test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Official M16: Fighter Feedback

1131416181922

Comments

  • xdruidgregxxdruidgregx Posts: 57Member Arc User

    KC animation is too long for it to be effectively used. Also tooltip sais reflection effect last 8s (that is not true, it last only 6s)


    I thought shield throw could be used as range pull skill (substitute for Tab mark from live). Not happening with 50` range, it's half the range of Tab mark and just slightly more than distance at which i agro mobs. So i can as well use LInebreaker instead and have AoE.


    Without damage on ET its hard to see whitch mobs got affected by it, weapon enchantment can kind of improve it. ET could have pull effect, affected mobs would be pulled towards tank.
  • abelcoeurdacierabelcoeurdacier Posts: 36Member Arc User
    edited March 24
    I transferred my guardian fighter and a gwf that I use for crafting on a test server to compare.
    It confirms what we see in the game at the moment you completely favor the gwf's class.
    At this moment in module 15 the gwf takes the place of the healer, tank and others dd. You gave him everything.

    Here on the test server I see that you are making the same mistakes again,
    worse you take the mechanisms that used to work on the defensive warrior and put them back on the offensive warrior in tank mode. And now, blocking! Hello! What? A warrior with a two hands sword blocking?
    But still you also give him the possibility to move by blocking, while you put a gadget block on the guardian fighter in addition to the old block.

    Seriously who invented this concept of second blocking, it's useless because we already have one and it forces you to stop and hit the button again a second time to stop the system.

    Ok for 30% less damage for a tank,
    but we have a lot of useless gadgets with full condition, and nothing that makes us forget that useless motionless blocking.
    You give us 3% critical rate, under condition and 3% increase damage when full stamina?

    We don't care if we made 3% more critical or damage, we want to be tought,
    and how u want have full stamina if u are focus by foes.

    We're taking a lane to tank, at least give us something to do that.


    A French Dwarf.
    Post edited by abelcoeurdacier on
  • pyc87pyc87 Posts: 20Member Arc User
    Дальнего безоткатного соло агра у танка я так понимаю не будет?
    И чем танк должен наносить урон когда сидит? тем что насидел?
  • pyc87pyc87 Posts: 20Member Arc User
    Что вы сделали за дебилизм из танка? уклона нет (с чем его порезка до 50% мне не ясна), агры нет (то что уроном агр вызывается, но так, сука, ближник и дальнее агра у него нет, как снимать с тех же магов/хилов мобов?) Зачем уравнивать танков и палов? палы это отдельный класс и являются полутанками-полухилами, теперь же у них таже механика , и теперь уних похожая механика, что и у танков, только его вы почему-то не стали садить
  • exgardianexgardian Posts: 126Member Arc User
    pyc87, can you post in english, please ?

    2fv72Fw.png

    #inspiration
  • pyc87pyc87 Posts: 20Member Arc User
    well when your came to us did not bother to translate

    Well, excuse me, I am Rus, and I don’t know Latin adverbs, so I can only use Google translator
    I would like to get a couple of direct answers to the questions (because it’s impossible to learn something on our forum):
    1. why dodging is cut to 50% in pva (pvp doesn’t interest me until there is at least some useful drop)
    2. I do not understand that a tank will have a further recoilless agra at the tank?
    3. (if the last question received a negative answer) How to selectively remove mobs from rangers - from magicians / heals?
    4. How should a tank damage and move in a sitting position? And why does he need this useless skill at all? A fixed circular defensive-paladin chip, the tank has all the mobs in front, the tank moves - it lives.
    5.Why has the paladin tab been altered by analogy with the tank one, but leaves it possible to move?
    6. Why is there no way to change the build in danje? (I understand that the variety is completely killed, but still different builds can be made, the same masses and solos)
    7. And finally, why do we need such a tank? slot in the random queue to occupy?

  • tyfud#3254 tyfud Posts: 24Member Arc User
    edited March 26
    @asterdahl

    A few more bugs I found over the weekend of testing my GF:


    - Critical Severity Weapon's Artifact class feature for offhand is not showing on the character stats page, so not sure if it's actually giving a bonus
    - Shield Talent class feature does not appear to increase stamina or shield recharge rate. There was no noticeable difference in timing a full stamina recharge with or without this class feature. Putting on Elven Battle Trance does have an impact on stamina recharge (shield) rate. It looks like the class feature just isn't working right now
    - Retraining boons (retrain all boons) does not properly retrain powers, so you're left in an inconistent state and must retrain powers with a token, otherwise certain class abilities are not available. This is what was causing the weird bug where I thought Level scaling in dungeons was locking me out of certain class abilities. It's because of the retraining of boons
    - Not a Fighter specific thing, but Elven Battle Trance doesn't seem to work in a lot of scenarios in Undermountain. e.g. the Beholder stuns, wave attacks, etc. However, others do, like the trap/net pull (copied from Chult?). Some consistency with the Elven Battle Trance would help a lot. Right now, the major benefit it provides is the + stamina regen bonus.
    - STR is not showing Physical Damage boost % on the ability scores screen. Have a 31 str right now, and it shows +0% to physical damage boost.




