition to singletarget fights.
Extra Attack and Parry (if possible to implement) would make the tank class specc extremely fun to play. Executing a parry and getting rewarded for doing so would add an actual need for skill/timing instead of encounter mashing between blocks.
The suggested "Strenght Before Death" feat would that be for ALL incoming damage when below 35% hp ?
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Now, if we choose a tank path we are obliged to do our job as tanks. It cant be done without locating a huge portion of our avilable ratings into defensive stats first. Any leftovers are located in offensive stats. That "forced stat location" is more then eanugh to put Vanguard in disadvantage to Dreadnought dps. Lets not forget that it also includes gear, enchantments, comapnions, mounts and choosen path abilities etc., so such choice has also substantial AD value attached to it.
Now if you look at the problem form high end IL player perspective you may have some point (according to stat allocation with full stat caps reached possibility) but even then Dreadnought would not need to put any rating points into his defensive stats, and that alone will give him a lot more advantage in dps.
Furthermore lets not forget that with every ratings increase with any new content, tanks would have to locate more stats into defensive stats, while dps will not.
Lets not forget that not evey player is BIS out there, most of them are not, or as you said they are "bad players" - for them having effectively less points to distibute it would be even harder to mantain tank needs not to mention dps boosting.
Try to create a new toon with just a primal gear and enchants 8-9 on top and then go for a new content, without your shiny toys of BIS player.
Sure you cant forget your experience but before you do more whining here - try that. Wanna bet its gona be completly different experience for such toon then yours?
And before you gona say something like - end game content is not for every one - sure its not - but leveling to level 80 is meant for every player.
So in my opinion this new solution it going to improve solo playing experience fot all tanks while it wont in fact impact team play too much. Sure it may open some options for I dont know 0,5% of player base - a super high end toons, but even then those most likely will go in parties with similar toons and their tanks dps will remain irrelevant for obvious reasons.
But lets be honest here and give it a try before we judge this.
What I would actually add to this picture is new dps class mechanic - like 10% more dps while 10% less defensive abilities performance. Adding tankiness is fine but adding some dpsness
Not sure about paladins but fighter are in a unique situations where to perform in both paths they need much more AD for that. Its not MOD 15 any more ladies, any try to make a hybrid would in fact means that you suck on both paths. There would be no AA or power share to cover your shortcomings. (at least for now
> And since you make predictions ,I ll make one myself,to see who will be correct;
> Even as in is now,tanks are boring and slow to play.With 30% penalty not with 50% .With 50% penalty new players will never level them to 80,and old players will abandon the class in the curve somewhere between 70 and 80.
> After 1-3 months fromMod16 launch,tanks will be nowhere to be found in the game ,and the devs either will revert the damage penalties,or bolster the DPS defenses,cause the dungeon runs would not be run by ordinary players.
> We will see who is right.
>
>
>
> If the devs made sure to include info about the concept of Loadouts in Fighter character creation, this would never be an issue. Players would ofcourse run their Dreadnaught loadout for solo/campaign groups. The Vanguard path is a tank specc for group dungeon play.
>
> Almost
> Not sure about paladins but fighter are in a unique situations where to perform in both paths they need much more AD for that. Its not MOD 15 any more ladies, any try to make a hybrid would in fact means that you suck on both paths. There would be no AA or power share to cover your shortcomings. (at least for now
Ofc it's nowhere near a pure DPS build, it's a solo content loadout for a player that has chosen to fill the tank role in groups. You don't have to be anywhere near best in slot for the solo loadout to be far more effective than the tank loadout.
If you had radiants insted of tenes I am pretty sure you would have by the sum of radiants power roughly or better damage ouput for 12%.
In the first chart you did 230 hits with 30 tenes procs.That is way lower than 6% .Enchant is underperforming
As for the loadouts thing: Am I a pleb that need to make a double set of gear to do my dailies,while DPS roll on ?
thank you very much,I ll pass.
The whole thread has nothing to do with balance or whatever,the guy that started this doomsday preaching and throwed leaflets there,was the same guy that was against Lostmauth set adjustment,cause his class,CW,was benefitting more.
Dont take his words in face value ,he justs wants to reassure himself that he will top the DPS charts.That is his only motive.
He uses the whole balance thing to masquerade his agenda.Nothing more nothing less.
As for the other guiy supporting him,they just play together for years .Nothing to see there.
First not there is not going to be 4/1/1 becouse in pugs it is not allowed and in private they pick the FASTEST not the easest solution if possible.
