dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @abelcoeurdacier said: > "Dig in" is still useless ,despite it is more reactive and no more bugs. > We have allready a block mecanism why u overload this class with another one? > U HAVE TO REMOVE "DIG IN" SYSTEM AND FIND SOMETHING AS USEFULL FOR TAB AS OLD MARK SYSTEM > > A french dwarf.
@asterdahl , you have our respect. You are a professional and worked very hard on Mod16. But it's time to "cut your losses". Dig In was a good idea, but it does not fit the needs of your new Fighter class. You convinced us, via the "Jane Equation" that threat is active, not passive. We must hit and hurt to earn aggro. We are fine with that. But Dig-In contradicts that philosophy. You demand active tanking. Okay. We can adapt to that. Yet you have given a PASSIVE tab function that is reduntant in function to the Shift function. This is a direct contradiction.
Do not despair, Asterdahl. The solution is simple. One word. "Mark". No buff/defuff. Just "Mark". Change Tab to a threat-building Mark (sans all debuffs). That's it. That's all you need to do to end Fighter aggro concerns.
TLDR Stop "Digging in" on the current tab. Let it go. Take the better/easier path. Tab=threat multiplier
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Fully agree with previous posts. ----- 1. The same classes. At the moment on the main server of the game. Paladins and tanks perform similar roles in different ways. Paladins: Survival is due to temporary health and shields. The survival rate of the group is due to the increased resistance of the group (% parameters). Treatment group. Agro due to several strong skills giving an absolute degree of agro Tanks: Survival at the expense of hands, defense, movement. Group Survival - Due to the transfer of damage from the group to themselves (Knightly Valor) Agro due to the gradual increase in the degree of agro.
At the moment on the test, these are the same classes. The differences are minimal. Same survival mechanics. (Tab, Shift). You returned the old version of the shield, it is not worse than the current one. The same mechanics agro. By and large, everything is the same, damage numbers and image / skill names are not so important.
Why 2 identical classes? ------ 2. Shield / Dig-In. It has become more convenient and practical, faster, better. Now Dig-In is the last chance to survive. (may be useful a couple of times a week). As a result, we have 2 identical skills. what for? My proposal to combine both skills: Shift remains the same up to 25%. When endurance has dropped to 25% - is replaced by "Dig-In". (The last chance to survive is to go on the defensive). At the same time: damage to the shield is reduced by 50%. become circular protection. the ability to move and attack is lost.
Tab-return analog Mark. Far. Single Purpose. without cooldown. Agro.without increasing damage. ----- 3. Skills (feat): Yes, you wanted to simplify. overdo. And they are generally needed in this version? No choice. There is an illusion of choice. There is no diversity. there are mandatory. As mentioned above. M15-skills - dismantled. In parts offered as an Encounter-skill + Feat. Modify. a) Enhance Encounter (At-Will, Daily, Class Feature) OR strengthen the character (the same bonus to health from the main characteristics- endurance) b) Return recycled branches. In the form of a new choice. one or two. Example: On the example of "knightly valor" There are 2 branches. In each of the branches on 5 Feat. also "one or the second". 1. Maximum survival. Here she will give invulnerability to herself + 1 in the group (By analogy with the old "jubilation" of a cleric) 2. Maximum group protection. here it will be analogous as in m15.
What will it give? This will give a choice. Will give the ability to maneuver skills and parameters. Does this make it harder for you to work? of course. But is it so strong? Variability will decrease many times than now. And will not look defective.
Separately, about the new "Knightly valor." She is raw. In this form, it is not suitable for use. At a minimum, the target of defense must choose a tank, and not by chance.
Rus:
Полностью согласен с предыдущими сообщениями.
1. Одинаковые классы. НА данный момент на основном сервере игры. Паладины и танки выполняют похожие роли по разному. Паладины: Выживаемость своя- за счёт временных здоровья и щитов. Выживаемость группы- за счёт увеличения сопротивляемости группы (параметров %). Лечения группы. Агро- за счёт нескольких сильных умений дающих абсолютную степень агро Танки: Выживаемость- за счёт рук, обороны, движения. Выживаемость группы- За счёт переноса урона с группы на себя (Доблесть Рыцарская) Агро- за счёт постепенного увеличения степени агро.
На данный момент на тестовом, это одинаковые классы. Различия минимальны. Одинаковая механика выживания. (Таб, Шифт). вы вернули старую версию щита- она не хуже нынешней. Одинаковая механика агро. По большому счёту- одинаковое всё, цифры урона и картинки/названия умений не столь важны.
Зачем 2 одинаковых класса?
2. Щит/ Dig-In. Оно стало удобнее и практичнее, быстрее, лучше. Сейчас Dig-In - умение последнего шанса выжить. ( может пригодится пару раз в неделю). В итоге мы имеем 2 одинаковых умения. зачем? Моё предложение объединить оба умения: Шифт- остаётся прежним до 25%. Когда выносливость упала до 25%- заменяется на "Dig-In". (Последний шанс выжить - уйти в глухую оборону). При этом: уменьшается входящий в щит урон на 50%. становиться круговая защита. пропадает возможность двигаться и атаковать.
Таб- вернуть аналог Mark. Дальняя. Одноцелевая. без кулдауна. Агро.
3. Навыки (Feat): Да, вы хотели упростить. перестарались. А они вообще нужны в таком варианте? Нет выбора. Есть иллюзия выбора. Нет разнообразия. есть обязательные. Как было сказано выше. м15-умения - разобрали. По частям предложили как Encounter-умение +Feat. Доработайте. а) усиление Encounter (At-Will, Daily, Class Feature) или усиление самого персонажа (тот же бонус к здоровью от основной характеристики- выносливости) б) Верните переработанные ветки. В виде нового выбора. одно или второе. Пример: На примере "рыцарской доблести" Есть 2 ветки 1. Максимальная выживаемость. Тут она будет давать неуязвимость себе+ 1 в группе (По аналогии со старым "ликование" клирика) 2. максимальная защита группы. В каждой из веток по 5 Feat. также "одно или второе". тут она будет аналогом как в м15.
Что это даст? Это даст выбор. Даст возможность манёвра умениями и параметрами. Усложнит ли это для вас работу? конечно. Но настолько сильно ли? Вариативность уменьшится в разы,чем сейчас. И не будет выглядеть ущербно.
Отдельно про новую "Рыцарская доблесть". Она сырая. В данном виде она не пригодна к использоаванию. Как минимум цель защиты должен выбирать танк, а не случайно.
I agree with the previous messages. 1. Same classes It turns out now there will be 2 identical classes. Paladin tank and tank. Now on the basis of the server paladin and tank have different game mechanics. They have one goal, but different paths of achievement. Paladin: Survival of its own. Due to temporary health and shields. Group protection. Increased group resistance (% of parameters) + small treatment Aggro. Several skills generating a large degree of aggro on mobs. Tank: Survival own: hands, movement, defense. Protection of the group: due to interception of damage from the group to itself. (knightly valor) Aggro. Gradual increase in the degree of aggro due to damage. Different mechanics, different styles of games. Everything is different. On the test, both classes become the same. Equal Shield Mechanics and Dig In. Equal skill mechanics (damage numbers, pictures, animation don't matter - achieving the same goals as the main targets) Why do we need 2 of the same class? 2. Dig In and Shield. The new version of Dig In has become more convenient, playable, faster, better. But still remains superfluous. The ability to survive the last chance (useful a couple of times a week) we have two identical skills. What for? My suggestion is to save Dig In exactly as the last chance to survive. Change the shield. Up to 25% work as now. When the remaining 25% - become Dig In. The damage entering the shield is reduced by 50%. Circular defense. The ability to move and attack disappears. Only aggro. Single-purpose Far. Without cooldown In the tab, return the analog Mark. No buff / defuff. Only aggro. Single-purpose. Far. Without cooldown
Rus:
Согласен с предыдущими сообщениями. 1. Одинаковые классы Получается сейчас будет 2 одинаковых класса. Паладин-танк и танк. Сейчас на основ сервере паладин и танк имеют разную механику игры. Имеют одну цель, но разные пути достижения. Паладин: Выживаемость своя. За счёт временных здоровья и щитов. Защита группы. Повышение сопротивляемости группы(%параметров)+ небольшое лечение Аггро.Несколько умений генерирующих большую степень аггро на мобов. Танк: Выживаемость своя: руки, движение, оборона. Защита группы:за счёт перехвата урона с группы на себя. (рыцарская доблесть) Аггро.Постепенное повышение степени аггро за счёт нанесения урона. Разные механики, разные стили игры.Всё разное. На тестовом оба класса становятся одинаковыми. Одинаковая механика щита и Dig In. Одинаковая механика умений (Цифры урона, картинки, анимация не имеют значения – достижение основных целей одинакого) Зачем нужны 2 одинаковых класса? 2. Dig In и щит. Новая версия Dig In стал более удобным, играбельным,, быстрым, лучше. Но всё равно остаётся лишним. Умение последнего шанса выжить (пригодится пару раз в неделю) мы имеем два одинаковых умения. Зачем? Моё предложение, чтобы сохранить Dig In именно как последний шанс выжить. Изменить щит. До 25% рабоатет как и сейчас. Когда остаётся 25%- становиться Dig In. Уменьшается урон входящий в щит на 50%. Круговая оборона. Пропадает возможность двигаться и атаковать. Только аггро. Одноцелевую. Дальнию. Без Cooldown В tab вернуть аналог Mark. No buff/defuff. Только аггро. Одноцелевую. Большой радиус. Без отката
@asterdahl Played over the weekend with the new changes. Love the changes to dig in. Very responsive, very fast. Feels much cleaner to use. Thank you for a few more of the bug fixes.