    Played a lot of preview/undermountain over the weekend as Dreadnought. This is starting to feel really good. I have two different loadouts for dreadnought atm, one for standard, soloing dungeon/crawling that includes AOE like Onslaught and more general purpose abilities; and the other for doing single target/boss fights to swap to to maximize damage against a single opponent.

    There’s a real pattern/groove to get into right now that I’m digging, especially with the vengeance mechanic. I love vengeance. It gives me a mechanic to improve my abilities and rotation around. Augment companions are just as viable as combat companions if you’d rather do more damage on your own rather than have a combat companion giving you Combat Advantage, healing, CC, or doing straight up dps with you.

    This feels good. The damage I do feels good. The damage I take feels right. The gear and stats feels right. The way companions work and the variety feels better. Tanking feels good (although I couldn’t get into any parties this weekend to tank, had to do them solo). Onslaught is a really fun ability. I love watching it and seeing it fire. Whoever did that, pretty awesome work :)

    I’m anxious to see what other changes are in store with Dig in specifically (it still feels clunky) but so far, things are looking pretty good for the Fighter!

    Post edited by tyfud#3254 on
  • tyfud#3254 tyfud Posts: 24Member Arc User

    Regarding Offensive/Defensive/Utility slots for companions:

    As a Fighter, whether we're in Vanguard or Dreadnought, we have 3 Defense, 1 Offense, and 1 utility. That works for Vanguard, but for Dreadnought, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

    Almost all of the defensive abilities are geared towards getting hit, which ideally we're not having happen.

    Wouldn't it make sense to have the Dreadnought spec (and appropriate spec for Barbs and Clerics) swap to 3 offense 1 defense 1 utility loadout like the other DPS in the game when they choose the DPS spec path, rather than defaulting it to the class regardless of the spec chosen?
  • manipulosmanipulos Posts: 235Member Arc User
    @tyfud#3254

    You mentioned Elven Battle Trance, are you talking about the armor enchant? It doesn't help with any of the newer control effects, that's why I put mine in the bank over a year ago. Pretty much anything from River District on. Bummer because it was my favorite enchant. Maybe it's still useful in PvP? lol

    Some examples of the types of control effects that it doesn't work against:
    - Yuan-ti partial paralysis, fear, mez - same for those attacks in Tong from normal mobs and bosses
    - Stone-eye stun with the eyeball - same for those effects in nostura's lair and Master Spellplague

    There's probably more I can't think of off the top of my head
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User
    pyc87 said:

    well when your came to us did not bother to translate

    Well, excuse me, I am Rus, and I don’t know Latin adverbs, so I can only use Google translator
    I would like to get a couple of direct answers to the questions (because it’s impossible to learn something on our forum):
    1. why dodging is cut to 50% in pva (pvp doesn’t interest me until there is at least some useful drop)
    2. I do not understand that a tank will have a further recoilless agra at the tank?
    3. (if the last question received a negative answer) How to selectively remove mobs from rangers - from magicians / heals?
    4. How should a tank damage and move in a sitting position? And why does he need this useless skill at all? A fixed circular defensive-paladin chip, the tank has all the mobs in front, the tank moves - it lives.
    5.Why has the paladin tab been altered by analogy with the tank one, but leaves it possible to move?
    6. Why is there no way to change the build in danje? (I understand that the variety is completely killed, but still different builds can be made, the same masses and solos)
    7. And finally, why do we need such a tank? slot in the random queue to occupy?

    I'm going to take a crack at paraphrasing this.

    1. Why the hard cap on deflection?
    2. I think he's asking about ranged taunts (like the old Tab Mark) and whether the Vanguard will have any means of either non-facepulling or peeling.
    3. Definitely asking about peeling, here.
    4. Potty squat question. Don't worry, bro, we all hate Dig In, too.
    5. Think he's asking about Divine Palisade, and why the paladin basically has a version of Dig In that works.
    6. Think this one's about changing builds in queued content. You'll be able to change builds, just not roles; so if you have two Vanguard builds, for example, you'll be able to swap between them.
    7. This could be either a question about queues requiring a tank, or a jab at the relative lack of utility for the Vanguard (i.e. "is this class just there to take up space?")
  • pyc87pyc87 Posts: 20Member Arc User

    pyc87 said:

    well when your came to us did not bother to translate

    Well, excuse me, I am Rus, and I don’t know Latin adverbs, so I can only use Google translator
    I would like to get a couple of direct answers to the questions (because it’s impossible to learn something on our forum):
    1. why dodging is cut to 50% in pva (pvp doesn’t interest me until there is at least some useful drop)
    2. I do not understand that a tank will have a further recoilless agra at the tank?
    3. (if the last question received a negative answer) How to selectively remove mobs from rangers - from magicians / heals?
    4. How should a tank damage and move in a sitting position? And why does he need this useless skill at all? A fixed circular defensive-paladin chip, the tank has all the mobs in front, the tank moves - it lives.
    5.Why has the paladin tab been altered by analogy with the tank one, but leaves it possible to move?
    6. Why is there no way to change the build in danje? (I understand that the variety is completely killed, but still different builds can be made, the same masses and solos)
    7. And finally, why do we need such a tank? slot in the random queue to occupy?

    I'm going to take a crack at paraphrasing this.