Now add range, aoe, control together with companio n offensive gear the gap is way more then just making more dps when it comes to dps vs tank classes.
Now add 20% more damage from 3 members 3 dps 1 tank 1 healer vs 4 tanks add the above and the only reason the set up is not going to be 3/1/1 is that the content is to hard and they need to bring another tank or another healer and that is not because the tank is good dps.
Before this answer others also pointed out more gear for tank/dps path (as Op do not have one tank OP is the worst when it comes to having low dps) easer lvling/questing/farming for dps oriented classes.
Encounter which is the major part of dps, as at wills are reduced to annoying face slapping at best, and if you look at for example cw having for some with control utility and other with higher base damage, Hr (if fixed this one is the jury still out on) will have 6 etc there is built in that tanks do less damage weather they want or not.
Now if you played this game since mod 1 you should remember how the game looked before buff stacking became a thing, A good example is both Pirate that was pure farm and Spellplague that on that time was the hardes dungeon. The groups was by no means 2 or 3 tanks it was 3 or 3 cw/dps.
and
There is only one way are going to be more then 1 tank in groups (yea well except for when friends that likes to play that way form privite) and that is if they do what some suggested nerf the dps classed defences so hard that they can not surive the hard dungeons.
Now all that being said having a 30 % less dps debuff on pure tank path when they got access to dps path is imo not a bad idea if they compensate with higher survivability and aggro control that however is not the case for Justicar (OP) as it has no dps path to fall back to.
In the end dps should not worrie to much about the tanks damage and more of their ability to survive and hold aggro because as it is now if the tank fail at either you do going to need more tanks and healers NOT because of the tanks dps but because 1 tank is not enough to stay alive.
Best
It will not be 90% as others have explained (defense slots, more defensive gear...).
And our survivability is compromised by greater threat generation which others have explained.
But may I add... who will hold aggro?
Everyone in the party would have high threat generation. It would yield chaotic poorly coordinated runs.
An all tank party would die MORE when Orcus, Strahd, Ras Nisi and every other 1-hit boss spins like a top.
Nonsense.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
.
>
> Now all that being said having a 30 % less dps debuff on pure tank path when they got access to dps path is imo not a bad idea if they compensate with higher survivability and aggro control that however is not the case for Justicar (OP) as it has no dps path to fall back to.
>
This sounds like a very good reason to handle paladin/Fighter issues separately instead of slapping +X% DPS and HP on all tanks
Is that a typo?
You would need a threat multiplier in the thousands to do your job with that, and it would make the entire path utterly unplayable for solo.
Hopefully tanking pets like this are going to get a look at as well?
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
Anyone trying to do that would have their real damage drastically reduced by virtue of aggro wars forcing them to play defensively- Fighters can turtledart, but that's nowhere near as effective as just unloading the Dreadnaught's ability combos into a distracted enemy's backside, and that extra 40%hp goes pretty quickly when everything you hit turns around and hits you back, all without the Dreadnaught's ability to wring a damage bonus from blocking.
Enduring Warrior right now is completely useless due to the laughably small effect and bad % HP activation.
Hopefully a massive upgrade could make it not as bad as a survival based passive. I much prefered the old system of Stamina, which ticks down as you hold it.
I can see why the shields were uniformly changed, so every tank class has similar survivability, which means you don't need to balance for Templar's Wrath giving 5 mil TempHP vs. GF just reducing 80% of incoming damage.
However, I can't say that stripping the uniqueness of each shield away was a good idea. Yes, that is a typo.
Should have been "90% of normal damage", or "-10% damage".
Should be fixed now.
After that we ran Temple of Spider Master, had some of the same frustrations with bosses and some enemy hitboxes feeling overly large. I was using threatening rush, cleaving bull feat and cleave, and Enforced Threat all so I could try and grab threat on the enemies scattered all over the place. My buddy on his Barbie in dps mode easily did more than double my damage and was pulling aggro from me occasionally . We both were using the new tradebar store weapon set so difference in weapon damage was not a factor.
I was definitely missing the old Knight's Valor!
> I think with Tremor gone, we could use a 100-150 magnitude adition to ET !
Tremor should absolutely be an universal skill 😭
Bug: Vengeful Blade and Barbarian's Revelry:
When attacking with At-wills, if you score a Crit and have Vengeful Blade, Barbarian's Revelry refuses to proc.
If you have 10 or less Vengeance, Barbarian's Revelry will proc as usual.