The general rebalance of stats/critter hp dropping by 30% feels pretty darn good. Even needing to get more stats, they feel more linear, rather than a binary on/off switch.
At-Will damage improvements feel great. I don't feel like I'm using wet paper when I right/left click things now. The encounters/dailies still feel powerful, but not the only way for me to do damage.
The damage resistance change was also a good/clean idea. Negation (even though the tooltip is still bugged) feels useful now. I will say, general feedback on the Negation enchant: The 10 stack drop of negation for a 5% heal is sub-optimal. It resets all your stacks, making it worse for a tank. I'd rather that feature not to exist at all. Keep the 10 stacks up, or give it a different effect if you're dropping them. You only get the 10 stacks on for about a second, then they're wiped and you lose all that DR you've built up. Makes your damage reduction difficult to predict and unstable for your healers. Either keep it constant and remove the 5% heal completely (I can't even tell I've been healed at all with that), bump up the heal, give it another effect when it expires, or do something like only removing half the stacks for a 3% heal so you don't lose 20% DR instantly. Right now, it rubber bands my DR, and doesn't feel good to tank or get heals during that window.
I know Fighter feedback is all over the place, but at least from my perspective, the changes are moving in a positive direction. We're getting there.
I don't know why only in NWO players have phobia of spending additional few minutes or some time more in dungeon? For example in other games if your team is not bis then "okey we still can do it" while in NWO it is always "OMG I am leaving this HAMSTER".
Always the game was dynamic. always ran. What in m2, that in m6, that in m15. individual visits are not even measured in minutes; seconds are important there. Now any class may not be a burden in dungeon with a minimum of clothing. (Except for the barbarian, they are useless) by going to the support build. But they usually do not consider it necessary to be useful to the group, preferring to cause damage. For what they do not like all the kids at once.
Moreover old mark from tab was absolutely useless in PvP exactly for tanking while new [Dig in] lets you at least to have immunity to control and damage in some dangerous moments (for example when TR use his classical combo [Courage breaker]+[Smoke bomb]).
Ordinary shield can not cope with this? Then to help the Determination, Phalanx. Is PvP in the game? There is not even the slightest chance to pull out something good. it is boring. The last interesting PvP ended when Gontlgrim was removed. Event Gontlgrim, and not the current version of it, which is 1/5 of the entire event, and that is not mandatory.
So I agree that [Dig in] can be discussinal but old tab mark was not more useful as battle mechanic
The old mark is More useful - yes. was less functional - yes. "digging" does not make sense as long as there is a shield.
Rus:
Всегда игра была динамичной. всегда бежали.Что в м2, что в м6, что в м15. отдельные заходы замеряются даже не минутами- там важны секунды. Сейчас любой класс может не быть обузой в данжеоне при минимуме одетости. (Кроме варваром, они бесполезны), перейдя в билд саппорта. Но они как правило не считают нужным быть полезным группе, предпочитая наносить урон. За что не любят всех малышей сразу.
Обычный щит с этим не справляется? Тогда в помощь Determination, Phalanx. А ПвП есть в игре? Там нет даже малейшего шанса вытащить , чтото- то хорошее. такое оно- скучное. Последний интересный ПвП закончился когда убрали Гонтлгрим. Событие Гонтлгрим, а не нынешняя его версия, являющаяся 1/5 всего события, и то не обязательной.
Старая отметка Более полезен - да. был менее функционален - да. "окопать" не имеет смысла пока есть щит.
The following skills have an error in the magnitude/buffs shown in the tooltip: -Heavy slash shows 100 of magnitude and actually makes 80 of magnitude -Shockwave shows 680 of magnitude and actually makes 1100 of magnitude -Commander's strike added effect shows 5% more damage and actually make 10% more damage
Please make us a skill that is actually worth using. Dig In is horrible.
At-Wills :
3 out for 4 At-Will powers are awesome as is. In testing I have been using Cleave/Threatening Rush for aoe fights, and Brazen Slash/Threatening Rush for boss fights. Reworked Tide of Iron is maybe useable for toons not at endgame ilvl like mine.
Encounters :
Vanguard encounters needs a lot of tweaking. The latest patch added Tremor to our list, and its an instant favorite of mine. This is my verdic of current encounter selection :
-Shield Slam : This skill is just plain bad. Its back in my rotation after the removal of Tremor. Tremor should be an universal skill.
-Kneebreaker : I never liked to use kneebreaker in my tank builds, but it did serve well as a Crushing Pin applier. I would love if Dreadnaughts Commander's Strike took its place as an universal Fighter skill.
/Bull Charge : Okish universal skill, feat for added dmg to Cleave is nice in my current rotation
+Tremor : No longer in Vanguard selection. Should be.
+Anvil of Doom : Awesome singletarget skill. Also a keeper.
-Enforced Threat : Got a little better with +aggro from at-will feat. Should be replaced with Into the Fray from Dreadnaught path. Feat should be as is for Into the Fray.
-Knights Challenge : Still gets cancelled by block animation. Still useless.
+Linebreaker : Very good opener. This is the reason we dont need Bull Charge.
-Iron Warrior : Redundant with the new Combat Balance feat
-Knights Valor : Useless in combat. Should be a radius skill including all allies. Bring back the old version or remake plz.
Daily powers :
+Earthshaker : Looks cool, does damage. Keeper.
+Second Wind : Awesome. The +% HP makes my tenebrous enchantments shine. Maybe make Vanguard Exclusive ?
/Determination : Good stuff for low dmg toons. Keep as is.
+Bladed Rampart : Strong daily for the weaker toons in multimob fights. Keeper.
+Phalanx : Lifesaver in AOE/DOT heavy boss fights. Keep as is.
Class Features :
Out of the 8 class features, I can only find 3 that can be considered useable; Greater Endurance, Shield Talent and Anvil of Challenge. All the others can be deleted imho. @rjc9000 s post with the idea of Extra Attack feat would bring atleast 1 additional good feat to the Vanguard.
Feats :
FEATS SHOULD NOT TIE TO SPESIFIC SKILLS, but if you have to, please consifer this:
/Staying Power : Nice for tanks having aggro issues. Should be a feat for Into the Fray instead of Enforce Threat -Shield Thrower: I see no reason to use Shield Throw when we have TRush and Linebreaker. May be nice for roleplayers wanting to be superheroes. +Cleaving Bull : The only reason to use Charging Bull in rotation. Added dmg to Cleave = more aggro in multimob fights. +/- Rising Tide : Should ofcourse be "causing you to deal additional damage when your attack hits A SINGLE ENEMY", not "multiple" -Critical Deflection : Crit needed for LOMM : 57k, Deflect needed for LOMM : 62k. You want us to stack more crit than we need for a chance of regenerating some stamina if we dont block ? I dont get it at all... +Combat Balance : I like the idea of this feat, I just hope that the other classes dont have any skills that will offset our balanced defensive stats. -Perfect Block: Needs rework. +Sharpened Senses: Makes Bladed Rampart even gooder for the weaker toons. -Dig In feats : No need for these as Dig In is still a no-go.
Something called Knight’s Defence keeps ticking for 1 or 2 damage on my Fighter (and Barbarian). No idea what it is, but it can shut down a Barkshield enchant. (Yes it’s useless, but I’m not worried about the utility of the enchant.)
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I only had about an hour to play last night, so I ran a master expedition solo as Vanguard. I have to echo what others have said regarding dig-in vs. standard shift shield, they are so very similar. Just about every time I accidentally activated shield instead of dig-in, or vise versa. Maybe it was just that I had a long day and I was tired mentally, but others have said the same thing so maybe that wasn't the only reason.
Also, dig-in still seems slow to activate, is that just that the animation is slow or does it actually take a second to kick in while your character is slowly kneeling down?
As for the shield turning red during dig-in, I found it a little difficult to see when I was surrounded by enemies and they were splashing red all over the ground as well. When I was in one of those bubbles in the expedition the colors are all washed out, so of course I could never see it turn red.