    1. Why the hard cap on deflection?
    2. I think he's asking about ranged taunts (like the old Tab Mark) and whether the Vanguard will have any means of either non-facepulling or peeling.
    3. Definitely asking about peeling, here.
    4. Potty squat question. Don't worry, bro, we all hate Dig In, too.
    5. Think he's asking about Divine Palisade, and why the paladin basically has a version of Dig In that works.
    6. Think this one's about changing builds in queued content. You'll be able to change builds, just not roles; so if you have two Vanguard builds, for example, you'll be able to swap between them.
    7. This could be either a question about queues requiring a tank, or a jab at the relative lack of utility for the Vanguard (i.e. "is this class just there to take up space?")
    Thank you for clarifying.
    1+
    2. Yes, an alternative tag. for example, free or somehow, so that from a pile of mobs in the distance, pull out 2-3 defined
    3. I do not understand the word "peeling"
    4. Interferes and annoys
    5. Yes, the paladin Shift is more playable, does not take as much time as squatting.
    6. All the same, it’s bad if the tank gets into the queue bad, draining the dungeon, and its place is not taken (As it is now possible, for example, you can barbarian with a normal cleric, while damaging) Of the 3 DPS, at least someone will damage, you can replace the heal in jars, the tank - no one. It would be nice to make a queue of 1 pure DPS, 1 DPS cleric, 1 DPS tank, 1 tank, 1 heal, and 1 heal tank (then each role has 2 backup options)
    7. The relevance of the tank has become in improving the ability of "knightly valor", now this skill has been rolled back (as well as shift, but it is also quite playable in this variant). Will the guardian be relevant in dungeons when valor is not permanent? . For example: now standing in a random queue, I leave if instead of a tank a paladin is thrown
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User
    @pyc87
    3:
    "Peeling" is a term for, either through threat/aggro mechanics/taunting in PvE or control effects, obstruction, or simply being too dangerous to ignore, forcing an enemy to stop pursuing a more vulnerable party member and either retreat or focus on you, instead.
    (also for removing the skin of a fruit or vegetable, but that's less on-topic)


    5:
    Technically, the paladin Shift is the same as the Vanguard one; its their Tab mechanics that differ (and they don't like theirs very much either, for the reason that you generally don't want the party to cluster around the tank)

    6:
    This has definitely been the topic of a lot of discussion, my own opinions on it are conflicted- suffice to say that I understand their reasoning for making the decision, and also all the potential problems with that decision

    7:
    I would argue that if the Vanguard is only a useful tank when using Knight's Valor, then there are underlying design problems that need to be addressed. @asterdahl 's philosophy for the class is very much that it be able to hold threat and survive doing so without leaning entirely on a single ability.
  • pyc87pyc87 Posts: 20Member Arc User
    edited March 26

    @pyc87
    3:
    "Peeling" is a term for, either through threat/aggro mechanics/taunting in PvE or control effects, obstruction, or simply being too dangerous to ignore, forcing an enemy to stop pursuing a more vulnerable party member and either retreat or focus on you, instead.
    (also for removing the skin of a fruit or vegetable, but that's less on-topic)


    5:
    Technically, the paladin Shift is the same as the Vanguard one; its their Tab mechanics that differ (and they don't like theirs very much either, for the reason that you generally don't want the party to cluster around the tank)

    6:
    This has definitely been the topic of a lot of discussion, my own opinions on it are conflicted- suffice to say that I understand their reasoning for making the decision, and also all the potential problems with that decision

    7:
    I would argue that if the Vanguard is only a useful tank when using Knight's Valor, then there are underlying design problems that need to be addressed. @asterdahl 's philosophy for the class is very much that it be able to hold threat and survive doing so without leaning entirely on a single ability.
    5. not really, he is faster. no time costs to get up. And the mechanic itself is different, for the paladin, while you hold it down, for the tank to press twice. Now the tank should not receive damage (we do not give out action points) - hence the movement and the movement once more to survive. Do you agree with that? New mechanics simply do not give the opportunity to move away from strong blows (for example, a blow from above the last boss in the grave) or red zones. For example, Fang Island, with its giants, is well suited. When several strong blows can fly with a difference of several instant

    6. I understand also. Approaching the standard group. The question is rather that there should not be 3 magicians or 3 barbarians in the same queue, as well as two paladins.

    7. There is no use; there is no point in going to dungeon. Just one of the most effective ways to keep all the crowds (namely the crowd) mobs on themselves "Knightly valor" + "Protected onslaught." If you recall module 2 (to improve valor). That tank was needed only in two dungeons - "ice peak" and "sea caves". In the first case, he was completely replaced by the bow, in the second he was a cleric. If he survives himself (even keeping all the mobs on himself), but will not be useful - he will again become irrelevant. According to pervosti, they will take him to dungey, they will forget about him after a month or two. For example, the current state of the cleric is the oracle.

    P.S. You do not think that I am a noob in the game (At the moment I have 2 fully dressed characters, three more have 15-17k and can easily go to any dange without being a burden). Already experienced zeroing all 6 of their characters. I am not afraid of global change. But the fact that a useless undying wall is made of a tank again is alarming. Since the tank is my favorite class, though not the main character

  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User
    pyc87 said:

    @pyc87
    3:
    "Peeling" is a term for, either through threat/aggro mechanics/taunting in PvE or control effects, obstruction, or simply being too dangerous to ignore, forcing an enemy to stop pursuing a more vulnerable party member and either retreat or focus on you, instead.
    (also for removing the skin of a fruit or vegetable, but that's less on-topic)


    5:
    Technically, the paladin Shift is the same as the Vanguard one; its their Tab mechanics that differ (and they don't like theirs very much either, for the reason that you generally don't want the party to cluster around the tank)

    6:
    This has definitely been the topic of a lot of discussion, my own opinions on it are conflicted- suffice to say that I understand their reasoning for making the decision, and also all the potential problems with that decision

    7:
    I would argue that if the Vanguard is only a useful tank when using Knight's Valor, then there are underlying design problems that need to be addressed. @asterdahl 's philosophy for the class is very much that it be able to hold threat and survive doing so without leaning entirely on a single ability.
    5. not really, he is faster. no time costs to get up. And the mechanic itself is different, for the paladin, while you hold it down, for the tank to press twice. Now the tank should not receive damage (we do not give out action points) - hence the movement and the movement once more to survive. Do you agree with that? New mechanics simply do not give the opportunity to move away from strong blows (for example, a blow from above the last boss in the grave) or red zones. For example, Fang Island, with its giants, is well suited. When several strong blows can fly with a difference of several instant

    6. I understand also. Approaching the standard group. The question is rather that there should not be 3 magicians or 3 barbarians in the same queue, as well as two paladins.

    7. There is no use; there is no point in going to dungeon. Just one of the most effective ways to keep all the crowds (namely the crowd) mobs on themselves "Knightly valor" + "Protected onslaught." If you recall module 2 (to improve valor). That tank was needed only in two dungeons - "ice peak" and "sea caves". In the first case, he was completely replaced by the bow, in the second he was a cleric. If he survives himself (even keeping all the mobs on himself), but will not be useful - he will again become irrelevant. According to pervosti, they will take him to dungey, they will forget about him after a month or two. For example, the current state of the cleric is the oracle.

    P.S. You do not think that I am a noob in the game (At the moment I have 2 fully dressed characters, three more have 15-17k and can easily go to any dange without being a burden). Already experienced zeroing all 6 of their characters. I am not afraid of global change. But the fact that a useless undying wall is made of a tank again is alarming. Since the tank is my favorite class, though not the main character

    I'm sorry, I'm having trouble following; I think some crucial points aren't getting across, but I'm having trouble identifying exactly where the disconnect is.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 979Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 26
    @pyc87
    Я согласен со всем, что ты сказал. Спасибо за ваш отзыв!

    Edit
    "Peeling" это метафора Это означает «вытащить монстров от своих друзей».
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Posts: 250Member Arc User
    edited March 26
    I'm not exactly sure of his reasons, but he seems to be saying he dislikes the basic concept of a tank ... being a tank. His dissatisfaction seems to stem from what's expected as a tank role - aggro and don't die - that he thinks this makes them worthless. He wants tanks to have a backup function as a good dpser or healer as well, at the same time as holding aggro.
  • pyc87pyc87 Posts: 20Member Arc User
    edited March 26

    I'm not exactly sure of his reasons, but he seems to be saying he dislikes the basic concept of a tank ... being a tank. His dissatisfaction seems to stem from what's expected as a tank role - aggro and don't die - that he thinks this makes them worthless. He wants tanks to have a backup function as a good dpser or healer as well, at the same time as holding aggro.

    Not exactly, the tank must live and keep aggro. it's minimum. but it should not be at the expense of clothing and level. Survival should be due to the ability to play a tank, knowledge of mechanics mobs / bosses. The tank damage is secondary, and about tankers with otkhil - paladins. I do not like that from a mobile, interesting class, they make a seated statue. If now in order to survive in a crowd of mobs I have to watch all the mobs around me, and turn around under especially strong blows with a shield. This is a dynamic, this is a game. On the test, I see that the tanks were equated with the paladins: I walked one button, all the mobs chose me as a target, pressed the second button, sat down, went to smoke while the others were killing the pack. The current paladin in the defensive branch is just such, why, in principle, I always played the paladin only in the healing branch.

    About the uselessness, even holding on to all mobs tank does not protect the team from shots. Especially the melee fighters (Dodgers, Mages, Barbarians). With lack of prowess, it was more profitable (!) To take one more DPS than a tank. For example, in group 1 cleric, 3 wizards, did not take a tank, but a barbarian