Hey everyone! During our livestream today some of you were asking if I was still alive due to my sluggish responses recently and I just wanted to update you all that I am still very much alive, but that I have been devoting all of the evening time I had dedicated to replying to these threads to getting everything locked down ahead of our internal gold deadline so that our QA department has sufficient time to hammer on things ahead of launch. I have been skimming through posts as much as possible and hope to square away some time soon to answer more questions.
In the meantime, I'd like to apologize for how quiet I've been and let you all know that I absolutely have been reading, will continue to read, and will make the time to respond to your feedback and questions. I won't forget about them.
@asterdahl This is my final post in the M16 Fighter feedback thread:
Please review the feedback in this thread and compare it to the Fighter in the current preview build (as of 04.04.19). Please do what you can to make Fighter the awesome class it has the potential to be with some minor tweaks before "locking it down ahead of internal gold deadline"
Elite Whaleboy
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
My testing from Preview; most is a repetition/summation of what is stated by various people in the thread.
1. Philosophy of the Fighter in Vanguard Mode is contradictory. Active threat through damage versus 2xpassive shield/dig-in (v.1 or v.2 does not matter) and immobility. My posts about the historical mobility of the Guardian Fighter (now Fighter) still applies here. Very simply put: if immobility increases, passive aggro generation and survivability (in philosophy) should increase. If mobility increases, aggro can transform to active and survivability can be more situational/positional.
2. The 'great' stat change (1000:1) will require min/maxing in a few categories for the Vanguard, but then this makes solo PvE even more difficult (or having different loadouts for Dreadnaught and Vanguard more expensive). Agreed that some setups are beyond practical reach for a tank except in extreme min/maxing. If this is the intention and direction behind the decision, count me out. The cost to min/max will be too much for me.
3. As most Fighter testers seem to have 20k+ TIL, imagine the gameplay of those not committed to the class, or just starting when they hit Undermountain or anything 'end-game.' The triple gut punch of out-statted from content for casual/semi-casual players and bugs in a setting that is 100% new (formulas, boons, etc) will result in a bad reaction. I do not think 20kers (of whom I am one) are a correct gauge for the rework of the class. If we are barely able to reconfigure and run, what will the rest do?
Visual change to Dig-in helps confirm actually being dug-in, thanks.
The counter attack would be better if it were a wide arc, similar to Cleave, since it is difficult to time it.
Also, I think Dig-in would be functionally better and different from normal Block if it afforded a short ~<1second immunity frame (subject to cooldown like counter-attack, so it would have to be used tactically), for instance to allow a swap between mobile Block and immobile Dig-in when about to get hit by a heavy boss attack (such as fbi turtle bite) or deadly aoe (such as the elol scorpions).
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @prejekpaddlefish said: > Also, I think Dig-in would be functionally better and different from normal Block if it afforded a short ~<1second immunity frame (subject to cooldown like counter-attack, so it would have to be used tactically), for instance to allow a swap between mobile Block and immobile Dig-in when about to get hit by a heavy boss attack (such as fbi turtle bite) or deadly aoe (such as the elol scorpions).
Respect. These are innovative ideas. But shift="block" and tab="super-duper block" are still redundant.
BtW, I've run elol and FBI several times on Vanguard. Scorpions and Turtle blast right through DigIn like it's paper. What's the point of a "super-duper block" that locks you in place and doesn't even block the hardest hits?
Tab should serve some entirely different and Tank-useful function... like threat generation.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
> Also, I think Dig-in would be functionally better and different from normal Block if it afforded a short ~<1second immunity frame (subject to cooldown like counter-attack, so it would have to be used tactically), for instance to allow a swap between mobile Block and immobile Dig-in when about to get hit by a heavy boss attack (such as fbi turtle bite) or deadly aoe (such as the elol scorpions).
Respect. These are innovative ideas.
But shift="block" and tab="super-duper block" are still redundant.
BtW, I've run elol and FBI several times on Vanguard. Scorpions and Turtle blast right through DigIn like it's paper.
What's the point of a "super-duper block" that locks you in place and doesn't even block the hardest hits?
Tab should serve some entirely different and Tank-useful function... like threat generation.
Is scaling still messed up when running the older dungeons?
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @manipulos said: > > @prejekpaddlefish said: > > > Also, I think Dig-in would be functionally better and different from normal Block if it afforded a short ~<1second immunity frame (subject to cooldown like counter-attack, so it would have to be used tactically), for instance to allow a swap between mobile Block and immobile Dig-in when about to get hit by a heavy boss attack (such as fbi turtle bite) or deadly aoe (such as the elol scorpions). > > > > Respect. These are innovative ideas. > > But shift="block" and tab="super-duper block" are still redundant. > > > > BtW, I've run elol and FBI several times on Vanguard. Scorpions and Turtle blast right through DigIn like it's paper. > > What's the point of a "super-duper block" that locks you in place and doesn't even block the hardest hits? > > > > Tab should serve some entirely different and Tank-useful function... like threat generation. > > Is scaling still messed up when running the older dungeons?
As of yesterday, yes some low dungeons hit was harder. Patch just happened. Will try them again and see. Patch notes would be nice.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
BtW, I've run elol and FBI several times on Vanguard. Scorpions and Turtle blast right through DigIn like it's paper.
What's the point of a "super-duper block" that locks you in place and doesn't even block the hardest hits?
That's why I thought a second or so of taking zero damage during immunity frames* when you first use Dig-in might be enough to survive single big hits if you time it well (*on a cooldown). Otherwise with DR capping the way it is, Dig-In is what? automatic death or not needed. With immunity frames it might only be 90% useless.
Tab should serve some entirely different and Tank-useful function... like threat generation.
Yes, I agree. But cannot see Dig-In being deleted and replaced now, as it is in the fighter changes dev blog. I know other people have been asking for weeks for Tab or Dig-in aggro effect, and I even suggested on page 12
Dig-in could have an aggro multiplier inversely related to how much guard there is left.
e.g. Sally and Jane are fighting an Orc. Jane has the Orc's attention. A Goblin Archer joins the fight. Jane digs in. Sally shoots the Goblin Archer, so the Goblin Archer shoots back at Sally. Orc breaks down Jane's shield to under 50%. Goblin Archer now chooses to shoot Jane.
Ok, I'm trying, but the Vanguard feats are just killing me.
First tier isn't awful, just kinda uninspiring. Spending a feat to get a ranged pull tool is meh, but tolerable, but Staying Power is literally useless outside of group content, and that's automatically discouraging, but is also the only option if you don't want to use a power that yeets your primary defensive tool in the middle of a fight.
Both third tier ones are rubbish. Don't make feats that can punish players for equipping upgrades. That's awful. Absolutely worthless. Critical Deflection giving a bonus to deflect severity for your next deflect after critting, and a bonus to crit severity for your next crit after deflecting, would be nice, flavorful, and flow very well, while also rewarding you for investing in a subpar defensive stat. Combat balance... I dunno, man. Boosted stamina regen for taking unblocked damage? Boosted damage resistance after blocking? I like the idea of feats that don't tie directly to a specific power, but tying them to stat proportions is downright punishing.
Fourth tier locks you out of using both of the dailies I most enjoy for my playstyle. Not objectively bad, but feels bad to me.
Not getting Shake It Off until level 77 leaves Tab a dead button for way too much of progression. Advise making the basic counter inherent to Dig In, with the feat either increasing its arc, its damage, or adding a knockdown to it.
Exception: Second tier is nice; gives two ways of boosting AoE that seem decently balanced against each other and don't lock you to as specific a combination of powers, for all that they don't fill a gap if you didn't slot any AoE to begin with.
In general, they don't seem to respect the order in which you get powers. Some sort of playstyle buff along with the power effect, especially for early feats, seems called for- Staying Power also causing all of your at-wills to always grant an additional 1% of your stamina would add up over time, and be thematically appropriate. Changing Shield Thrower to Aggressive Shield Tactics, giving a small, non-stacking magnitude increase to your next attack after blocking would help encourage a more aggressive, block-weaving playstyle.
Addendum: The Vanguard class features are also lackluster. Enduring Warrior might as well not exist, Vigorous Strikes is a cool idea, but undertuned, Ferocious Reaction has antisynergy with Critical Deflection, and without mob ratings posted on the map, is impossible to gauge the effectiveness of. Anvil Of Challenge would be worth slotting more often if it also reduced the cooldown of Anvil of Doom by a couple of seconds. Shield Talent needs numbers. Combat Superiority is utterly uninspiring.
Dreadnought looks and feels good, but Vanguard just feels like the unwanted child that you're not quite sure what to do with.
Post edited by fenrir4life on
3
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
Did not want to double-post. Please check it out and share your thoughts.
TLDR: 6) Conclusions Shift-Block performed less than expected (43% instead of 50% of total HP). Dig-In performed better than expected (80% instead of 75% up to ½ total HP).