    I hope my posts are a bit understandable, because I don’t know what comes out)
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Posts: 250Member Arc User
    edited March 26
    Yes, that helps considerably. Thank you for explaining. I <3 you for pushing through the language problem. My ability to read Russian is much diminished and I apologise that I cannot offer to help you translate better.
  • pyc87pyc87 Posts: 20Member Arc User
    edited March 26
    Для чего я прошу сделать эквивалент метки- не для боевого преимущества, не для снижения брони, а для возможно из 7 мобов висящем на сопартийце забрать только 6, кликнув по каждому из них, не заинтересовав последнего. Для чего это надо? Для примера в "склепе Крегмаера" после 2 костра есть двери, перед ними стоит 3 пака мобов. Что бы открыть двери надо их убить+ появившийся ещё 1 пак мобов (ведьма с парой лучников). Но есть второй вариант кинуть крестик на 2 мобов определённых и оттащить их подальше от оставшихся мобов. тогда надо будет убить только 1 пак, что бы открыть дверь. Это единичный пример. И в нынешнем варианте игры никто не обращает на него внимания потому что мобы очень быстро умирают. Или в нынешних "моровых пещерах" есть достижение "портальный прохиндей"(надо пройти открыnm меньше 5 порталов). Сколько я не пробовал группой получилось только один раз, когда меня слушались и ходили шаг в шаг, на всех персонажах я его делал, проходя "моровые пещеры" соло. часть мобов в данжеоне стоят прямо под порталами, подойдёшь - откроешь портал, надо выманить. В одном месте есть только несколько небольших площадок где можно бить мобов не боясь открыть порталы. Переделанному танку придётся подходить, тем самым открыть портал.
    И да, сама метка как картинка на мобе помогает ориентироваться кто мной заинтересован. Новый индикатор крайне не удобен. Попробуйте заметить кто из 20-30 мобов бегающих вокруг не заинтересован танком. Метку видно. Как вариант визуального улучшения, при 100% заинтересованности моба вами- на этом мобы появляется метка (только визуальный эффект)


    For what I ask you to make the equivalent of a label — not for combat advantage, not for reducing armor, but for maybe from 7 mobs hanging on a party member to pick up only 6 by clicking on each of them without interest in the latter. What is it for? For example, in the “Cregmaer's crypt” after 2 fires there are doors, in front of them there are 3 packs of mobs. To open the doors you need to kill them + another 1 pack of mobs appeared (a witch with a pair of archers). But there is a second option to throw a cross on 2 specific mobs and drag them away from the remaining mobs. then it will be necessary to kill only 1 pack to open the door. This is a single example. And in the current version of the game no one pays attention to him because mobs die very quickly. Or in the current "sea caves" there is the achievement of the "portal HAMSTER" (you have to go through less than 5 open portals). How much I did not try the group happened only once, when they listened to me and walked a step in a step, on all the characters I did it, going through the “sea caves” of the solo. Part of the mobs in the dungeon are right under the portals, come up - open the portal, you need to lure. In one place there are only a few small platforms where you can beat mobs without fear of opening portals. The converted tank will have to be approached, thereby opening the portal.
    And yes, the label itself as a picture on a mob helps to navigate who is interested in me. The new indicator is not very convenient. Try to see which of the 20-30 mobs running around is not interested in a tank. The label is visible. As a visual improvement option, with 100% mob interest, a tag appears on this mob (visual effect only)

    PS "portal HAMSTER" - My achievement was translated in Russian, it sounds like Prokhindy in Russian and is not an insult.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Posts: 250Member Arc User
    edited March 26
    Yes, his explanation cleared it up for me. I understand now. Also he wants to focus on a more mobile style of tanking, pulls and such instead of just facetanking everything til it's dead.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    Even after threat boost patch, pets are stealing aggro from Vanguard.

    image
    Lions stealing aggro from endgame geared Vanguard in CN at Beholder Boss.

    No pet, no matter how Legendary should ever be greater threat builder then a Vanguard.

    Overall, my ~6 T2 runs 3:1:1 w Vanguard were pretty good.
    Held aggro better (except for the frakking Lions).

    Thank you for the report! As others have pointed out, this is a longstanding issue with certain tank pets which use hard taunts, we are working to remove and adjust all of these pets, so that this isn't something that happens in group play. Pets won't feature hard taunts in Module 16.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    dolrey said:

    First of all @asterdahl everything about your responses is great. Really for about 10 years of mmo playing I have never seen so open and productive dialog between developers and usual players. And I am sure that it will affect the game very well.

    So, let's go to feedback.

    1. I find that 40% HP increase in vanguard is good. But in my opinion this change can cause reverse situation (when dreadnought might become less popular). I mean vanguard will become 40% more tanky but due to the change in damage decrease from 30% to 10% vanguard will have only 20% less damage than dreadnought. So in my opinion probably it would be better to cancel change in damage decrease so vanguard will be 40% more tanky but will have 40% less damage than dreadnought. This will be honest balance I think.
    2. Overall I agree with shield nerf. It is not good when tanks are too strong (content just can become too trivial and less interesting). But here I also should say that different mechanics wich restore shield stamina (such as passives, at-wills, encounter powers and enhancements) should be buffed. Because their effectiveness after nerf of shield will be reduced by 30% in vanguard and twice in dreadnought. Otherwise it can cause different issues with gameplay of tanks.
    3. Also I have an idea how to rework underperforming passive skill [Enduring warrior]. Its problem is written in second spoiler below. So, in some online games with action combat where tank has shield absorbing fixed amount of damage usually is passive/feat/class feature wich alow to tank to restore X% of blocked damage as hit points. And it is very balanced and effective mechanic because it encourage player's skill and good shield blocking. And my suggestion is to rework [Enduring warrior] in the same way to make role of its mechanics relatively similar to its current (providing more sustain). So [Enduring warrior] should restore about 20% of blocked damage as fighter's health. I think this change can make fighter's gameplay much much more dynamic and interesting encouraging good shield blocking and right resource management.
    4. I am looking forward for changes in [Dig in]. 10% damage mitigation and immune to combat advantage is good. But there is one more problem of [Dig in] which should be solved. Against high crowds of monsters staying in [Dig in] you become surrounded so after deactivating [Dig in] you just can't get out of there (taking high damage of course) because models of foes just don't let you pass thru them. So [Dig in] needs in one more adjustment to make it completely useful. After deactivation of [Dig in] fighter should be able to pass thru enemies for about 1-2 seconds.
    5. And also I would like to ask about are some changes in [Feytouched Enchantment] incoming to solve issue that I described in one of my previous comments?
    Problem of [Feytouched enchantment]:
    dolrey said:

    I like GF changes. Smart tanking from modules 1-2 welcome.

    But there is 1 problem that tanks will have. As you can see at screenshot [Feytouched enchantment] in m16 can be activated only by your damaging daily powers. So this means that every daily power will decrease damage of your target by 20% (at higher ranks of enhancement).




    And the problem is that all defensive daily powers of GF don't deal damage so they can't activate [Feytouched enchantment].
    Also they give same 20% of protection for group as this [Feytouched enchantment]. This means that GF has no reason to use all new defensive daily powers to decrease incoming damage by 20% because he can use offensive daily and have damage+protection at the same time.

    For example daily power [Phalanx] give you and your allies only 20% damage mitigation:



    While for example [Earthshaker] give you 3s stun+damage+same 20% damage mitigation from [Feytouched enchantment]:


    So this fact can cause low popularity of new daily powers and can badly affect gameplay of GF or of orher classes. And in order to adress this I would like to ask to add to all daily powers ability to activate effects of echancements. Or just bring back old mechanics where it can be activated with encounter powers.

    @asterdahl could you please tell are developers going to do something with this problem or not? Thank you.


    Problem of passive skill [Enduring warrior]:
    dolrey said:

    Vanguard's passive skill [Enduring warrior] looks relatively useless. Having 5% damage decrease while below 20% health means that your overall health will be higher on 1% (ONE percent!!). Also other tanky passives of Vanguard (such as [Shield talent] or [Steel recovery]) works in much higher number of situations.

    So, I think that without improvements [Enduring warrior] will be ignored by almost 100% of fighters.



    Thank you for the kind words, and thank you for taking the time to test out the changes on the preview server! I'd like to take a moment to address some of your feedback:

    Enduring Warrior will be getting a rework. The same goes for Feytouched, we are in agreement that the potency of this effect is too high, and I've spoken with the designer working on enchantments, and will make sure that an adjustment gets in before M16 launches.

    In regards to the shield nerf, keep in mind that though the shield doesn't block for as large a percentage of your health anymore, due to the massive increase to your maximum health, the total amount of damage the shield stops is still very similar to before the changes. I am hesitant to increase stamina regenerating mechanics as stamina already regenerates fairly quickly. Which translates into a rather large amount of hit points of damage you can mitigate that don't require any healing.

    Of course that being said, that's not to say we won't consider making further adjustments to the survivability of tanks, we are definitely keeping an eye on things as we hone in on the final launch balance for the module.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    @asterdahl any chance of putting a little bit of damage back on "soft control" powers like Enforced Threat (and, by extension, Daring Shout and the Paladin equivalent)? Like, keep the basic function of jumping you to the top of the threat table, but making the "buffer" threat come from the damage (which would then scale with our hurty stats like Power and Crit, allowing it to keep pace better with increasing item levels without as frequent tweaks to the power's own equation)

    It would also give those powers a potential niche on a soloing bar and help alleviate the relative dearth of intuitive and rewarding AoEs on the tank paths.

    (btw, you described Linebreaker as 'kind of a skillshot' and I was wondering if we could dig into that thinking, so to speak- the frustration with Linebreaker as anything but an opener comes from the potential for the mob shuffle AI to turn it from an AoE into an undertuned single target. I'd propose turning it into an actual skillshot, either a ground-target or camera-bound ability that halts your movement and inflicts damage in a cone when you collide with something hurtable. Lessens its utility in PvP, but improves it in PvE and even gives you an emergency dash if you slot it.)

    In regards to powers which place you at the top of the target's threat list, please note that even if I were to add damage, the primary effect of these powers of placing you at the top of the threat list plus a bit, would not change. There are no plans to have that percentage scale with any stats. It already puts you at a decent lead on the enemy, though the lead is percentage based, so if you lose threat in the first few seconds of a pull, and then enforced threat, you won't get a huge lead. This wouldn't change much if a small amount of damage were added to Enforced Threat, for instance. That being said, one of your feat choices this week will be that Enforced Threat will grant a 6s buff to threat generated.

    In regards to Linebreaker, the change you propose is not impossible, but if that change were made, not only would it be possible to mistakenly hit only one enemy, it would be possible to hit 0 enemies. I personally haven't had any issues hitting groups with linebreaker, and most of our tanks internally have gotten used to it fairly quickly, but I am happy to consider changes if there's strong enough feedback!
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    rjc9000 said:

    asterdahl said:


    Naturally, this means that your block is a little weaker, but it's still very powerful given how quickly stamina regenerates. We think these changes feel good, a bit more tank healing is required in group content, and tanks can't shield quite as much so often in PvP. However, we're absolutely still ironing out the details regarding tank durability, so these numbers could be reverted, or changed further, but we'd like to see how everyone feels about these changes. So please send your feedback once you've had a chance to check them out in this week's upcoming build.


    I am sure @thefabricant has already stated this in the Paladin thread, but I think, retroactively, reducing the penalty of the tank passive was a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors tank rather than DPS.

    I would suggest retooling Path of the Vanguard (or the tank spec passives) to reduce the damage you deal by 50%, increase HP/Defense/and Deflect by 15%, but increase aggro generation by 400% (up from 200%). On the tank specs, you come out ahead in aggro (50% reduced damage * 4x aggro = 200%, or 2x the aggro of the comparable DPS) while keeping the tanks focused on defending.

    As for the stat bonus, I suggested an improvement to HP/Defense/Deflect rather than purely HP so so the Defense or Deflect minded players don't feel like they're left out by the tank passive. I also suggested 15% because the bonus is split amongst 3 stats (45% total bonus) rather than just 1 stat, in addition to "13.333%" being janky from a description perspective.

    I can keep the Boat/Coat name so as long as the class is fun to play. If it bothers more people besides my joking side, you could truncate Battle Master as "Battlemaster", which isn't grammatically correct, but still keeps the idea. he suggested Juggernaut name is also evocative of the playstyle style envisioned.


    ---
    I saw a few complaints about Enduring Warrior, here's my idea for a DnD themed revamp.

    Seeing as how there have been complaints about Enduring Warrior, I'd suggest changing Enduring Warrior to "Strength Before Death". Change effect to "if you are at 35% or below HP, attacks deal their effects as a 5 second DoT. The DoT deals 1/5th of the attack's normal damage per second. The DoT effect(s) be cleared by Second Wind.

    While the idea is from the Samurai of the Xanathar's Guide to Everything suppliment and not the western European themed Fighter as a whole, the feat sounded too perfect to give up for the tank spec.

    I wanted an interesting and useful "oh god I'm going to die need to survive" passive. It took me a while to think of a unique effect for the "delayed death" theme and I eventually took inspiration from Payday 2's Stoic perkdeck, which also has the "delayed death" theme.

    I don't think it's broken in PvE because you should not be getting to low health in perfect/good play.

    I don't think it'd be broken in PvP because the tank spec (hopefully) has the 50% reduced damage from the passive, making them that annoying person that can't kill you, but simply bogs you down while trying to take the node.
    I want to address the pushback that a certain subset of players is having to the reduction of the tank damage penalty. I want to reiterate what I said to those on the other side of the fence who were frustrated by the 30% damage reduction before I made the changes—our goal is that tanks do roughly 70% of the damage of a DPS when they are opting for all DPS powers.

    This goal has not changed. It bears mentioning as I believe some people are forgetting that, the tank paragon paths do not have access to the same damage increasing class mechanics or feats as their DPS focused counterparts. It's of the utmost importance to me that Dreadnought is a completely viable DPS to play, and I will be making adjustments as necessary to ensure that is the case. At the same time, I will be working to make sure that we hit the 70% mark we were aiming for on tank damage.

    It just may be that the flat damage reduction does not need to be 70%, because other factors are at play. Just because a single Anvil of Doom used by the two paths can deal similar damage, doesn't mean that the two paths will necessarily deal similar DPS over the course of a fight.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    mythracka said:

    Occurred today, testing on Dreadnought in Barovia and testing combat in Heroics.

    Not sure if relevant but running Anvil of Doom, Heated Vengeance and Weight of Vengeance.

    Entered combat. Run vengeance to around 50 without using Seethe initially. Was periodically trying anvil to test above noted skills and then began dropping in and out of Seethe to charge vengeance mid combat. This caused Seethe to lock and I was unable to re-enter Seethe from that point.

    When out of combat and vengeance had run completely out I was still glowing red (but without the red eyes). Still Seethe was locked and hitting the Tab key sometimes caused the screen to 'giggle' repeatedly but nothing else. Going to the Powers tab on my Characters record and mousing over the Tab ability (that normally pops up the tool-tip labelled Seethe), was showing the label 'Lower Guard'.

    Going to a campfire and changing to Vanguard and then changing back to Dreadnought reset the ability. The red glow vanished changing to Vanguard, and when back as Dreadnought and checking the Powers tab the correct tool-tip for Seethe was now correctly present again and I could enter and leave Seethe again to gain Vengeance.

    Until changing paragon paths I couldn't find any way to reset the Seethe ability.


    I apologize for the inconvenience this issue has caused! It's caused us no end of headaches internally as well, and will finally be fixed this week. In the meantime, if you hit the issue again, logging out to character select will resolve your issue.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    rjc9000 said:




    I am sure @thefabricant has already stated this in the Paladin thread, but I think, retroactively, reducing the penalty of the tank passive was a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors tank rather than DPS.