7) Sources of Error/Discussion Preview Mod 16 is notorious for scaling issues. It is possible that the discrepancy between Tooltip and our test was associated with scaling.
Regardless, Shift-Block is underperforming. Dig-In appears to be working at or better then described. The controversy remains. Shift-Block does not appear to offer adequate protection from big hits. The reallocation of HP from the Shift-Block to personal HP appears to lessen it’s usefulness in mid-level boss battles. Tab-Dig-In seems redundant. It offers only marginally better protection than Shift-Block at the great cost of immobility.
I welcome constructive criticism on these test methods and conclusions. Any ideas on better ways to test the utility of our future Shift and Tab functions?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Tab-Dig-In seems redundant. It offers only marginally better protection than Shift-Block at the great cost of immobility.
I agree with that. I assume at this point is too late to change Tab mechanic, make it at least meaningful skill. You could make it time dependent like block on live now, It's not perfect solution but atleast it makes it diferent from Shift-block and in theory allow to withstand heavy hits. As I mentioned somwhere before it could be charge by normal bloks.
@asterdahl If you genuinely like the feel and function of Critical Deflection and Combat Balance, then I urge you to build in, and reflect in the tooltip, an efficacy "floor" such that neither feat can operate at below half of its maximum efficacy, no matter how far the player's stats deviate from the 'ideal' stipulated in the feat.
I also urge you to doublecheck that normal damage resistance from Defense or from powers, are applying properly to Blocked damage(obviously, Combat Balance's resistance isn't supposed to, but some testing has indicated that even defense from gear is not applying to block HP).
@asterdahl If you genuinely like the feel and function of Critical Deflection and Combat Balance, then I urge you to build in, and reflect in the tooltip, an efficacy "floor" such that neither feat can operate at below half of its maximum efficacy, no matter how far the player's stats deviate from the 'ideal' stipulated in the feat.
I also urge you to doublecheck that normal damage resistance from Defense or from powers, are applying properly to Blocked damage(obviously, Combat Balance's resistance isn't supposed to, but some testing has indicated that even defense from gear is not applying to block HP).
Yup - we are not tanks any more just bigger sacks of HP..... with still broken feats and well not sastysfying Tab mechanics, and few minor issues..... I was about to put my final feedback but will wait till saturday, I doubt anything will change as its too late for any major changes and @asterdahl silence so... cant wait to see a after release hamster storm
I returned to my Fighter today and I think I have the hang of the Dreadnought now.
The character is now level 76 and 13303 iL, so badly equipped with minimal resources. So progress is naturally harder than with a higher geared toon, but that is now the only difference I am seeing.
Success came as I learnt how to manage Vengeance and use it to my advantage by Seething before a fight to keep the damage buff available, because with such a weak character that extra 10% makes a big difference to performance.
As I have been playing I have been reflecting on the concerns of the community here and trying to think of some way to make the Tab function of the Vanguard more interesting.
Barbarians: Tab gives them a 360 defense, CC immunity, faster attacks and freedom to act as they like, but only affects them. Paladins: Tab gives them 360 defense with 50% DR, modifies their shift shield, CC immunity, doubles aura effects and gives them freedom to move. (Paladins have a feat choice that ups the DR to 75% and lowers the cost or grants more threat but no longer blocks attacks). Fighters: Tab needs to do something different to the other 2, but not lock the fighter down into one place.
Suggestion - modify the Vengeance mechanic to be Courage for Vanguards. The Vanguards lead from the front and inspire their allies with their courage.
Courage is gained by blocking attacks as per Vengeance and you can "Rally" to sacrifice Stamina for Courage.
When you press Tab you use Courage.
Courage should give you 75% DR and CC immunity, and allow you to move and provide some benefit to allies (eg a magnitude 50 shield that refreshes every second while Leadership is active).
This gives a consistent mechanic to Fighters (Vengeance/Courage builds the same way but has different applications), is thematic to the ideas of Fighters and can be tuned to address the wishes of the community (except for applying marks, no marks, seriously let it go) through feats or the benefit it provides.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Only personal opinion and feelings here, sorry in advance if someone disagre...
I lost hope in Tank build for fighter before lanch sorry guys, i belive will take more time to fix/change it, at least the dps patch is fun...
For me the main weapon for a Guardian Fighter was always his SHIELD not the main hand, he should be build around the shield ability, Dreadnoght has this vibe, hes uses his shiled to build more dmg, really nice... Vanguard dont, cant find a better way to say that just dont, looks like the main issue here is that the developers think the opposite and dont want the Shilded warrior to use he's shield so much, you see it could build small temp HP, reflect dmg with increased agro, could even build a rage charge to give control imunity and increased def (or temp hp) like barbarians, but we got the "dig in" move, tried the new feature to do dmg after the hit and it may be fun solo but not usefull when youre surrounded by heavy hitting mobs, and for solo DPS felt better...
Even the best heal/stamina recover ability got locked on DPS patch, "Into the fray" when feated is an amazing skill, heals, build rage and recover stamina) could be and universal skill haeling an recovering stamina, and for tank could give extra agro generation instead of rage for example...
Anyway there's a lot of diferent and good ideas for a new dig or dig replacement on this forum tread already, but i believe there's no time for implement before launch due bug hunt, maybe in a later patch but i really lost my hope on a better dig in or better tankability before next mod...
Funny thing is that 2 weeks ago i was trying to shering a player that was pessimist and said something like "i belive it will be up on time" and "now i'm trully happy that i ended saying "i hope that next weeks make you think more like me and not the opposite"...
For the Devs God Luck on game breaking Bugs Hunt and dont let the ideas here to be forgotten after launch to work on console build only.
For the other shiled users, stay steady dont give up, persistence and time can "sometimes" solve heavy issues...
i did some runs in preview... Maybe I missed some note on patches,did the damage was reduced dramatically for all classes?i remember saying an adjustment to att wills/encounters/dailies ratio.
Anyway since my last visit,my damage was reduced by 400%,or to be more precise It took me 4x the time to do the content ,as I was used to in previous patches.half of it is caused by the companion nerf,but the other I have no explanation. Our anvil used to be 1000 magnitude is 680 now?idk Anyway current state vangard Gf does too little damage.
Dig In animation still is unresponsible.it is slow.When you kneel ,you are for 0,5 sec + totally vulnerable. Dig In should interupt any and all powers. It is one thing to test with out enemies in a controlled environment ,and another to activate Dig In while surrounded by hard hitting enemies. FrontLine Surge should have its prone effect removed.It is useless now for pve,and for pvp its prone was removed mods ago The feats do not offer variety,the contrary if you take one ,they lock you into further selection of powers encounters,att wills and gameplay. example the ToI feat, "hit multiple enemies".So you have to use cleave.So if you use Tide of iron,you are locked to use Cleave and not any other att will. 2 Minutes hard cap in determination use is ridicoulous
Dreadnaught got all the love,even tanking feats/powers while it should never had to,it took hard stats,while poor Vanguard took a damage decrease,and an hp increase but it was ofset ny stamina hp nerf. ITF should never been to dreadnaught.
VanGuard in its current state is slow,sluggish,with poor selection of feats,does no damage,gets not defense bonuses.I think most Gf tanks will be at launch.
Maybe I missed some note on patches,did the damage was reduced dramatically for all classes?i remember saying an adjustment to att wills/encounters/dailies ratio.
Anyway since my last visit,my damage was reduced by 400%,or to be more precise It took me 4x the time to do the content ,as I was used to in previous patches.half of it is caused by the companion nerf,but the other I have no explanation. Our anvil used to be 1000 magnitude is 680 now?idk Anyway current state vangard Gf does too little damage.
Yeah, pretty much.
In addition to making striker companions as bad as they have always been, the damage of most encounters was reduced by approximately 1/3rd (citing Anvil: 680/1000 = 0.68, or a 32% reduction).
In "exchange", enemy HP was reduced by some amount that I couldn't notice (because our stats were halved) and our multi target At-wills (ex: Cleave and Reave) were buffed from things like 15 magnitude to ... 25 magnitude.
Sure, it's a a 66% increase, but I think that says more about the previous base damage than it does the "buffs".
Latest Update: Bugs: Seethe will drain ~5 stamina but continue to generate Vengeance despite the Stamina drain "lock".
Heavy Slash still says it is a magnitude 100 attack but is still an 80 magnitude attack. Seeing as 80 seems to be the "correct" adjusted damage, please fix the tooltip of the power accordingly.
Commander's Strike still places a 10% damage increasing debuff rather than 5% as stated in tooltip. If the power is supposed to be that way, update the tooltip to match, or make CStrike match the stated 5% on tooltip.
Into the Fray still grants its ridiculous bonus to Action Point gain.
Weight of Vengeance does not proc if you feat Bloody Reprise.
Landwaster refuses to work unless you feat Bloody Reprise.