    I would suggest retooling Path of the Vanguard (or the tank spec passives) to reduce the damage you deal by 50%, increase HP/Defense/and Deflect by 15%, but increase aggro generation by 400% (up from 200%). On the tank specs, you come out ahead in aggro (50% reduced damage * 4x aggro = 200%, or 2x the aggro of the comparable DPS) while keeping the tanks focused on defending.



    -

    The player you mentioned ,aside from making severe nerf proposals for a class that dont plays,he soloed a dungeon in preview etos,playing a CW.
    I am sure you know it.Yet I did not saw you here ,asking for an adjustment down to the survivability of DPS compared to tanks.
    I think, retroactively, leaving aside the DPS advantage of striker classes,while introducing no trade offs in their defense was awas a mistake. That blurs the line between tank and DPS and overwhelmingly favors DPS rather than tanks.
    Why to take a tank when a DPS cannot die?


    I would suggest retooling Path of the Dreadnaught (or the DPS spec passives) to increase the damage taken by 50%, decrease HP/Deflect/Defense by 15%, but increase accuracy ,companion influence and awareness by 100% .
    On the DPS specs, you come out ahead in DPS ,while keeping the DPS focused on attacking ,not soloing dungeons,not asking nerfs for classes they don't play.



    We would generally prefer not to use heavy handed passive powers that dramatically adjust player stats based on their role. However, soloing EToS while being scaled is obviously not something we are aiming to be possible with Module 16's launch, so we will absolutely be making adjustments.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    rjc9000 said:

    @asterdahl or anyone reading this, really:

    If the continued adaptation of more 5e DnD things into the class is a good idea, then these were ideas and suggestions I came up with that attempt to incorporate more 5e material.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AWvCTaN6mL2pRqErzZRV0nn3caWYkSTXzB_GR7r7gyw/edit?usp=sharing

    They denote the original 5e source (if not a NW invention), while fixing some of the uninteresting/bland powers/class features and promoting unique playstyles from feats.

    I am not sure what is or isn't broken, but remember these are merely suggestions: I'm not the programmer/developer at end of the day.

    Thanks for taking the time to write up and detail these suggestions. Bookmarked, I will definitely be checking out your spreadsheet!

    I would like to clarify that while we are certainly taking opportunities to bring Neverwinter more in-line with 5th edition, this wasn't a specific goal of Module 16. We set out to fix longstanding issues with the game as a whole. We considered the bizarre 4th edition specific naming conventions the classes were using to be a problem area, not specifically because we wanted to be closer to 5th edition necessarily, but because anyone familiar with any other addition before or after 4th, will not be familiar with those names.

  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    @asterdahl

    A few more bugs I found over the weekend of testing my GF:


    - Critical Severity Weapon's Artifact class feature for offhand is not showing on the character stats page, so not sure if it's actually giving a bonus
    - Shield Talent class feature does not appear to increase stamina or shield recharge rate. There was no noticeable difference in timing a full stamina recharge with or without this class feature. Putting on Elven Battle Trance does have an impact on stamina recharge (shield) rate. It looks like the class feature just isn't working right now
    - Retraining boons (retrain all boons) does not properly retrain powers, so you're left in an inconistent state and must retrain powers with a token, otherwise certain class abilities are not available. This is what was causing the weird bug where I thought Level scaling in dungeons was locking me out of certain class abilities. It's because of the retraining of boons
    - Not a Fighter specific thing, but Elven Battle Trance doesn't seem to work in a lot of scenarios in Undermountain. e.g. the Beholder stuns, wave attacks, etc. However, others do, like the trap/net pull (copied from Chult?). Some consistency with the Elven Battle Trance would help a lot. Right now, the major benefit it provides is the + stamina regen bonus.
    - STR is not showing Physical Damage boost % on the ability scores screen. Have a 31 str right now, and it shows +0% to physical damage boost.




    Played a lot of preview/undermountain over the weekend as Dreadnought. This is starting to feel really good. I have two different loadouts for dreadnought atm, one for standard, soloing dungeon/crawling that includes AOE like Onslaught and more general purpose abilities; and the other for doing single target/boss fights to swap to to maximize damage against a single opponent.

    There’s a real pattern/groove to get into right now that I’m digging, especially with the vengeance mechanic. I love vengeance. It gives me a mechanic to improve my abilities and rotation around. Augment companions are just as viable as combat companions if you’d rather do more damage on your own rather than have a combat companion giving you Combat Advantage, healing, CC, or doing straight up dps with you.

    This feels good. The damage I do feels good. The damage I take feels right. The gear and stats feels right. The way companions work and the variety feels better. Tanking feels good (although I couldn’t get into any parties this weekend to tank, had to do them solo). Onslaught is a really fun ability. I love watching it and seeing it fire. Whoever did that, pretty awesome work :)

    I’m anxious to see what other changes are in store with Dig in specifically (it still feels clunky) but so far, things are looking pretty good for the Fighter!

    Thank you for the bug reports, and I am very pleased to hear you are enjoying the feel of Dreadnought right now! We still have plenty of issues to iron out, but we've been working on these changes for a long, long time, so I'm happy to hear that things are starting to come together for some.
Sign In or Register to comment.