Feedback: I'm impressed at the updates on the class. I and many others thought the class would go live as according to the 4/5/2019 preview update, but seems as if there's some last week magic still at work. The following are my initial thoughts:
Momentum: It works, but having to run around to get the bonus Bull Charge damage is silly. Either make the bonus Bull Charge damage activate without running around, or add in an additional effect after your charge (such as 5% bonus damage for 5 seconds).
Combat Superiority: It's great! It doesn't need any adjusting.
It gives a damage bonus encourages an actual rotation (Encounter -> At-will -> insert any "action prompt" feats that want you to mix your At-wills" like Heavy Slash -> Encounter -> Repeat).
Ricochet:
-The description needs to be reworded to be less confusing, as it might be confusing to figure out whether the "(x)%" less relative to the first hit, or to each subsequent hit. I think it would be easier to say the shield can hit a total of 4 enemies, with the second hit dealing 250 magnitude, 3rd dealing 150 magnitude, and fourth dealing 100 magnitude. If you divide every hit by 1.0425 (17 STR * 0.025% = 4.25% damage bonus), you get base damage values of 350, 250, 150, and 100 magnitude respectively.
-While the feat is pretty hilarious to watch, the feat doesn't make sense in that slot of the DPS spec. In Tier 2, both options are dedicated to AoE damage, which means that players will effectively have a "wasted" feat in most boss fights.
Here are my suggestions to Ricochet: -The feat is merged with Shieldthrower in the Vanguard tree, making Shield Throw serve as a ranged Enforced Threat (hits multiple targets, no longer stuns but generates bonus threat on targets hit). The feat could also be interesting if the stun was kept in as a Vanguard exclusive feat, as stunning multiple targets could make Shield Throw as a tool to use to engage safely/get breathing room. - After merging Ricochet with Shieldthrower, move Weight of Vengeance replaces the now empty slot in the Tier 2 of the DPS path.
Crushing Blows: While the feat works, the visual effect of the rocks breaking from the ground is not a very "strong" indicator of the feat working. I initially didn't notice the feat working until I looked into the combat log.
Rolling Hatred: I think the effect should just be whenever you score a Critical hit, not requiring a Vengeance threshold.
I can see where the design comes from, where you'd combine with Bloody Reprise to ensure you stay above 50% stamina (great for a basic "hit enemies harder" build that doesn't require absorbing damage with shield). However, limiting it to 50% or above doesn't really help for the build that wants to avoid using shield/Seethe.
Heated and Steady Vengeance: Both of these class features are lackluster, I'd suggest combining both into one consolidated "get and keep Vengeance easier". For the empty class feature slot, I'd hope for another offensive class feature, as most of the options available are rather lacking.
Comments
> "Dig in" is still useless ,despite it is more reactive and no more bugs.
> We have allready a block mecanism why u overload this class with another one?
> U HAVE TO REMOVE "DIG IN" SYSTEM AND FIND SOMETHING AS USEFULL FOR TAB AS OLD MARK SYSTEM
>
> A french dwarf.
@asterdahl , you have our respect. You are a professional and worked very hard on Mod16.
But it's time to "cut your losses". Dig In was a good idea, but it does not fit the needs of your new Fighter class.
You convinced us, via the "Jane Equation" that threat is active, not passive.
We must hit and hurt to earn aggro.
We are fine with that.
But Dig-In contradicts that philosophy.
You demand active tanking. Okay. We can adapt to that.
Yet you have given a PASSIVE tab function that is reduntant in function to the Shift function.
This is a direct contradiction.
Do not despair, Asterdahl.
The solution is simple.
One word.
"Mark".
No buff/defuff.
Just "Mark".
Change Tab to a threat-building Mark (sans all debuffs).
That's it.
That's all you need to do to end Fighter aggro concerns.
TLDR
Stop "Digging in" on the current tab. Let it go.
Take the better/easier path.
Tab=threat multiplier
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
-----
1. The same classes.
At the moment on the main server of the game. Paladins and tanks perform similar roles in different ways.
Paladins:
Survival is due to temporary health and shields.
The survival rate of the group is due to the increased resistance of the group (% parameters). Treatment group.
Agro due to several strong skills giving an absolute degree of agro
Tanks:
Survival at the expense of hands, defense, movement.
Group Survival - Due to the transfer of damage from the group to themselves (Knightly Valor)
Agro due to the gradual increase in the degree of agro.
At the moment on the test, these are the same classes. The differences are minimal. Same survival mechanics. (Tab, Shift). You returned the old version of the shield, it is not worse than the current one. The same mechanics agro. By and large, everything is the same, damage numbers and image / skill names are not so important.
Why 2 identical classes?
------
2. Shield / Dig-In.
It has become more convenient and practical, faster, better.
Now Dig-In is the last chance to survive. (may be useful a couple of times a week).
As a result, we have 2 identical skills. what for?
My proposal to combine both skills:
Shift remains the same up to 25%. When endurance has dropped to 25% - is replaced by "Dig-In". (The last chance to survive is to go on the defensive). At the same time: damage to the shield is reduced by 50%. become circular protection. the ability to move and attack is lost.
Tab-return analog Mark. Far. Single Purpose. without cooldown. Agro.without increasing damage.
-----
3. Skills (feat):
Yes, you wanted to simplify. overdo.
And they are generally needed in this version?
No choice. There is an illusion of choice.
There is no diversity. there are mandatory.
As mentioned above. M15-skills - dismantled. In parts offered as an Encounter-skill + Feat.
Modify.
a)
Enhance Encounter (At-Will, Daily, Class Feature) OR strengthen the character (the same bonus to health from the main characteristics- endurance)
b)
Return recycled branches. In the form of a new choice. one or two.
Example: On the example of "knightly valor"
There are 2 branches. In each of the branches on 5 Feat. also "one or the second".
1. Maximum survival.
Here she will give invulnerability to herself + 1 in the group (By analogy with the old "jubilation" of a cleric)
2. Maximum group protection.
here it will be analogous as in m15.
What will it give? This will give a choice. Will give the ability to maneuver skills and parameters.
Does this make it harder for you to work? of course. But is it so strong? Variability will decrease many times than now. And will not look defective.
Separately, about the new "Knightly valor." She is raw. In this form, it is not suitable for use. At a minimum, the target of defense must choose a tank, and not by chance.
Rus:
1. Одинаковые классы.
НА данный момент на основном сервере игры. Паладины и танки выполняют похожие роли по разному.
Паладины:
Выживаемость своя- за счёт временных здоровья и щитов.
Выживаемость группы- за счёт увеличения сопротивляемости группы (параметров %). Лечения группы.
Агро- за счёт нескольких сильных умений дающих абсолютную степень агро
Танки:
Выживаемость- за счёт рук, обороны, движения.
Выживаемость группы- За счёт переноса урона с группы на себя (Доблесть Рыцарская)
Агро- за счёт постепенного увеличения степени агро.
На данный момент на тестовом, это одинаковые классы. Различия минимальны. Одинаковая механика выживания. (Таб, Шифт). вы вернули старую версию щита- она не хуже нынешней. Одинаковая механика агро. По большому счёту- одинаковое всё, цифры урона и картинки/названия умений не столь важны.
Зачем 2 одинаковых класса?
2. Щит/ Dig-In.
Оно стало удобнее и практичнее, быстрее, лучше.
Сейчас Dig-In - умение последнего шанса выжить. ( может пригодится пару раз в неделю).
В итоге мы имеем 2 одинаковых умения. зачем?
Моё предложение объединить оба умения:
Шифт- остаётся прежним до 25%. Когда выносливость упала до 25%- заменяется на "Dig-In". (Последний шанс выжить - уйти в глухую оборону). При этом: уменьшается входящий в щит урон на 50%. становиться круговая защита. пропадает возможность двигаться и атаковать.
Таб- вернуть аналог Mark. Дальняя. Одноцелевая. без кулдауна. Агро.
3. Навыки (Feat):
Да, вы хотели упростить. перестарались.
А они вообще нужны в таком варианте?
Нет выбора. Есть иллюзия выбора.
Нет разнообразия. есть обязательные.
Как было сказано выше. м15-умения - разобрали. По частям предложили как Encounter-умение +Feat.
Доработайте.
а)
усиление Encounter (At-Will, Daily, Class Feature) или усиление самого персонажа (тот же бонус к здоровью от основной характеристики- выносливости)
б)
Верните переработанные ветки. В виде нового выбора. одно или второе.
Пример: На примере "рыцарской доблести"
Есть 2 ветки
1. Максимальная выживаемость.
Тут она будет давать неуязвимость себе+ 1 в группе (По аналогии со старым "ликование" клирика)
2. максимальная защита группы. В каждой из веток по 5 Feat. также "одно или второе".
тут она будет аналогом как в м15.
Что это даст? Это даст выбор. Даст возможность манёвра умениями и параметрами.
Усложнит ли это для вас работу? конечно. Но настолько сильно ли? Вариативность уменьшится в разы,чем сейчас. И не будет выглядеть ущербно.
Отдельно про новую "Рыцарская доблесть". Она сырая. В данном виде она не пригодна к использоаванию. Как минимум цель защиты должен выбирать танк, а не случайно.
1. Same classes
It turns out now there will be 2 identical classes. Paladin tank and tank.
Now on the basis of the server paladin and tank have different game mechanics. They have one goal, but different paths of achievement.
Paladin:
Survival of its own. Due to temporary health and shields.
Group protection. Increased group resistance (% of parameters) + small treatment
Aggro. Several skills generating a large degree of aggro on mobs.
Tank:
Survival own: hands, movement, defense.
Protection of the group: due to interception of damage from the group to itself. (knightly valor)
Aggro. Gradual increase in the degree of aggro due to damage.
Different mechanics, different styles of games. Everything is different.
On the test, both classes become the same. Equal Shield Mechanics and Dig In. Equal skill mechanics (damage numbers, pictures, animation don't matter - achieving the same goals as the main targets)
Why do we need 2 of the same class?
2. Dig In and Shield.
The new version of Dig In has become more convenient, playable, faster, better.
But still remains superfluous. The ability to survive the last chance (useful a couple of times a week)
we have two identical skills. What for?
My suggestion is to save Dig In exactly as the last chance to survive.
Change the shield. Up to 25% work as now. When the remaining 25% - become Dig In. The damage entering the shield is reduced by 50%. Circular defense. The ability to move and attack disappears.
Only aggro. Single-purpose Far. Without cooldown
In the tab, return the analog Mark. No buff / defuff. Only aggro. Single-purpose. Far. Without cooldown
Rus:
1. Одинаковые классы
Получается сейчас будет 2 одинаковых класса. Паладин-танк и танк.
Сейчас на основ сервере паладин и танк имеют разную механику игры. Имеют одну цель, но разные пути достижения.
Паладин:
Выживаемость своя. За счёт временных здоровья и щитов.
Защита группы. Повышение сопротивляемости группы(%параметров)+ небольшое лечение
Аггро.Несколько умений генерирующих большую степень аггро на мобов.
Танк:
Выживаемость своя: руки, движение, оборона.
Защита группы:за счёт перехвата урона с группы на себя. (рыцарская доблесть)
Аггро.Постепенное повышение степени аггро за счёт нанесения урона.
Разные механики, разные стили игры.Всё разное.
На тестовом оба класса становятся одинаковыми. Одинаковая механика щита и Dig In. Одинаковая механика умений (Цифры урона, картинки, анимация не имеют значения – достижение основных целей одинакого)
Зачем нужны 2 одинаковых класса?
2. Dig In и щит.
Новая версия Dig In стал более удобным, играбельным,, быстрым, лучше.
Но всё равно остаётся лишним. Умение последнего шанса выжить (пригодится пару раз в неделю)
мы имеем два одинаковых умения. Зачем?
Моё предложение, чтобы сохранить Dig In именно как последний шанс выжить.
Изменить щит. До 25% рабоатет как и сейчас. Когда остаётся 25%- становиться Dig In. Уменьшается урон входящий в щит на 50%. Круговая оборона. Пропадает возможность двигаться и атаковать.
Только аггро. Одноцелевую. Дальнию. Без Cooldown
В tab вернуть аналог Mark. No buff/defuff. Только аггро. Одноцелевую. Большой радиус. Без отката
@asterdahl
Played over the weekend with the new changes. Love the changes to dig in. Very responsive, very fast. Feels much cleaner to use. Thank you for a few more of the bug fixes.
The general rebalance of stats/critter hp dropping by 30% feels pretty darn good. Even needing to get more stats, they feel more linear, rather than a binary on/off switch.
At-Will damage improvements feel great. I don't feel like I'm using wet paper when I right/left click things now. The encounters/dailies still feel powerful, but not the only way for me to do damage.
The damage resistance change was also a good/clean idea. Negation (even though the tooltip is still bugged) feels useful now. I will say, general feedback on the Negation enchant: The 10 stack drop of negation for a 5% heal is sub-optimal. It resets all your stacks, making it worse for a tank. I'd rather that feature not to exist at all. Keep the 10 stacks up, or give it a different effect if you're dropping them. You only get the 10 stacks on for about a second, then they're wiped and you lose all that DR you've built up. Makes your damage reduction difficult to predict and unstable for your healers. Either keep it constant and remove the 5% heal completely (I can't even tell I've been healed at all with that), bump up the heal, give it another effect when it expires, or do something like only removing half the stacks for a 3% heal so you don't lose 20% DR instantly. Right now, it rubber bands my DR, and doesn't feel good to tank or get heals during that window.
I know Fighter feedback is all over the place, but at least from my perspective, the changes are moving in a positive direction. We're getting there.
Ordinary shield can not cope with this? Then to help the Determination, Phalanx.
Is PvP in the game? There is not even the slightest chance to pull out something good. it is boring. The last interesting PvP ended when Gontlgrim was removed. Event Gontlgrim, and not the current version of it, which is 1/5 of the entire event, and that is not mandatory.
The old mark is More useful - yes. was less functional - yes. "digging" does not make sense as long as there is a shield.
Rus:
Обычный щит с этим не справляется? Тогда в помощь Determination, Phalanx.
А ПвП есть в игре? Там нет даже малейшего шанса вытащить , чтото- то хорошее. такое оно- скучное. Последний интересный ПвП закончился когда убрали Гонтлгрим. Событие Гонтлгрим, а не нынешняя его версия, являющаяся 1/5 всего события, и то не обязательной.
Старая отметка Более полезен - да. был менее функционален - да. "окопать" не имеет смысла пока есть щит.
-Heavy slash shows 100 of magnitude and actually makes 80 of magnitude
-Shockwave shows 680 of magnitude and actually makes 1100 of magnitude
-Commander's strike added effect shows 5% more damage and actually make 10% more damage
Tab-mechaninc :
Please make us a skill that is actually worth using. Dig In is horrible.
At-Wills :
3 out for 4 At-Will powers are awesome as is. In testing I have been using Cleave/Threatening Rush for aoe fights, and Brazen Slash/Threatening Rush for boss fights.
Reworked Tide of Iron is maybe useable for toons not at endgame ilvl like mine.
Encounters :
Vanguard encounters needs a lot of tweaking.
The latest patch added Tremor to our list, and its an instant favorite of mine.This is my verdic of current encounter selection :-Shield Slam : This skill is just plain bad. Its back in my rotation after the removal of Tremor. Tremor should be an universal skill.
-Kneebreaker : I never liked to use kneebreaker in my tank builds, but it did serve well as a Crushing Pin applier. I would love if Dreadnaughts Commander's Strike took its place as an universal Fighter skill.
/Bull Charge : Okish universal skill, feat for added dmg to Cleave is nice in my current rotation
-Shield Throw: Meh ranged skill. TRush and Linebreaker fills ranged needs
+Tremor : No longer in Vanguard selection. Should be.
+Anvil of Doom : Awesome singletarget skill. Also a keeper.
-Enforced Threat : Got a little better with +aggro from at-will feat. Should be replaced with Into the Fray from Dreadnaught path. Feat should be as is for Into the Fray.
-Knights Challenge : Still gets cancelled by block animation. Still useless.
+Linebreaker : Very good opener. This is the reason we dont need Bull Charge.
-Iron Warrior : Redundant with the new Combat Balance feat
-Knights Valor : Useless in combat. Should be a radius skill including all allies. Bring back the old version or remake plz.
Daily powers :
+Earthshaker : Looks cool, does damage. Keeper.
+Second Wind : Awesome. The +% HP makes my tenebrous enchantments shine. Maybe make Vanguard Exclusive ?
/Determination : Good stuff for low dmg toons. Keep as is.
+Bladed Rampart : Strong daily for the weaker toons in multimob fights. Keeper.
+Phalanx : Lifesaver in AOE/DOT heavy boss fights. Keep as is.
Class Features :
Out of the 8 class features, I can only find 3 that can be considered useable; Greater Endurance, Shield Talent and Anvil of Challenge. All the others can be deleted imho. @rjc9000 s post with the idea of Extra Attack feat would bring atleast 1 additional good feat to the Vanguard.
Feats :
FEATS SHOULD NOT TIE TO SPESIFIC SKILLS, but if you have to, please consifer this:
/Staying Power : Nice for tanks having aggro issues. Should be a feat for Into the Fray instead of Enforce Threat
-Shield Thrower: I see no reason to use Shield Throw when we have TRush and Linebreaker. May be nice for roleplayers wanting to be superheroes.
+Cleaving Bull : The only reason to use Charging Bull in rotation. Added dmg to Cleave = more aggro in multimob fights.
+/- Rising Tide : Should ofcourse be "causing you to deal additional damage when your attack hits A SINGLE ENEMY", not "multiple"
-Critical Deflection : Crit needed for LOMM : 57k, Deflect needed for LOMM : 62k. You want us to stack more crit than we need for a chance of regenerating some stamina if we dont block ? I dont get it at all...
+Combat Balance : I like the idea of this feat, I just hope that the other classes dont have any skills that will offset our balanced defensive stats.
-Perfect Block: Needs rework.
+Sharpened Senses: Makes Bladed Rampart even gooder for the weaker toons.
-Dig In feats : No need for these as Dig In is still a no-go.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Also, dig-in still seems slow to activate, is that just that the animation is slow or does it actually take a second to kick in while your character is slowly kneeling down?
As for the shield turning red during dig-in, I found it a little difficult to see when I was surrounded by enemies and they were splashing red all over the ground as well. When I was in one of those bubbles in the expedition the colors are all washed out, so of course I could never see it turn red.
In the meantime, I'd like to apologize for how quiet I've been and let you all know that I absolutely have been reading, will continue to read, and will make the time to respond to your feedback and questions. I won't forget about them.
Please review the feedback in this thread and compare it to the Fighter in the current preview build (as of 04.04.19). Please do what you can to make Fighter the awesome class it has the potential to be with some minor tweaks before "locking it down ahead of internal gold deadline"
1. Philosophy of the Fighter in Vanguard Mode is contradictory. Active threat through damage versus 2xpassive shield/dig-in (v.1 or v.2 does not matter) and immobility. My posts about the historical mobility of the Guardian Fighter (now Fighter) still applies here. Very simply put: if immobility increases, passive aggro generation and survivability (in philosophy) should increase. If mobility increases, aggro can transform to active and survivability can be more situational/positional.
2. The 'great' stat change (1000:1) will require min/maxing in a few categories for the Vanguard, but then this makes solo PvE even more difficult (or having different loadouts for Dreadnaught and Vanguard more expensive). Agreed that some setups are beyond practical reach for a tank except in extreme min/maxing. If this is the intention and direction behind the decision, count me out. The cost to min/max will be too much for me.
3. As most Fighter testers seem to have 20k+ TIL, imagine the gameplay of those not committed to the class, or just starting when they hit Undermountain or anything 'end-game.' The triple gut punch of out-statted from content for casual/semi-casual players and bugs in a setting that is 100% new (formulas, boons, etc) will result in a bad reaction. I do not think 20kers (of whom I am one) are a correct gauge for the rework of the class. If we are barely able to reconfigure and run, what will the rest do?
I thank you for your efforts and responses.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
The counter attack would be better if it were a wide arc, similar to Cleave, since it is difficult to time it.
Also, I think Dig-in would be functionally better and different from normal Block if it afforded a short ~<1second immunity frame (subject to cooldown like counter-attack, so it would have to be used tactically), for instance to allow a swap between mobile Block and immobile Dig-in when about to get hit by a heavy boss attack (such as fbi turtle bite) or deadly aoe (such as the elol scorpions).
> Also, I think Dig-in would be functionally better and different from normal Block if it afforded a short ~<1second immunity frame (subject to cooldown like counter-attack, so it would have to be used tactically), for instance to allow a swap between mobile Block and immobile Dig-in when about to get hit by a heavy boss attack (such as fbi turtle bite) or deadly aoe (such as the elol scorpions).
Respect. These are innovative ideas.
But shift="block" and tab="super-duper block" are still redundant.
BtW, I've run elol and FBI several times on Vanguard. Scorpions and Turtle blast right through DigIn like it's paper.
What's the point of a "super-duper block" that locks you in place and doesn't even block the hardest hits?
Tab should serve some entirely different and Tank-useful function... like threat generation.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
> > @prejekpaddlefish said:
>
> > Also, I think Dig-in would be functionally better and different from normal Block if it afforded a short ~<1second immunity frame (subject to cooldown like counter-attack, so it would have to be used tactically), for instance to allow a swap between mobile Block and immobile Dig-in when about to get hit by a heavy boss attack (such as fbi turtle bite) or deadly aoe (such as the elol scorpions).
>
>
>
> Respect. These are innovative ideas.
>
> But shift="block" and tab="super-duper block" are still redundant.
>
>
>
> BtW, I've run elol and FBI several times on Vanguard. Scorpions and Turtle blast right through DigIn like it's paper.
>
> What's the point of a "super-duper block" that locks you in place and doesn't even block the hardest hits?
>
>
>
> Tab should serve some entirely different and Tank-useful function... like threat generation.
>
> Is scaling still messed up when running the older dungeons?
As of yesterday, yes some low dungeons hit was harder.
Patch just happened. Will try them again and see.
Patch notes would be nice.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Yes, I agree. But cannot see Dig-In being deleted and replaced now, as it is in the fighter changes dev blog.
I know other people have been asking for weeks for Tab or Dig-in aggro effect, and I even suggested on page 12 and I tried on page 10 too:
So far I have found more bugs with scaling than I have in the past with this patch...
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
First tier isn't awful, just kinda uninspiring. Spending a feat to get a ranged pull tool is meh, but tolerable, but Staying Power is literally useless outside of group content, and that's automatically discouraging, but is also the only option if you don't want to use a power that yeets your primary defensive tool in the middle of a fight.
Both third tier ones are rubbish. Don't make feats that can punish players for equipping upgrades. That's awful. Absolutely worthless.
Critical Deflection giving a bonus to deflect severity for your next deflect after critting, and a bonus to crit severity for your next crit after deflecting, would be nice, flavorful, and flow very well, while also rewarding you for investing in a subpar defensive stat. Combat balance... I dunno, man. Boosted stamina regen for taking unblocked damage? Boosted damage resistance after blocking?
I like the idea of feats that don't tie directly to a specific power, but tying them to stat proportions is downright punishing.
Fourth tier locks you out of using both of the dailies I most enjoy for my playstyle. Not objectively bad, but feels bad to me.
Not getting Shake It Off until level 77 leaves Tab a dead button for way too much of progression. Advise making the basic counter inherent to Dig In, with the feat either increasing its arc, its damage, or adding a knockdown to it.
Exception: Second tier is nice; gives two ways of boosting AoE that seem decently balanced against each other and don't lock you to as specific a combination of powers, for all that they don't fill a gap if you didn't slot any AoE to begin with.
In general, they don't seem to respect the order in which you get powers. Some sort of playstyle buff along with the power effect, especially for early feats, seems called for- Staying Power also causing all of your at-wills to always grant an additional 1% of your stamina would add up over time, and be thematically appropriate. Changing Shield Thrower to Aggressive Shield Tactics, giving a small, non-stacking magnitude increase to your next attack after blocking would help encourage a more aggressive, block-weaving playstyle.
Addendum:
The Vanguard class features are also lackluster. Enduring Warrior might as well not exist, Vigorous Strikes is a cool idea, but undertuned, Ferocious Reaction has antisynergy with Critical Deflection, and without mob ratings posted on the map, is impossible to gauge the effectiveness of. Anvil Of Challenge would be worth slotting more often if it also reduced the cooldown of Anvil of Doom by a couple of seconds. Shield Talent needs numbers. Combat Superiority is utterly uninspiring.
Dreadnought looks and feels good, but Vanguard just feels like the unwanted child that you're not quite sure what to do with.
Posted in the Guard Barracks Forum:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1246985/mod-16-tab-function-dig-in-testing
Did not want to double-post.
Please check it out and share your thoughts.
TLDR:
6) Conclusions
Shift-Block performed less than expected (43% instead of 50% of total HP).
Dig-In performed better than expected (80% instead of 75% up to ½ total HP).
7) Sources of Error/Discussion
Preview Mod 16 is notorious for scaling issues.
It is possible that the discrepancy between Tooltip and our test was associated with scaling.
Regardless, Shift-Block is underperforming. Dig-In appears to be working at or better then described.
The controversy remains.
Shift-Block does not appear to offer adequate protection from big hits.
The reallocation of HP from the Shift-Block to personal HP appears to lessen it’s usefulness in mid-level boss battles.
Tab-Dig-In seems redundant. It offers only marginally better protection than Shift-Block at the great cost of immobility.
I welcome constructive criticism on these test methods and conclusions.
Any ideas on better ways to test the utility of our future Shift and Tab functions?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
I agree with that. I assume at this point is too late to change Tab mechanic, make it at least meaningful skill. You could make it time dependent like block on live now, It's not perfect solution but atleast it makes it diferent from Shift-block and in theory allow to withstand heavy hits. As I mentioned somwhere before it could be charge by normal bloks.
If you genuinely like the feel and function of Critical Deflection and Combat Balance, then I urge you to build in, and reflect in the tooltip, an efficacy "floor" such that neither feat can operate at below half of its maximum efficacy, no matter how far the player's stats deviate from the 'ideal' stipulated in the feat.
I also urge you to doublecheck that normal damage resistance from Defense or from powers, are applying properly to Blocked damage(obviously, Combat Balance's resistance isn't supposed to, but some testing has indicated that even defense from gear is not applying to block HP).
The character is now level 76 and 13303 iL, so badly equipped with minimal resources. So progress is naturally harder than with a higher geared toon, but that is now the only difference I am seeing.
Success came as I learnt how to manage Vengeance and use it to my advantage by Seething before a fight to keep the damage buff available, because with such a weak character that extra 10% makes a big difference to performance.
As I have been playing I have been reflecting on the concerns of the community here and trying to think of some way to make the Tab function of the Vanguard more interesting.
Barbarians: Tab gives them a 360 defense, CC immunity, faster attacks and freedom to act as they like, but only affects them.
Paladins: Tab gives them 360 defense with 50% DR, modifies their shift shield, CC immunity, doubles aura effects and gives them freedom to move. (Paladins have a feat choice that ups the DR to 75% and lowers the cost or grants more threat but no longer blocks attacks).
Fighters: Tab needs to do something different to the other 2, but not lock the fighter down into one place.
Suggestion - modify the Vengeance mechanic to be Courage for Vanguards. The Vanguards lead from the front and inspire their allies with their courage.
Courage is gained by blocking attacks as per Vengeance and you can "Rally" to sacrifice Stamina for Courage.
When you press Tab you use Courage.
Courage should give you 75% DR and CC immunity, and allow you to move and provide some benefit to allies (eg a magnitude 50 shield that refreshes every second while Leadership is active).
This gives a consistent mechanic to Fighters (Vengeance/Courage builds the same way but has different applications), is thematic to the ideas of Fighters and can be tuned to address the wishes of the community (except for applying marks, no marks, seriously let it go) through feats or the benefit it provides.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I lost hope in Tank build for fighter before lanch sorry guys, i belive will take more time to fix/change it, at least the dps patch is fun...
For me the main weapon for a Guardian Fighter was always his SHIELD not the main hand, he should be build around the shield ability, Dreadnoght has this vibe, hes uses his shiled to build more dmg, really nice...
Vanguard dont, cant find a better way to say that just dont, looks like the main issue here is that the developers think the opposite and dont want the Shilded warrior to use he's shield so much, you see it could build small temp HP, reflect dmg with increased agro, could even build a rage charge to give control imunity and increased def (or temp hp) like barbarians, but we got the "dig in" move, tried the new feature to do dmg after the hit and it may be fun solo but not usefull when youre surrounded by heavy hitting mobs, and for solo DPS felt better...
Even the best heal/stamina recover ability got locked on DPS patch, "Into the fray" when feated is an amazing skill, heals, build rage and recover stamina) could be and universal skill haeling an recovering stamina, and for tank could give extra agro generation instead of rage for example...
Anyway there's a lot of diferent and good ideas for a new dig or dig replacement on this forum tread already, but i believe there's no time for implement before launch due bug hunt, maybe in a later patch but i really lost my hope on a better dig in or better tankability before next mod...
Funny thing is that 2 weeks ago i was trying to shering a player that was pessimist and said something like "i belive it will be up on time" and "now i'm trully happy that i ended saying "i hope that next weeks make you think more like me and not the opposite"...
For the Devs God Luck on game breaking Bugs Hunt and dont let the ideas here to be forgotten after launch to work on console build only.
For the other shiled users, stay steady dont give up, persistence and time can "sometimes" solve heavy issues...
https://media1.tenor.com/images/cf014aa260a7fb3288a9de15a6995f91/tenor.gif?itemid=12155328
i did some runs in preview...
Maybe I missed some note on patches,did the damage was reduced dramatically for all classes?i remember saying an adjustment to att wills/encounters/dailies ratio.
Anyway since my last visit,my damage was reduced by 400%,or to be more precise It took me 4x the time to do the content ,as I was used to in previous patches.half of it is caused by the companion nerf,but the other I have no explanation.
Our anvil used to be 1000 magnitude is 680 now?idk
Anyway current state vangard Gf does too little damage.
Dig In animation still is unresponsible.it is slow.When you kneel ,you are for 0,5 sec + totally vulnerable.
Dig In should interupt any and all powers.
It is one thing to test with out enemies in a controlled environment ,and another to activate Dig In while surrounded by hard hitting enemies.
FrontLine Surge should have its prone effect removed.It is useless now for pve,and for pvp its prone was removed mods ago
The feats do not offer variety,the contrary if you take one ,they lock you into further selection of powers encounters,att wills and gameplay.
example the ToI feat, "hit multiple enemies".So you have to use cleave.So if you use Tide of iron,you are locked to use Cleave and not any other att will.
2 Minutes hard cap in determination use is ridicoulous
Dreadnaught got all the love,even tanking feats/powers while it should never had to,it took hard stats,while poor Vanguard took a damage decrease,and an hp increase but it was ofset ny stamina hp nerf.
ITF should never been to dreadnaught.
VanGuard in its current state is slow,sluggish,with poor selection of feats,does no damage,gets not defense bonuses.I think most Gf tanks will be
In addition to making striker companions as bad as they have always been, the damage of most encounters was reduced by approximately 1/3rd (citing Anvil: 680/1000 = 0.68, or a 32% reduction).
In "exchange", enemy HP was reduced by some amount that I couldn't notice (because our stats were halved) and our multi target At-wills (ex: Cleave and Reave) were buffed from things like 15 magnitude to ... 25 magnitude.
Sure, it's a a 66% increase, but I think that says more about the previous base damage than it does the "buffs".
Bugs:
Seethe will drain ~5 stamina but continue to generate Vengeance despite the Stamina drain "lock".
Heavy Slash still says it is a magnitude 100 attack but is still an 80 magnitude attack. Seeing as 80 seems to be the "correct" adjusted damage, please fix the tooltip of the power accordingly.
Commander's Strike still places a 10% damage increasing debuff rather than 5% as stated in tooltip. If the power is supposed to be that way, update the tooltip to match, or make CStrike match the stated 5% on tooltip.
Into the Fray still grants its ridiculous bonus to Action Point gain.
Weight of Vengeance does not proc if you feat Bloody Reprise.
Landwaster refuses to work unless you feat Bloody Reprise.
Feedback:
I'm impressed at the updates on the class. I and many others thought the class would go live as according to the 4/5/2019 preview update, but seems as if there's some last week magic still at work. The following are my initial thoughts:
Momentum: It works, but having to run around to get the bonus Bull Charge damage is silly.
Either make the bonus Bull Charge damage activate without running around, or add in an additional effect after your charge (such as 5% bonus damage for 5 seconds).
Combat Superiority: It's great! It doesn't need any adjusting.
It gives a damage bonus encourages an actual rotation (Encounter -> At-will -> insert any "action prompt" feats that want you to mix your At-wills" like Heavy Slash -> Encounter -> Repeat).
Ricochet:
-The description needs to be reworded to be less confusing, as it might be confusing to figure out whether the "(x)%" less relative to the first hit, or to each subsequent hit. I think it would be easier to say the shield can hit a total of 4 enemies, with the second hit dealing 250 magnitude, 3rd dealing 150 magnitude, and fourth dealing 100 magnitude.
If you divide every hit by 1.0425 (17 STR * 0.025% = 4.25% damage bonus), you get base damage values of 350, 250, 150, and 100 magnitude respectively.
-While the feat is pretty hilarious to watch, the feat doesn't make sense in that slot of the DPS spec. In Tier 2, both options are dedicated to AoE damage, which means that players will effectively have a "wasted" feat in most boss fights.
Here are my suggestions to Ricochet:
-The feat is merged with Shieldthrower in the Vanguard tree, making Shield Throw serve as a ranged Enforced Threat (hits multiple targets, no longer stuns but generates bonus threat on targets hit). The feat could also be interesting if the stun was kept in as a Vanguard exclusive feat, as stunning multiple targets could make Shield Throw as a tool to use to engage safely/get breathing room.
- After merging Ricochet with Shieldthrower, move Weight of Vengeance replaces the now empty slot in the Tier 2 of the DPS path.
Crushing Blows: While the feat works, the visual effect of the rocks breaking from the ground is not a very "strong" indicator of the feat working. I initially didn't notice the feat working until I looked into the combat log.
Rolling Hatred: I think the effect should just be whenever you score a Critical hit, not requiring a Vengeance threshold.
I can see where the design comes from, where you'd combine with Bloody Reprise to ensure you stay above 50% stamina (great for a basic "hit enemies harder" build that doesn't require absorbing damage with shield). However, limiting it to 50% or above doesn't really help for the build that wants to avoid using shield/Seethe.
Heated and Steady Vengeance: Both of these class features are lackluster, I'd suggest combining both into one consolidated "get and keep Vengeance easier". For the empty class feature slot, I'd hope for another offensive class feature, as most of the options available are rather lacking.